And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 197: Jeff Gitty

Episode Date: November 25, 2024

Today’s guest became hooked on music after he found a guitar in the trash, and taught himself how to play. This DIY attitude and fascination with music landed him in the Berklee College of Music where he honed his writing, production, and instrumental skills. After mastering the guitar and becoming immersed in record production, he started to tour and record with legendary artists such as Lauryn Hill, Alicia Keys, J. Cole, H.E.R., Mac Miller, and Anderson .Paak. One thing led to another, and our guest found himself producing and writing on massive records, becoming the go-to guitarist for stars, and locking in six Grammy nominations over the years. His story proves that passion and perseverance can take you far in the music industry. And The Writer Is…Jeff “Gitty” Gitelman! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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and get started today at chartmetric.com. Welcome to And The Writer is. I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's top 10 Billboard producer, True Story, became hooked down music after he found a guitar in the trash, and then taught himself how to play it, and then eventually led himself to study at Berkeley School of Music, where he honed his skills, which led to recording and touring with legendary artists such as Lauren Hill and Alicia Keys, which led him to producing and writing for a variety of big records, which led him to Grammy nominations. This immigrant may be an impressive musician, but he's also a good husband and dad. And he is my friend, and the writer is Jeff Giddy Gittleman. Welcome to And the Writer is, my friend. Wow, I just got nervous. That was quite the introduction. Wow, I have a lot to live up to.

I see you at the farmer's market, so we are neighbors. Yes, yes. I love it. It's great. I know that you fancy. yourself not necessarily an Angelino because you probably think of yourself more as a New Yorker. Not really at this point. I spend most of my life on the East Coast, but man, I really, I do love the city. And, you know, I'm not going to lie to you, Ross, when I first started coming out here,

I used to hate it here, man. Like, I used to, there's a New Yorker, be like, get me the... But don't New Yorkers hate everywhere except for New York? They hate New York, but they tell everyone they love it. They're like, oh, this ain't New York. Then they go to New York and they complain about I'm not going to lie to you. Yes, because I don't like New York. And I live there for years. And I'm probably because I hate it. No, I hate it. But it was just so different. L.A. is so different and such a different pace. I used to not like a hair. But I love it here, man. I love the creative community above all. I love that there's a, it's tangible here. The business is set up. Somebody could grow up, a kid could grow up and they, oh, I want to be an actress. And they, it's

tangible. They could run into an actress at the farmer's market, how we do. And it's real versus if you grow up somewhere in Columbus, Ohio, or something like that. It's like, I want to be, you know, an actress. Oh, keep dreaming. So I love this place here, man. It's like, and yeah, the business is here, the creative community is here. The farmer's markets are here. When we first started working together, you, you know, you looked like a normal person, and now you look like you are a weightlifter or you're like you're like a model or something that's another why are you what why are you what why are you what why are you what are you what are you trying to do to us man well it's funny because that the the session that we had that was my um that was my week one

and uh it was actually my day two and it was castle at the session who was informing me which is another great thing i love i love writing with people who have the same it love being a dad who love being, you know what I mean, healthy? It's like we inspire each other. But yeah, man, I just want to live a long time as long as I can write as many songs, you know, be there for my daughter. I was a little older when I had her, so I'm going to be a little older when she's growing up. And so I need to be around, man, for a few more decades. Do you miss cake? No, because I make my own ice cream now. I make my own milk, my own almond milk, which then I make my own ice cream out of coconut cream

and dates instead of sugar and so I eat a pint of chocolate ice cream a day and it's incredible. The one good thing about Instagram, the Instagram the algorithm really got me. When I started getting to the healthy thing, all instead of guitars

and half-naked women now, it's all healthy you know, the algorithm is just giving me all healthy recipes. Healthy food and half-naked dudes. Yes, exactly. Perfect. Okay, so let's tell a little bit of your musical journey. Well, let's start with when you were born.

You weren't even born an American citizen. Yes. To parents that are also not American citizen. Where were you born? I was born in Moldavia. It's right near Ukraine. The capital of Moldavia is Kishinov. It's right near Romania, Bulgaria.

Yeah, I grew up. Bro, I don't even know what the 80s are. I only know what the 80s are when I came here to learn. you know, the culture because I missed, I lived through the 80s, but I missed the whole thing in America. I didn't know it. I didn't listen to any American music. The only thing I ever heard before I got to America was I, I love the Beatles. I fell in love with the Beatles. And so I heard a little bit of Led Zeppelin, but other than that, I've never heard any other music that's not Russian. Was English spoken in your house? Not at all. Not at all.

So when you think of your past, your first eight years, do you think of it in English? That's interesting. It's really hard for me to remember a lot, my first nine years. But yeah, it was a really crazy place, man. It was like, you know, communism, you know, really a lot of racism. And I have a, well, I would, I know we're going to get into it, man. I know we're going to get into it, but I would love to start here by saying that I've had a very different Jewish experience than a lot of my American friends, my Jewish American friends. And growing up Jewish in Moldavia in the 80s is very different.

different. How so? Well, we were the minority. You know what I mean? And like, I'll never forget when I came to Hollywood. People are like, oh, you're Jewish. You're going to do fine. And it's so crazy to think that my first, I was afraid to tell people I was Jewish my first nine years of my life. Like, I've never been to a synagogue. You know, I was bullied for being Jewish. We were a minority and we like had to like really stick together. And yeah, I don't know how else to explain it. Besides, It's, yeah, we were really, it was dangerous for us. We had to, you know what I mean? It was just.

Why did your parents? That's why we were refugees and we left because of being Jewish in a place like that. Were your grandparents from there? Yeah, we were all there. We all just went together. We all got on a plane and all went together. No what I mean? Like, are they survivors of the Holocaust?

Absolutely. Absolutely. I got to, my grandma's still alive. She'd just turned 97. Last year, I really, I went with a camera crew, much like this, a friend, and we went to her apartment in New Haven, Connecticut, and I interviewed her, and I got her whole Holocaust story. I mean, her Holocaust story is, I could curse. It's crazy. It's fucking crazy, you know, and it just reminded me of my purpose. And she did all this. What's that? What was her story like? Oh, you know, she was maybe like, I got to go back maybe 13, 14 years old, and her, you know, she carried her brother with her mother through like 20, 30 miles

with no food, no bread. And like she read basically her little brother who was like five years old. She carried him and through the field they had to run away. And, you know, my grandmother, his mom and daughter got killed. He was a war.

He came back. They said, oh, this is what happened. Like they both, your sister and your mother died and your mother died protecting your sister and stuff like that. Yeah, it was, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's really crazy. Yeah, I mean, my, my family shares a similar story except for they, they got out, you know, you know, the late 30s, early 40s, depending on if they, they got out, they survived.

And they came here. No, they went, they moved to Nicaragua, the U.S. wouldn't let him juice. Wow. I think there's like this idea of like, well, why, um, I think people, would ask, you know, why wouldn't you just leave? And you're like, well, part of it was because you couldn't get visas to get out. Yeah. So if you were there, if you were originally getting a visa to get out, they purposely made it difficult to get visas.

Brother, in 19, you know, left in 1991. It took us two years to wait for that fucking visa, bro. Yeah. It took us two years. My aunt had to go and get it started two years prior. and we waited around it. And I was the seven-year-old and my parents were like, okay, don't tell anybody. But in two years, we're going to be leaving, going to America.

Yeah. And so are we leaving yet? No. Are we leaving yet? Is it time to go? No. No. Are we there yet?

Are we going to America? No, not yet. And then finally, it's like, wow, don't tell anybody, don't tell anybody, don't tell anybody, still don't tell anybody, pack up in the middle of the night, go on a train to a boat to a plane and you land you're like what just happened yeah that's all remember yeah the 91 landing in how's your russian now it's so-and-so it's pretty good no it's pretty good i could still yeah i can still speak english yeah no my parents speak very good english do you have brothers and sisters no brother and sisters um so you really are the american dream i really think so man and

My mother's an American dream, dude. I came, I got, you know, it's so crazy. I just keep coming back to it, like, what makes me the way I am and to what makes me who I'm not and what makes me who I am. And I just keep coming back to this story of, like, coming back. And, you know, my mother, she was a, in Russia, there was no, like, upper class or lower class. Everybody's on the same thing unless you're, you know, affiliated with some kind of organism,

organized crime system. Yeah, or you're a politician. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah. And then... Is that something that people... Oh, yeah. There's a couple of musicians that we can talk about off-camera

that have issues where they can't really talk about their parents because their parents are immigrants still in a country where... Anybody from Russia who's not dirt poor, you could fill in the blanks. You could just assume where it's... You know what I mean? Where it's coming from. Because it's not that we were homeless dirt poor,

but very bare minimum. Very bare minimum. If somebody does not live in a one-bedroom apartment or if they have a car, anything that's not, they're not taking the bus or living out. Something else is going on. And so when we came, my mother, she was a designer. She was like a fashion designer, really specializing the shoes. And when we came, she couldn't find any work.

My dad went to work as an engineer immediately, but my mom couldn't find work. So she started, you know, she was a nanny. And she was like a custodium at a play, at some kind of a store. I just remember picking her up with my dad and I was nine and she was vacuuming floors, you know? And then two years later she just kept drawing and drawing and drawing and drawing and then like we were in Connecticut and Manhattan is an hour and a half away and she went and she would go for all these job interviews.

And in my mind I'm like, Mom, like I don't know, it's a different culture here, the different fashion, like it's a NBA, like basketball, everybody, the shoes here are all influenced by basketball. It was the height of the Jordan era. I was like, mom, really like, so she kept drawing and drawing and then going on these interviews and she got the job working with Fila and then within three years or maybe five, but worked her way up to be the vice president of Fila. She designed the Grant Hills. Yeah, so you probably know because you're, yeah. So the grant, my mom designed the Grant Hills shoes. And so she, I've seen her go from being a nanny and not there's anything wrong

with taking care of kids because I love my nanny. I wouldn't let her go for anything. But she went from vacuuming floors and being custodian to being a vice president. There's a, one of the, I think it was the third biggest shoe company at the time. So I've seen her work her ass off and she would take the train to Metro North every day to an hour and a half, hour and 45, that way, hour 45 there. So she's, she would take her ass off. And she would take the train to Metro North every day. She wasn't even around that much when I was in middle school and high school because she was just always in New York going back and forth. And I've seen her work her way up. And so, you know, what excuse do I have?

No. Not. Well, you know, it got tough because everybody's parents took them to basketball practice. And I didn't, I didn't, I had to, like, bum rides to basketball practice. So we got to the point where. He had free shoes, though. Yo, when I tell you, I looked. That's why I got.

Not all my friends. See, the problem was when we first moved, I moved to Hamlin, Connecticut, is inner city. This is why people are like, I don't understand you're from Russia. Why do you talk the way you are? Why do you talk in such vernacular? And I'm like, this is how I learn how to speak English, guys. I learn how to speak English in an inner city listening to rap music.

This is what I used to write out snoop dog lyrics, and that's how I learned English by studying the shit, you know? And so there in the inner city, when my mom got the job, I was the most, what? Giving people, you want some shoes? Giving all the kids' shoes, people are like, no, this is not real. You're bringing us like Grant Hills right now. As soon as we got some money, parents are like, we're getting a house in the suburbs, moving school systems. As soon as I got there, first day, I'm thinking I'm doing something showing up in.

Head to toe. I'm not just talking about shoes. Head to toe, Fila, like the craziest, that normally, we're doing. would like really impress a seventh grader, you know? Yeah. No, not in the suburbs. The first day of seventh grade was just so traumatic. And that's why I got the nickname, Feeler Boy, because people were like, what the fuck is this

guy, who is this kid? Who is this kid? And yeah, so, yeah, it was a one-time cultural shock to come here from Russia to come to, you know, America and like, see the cars, the music. like the clothes, the slang. I'm like trying to learn English and people are saying a whole other thing. And I'm like, wait, what? What are you saying?

Fat? That's fat? Like, oh, that's cool. I remember being like, what is cool? Like, like, freezing like, no, man, it means like it's good. And then, but the craziest shock wasn't even that. It was really coming from inner city and going to the suburb. And that's, yeah, that was, that was an interesting time.

The introduction to music coming from what I think of as sort of a black and white world of, you know, communism, which is maybe true, maybe not. I don't know. That's just that's sort of my image of the stories when you have, you know, your time of the 80s and your influence. American music is the Beatles, which at that point was 20 years old, you know. Wow. When, you know, when the music you were exposed to in previous to the U.S., must be super regional, and then what brings you to this idea of, oh, I see that guitar, I'm going to play that thing. So my dad, even in Russia, my dad plays like four or five instruments.

And so I remember going, like as a five, six-year-old, going, he would have an engineering job, But then because there was enough money in communism, he would go and then do these wedding gigs. And so he would go and I remember, like, me and my mom on the side, one of the gigs watching and somebody came up and gave him like a tip. And I was just like, wow, that's so cool. Like, it must have been like five rules or some shit. But like, you know what I'm like, whoa, like he's getting money. Like, no.

And so the instruments was always around the house. But, you know, my dad being good and having perfect pitch. And also Russians have this intensity. about us, I'll say, not them, us. We have this intensity and like, like, the Moscow Conservatory is like notorious for being the craziest where they hit kids with like fucking rulers on their fingers for not playing the scale right type shit. So my dad definitely doesn't, has not hit me over not playing the skills right, but he's

definitely got this Russian intensity about him. And so I remember being a kid and picking up and he's like, no, no, no, no, that's not, no, that's not how you play. And so I was kind of turned off of it. But when I got to America, like music was just such a big part of culture. that I just, it was, like I really was just in fact that basketball. And then once, once Nirvana, like, really started making, making waves like that, you know, it was basketball, but then it was also like, I, naturally, I played a little guitar because

I just picked it up at the house. And then I don't know if it was, like, some girls in fifth grade, they were like, oh, my gosh, you play guitar that made me, I don't know what made me get a band together with my friend and we would do Nirvana songs. Did you have a band name? Gosh, no, I don't even remember. Gosh, no, I don't remember. Do you not remember or you're not going to say it?

No, no, no, I would tell you. I would tell you. Yeah, I would tell you. It was kind of great, like that era, because the same era for me, of like picking up instruments. And I remember my mom and sister when Smells Like Teen Spirit came out and they're like, this guy can't sing. And if you're a younger brother, like my older sister and my mom would listen to Barbara Streisand. So here I am like, no, Barbara Streisand can sing.

This guy can't. But meanwhile, I'm like, I love this guy. And I was picking up a guitar and going upstairs and being like, oh, these are songs I can play. These are power chords. And it's like, it's kind of cool. It's not one four or five. It's like slightly out. You're like, oh, man, this is pretty cool.

And the guy's yelling. Like, is it okay? Is it okay that is singing? what you is singing Barbara Streisand or is singing Kirk Cobain and it was like literally that was the album

where I first questioned oh maybe I am not like my sister you know it's like you follow your older siblings thing so like I just remember like that same album and that era of like

obviously 10 for Pearl Jam and you know it's like Stone Temple Pilots is one I've been coming back to that stuff bro I'm not going to lie to What an amazing era. I hate to say it because I sound so,

but coming back to Stonter Pathers and Nirvana, these are incredible records, bro. You know, like, and Soundgarten and all that stuff. There was also, you know, now I think because of streaming, you can have a very short attention span, but when you could only buy one album at a time or if you started to join the mail order club.

Bro, it was, was it not BMG? BMG, I was, 100. In Columbia, I think. Each had like, yes. You could, and you could every like six months rejoin and get like, for one cent, you get seven CDs. You're like, shit, I'm going to get blind melon. I'm going to get like, you go down.

You do all that, like, whatever was, whatever was a thing in the 90s. But also somehow I'd get like Fush Nikins and Fugees. And I was just, you're taking, because we've had this conversation. when we're writing and we're saying that like it was an interesting time because you had the Nirvana but then you had the Wu-Tang and you had the Drain Snoop phenomenon too and it's like I feel like that really helped shape me and you imagine as well too it was it wasn't just all rock like it was like it was a lot of rap too and that's that you couldn't jump ship once on to the next unless you had a mix CD which you didn't burn CDs yet and or mixtape you

literally had to listen to an album then you would switch the CD. but you'd get through all 12. Exactly. And you'd really like, you know, this is another thing where it will sound dated, but the value of an album versus a single, especially in getting to know an artist, there it is.

Is that you can, you immerse yourself into a world, especially the good albums. You know, the fault of the music industry was at the time, sometimes they were selling a single package in an album. They're selling plastic. They're not selling music.

They're selling plastic. Yeah, and the 11 songs besides the single were trash, and you just had to pay for the whole thing, and you'd sit through it, and you're like, this is terrible. Because it was hard to skit songs. Like, you just, but that was an era where you actually had to be in the moment. Anyway, so you pick up a guitar.

I just went way off track. No, but it's just good, man. You pick up the, you know, Nirvana's out. You're impressing these girls because you're picking up a guitar. Yeah. You're like, check this out. Yeah, precisely. Could you sing it all?

Yeah, a little bit. I sucked. I sucked. I sucked. The drummer didn't sing, so I had to, like, you know what I mean? But, yeah, it was Nirvana. And then it got it to metal because I started, you know, yeah, it was metal for, like, Metallica. I got into, like, guitar nerdery.

Because you got to understand you would put on radio and you would hear Eric Johnson. Beep-a-do, peepo do, ba-do-do-ba-do-ba. It clips of Dover. It was a huge. I got to look it up, man. I got to look it up. It must have been top ten bill. board and it was an instrumental guitar song. It had to been. I've heard that song on the radio

growing up on every station, every format. And it was like, it was a time of like Eddie Ben Halen and Eric Johnson and where there was like shredders and guitar virtuosos, technical guitar virtuosos on the radio. So I'm listening to the radio like, damn, like Metallica? I remember hearing Metallica on the radio? I'm like, wow, you could do guitar solo. So I got into like the whole guitar thing. Did you have like posters of Kurt Hammett and like music? Yeah, I was, I was, yeah. My, I, I, I, I, My parents didn't let me do posters, but I was like, Kirkham and Megadeth, I did like Dinebeck, Daryl, like, you know.

Wait, why didn't they, why didn't they let you have posters? Well. Do you have basketball posters? So at that time. Were you a Knicks fan? What's your team? Oh, man, no, I was a Lakers. I don't know why.

It was Lakers for me. Well, 80s. No, no, I mean, look, look, I remember watching the Bulls. I remember watching, I think I just didn't, wasn't a Bulls' favorite team because everybody was, the Bulls, 92, 93, 9, right. What an era. Like, I remember being there watching with my grandfather and watching. And just really, I think the point to drive home, though, about this whole shock of coming over to America and being in communism, like, we were so under the system in communism and so, like, almost in prison to what we could and could not do.

And the idea of coming to America and, like, being free and saying curses and songs. And, you know, my dad was always like, jazz, jazz, jazz, jazz, jazz is the truest of America. American art form and coming back to it now, I know exactly what he means even deeper now because coming from a communist world, coming to a place that invented a genre of music where you could literally make up the song as you go improvise. And so that's where I, that's where it took over my life. Jazz at that point, it was from the Ben Halen technical thing and then I started to get into jazz and under it.

And I think it was that freedom of seeing my mom design something from, from out of it It creates something from nothing. And, you know, I really, sorry, I have to mention Jimmy Hendricks, too. That was, I remember the day that I fell in love with music on a different level. I remember it was that one day, and my mom was at work in New York. I couldn't drive me to anywhere, to any friend's house, and I lived far away from everybody. And I just, the guitar, I was just like really about basketball. And then I said, you know what, I'm so bored.

Let me just practice guitar. And there was a thing that my dad challenged me that I couldn't do. And I was like, and I literally practiced, I think, for like nine hours. And I started being able to do it fast. And when he got home, I said, look, dad, I could do the scale, the pentatonic scale. And I'm fast and he's like, what though? Like, when did, what? Have you been practicing?

I'm like, no, I just learned, I just learned, I practiced today. He's like, wait, you learn how to do that in one day? The next day he came with a live at Woodstock, Jimi Hendry CD. And I remember putting out on the headphones, it changed my life because it was so free. It was like these big records like Purple Hayes. and Foxy Lady. And I knew that, I have heard those records already, but hearing him improvising,

it was so like liberating and free that he could go anywhere. And I just remember that feeling. And that's what made me fall in love with jazz a few years later, is that feeling of being free and just being able to take the music anywhere you please. Going to school at all must have also been a moment of pride for your parents. But as a, the family I grew up in, I was really scared to say I was a musician. It was like I had to come out to my parents to be like, I want to go to school for music.

There it is. Because it was like, I'm going to be a, I used to say I'm going to be a heart surgeon because my grandma was a cardiologist. I'm going to be, I went to, as far as singing an entertainment attorney at one point when I was like 14. Because I was just trying to get around. I was just trying to get around the idea of saying, like, like, I think what I really want to do is pursue art. And, you know, and like seeing my parents, like, have to melt. And they were very supportive.

But having to tell your parents, I'm going to go to, I want to go to Berkeley School of Music, even if you were a well-studied, very accomplished guitarist at this point through high school, did your parents support that as immigrants? Or were they like? I'm so thankful and I'm lucky. and you even asking the question just reminds me how grateful, you know, I am. But yeah, my parents, I remember, oh, God, my uncle, you know, I don't want to, like, throw him out there like that.

But he took me, when I was 14, he sat me down and it was like, I don't know if he was drunk. I don't know what the deal was, but he sat me down and literally tried to talk me out of being in love with music. Like, literally try to talk me out of pursuing it, you know? But, yeah, I definitely heard the, uh, um, um, um, um, um, uh, um, uh, um, uh, um, um, um, uh, um, uh, um, uh, uh, uh, when are you going to get a real job? No, but it was like so intense. And now thinking back on it, like, oh, God, that's not the vibe. But you're bringing it up partly because somewhere in your psyche,

it probably gave motivation to prove that person wrong. So like, you know, for what it is, the support's worth a lot, but so is the opposition. You're right, man. You're absolutely right. I should be grateful because that's what makes us stronger. And the, but I got to say, you know, so look, when I was 14, I got a full ride to the Berkeley summer program. I was a prodigy. I got really good at jazz, and I was the youngest person to get the full ride to go to this program when I was 15 at Berkeley.

So I was in the Berkeley system. So I knew when it was time to go to audition for Berkeley College three years later, they were going to probably give me a scholarship because they wanted me around. They wanted me to be there. I represented that, you know what I mean? And I was making money by the time I was 14 off of music. I was playing jazz shows because I got really into it and I got good and I seen another kid doing it when he was 14. He was a prodigy and I was like, you know what?

I could catch up to him and I caught up to him. We started working together. And then I was just talking about this with my manager yesterday. That's where I feel like it's set me up to do what I'm doing now because it's before the internet. Well, okay, the internet was around. This is before we had access to it, right? I would have a sheet, drummers, bass players, piano players, horn players.

And I would call them and I would have a gig. I would have somebody, I would have a gig that pay maybe $50 each and I need to get a bass player and a drummer. So I would call like drummers. You know, musicians that were like 50, 60, 70 years old. And that's another interesting part of my musical upbringing is I learned, I came up playing jazz. When I was 14, I used to play with literally jazz legends who were 70, 80 years old. So my favorite guitar player was West Montgomery. And so I was able to play with Eddie Buster, who used to play with that as West Montgomery.

And so I was getting mentored by somebody from that generation. And I love jazz because it really was musically and artistically really pleasing. And my dad, like, it was like really pleasing my dad. Like that was a connection. He just couldn't believe he had a son who was a jazz virtuoso. And like he would drive me when I was 14. He would drive me to these places where they were. these crackheads and drug addicts would hang out and I would play with the legends.

It was like crazy, you know, like it was a thing about it. But that kind of leadership and calling people checking in, reminding, hey, like, are you still good for tomorrow's gig? Like, okay, and then also get into the gig. And this is exactly what I feel like I do now. Get to the gig. Everybody's like, okay, we're here. Okay, guys, this is what we're going to do.

Versus cocktail hour. We're just gonna play drum, please, just brushes. We're gonna play these kind of songs. Let's start with this one first. Just really quiet. Then second set, you know what? Base player came. You actually switch from upright to electric.

We'll just do some of these other, you know what I mean? Jazz fusion, quote unquote things. And I would get through the gig and I would like help curate, you know, the bar owner would come over and be like, hey, you guys are too fucking loud. Like, you know what I mean? I'm not gonna pay for it. I'm like, hey, tell your drummer to stop fucking playing so loud. So now this is what I do.

I get to a session. I'm like, okay, guys, hear me out. I think we should do this and this. Is anybody having ideas? Okay, I think if we write this, I could get a feature from this. And maybe if it's good, like we could just send it straight to my manager who's working on this project. And I feel like it's the same fucking shit. We're curating rooms.

And I feel like that was what I was doing when I was in my teens. Is your recall for things like core changes? really in tune, like, can, if I say, you know, what are the core attenions to watermelon man? Like, do you know, can you recall that stuff or do you need a fake book in front of you? Oh my gosh. I never used the fake book because I'm so glad you were having this conversation. This is a different, yeah.

Yeah, so I always, it's just so crazy. I was thinking about it today because my OG said, don't ever bring a fake book on stage. I said, got it, done. That's it. If you want to play something, learn that shit. Learn the fucking melody. Don't ever bring a fucking fake book on stage with me, ever. So got it.

Never had to tell me then. I was telling my friends, yo, don't ever bring a fake book on stage. You know what I'm saying? That's what I learned. My OG taught me, so I was like, yo. So you just got to learn the melody and know it and hear it. And hear it. I would play with OGs.

They're like, you don't know it. Okay, they'll play it and after the first chorus, you should know what the fuck it is because you heard it one time. You know what I mean? That's really how it goes. Do you still have that recall for most of these songs? Yeah. Yeah.

Well, I've trained my ear to hear a song. If you're here, I'll tell you what the chords are before picking up an instrument. Right. I mean, there's, you know, they're the likes of you and Alizondo, also a guest of this podcast. You know, these guys who, it's like, I remember, you know, the guys who while talking to you are also charting out the thing, you know. Like they're so focused on it. How often are you using the studio guitarist skill set in your production today? It's so crazy you say that because I can't really even talk about it much.

But recently I did what I believe is so far to be the most innovative project of my career. I can't say much, but I will say this. I partnered up with another podcast guest, T. Ron Thomas. And we made really just the most exciting thing we ever done. And so that, without saying too much, because we're really going to reveal, it's quite a surprise. But I really went back to some of my big, big arrangements. And so I was out there really arranging and charting out, you know, parts for a full big band. You know, five trumpets, five saxes, and five trombones.

And so where did you record it? All in my spot. I just love, you know, my, I love staying home. But you weren't doing, you weren't at East West formerly, you know, we might go in and then re-recorded some things. I just, you know, just want to get it done. And, you know, it's quick. Yeah, there's an efficiency part. It's a efficiency.

Every time I'm like. Do you have the same saxophonist then play all five parts? Yes, right? So I have to give them a shout out. Ian, Ian Roller. So I did a big band a couple of years ago, Bryce and Tiller hip. me up to do, he wanted to do a, because, okay, people just want to do jazz when it's fucking Christmas time. So it was Christmas time, he's like, oh, I want to do Winter Wonderland,

Big Banner, I want to do this version of this, like how Michael Boubley did. I want to do big band arrangement. And I'm like, okay, it's all right. You know that's expensive guys, right? To get a full big band, of course, they're like not trying to hear no East West. They're like, yeah, well, you do what you do. So anyway, I have to give you in Roller a shout because this man came, he played. Of course, alto saxophone, tenor saxophone, tenor, and Bear saxophone that he played flute. He played piccolo. He played clarinet and he played bass clarinet. And this fucking guy made it happen for me. And I give him a shout. He's, he's, uh, yeah. Okay. So you graduate Berkeley. Isn't like the next day you start touring with Alicia?

Well, I was, no, I was like a little confused. I went back to my parents' house. And so I think the most important thing of Berkeley. You have like 10 years from graduating to like the shit really happening. Well, it was, so basically, I think the most important thing what happened for me in college is when I went there, like, I was really just like about jazz. But when I went there, my roommates, you know, we were smoking weed, listening to Joni Mitchell, listening Pink Floyd and listening to other shit that socially I wasn't really around because I was around 60-year-olds. I was around only OGs for my whole life.

I wasn't around. There wasn't many people my age that, you know what I mean? So, but for the first time I'm now getting into play. place where there's only kids my age and they're listening to different shit, they're listening into different hip-hop, there's the roots of this, and Lauren Hill, DeAngelo, you know, it was a whole new soul movement at the time. And so that's when I really started gaining appreciation for the medium that we're in, which is not just music, but words and music.

So songs, that's when I really started getting obsessed with songs. And so before I left school, I started... I started writing songs, which was crazy for a jazz student to do, because I would go to my jazz teacher, so what you've been working on? I'm like, I've been writing, I wrote this song. It's called Pretty Flower, Pretty, Pretty Flower, please don't cry. They're like, what?

Why the fuck? Wait, what? I thought you're supposed to be composing this atonal piece, like you told me, like, for a, a woodwind quintet. Like, what are you doing? Like, I'm like, no, like, I'm inspired by how the words relate to the music. It's crazy. I still think this is the coolest fucking medium, man,

because you could really do, you could really have the music and then literature. It's literally literature. My two favorite things, storytelling and music. Like what is, songwriting is the most powerful medium, man. I get, you know, Miles Davis and Coltrane and Thelonious and go down the list of instrumentalists, primarily instrumentalists and instrumental albums. But Duke Ellington was also an instrumentalist who, who's, biggest records are songs.

And no question the great singers of the 20s, 30s, and 40s were all instrumentalists where their voice was an instrument. And somehow when, by the time we get to college, the minute that there's vocals or lyrics, it somehow loses its integrity as far as Like, it doesn't push the boundary anymore or some... It's like... It's like...

It's like... Probably the reason why the medium's struggling is because if there isn't a levy or there isn't somebody who's singing, it just gets... It's lost because it's not relating to... It's only relating to themselves. It's just...

And I'll be honest with you. It's just looking in a mirror over and over again. But I'll be honest with you... It's... It's very meditative. I love that you're saying this is a great conversation. I will say this my, and I'm not one of those guys that knows a couple of Coltrane albums.

Like, I could sit here and actually talk Coltrane discography with anybody in the world. And nobody knows more about Miles Davis' discography. Haven't said that than me. I really, I was the kid in college that was pissing off the Miles Davis class professor because I knew more than he was, because on this one recording he would say that Tony was 16. I was like, no, I know this what they say on the recording. Actually, I did the math.

He was actually 17 at the time. Anyway, my favorite Coltrane album is Coltrane Johnny Hartman. It has vocals. It's the greatest. It's my... David Foster asked me what my one Desert Island album is. Without thinking, I just said that Coltrane and Hartman because that's still my favorite because there's that...

Yeah, dude. Yeah. Look, I will say this, that there's something about meditation. There's something about art that we have to tune out the rest of the world and we have to tell them what it is. We have to say, okay, I went deep inside of me. I'm more qualified. And so according to my taste, this is what I think the art that you should be ingesting.

You know, like when I go, I'm a casa, like, I'm not going to tell him what to give me. I'm like, bro, what's fresh? You know, I'm not going to tell you to give me something that's not. You tell me what you do best. You tell me the fish that's fresh. I do believe that there was a period that started with a bebop era that you're talking about in 1940, that jazz wasn't about popular culture anymore. It's about the clubs.

It was about the underground. And it was about like, listen, I'm going to talk in slang. And if you're cool to hang on and follow the story and understand it, you're going to get it and you're going to be blessed. But if you're not, if you're jiving and if you're not cool, if you can't understand it, that's your loss. And so that's what Bebop was about, is about having those deeper slang. Just think of it as like the deepest slang.

That's what Bebop happened. And it was self-indulgin. You're like, what are these guys talking to each other? Just like literally, but man. No, Zika L. Like, watch me. But when you really learn to, it's like, wine, you have to learn how to ingest it. When you learn how to ingest jazz, good jazz. And you listen

to it, it's the craziest storytelling. And you're like, wow, he's not just playing a bunch of notes. He's having a theme that he's developing. And he played that melody there because he's quoting a whole other theme from a whole other song. It gets so deep, man. And it's like, it's like the ultimate meditation. But at the same time, I get it why it's not for everyone. And that's my thing. Two, I was based on that. What I take away from that is being able to close my eyes and listen to my own voice. And that is the takeaway from me from improv. Yeah.

The first time I ever wrote lyrics to an existing melody was my jazz teacher in high school saying, I want you to write lyrics to Kind of Blue. And it was... Which song? Probably so what. That Kind of Blue on... Or whatever track three is. Isn't that like...

Oh, that's the, it's the blue. Uh-da-da-da-da-da-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na. Okay, got it. Yeah. What is that? Oh, blue is green. There it is. Is it right?

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on this podcast. Plans start as low as $10 a month. Learn more and get started today at chartmetric.com. Anyway, whatever it is. But that was like the first time of actually doing that, which then the amount of times in my professional career that I've had to write lyrics to an existing melody. And in the room, how many songwriters don't write lyrics well,

but they write melodies really well, and they'll start by scatting in some capacity. But they can't necessarily articulate in lyrics what can match that melody. And similarly, as somebody who grew up doing jazz as a singer, that ability to, I remember getting frustrated with an album I produced in my mid-20s because the person couldn't create new melody.

on the fly quickly. And it's like, when you do jazz, you're just like, oh, well, how about this? Yes. Okay. Well, this works through the chords. Okay, let's move this over here. Let's move it to this now.

Just the knowledge of how a melody fits over chords and chord changes is so valuable in what we do. Even maybe it's even more valuable that I wasn't great at it. because I was I always I was writing more hooks than in a way as a you know I wasn't so I wasn't what's his name Kurt whatever the Ellen yeah I wasn't Kurt Elling yeah but you but you you you had to break it down to the bare minimum of like okay what the what is yeah yeah it was just it was general it would be more like what Neil Young how Neil Young plays good You know, it's like, it's a good thing that he was not a good guitarist.

He's not like... But he wasn't the worst either. But he wasn't the worst. He actually, the funny thing about Neil Young is a guitar, but he actually went out there as if he was fucking Jimmy Henry. He went out there and took solo. I'm like, look at this guy. He...

And he's actually one of my favorites, but it is true, not for his guitar playing. Yeah. But I give him props. I'm like, wow, he's out there. He's... So you, all right, let's go, you know, you start touring with some of the biggest artists. Lauren was my first gig. gig and yeah, it was wild, it was nuts, it was chaotic, but you know, then after that I stayed

in New York and then Alicia was like, you know, there wasn't a lot of people already in New York, you know, a lot of artists. And so there was very few gigs in New York and so I got the Alicia gig and that changed my life that took me around the whole world as a guitar player. But at that point, I knew, I remember talking to the sax player and he was a legend. He was originally on the police, Regada de Blanc tour. And, you know, 10, 20 years later, he's on tour with, with Alicia. And I'm like, he's 51 years old.

I'm 22. He's making less money than me. And I'm like, damn, okay, like, I don't want this to be me in 30 years. Like, so I'm like, okay, I need to keep honing in the pen and the writing because, like, that's really, that's really the future of, of. And so that's when I started to slightly understand the power of making copyrights and songwriting. And, you know, because I'm like, okay, I'm getting a check. But like, not that check. Not that check.

How do you prevent from, how do I prevent to be 30 years later making less money than the frigging, you know what I mean? Like not, yeah, devaluing, right? So yeah, it just started pushing me. So I would be in the my hotel album writing and recording and slipping release. some demos and CDs at the time, and she started taking me around to the studio, and that was my first time co-writing in a studio

was when Alicia would bring me around, you know? You, even being in that experience, it gets you exposure to what it is to write a song, but those songs bluntly aren't necessarily coming out, and they're not necessarily hits. Yeah. Were you discouraged? As somebody who was so...

Oh, yeah. Just... Music comes so easily to you, you walk in, you got to be like, how hard can this be? At least I feel like I would be like that. Oh, no, I was dealing with some political BS. And that's when I was more discouraged by being in a room and having to do the politics and having,

it was very complicated at the time. Look, I don't want to look back on it and talk shit, but at the same time I want to appreciate it and it made me who I am And it made me understand the room and learning how to read the room because it was very competitive in the room. There was somebody else there that she would bring around. There was kind of like me. We were kind of compete for the same spy. And he was older and already writing with her.

And so it made me feel very alienated. And it's like it just showed me a different part of the creative process that when Quincy Jones says, when God leaves the room. And I remember at that moment realizing, like, I never want to be in a room suggesting something. just because somebody will think I'm just because I won't be a contributor to this record if I don't say something. If it's better for me not to say something, for me, if it's better for me not to change the courts

because they're great, just shut up and don't, you know what I mean? Just be here and wait until you actually have something valuable to add versus like what I was exposed to then is somebody in the room just being like, oh, change it just to include themselves on it. That, and that's, to be honest with you, I don't even want to talk smack about that period, but learning what I, what I took away from that period was really that, man, and how political it could be.

And that, like, that's not how I make the best music. And that's not how, you know what I mean? Like, I learned. And I remember saying, like, I never want to do that. Years later, I never. And I remind myself now, like, sometimes when I feel in a room, there's, like, somebody else. else and it's moving quick and I'm like, oh God, I want to be here. I want to, and I'm like, you know what?

There's a lot of decisions still to make. The song is not done. The production is not done. It's not mixed. There's a lot of decisions to make. If it's not broken, don't say it just to insert yourself. Yeah, there's the version of that in the pop game is that there's often three, four, five, six people in a room.

There is six people in a room. All your contribution needs to be is 16.6%. Most people who are in a room at a certain level have all written songs by themselves or 50-50s or are used to 33%. So they're used to at least being heard a third of the time. But when you really calculate what 16.6% is of a song, you're talking about it's 16.6% of a song, you're talking about essentially if your job was coming up with the melody of the pre-courses and you did that well that was great if you were the one that said i think we can beat this concept that can be enough or even if you know if the artist is really in tune with what they want

and your job is to step out of the way and maybe question stuff and say well could you try it like this could you try that that? You know what? Your way was better. All of that has value. Oh, yeah. And I think there's this idea that when you put a writer in a room that is used to being heard 33% of the time,

they're going to really struggle when there are six people in a room and they only have to do half as much work. You know? And it's like, and you're just trying to, a lot of songwriters need to learn the, what the value is of what they're doing in the room that day. And, you know, if everyone has 100% of the song, it's going to be either really vanilla or really bad.

Yeah. But it's not going to be, it's not going to sound like fun. Yeah. You know, it's going to sound like a lot of people had an opinion. Absolutely. It's funny, going back to a jazz quote, Pat Metini said that if, if you're used to collaborating a lot, you've got to make sure to make some time to write by yourself. And if you're used to writing by yourself, you have to make it a point to collaborate

with people. And I say that because I love collab, and I think this is a beautiful medium. However, I'm not going to say anybody else's name. I'll say, I know what it's like to get comfortable with somebody. And if somebody's always doing drums, I know that I'm going to come. I'm going to do my little chords. I'm going to sit back, let them do the drums. But that's not going to make me necessarily a better producer. Now, it's not always the greatest idea. Well, you do chords and I do, well, no, like you're dope at drums, I'm dope by chords. But it's very important to continue, for me at least, I value developing and being well-rounded. And as a musician, producer.

And I value songwriters that could give me great input on production. And I value some of my best work is because I'm able to come in as a producer and help write the song. Now, I'm not a Ross where I'm not great like that. But if I could just, you know, you ever carry something up the stairs and it's so heavy and then somebody comes and just lives up and it feels so much, they just add a little bit of help, but it feels so much lighter. I just want to be like that, the writer in the room, they're like, I'm not going to be the one carrying.

I shouldn't be the one carrying the fucking lyric writing of the, I should not be. If it is, I know something, the room got misc curated and we're going to leave with a decent, an okay song. But at the same time, if I could just help lift the finger, you guys are just working so hard in this word. And I'm like, hey, why don't we say, you know what I mean? Like, oh, God, yeah, you're right. You know what I mean?

Or like, hey, can we maybe just tweak the concept a little bit? I don't know. Like, I value, yeah, I value being able to just know a little bit about everything. And I urge the writers, too, to understand a little bit of our production. So you don't say things like this to a producer. I don't know. It's not it. Well, okay.

It's too fast. It's too slow. It's too dark. It's too bright. It's the snare drum that's bothering me. If you could get particular, God, we love that, man. There's nothing worse than an A&R or somebody being like, um... I like it.

I don't like it. Yeah, it's like... Either is terrible. At least your ego's filled by I like it. But, you know, it's not... If somebody... The A&R guys that are like, this is a smash every time, they will break your heart more than the person who...

It was like, eh, and doesn't like anything. But the person who's like, I don't like anything, is probably also has the inability to make your song better. Exactly. I just love it. I really, I love when we're all in tune, like working with a writer. And like, okay, they're not stepping on my toes. They're just like, hey, giddy, I love what you're doing.

But don't you think this should be like we should put some tempo on it? Like something like that. Like, wow, thank you. And the same thing. Like for a producer, I tell the producer is assigned to me. I'm like, guys, if you're going in there and you're making some chords and the drums and then you're literally have your back turned to the writers the whole time, you are not really producing the session. If you're doing a beat and then stepping out and or sending, like, I'm sorry you're not really producing the session. You have to know enough about what they're doing to say, yo, I love that.

Or like, damn, almost guys, I think we could, I think we could beat that line. Or like, you know it? Don't change it. That's perfect. Don't question it. You had it already, you know? and so I feel like education is not a bad thing. You're like, let's just keep growing, keep learning.

People are like, oh, theory, I don't want to learn theory. It's not bad, bro. Like, learning theory is not bad. Learning, no kind of knowledge is bad. It's just how you use it, you know? When we were first writing together, you're talking about running into somebody who introduced you as a really, as a great guitarist.

And this is while you were already starting to get recognized as one of the best producers in music. And I remember you being like, offended not that somebody called you a guitarist, but it's like, what do you have to do to show people that you're not just a guitarist anymore? When did you believe yourself that you weren't just a guitarist?

Well, I started not liking the word musician. Because when you say musician, when I started understanding business, when I started understanding that musician equals, work for hire. Producer, writer, part owner. So when I understood the value of intellectual property, that's when I started realizing that I don't even like to be called a musician

because they just assume him will work for hire. Oh, he's a great guitar, great musician. Yeah, you could have hired the great guitar player for like not a lot of, you know what I mean, not a lot of money, relatively speaking. And so when I started understanding that that word devalues me, Um, and that being called the producer actually, it's like saying he's a, this is a part owner of the song or company, whatever. And that's, that's when I started kind of, you know, changing that and not, but at the same time, I don't think there's, I'm,

I'm also not coming back to the fact that it's, it's a beautiful thing that I'm a musician and there were, there were musicians. And I can't, I can't say it's bad because not everybody has the same ambition or the same goals as, me and then it's okay to be a musician. And it's a, it's a, it's a honorable thing, man, you know, but for me personally, yeah, it was, it was that, that particular situation, I know what it was. You know what I'm saying? And, and so, yeah, it was, sorry, I'm still, I'm still processing all of it because I think a part of me is having something to prove to myself, when I actually did prove something to myself, then it's like, I mean, has any, does anybody

he introduced Michael Zana Jr. as a bass player? If you said, yo, this is a dope bass player. Would he get, and would he get a fan? He probably would be like, yeah, that's a nice. He played bass on the wrong man. And when he came in and played on it, it's like I'd worked with him as a producer,

and I knew that he was a great bassist, but I hadn't seen him chart out anything. And I didn't realize, oh, when he said he was a studio bassist before, like the extent of it, Yes. It was as if I worked, I've worked with Josh Freeze on drums, like those kinds of things. You see these guys were great studio musicians and you see how they chart out stuff.

And it's like going to Nashville, that whole crew of people who are just, that's what they do. And it is really interesting. I think he's honored now to be known as a great basis. And that's what I'm saying, bro. That's what I'm saying because George Benson has the same story. he started as a jazz guitar play, became one of the biggest pop stars at the moment. You know, after Thriller, that's the first thing they did was, give me the night, Quincy and Rod Temperton, right?

He was a huge pop star. But now he says he loves being called the guitar player. Yeah. After all that, because he's like, man, I don't want to be known as a pop star. Everybody knows me as a pop star, but wow, to be known as a really who he is, an innovator of the instrument, to be known as a, as a, technical and jazz innovator on the guitar is more. So that's why I asked, that's interesting that you said that

because I'm starting to get to that point too where people are like, oh, I didn't know you play a guitar. And I'm like, wow, I probably should post some videos or something. This is the weird thing where I think we all want to curate our image and we can't really. and the world just doesn't have bandwidth to define you as multiple things in a world where everyone's hyphenated.

It's very complicated. It's like there are a number of people who've said that they didn't know I write songs because they thought I was a podcast host and you're like, what? I'm not a podcast host. I just interview my friends and we release it in this medium.

But like I can't even wrap my head around that. You know, But it's like, people just, that's how people view it. And you kind of have to be like, that's cool. It's cool that people even give a shit at all. Yeah. Any of it. Yeah.

You know? Like, you can only hate on it so much. Yeah. On the way, it being like the way people view it. No, I know. I know. I know. It's, honestly, it's, it's something I'm still processing and I'm still working on.

I don't want to say struggling with, but I'm still working on it. And you said something. is like a triggering word to his whole. And I know you didn't mean it, but even those two words that you just said, he played on those words drive me crazy. When people text me, yo, can you come play on this? Like, what? No, I could come and help you produce that record.

I'm not gonna come. They're like, no, no, that's what I meant. Now they're like, no, no, no, I'm so sorry, dude. That's what I meant. Before they were like, or they're my career. They're like, well, no, sorry. I'm the producer. Can you come play with?

I'm like, no, thank you. And they would get bad at me. That was, I think, the biggest transition. I tell my, every musician, every time musician wants to become a producer and songwriter. I'm sorry, everybody. They all get sick of being on the road and they're all like, what do I got to do? Me, I had to actually say no. I had to say no, listen, I can't do that.

I don't do that anymore. I'll come there and I guarantee you I'm going to play some original melodies on the guitar that are not part of the current composition. If we could do something, I started out my first placement with Jay Cole. Apparently, I did that guitar melody at the end. I got my two and a half percent it was fire you know what I'm saying got my got my credit and

there began my songwriting career my two and a half percent on apparently J. Cole and that's why I started going from there they were like oh you did that can you come play on this I'm like no like I gotta do it for five like five percent you know like but and some people had problems other people you know got mad at me and they said didn't then it went from that to like okay well

there's nothing but guitar in the song. So if I'm just doing it, I'm like, aren't I co-producing? You know, and then I had a lot of falling out with my producer friends who only wanted me to be a writer on it. You know what I mean? And so it was musician, writer than producer. Now, it's like, maybe I could just chill and not have a, you know, not have a complex about it. Yeah, exactly. There is a weird thing where, because we have, we have a writer who's a world-class guitarist who basically produces these records and it's really interesting to see the battles of like you know there's a there's a song that I played a guitar part on that is the theme of the song the first minute and a half of

the song is only the acoustic guitar that I played and then strings and all these things come in halfway through and the battle of like hey I I'm a co-producer on this you know my story not this it wasn't any else. brother, I know this. And they were like, well, you just played guitar on it. And I was like, well, if I played drums, you somehow wouldn't consider that. No, no, no. Because somehow drums are like the co-producer.

If I programmed drums, you wouldn't even flinch. You'd be like he's a co-producer. But because I played the guitar that is the most identifying part and melody of the entire song outside of the top line, wouldn't that constitute co-production? and it was this huge, it really became a battle where I probably won't end up working with those producers again, although we're friendly. It just was this weird moment of,

I don't understand why this instrument somehow still falls under studio work. It's crazy. When it actually adds melody often. I'm not talking about strumming chords that anybody does. I'm talking about like a picking pattern that becomes an identifier. This is so funny because, I don't know, I'm pretty sure you haven't had him on the podcast, but he's one of my best friends, one of the greatest producers alive. This guy, Rugeet, Shahid.

And we laugh about this all the time. That's his background, too, that he, his first big hit, like, they were. Broccoli. Yeah. And it was, you know, I don't want to put anything out there. But he's gone through his fair share of trouble. People are like, oh, you just play this. Oh, you just did, you know, you just did, you didn't actually do it, you know.

Like, you just play piano on. or something like that. And so it's crazy. Listen, I'd be lying if I told you the two weeks ago, I didn't hear those words. Oh, but didn't you just play guitar? Mind you, this wasn't a co-production. This was my track that had these things,

but it sounded like to this particular A&R that it was mostly guitars. And when, I think, negotiating a fee going back and forth, he mentioned to my manager, but the track, isn't it just guitar? Which I'm like, listen, brother, I've been playing guitar. What do you say to bed on like love yourself when it's just an electric guitar and then trumpets? You know what I said?

I said, bro, feel free to redo it. Feel free to redo it. Give me my 50% publishing and feel free to reproduce it. And then come back to me. See when you can get somebody else to play that part like that. Because this is the thing, it doesn't matter. And that's the, I don't even like when people being at the studio because I work quick. Why?

Because I've been doing this for 30 years. Don't, but just because you see me doing that part in two minutes, you're like, wait, you want all this? You did it in two minutes? It's like, bro, I've been doing this for 30 years so that I could do it in 20, it went in two minutes. This isn't, this doesn't have to end in an argument, but I'm curious about your thoughts on this. as a songwriter who often writes in session certainly 50-50s I'm writing all the lyric and melody

even more sometimes song and often the vocal production and all this stuff why does a producer get 50% of publishing I think it's based in hereof and why does the then why shouldn't

the songwriters get 50% of the production. That's a great. That's an interesting question. So I think it stems from my understanding. It stems from hip-hop, the whole 50-50 thing. It stems from hip-hop. And that is being that a big part of the two reasons.

One, a big part of the medium is sampling. And so they would do 50-50 so that the sample will come out of the producer's side. Because usually the sample would take up 50%. So the producer would be left with nothing. So that's why they do it like that. The second reason is that. that the, the, the, the, when you think of the way, and this is happening, this was happening before hip hop, but I talked to Earth, went and Fire, he was saying that that's how September,

or let's groove tonight or September, one of them happened, they had the music. So they were doing, look, even Don Henley Boys of Summer, that was the track was done. Mike did the track first. And so the whole idea of doing the track first and just writing the lyrics later to it, it was happening before hip-hop, but with hip-hop, it became exclusive. And so that's to me how pop music started being made. Instead of getting in the room of writing,

it would be a track, and then people would write to it. So that's why I feel like it was, okay, there was writing, there was that form of writing in the track, and there's that, and the producer had to clear the samples. So you didn't want to fucking clear from the artist,

so artist was happy to, and then you had to clear the sample from the production. But I see what you're saying, dude. I see what you're saying. There are times where I'll hand a song that's completed to then, that it ends up getting produced not by me or not by me solely. And we share, you know, it doesn't always have to be an equal thing.

But it's just an interesting conversation of like, I just find that a lot of what I do is production. I know that because I'm a producer on. songs too. And so there are times when I'm not the producer, but what I'm doing in a session or to a song is clearly production. Sometimes it's chords and it's all the things. And so you're sitting there doing all the things. And then as a songwriter, you're like, I'm going to walk away with, you know, 33% of this song because the artist and the producer are here too, even if the chords, the melody lyric, the folk production could be primarily one writer.

and that person walks away with a third with none of the points or any of the advance, I see why songwriters, in this era in particular, when they're often in the room creating it, are starting to feel, not starting to just feel like they should contribute. They should be compensated for their 30 years of experience.

Not necessarily by the producer. The producer can advocate for the songwriters to also get a point or can, you know, I don't think it should come out of the producer's share. I think it can be on top of. You know, like we're all on the same team. I'll tell you what, I'm agreeing with you. And furthermore, as a producer,

if anybody added anything to the master recording, you should not be surprised if they ask for a point, credit, part of your points, whatever it is, part of your advance, whatever, whatever. Yeah. There's, if somebody, if the writer's in the room and they strummed to strummed or even did some background vocals. If they're in any way, let's just talk black and white legal.

If you're on a track saying, hey, you are a co-owner of the master recording because you as a human being are appearing on that recording. So if you as a human being are playing some chords, you are co-owner of that recording until signing a document that says you're not or you're apart, whatever, you're going to do the point thing. So it's crazy.

The one thing, again, no, it's not an argument. It's a conversation because I wish there was one rule that would just make sense. All right, you do 50 this, 50 this. But I have, there's two cases. There's the one case where I am in a room with people and as a producer, I'm actually really national style. Like, we're writing this fucking thing together. It's two chords.

Then they leave, go to another session and I'm sitting there for two fucking weeks trying to figure out what the right drum sound is or the right thing. And then going back and forth, the ANR is like, no, make it more energetic. No, it's too energetic now. Go back. And so finally they come in and people are like, wow, well, let's just be real. Sometimes a hit and track to make a song a hit. Like the vocal is good, but when you hear it with the music, you're like, whoa, this is really

sounding like a hit now. So that's the only thing as producers who actually are writing, who actually are in the room writing, and just maybe just getting the vocal down first and the song, and then going and spending a whole other day producing it. We got to do that too because this is just a different thing. My boy, Aunt Clemens, will come. They'll come write a fucking song in two hours, leave,

go to another session, then go to another session. That man wrote three songs that day, three copyrights. While me, I'm like, oh, I'll just stay here and I'll just get the drums right or I'll just get the piano right today and get the production right. I can't go and bounce around and do three other copyrights today. So it's also not right when somebody, yeah, sometimes like, yeah, I'm definitely, I've seen it happen. And I'm like, I see the producer like, you know, just put a beat on it and be in the room. And I'm like, wow, that's kind of crazy because the songwriter actually wrote the chords. Yeah, yeah.

And you laid in. The producers like, can you just lay those chords in? They laid the chords in, this wrote the song, demoed the song really did it. And then the producer produces it. And then the label says, ah, you know, we don't love this production. We're going to have somebody else reproduce it. And then the producer still gets like a fucking half share. And you're like, wait.

Yeah. So what exactly did he do? Because we didn't use his beat. It's so messy. I see it all the time. Now that it's not siloed, when you bring up Quincy and you bring up some of the, like, that kind of thing. like, you know, those guys didn't get publishing. No.

But the song she wrote, he got publishing on PRT because he wrote PRT, but he doesn't have it on Thriller. Yeah, exactly. He doesn't have it on rock with you. Listen, well, I want to keep going on your story. And I know like we're like, this is what happens when you're friends with the guest who like it would be a lot, it'd be a lot easier if I didn't know you or didn't like you.

Okay, so, you know, you've done a lot of stuff. But then once you get into the Mac Miller, uh, may he rest in peace you know that's when it starts to become like oh that guy's a that guy's a writer that guy's like

that guy's different like it's not that you didn't have cuts before that but there's like a level of that and you know then Tray songs and Jeremiah and Rick Ross and you're clearly falling in a certain genre so what happened was there's one little part I left out

is when I started I quit Alicia because I didn't want to go back on tour and I had that, you know, a little slightly, little traumatic experience in the studio, like, you know, over and over again. And so I quit and I said, I'm starting my own band with my best friends because I wanted to write and produce music. And all I wanted to do is write and produce music. And so I said, you know what?

I saved up money from touring with Alicia. I didn't get any credit on this upcoming album. I don't want to just go back on tour, help, and promote the album. I got to keep building. My gut is telling me I need to keep building my muscle as a producer and writer. My guts tell me if I go back on the road for two years, I'm going to miss my window. And so I started a band with my best friends. And the value of that is that was when I pinpointed the sound of my production.

And that's when the first time that I made something, and we listened to her like, holy shit, there's nothing on the market out there like that. And instead of me trying to copy Dr. Dre and Scott Storch and John Bryan and Michael Elzondo and Jeff Basker, I'm like, whoa, this is the first time that I really feel that we've created a sound, no matter if the major label picks us up or not, no matter what happens, I know I have found my voice as a producer because I made something that's unique to anything in the market. And when Radiohead showed their support, and Tom York really showed their support for a couple of our records on our album, enlisted as their favorite album of 2011, I was like, okay,

Crazy. That's my hero. Jimmy Jam was one of those two. And Snoop Dog, too, ironically, because I learned English by listening to a shit, when he was like a big fan of the band. And so that gave me the confidence to know that, okay, I have a sound now. So then coming to L.A. And started getting into production, I just, I always knew, like, okay, I'm good at guitar.

But I do have an aesthetic. And I have a, I do have a taste of something particular which allows me to make a certain kinds of music that Jay Cole, Mac Miller, and all those artists were kind of a chance to rap or were gravitating to, you know, if you listen to, it's kind of crazy, man, because I did it 14 years ago, but everything I'm doing now and the sound that I'm doing now is really stemmed off of the shit I was doing in 2009. It's so similar. So similar.

Going back to tape, going back to live drums, this is really what my sound is now. it's crazy how much of it stem being in the indie band being broke and just put in the art first and being like what is what is that sound and I'm glad it didn't pop off from me early on in my career man because if I would have had a hit early on that time with Alicia if I would have had a hit at the age of 24 25 I just I wouldn't I didn't have that confidence in that sound I would have not known what I did to get there and try to replicate it and not do it again totally you know 15 years later, now I really, I really worked for what I have and I know I can do it again if I have to. There's a long list of amazing artists that you've worked with, but there's something about

being part of an artist in their journey on the rise that's really exciting. And her, I feel like, is become sort of the coming out party for both of you guys in a lot of ways. Do you feel like you've made it? No. I mean, I do. I'm sorry. I do. I feel when I, no, I, I do. I do feel like I made it because when I could wake up, take my daughter to school, spend time with my daughter and then know that I'm living my purpose. That to me is making it. And I really, I really, look, man, I want at least five more houses. I want all that money in my account. But at the same time,

knowing that I'm living my purpose. I mean, that is just the most mentally liberating, freeing thing to know that I'm like, I make the music. And I swear, Ross, I think you feel the same way too. I make the music that I want to make. And I'm not to say that I'm like, fuck you, fuck you. I genuinely love the shit that I make. And I generally feel like I'm around people like yourself and the other writers that when

I do something new, they're like giddy, that's a, that's dope. a first sound. Like, and occasionally I, you know, yeah. So I feel like I made it only because we live our purpose, you know, and I could literally put food on the table for my daughter and my family and make the music I want to make. I don't just, it's great, man. It's what's better than that. Just to do it again, just to keep doing it. That's all I want is to keep doing it. Your work with, you know, Victoria Monet and hosier and all this stuff is so credible, you know, do you feel like you're ever on the outside of the pop game? Oh my gosh, all the time.

You know, I still don't have a top 10. So that's why when I said no, my first reaction when you said, have you made it? I said no, because after bad, my mind went there. Interesting to not have a top 10, but you've been, you know, ranked at the top of, you know. Well, it's coming. It's coming. But I love the challenge. I love the competition.

I pride my, you know, something I wanted to come and talk today about is that like, because I know there's a songwriter podcast and I just, the advice I give to all producers that want to meet with me is like, dude, I have one secret that I did is attach myself to dope songwriters. As a producer, bro, that's the smartest thing that you can do. It's attach yourself to great. It was whether it's the Priscilla, T. Ron, lunch money, whoever it is, whoever it is, to be able to, people like that, when you guys, with people like yourself or Priscilla or Tehran,

when you guys call me and say anything, yo, listen, I got this 17 year old, I'm thinking about signing, can you go, listen, if it's a, if it's a word smith, a copyright smith, I'm like, yes, I'll be there. I don't care, because I don't care what it is. We got to establish a relationship that we're just creating copyrights. I don't know what it's for, you know? In 2019, Priscilla was like, dude, let's go. You're the only other person I met who does R&B who loves country music. Let's make a country trap album. I was like, listen, Priscilla, you're not signed.

We don't have shit going. You're not even managed by anybody. You want to change your name to Money Long. My manager says it's an awful name because it's spelled Mooney Long. But you know what, bro? You're an incredible songwriter and a copyright maker. And how else am I going to spend my days than to make like do three songs with this? So sure, let's just go in and we spent months together just making shit that I didn't know

what it was going to go. It was innovative music to me. And I'm like, I don't care what happens with it. I went to every label. Do you guys want to sign this artist Money Long? All of them said no. All of them. And I was like, I don't care.

Like these songs are great. And all these years later like, Priscilla, I could call her now and I'll say, I need your help and she'll come in. She's like, I don't even do sessions. It was like a couple years ago. I was like, Priscilla, I don't know you do, I don't do sessions, but can you come in? I'm with John Legend.

I just need you to come, you know. She's like, sure, I got you. And so to be able to have that, that's like the, all, what is our productions if it's not a great, if it's not attached to a great song? So I just want to encourage all producers to take care of. And I'm like, I was debating on even saying this publicly,

but like, yeah, man, I'm definitely known If a writer, if I write with somebody and they really do some great work and they're like, and we do a couple of records and I get a song deal out of it or like two fucking advances out of it, I will definitely call them and make, listen, I'm going to pay you what I paid my lawyer. 5% and I'll give you 5%. You don't have to say anything. And I've done more.

I've done more when somebody, I'd write a song with somebody and then they place it with an artist. I'll say, look, you didn't even ask for it. What's your memo? I got you. And so I will do that. I encourage you producers. Now, can't do that with everybody. I have to speak for the producers, too, because sometimes, sometimes writers, just like anybody else, it could be a little underwhelming. Like, as a producer, I feel like, I'm carrying the way and I'm writing it. They, like, leave early. I'm stuck with the artist. That's happened to me. The artist left early. And I'm like, well, somebody's got to write the second verse with the artist. And so I'm stuck.

At those cases, I'm like, okay, now this reminds me why I get paid more and why I get my advance and my points, because. you know, I have to, you left early. But, man, you've got to attach yourself as a producer. Like Jimmy Iveen, his whole thing was he attached himself to a producer. You as a producer, my whole thing was I attached myself to writers. And I'll do anything for them. Even if it's doing some shit I don't want to do. Priscilla had his show.

She called me. She was like, giddy, I don't have a guitar player. I don't have a backline system. And I told my guy Kevin, who signed to me, I said, Kev, we're going to drive to the bay and we're going to do this fucking five songs set with you and you're you're going to sleep on the floor of this hotel

tonight and I'm telling you it's going to be for no money but I'm telling you something is going to happen one day and sure enough that was a month before hours and hours blew up and now me and Kev we did her last single and we did her next single coming up and so I'm like I sound like

I'm scheming on on you writers but I'm like no like that's my way of partnering up. And like, that's what I owe it too, man. The best things, like, I, the best songs are, you know what I mean? Look, on my mom, it's Victoria. You know what I mean? Like, any great thing that I've ever been a part of, um, got to thank the writers, man. The, uh, I love that. The Clive Davis thing was similar. It was like, you know, all these artists come and go. The biggest of the biggest, the biggest, the biggest artist from five years ago almost very few of them are as big today.

Yes. There's a handful, of course. Very few, you're right. But there are so many, and go back 10 years. I can think of more who are not. Or 15 years. Go back 15 years of these ones. It was like the whole industry revolved around.

And you can't find most of them anywhere near a chart. But there are a ton of writers that were big 10 years ago that are still big now, you know, compared to others. Okay, so now we're going to do the last segment of five for five. I'm just those five things. That's what comes off the top of your head, you know. Let's start with Moldova. Communism, Judaism, Eastern European folk music,

bullying, and humble beginnings. The guitar. West Montgomery, Jimmy Hendricks. Paul Simon. This is so random, dude. Andres Segovia. Hey. There's so many, it's so many things.

I don't even... I guess, I guess, I guess, I guess, bread and butter. R&B. American black music. Josh. My right hand. So, wait, though, I have to say, Five things about?

No, no, okay. Can I just do the one? People just do the things. Whatever, whatever it comes, you know,

Josh is your manager, by the way. He probably should specify. And then your parents. Foundation, you know. Yeah, foundation.

Sorry, these are such horrible answers I just gave. It is so cheesy. They're beautiful. I appreciate you doing this podcast, man. I mean,

it's that thing, like you said, I know that, this is the kind of conversation that's happening now that in five years from now it'll be like holy shit these are the things that happened in our last five years and it's going to be wild because you're the five years ago this conversation was totally different and you're on such a solid trajectory and i've been in the room with you it's fun i think that's the other part that a lot of times

not every not writing songs I don't know who said writing songs should be fun because it's not always it's actually it's work it's hard to write a good song it's easy to write a song

it's hard to write a good song a great song a great song often really hard granted that Tehran and Priscilla can sometimes spit out some something and aunt can all spit out some times a great song where it doesn't seem hard at all. But like for the most, for many of us, writing songs is really hard to do well. And you make it such an enjoyable session. That's why

I like writing with you. Maybe the song's good too. Kind of irrelevant because I'm going to still go home and my wife's going to be like, how was your day? I'm going to say it was good or it wasn't. I'm not even going to talk about how it's good the song is because I won't have a bounce of it yet. And if I had a bounce of it, still it would, it would be weird if I was, I guess there's somewhere, I'm like, the day was shit, but the song's amazing. But for the most part, I know, I know that I came home from seeing you at the farmer's market. I was like, you know what I saw?

Like, that says a lot. You make people smile. So I think, I think, you know, maybe you make people better musicians. I don't know. But I know you make people happier musicians. Wow. Ross, that's amazing. Thank you so much.

That's awesome. Thank you. Well, there you go, man. That's your interview. I love it. This episode is produced by Joe London, mega house management, and myself. See you all next week.

I'm Ross Boland, signing off.