And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 199: Amy Allen Pt.2

Episode Date: December 9, 2024

This week’s guest is one of the biggest names in the songwriting world. Her hard work, perseverance and reverence for songwriting have taken her from all an all-star to superstar. From nominations including Songwriter of the Year to multiple #1 songs with multiple artists, this writer’s current run is something few writers in the history of music have done. Not only that, this writer is also back to releasing her brilliant music as an artist. Inspiring songwriters everywhere, this guest is someone we all want to root for. And The Writer Is…Amy Allen! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Let me tell you about ASCAP. ASCAP is America's only creator-first performing rights organization or PRO. Their main job is to pay you royalties when songs you write are streamed broadcast on radio or TV or played live. They're great at collecting royalties. In the most recent year, they collected more than $1.7 billion for ASCAP members. So what makes ASCAP different? They're the only PRO in America that operates on a not-for-profit basis. The only one that was founded by music creators and is still governed by music creators and publishers.

And they're in Washington all the time advocating for songwriter's rights in the age of AI. ASCAP represents over one million members, including this episode's guest, Amy Allen. If you are a songwriter or composer, ASCAP is where you belong. Writers can join for free. Learn more at ASCAP.com forward slash why join and follow at ASCAP on socials. ChartMetric is proud to sponsor the upcoming season of and The Writer is

as the go-to-stores for up-to-date global social streaming and audience data for artists and music industry professionals, chart metric strives to ensure everyone can have a successful career in music. They're easy to understand and powerful analytics on over 10 million artists and 100 million tracks will help answer all of your questions from tracking your stats to discovering new talents. Throughout this season, we'll be showcasing chart metric data to reveal insights about our featured artists. Planes start as low as $10 a month. Learn more and get started today at chartmetric.com.

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and the writer is, to get 15% off the first year of any subscription. That's banzugal.com promo code ATWI. Okay, so we don't always do this, but sometimes we have to do a little amendment to an episode because just some crazy things have happened for this writer, artist, between doing the actual interview and releasing it, which is hard to believe because it was only about a month ago that we did your interview. But since then, crazy things have happened.

So before we show your episode, which obviously people should stick around and listen to, I just want to talk about some of the crazy things that have happened. I can't believe it's only been a month. I feel like I've lived nine lives since I saw you last. That's wild. I mean, I would think that too. I mean, we can just go down the list and then talk about them.

But first of all, Billboard has listed you as the number one songwriter pretty much that entire time, which that in and of itself would be crazy. If you weren't nominated for Songwriter of the Year for the Grammys plus other nominations there, the Sabrina album came out, Tastes is killing it. So you have three, four songs in the top 10, including APT with Rosie and Bruno Mars. And the fact is that's just like, I feel like that I didn't, I already am missing stuff, which that's only since those things would be worthy of a whole new episode. But let's just go down the list for a second.

The Sabrina album finally came out. You're the writer on all of them. The song, the album is just massive, and you have all the songs on it. Do you have any new thoughts now that all of the songs are out versus, I think when we did the interview, Please, Please, Please was out and so was espresso. But, you know, maybe taste was out too. But how do you feel now that the whole, you know, the whole compilation of songs is out? I've been so so excited with how it's been received by her fans.

And I haven't been to the show yet. I'm going to go to the show in L.A. But I have just been so excited to watch all the signs that her fans have been holding up the show and how they are like pulling lyrics from songs that are not singles at all. And like little funny lines that when we were writing them, we both thought were funny. But to also see that those songs are making other people laugh or feel emotional in any, type of way. I think that's just like such an amazing gift.

And the chemistry that I have writing with Sabrina is so fun and exciting and special to me. So it's really nice that that has translated into the album and people are loving it. What's your favorite song in the album that's not, please, please, please, that's not taste and not espresso? Oof, it changes all the time. Right now, I've been loving Slim Pickens.

I've always loved that song. It makes me feel so good. it makes me laugh. And it also really traces back to both of mine and Sabrina's roots of music that we loved that we grew up on, which is like a lot of great country artists. And I love lighted girls. I think that's one of my favorite lyrics I've ever been a part of writing. And, you know, obviously Sabrina's such a powerhouse.

I remember her coming in with that idea for that song. And I felt like it was special immediately. So, yeah, I don't know. It changes all the time. You just got back from being gone for a month and a half. You were on tour with bleachers with Jack, our good friend. And you played at Madison Square Garden amongst many classic venues. When you're on the road, how much of you is Amy Allen?

How much of you is Amy Allen the artist and how much of you is Amy Allen the songwriter? Oh, that's an interesting question. This was such a short run. So this one was, I felt like kind of like baked into me writing in different cities anyways. Like when I went to London, I did a couple sessions when I was there before the show. And then the European stint of it was really only four shows. So it was pretty short. But and then I got to come back to L.A. for like a week for the Greek show.

And I did a bunch of sessions like right up until the day of that. So this felt a bit more like I was still. writer Amy in and amongst playing these amazing shows with Jack and bleachers, which I was so over the moon to do. But when I've gone on longer tours, like a month and a half or something, I find it really actually beneficial to my writing in the long run because I really forced myself to just be in the moment and to journal a lot because there's so much downtime, especially if you're in a sprinter van and you're not on a tour bus, which I've done both. But I find that it's a lot of downtime for me to just be writing in my journal and coming up with concepts or coming up with little like starts to things.

And even though it feels like I'm not being very productive as a songwriter in the moment, I find that I write my best stuff after I've like gone on a tour as my own artist because I've had really a lot of times just like download my life and my thoughts. Whereas, you know, when we're in L.A. and we're in London and we're in Nashville, like it's quick, quick, on to the next. Yeah, I don't know. I find it a really nice, like, downloading time for me. How are you not burning out? Is it that time? I think the holidays is going to be that time, which it's timing of this is perfect for me, I think. Perfect. But I don't know. I think I'm not burning out because I am genuinely at the place in my career now, which I'm so grateful for. And I've worked really hard to get to where I'm working with artists that I'm just genuinely very inspired by.

And I think, you know, we've all had the moments in our career where we're doing two. a day's and it doesn't maybe feel like the most fulfilling work. We're doing pitch days for, you know, we don't know who's going to end up to. And, you know, a lot of the songs never go anywhere. But I feel like even the songs I've been writing with artists that I'm immensely inspired by, like, even if those songs don't go anywhere, I'm writing with people that I love and I think are so talents. And they bring out the best in me. So that makes it, I think, harder to burn out. But I am very grateful that the holidays are coming out, for sure. If all that happened in your life was that APT came out, you could be able to, you could be

like I'm a successful songwriter. And I feel like, you know, so it's, you know, we had already talked about co and some of those things during our last, you know, during the interview part where I think you have maybe eight songs in the top 40 now or six songs or some crazy number. With APT, how did that happen? Oh, that was such a funny day. That's the type of song that really pushes me to my limits of being a student in a room.

Because I feel like you know my songwriting inclinations enough to know that that isn't a song that if I were like sitting down on acoustic guitar would happen. You know, so that was, I remember walking in. And I don't remember exactly how Rosie was talking about it. But she was basically instructing us on this drinking game, this Korean drinking game. And so her and I were kind of playing it. And as I was learning it, and then Tehran walked in and was like, what are you guys doing? And she said, you know, this funny drinking game that is we play in Korea. And I will give full credit to him where he was like, we should definitely make that song.

That's brilliant. And then, you know, Rosie led the way with how she wanted it to go. And obviously, I'm such a fan of the producers that were in the room that day. And also Tehran's like one of my favorite writers. And it was such a blast. It was like a song that wouldn't naturally come from me. And I really needed Rosie and, you know, her joy and love of her culture in that game. And to like really lead the way on that and to see the life that it has had.

Just so far with Bruno and everything has been really exciting. How did Bruno get attached? I think we've, I mean, I know Rosie's been a fan of Bruno for ages and so have I. And I don't really know what the, you know, links were to get it there. but I know that she went to go see his Vegas residency show and they became pals. And then next thing I knew he was on the song. So I'm very grateful whatever higher power made that happen.

I'm very happy for it. You're nominated for Songwriter of the year again. And the thing is that that would sound more normal if this was an award that's been given out for 60 years. But the Grammys, which I believe were on 62 or 63, three or something like that. You know, they've had songwriter the year, I think three years and you've been

nominated two of the three. Do you feel like the songwriter of the year? That's like hinting back at Julian's question that he asked me last time I saw you. I feel like this body of work I've been a part of this year, I think is my favorite body of work that I've been a part of any year of my songwriting. career. So who knows how long I'm going to be songwriting. And if I ever were to like really take a swing at it, I feel like this year I'm so proud. And obviously, if I get it, that's amazing. If I don't get it, I will still forever be immensely grateful for the artists and the songs that I made this year. So, I mean, I don't know if there's, you know, when you get nominated for things, you realize how true the honor is of being, you know, um, um, When people say, oh, it's an honor just to be nominated. When you see how hard it is to get nominated,

it becomes really, really clear how true that statement is. And, you know, the, I don't know if I've ever seen somebody who's earned the nomination better than you have. And I think it's, you know, I'm a fan and I'm rooting for you because it really is a tremendous year, not just because of Sabrina and Rosie and co. And you have such a wide variety of successes and, you know, the fact that it's different genders, people come from different backgrounds, speaking different languages, all coming to, you know, there, so many of these people are,

being, are, their voices is being heard because of you. your contribution. So I can't wait for to see them announce your name, but if they don't, you should be tremendously proud because this really is a remarkable run. And it says so much about your dedication, your team. Shout out to Gabs. Gab's the absolute goat. She works her ass off day in and day out for me. And I'm so grateful for her. So yeah, if I mostly want to win it so that

Gabbs and I can have like a moment together and she can feel how immense her work has been because none of it would be possible without Gab. So yeah, I mean, I also want to win it because my whole family's coming from Maine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I want to have a celebration with them. I'm like, please don't come all the way from Maine for me and for me to like not win it. But obviously. No, but honest, I mean, how cool is that for, you know, any, for family to be able to see,

to just see you in walking the carpet. is enough. Yeah, it's just so. I know that they're already, they're not going to be prouder if you win. They're already as proud. You know, there's like a scale.

It's like how happy can happy be? You know, it's like you performed in front of 100 people and in front of 60, or whatever, 30,000 people. And when you do that, like you're really happy both times. You know?

Like, they're different. And in this case, like, your family and your friends are proud of you. So, On that note, so excited for people to hear your interview. Welcome back to Los Angeles. And here we go. Here's your interview.

Welcome to And The Writer is. I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's legend is back. Since she was on last, this guest has gone from All Star to Superstar. From nominations including Songwriter of the Year to multiple number one songs with multiple artists, this writer's current run is something few. writers in the history of music have done. And there's more.

She's back to releasing her brilliant music as an artiste. She's so good. So let's get to it. And the writer is Amy Allen. Wow. Wow. Thank you so much, Ross. This is your, this is part two.

This is part two. Look at us. We were just saying you said you were nervous because you said ums and likes in the last episode. Honestly, what can you do? I need this. Maybe this is like a good exposure therapy for me. I'll listen to this whole episode. And like you said, I'm going to start weeding them out myself and just like putting it into practice.

I was saying also when we were talking about this, that this podcast, if somebody asked what I've learned in the podcast, I would say I've learned how to communicate. Because I grew up thinking that the opposite of talking was waiting. not listening. You know, that you're sitting there waiting to see what is it that I have to say next. Yeah, it's a big distinction.

And when you're, most people who do a podcast just want to have a conversation amongst friends. And so they just start doing the thing that you do in real life. Yeah. But it's a weird skill set

that I wish everyone learned early on. I feel like everybody who's listening to this episode should try to record a conversation with someone they love, not someone they like, someone they love for an hour and listen back. And then do that for, you don't have to do it for 200 episodes, but they can do it for a couple times. And it would be, it would, it's mind-blowing how we actually communicate versus what we, how we think we think. Yeah, the narrative we're telling ourselves we're doing. Yeah, that's crazy.

So basically join the club. Okay, I'm happy to be here. Yeah. I will say this. My favorite, I quote you so, often from that episode. It's terrifying. I don't quote anybody from any episodes. But you said, when I said, what was applicable from your soccer days that's usable as a songwriter? Do you know what you said?

I have no fucking clue. You said move through negative space. Negative space. And I used that as, it was like a light bulb went off. Like, oh, yeah, that's sort of how I want to live as a music. because everybody's trying to compete with each other. Yeah. But I feel like you do this so naturally.

Yeah, that's so interesting. You remembered that? I had a soccer coach that used to say that to me all the time because I was like absolutely terrible with like foot skills. I was not a good soccer player by any means. But I was on the varsity team because I was quick and I would like get to the places like the gaps on the field where other people like weren't thinking were the right places to run to.

It like seemed counterintuitive I think to most. And so he thought I was like a decent player because of that. And I do feel like that's applicable to songwriting. It's like moving in these areas, especially in the room when you're like trying to get to learn somebody, like kind of like ebbing and flowing in these spaces where it doesn't maybe mean you're talking the most in the room. But you're like anticipating the next move and like trying to get there and figure it out. And yeah, it's interesting. You have, you know, when we did your first interview, you had back to you with Celine. and without me was obviously huge for Halsey.

Those are really sort of the main, you know, the main records. I don't know if even a door you had come out yet. Yeah. But you were, you know, obviously a very successful writer who had just sort of come into the game with like an incredible one, two punch with those records, maybe one, two, three with those records. And then it sort of goes from, I'm in the. I'm in the circuit.

I'm one of the people everyone wants to have in a session to like the person to have in a session. What is the, what happened over the last few years? What did you figure out or what did the industry figure out that they didn't figure out before? Hmm. I honestly think so much of it for me, it was having the space during COVID, honestly, to like get back to writing by myself again a lot. Like I think when I first started writing for other people, I think most songwriters can relate to this, especially in L.A. Like the cadence is so fucking quick. And the sessions and doing doubles a day.

And like it can be really easy to kind of like make this formula in your head of like how to write a song quick and well and competitively. And I loved the game of that. And then I think during COVID, like really getting back to my roots and listening to the people that made me want to start a songwriting to begin with. like Tom Petty and like John Prine and Cheryl Crow and just like getting back into the craft of like, okay, how I actually resonate with music and crafting a song and making sure each line if it was taken away, like the whole song would fall apart. Like those are the songwriters that I love. Like I think that Petty is one of the best for like each line is building onto the next where like if one of those lines didn't exist like nothing would hit the same way. And I really was like

honing that and focusing on that during COVID, I think, and just getting back to my influences and then re-approaching session life again, like everything kind of changed for me, I would say. And then also just my collaborators now. Like I feel so grateful for artists like Sabrina and, of course, Harry, and so many artists I work with that I'm Olivia, obviously, of course, that I'm just so intensely inspired by and learning from all the time. Well, let's go to your collaborators.

Here's some questions that your collaborators ask you. So Ryan Tudder wants to. to ask you on end the writer is he says Amy if you could be yourself I'm so scared I have more inside jokes with Ryan Tudder than anyone I'm so scared that's good because he has a couple questions um the absurdity uh no sarcasm brilliant singer songwriter your age your talent in any five year window of any decade 1940s to 2000 uh when would it be oh so if you could be yourself in any of these eras between 1940s and 2000 and why Hmm. Okay, I think my heart says that I would want to be like 60s and 70s because just the music that was happening then I think is like the most, I just like, oh, like to be around when like Fleetwood Mac and the stones and shit was like really starting to fucking kick off in big ways would be huge for me.

But I think I probably would have been the most successful like late 90s, early 2000s just because I'm like such a 90s chick and I like loved like a line. honest, all the shit that was happening then. And then also like intense like boy bands. Also Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera, like, kind of feel like I would have killed that era. I'm not going to lie. Yeah. You know, this is you as an artist versus you as a writer too.

Is that when you're using Cheryl Crow and Tom Petty, you know, your Cheryl Crow comes out probably 93, 94. And Tom Petty's obviously was through the late 70s, 80s and into the 90s. but going to those kinds of artists, you know, they were so successful then. So, you know. Yeah. I mean. I think we all think the 60s and 70s until you really think about, at least for me,

I actually think that maybe it's because of nostalgia too. But I think the 90s is such a great time of diverse music that was successful. It was really the prime hip-hop era and it's the prime grunge era and alternate rock era. Even just like hole and stuff like that. I'm like, oh, I would have loved to have been around when that stuff was like really getting made. Okay, so he also has another question. He says, if you could base the music industry in any city in America other than L.A., where would it be? Oh, him and I talk about this all the time.

We really want to uproot the whole music industry, but I have no power over that. So it's a hard thing to do. But I'm from Maine, obviously. So my dream would be for the whole, like, music industry to, like, be in the woods in Maine. That would be so fun for me. But also maybe that would take away what I love about Maine. So maybe not that. But I don't know.

Somewhere that just feels more like immersed in nature, I think. I actually, when I first moved to L.A., I like thought I wanted to hate it just coming from Maine. I was like the West Coast, like a big city. Like it's not for me. I'm going to do one year and then I'll go home. But then I actually loved it because I'm, I love like camping, hiking and I love being outdoors in any capacity. So I've actually kind of love L.A. for the sense that like I can go to Yosemite on one weekend.

I can go to Zion. I can go to Tahoe. It's like Big Bear. I can like go with all these beautiful places and their driving distance. But I mean, L.A. is pretty intense sometimes. It would be nice to be a bit more remote. I mean, we have the doors open right now and you can't hear it. Do you know what I mean?

If you're in New York, that's not a thing. And I love New York. But you can't, if the windows are open, it sounds like we're in the traffic. Yeah, yeah. You're laying in front of a taxi at that point. This is slightly, this is so much more nature as far as any major city. I'm not like L.A. do or die. But I think that there's so much proximity to some nature that, I mean, I didn't grow up with hills.

I grew up in the middle of, you know, Chicago, you have to drive two hours to see a hill. Not a mountain. I'm driving to see a hill. You know, like how, and so this city just feels, still feels magical to me. I agree. I didn't have any of that. I get that. I'm not sure if the, is the stress from Los Angeles or is the stress from the music industry?

I think it's the, I'm pretty used to it now. Now when I go home to Maine, I'm like, whoa, this is really slow, which is nice. It usually takes me like three or four days getting home to, like, actually acclimate to how much more chilled everything feels. I think it's pressure I put on myself. I think it's really self-induced, honestly. I think it's like, I also live in Venice. So I drive like 45, 50 minutes most days in and then back home, which actually like the commute. But I think it's just like the quickness of like being on the highway and being in L.A.

And then getting to my session. And like a lot of times I'm still doing two sessions a day because I actually really like working in the morning. And now that I've found people like Tedder and like a few other people that are down to work in the morning, I'm like, let's fucking go. I've been looking for this crowd. So I don't know. I think it's just like I give myself the fast-paced vibe. I think if I chose to be less like that, I wouldn't notice it really.

I wish people did 8 a.m. sessions. Same. What's everyone doing till 2? I want to know this answer. I also think, does your job, my job description changes throughout the day in a session. In the beginning of the day, I can do all the things.

Yeah. And by the end of the day, I'm better at the, being the umbrella guy in the room, than I am being the guy who does every melody, every lyric, the production, the whole thing. Like in the morning,

it feels... I get that. You're more productive in the morning. It's not that I'm useless in the afternoon, but I'm just more useful in the morning. I get that. Do you change throughout the day or no? I actually think maybe...

And everybody knows in my, like, close group of people that I work with often, that I hate camps. Like, I pretty much exclusively will always say no to a camp. I just don't like them. because I don't like being somewhere. First of all, I don't like working where I sleep. And second of all, I really don't like being an environment

in an environment where I don't know when the end time is going to be, which sounds very counter. It sounds like very counter to being a creative. Because I feel like we all have this idea in our brain that like, oh, you just get like lost in the music and you're in flow state. And like people are always like, oh, I was working until 6 in the morning. I didn't even notice. I'm like, I definitely have those moments.

Like, do not get me wrong. I have those moments where I'm like so in love with what I'm doing. I lose track of like anything else and I'm in it. But I also know that I do my best work when I try to keep it as close to like a real job as possible. Like I really like having the arc to my day of like, I wake up, I go for a run. I see the ocean on my run. And then I go to my job and then I come. I'm called like 630 Amy like infamously in the industry now because I always try to leave at 630.

I love that. And I'm just like I just know I can get what I need to get done in the confines of like 12 to 630. And if you get me later than that, like, I'm not going to be bad, but like, I actually sometimes get more creative. And my friends are like, Amy, you like actually, you like cross the threshold. You're like, way more fun and like we get crazy shit. And I'm like, I get that. Once in a while.

Yeah. Not in sessions, really, but on a camp, the few that I'll do. Well, especially if like an album is being made, made. Some of the camps that you're going to are. I mean. I are good drinking crews. Yeah, they are. I'll only do a camp really if it's like we're doing an album.

And it's like just me. and the crew that are doing the album. And then I have to. I'm like, I can't stay up until four or five in the morning writing if I'm like not a little bit of tipsy or some capacity. So I don't know. I like to be healthy with my job, but. Well, let's go to the next collaborator then.

This makes sense. So Julian Benetta asked on Ann the writer. He's one of the crew that has seen me in my. That is correct. And he says, I actually thought at first I was like, yeah, okay. And I love this question, though. He says, do you know that you are talented? and successful.

Oh, I love Julian. He always grills me on this shit. I actually was having this talk with an artist I worked with the other day where I'm like, I feel like, I don't know if it's like the school system or what puts this into our brain, but I suffer intensely from the like, okay, I'm in fifth grade and now I'm focused on getting to sixth grade. And now I'm focused on getting to, you know, I'm like, I still suffer from that badly where I'm like, it's really, there's like, here you go.

I'm going to be on the train of likes for the next 45 minutes. I'll just go, bing, every time, yeah. I've always suffered from not being present in the moment with successes. It's really, really hard for me. And I think it has allowed me to achieve things I want to achieve in a capacity because I don't get overly excited about anything. I'm just like, okay, tomorrow I'm back into double sessions.

I'm not like going to celebrate for a week. You know, I'm like, it's really tough for me to, I don't know, look at any. I've accomplished and feel like pat myself on the back. But I do feel it in moments. And to answer Julian's questions, I do have those moments when I go home to Maine and I'm with my family. And like it comes up in conversation. Like somebody I'm working with, my sisters are like, oh, that's our fit.

You know, and then I have the moments. But when I'm in L.A. and I'm working, I'm like, it's just tough to tap into that. Like, you know, oh my God, moment of gratitude. This song, it's just, I don't know. I also think struggle with it. You get to these. All right, so by the time this episode comes out, this fact may be true again,

but currently you have the number one and number two song on global, hot 200, Billboard, whatever the statistic is. I think when you are coming up, you have this assumption that you'll get there, and that's when the ticker tape parade starts.

Totally. And in reality, what it is is you go back and with the people that you've been writing with, you call the same team that you have that was there when you had nothing, And everyone is like, it's hard. It's actually harder to celebrate than I think people realize.

You really have to go and put effort in celebrating. Yeah. It's hard to do it. It is hard to do it. And you're also kind of like always a little bit like, who am I? Because like next week there's going to be somebody that, you know, also music is so subjective. Something I love is like, I don't know. It's like such not a quantifiable thing to be proud of sometimes is what it feels like.

It's not like a, or a tangible word is maybe a better word. Like it's, it's hard for me to like hold it up and be like, I did that, you know? It's tough. Yeah. It also, you know, it's like, it's this weird, you know, when do you take your victory lap in a business that doesn't have that finite end? It's not just the sessions that have, that don't always have an out. You don't know. these songs will have some life long after you're done writing.

And so you don't know when is the time that you're supposed to celebrate. You have to celebrate all the wins somehow. Do you do any celebrating? I do, I do, I think I do celebrating in a sense of like once in a while I'll take, like, I'm going to go on like a little five-day trip, which I'm not doing it as a celebration. trip. And I'm just doing it as like, I need this mental health, like little trip. I'm going to go have some days off, not think about music and do that. Or I'll do it like if I'm going camping or something. And that's like my celebration to myself. Who do you go on this trip with?

I'm going on this trip with a friend. Okay. And we're going to Greece and I've never been before. Okay. And I just like never do this. It's also a little bit still toxic of me because I'm going to London for work. And because I'm going for work, I'm like, oh, I could like pop over to Greece. I struggle to be like, I'm just going to go on this, you know. And you're already there. Yeah, I know. It's a thing I need to work through. These are more Julian questions. I would normally do the interview, but these questions are great.

How many more hits until you retire? Him and I talk about this too. We were in Paris doing, or we were in Paris. We were in France like a couple hours away from Paris. And Julian and I like went on a couple long walks at nighttime, one time when I was definitely like a couple cocktails deep. So we have gone into all of this stuff in depth. So that's probably where these are coming from. when I retire

that's like one of those really hard questions where it's like somebody's like when do you feel like you're going to feel accomplished like when are you going to feel happy you know like those questions where I'm like I don't know like do I feel like I've done everything

I want to do and do I feel like I could be like I would be able to retire now and look back on my career and be like I did the thing like no if an honest answer is probably no why what would that thing be

I think well that's the hard part about this It's like there's never, there's not like a title that somebody can earn like CEO. It's like there's not like a thing. So I think for me, I think actually mostly it comes out of my own artistry stuff. I think I've kind of now let go of like needing to have some like thing off a checklist for songs and writing for other people because I've had like a number one thing. I've like accomplished that thing that I think so many writers are like once I get that, then I'm good. I think now for me it's more like building a catalog of songs that when I'm a grandmother one day,

I can play my grandkids and my kids and be like, these still like hit me, like in so many places in my life. They still resonate. I still feel them I'm so proud of them. And you know better than anyone, like as a songwriter, a lot of times those songs we write don't see the light of day for other people. They're just like not the ones that, you know, teams here as like the big hit, you know, the obvious radio thing. So we all have these big graveyards of like our most prize possession songs. And so my whole thing with putting songs out again is just like reviving a lot of these songs I've written for myself just on my guitar and like my kitchen and putting those out

and building a body of work that when I am an old lady, which I often feel like I already am, I can look back and be like, I'm really proud of these. So maybe that will lead to me finding a place of like I could retire now to answer the question. When I have that body of work that feels like, okay, I've really like, put myself into this and put it out and gone, you know. I think that's the key, though, is to put it out. It's not necessarily, it's not the success. It's not the response to those songs, although that would be nice.

Yeah, completely. It really isn't. It's the fact that, oh, no, I release something I spent, this is me. Like, if you really, you can go and find all these things and maybe, you know, your grandkids will live a better life because of how hard you worked in this life. but it'll be the the artistry that you put out that you'll be like all these things were great

and people will tell you about these songs but check this out. Thousand percent and I think it takes a long time to get to that. At least it took me, it's taken me a long time to get to that understanding. And I think now when I'm putting my own music out again, it's just bringing me such joy

because I finally have let go of any feeling of like a response to it. It's just like I'm putting something out that I know, it feels so authentic to me that I love. And it just feels good to know that I'm like building that body of work now. Yeah. And I've like finally turned to this corner where I can just keep building it and I don't, I don't care about any big response to it. It's just like exciting for me to be like, okay, I've been working on songwriting since I was like nine years old. And these are the songs that are like, you know, my craft because of that. And I feel good about that.

Yeah, I have so many questions about the artist thing, but I still have to ask for questions like, have you ever fallen into a cactus? That's Julian too, isn't it? Yeah, for sure. Oh, this is so unfair. Okay, so I honestly, here's the thing. When I go to camps, I do have a couple drinks, you know, maybe like two during a writing session, which has become this big joke that I'm like, ooh-hoo, like, I'm finally letting

loose, which everyone knows I, like, rarely let loose. So the guys all have this joke with me that when I go on camps, I'm like, I have fallen into a cactus on a camp and I was like bleeding out everywhere. And wonderful Sabrina was like picking the, you know, fucking things out of my legs for like two hours. But I sent the guys a picture that day because I chipped my front tooth. Like half of it came off. And I'm like, I just do this stuff all the time.

He's, the cactus thing was funny because two other times on camps I've also bled from like falling onto like, I just, this happens to me. You commonly, Clemsley or specifically when you have had the two-stopics? No, every day. I actually found this out. I was in Montana with my friend last summer. and we were doing archery, not shooting real things, but like little targets. And I would like be aiming at how they said to aim it.

And I would let it go. And it would be like 15 feet off the mark every time. So I had my eyes checked out. And there's this thing where sometimes one of your eyes sees significantly on a different plane than your other eye. And so my, like I fall off curbs and shit all the time because I'm, I don't see things. Like nothing lines up like this. Your eyes move their negative space. Yeah.

My eyes are moving into another dimension of negative phase. Yeah. Who's more annoying, annoying John Ryan or Julian Binan? Right. And The Writer is part two is just Julian Beneta roasting me. I love this. I'd say they're equally. And I love them both equally as, you know, they're just my brothers at this point.

Okay. Well, Sabrina Carpenter asks on And The Writer is. She says, I'd ask her how she finds working with extremely difficult pop girls. I love her so much. Sabrina is literally the least difficult artist. I just have so much joy working with Sabrina. I think she has probably the best personality of, like, anyone I've met in my life. I'm always laughing and it makes our songs so fun.

And we also can write really deep, beautiful songs. But I've actually, this is a big thing in my writing as well. Coming out of COVID was when I started first working with Sabrina as well. And I don't know if you've found. felt this way, but for so long, I only was really having success in writing songs that I felt like I want the listener to, like, rip their hearts out to these songs. I just, for some reason, I saw songwriting as, like, a box like that. And, like, without me was kind of like that. And Back to You was kind of like that. And I think working with Sabrina, who is more than capable

and also writes the most heartbreaking and beautiful things ever. Like, I love writing those songs with her. She also opened this door in my brain to like, oh, songwriting can be fun and witty and playful. And people actually love that. And I don't know why that took me so long to click because so many of John Prine and like Dolly Parton lyrics are hilarious and witty and playful. Like in spite of ourselves, John Prine's song. Like there's so many funny lines. And I just never thought I was capable of doing that. And then just having the chemistry I do with Sabrina and getting able to write songs encompassing like the first.

fact that I have a personality as well and her personality is phenomenal. Like, it's just so fun. And there are difficult pop artists, but Sabrina is absolutely the furthest bump. She's so self-aware. So self-aware. She's, and she's really funny and she's really good. And I just think a lot of people don't, I think this is part of the music. This is a bigger thought, but the music industry tends to think that pop females,

It's really misogynistic. Tend to think pop females are somehow puppets for the people around them and tend to think that the male pop artists are the ones that still write. But when you look at it's like... It's honestly a wild concept. But it's weird. It's like Michael Jackson didn't write like man in the mirror. Do you know what I mean?

It's not like... A thousand percent. I mean, we know of a band that's turned pop group that doesn't write anything. We know these pop artists don't write anything. And then we know Katie Perry actually writes. And we know that like, you know, we know Sabrina writes. We know that Olivia writes. Olivia, Taylor.

Like, name one. They just keep going. Charlie. Like, there's endless. There's so many. And the female artists in the business are often the best writers in the business. And I think that that's so overlooked. And I, this is an aside.

But I still, that makes me respect people like pink a lot more that when she does cut outside songs. And look, to Michael Jackson's credit, sans all the other shit. He did, he still also wrote hits. But the fact that pink will take an outside song and then also write a hit and not try to take credit for the song that she didn't write. Like that's why the music and that's why she was, she had such longevity. That's just an aside. That's a whole other. Why don't artists take outside songs anymore?

Hmm. My manager's in the building. Maybe we should turn the mic over, but I... I know there are a few, and like we're all, you know, there's like a giant race for that. I think when the touring stopped during the pandemic, I think artists, at least this is how I think of it. And the artists I've talked to, I think this is a bit of it, which is like a lot of people went into the studios then. And a lot of artists that were constantly touring and weren't always going to be going in the studio. studios to be writing all the time, started doing it and realized how fun it is and how

like amazing it is to be a part of the creative process. And now maybe that has like slowed the rate of artists that are just like, oh yeah, like I'll take this song, this song, this song, this song. But I mean, hey, I've heard like some of the, my favorite records in the entire world are pitch songs. So I just, you know, I think it'll come back around. Everyone's busy with touring again. So we'll see. If you're a songwriter or composer, you have to join a performing Rights Organization or PRO. Performance royalties are an essential part of your income, if not your only income. ASCAP is America's first PRO and the only one that operates on a not-for-profit basis, which

means the money they collect goes to their songwriters, composers, and music publishers. And ASCAP supports you in a lot of different ways, even beyond the royalties. They run workshops and networking events for creators. like the annual ASCAP Experience. Check it out at ASCAPexperience.com. They got tons of resources on their website to help you learn about the music industry. They've even got a wellness program. I really respect that ASCAP is a true democracy. AsCAP members elect their board of directors, and the board is made up of music, writers, and publishers. They've got over one million writers, including this episode's guest, Amy Allen.

Writers can join for free, learn more at askcap.com forward slash why join, and follow at ASCAP on socials. Our good friends at ChartMetric have all the data you need to power your music career, from playlist placements to stream counts, to follower demographics, and many more. It's never been easier to understand

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and any of the artists and writers on this podcast. Plans start as low as $10 a month. Learn more and get started today at ChartMetriks. metric.com. Okay, so, you know, since we did our interview, you know, like we said, there have been a few records that did really well, but I feel like everything really changes. Even some of these things where, you know, the 1035, the Tiesto song was like, good size hit that you'd hear on the radio a bunch and my mind and me for Selena's

stuff like you had things in you you had songs that were being heard that were doing really well but again it's just so different than what happens really in this last year and i how you ended up up being the the collaborator and not the voice of multiple artists is really impressive because again we know a lot of writers who are alphases in a room where they need to be the actual artist. But you write differently for tape than you do for Olivia than you do for Sabrina. Do you feel in that environment that you are a therapist? Do you feel like you adjust your skill set to match their skill set?

Or is it unintentional? I think... Are these songs closer than I think? I think that I... Well, I do think maybe that they are closer than we all think. I think production changes drastically. I was talking to this about this with somebody the other day where I was like...

When without me first came out, I was like... I was shocked at that song. You know, I was like, it doesn't sound like something I would normally write. And then I played it acoustically. Like, we were writing on a guitar, but I was playing it acoustically one time. And I was like, oh, this is like complete... Like, I hear my... You know, like I, I think production changes everything so much.

But I also think, and I would never say that I have a superpower in anything because I just feel imposter syndrome in every aspect of my life. But I do think something that has helped me a lot in my career is having been in bands my entire life. And so I'm pretty decent at entering, finding an entry point into something that, like, makes sense to me and that I can be a collaborator in and take. I've just listened to so much different, so many different types of music my whole life growing up. And I think that that gives me just a lot of different ways to access how to do something. Like this year I've been doing it a lot more country. Like that is nothing I would have ever seen myself doing. And I'm like pretty seamlessly loving it and like getting cuts and doing it.

Like it's been something I've loved to do forever. And I think it's just because. Yeah, the co record was huge. Yeah, the co has, I did like most of the co album, which I've been psyched about. And there's a bunch of other ones that haven't come out yet, so I don't know if I can talk about them. But I think just like having a love of songwriting as like from the greats, like Dolly and like I already said, John and Tom Petty. And like a song is a song. And being able to enter any session regardless of the genre, I'm like everybody just wants a good song in the end.

And it also helps a lot when people's tastes align. Like my taste and Sabrina's taste is so similar, which makes writing with her so fun because when she's showing, me references and I'm showing her references, we're always, like, right on the same plane and, like, understanding, like, speaking the same language. Tate has been really fun for me, too, because Tate listens to music that I don't necessarily always listen to, and she'll come in with, like, a bunch of, like, Bad Bunny Records and Rosalie and, like, all these people that are, like, so incredible, but not necessarily I'm, like, you know, listening to every day.

You're not as affluent in it. Right, but it's really cool to then, like, take tracks that are, you know, in that world and then write like a really emotional pop top line on them like that is new to me and fresh and something that's like kind of like re-envisioning types of songs that I would do. I mean the Olivia stuff I don't you know Dan's been on the podcast. Olivia hasn't I'm not really sure how many songs she writes for an album so it's hard to tell for that but I know Tate wrote a ton of records. She's a phenomenal writer.

but you ended up with eight of 14 on the album why do your songs rise to the top and then of those of those 14 songs you end up with the single if not the first singles i don't even you know like how does that happen what is it that what do your songs do that all these great co-writers who are trying to do a similar thing what do what advice would you give no to the music industry of people who... I hate those questions. What is it the... What is the secret sauce?

I don't know. I think I just get... I don't know. I honestly think I was a really quiet kid. And you were talking earlier. I don't even remember if the mics were on when we were talking about this, about the difference...

No, I think it was right at the beginning. The difference between like listening and what was the word? Oh yeah. The opposite of talking is waiting versus... Right, waiting versus listening. And I think my whole... life up until I went to college was listening. I was like the third of three girls and

kind of like following suit with whatever they did. And I just think it was in my nature to just be a listener. And I think I've gotten really good at listening to somebody right at the beginning of the session or even when I'm just getting to know them and being like, oh, I fully relate to you. Like everything you're saying is something that I feel intrinsically. And it's really easy with Olivia and Tate and Sabrina because, you know, I don't know, I just get them on like a pretty fundamental level. I just, I love those girls and we've gone all through like the same emotion, you know, we just, we've gone through a lot of the same things and I see a lot of myself in them. And I don't know. I think it always comes down to like the relationship you have and the honesty

and like the trust that's there in the session. I don't even know how much it has to do with how good of a songwriter. No, that's fair. I am. Like, I think there's like, when you have like an emotional connection with somebody and you, you understand them and they feel understood, you can just write better songs. That was like a really soppy answer, but it's a great answer. What about Justin Timberlake and InSink?

When if you grew up in the late 90s, early 2000s, and here you are like reliving the fucking glory days. Like hardcore. What a year. I mean, that is so bizarre. The phone call must have been,

no. You know, like there are certain names where I'm sure you get a phone call and you're like, Nah, not me. Even the, you know, even the Harry, those guys, whatever, you know, these people, you know, Sean Mendez, any of those people that are, it's different. Like, they kind of broke after you were, it is different than. I didn't know how much of an impact it would have working with somebody that I grew up listening to. Because I had never had that before. I'd never worked with anybody that I was like, oh, I, like, my sisters and I rinsed this album.

Like, I, like, this is, like, in my DNA, this album. So I, I think I, like, really underestimated when I got asked to do the, a bunch of days. I mean, I worked with Justin a lot. And I love Justin. And, yeah, I think I fully underestimated how it would feel the first time I was actually in a session with him. Because I don't really get phased by people at this point. You know how it is. Like, when you're really used to working with artists, it's hard.

If I met like Mick Jagger tomorrow, I'd like pee my pants. But for the most part, like, there's very few people that in the music would do that to me. I saw James Marston at a party last year and I like lost my mind. It's so random. But I don't know. Actually, we worked together for the first time during COVID and we were having like our, I don't know, test results or something. And they read out his birthday and then they read out my birthday and we had the same birthday. And it was like, yeah.

I pretended like I didn't know he was my celebrity birthday party my whole life. I was like, oh my goodness. That's crazy. No way. You were born at 735 a.m. He's like, it doesn't say that. You're like, oh, funny. That's so strange.

Louisiana, right? Yeah, it was amazing. I think, yeah, I have absolutely a joy to work on that stuff. The Co. Wetzel stuff is awesome. Like, shout out Ben Madahi and crew over there. Like, what, how did you get involved in that? That's not, that's a strange casting. Yeah, that was also another one where my manager, Gabs was like,

what do you think about, you know, doing these days? Also, it was a camp, which I... Yeah, love. You know how I feel, especially with, I didn't know anybody. I didn't know Gabe Simon at the time. I didn't know Co. I didn't know anybody that was going. So I was like, this is tough because I am in kind of like over my head with country.

I don't really fully have the lay of the land there. And Coe is like a specific country artist. He's like a Texas country artist. And I was like, okay, this isn't going to be writing a song that, you know, like Justin Bieber could also sing. This is going to be writing like his song. His song. So I was really scared. But the second I got there, I felt, I don't know why.

I felt so comfortable. There's moments where I think we all have when you walk into a session, you're like, I don't, I feel like I've never written a song before. Yeah. Like actually, that's me every day for the first, like 10 seconds. But then for some reason there's sessions or there's certain artists where I just sit down and I'm like, I know exactly what I'm doing today. And Coe was one of those moments where I was just like, I don't know, I oddly feel like Queen was like a weird infillette fat bottom girls type stuff. Like there was like this weird like stadium rock thing that I just from like hours of driving every day to and from school. And like I lived in like the middle of nowhere in Maine every day we'd have to drive an hour and hour out.

My dad just like schooled me on so much like classic rock. And I feel like a lot of stuff comes back to that for me. Sure. It's weird. Like I underestimate how much that understanding of that genre of music and that time and of like great songwriting, like, really allows me to write the songs I'm writing today. And I just instantly like loved co. And I just understood.

I just got it. I don't know why. One of the things that I like when the fact that you're going to Nashville and doing well means that you're not going there with the intent of showing them how to write a song, which I think is the... I'm trying to learn how to write a song. Yeah, and I think the best...

If you go to Nashville and you try to write a country song and you're not a country writer, it gets real weird. It gets real weird. You know, if you've never grown up on a dirt road... To be fair, I did, though. I grew up on a gravel road. Maybe that's a huge country music like scene.

It's wild. Oh, totally. It's crazy. I think we always think of country music synonymous with the South, but I'm like anywhere where you grew up in a small town, which is most of America. Yeah. Countries it. I grew up between Chicago and Milwaukee, right? And this town I grew up in was called River Woods because it had like a river and woods.

And woods. And there was a mobile station at the time. And that was it. That's all. That was the only like thing. We were really close. We're 45 minutes an hour north of Chicago. So it wasn't like we were that remote.

But we did grow up on a road that wasn't paved. And every time I go to Nashville, I can hear the crickets. Do you know what I mean? I can hear, I'm like in, I put myself in the most country place I ever lived. Yeah. I didn't think of it as, it's not really that country, but it still was like, it still was an unpaved road. Yeah.

It was still far enough away. Still got that dirt road, babe. That you could still have like an un-in-courpo. My parents live in unincorporated. I remember the Applebee's ribbon cutting in my town. That was like, that was like huge shit happening. That's pretty remote. Also, it's really weird.

So many Nashville artists and writers, anytime I meet them for the first time, they're like, we all thought you lived in Nashville. It's this weird thing. I get it probably once a week where people think I'm a Nashville writer. Rarely ever. I don't know why that's a thing.

I think they think my style of writing is so songwriter-y that I have to be. I'm like a Nashville writer, which I will take as a compliment. How do you not burn out? I was just talking to Gabs about this the other day. This is a really troubling thing that for any songwriter listening, I would love to have this conversation with them because I don't notice burnout happening until I get to a point where I'm just like, okay, I need to like, I need to take a beat. But sometimes that's like way longer than it should be. And the tough part for me is that when I think I'm getting there is right now I feel like I'm there.

but the past two months I feel like I've been writing my favorite material I've written in a really long time and sometimes when I feel like I'm right at the end of my rope it's almost like one of those like Hail Mary's at the end of the day in a session where you're like fuck if we have nothing to lose

let's see what happens then you write the best thing it's like a long form of that for me sometimes where I'm like I feel like I'm right on the edge of burnout and now I'm all of a sudden getting my favorite stuff so I just keep going keep going keep going which isn't healthy I know that but the momentum is hard to stop and it's also hard to pick up

again when you take that break and because we know that it's like it's might as well just keep going yeah i try to think of it a lot of times i get asked about writers blog which i know we all do i might have said this the last time we talked you get writers block i well i don't because i don't care any writers block i i don't anymore because well i'm also also collaborating with people if i was sitting at home by myself i'm on a guitar five days a week writing i would get terrible writers block yeah but i think because i'm writing i'm like always in a room with somebody and having a conversation it's like hard to get it. But some teacher had at Berkeley said to me one time, and I love this. And I always say this one's at people ask me about it is the teacher was like, there's no such thing as

writer's block that actually doesn't exist. But there's just input periods and output periods in life. And that helps me all the time. Because I feel like sometimes and I feel like I'm on the edge of burnout, I'm like, okay, I'm just approaching an input period where I just need to like stop, that stop the output and just like listen to new music, listen to old music. Just like read poetry, you read books, just like take that beat. And then I can still in my head be thinking of it as I'm working because I get like paralyzed if I think I'm not working sometimes. So it's like it's good for me.

I'm like, okay, it's still part of something. I'm doing something productive. I'm just like allowing life to happen to me and like taking things in. And that helps. When people retire, they often, that's when. Yeah, the hobbies. The crazy hobbies arise. Yeah, like what do you do?

If some people aren't. Join a badgammon club. Maybe people aren't really made to do. Yeah. Maybe people aren't really made to do long breaks. Maybe we are supposed to just fight through the momentum. And whenever you burn out is the end. That's the end.

That's the end. All right. Your music, I'm so happy you're finally releasing music again. And I'm sure some of it is now that you're releasing independently. Right. With AWOL. Well. But yeah.

Independent being not with a major. Yeah, not with a major. Yeah. That's a huge deal. difference. We have a lot of friends, you know, at Warner. Also, weird time to be signed and during a lot of different things. What is it, what is your experience releasing stuff in this era for you? It's honestly been amazing. Making the record is one of my favorite things that's ever happened who did you make it with. I did a lot of it with Ethan Grusco, who's one of my all-time favorite

collaborators like across the board hands down. He does all the Ryan Beattie album like boy genius Phoebe. He's just unbelievable. He's the nicest guy in the world and so inspiring to me. So I did a bunch with him. I did a lot with this producer, writer called Jake Weinberg, who actually is the first person I've ever signed. I signed him with Gabs. And I heard something of his like a year ago online. He worked on this amazing artist project called Quinny. And I heard one of the first person. I heard one of the songs and I instantly DMed him and I was like, I don't know where you live, but the production on this song is one of my favorite things I've heard in a long time. Like, would you ever, I don't know, we're going to write a song together?

And he was like, I live in L.A. Let's do it. And he just blew my mind and just him as a person. And so I did a lot with him. I did some with John Hill, who's like a longtime friend collaborator, Henry Kwapis, who works on the Dijon stuff, Nami. Like I just, yeah, I got to like bring in all the friends on this one, which was very fun. And it feels great to release independently because of what we were talking about earlier, which is just like taking the pressure off in a big way for me of like what a response is.

And I feel like three years ago when I like just had signed to a major and the pandemic started like literally the day I signed, it was there was just so much pressure. Everything was like unstable. It felt like all of a sudden I needed to like make this really clean packaged image and album of who I am. and this has been so much more organic. And I like everything so much more because it just is coming from like a place of just like love and wanting to make it versus making it from a place of like, oh, this is what I feel like I need to be doing. You know, it's like a different entry point altogether for me.

And I've been loving it. What's the goal? The goal is literally what the being a grandmother and playing it back for my grandkids and being like, this makes me feel good. Are you going to tour? Yeah. I'm doing a few, I'm doing like two weeks in Europe in the fall. I'm opening for a show at the Greek for bleachers in September, which I'm psyched about. I get offers from friends all the time to like go up on these big tours and open for them, which I love.

I love playing shows. I'm like such a band person at heart. I've been in bands my whole life. But I also love writing songs. And so it's like this ebb and flow of like what actually, you know, is good for my mind and body and soul right now. and yeah. I'm kind of taking it as it comes, but I'm really psyched about the album.

I've never been as excited about songs. I've written as these songs. So that makes me good. How do people market songs in 2024? I mean, you're asking the wrong person. I'm so bad at that type of thing. That's really what's always kept me from like going hard for the artist thing

is I'm like, I have so much respect for artists that are geniuses at it and are really like it comes effortlessly to them. Like I look at people like Sabrina and Tate and Olivia and like all these, artist that I work with and I'm like you just get it you're like clocked into it and you understand it and you're so good at it and it takes so much like you just have to be wear a thousand

hats these days to do the thing you have to wear a thousand hats doing what you're doing too you do you you do you just don't have to be like the front word but you don't see them as hats that are heavy because you're it's so it's as easy to you the hats you wear as their hats are I think anything like frontward facing to me is like a much heavier hat. Yeah. It's a much bigger, scarier hat. It's a sombrero maybe.

Yeah. And the one I feel like is a little like, I don't know, the little Abu hat from Aladdin. That's terrible. Strike that. Nope. Staying. Definitely staying.

Great reference. I actually was at, I was at the Songwriter Hall of Fame this week and Tim Rice was there who did a bunch of those songs. Yeah. And you're just like, I listen to. those songs on, you know, Aladdin and Lion King and stuff like that. And I'm like, man, I don't know where I went wrong. Like, I can't do the Howard Ashman thing. Those, those writers, it's a weird thing. I'm not sure if that's better songwriting or if that's just nostalgia

that makes it so great. But when you listen to it, the skills set in melody and lyric writing is just mind. John Ryan was saying this to me the other day, who's also one of my main collaborator, so I love dearly. But we were talking about, fuck, what's that song called? That's like, Tale of's Oldest Time. He's like, the whole thing is five.

Every part of the melody. Da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. The whole melody is just that. And it's like, who thought, how? How would you think of that? It never breaks. And it's so catching. It's so good.

And it's like simple but also genius. Some of those songs are just nuts. It's the discipline in that world. The restraint. is wild. It's the thing that I respect so hard. I'm really tired of the like grocery store list songwriting right now. It's terrible.

I can't. What happened to like writing, what I talked about earlier with like every line needs to be there. And if one was missing, the song goes to shit. Like I love that songwriting. And I am ready for that type of songwriting to come back to like, these are the songs.

You know, I think we all need to practice a little bit more restraint. I sent, I sent your manager a song, two days ago because she's also my publisher a song where it's also like five five five five five wait really yeah the whole time except for the very last line

which is seven and I'm and I like counted just the discipline and then wait what was the song it's just a song I sent her like oh you wrote it yeah yeah so you're a genius so you're a genius too you tapped into this the song may not be good it's just the discipline of going through

It's a grocery list song but written into the five things. Well, but that weird grocery, the diary thing from, the thing that COVID brought was this intimacy where people could write a song. They performed it in a way that their little sibling was asleep next door. Everything was like this. Because they weren't performing live. So they never had to sing over tens of thousands of people. They had to sing over nobody.

And that silence is what we were all dealing with every single day. And I can't wait till there This this the discipline in songwriting I can't wait till that comes back Because I do think there's a reason why twinkle twinkle Little Star lasts so long Why that's still a heater Max said the

The other day Like this like a year ago Was talking about You know That it would be like And I I Will always

Love you. That's how you, that's how he's... That's in 2024, how somebody would sing that song. That's how someone was singing now. And you'd be like, it's like, it's hard to hear because you know what I'm saying so well. Although, shout out to my girl Sabrina. She's been covering that's Olivia Newton-John. But now.

And I'm like, I listen to her do that and I'm like, oh my fucking God. Like a singer, a singer, singer, singer. But I know exactly what you mean. She is crazy control, too. It's become very trendy. need to have this way underperformed whisper thing. And I, it was cool when it started. And in terms of like the grocery list songwriting,

it's the worst that we've got everyone, people trying to repeat this same trend over. I think the trend has gone on for a long time. Yes. But I do understand where it started from because I love writing very conversational lyrics. Like that is great to me. Like something that's very accessible and feels like you're like talking to

somebody like this. I get why those hit. But I do think there's like an extreme of that where you're just saying every thought that passes through your brain with no editing and then it's kind of like how many of those songs?

We're just filling the world with, you know, things about, I don't know. I bet that if you look at. Turkey that you bought at Ralph's that day. That was not a great, can we strike that too? No.

Absolutely not. The billion, if you look at the billions list on Spotify, I would bet that less than 5% of those songs are the long, are the,

a thousand percent. So like, you're talking about a, trend that will be generally. It's a trend that gets cult fans, though. It really does. Those artists have cult fan bases.

It gets, it gets, it gets, it depends what your goal is. Yeah. If you're the artist and you want to communicate with your fans in a very intimate way, that really works, and it works over and over again. And we have a lot, there are a lot of artists that are making a quality living doing that. That is not really my, I think the problem I have when I go into. rooms like I only swing for the fences.

Well you also can't, none of those songs will ever get hit. Like no artist would pick up those songs. Those songs are getting written by the artists that are singing those songs. So there's no reason for you and I to get in a session tomorrow and try to write one of those songs. I do say that a lot to artist. This is some advice for people who are going into sessions with an artist that is really artisty that most of the time I'm like, you don't need me to write a song.

You already write the songs So if you are here Let's write a song you would never write Yeah I fully get that That has become something that I'm now Confident enough Just in this past year of writing

Where I'm like I feel confident enough To have that conversation Yeah Because that is a hard thing to say That is like It's tough to be like Look at an artist

And I and be like We're gonna do something that scares you today Yeah yeah yeah And have them not be like fuck you and walk out It's tough Yeah But yeah, I get it. All right.

Everyone's going to ask, why didn't you ask about Greedy Moore? Songs of Smash. Good job. Thank you so much. I love my collaborators. That was a really big song. And what else did we not ask? Pretty much.

Everybody stream as fresh around, please, please, please. Yeah, I mean, those songs are currently just, Matt. Stream them. Like, by the time this comes out, maybe then we'll have like some gauge. We don't know what those songs are going to do. They're already smashes. So the question is like, how far do they go? How long do they go?

And I'm sure you have the next 10 songs with both of them. So we're very excited about. We just need to have this conversation in a year and a half. Yeah, we'll circle back. That's just so crazy. I mean, I know we're talking about somebody else who's about to be on the podcast. It was 20-something number one songs since they were last on. But it really wasn't that long ago that we talked.

It was like three years ago? 30 years ago. But it feels like 30 years ago. Two and a half. Well, thanks for doing this podcast again. Of course. Nobody think about how many times I said like and um because it's just, I'm just embarrassed by it.

What I'm going to do is, I'm going to find it. I did just put attention to it just then. I want to, I think someone should, people should take the likes and ums and make remixes just using the likes and ums and send it to us. And I promise you, I will make sure that Amy here is all done. Thank you. No, I appreciate you. I'm so like, you know, it's like weird to say you're proud, but like it's just you root for people that you like.

And so keep doing really good songs and, you know, come hang out and let's write songs. Thanks for us and Joe and everybody here. Thank you.