And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 2: J Kash

Episode Date: February 6, 2017

A star in the music community, not only for his writing but also for his Phoenix story of rising up after hitting rock bottom. He is a true legend in the making who’s only just begun to tell his story. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey guys, this is and the writer is with Ross Golan. I've written with hundreds of writers and artists over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life and the industry, politics, composition, whatever. If you ask me, songwriters are some of the most worldly and intelligent people I've ever come across. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs. And most importantly, who the people are who write the songs. I'm co-producing this with my friend Joe London,

who's nominated for a Grammy this year. He records every interview and makes sure we sound like angels. So if you like what you hear, please rate us on iTunes, or whatever your preferred podcast listening site is. In this episode, we meet with Jacob Casher, aka J. Cash. I'm not sure we'll ever have an interview with someone more prolific. He's a hit writer and a producer in the true sense. He compiles teams of music makers

and Outcomes chart-topping songs. Right now he has Maroon Fives Don't Want to Know, which just went number one. B.B. Rex's I Got You, which was the most added song at radio, and Zara Larson's So Good, which was announced this week. Pretty impressive for a white Virginia rapper who used to mow lawns. Let me set the scene for you. We recorded this at the Great Conway Studio, which is the Holy Grail of Recording locations. It's secluded in private, and yet some of the world.

The world's biggest rock stars are there, sharing the same kitchen as you. Some characters in this story we refer to by their first name. They are. Kevin Rudolph, the artist who did let it rock. He signed Jay to his first co-publishing deal. Dr. Luke, one of the greatest producers in the past 15 years, who still co-publishes Jay. Gabe Supporta, who is the frontman of Cobra Starship, the band that recorded Good Girls Go Bad. Mike Karen, head of ANR for Warner Records and founder of APG,

Phil, an up-and-coming producer signed to Jay, Benny Blanco, who we interviewed last week, Max Martin, greatest writer of our generation, Ammo, an A-list producer with whom Jay wrote Sugar, and Yon Carlson, Best Instrumentalist Producer in the game. Again, if you like what you hear, please rate us on iTunes or whatever your preferred podcast listening site is. and check us out on Spotify.

We have a playlist for this episode so you can hear some of this writer's biggest hits. Without further ado, here is and The Writer is. Welcome to End the Writer is. I am your host, Ross Golland. Today's guest, in his words,

doesn't play an instrument or sing well. He's kind of tone deaf. He doesn't own a MacBook Pro. He's uneducated and can't spell for shit. He believes that if you have to look at your phone or a piece paper to remember the lyrics they probably suck. And yet, this man has written multiple number one songs in multiple formats. But let me tell you in my words that I've never worked with

another writer who can take any concept, no matter the level of sophistication, and put it into words we all understand. He didn't go to college, but he's smarter than most of us. And the writer is from Virginia Beach. He's a beast and one of my closest collaborators, my friend Jacob Casher, aka J. Cash. Hey. Since we did this last time, you did five or six songs on the Megan Traynor album, including No, which I saw on a bunch of, like, end of the year list as, like, best, you know, one of those, like, best top hundred songs.

Like, it's been listed all over the place. So that was big. You had the 1D single, perfect. You had the Charlie Puth, Selena single, which, in a weird show is, like, low-key, like my favorite song from last year. I told you that, though. Like, that's like one of those songs where I wish I wrote it. Yeah.

You know? Yeah, I really love that song. Yeah. Maroon 5, you kind of get to reshape the new phase for them. Totally. And you're executive producing it. This is true. Which is in itself an accomplishment, let alone, like, the actual scene, the success of the songs.

And it's cool to see, like, you know, we're at Conway Studio right now. And the fact that we used to come to this studio, both of us, working with different people, but it wasn't like you call the call box now and you're like, I'm here to see J-Cash. You know, like that's sick. You know, like it's moved from being like, oh yeah, we're young writers to, I mean, running the show is pretty crazy. Yeah, I mean this studio is so significant for me in my career Because when I first moved out here This was one of the first studios I worked in

And it's my favorite studio on earth And you walk in here in the magnitude of people There's only three rooms And it's always just filled with the biggest best people And you know for years I was just so lucky To just be here on other people's merit And now that like I get to you know Lockdown one or two or sometimes even three of these rooms

And have some of the biggest clients in the music business And all the best songwriters and producers kind of, you know, rally here and get to, in some ways, be like a coordinator and an overseer and a collaborator. Does that add pressure for you? No. It actually makes me feel better because I used to feel pressure because I used to be like, oh my God, like how much does the studio cost a day?

Like, if I don't write something great, you know, like, I remember back in the day, somebody from a label put me here for a week to do something for their artists. And there was like an unlimited food budget. and me and one of my producer friends just got fucked up here for a whole week. We just ordered Nobu every day. And we ordered like Jordans and hoodies on the food budget. And we didn't get anything done. You know, it was like a total wash.

And, you know, and I got a lot of, you know, I caught a lot of flack for that. And then that was like, that was when I was. How early on was that? It was really early on. I mean, it was in the beginning. When was the beginning? I mean, this had to be 2009 or 10, you know. You've lived out here that long?

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, maybe 11. I'm not great with timelines. I've been sober for three and a half years, so anything before that is just a fucking a cloud. But yeah, so I'm going to be terrible with timelines, so don't ever quote me. How much does sobriety change your writing process? It changed everything.

I mean, you know, I had a lot of hits when I was fucked up or a moderate amount, and now I feel like my writing stock. my ability to see things through the amount of ideas I have I can never believe how much better I am now my career is just and my life has exponentially risen and is still rising and I know it plays a big part of it

because I mean I miss weed every day it was the first thing I ever loved besides my parents you know like I loved weed since I was a little kid obsessing in love with it you know do you still think about it? Totally yeah sort of like an ex-girlfriend kind of

Yeah, I just don't think there's like a cure for sobriety. I think it's just like, or sorry, a cure for being an addict. And I didn't quit. I didn't get sober because I was addicted to weed. I got sober because I was addicted to weed and pills. And I was addicted to anything that got me fucked up, you know, minus putting a needle in my arm or, you know, smoking rocks. Right. You know.

And did the music industry, like, do you think that that added to the problem? Yeah, I think. I think it did because, you know, I come from like a really great family who always worked hard and I always had everything I needed. Like I'm not, you know, claiming that I, you know, that I grew up like super poor or anything. But I definitely didn't grow up rich. Your dad owned a... Well, he owns like a mom and pops radio station now that does good. My dad was always in the music business. He managed like the big urban station where I'm from. That's how I got like into music. And you know, my mom was a teacher and they did fine. But, you know, I, you wake up one day with a, with an enormous check for, hundreds of thousands of dollars and you've probably never had more than like 1,200 bucks to your name at once. I mean, you know, you get a little rowdy, you know? Is that, was that from like the, where did, what's your first big check from? It was from Good Girls Go Bad by Cobra Starship. Oh, so it wasn't like this is, is that, is that after the, like, let it rock and all the

Kevin Rudolph's, yeah, but I don't, that's how you got it. Well, I had a bunch of, you know, it's funny if, if, if, I think, I guess we should give like some background because obviously I know you well but you grew up in Virginia Beach I know you kind of like you you know fast forward through a lot of childhood you end up in Miami yeah and as a rap

as a rapper a failed rapper at this point you were already you already like marked yourself as failed by the time you moved to Miami or did you go it terrible terrible failed white rapper where were you when were you a successful like when in your head were you like oh was it high school that you're like I'm a fucking sick rapper oh yeah yeah totally I was like you couldn't tell me I wasn't jZ right you know um did did everyone else in high school think of you as jz because you're a good rapper everybody was on my dick I was the man you know yeah uh yeah I used to be

like I think I've always been good with words I like listening back to my old rap stuff is brutal like I used to be really embarrassed about it now I just think it's funny but you know I the thing about rap for me was it was like an outlet you know the only musical outlet i really had i i love rap music still to this day and i did back then but it was the only thing i could actually do with my voice you know because i'm such a shitty singer but i actually really liked rap were there melodies because you're i think you're really good melody writer you just can't sing them well yeah i i can't convey that you know like were you when you were doing those raps in high school and stuff are you singing i mean not no not

at the beginning i mean is i got a little bit older like um or you know a little bit further along I was kind of like on to this like because you know I really grew up like loving pop punk and rock in like 90s alternative music so it was so many things. But yeah I was kind of doing this like emo kind of thing at one point too that wasn't registering to anyone because they just wanted to hear me do that like hard shit. The funny thing is I was like I was like completely talking out of my ass when I was rapping. I was, you know, I was talking about like selling drugs and like carrying guns and because the thing was it wasn't like I was trying to, you know, hindsight, which is always 20-20, I wasn't trying to lie to make people think that I was something I wasn't. I wanted to make the shit that I liked. Right. But I just didn't sound like... Authentic. Yeah, and vocally, like my voice didn't come out of speakers sounding like Jada kiss or J-Z or like any of my

favorite rappers. Like, I just sounded like me. Yeah. You know, which is pretty close to what I sound like right now except I used to kind of like twist my you know I used to like I like a certain Fred Durst yeah it was like it was like a mix between like a terrible Fred Durst and like a kind of a JZ impression and like I don't know what the fuck I was thinking I can't do it again that was one of my favorite uh one of my favorite things you did in the last like month was when we were talking about Little Red Corvette yeah and you just know all the lyrics to it and I don't know how you remember lyrics because I can't remember any lyrics

You know, good or bad? Like when you say, like, if you can't remember the lyrics, they're probably bad. Yeah. I can guarantee you that the only lyrics I know are my musical, other than that they're all bad. Like, they must all be terrible. Because I just can't, I couldn't sing you like dangerous women lyrics for the life of me. Right. Maybe the chorus.

But anyway, if you were to do Little Red Corvette, how would you do it like in your style? Like, how would I sing it? Yeah. And I'm not about to play my... I'm not about to play my, you know, there's some, I feel like there's some, like, secrets to songwriting that you keep in the studio. Like, you heard me sing my heart out. And so has.

I've also heard you rap. I mean, like, the best, the best song that, the best collaboration that I've done in the last probably five years is when you and I did the demo of Double Vision, which later, which later got cut. But the version that we had, that was the original demo, that was the best. version of it. Yeah. And it had you as like the feature.

And we were all like, man, how do we release this? Yeah. This shit's fire with you doing the rap. And no one ever beat that rap. Yeah. I don't even remember featured on it. I think it was Tyga, actually. But he didn't like do my rap.

He did his own rap. I thought mine was better. But whatever. Right. Okay. So you go to Miami. And at this point, you're like, I give up on the rapping. Yeah. I mean, I had kind of given up on the rapping.

Why did you move to Miami? You know, I didn't really plan on moving there. I was probably just going to join the military like everyone else where I'm from. It's like, you know, you grow up in Virginia Beach. It's like you work at the shipyard. You join the military. You work at a bar. Or you do something worse, you know.

But I actually had a friend that I grew up with whose parents started a pretty successful clothing business down there. And to make a long story short, I was down there hanging with him. He kind of talked me into coming. I met a random dude in the mall who ended up being Kevin Rudolph, who kind of like had known my friend. And he didn't really have a lot going on. He had done session work for Timberland as a guitar player, a bunch of things.

Ended up going back to his place because he wanted to show me his studio. And we played each other's music. And he didn't like mine and I didn't really like his. And we kind of had a good laugh. Did you guys both say that? Yeah. I mean, I think. Or were you both like, yeah, this is really good.

I think it was that. I think it was like, oh, cool, man. And he was like, yeah, yeah, totally. But it was like, it was clearly like, you know, I was doing like, you know, fake gangster rap. and he was doing some form of complaint rock or something that, you know. You know, it was crazy because he's a really,

he's like a really great singer and producer, and I had never even been into a studio that A didn't have, you know. Had he already had a hit or anything yet? I mean, he had had like a solo deal previously as like an artist named Binocular, you know, or something. He was signed a Maverick at one point. And then that, I don't know what happened with that,

but then he was kind of just like producing for things and doing guitar. He had played the guitar on Say It Right for Nelly Pretato and done a bunch of cool stuff. It's just so unusual for like anybody in Miami to enter the pop world at all. Yeah, well, you know, I mean, Kevin's like a smart Jewish boy from New York, you know, as many Jews end up in Miami from New York. We complimented each other in the place where each other lacked,

where he was pretty much could do everything. I think maybe just wasn't so. interested in writing lyrics you know because he writes great lyrics too and that was really you know he opened my mind up to pop music because he would be like oh man why don't you just write words to these melodies and i was like what like and he would like sing like a man and i like put words of that and i'm like what like i had no idea what he was talking about sure i hadn't even never been in a studio where there was a guitar in it before right i like it's like MPC, sock over the mic

speakers, 400 people. You know, that was like the studios that I am used to. Right. You know? That's crazy. So, when Good Girls Go Bad happens and then all of a sudden you're like, oh, that's what it

means. Yeah, totally. You know, like, I mean, we talked about how that's, you know, licensing-wise, that's probably the biggest album, or biggest song you've had. I mean, well, now you've had like five, but that's one of them. I mean, yeah, I mean, that song was really good to me. And you know what's fucking funny, man, Gabe, the singer is my next door neighbor now.

And he's such a good dude, you know, it's like, that's the first, like, writing trip I took to L.A. I went in the studio of him. It was Mike Karen, who's now, like, one of the heads on the Mount Rushmore of the music business and also a good friend. He was in A&R and just in A&R Atlantic at the time, like, developing Bruno, like showing me Bruno before he blew up and, like, doing all these things. and he actually put me and Kevin in. Dude, he's why we met. Yeah, totally. I mean, like, I'm pretty sure we've talked about that,

but I was in a random room and he was like, hey, do you want to come in this other room? He was kind of like testing me out because he knew my band or whatever. And it was an Asher Roth. You were in with Asher Roth. Yeah. I didn't want to work with Asher Roth, man.

I was so heated. Like, you know, just the bitter, failed white rapper having to go in with another, with like, you know, a white rapper who's having a big moment. Like, I still, I, to be completely honest, I still get bitter about it sometimes. Really?

I mean, I swallow it quickly. I don't like harp on it anymore. But it's always like, it's like, imagine if you have a mosquito bite that just like itches once a year for two seconds. You don't think you could do. I mean, we joked about the idea of doing like, you know, go to your producer friends

and having them spend 10 minutes on a beat. Have the best producers in the world make the worst beats ever and me just rap on them. Yeah, I mean, is there some part of you that would go and just, I mean, just for fun even. Nah, you know what? I think your dreams and your blessings come in disguise sometimes, you know, because even after the failed rapper thing and doing, you know, I went on tour with Kevin and it's this hype man, you know, and I was like, I was kind of just jumping around on stage and throwing up and being ridiculous. And I had a lot of fun. Then I came back and I put like kind of a band together called The Fuck Up. and we had to change the name to the fush-ups.

And Phil, who's a producer signed to me now, who's crushing, was the singer of the band. And I was the rapper. And I have songs with 3-6 Mafia and Mack Main and all these weird, you know, all these fucking random people and I was having Kevin produce it. And then I end up not doing a deal for that because I wanted to write songs.

And then after I had a couple more hits, I went back. And, you know, I was on a lot of drugs. And I was really high. And I hyped myself back up to be an artist again. So I shot a couple videos for these kind of... Really? Yeah, for these kind of songs and put them out. And then I saw them kind of like start to look like people kind of cared

and a couple of labels called me. And then at that point, that was probably like five, six years ago, you know, and I shut it down and I've never looked back since. And I don't want to be an artist anymore, you know? Wow. So that was going on when we first met? Yeah. I just kind of never really talked about it.

Is that shit on YouTube? Yeah, it's terrible. Fantastic. Yeah. I have like horrible. horrible rap videos of me like taking bong hits and hocking loogies and just being like you know I always feel like I was very ahead of the trends though like if you look back like even though I was clearly whack there's people that do it way better than me like I kind of feel like I was like on to something

that like every time I would get onto something like it wasn't cool and then later it would be cool but the person who made it cool was like better looking sounded better had better songs so I'm not I'm not saying like anybody jacked my shit but I felt like I was just kind of like a little I mean saying I was ahead of my time is whack, but I was just never on the current... Well, I mean, obviously you were, though. I mean, you could probably argue that

with a good portion of the people who are working songwriters, that they were, when they were artists, they were a little bit ahead of their time. It's probably why it didn't work and why when they moved over to being able to write with artists that had a name,

but they were like the vehicle for the same songs. Like, your songs were still probably dope and now it's just easier to use like those that cadence with the maroon five or something now like yeah i mean i mean my my memory log of the millions of rap songs of other people that i have memorized and listening to it my whole life is as how i'm calibrated to write songs i i i've gotten i've developed a sense of melody did you ever read lyrics or is that all from hearing nah i just i like i literally like you got to i want to explain And it's impossible to do what it's like to be in a studio with you.

And your ability to, like, I said in the intro, but you can't explain it because there's really, I can't think of anybody else I can point to. But, like, your ability to say really complex concepts so simply and then have a flow to it. Right. It's so much harder than people think. Yeah, it's hard. It takes me months of editing to get to. what seemingly takes you like 15 minutes. Right and I also see like somebody like you or someone else pick up a guitar play like a really cool you know lick chord progression with like a built

in melody over it that already sounds like a hit that I feel like is the most important like I'm like I can never do that my whole life. Yeah. You know and then y'all think what I do is hard but I think that's why it's good that we're both here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the other thing too. Like I can hear a melody over chords and the words are just like that's what my brain does like what does this sound like to me yeah what like i hear a built-in concept and a lyric to just a mumble because it's a feeling it's like what does it feel like like like if i hear like where does that come from that comes from just liking music yeah yeah i think it just comes from my imagination like that's the one thing that i i i really am proud of is my imagination to be able to imagine what it would be like

I hear a song and I just imagine what the lyrics are and that's what comes out of my mouth. I'm not thinking of lyrics. I'm not on a rhyme zone, you know? Right. I don't even care if the rhymes are dope. I just care if it feels awesome. Right.

You know, it's not even like, oh, did I have the coolest song title? Like, I mean, I've had, like, look at all my songs. I've never, like, like, Amar, who's a genius. He, the way Amar Malik writes, so much different than me. We collaborate together, but he has songs like payphone and stereo hearts. Like, I don't have songs.

with titles like that. Right. Because it's just, that's not the way my conceptual brain works. He's like a genius poet when he writes. I'm like a rapper

who writes pop songs. You know what I'm saying? So it's like, I don't, like, I don't think of lyrics the same as everyone else. And I admire

and even sometimes envy some of those songs, you know, and those people come to me and are like, damn, how'd you write that? And I'm like...

The conversational part is the thing that's, that's, you know, it's really I was with an artist who is saying this line needs to sound like it was on a bumper sticker because I don't know what it is yet

but it needs to sound like it's on a bumper sticker and and that's when you get that line of you know that sort of pay phoneish kind of like that kind of lyric is when you're aiming for something different but when you write your songs they tend to be you know songs that I actually can have like I feel like you're talking to me

Yeah. Is that something that when you're in with these artists like Adam Levine, are you presenting that as like the concept? You're like, yo, it's way cooler to have conversational lyrics because in his past he had these other kind of songs. Like, do you have that relationship with him? Yeah, I mean, we have a really good relationship. But if you also listen through his catalog,

I mean, those guys been around so long. And the thing about Adam is so great, like me being able to write songs, you know, really for him. and with him and with his guidance. And, you know, it really comes from conversations that we have, too. Right. So even if I'm, like, a lot of the songs, I'm, like, finishing to a certain extent, and then he's coming in and adding his thing.

It's like, the guy's written fucking bigger songs than all of us. Yeah, yeah. There's no, it's not like he's not capable. Right. You know what I mean? He's more than capable. He's one of the songwriters I look up to. Sure.

You know, I mean, Maroon 5 wasn't, like, my favorite band. Yeah. You know, I like the shit, you know? Yeah. It was cool. But, you know, you listen to the lyrics and the song. that that guy wrote out of control. You know?

So a lot of it, it's like I really don't feel like I have to sell myself. It's like I, thankfully, I did at the beginning. A lot of people were really taken by me. Like my own manager, my own manager would hit me up and be like, I don't know how to tell people about you. Like, what do I say you do? Like he's said to me, like, he said to certain people like, oh, he's an idea guy. So Benny jokes me about, to this day, I see Benny.

He's like, you're an idea guy. You know? Yeah. And maybe that's what I am. Where is that confidence from as far as though now? Like, because I guess then it's sort of a lack of confidence, but now it feels like if there's a room of 10 people and you're like, that's not a hit.

We all move on. And if you're like, that's a hit, we're all like, all right. And we move forward. I mean, why do you feel like, or how do you feel like a song's a hit? I mean, we finished a song, a couple songs in the last two weeks. both that were pretty confident Yeah You know

But it gives me more confidence And you know When you're like Yeah this is really This is a really good record And I believe that they're really good too Right Because I think my lack of ability

From musical detail Musicality music theory Note to chord ratio All these things that Musical people think about I don't think about So I it's like there's this like if you can imagine it as like a A ladder right and on the bottom of the ladder the first the bottom of the ladder is the lyrics right

I'm just I'm on it right yeah and then there's all these steps and then the top is the finished song I'm not worried about any of that shit in the middle right so maybe that gives me a little bit of a leg up sometimes yeah I'm sure does because I'm not it's almost like like a poison like I know people like you Charlie Puth like I can rattle off a bunch of names of just musical people that just have it's just in them I don't have any of that shit yeah you know and I and I can't do it without those people but I can hear something that talks to me yeah melodically or musically you know and I'm not always right either I happen to get right sometimes when were you when have you been most right like when was there a song where you like this is a

smash and it was like, oh yeah, that was a smash. I really feel like I'm like always right. Yeah. With pop music. I mean, but I don't also, I don't listen to every song. No, I'm talking about your own. I've called, I've called every one of my songs. Have you ever missed one?

No. Fucking crazy. No. I mean, fortunately, I feel like it's like in the songwriting world, it's hard to explain to people that, you know, if you're getting a song on an album, it's probably because the eight songs that the artist wrote before, None of them were hits. Because they're busy touring.

They're doing other things. They're not really songwriters. And then those last three slots are really fought over amongst the community of sort of hit writers. Yeah. And if you get a song on an album, you probably have a pretty decent shot that it might be a single. Do you know what I mean? It's so hard for it to get to that stage. Yeah.

I mean, and the thing is for me is the word hit is so bizarre because, like, we don't, don't know what a hit is. There's no like golden bullet, you know, that just comes out and is guaranteed to be a hit. I always feel like with my own songs, I can tell because all the songs that I've thought were going to be hits that were hits that I was right about, I felt like that when I left the studio. Yeah. The songs of mine that might have fell short, I felt were great, but I didn't feel the hit feel. Uh-huh. And, you know, not that I'm like fucking Yoda or something, but I do believe that you can feel like when you've been in the room when a big hit's been written you know you know what that you know what that day feels like you know you know what that boner is right no it's for real if you leave with the half chub you're gonna half chart you know what I guess there have been songs that have made albums where I was like this song's a hit and they never went with it as a single yeah and that's those are the ones that break my heart yeah me too I mean you know I sometimes I think that labels and artists and different people make wrong decisions but that at that point that's just an opinion based and thing and that's just something that

i just it's like a passing thought where i'm just like oh i wouldn't have done that but it's not really my place you know i mean even with like you know like if i'm i'm executive producing maroon five right now which was the most amazing thing yeah you know and one of the first conversations i had with jordan who's the manager or jordan felds seen the manager of maroon five and he didn't say this to me i said this to him um i was like look man i don't i'm not here to pick or or to pick singles. I don't want to pick singles. You know, I don't want to,

I don't want to campaign for singles either. I'm just going to deliver you the very best stuff I can deliver. Yeah. Whether it's something that I wrote, whether it's something that came in from an outside, like as an executive producer,

you have to be able to take off your hat as a songwriter. Of course, every songwriter wants every one of their songs to come out and go number one. But I'm taking on a different responsibility right now. It raises the bar too. I think like when you're,

I know it's kind of, of songs you write when I'm not in the room. And I know what kind of songs, you know, I understand what songs my fellow writers are writing. Yeah. And that's where it's like, okay, well, I need to write something as good or better than they can in order for me to compete. Totally.

You know, and so it's not a matter of, it's what you're saying about it. It's not about telling the person, you know, telling Jordan that you're going to deliver the hits. But if you're not the one who's writing it, you're going to have to find one that where somebody is going to compete at that. Totally. I mean, look, you know, when I did a song for Flowrider called Once in a Lifetime, that I was sure nothing was going to beat, you know, Max worked on it, me and Ricard and Ammo did it, got flow on it. We just had this whole thing. I think Luke worked on it, you know.

It just seemed like, oh, my God, like everyone worked on it. And I was just like, there's a song to beat. And I remember somebody who was like, oh, there's another song that called My House that, you know, called Ross and Johan did that they think's pretty good. But, I don't totally get the song. And I was like, okay, cool. And then I heard my house and I was fucking heated. A, because I didn't write it because I loved it. And B, because I knew my song was never going to see the light of day because of that song.

And I think that that's where perspective comes in. Like you have to have that perspective. You have to be okay with somebody smashing you. Yeah. Because if you're not, then you suck. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's like you have to be, A, your own worst critic.

you have to be happy for other people's success. You can be a mild hater. We all are. No, my favorite text you've ever sent me was after Dangerous Women came out and you're like, I hate you. I love you so much and I can't stand you. You're the best. Yeah. But that's how I feel.

It's true. Envy is real. I think the hard part, you know. That's another album that I sent in one of my favorite songs that I ever made that I was sure was going to be a single. It's a great record. It's a great record. But when I heard D.C. dangerous women. I was like, of course mine's not. You just have to be okay with that.

And it's even better when it's your friends. You know, because you're going to be, you got to be happy for everybody if you want to compete at the highest level. You know, it's like, it's sportsmanship. But that's what you and I have started, you know, while we started making music together and why we're like signing people and doing our own projects. Because I think we're both there like, well, we should probably do some more shit together if we like each other's music, you know? Yeah. I mean, the fucking guy. Joe London who's sitting here

with headphones on night. He probably should be in this interview over me is nominated for a Grammy for Country Song of the Year for Die a Happy Man which is another song that I was fucking heeding when I heard. Because I have a song on the Tommy's record that he actually pulled me in on that he did that

I didn't write the song but Lunch Money had a verse on it and I helped like lunch write the verse and I was like you know and you're overconfident overbearing mind of complex mind of being a songwriter. You're like oh Thomas Rett's not going to have another song like this this is like some funky shit this is definitely going to be his single right and it'll be the best song and of course you know

of course I just happened to be a part of that that's yeah you know life just throws me lemons and I make lemonade and then I heard die a happy man I'm like fuck man yeah fuck you and Sean Douglass and I love both of these and I love both these guys very dearly no doubt and I've had a big hit with Sean with women so it's like it all it's all just like what the fuck is all this it's just about making stuff that you care about, you're passionate about, and sometimes shit is better than others. I mean, one of the things I really like

with you having artists signed to you from lunch and Christian and whatnot, you know, it's like you have this a chance to kind of give, lead the way for them. Like, I think you have a paternal side of you.

Yeah, totally. You know, that's really kind of fun to watch Because I think you've so many writers that are now signed to you. No, I wouldn't say so many. No, no, no, sorry. You have, the percentage of writers that are signed to you that are successful is like 100%. Yeah, but it's, that's what it is. It's not like a quantity thing.

Totally. It's the fact that they each have had a level of success that shows that you haven't been a passive participant in them. Totally. I mean, that's why I never want to sign a lot of people ever. Right. If I get to the point where I'm signing more people, then I can handle directly, then I'm going to have to have a partner who is a badass, who can make up for some of that, and that we can interface.

I never want to leave anybody hanging. Where does your business mind come from? Probably my father. Was he always like, he was always sort of running a show, I guess, when you're doing the radio, you have to have, like. My dad's just really smart. And he, you know, he's always been, I mean, I even can remember back as far as, like, negotiating grass cutting money from my dad.

And it just wasn't easy. And maybe that's because he's Jewish. Yeah, exactly. What do you mean? Well, you know, I mean, he just always instilled in me. No, tell me this. I mean, how does that work? Like, it was literally conversations about, like, hey, can I get 20 bucks to cut the grass?

It's like, well, you can have 10 bucks to cut the grass. Well, why can't I have 20 bucks? because the only time you ask to cut the grass is when you need money. If you cut the grass every week, then it could be $20. And I'm like, what? I don't get it, you know? And then it would come to like, well, I need to go somewhere tonight. Can I get the $10 and I'll cut the grass in the morning?

Well, no, you didn't cut the fucking grass. So I'm not giving you the money. Right. You know, and it's just like, I don't even know what that means. All it means is like, you know. Good for him. You know, he just kind of taught me to just, you know, basically just earn what you want. Do they understand what you want?

and what's going on with you? Yeah. Yeah, they do. I'm really close with my parents, and both my parents are really smart. My mom has a doctorate in education, and my dad's been in the radio business, so he knows some facet of the entertainment world.

I mean, my dad strokes checks every month to all the, you know, to pay out for all the people that are getting songs played on his station, like any station does. Sure. So he gets it. I mean, it's just such a crazy thing to be three and a half years ago, to not be sober, to then, you know, executive producing where I'm pretty sure if I look on

radio chart right now you have to have at least I know you have the BB song which is most added one of them and then you have the Maroon 5 song and I know yeah hey Violet you've got on the Hot A-C and the AC charts like 20 of them because you've got no I know but I'm saying the other charts you have don't want to know is number one today on hot I see yeah and hopefully it goes number one on pop pretty soon

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm sure it will. It's pretty impressive, man. So if you were to give advice to a struggling writer, what would you say? A struggling songwriter? Yeah, don't. I mean, that's a really hard question because I would have to know, I would have to have heard songs from that writer. You know, I would have to know what kind of write. But it would be more about the actual song and not like, like, you know, there's that famous thing about advice you'd give it.

an actor in L.A., you tell them to take fountain. Yeah, exactly. It's like something usable like that. My favorite thing is one of my friends always says when somebody says they're an actor, they say, oh, what restaurant? Yeah. But yeah, I mean, I would, you know, I like sharing and reciprocating advice that's been given to me. Yeah. You know, I don't like to be greedy with it.

So for struggling songwriters, I would say, you know, just think about two things. Think about the music that you like and think about is your music as good as that. Now, I like Stevie Wonder. I don't, my songs aren't as good as Stevie Wonder songs, but maybe they kind of like. Compositionally, I think you could argue that they are. Well, maybe just compositionally, they work. Like the verse into the chorus and it all feels good. Right.

Like, it's glued together as well as any other song in history has been glued together. Is your song glued together? Right, yeah. Can you remember your own song? Do your friends like it? Or are they just gassing you up? You know, like, think about, like, be a critic of yourself. Think about it as your song's really good.

Like, you should be able to put a song that you made in a playlist of all your favorite songs from big artists and it should sound natural. Yeah. If you're playing it at a party. Yeah. Like, maybe it's a song no one's heard before, but someone's like, what the fuck? is somebody playing their fucking music, you know, their own shit, you know? And the other thing, too, that I would say,

is think about if you really want to make music for a living or not. Yeah. You know? Because if you do, you have to structure. Well, because if you do, then work comes into it. You know, I'm all for, like, hippies playing drum circles on the beach and, like, people that just want to jam just for the fucking sake of, jamming and work a day job but like you know if you want to like live if you want to like live your

life uh and get paid for making music and be part of the music business unfortunately the word business is part of that sure thing then you have to think about what avenues there are to get paid and where you excel and then you should insert yourself into the avenue where you excel and work hard towards using it to generate money sure but i'm a firm believe that you're believer in like, you know, a lot of people like, oh, sell out shit, that's this and that's that. Well, it's like, I like, I love music and I, I love money, you know? But not like, not like I love money like Scrooge McDuck. Like I love being able to like make a living.

Like the gift, being rich to me is it like if you have, I was rich ever since I made the first dollar off music. And that's because I could go buy myself a sandwich for something that came out of my brain. That's what, that's the dream. No doubt. It's not, it's all relative. Whether you have $100 million or whether you can afford an $1,100 a month apartment and a Prius for the rest of your life and do whatever the fuck you want to do every day. If you get to do it making music, you're a fucking filthy rich.

How often do you remind yourself of that? Every single day. Yeah. Would you give that same advice to a successful writer? Well, yeah. Like, I always wonder what I, you know. I mean, some successful writers, I'd be like, yo, you should just chill. Yeah.

If you're not, like, don't beat yourself up. No, we know some that it's hard to watch because their focus isn't in the art of it. Or, like, they're not really into the game of it. Yeah. They're missing the point. Yeah, I mean, I would just say don't beat yourself up. I mean, if you're successful at anything, you have a right to take a break. You know, it doesn't discredit you at all in my book.

I mean, look at, like, Farrell. He, like, owned the radio for so long. You know, disappeared. He's popping up fashion things. A couple songs here. I mean, maybe not as hot as he once was. and then a few years later he comes back with happy and get lucky. Yeah, it's crazy.

And not all of a sudden he's Ferell 2. 2.0, the bigger Feral than he's ever fucking been. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I'm going to give you a list of people and you can just tell me what you think. Cool. Charlie Puth.

Incredible. One of my best friends. Yeah. Yeah. Tell me about his process. Man, he's like, I don't know. It's so shocking when you're around him because he'll hear your song and he'll be like, yo, this shouldn't be an F-sharp, and that chord right there.

And he's not anywhere near a piano, I mean, he's got perfect pitch, and yet he still has, like, the ability to sound not like he's in school. Yeah, I mean, Charlie just has, he has everything. He has flavor. He's a great singer. He's classical. He's just, he can just kind of do it all. He's one of my favorites.

Adam Levine. Adam Levine, big bro. It's given me incredible opportunities. just a pro really cool dude too consider him a friend you know and he's like

he's like one of the guys that like doesn't seem to be affected by the amount of tremendous success he's had he's still super cool like I kick it at his house and play basketball and like chill and like he's we talk about bullshit you forget that he's

that big because he's still sort of because he always he came in as like a real you know he wasn't a singer-songwriter because the band was there but he was always part of the writing community at least ever since moves like jagger like he really is immersed himself as part of the reason why they're so successful over a lot of other bands is that they're they've embraced the songwriting community yeah and you know when you have someone like that who three albums later is still part of the songwriting community it's kind of hard to for it's hard to remember that he's really

well I guess it's easy to remember he's famous but he's really really famous now yeah because we live in L.A. Like the voice like that reaches a whole audience that we kind of forget even exists. No doubt. You know? Selena Gomez. Like little sister.

Yeah. It's our family. Day one come up. I love her to death. She's very deep and very cool and like you know has one of the best tones of anyone works hard. She like I can't I don't have, I couldn't say anything bad about Selena if I really, really thought really hard

about one thing. Yeah. She's just like, she's the best. DJ Paul. The rapper or my dog? Your dog. That's my dog. Named after DJ Paul from 3-6 Mafia. I used to have Juicy J too, but my ex-girlfriend has him. Oh, no way.

Because then you worked with Juicy J, right? And DJ Paul. Those are my homies. I told them both that I named my dogs after them and I don't think they thought it was funny. Well, especially because if you see DJ Paul, you're like, it's not the most menacing dog you've ever said. He's a little Pomeranian. They both are, but, yeah.

So what's next for you? Vacation. Like, I'm going to go see my family. I know that's not really the question. No, but dude, look, man, I haven't heard you say that you're, nobody takes less time off than you. Yeah. I mean, you have an incredible work ethic, and I usually, I don't work at night and I don't work weekends if I can't, because I worry I'll burn out. Yeah.

And I watch you in three and a half years into your sobriety, you're working more efficiently. Even if you're working a lot, you're very efficient with it, which means that you're that prolific. Yeah. Which is fucking shocking. Well, I mean, you know, I don't write a song. It's very difficult to keep up with you, by the way. Well, thanks. But, you know, I don't write a song every day.

I just involve myself in the process every day and I look for inspiration and gems. And I think that's the gift that we have as songwriters. and it's why we're lucky because we search for those things and sometimes they come. And then the skill set is packaging it into a song. You know, you can't.

So I just like if I'll, I'll go through 10 ideas with writers that I really want to work with or whoever it is. It's just I, and if like, if it doesn't feel awesome, I'm just like, fuck this. I'm not going to sit here

and just write it for no fucking reason. It's just, and some people get a little agro about that. It's just not my style. It takes a minute because if you're like, this isn't, you know, let's move on. There are times, I kind of think this song's good. And when I look back, I'm like, I don't know if that song was a hit, even if it was a good song. And that's a thing.

Yeah. Aiming for an album track or a fan favorite or whatever, however you want to call it. Yeah. It's psychologically, it's not even necessarily always rewarding because you really end up being like this still should have been the single. Yeah, I mean, you know, look, I've had songs on. plenty of albums that weren't the single and when I heard the singles I was okay with it. Yeah. So they just had the better songs or the right songs for the right time and the right reasons.

Do you have, do you write at all thinking of charts and how Spotify works versus labels? Or like, do you even think about any of that or is that too much to add in? It's too much to add in. I mean, you know what it is? I only work at this point, what I'll say I'm spoiled about is I think that I've learned enough to know who I'm going to collaborate really great with and I look for people who excel in areas that I'm weak in. And I've built enough bridges with those people that they trust me and respect my vision, my opinion, my perspective, which I always say the word perspective, because I think that's

why it's the most important thing. I think they appreciate that about me and I appreciate theirs as well and their musicality and their ability to sing a demo and write melodies and create a musical composition that I can insert you know the stupid shit I do into it and we can all challenge each other like I love a challenge you know like I want somebody to be like dude those lyrics

fucking suck write them again yeah I'd rather you just say that flat out to me like and most of the time to be real like I know when something I write is not great but I also don't write lyrics for the sake of like I don't like I'm not trying to be Chris Martin from Coldplay man

I just want to sound cool you know I just want it to sound like some shit you would say to somebody. Right. That's what gives me gone. Right. And if there's a metaphor or a flip on a concept or a lyric that just falls into place, brilliant. Yeah.

That happens sometimes sick. If not, fuck it. Yeah. You know, to close a... I know how much we're working together and how we're starting companies together. Totally. We're signing people together and we're doing the whole thing. And it's like...

Yeah. The more... The more I hear your thoughts on the planet and the podcast. and the positivity you're putting out there and whatnot. And I know how you're starting to get involved in everything from the songwriting community to having like, you know, you're going to be a dad. Yeah. And all that stuff.

Like, this is, I couldn't have a better business partner to go into some of these things with. So I'm stoked, man. I feel the same about you, though, you know? It's one of those things of like, you know, in the most positive way, if you can't beat them, join them and it's like it's nice where it's nice when you're like okay so we do different things but i love how you approach these things and how we approach the the music industry like there's this is a big place yeah it's tiny in numbers but there are a lot of ways to be creative and you know developing artists developing songs developing you know all the different entities

so it's like it's fun because i i think you do it really well and it's fun to watch. Thank you, man. I appreciate it. Yeah, dude. I appreciate you guys taking the time to listen to me ramble about shit. I hope it comes across as meaningful

to someone out there. Me too. Thanks for listening to this episode of And The Writer Is. If you want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed, be sure to check out our Spotify playlist or visit our website

at and The Writer Is.com. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe to us on iTunes. You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter. And The Writer Is is produced by Joe London, edited by Miles Bergsmah, and published by Big Deal Music. A special thanks to Jeff Sparger, David Silberstein from Mega House Music, and Michael White. Until next time, this is Ross Golan.