And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 196: Lizzy McAlpine

Episode Date: November 18, 2024

Today’s rising star has gracefully navigated the crazy world that is viral fame. Influenced by Jazz, Folk, R&B, and everything in between, this guest is a young master at storytelling. After posting her original releases and covers to SoundCloud, YouTube, and later TikTok, her career exploded. A few albums and critically acclaimed collaborations later, this guest has proved that she belongs in the conversation for music’s brightest star, and is a leader in the modern singer-songwriter movement. And the writer is…Lizzy McAlpine! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to And The Writer Is with Ross Golan. There are millions of singers, thousands of artists, and only 40 songs per genre at a time. These are the stories of the hottest creatives, the most venerable legends, artists, songwriters, executives, and more. Follow our socials and share your music with the and the Writer is community. See you all there and now. Here's this week's episode. Today's podcast is brought to you by Ben the writer is. Banzo.

Built by musicians for musicians, Banzoogle is an all-in-one platform that makes it easy to build a stunning website, an online store for your music in minutes. All the features you need are already built in, including dozens of fully customizable templates, tools to sell your music and merch commission-free, commission-free crowdfunding and fan subscription features,

mailing lists, tools to grow your fan list, live support from their musician-friendly team seven days a week. Website plans start at just $8.29 a month, which includes hosting and your own free custom domain name. Our podcast listeners can go to banzugal.com to try it free for 30 days and use the promo code, ATWI, for Anne the writer is, to get 15% off the first year of any. subscription. That's banzogel.com promo code ATWI. ChartMetric is proud to sponsor the upcoming season of And the Writer is. As the go-to-sores for up-to-date global social streaming and audience data for artists

and music industry professionals, chart metrics strives to ensure everyone can have a successful career in music. They're easy to understand and powerful analytics on over-tenths. 10 million artists and 100 million tracks will help answer all of your questions from tracking your stats to discovering new talents. Throughout this season, we'll be showcasing chart metric data to reveal insights about our featured artists. Plan start as low as $10 a month. Learn more and get started today at chartmetric.com. Let me tell you about ASCAP. AsCAP is America's only creator-first performing rights organization and the only one that operates on a not-for-profit basis. They were founded by songwriters, composers, and publishers, and they're still governed by them today.

ASCAP's main job is to pay you royalties when songs you write are streamed, broadcast on radio, or TV, or played live. And they're so good at collecting royalties that in 2023, they distributed a record 1.7 billion dollars to ASCAP members. But they do other things too. In fact, they go to Washington all the time to advocate for your songwriter rights, which is more important than ever in the age of AI.

ASCAP represents over 975,000 members, including this episode's guest, Lizzie McAlpine. If you are a songwriter or composer, ASCAP is where you belong. Writers can join for free. Learn more at ASCAP.com forward slash why join. and follow at ASCAP on socials.

Welcome to End the Writer is. I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's Rising Star has gracefully navigated the crazy world that is viral fame, influenced by jazz folk, R&B, and everything in between this guest is a young master at storytelling. After she posted her original releases and covers

to SoundCloud, YouTube, and later TikTok, she blew the F up and has now become a leader in the modern, singer-songwriter movement. A few albums and critically acclaimed collaborations later, this guest has proved that she belongs in the conversation for music's brightest star. All the way from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, this writer is one of my faves, and the writer is Lizzie McAlpine.

Yay! Ooh! Okay. So here's a true story. So I was listening to your album, and it was just that it's the thing where, I I got a lot going on in my life. I got kids. It just was the album where it just kept going on.

And every time I'd be in my car, it'd be the album that would just go on. I just hadn't changed the album. I really enjoy the album. But my wife was really so surprised that I was listening to an album of somebody that is not, you know, it's like when you get to, you know, not that I'm that old, but like you tend to listen to a lot of music, you know, you grew up with or something. A lot of nostalgia. And here is like a new artist that I just kept listening to and listening. to and listening to. So I genuinely am a fan and I'm happier here. Oh, thank you so much. That's

a start. Wow. That said, let's tell people a little bit of your story. I'm somewhat familiar with it, but you were born. I was born, yes. That's cool. Tell me about your childhood a little bit. I grew up outside of Philly. I always just say Philly because no one ever knows where I'm from but I'm from this place called Lower Marion. Oh, like Kobe Bryant. Yeah, I went to his high school. The gym was named after him. I'm sure.

Yeah, I grew up there. I did, I was heavily musical, like, from a very young age. Why? Like, I don't know. It was fun. Were your parents in the music? No. My grandma had a piano at her house, and she was taking guitar lessons.

Your grandma was taking guitar lessons? Yeah, she, like, wanted to be musical. you know she tried her best um but i we were visiting her one time and i like picked up the guitar and started playing and she was like well i don't need to take lessons anymore like you're you're better than me and i've been taking lessons for like five years um so yeah i think she was the one that influenced me how old were you at that point guitar i picked up later but the piano i would we were visiting her since i was like born so and you just would just there's the piano i'm going to that pretty much and i would just like be hitting notes before i knew

how to play anything and then I would teach myself songs and would you teach yourself you know pop songs or are you teaching yourself I I think the first song that I learned how to play on piano was um love song by Sarah Borrellas oh nice yeah um when when did you decide to write songs that happened in sixth grade right when I hit middle school was a lot to write about apparently Did you write? Was it like journals first? Or was it just naturally like I'm going to write songs? Did you want to be like someone? I don't really remember like what the the goal behind writing songs was or even why I wanted to write songs. I think I was just like this is another way to express my creativity and this is fun.

But I was just writing about like boys who didn't notice me and all that stuff. Did people hear the music? Like did you play it for people in school? The early, early stuff, not really. But as I started writing more and got like a little bit more confident, I was like putting some of them on like SoundCloud. And I think I would show them to like my friends. At six, in like sixth seventh grade kind of thing.

I think I started posting on SoundCloud in like maybe eighth grade. So the first two years I was writing, I was kind of just like keeping it more low key. I was like, I don't really know what I'm going to do with this stuff. I'm just doing it for fun. What's the first song you wrote that you remember? It was called.

stuck in the moment. I do remember it actually. I don't remember how it goes. I don't remember how to play it, but I have the lyrics written down in one of my notebooks. You really don't remember it or you don't remember? No, I actually don't remember it. I wish I did. If I did, I would be pulling out a voice memo right now and playing a few, but I don't remember, unfortunately. How were you recording these songs? When you said you posted them to SoundCloud. I was just doing it on my phone, just on the voice memo app and then and then I found this like weird app where I could add like a harmony to like I could add another track but it wasn't garage band it was really it was on my phone it was very like old school I don't know what that was called but yeah it was very rudimentary in the beginning

there's like there's a an amazing naivete when you're that age where you feel like you know at least what I'm really happy for for myself is that no one could ever hear any songs that I did at that age. Yeah. It's about the same age that I started writing and like I had years of making mistakes. Those songs are they still available? The earliest songs, no, because I didn't put those anywhere, but I think, I don't know, a while ago I went through my sound cloud and like made a lot of things private because they should not be out in the world. No one should be able to listen to them. and I don't know if those were one of the things, but they probably should be, so maybe I should check after this.

When you were in high school, you know, all this is junior high, you start posting stuff. In high school, what was your musicality like? I was still writing more and just kind of doing it as often as possible to just get better. And I was also, I was doing theater, like heavily in theater. I was very much a theater kid, and I was doing choir. I was in the regular choir, and then I was in the choir that you had to audition for, and then I was in an a cappella group after school. So, like, I was really in the music scene at my high school.

What kind of musicals? What's your favorite musical? Like, just in general? Sure, I don't know. Oh, gosh, I have so many. I love, like, deep-cut musicals that no one, like, really knows if they're just, like, a casual musical fan. So there's this show called The Wild Party that I love.

There's this show called falsettos. Yeah, falsettos next to normal dog fight, like a lot of, a lot of that. Did you go to a lot of shows being in Philly and kind of close to New York? Yeah, every year my grandma would take us to see a show for my siblings' birthday. And so that started when I was like eight. And the first show I saw was Beauty and the Beast. And I was like, oh my God, this is amazing. I was also eight, so I was like terrified of the roof, the roof scene.

I was crying. I remember I cried. But yeah, every year we go, sometimes multiple times a year we would go. And it was always so inspiring. I was like, I want to be doing that. When I was first starting to write out here, I would say Sondheim was one of my influences. And I remember a specific well-known writer who just kind of like laughed at me and thought I was kidding. And thought I was saying, I was like, no, no, you don't understand.

Like when you're in a musical, if a musical is well-written, and it's its own world. Yeah. And so you go into this world, and it's usually well-crafted songs that have spent years of of workshopping to get to where it is. And you don't realize, like, if you listen to By-Ber-Burdy, you learn Rockabillion. And if you go to Fiddler, you learn Klesmer music. And if you do, you know, if you do Hamilton, you know hip-hop or backpack hip-hop.

If you know, you know, whatever it is, most of the great musicals, really are a moment and it like gives you a deep dive into a genre that has been well vetted. It really can be highly influential. Yeah. I mean, that definitely has some influence on my writing, like just in general, whether I was focusing on that or not. I think it was very self-supconscious. It just kind of seeped into my writing, I think, just by being around it.

Storytelling-wise. Yeah, I think, definitely. I mean, I can hear it. Other people have said that they hear that. I wasn't, like, planning on writing, like, that, but it just kind of happened. Do you want to act? Yes, definitely. I mean, to be honest, like, when I was younger, I never was like, I want to be a touring musician.

Like, I want to be singing my own songs. I was like, I want to be on Broadway. Yeah. That was, like, my dream as a kid. And so, yeah, it's definitely something that I still think about all the time. would it have to be something you write no not at all i mean after this uh album cycle is over i'm like hard pivoting to um film tv theater anything in that anything in that world i want to like live in other people's words just to take a break or yeah yeah i need a break yeah i mean you've it's so

crazy the last few years have just been wild yeah it's a lot of pressure yeah yeah and just making this album was like so long and hard and it kind of took a little bit of the joy out of it for me and I want to find that again and I know that I will find it again and I am starting to find it again but I think I need to like live a little bit before I can make more music. It's interesting this the how you know if you're younger you went to Berkeley which we'll get to but like you know the world just kind of opens up doors and you walk through them and you don't necessarily know. know which doors are going to open. It's like maybe if I didn't, had I gotten into Columbia or NYU for theater, maybe that's where I would have been instead of USC for music. But I got into USC for music. So that became the career path. That's literally exactly how it happens for me. It's not, it's not a knock on any of it. It's like if you're creative, you like doing, you know, like behind you are paintings that one of the producers here painted. It's like you just don't know,

like people who are creative just do art. And you just, I think a lot of people look at musicians as truth tellers. So there's actually like a better chance of you pivoting from there to acting than the other way around. I think actors are often perceived as professional liars. Even though they're supposed to be truth tellers, I think like nobody's like, oh, I don't like Merrill Streep because I didn't like one of her movies. But for some reason, people like identify a musician with their work. and they're like, oh, I don't like Taylor Swift. You're like, you don't know Taylor Swift.

You just know our music. You know what I mean? No offense to Taylor. And we all like Taylor. Don't get mad. All right. So, we're at Lower Marion, and you're doing like Acapella stuff after school,

so that's pretty funny. I was in SoCal vocals while Sarah Borellis was over at UCLA. So Acapella, do or die. There you go. Yeah, I also did it in college. Oh, you did? Yeah. Yeah.

At Berkeley? Yeah. Wait, so when you said you're doing music often, you know, junior high and high school and you start, are you, you know, you're going to tell your parents at some point like I'm going to pursue art. They probably knew it at that point. I think it was just a given. Like I never really, maybe this was stupid of me, but I like never had a backup plan. I was never like, oh, I'm actually going to like maybe if music doesn't work, like I'll do this. I was, I never was thinking about that.

And maybe that was stupid. But I was like, this is what I'm going to do. Like, I knew it already. Like, I knew that this is what I was going to do. And everyone around. One. What is, what's the sibling? Their name is Emery.

Okay. Yeah. All right. Okay. Does Emery do music? They're a dancer, actually. Okay. And we're the only two, like, even relatively musical people in our immediate family.

I think there were people on my dad's side of the family that, were musical. I think his dad played violin really well. And I think my mom can carry a tune, but she doesn't like singing because she's very shy. So I don't really know where it comes from, but we're the two musical people in the family. It just happens that. That's just the way worst. Has Emery been in any videos or anything like that? In music videos. For you? No. No. But they actually did design. They're also, they also are an artist. Oh, okay. And like a visual artist. and they designed some of my merch actually for my last album.

Okay, cool. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so you go to Berkeley, were you looking at other places? Yes, I was mostly looking at other places. I actually toured Berkeley and I was like, it's not really for me. But I was like, I'm going to apply anyway just to see what happens. But I applied to all other schools for acting.

I was going to go for like contemporary theater, not musical theater, because I joined a Facebook group of all the kids who were like applying to musical theater school. And I was like, okay, like, let me see the vibe. And immediately I was like, I can't go to school with these people for four years. Like I can't. So I pivoted. There's something that I always say about theater because it's like if you want drama, go to the theater. And there's nothing more dramatic than musical theater kids.

Especially in college too. And yeah, yeah. But I was like doing auditions. I did a bunch of pre-screens for all the schools. And then I got into Berkeley like before I even got that far in any of the auditions. And I was like, okay, I'm just going to go here. Because I think at that point I felt more confident in my music abilities because I've been doing it for longer.

And I was, I just like felt that that was like the right path to take. Don't they have a musical theater department? They're connected to Boston Conservatory, which has the theater. And while I was at Berkeley, I was like, need a transfer. Like I made the wrong decision, but I didn't, obviously. And then I ended up dropping out and it all worked out. But, but I think that was the right thing to do. I mean, it was what I did. So it was the right thing to do. It got me here. So putting out music at Berkeley's got, I've got to be a different thing because everyone at Berkeley feels like they're putting out some

music. Is it competitive or is it supportive? It didn't really feel competitive to me in my friend group and the circle that I was in. We all were like kind of collaborating. So like the stuff that I was putting out, I was working on with my friends and it felt like really fun. And I was kind of just experimenting at that time in my music career. And that's why the songs that I released at Berkeley, like they're not on streaming platforms anymore because it was just a, I was just figuring myself out. And I don't think that that really represents who I am anymore. But it was very fun. And we were all having a great time together. You wrote your first studio album in Spain? Is that right? Part of it, most of it, yeah. Did you record it there? No, we, so I worked with Philip Etherington, who was also at Berkeley

when I was at Berkeley, and we recorded the whole album in his, like, tiny apartment in Boston in between, like I think, oh my God, I haven't thought about this in so long, so I might get some details wrong, but I think we recorded the first single before I left, and then I went to Spain and I wrote like a bunch of new songs, and then I came back and we finished the whole album. Did you travel to Spain with a guitar? Or did you get a guitar there? Yes. Yes. I did you immerse yourself into the Spanish culture, or were you so obsessed with writing music that you did that mostly? I mean, I was kind of miserable, if I'm being honest. Like I was doing I was doing a minor there, like, of, like, music tech, basically.

So I was just not having fun in my classes. I was like, I don't want to be doing this. I had to learn how to use pro tools. And I was like, I don't care about this. And I don't know how to use this. And it doesn't make any sense to me. And I was having. Glad that you know a little bit about it or you still don't care.

I don't really care. And other people do it for me and that, whatever. That's the one thing where I'm like, I don't need to be in control. Because it doesn't make any sense to me. But, yeah, I was doing that. all that stuff and it was just not the classes weren't fun and then I like really didn't I had like three friends and and I was also going through a breakup it was just like a weird time in my life and and I was it was very lonely and isolating there so I was writing a lot I was just like in my room writing a lot

yeah it's interesting that like when you said the sixth grade thing you're like yeah there's a lot to write about in sixth grade and then you mentioned like the boys that like didn't and then you're like well you know here you are in Spain like yeah 10 years later and still like like that draws the same sort of thing. Yeah. When things are going well, do you find things to write about? It depends on,

it depends, I think. So much of yourself seems very autobiographical. It is. I mean, I can't write anything that has not happened to me. So it is all about what's happening in my life. And I, really have only written like sad songs basically to put it into a general category for like my

whole life career basically it's just like what has felt the best to me it's catharsis too and you're writing songs and it's like it's hard to explain to people who don't get it they're like no no no I need to write for sanity and it becomes like a way to in a way edit down an emotion to three minutes yeah it's like therapy basically um processing things in real time. You have some co-writes, but obviously most of it's stuff you write by yourself. Why do you enjoy writing with other people? Again, it depends.

Sometimes. I think when I first moved here specifically, I was just like thrown into a bunch of co-writing sessions because that's just like how it goes here. And I really did not like them. a lot of them. But there are a few co-writing sessions and people that I've worked with that have just made it feel so easy and open. And those are the people that I like writing with.

And when I find someone like that, I don't do co-writing sessions like really any anymore at all. Because I just like, I'm very specific about who I want to write with. And if I'll only write with someone if I like really admire. their work or them as a person or I want to I feel like we could create something really special and I'm grateful that I'm not in a position anymore where I have to be like going out and doing co-writing sessions with random people that I've never met before you know when you you graduated a really interesting time and it's like obviously or not graduate yeah I did not graduate you leave you leave Berkeley an interesting time yes things are taking off career wise and whatnot

but it's also like right before, right before COVID, right? Yeah, I left the day. So, yeah, the day that they announced that Berkeley was going to be online, my dad also passed away the same day. Oh, wow. And then, yeah, COVID was happening. And then I left, I went home and. And then it was, and I did the rest of the semester online.

But it was like, and then also my career was, I was starting to post covers on Instagram. and that was like really doing something for my career apparently and all those things at the same time were like so insane to try to like process and balance and like the juxtaposition of the feelings in that moment was like so so wild have you process any of that I think I think so I'm start I mean I've it's a lifelong thing I think but yeah I mean I'm in things I mean I'm in therapy every week. Vanessa. Shout out to Vanessa. It's so weird. I feel like right now is the first time when I'm starting to realize what the pandemic was. But, you know, that timing of three or four things all at once for you is just a wild transition. Yeah. It was crazy. Do you write yourself

out of that? You know, it's like here it's like, I'm not going back to school. A father passed away. I can't go back to school. Everybody shut down. I could see like doing nothing or I could see like diving all the way in heavy on writing. I don't really remember if I was writing that much, but I was like finishing my first album at the time. We like weren't quite finished when COVID happened. So we still had like some remote stuff to do. This was stuff that you were recording while you were before you were at Berkeley. I guess I don't really know the business, the business of, I thought you were originally distributed through like AWOL. Yes, I was.

So that you're like self-making this album, correct? Yeah. So when you're saying we were doing this album. Me and Philip. Right. Yeah. So you're finishing the album that you wrote half of in Spain. Yeah.

Then all this shit goes down. Yeah. And then you have to finish the album. Yeah. I think I remember like the last song that we were recording, I like recorded in my bathroom at home like after COVID had happened and then I just like sent the stems to fill up which song was that where do I go so you know how to you know how to record yeah I know how to use logic I mean when I was recording my I mean the soundcloud phase of my life which I'm not really in anymore

but when I was like deep in it in like middle school high school I taught myself how to use garage band and then I found logic and then it was just like a natural step so I know how to use logic um because of that so it was easy i wasn't like helpless um you know you finished the album and how soon after that does it you know how do you get from i finish an album the world's been shut down to how do you get to awall how do you get to your team how do you develop like who developed a team in the middle of covid how did that happen yeah so i we finished the album like early summer I think or I don't know it came out in August and and when it came out it's through AWOL at this time so yeah but it was not like I wasn't like signed to AWOL it was like

you went to the AWOL website and like signed up myself like I did it myself and then I like put in all the information and they just distributed it like I wasn't working with AWOL I was just like this is a way to put the music out but I had a manager at that point because I had posted an Instagram video while I was in Spain that like went did pretty well and he saw it and he at the time managed like Bruno major and Eloise and I was fans of both of them and he emailed me and he was like I'd love to like get like catch up and at the time I had a manager from Berkeley so it wasn't like a real manager and um after that didn't work out then Sam and I started working together and um so at at the time the album was coming out, he was my manager.

So I wasn't like alone doing this, which would have been so scary and I would not have known what to do at all. But yeah, so I had Sam and then I had just AWOL, the distributor. Well, this, you know, you start releasing songs and they, you know, when you have, I know, I know a lot of people release songs where it gets, you know, on, on these distribution channels that have 10,000 streams, you know. 50,000 streams, and maybe they have like a couple thousand monthly listeners, but they don't have like millions of streams. And right off the bat, when you first release stuff with them,

it seems like, I guess I don't know the timing of it, but it seems like it reacted pretty quickly. How did people discover? I don't really remember. I do save like all of my Spotify for artists like yearly wrapped every year. And I remember, actually let me see if I can find it because I have the first one from when I put out my first album like a while ago it's it's just pretty crazy you've tens of millions of streams yeah I mean yeah it definitely didn't it took it took it was not overnight you know some of that's retro actor definitely um but yeah so in 2018 i had only released like a little album from like when I made in high school it's not I took it off of streaming platforms like it's, I did not like it. I had, I had, um,

7,000 streams and 419 fans. And then the next year after, I don't know what this was after, because I, I think I put out the album in 2020, but somehow, oh, I think it was just the singles, like apple pie, pancakes for dinner, I think, like did something for me. Um, I had 34,000 listeners. and 110,000 streams. I think that might have been from pancakes for dinner, but I don't really remember. This is kind of all the blur. And then in 2020,

after I put the album out, I had 2.3 million listeners and 14.7 million streams. Yeah, crazy. Which is like, what the heck? So fast. That's insane, actually. I don't like really look at this stuff anymore.

Our good friends at Chartmetric have all the data you need to power your music career From playlist placements to stream counts to follower demographics and many more. It's never been easier to understand how your artists fit in the music industry and how they can grow. Charm metric does the work for you, providing actionable insights and visuals on their up-to-date global data that covers over 10 million artists and 100 million songs. So there's no math required.

Use it to find out things about your favorite artists and any of the artists and writers on this podcast. Plans start as low as $10 a month. Learn more and get started today at chartmetric.com. Today's podcast is brought to you by Ban Zougal. Built by musicians for musicians, Ban Zougal is an all-in-one platform that makes it easy to build a stunning website, an online store for your music in minutes. All the features you need are already built in,

including dozens of fully customizable templates, tools to sell your music and merch, commission-free, commission-free crowdfunding, and fan subscription features, mailing lists, tools to grow your fan list, live support from their musician-friendly team seven days a week. Website plans start at just $8.29 a month, which includes hosting and your own free custom domain name.

Our podcast listeners can go to banzugal.com to try it free for 30 days and use the promo code ATWI for, and the writer is, to get 15% off the first year of any subscription. That's banzugal.com promo code ATWI. If you're a songwriter or composer, you have to join a performing rights organization or PRO. Performance royalties are an essential part of your income. If not, your only income. ASCAP is America's first PRO and the only one that operates on a not-for-profit basis,

which means the money they collect goes to their songwriters, composers, and music publishers, not outside investors, not big corporations. And ASCAP supports you in a lot of different ways. even beyond the royalties. They run workshops, panels, and networking events all the time. For more information on that, check out askappexperience.com. They've got tons of resources on their website to help you learn about the music industry. They've even got a wellness program.

I really respect that ASCAP is a true democracy. ASCAP members elect their board of directors, and the board is made up of music writers and publishers like you. They've got over 975,000 members, including our guest, Lizzie McAlpine. Writers can join for free. Learn more at askap.com forward slash why join and follow at ASCAP on socials. Yeah, it's hard to fathom what that those numbers are too. When you think that that would be, you know, the sixth largest city in the United States of everybody,

if everybody there was following you. Yeah, that's wild. And like when you think, you know, the 14 million streams or whatever. And that's at that point. Now you have, you know, it's like, you think Seelings has like almost half a billion or more. It's getting close, I think. That's like everybody in the United States choosing to listen to it is more than that. You know, it's like everybody in North America choosing to listen to your song.

It's hard to fathom that. Yeah. When after the first album comes out and you see those numbers moving. did you start feeling were you starting to feel pressure or is it exciting? I don't think that I have ever felt pressure from like anyone except for myself. And even then like I don't I'm not the kind of person that's going to like be like, okay, I made this album this way.

Now I have to make something else that's exactly like this because that's what people like. That will never be me. because I'm going to make what I want to make in the moment and people are going to have to deal with it. And so I think after the first album came out, I was like, okay, this was really cool. I want to start working on my second project. And I was kind of thinking that it would be going in a more like indie direction. Honestly, I thought that five seconds flat would be like closer to this last album that I put out.

But it ended up being more experimental and more pop focus. and that was fun at the time. I was just really an experiment. I think that the sound that I am closest to, like actually authentically, is the first album and the third album that I just put out. But the second album was kind of just like an experiment. And it was great and it was fun and I had a lot of fun making it. And I do really like it.

But yeah, I was just kind of just like experimenting. And then after that album started doing really well because of ceilings, that's when I like kind of started to be like, okay, well, maybe I need to make something like this because like this is what people respond to, apparently. But that was a fleeting thought. And then I was like, I don't care. I'm going to do whatever I want to do. It's also really, really hard to write the same song twice and have it still be unique. Yeah. And also it's like I'm always at a different point in my life when I'm making all these albums. I've been at different periods of my life. and I've had different, I've learned different things in between making all these albums.

So obviously I'm going to be a different person when I'm making all of them. And it just, yeah, it just feels like. Why did this album, why was this so hard to make? So many things just like popped up at every, like, there were so many obstacles that had to jump over or go around. and like what like let me think about from the beginning let me go through the timeline well i started making this record like pretty soon after five seconds black came out i think it was like maybe july of of 22 and or yeah 22 i don't know time is really weird i don't like know any timing anymore so i could be like so off i know we started in and

July. And I was, I started it with Philip again, who I had done my first two albums with. And we did a couple sessions and then months went by and it was kind of like, okay, I don't think that this is really going to be working out just because of the timing that we are both at in our lives. Like, it doesn't feel like there's the time for this right now. And he was like, that's, yeah, yeah, I don't really like have the space for this right now. And I was like, that's fine. So, then I pivoted. That was in like September. And then there were a lot of months in between like all of these changes where like I was either touring or like just waiting for some someone to come along. And and after I, Philip and I stopped working together, I found Ryan who was friends with Philip. We were all

friends before and he was like, I can kind of like we can start making this album. And so we did that. And then we're working on that for like nine months. And then that wasn't really feeling like authentic to me. Like we were almost done with the album. And then I just like something was just not right and not clicking in the music for me. And I didn't know what it was. And it didn't feel like the album that I was supposed to make yet. And so I kind of pivoted again. And then I found this band. that I ended up working with. And we were re-recorded most of the album with them. We kept some of the stuff that Ryan and I did because it was really good.

But it was a very hard process. Like those two weeks were probably the hardest part of this entire thing because I had these songs, these versions of these songs that I've been listening to for so long now that Ryan and I did together. And I was like, I want to change. them. But then some of them I was like, like, I kind of like them. And it was like hard to balance. Like, I was feeling guilty. I was like, well, we came here to redo these songs. And now I like the originals, like on some of them. And it was a lot of like trust the process. And I'm like not good

at that. And also we were just doing it in a completely different way than I'd ever made an album before. Like we were tracking everything in the room together at the same time. We were not mixing as we went like normally Philip and I would be like producing and mixing so I'd leave with the finished bounce that like sounded really good and that was not the case when with the band we were just like recording and then we would come in the next day and listen to it back and I'd be like oh my god I know exactly what I know should happen but I can't make it happen yet because we're still like in the middle of it so it was really like control letting go I was like I need to trust the process and trust that it will sound good and it did but then like after that I switched management again

which was like a whole thing and then and then like we had to mix the album and we were like running up against the deadline and we did not make the deadline and we had one mixer and then we pivoted to another mixer and then he was like in another country for a week and so it was just like there were it just felt like so many things were stacked against me in the making of this album but I just kind of I had to just trust that it would workout and it did and I'm really so happy with the way that it turned out and I think that it all happened literally made you older literally it aged me yeah um yeah but I think it all happened for the right re like it was all happening for a reason do the next album now that you've seen the result

of the the newest way of doing it would you consider recording the next album like you did this most recent album or would you want to go back? I don't, I think I ever really want to go back. I think. Just you'll, or will you feel more comfortable trusting the process knowing that in the end it works out? I think so. Yeah, I think the second time around would be, would be easier on me mentally.

But yeah, I think if I was going to make another album, it would be similar to that process that we just did because it, like, this music that I made is just, it just feels like the music that I was always meant to make and the way that I was always meant to make it in collaboration with other people and um the old process just didn't really feel that like that I got I'm pretty in tune with how albums are made and I don't think that I would not have known that they were done in totally different fashion you know it just so I mean I think that's what's interesting it's like to you it means something but to the rest of the world it doesn't like sound like that because you sound like you telling your you know what i mean like that's who you're

focused on even when you're like a discerning individual in the business you're still not listening to it and being like man this sounds like they went back and forth at different techniques and different kinds oh well yeah i mean you don't hear any of that that i was worried about that i was like it needs to sound cohesive um it does because you're on it yeah and that's what everyone around me was saying they were like it's you so it's going to during these last you know five five years in the business, do you have any social life? I'm finding it, honestly. I don't know. It's hard. I also just like went through a breakup and I was kind of like just, I didn't have a life before we started dating and then I was just like

integrated into his life. And now I'm like, I need, I mean, that's the reason we broke up. I was like, I need to know that I can do, I need to know myself. I need to know that I can have a life on my own. And I want that. And I miss that even though I like don't really think I've ever had a, I mean, now I'm like, I have a stable home. I like, I'm not moving from apartment department anymore. I have like people here.

And I was like, I like, I like, I like California. Now I do. Yeah. It was lonely and isolating at first because I didn't have a community. And I was jumping from apartment to apartment. But now I feel like I found people. I found this band. I found Molly, my manager.

And it just feels like way better now. And I'm starting to kind of rebuild my life. Yeah, yeah. Which feels really fun. I'm sure. You've had so many amazing, going back to music, collaborations outside of your albums. And what's interesting is like, when I think of collaborations five years ago, 10 years ago, it's like it'd be David Getta featuring

Lizzie McAlpine. It wouldn't be like there's not like, you know, and then again, if it were the 80s, it would be straight up like a duet. Now it's like featuring and all this stuff. But your relationships are amazing. I mean, Jacob Collier and Phineas, who's been on this podcast and Noah who's been on this podcast. and like, you know, it's just amazing the people that, Nile, who were friends with,

like, you've been able to be, you know, connected to all these people. Are they reaching out to you? Or is there like this giant text chain of cool musicians where it's like, who wants in? Definitely not that. That'd be so rad. That would be sick. Just like a hundred like of the sickest artists just be like, I got this song, who wants on? It's like, I'm in.

That's hilarious. But no. I'm so rooting for it though. Jacob Collier and Phineas were different because I mean, Phineas was different. I reached out to him on Instagram and I was like, I have this song. Do you want to be on it?

He was like, sure. Actually, he was like, fuck yeah, that's what he said. He's the best. He's like literally like very talented musician and very smart individual. He's a lot of the things. Yeah, and he really like championed for me when, I mean, he was on my second album before

Seelings blew up and he was like really championing me in my like early stages of my career and I just I'm very grateful. How did the Jacob Collier one come up? I think I covered one of his songs on Instagram during the pandemic. It's a hard song to cover, whatever it was if it's his. Yeah, it was, I mean, it's like seven eight. seven 14. No, no, I picked an easier one.

I couldn't do it a harder one. But yeah, and then we became friends. And then I, um, I, just wanted his harmonies on my song and he said yes how about the Noah um I think noah reached out to my team actually I think so red yeah um what's next uh finishing this tour uh and then pivoting what do you do for if if there's a sophomore at berkeley who has been writing songs through high school and is at Berkeley and has something going on what's advice you give for somebody that could actually break into the business in 2024 i don't know about like i mean i think

it was a little bit different not that not by much but just the online culture i think was a little bit different like deep in the pandemic when i was kind of breaking out of i was in my career but i think I think it's just a little bit more ruthless now than what I remember it being. But honestly, like, I say all the time just be yourself. And I think it's so cliche and it's so, but it's like really the only thing that matters because that's what makes you unique and that's what makes you you and no one else is going to be like you. And if you try to be like anyone else, it's just is not going to fall flat because you're not being yourself and you're not being authentic. I think authenticity is like the most important thing that you can ever do if you want to have a career of music.

I think one of the hard parts. Or I mean, I mean, anything, but one of the hard parts is, you know, your authentic self is exciting to other humans. Yeah. And it wasn't something you could have predicted that how much people like to your authentic self. Yeah. I think the hard part is that not everybody's authentic self will put them in the same. seat that you're currently in. And that's the part that I think is a tough truth, but shouldn't mean that you shouldn't

pursue that honesty. Well, I think everyone has their own path and everyone, if you are authentic to yourself, you will find the path that's right for you. Yeah, no doubt. I think. We're going to the next segment, which is a five for five. I'm going to just list five things and tell me what comes off the top of your head. Okay.

We're going to go with Philly. Home. Okay. Is this like a word association game? It can be. There really aren't rules. Do you want one word? Do you want like a story?

Do you want a sentence? We've had people do like diatribs. We've had people say one word. So really there are no rules. But we'll go with Berkeley. I'm not good at word association games. We're going to do Berkeley next. Okay.

Community. We'll go with ceilings. Plaster. I don't know. The next lyric. That's so literal. I don't know. Your mom?

Strong. I don't know. This is weird. And we'll go with older. When I think of old, I mean, I think it's the core of the album. Well, thanks for doing the podcast. Thanks. I literally, like, I was excited when this album came out because there's a really cool movement going on.

And when my friends say there's, you know, when you hear people say that there's not any good music out, one, it makes you sound old as shit. So like put in some effort. Number two is like, they're totally wrong. This is an incredible era of music in all genres. But there's like specifically this. what I like about what you know the U's and the NOAAs

that are going on right now is like the choruses are singable and it's not just this diary for the sake of just like saying just being so wordy for being wordy I think they both like I think you have this

grasp on composition that is really good even if you're not listening to the meaning of the lyrics which I think is really important to get someone to listen to the meaning of the lyrics. You know? And you're just doing it really well. And I'm just excited that you're doing the thing that you're doing.

And I hope that you don't take a break for too long. Well, I'm already writing. I'm already writing. I kind of think you're full of shit too. No, I definitely am not. But I have. No, I think you're going to do those things. And I think that there's no way that somebody, there's no, but there's nobody.

Nobody has been writing music since they were in sixth grade. And then as, you know, is like, I can stop. I, I, there are people who can. I know. I mean, I was just so burnt out. I just need some new life experiences. Yes. Which I'm getting currently and I'm writing about them.

So. Yeah. You're never, you're never. You can hard pivot by, is, is like, adding to what you're currently doing. And maybe hard pivot means you're not on tour next year. but it definitely there's no way that you're like I know we're just meeting

but it won't be too long but I'm doing other things first fair enough yeah all right well when you're done then you'll come back yeah we'll do this next one great there you go this episode is produced by Joe London

mega house management and myself see you all next week I'm Ross Golan signing off