And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 200: Jack Antonoff Pt.2

Episode Date: December 16, 2024

Today’s guest is the ultimate overachiever in pop music—producer, songwriter, artist, and, let’s face it, the reason half your favorite albums sound the way they do. From crafting massive hits with Taylor Swift, Lorde, and Lana Del Rey to fronting his own band, Bleachers, he’s a master at blending raw emotion with anthemic hooks that stick. Whether he’s digging into suburban nostalgia or redefining modern pop, his fingerprints are all over the sound of the last decade. Oh, and did we mention he’s a three-time Producer of the Year Grammy winner? No big deal. And as if that’s not enough, we couldn’t think of a better guest to celebrate our 200th episode. He’s the heart, the brain, and the relentless energy behind it all. And The Writer Is…Jack Antonoff! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to And The Writer Is with Ross Golan. There are millions of singers, thousands of artists, and only 40 songs per genre at a time. These are the stories of the hottest creatives, the most venerable legends, artists, songwriters, executives, and more. Follow our socials and share your music with the and the Writer is community. We'll see you all there and now. Here's this week's episode. Let me tell you about Ascap. ASCAP is America's only creator-first performing rights organization or PRO.

Their main job is to pay you royalties when songs you write are streamed broadcasts on radio or TV or played live. They're great at collecting royalties. In the most recent year, they collected more than $1.7 billion for ASCAP members. So, what makes ASCAP different? They're the only PRO in America that operates. rates on a not-for-profit basis. The only one that was founded by music creators and is still governed by music creators and publishers. And they're in Washington all the time advocating for songwriter's rights in the age of AI.

ASCAP represents over one million members, including this episode's guest, Jack Antonoff. If you are a songwriter or composer, ASCAP is where you belong. writers can join for free Learn more at askup.com forward slash why join and follow at askap on socials Chartmetric is proud to sponsor the upcoming season of and the writer is

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Our podcast listeners can go to banzugal.com to try it free for 30 days and use the promo code ATWI for And The Writer. is to get 15% off the first year of any subscription. That's Banzugal.com promo code ATWI. Welcome to End the Writer is. I'm your host, Ross Golan. Today's icon is back. Since his last visit with us,

he produced and released not songs with, but albums with Lord, and the artist formerly known as the Dixie Chick, St. Vincent, the 1975, and a few up-and-coming artists like, Lana Del Rey and Taylor Swift. He's one producer of the year the last three years in a row, which matches the one and only former and the writer is guest's Babyface.

And it's not like he's neglected his band Bleachers either. They just released their beautiful new album A Stranger Desired. All of this in just the past five years. In other words, he hasn't really been up too much, but he's in from out of town. and this writer, producer, artist, is one of the nicest people in the business, and the writer is Jack Antonov.

I haven't gotten that yet. I like it. What, nicest people in the business? You think so. I think so. Are there people who don't? No, but I just... Yeah, it's just waiting to find that out.

I said this to you, I think, in the last one, but it's still really true. I can't tell you how many times I go and I say to, like, Siri, I'll be like, Hey, Siri, because my wife's name's Jackie and I call her Jack, and I'm always like, text Jack that I'm going to be running five minutes late.

texting Jack Antonoff. I'm going to be running five minutes like, no, no, no, no. Don't cut it off. I'm going to just start texting you random. I want to get like a stream of running five minutes late. Like, hey, like, I think that was an important talk, but I still feel like, you know, you should have seen the size of this diaper

that I just cleaned. Yeah. I mean, it's going to happen. So you watch Departed again. We're just talking about... You like it? Yeah, I mean, you best. I thought you weren't supposed to talk, Joe.

Yeah, you said you weren't in speaking. Fail. The departed test. Wait, I got a quick story before you start. I probably told this the last time I was on, but Ross is the first person. The literal, not first in like the emotional way. Like, literal, the first person that let me

come into the room with them and work on the song. First, first, first. I was always in bands. I always, like, wrote and produced with, like, friends. And then there was this, like, barrier to, you know, I guess the scene or the, how things are done out here. I don't know how you, I don't know how I would call it. But I felt like I couldn't get in. And then I finally started having some stuff going on.

And some, a publisher was, like, trying to court me. and I was like, well, I really want to write with people, and they were like, check out this guy. And Ross is obviously great, but at that time was already cooking. And they got me in the room with them. This is the first one. And I don't know, I was probably like definitely very nervous trying to be more confident than I was. But it was my first experience, yeah, just getting in a room with someone and writing a song with them, which is a very specific experience. It is.

Once you get, I won't say good at it, because as we all know it, it ebbs and flows. But once you get used to it, you forget how bizarre it is. And then you kind of meet people who are just starting to do it and remind it. It's such a strange experience. But for me, it's always no matter what happens, it's Ross. I love that. I think there's that thing where I tell people, if you want to know what it's like to write a song in this profession, and walk in a room with people you don't know, sing at them, and then ask what they think.

You know, it's really a vulnerable thing. It's remarkably vulnerable. And also, it's like, it's not like everyone's sweet. You know, like people have different ways of working. I am extremely specific in what I think works. And that's more of like a pushing forward through support. But, you know, there's a lot of people out there who, I'm sure you've been in rooms. I've been in rooms where they're like, you know, harsh.

harsh as fuck and you get used to it. I don't know if that's good or bad, but you do. Well, there's this weird thing where I think some producers, first of all, do you remember the name of the song? I can sing it, hold on. I can get my name. I don't know if I was a little bit of a lot. I'm skeptical.

It's my nature. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. In a past life, things didn't go right. I don't know the name, but I know the song. I remember the chorus of like, oh, then it's one of the ones in me. Pinky swear that you never leave. It's still like, what was interesting about it was...

It's not bad. It's not bad. It's not bad. I mean, for you, maybe it was lower chair, but for my first to it, it had something. No, no, no. I mean, like, you know, one of the things that I always say is, like, do you know what the song is called? Yeah. You know?

And it was pretty clear what the song was called. And we had an upright piano in this, like... random. It wasn't really, it was like kind of a studio at Warner Chapel. That was another crash course for me too of being like a non-studio studio studio. Yeah, yeah. Like one of these places that like, like the term writing room. Yeah. There's never something I understood growing up.

Because to this day, like my process is so integrated. You know, it's like when I was a kid, even if I had my bedroom, it's like I had all my stuff around and I would write with all the things and all the things. So that was interesting to me to, to. but the LA writer-producer scene at that point in my life was so filled with like myth and folklore because two reasons. A. I wasn't a, well, three reasons. I wasn't a part of it, so my mind wandered.

I wanted to be a part of it, so my mind wandered. But I also think the way that it actually gets done or the way the sausage is made, I wonder if you agree, but is one of the least like well reported on processes. What should people know that isn't? I'm not sure. I guess the problem is, and maybe this is why it's poorly reported on, is whenever I sit down and, you know, and I'm interviewed or talking about process or whatnot, I find that I don't have a good answer for it. And maybe you'll agree with this because I find that when the thing's happening, it's just like, it's just like kind of like feverish and it's happening. And then we all know this feeling of like, oh, there it is. There it is. And you know, and you can go and pick it apart and be like, these are the things that could put it in a better outfit. But like the heart and soul of like getting the song is sort of like, oh my God, there it is. We were messing around. We were singing stuff at each other. And then there the hell it is. But I think the reason why it's poorly reported on is I think there's like these, this large spectrum of how music is written and produced. And then there's these like sort of like Sengali archetypes or like, like, good hang archetypes. And it's pretty hard not to fault the press or anything, but it's pretty hard to tell the story without just, you know, it's like Phil Spector or like Hypeman. And the truth is, it's really neither, as you know. But so as someone before I got into it,

I was like, how is this shit happening? How is this happening? I'd read the Max Martin's stories. I read the Phil Spector, George Martin, you know, like I knew the stories, but it know how it was happening. Do you now know? Yeah, same way it happened when I was a kid. People in a room making a one plus one equals a million, trying to find something like what's your archetype? Are you the guy? Are you the hype guy? No. Are you the math guy? No. This is what is the, to me, this is one of the most interesting things about you in particular, is that I don't know how to describe somebody who's like, What was interesting was the first time we worked together was in that room.

Then the only other time we worked together was Dixie Chicks also in like that different, you know. And, or Chicks, we'll say. At the time it was Dixie and then it became Chicks. But your confidence in the room from, the first one was just us writing a song. Not just us, my first. Yeah, fair. Fair. Totally.

And we didn't know what we were writing for either. It's just this thing of like, What should we do today? And also, you're very gracious, but I'm sure the call you got was like, here's this person who's never done it. Well, I don't think you. Will you shirper them into? Will you take my cousin on a date?

Was kind of the vibe, right? It was a little bit of that, except for, I think what's weird. It was probably, no, it was probably, I would assume that it was before, you know, before we are young is a smash. We Are Young was, like, bubbling. Which is why you got in the, right. Which is why I had anyone even interested. Right.

So I don't think it was like the, I don't, it definitely wasn't the, I always tell stories of a few artists that I passed on and writers I passed on. You know, like these, you know, the one that, like, I was working with Seelow during the fuck you era and we had to follow up. I wrote it with Ricky Reed before he was Ricky Reed at the time. We were good friends. And Mike Karen hit me up and he goes, hey, there's this guy in from the UK. He just has a couple songs out, but do you want to write with them? I'm like, I'm in with Celo for like a week.

And here's this guy that did a song called Lego House. Like, I'm not interested in some guy who has two songs. One's called A-Team. That's about, you know, whatever. and one called Lego House, and just kind of passed on it. I didn't try it. And I feel like when I look back at how many times I passed on stuff without, I say like I salted the soup.

Yeah. There's this old time he thought where Edison supposedly put a bowl soup in front of his potential employees and a salt shaker. And if you salted the soup before trying it, he wouldn't hire you. You know? It's great. And I think I salted the soup for many years. So I'm really happy to know that, you know, I just thought, you know, I'm so glad that we wrote at that time and that it wasn't an experience of like, you know, some weird thing where I would have thought, no, he doesn't have enough going on.

That would have, you know, which is crazy to think. But, like, for sure you've passed on artists that have turned into something. I see it a little differently, though, only because, and I wonder if, like, you feel this way, too, but there's only so much space. And I get really protective of myself of, like, not burning out. I never want to feel, like, normal in the studio or when I'm writing alone or with someone else. Like, I think it's, like, a magic-based thing. And so, like, I never want to get too, like, lose. into the place where I'm not like super excited to go in or super filled with ideas.

So I've had tons of experiences where someone's like, hey, you want to work with this person? And they go on and do something great. But I see it more like and maybe deep down you do too, like sort of like part of like a meant to be like, well maybe if I said yes to this, this and this, I also would have burned myself out. And then lost out on the thing that really like made me feel like made me feel myself. Yeah, there was a project that I was EPing when I quit the job because they were all on so many drugs during the experience. Yeah. And I was really bummed about it because I had to lose a check from not doing it. And during those two, three weeks that I had nothing going on, I wrote one of the biggest songs I ever had in like a pitch, in like a random session.

There's always. And I was like, that wasn't that, you know, I was really bummed. I lost on like some cash. And I was like, oh, this turned out to be the best. Maybe. Oh, is. If your goal is to write your best music, you can't lose because you don't know where you, there's no path to find that.

And every great song has that story. Like, no one's like, we went in. Our goal was to write the best song. And we wrote the fucking, like every, it's actually sort of remarkable how everything is an accident. The story always starts with like, I got in a car accident down. morning or like I got left at the bus stop. This session got canceled and we just went to this place and then we saw this thing and then we ran into there's and so like that randomness I think is either designed to drive you fucking crazy or on the flip side it could give you an

amazing amount of relief which is what I like about our work is like you know if we're in the business of like building stools and selling them and we're trying to like perfect the model and build many of them and build many of them and then sell them and sell them and sell them like that's the kind of thing that you'd have to really like pace yourself or you'd lose your mind because you just want to build more and more and more. But there's no, there's no historical proof that the more songs you write, the better they get. There just isn't. I mean, there's obviously like you have to hone your craft, but but there's no proof that the more sessions you do, the better you do. There's no proof that there's one place that you need to be

living in. You know, the best songs and artists are shooting out of the most random place. in the world. And I've tried really hard because I'm neurotic in my own way and have goals and can get buzzy and whatnot. But I've tried really hard to just not lie to myself or even calm myself down, but just continuously remind myself that like I'm here barely controlling it, just sort of grabbing it when it comes to me. And there's, it's a slot machine and I just have no idea I could I could get a call from someone I love so much and be so excited and nothing could come from it. And then I could be in the shower and have the idea that.

But that shit, as we know people, can drive you fucking crazy. Well, you say that you are protective of me not burning out. You're like, but you look like shit. But you look like shit. You sound like, for the record, for people who don't know, he just played the Greek two nights in a row. I look like a happy piece of shit right now. What I would call myself very satisfied.

It's how I get on tour. Like, I'm broken, but I'm happy. How do you... I don't want to get like this from the studio. How do you... If I look at your discography from that Dixie Chick session to now, or from the last time I saw you, how are you not burning out all the time?

It looks like you're only working in the studio. It's not like those are days of sessions. Like, if you're a songwriter and you wrote all those songs, that's one thing. But you're tightening up every single one of these albums like are you do you work six days a week seven days a week my work I work in weird like it's very well I guess

I work sort of spread like you know I just did San Francisco to LA shows and I'm going to go home I'll go to see you for three days a few more tour days I kind of bounce in and out yeah and then obviously I can work remote too but I have like a pretty like firm line in my head of like things that give me energy and things that take energy from me. People love talking about, what's that thing everyone talks about, like, if social

interactions give or take energy, you know, right? I think that, and obviously there's nuance to it, but it's quite clear, like, you know, think about a session you had that you loved, right? And think about how you felt after. You know, that feeling where you're like, you know, having a good session with somebody, it's not like a good session, you get a good song. It's like, it's like deepens the belief in like collaboration. It deepens the belief in other relationships in your life. It's very inspiring. And so when you leave it, you know, that feeling we're like, I can't wait for tomorrow. I can't wait to get back in. Oh my God. I've found a person on earth I can connect with. On the flip side, the feeling of a session where you're like, I don't want to be here. I want to die.

What how these people see the world is so opposite to my worldview, kind of makes you want to crawl in a ditch. I'm obviously lucky. But even when I, you know, know, before I had anything going on, I just felt so like, I know where I'm supposed to be. And it's so obvious to me, if I'm being honest on my gut, this work, these songs, these people make me almost like want to fly out of bed in the morning. And if I don't have that feeling, then it's like, it doesn't even mean that that doesn't even mean that that's not going to that feeling is bad or whatever. It's just, it's not for me. And it'll fuck me up. I'm really like very sensitive.

You have, you have this ability when here you are wondering, oh, what's it like in the LA scene? You know, granted, that's probably more than 10 years ago now. But like wanting to get in the songwriting world and seeing like, oh, what's this like? A lot of that world is one session with this artist, one session with that artist, this writer, this producer. but it's really unusual to get five days in a row, let alone diving deep with an artist. And then you dive deep enough with an artist where they keep asking you back.

One, do you feel like, do you feel the grass is greener when you see these people who write one song here and one song there? And two, what is it that you're doing that keeps these people coming back. Well, there's definitely moments when I'm like the deepest, you know, possible place into an album. And I think to myself, like, wow, I've really designed

a pretty complicated life. So I obviously have those moments. But to me, it's like an overarching question of where you feel yourself, literally. So like, I love writing songs. I love writing my own songs. I love with other people. I love producing. I'm not writing. I love my band, touring. But there's something about the giant connective tissue for me. about all this stuff is I really see things in the context of albums and in the context of time periods. So it's not an intentional thing, but I usually am just thinking about, you know, my favorite, the worst albums that you can possibly make, which can be a symptom of, of, you know, too much merry-go-round writing is the worst thing you could do is make an album that sounds like, you know, 10 to 50, different groups of people attempting to get that song. That's not an album.

That is a now that's what I call 15 people trying to get that song. And once again, as you know and as I know, when you get, quote, unquote, that song. And when I say that song, you'd call it a hit, you'd call it the front door of a house, whatever it is. The thing that draws in that kicks the ten open a little bit more and, you know, is the big hello to more people. it's never how you think you're going to get it. And so I always let that be something that comes later. It's more like I imagine a body of work with someone and then like a house.

I've talked about that before. What's the front door? And then inherently, maybe it's because I'm in a band, when I'm working on something, I think about how it fairs in the future. I think about the next thing. But it's just where I'm valuable. Like if someone was like,

I'll get those calls where it's like we finished the album we don't have a single. Like, I'm not, I'm not the guy. And that's not a knock on that guy. That guy is fucking magic. You know, that person who can come in, I know them. We all know them. You know, that person who can come in and get and see the whole thing and then put it into this, is wild.

But it's just about knowing your zone. Yeah, I mean, there's knowing your zone. And there's the external part of the music industry that tends to push you, like try to push people around. And, you know, when you've been releasing so many, so much quality music, and not every album has the, now that's, whatever, whatever, that's a great reference. Now, that's what I call 15 writers or producers going from that song. Yeah. Yeah. But not every album has, like, a single that. Certainly a lot of them don't have singles that go to radio.

And still I like, I like, are, you know, Norman fucking Rockwell doesn't have, like, radio smashes on it in the way that, but it still was Rolling Stones, like, you know, top 500 album. Like, you know, what, do you have the ability to not conflate your, you know, success commercially versus critically It's so separate This town specific I mean it's like there's A and our success

Which is really like a niche You know what I mean? Like you don't have to dig too deep Into history of your favorite artists They all have the story That they were a failure of their label Or like you know It's almost stunning

That we still believe some of the myths And the reason why we still believe the myths Is because there's a small group of people that perpetuate the myths. And that's how they... What which myths are you talking about? The myths that album isn't God. Album is God, period.

Always has been. There's no period in time that doesn't prove that. There's no brilliant artist. Artist band that's existed for a real period of time and changed things and has a real audience that isn't based on albums. They don't exist. Singles are amazing.

I love singles. Singles are pathways to somewhere. A single without a great album is a long hallway that leads to nothing. Right? So that's a myth. And it's understandable why some people in the industry perpetuate that myth. It's very time-consuming, stressful, can be very expensive to make an album. It's very easy to make a single and service it and chuck it against the wall.

I always challenge myself and everyone in my community to remind ourselves what are facts or what. are concepts that are being sold to us by the people who benefit off those concepts. I've been to ban my whole life. I know how touring works. Touring is completely divorced from anything but what the fuck you do on that stage, right? There is a reason why, you know, there's that great Robin Thick story at the height of blurred lines. I mean, it's kind of inside baseball, but I think it's inspiring. Biggest song in the world put up this show and sold 12 tickets and had to take it down right away. meanwhile my band at that time that no one's heard of you know talking to steel train days or whatever you know is doing more tickets than that touring is an entirely separate thing that is unfakable

you didn't get a moment but it's really to live at it and then all these you know it's not a streaming phenomenon of like great music getting bigger later that's been happening forever i just i remember that and i also remember you know what i'm what i'm trying to do and and i mean Jesus it's like how many times think about how long you've been doing it, how many changes in the industry and different concept. Number one, radio was God and everything. And then this is God and this. It's like, there's always some person in a system who has a very narrow parameter of what works. And then when you just step outside of it, there's like this giant, beautiful world. And the irony is is when that outside stuff comes into the system and everyone's like, you know, saying, oh,

you should do it like this. And you're like, oh, you mean just make something from the soul? Right. Great idea. Yeah. Yeah. But those are my favorite A&R people who there's people I absolutely love who see. I mean, look at the Sabrina Chapel Charlie thing. Like, what's the fucking lesson? Artist development. Yeah. Brilliant artists.

Three very different and very brilliant artists who for decades or longer have had a vision. They've been growing and growing and growing. And all of them have hilarious stories of labels and executives not getting it. mishandling it and trying to push it this way and that way. And then you get this amazing explosion, like the metaphor of pulling the arrow back. The harder you pull it back, the longer it goes. And everyone wants to chat about it on the business side. And it's like, well, the only thing to, the only lesson is find something that you absolutely love and then die for it.

I don't care if it takes 15 years to break. That's what it is. What's interesting about those three examples is only one of them is with the label that they signed with from the beginning. Yeah. You know? Yeah. That through development, you know, a lot of artists signed to a label and it's when they signed to a label that they realize who they're not. You know?

Yeah. Like a little culpability on the artist, too. It's like that it takes a, you know, there's an artist on a label right now that I keep saying to all the A&R people at that label. I'm like, you guys just need to drop him. Drop him. can now have the career he's supposed to have. I got off a major. You know?

Yeah. Bleachers went from RCA to Dirty Head, and we've had a giant lights on moment. You know, the untold story is, you know, there's making art, and that's everything. There's nothing else that matters. There's making the thing. There's playing the thing that's producing.

There's all of it. That's the fucking art about it. You're making it. And the amazing. amount that the artist, mostly, but then even the writers, even the producers, all the other people, the amount of work after making the thing to just fucking protect it, to just fucking protect it if you're in a big system. I mean, I'm in a small system now and it's a huge relief is I never put out anything I didn't absolutely love or die for, but I used to have to do like

man hours, hours and hours of work convincing people that it was their idea to, I mean, the level of high school, as we all know, that goes on behind the scenes is stunning. It's like, absolutely stunning. How important is it for the artists you work with to be part of a system knowing how difficult it is to, you know, when you're an artist,

you can control everything. You know, but when you're a producer and a co-writer on an album, there's a little bit of, you know, most of the artists that you work with are assigned to some major label system. Yeah, but they're so independent within their systems. Yeah,

like, and also, I always think that a good way to consider, you know, I would never work with someone where I'd be worried that if they didn't do it this way, it would be a bummer. So like anyone I work with, it's like I'm so inspired by their vision

that it's just sort of like, which way are they going to steer the rocket ship? I don't care. You know, like it's so, I don't find myself in those situations if I'm making an album with Lana or the Sabrina album that I worked on. It's like I just love all of it so much, the things I'm a part of, the things I'm not a part of. I love her vision. I love all of it.

It's like she's just got it. And I'm a proud partner there. And that's how I feel with everyone I work with. So I feel with my band too. It's just like we know where we're going. And if it's a little bit this way or a little bit that way, you know, call it going with this song first or the tour goes here or the video looks like this. It's all good because the general thing is moving one way. If you're a songwriter or composer, you have to join a performing rights organization or PRO.

Performance royalties are an essential part of your income, if not your only income. ASCAP is America's first PRO and the only one that operates on a not-for-profit basis, which means the money they collect goes to their songwriters, composers, and music publishers. And ASCAP supports you in a lot of different ways, even beyond the royalties. They run workshops and networking events for creators, like the annual ASCAP Experience. Check it out at ASCAPexperience.com. They got tons of resources on their website to help you learn about the music industry. They've even got a wellness program.

I really respect that ASCAP is a true democracy. ASCAP members elect their board of directors, and the board is made up of music, writers, and publishers. They've got over one million writers, including this episode's guest, Jack Antonoff. Writers can join for free, learn more at ASCAP.com forward slash why join, and follow at ASCAP on socials.

Our good friends at ChartMetric have all the data you need to power your music career, From playlist placements to stream counts to follower demographics and many more. It's never been easier to understand how your artists fit in the music industry and how they can grow. Chart metric does the work for you, providing actionable insights and visuals on their up-to-date global data that covers over 10 million artists and 100 million songs. So there's no math required. Use it to find out things about your favorite artists and any of the artists and writers on this podcast.

Plans start as low as $10 a month. Learn more and get started today at chartmetric.com. Speaking of collaborators on the Sabrina album, Amy Allen would like to ask Jack Antonoff, and the writer is. She would like to, she says, nowadays with so much music coming out every fucking day, what's one thing today

you think can still make a song timeless? That's Amy's question? Yeah. I mean, she texted it to me. I thought it was going to be more like, what's your fucking problem? Why do you have to make fun of Maine so much?

He wants to know what. Okay, so how do you make something timeless? Yeah, in this era when there's so much music. I think there's always been a lot of, yeah, there's a ton of music. I think the concept of the concept of timeless to me is defined by the artist and so that that is a esoteric magic that just has to happen someone expresses their soul becomes timeless period so i i can't

say how to do it you know it when you hear it but i can say that the biggest i can say one trapdoor to stay the fuck away from is letting anyone in your ear who's explaining to you what's going on or what you know if first of all The great irony of being an artist or producer or writer is how can you care what's going on? When something's going on, it's amazing. And someone's like, this is what's happening. I'm like, congratulations to them. That's wonderful.

That has nothing to do with me. Our only goal is to hear or feel something and then express it, turn it into something you can hit play on. And then that's, you know, I'm not going to sit here and explain how something becomes timeless, but I know how it doesn't. and it's a little bit like that Kirk Hammett moment and some kind of monster where he was like, well, doesn't not doing a guitar solo date it to know? You know this moment?

It's like a classic Metallica art. They're like, we can't do a guitar solo. Is there dated? And he's like, well, it doesn't not doing guitar solo date it? And I remember watching that with my band and just thinking like the whole argument is a nightmare. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like how can we sit here as like our own planet

and a far off solar system and even give a fuck? And that's why I always think it's funny. of people who are at like the top of like the tastemaker thing. It's like, but you're still in the taste maker thing. Like, who cares? All the best stuff just comes from some corner. So timelessness, final answer, Amy. And I love you, Amy. Timelessness comes from the magic place. But you can't get to the magic place if you even care what the hell is going on. It has to be a totally random expression. When you do these albums that sound cohesive in their own, own worlds.

You know, it's like, we're, I tell people like, okay, if we're working on an album, we're making a movie and each song is a scene in the movie. Don't bring scenes, don't bring scenes from another movie into this, in this movie. It won't make sense here. Yeah, like Scarface is a great movie, but it doesn't work in the holiday. Yeah. We're just making, it's so random. And that's like real extreme, but totally makes sense.

because I think a lot of artists are like, oh, even within a song, they're trying to write the whole album within a song. It's just one scene. You don't need to have, you don't have to satisfy everything right now. But when I work on projects that are more extensive, I'll make sometimes like playlists and I'll listen to all kinds of music that might be within a world to be inspired. do what what keeps you within you know i don't i don't listen to uh you know camp trails over the country club and listen to midnight something they sound alike do you know what i mean like is it but you are the you know when it's often just you and the artist in a room how are you defining that sound versus another sound it's always the the the it's always the

is this like palette that emerges. So those are perfect examples. Like when we're working on chemtrails, it was like the stories that she was telling and where she was, especially after Norman, and it was this very like specific moment for her. It's like this palette started to emerge.

And there was like these like kind of like like a song like Tulsa Jesus freak for me was a really important like one of the first things. There's a lot of messing around. And then you hear something and you're like, oh, there's that tiny. sliver in all of the universe and culture that we want to like dive through because it feels untouched and there's these like they were like punchy but kind of like grimy rhythmic sounds

but then there was acoustics but then there was this like really like distonal low end you know you can start to actually see what the hell it is but it comes from magic and and then completely on the flip side you know that magic i remember certain songs like i remember having that moment with a song called mastermind on midnight where There was this like bubbling art and it was very minimal. But then we were doing a lot of vocal production. And then it was kind of like shimmering. And you know, you just start to get these things where what you feel is,

holy shit, that's, that's it. That's the story the artist is telling us. The feeling of this moment, you know, even when we're not in the studio and we're hanging out, that's the feeling. I finally fucking hear it. And once you hear it, which you can't plan, you can't say it's going to be 12 string and this and blah, blah, blah. And then the melitromal is like, that never works.

But once you actually just hear it, then you can take a step back and be like, oh, I understand. I understand why these things and then you have at least your starting point. But I, you know, I mean, I get literal in the sense that, like, you know, not using the actual same instruments or recording techniques. Compositionally, like the, this new Bleacher's album sounds, doesn't sound anything like the RCA Bleacher's albums. It's not like this sounds like, yeah.

I mean, this sounds like, you know, there's some like sea change meets Yankee Hotel Fox Trot. Like I'm in like a world that feels like. Those are big inspirations to me. Yeah, it feels like you're in a place. Like you went and you went there for this. And so when you're, that, that, it's all a growth thing. It's like the early bleachers, I'm very alone.

And so, so when I. I'm alone, I can really enjoy the experience of hearing someone try to create the sound of something huge alone. I think there's something lonely and beautiful about it. So like a lot of early bleachers, it's like you can feel me alone wishing I had people around me. And now that I do, and now that the band is grown and grown and grown. And there was a little bit in me of like a fuck you to like a system I was coming from where

it's like, you know, y'all are going to think I'm like, you think like, yeah, like, okay, I don't stream like so and so and so and so, but look at what the hell is happening on the road. I'm going to turn around and make an album that is an expression of our brotherhood on the road. So there is that little chip that went into it. But yeah, it's like the characters in your life play such specific roles in the music

or the lack of characters. And even, same thing with producing, it's like relationships I've had for a long time. The albums can sound way more, like these incredibly lonely times and being lost in one's thoughts, or they could sound like you're in a party, or they could sound like you're at dinner with friends. It's really about capturing almost like the level of loneliness

or community, me or another artist feels at any given time. And that's something that I like to get somewhat literal with, the use of reverb, the use of stacking and input. Like, you know, for example, like, is one person doing all the backups? There's nothing cooler than one person doing all the backups, but it is sad. We don't necessarily hear it that way.

Even if it's a big, beautiful pop song, when you hear one person doing all their stacks, somewhere in your soul, you realize that there's one vocalist on this song, and they have to play all the characters in their life. That's a device, whether we like it or not. It doesn't matter if it's the most major key, high-tempo pop thing. And the second, it can be the most depressing song in the world, but the second you introduce another voice, the loneliness bubble is popped. Even in the saddest songs, that person is no love.

longer alone. There are two people in my headphones. So these are things that I think about a lot and get a bit obsessively literal with based on how I want people feel when they hear the music. Yeah, that's cool. There's definitely like just going to the new Bleacher's album again. Not that that's why you're here, but there's like, I was thinking that there's some Nashville skyline in the fact that it feels, it feels live. Yeah. And it feels unlike those other albums that I mentioned, which sound like the studio albums,

Nashville, Nashville Skyline vibes feels like you could have just gone and been like, hey, you're playing piano. It's like, I don't play piano. I'm like, you are now. And you're playing this. You're like, wait, I don't even, like, that's perfect. Like, it just feels like a vibe of friends that just kind of got in a room and played, which I think was, speaking of the not alone thing, that's what it feels like. So I think you achieved that really well. And you get to a point, and I think we all work in this where it's like, you want to keep yourself really nervous.

And it's like, I know what this band can do. I know how good they can play. And now it makes me want to see like how far we can teeter on the edge, like how loose it can get. You know, when I was young. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was all about the band's got to be so tight, tight, tight, tight, tight. And then like you get the band to a level of tightness where it's like, well, now we got to deconstruct it. Like, where's like the dexies in us?

You know, like, obviously like, that's when it gets really sort of. of transcendent and wild is playing with people who have a level of expertise at something and then pushing to an even more uncomfortable place. That's why I like playing things and having my guys play things they're not necessarily good at. It brings like a fire to the place. Seriously, I write my best on something I understand the least. That's why I rarely write on guitar is because once my fingers touch a guitar, I love playing guitar or anything. But I'm automatically riddled with all of the knowledge of every song I've ever played, Every song I've ever covered, every friend I've ever had to be like, oh, it's those chords.

And it's like, but you get me off a guitar. I'm just humming in my head. I don't have the baggage of the chord changes. As complicated or as simple as they are, I'm just focused on the song. Bleachers is one of the few artists that you work with that has a male singer. What is it that? He's pretty. Okay.

I've heard that. I wouldn't say hot. He's cute. Really? Is he like... We could go to this. Before we go to that question, though I do like that question. You have a personal life during all this stuff.

Yeah. Wow. Me asking you if I'm hot led you to think to yourself that I got married. Well, yeah, because I feel like you could be when you could be a guy who's on... Just say it, Ross. Just say it. I just wanted you to be single for this and you're not anymore. I didn't want to be single for her.

I wanted you to be single for today. Oh, for today? Yeah, for this. I thought you remember this phase of my life and I was like, you dog. No, I want you to be single for today. For today only. No, I don't, I've spent my whole life trying to make relationships work and I finally found the one that was meant to work. But I've always really wanted to.

There's a similarity there. And a lot of the themes we're talking about collaboration, leading a band, these things of, you know, You have to find in life, your person and in your art, your people, or a person. But, but, and if you find those people, kind of like what we're talking about of the great sessions, everything's possible. Everything's possible. You know, like eating better is possible. Like, you know, getting on the travel number, everything's possible. And when you're not, nothing's possible. You're just like never going to get there. And so, you know, finding my partner has also in this back and forth

made my work infinitely better, beyond more hopeful than I've ever been. Do you want to build a family with children and stuff? With you? Sure. Let's do it. Because in isolation, you just said, do you want to build a family with children?

You, me, Jackie, and my kids. I just like the, maybe you guys isolate the Clapper Ross just says, do you want to build a family with children? Do you want to build a family with random children? With children. Somebody asked me to say that to me the other day. They were like, they're like, I have one. They were like, oh, your shoulders sore.

They're like, oh, is it from carrying children? I said, well, just mine. You know, it's just like, this weird image. It's just like, ah. Yeah. Just Ross carrying children around the neighborhood. Like, is there time for you to do that kind of thing? Do you, I have more time than people.

I mean, I always, I feel like the only people who really understand me and understand that I'm like not that busy, which is why I resent the question from you is people like yourself. Because you know how people work. You know how people work. And I work hard, but I'm, there's people in this town that are two a day.

Right. Fucking Nashville, there's three a day, motherfuckers. Like, there people are out. I'm very focused. And I think what people are really reflecting on is that the work is specific. But yeah, sometimes it makes me feel a little bad when people put that on me.

I'm like, no, no, no, you should make some other people. I love that. I like that clarity because I think that the archetype is, when you were talking about the extremes, there's the 40 years ago version of a producer and a writer who doesn't know how to define self. and I think one of the realizations I've had recently is I look at some of these writers, producers, artists who are constantly on the road,

constantly in studios, at least what they should promote themselves as. And I know they have families. And they used to think that they showed as workaholics. I was like, man, I wish I had that work ethic. And all they're showing is a lack of discipline. and a sadness within this workaholism. And I tend to not look at those people as something I aspire to be,

even if they may have infinitely more cuts than I ever will have. You can see in someone's eyes usually if they have a piece in them. But I also think that it really depends. I remember when I was younger and worked with people who had this all-night spirit to them and it really is whatever gets you going. Like, I think, I think the idea that anyone can work in any way is absurd. I do my best work in the morning. Yeah, same. I feel a clarity. What time is morning for you? Whenever it is, depends where I am in the world, you know, but just I would, I define morning as honestly before I eat. There's something happens to my,

like, like, soul. Once I, like, eat something, I feel like, like, awake in a way where if I, you know, go to like noon or one or something and haven't really eaten and I'm just more getting out these like free thoughts. I do a lot of, I obviously don't just work in the morning, but I'm not someone who finds inspiration at four in the morning fucked up in the studio or even just four in the morning not fucked up at all. I've had moments, but all you can do is like, yeah, like we're sold as, you know, very few other people. I think it's because there's like a mythology, to what we do. We're sold so much concept of how we're supposed to be doing it so much.

And it's really just extremely personal. And I've worked really hard to do it in my way. But I do agree that I find that people's understanding of it is sort of like the film and TV version of like shooting some heroin, lighting a candle and writing the best song, or like being in the studio for 96 hours straight. described like rent. Yeah, but yeah, but no one, I think the reason why we're so poorly represented in the movies is because it's so hard to actually show that moment.

It's also really boring to watch. It is until, it's so internal until that moment. Like the feeling I get when I hear the thing that sounds like this, like part of my soul, I don't like go like this. Like I just have the feeling and I actually go, honestly, I probably go like, like that. I start, then the wheels start turning. The only time, there's that

clip that Taylor had in her documentary where she happened to be filming the moment we were writing the bridge of getaway car, and it became something that like a lot of people saw, and I really understand why of all the clips that have been out there of me in the studio, and it's because it's the only time that I've ever been a part of something

or even really seen, you know, I haven't seen too many examples of this in documentary or not, where the actual moment, the actual moment when we're shouting the words at each other and having that outward, not inward moment of realizing what something is she captured. And it made sense to me that like that became something that because that that's the dream.

That's the dream is that you're shouting at someone else and you're getting the part in real time. But those are very, very moments. There's moments. Let's talk about the Taylor stuff. There's levels of. of success, as people describe where she's at right now, it's bigger than Madonna got. It's as big as, at least, you know, Michael Jackson and Madonna and the Beatles and Elvis.

And it's so like it's become something just bigger than the artist you met in the beginning. And she was huge then. being the main co-writer with her for multiple albums now, or at least one of a couple, you know, do you feel pressure to repeat stuff? How are you coping with the fame aspect? No, I feel just joy about the world is so insular that I feel just nothing but like utter pride and joy and,

and what we've done. And whenever we do it again, I'm always, like, thrilled and surprised. But it's also, it's like, yeah, I don't know. It's very hard for me to, sometimes it sounds like bullshit or pandering when I'm like, oh, the room is so small. But it really is.

And that's where I am. That's where I am all the time. It's where she is all the time. It's, you know, I mean, the discipline of keeping one's life against all aspects, normal is also one of the reasons, you know, why there continues to be a wealth of things to write about. But I really am there. So like when I go see the show and stuff like that and it's like the most incredible transcendent, massive thing.

Like I'm very much have one foot in like the room when it's just me and her or me her and Laura. And that's the perspective I come from is just like, oh my God, look at this. the juxtaposition is crazy to me. So I'm pretty like locked in that zone. But I know, yeah, it sounds like pandering or whatever to wax on about how simple and normal it is when it's being made. But it is.

And it's really the story of how all the records are made. It's the story of me in the studio. Like there just isn't, there's very few people around. There isn't some overblown atmosphere. And so I'm so focused on that. and then even like I draw the same comparison to like this weekend I were like playing big shows it's like the juxtaposition of that and then just being with my band

who are like the people I like sit next to all day it's like so much of your heart and soul is just there and then the rest is kind of like something that is like an energy flying around did any of that make sense Ross? Yeah I mean I think some of it's for you some of it's for them you know it's like I just stay in my you know when you're when you're with you're you're

you end up being with your friends on a bus, your friends in a studio, and you're trying to tell that story, you know there are people listening potentially, but it, you know, the show is for them. I think a lot of the writing is for them, too, but that's another conversation. I think the writing is kind of for, well, I think it's like a backwards, I think the way you can most write for other people is to just most write for yourself, which is why, you know, if you try to, you know, this is why Taylor's one of the greatest songwriters of all. time. She's just like digging deeper and deeper into her story and her soul and her perspective.

And it's this belief that people are emotionally brilliant that actually allows you to reach people. It's the belief, you know, the darkest part of this world would be the belief that people aren't brilliant. That's where the least valuable, emotionally valuable songs come from. And then the most valuable songs come from a place where you just believe, oh, I can, I can go to the part of myself that's so deep that I would barely want to even whisper it, let alone put it in a song and blast it out to the whole world. That's the through line between all the greats. Her discipline to composition and math in a way is so different than, like, Lord.

You know, like the way they seem to write. Everyone I've ever worked with is so different. I don't know if I could ever... Not discipline and, like, they're not disciplined, but I'm saying, like, in a sense that... I feel the lineage of the Swedes when I hear Taylor songs. Oh, I don't really? Yeah. Oh, it's interesting.

Maybe this is just from my experience in the room, but I feel like everyone I work with has like their own like internal clock. Yeah. Where it's like their own like rhyming sequences that just like come out in a way that is. Everyone I work with and probably why I have such connection. I feel like they're all like, it's just a little over here. Like it's like, it's a little this way and feeling, just like one's lyrics must be completely specific to their life. I like when one's internal clock of like how they rhyme, how they choose to fuck up the rhyme, like, you know, is so specific to them.

That's why I always sort of get so sad about the idea that there's a way. Interesting. Because just all, you know, how much, how funny is it that there's so many times that people, are like dissecting songs like one of my least favorite things is like when like a brilliant classical musician dissects a pop song and like explains why it works and it's like oh is that why oh really it has nothing to do with the just completely unfathomable magic of a few simple elements coming together to bring something that feels absolutely of someone's soul why don't you do it um sorry but but but but as there in a cover like a really yeah yeah yeah

It's like, oh, cool. You know, I'm not going to sit here and tell you, like, how a lawnmower works. Like, I don't fucking know. But I feel that when I watch a lot of these things, which obviously get served to me, and I'm just, like, you know, sitting on a tarmac watching the shit about, like, people breaking down songs, they're always telling you that, like, well, this is weird. Well, this is sort of against the rules. And maybe that's why it worked.

And it's like, it's always funny. It's almost like the lessons are right there. if you just listen to them. And you could look at past charts. You could look at touring success. You could look at just the stuff that resonates. You could look at all these things. But the point I'm making is it's always that person's internal instinct that is more valuable

than any sort of proven math. Yeah. That takes, this is where you've like now ended up in like the wise seat. in your career? No. Yeah. Hell yeah. Fuck me, really.

Yeah, because you wanted the hot seat. You said I was in the cute seat. Now you're in the wise seat. And then you asked me if I wanted to have a family. When, um, one of the most infuriating things about, no, no, fuck that. You're giving me more wise than I am.

You have like a peace in your eyes and a calmness. Oh, I appreciate that. I'm like a buzzing, like, you know. There's no way that you, like, you in a room when you've got, an artist who comes in who's like I want to do an album like you need to have somebody

who's grounded enough to finish what they started and that's like and that's really hard a lot of people are buzzing around so much that they can't there's a neon sign in that room that says genius geniuses finish things you know it's like you can

there's so many you're around people who fall into this genius category because they finish the projects they start. But you know a lot of artists who come in with pieces of ideas and another and they start working on the next idea. If you aren't the one who's like, relax, let's finish this idea. Let's finish this idea. We can come back to this idea because this one deserves to be finished. But it needs that person who's helping that artist finish things. And I feel like you, like these these projects i think what's so impressive is that you do focus on finishing these

projects and not every artist has that person with them helping them do that navigating that's them i mean a lot it it's not to say that they like it just helps to have somebody you are not buzzing on to the next thing until you're done well one way i mean i think i think all i think the genius comes from the work. And then I think the only part that can be learned is to block out everything else. So it's like I've always known, you know, I don't really relate to like not knowing when something's done. Like I've always had a gut feeling since I was a kid.

I was like, that's it. You know, and same thing when it's not done. You can't. But I think that there's, I think that there's, I think that, you know, all artists have this magic in them. and then there's like a protection that has to happen. And that's, I guess this is a bit like the sad part where I don't like it when people get messed with. And this is why I keep my circle really small because there's so much vulnerability.

Right. So like it doesn't matter how massive an artist is or whatever. Like when you're creating something, it's a house of cards. And the last thing you need is some fucking person coming in there who's having a bad day or might not realize that they're projecting something that hasn't, haven't doing anything else, come in and be like, oh, that high hat blows. Ooh, like the room will just deflate.

And it's like, we'll fix the hi-hat if it did blow. You know, like we'll get, like these are not the things that matters. We're like much like how a baby isn't totally formed. Like, the baby's going to get formed. We're not worried about that. We're not worried about that. We're worried about creating an environment where the baby can get formed. And I've had too many experiences which now I will never let happen where you let an energy or a person or a voice into a process that isn't protecting it, almost like a chemical or something.

And to me, you know, the artist spirit and myself and people I work with is so pure that the protection of the process, if you really just do that, this is why I think great things are made with small groups of people all believe. living in one thing. Like, you know, like, as a writer, I think you are at your best. If someone says, I love your perspective, let's just lock the fuck in. Let's just, let's just, you know, because then, like, it doesn't help the writer or the producer to have that buzzy anxiety of something flying around a million rooms. And it doesn't help, I think the artist to have a million opinions. it's like the greatest bodies of work are made by like a group of people that all see something

the same way and then like Gooney style it's like we're going to fucking go for it together and and the more you can have that all all the all the things that I've ever felt were were successful and loved came from like a group of people who just like we believe in each so much nothing else matters and so we like walk together and yeah I've had too many things when I was younger and I've learned the lesson just you know by playing things or showing someone where because of their experience. And it's not for everyone. Nothing's for everyone.

Go back to the question about why is it, you know, adding to that list, Florence and the Machine, these women feel comfortable opening up around you and you seem to feel confident around these women. Is it by what in your life created, you know, I don't know that we can curate our discography. I get this question all the time. I have no good answer for it.

And I don't, I mean, I work with plenty of men also. They're obviously, but I don't know. I have no good answer. And every time I get it in a totally non-combative way, I'm always like, I think this is for someone else to figure out. Because I don't, I'm not, I don't choose the things I work on ever. They kind of happen. You know, like every great relationship I've had has literally happened.

Like met someone randomly. a conversation leads to a thing. Like, even the newest relationship I've had that has meant so much to me with Sabrina. It's like, I've been a fan of her as forever. I was playing a bleacher show. I literally saw her in their arms. I was like, oh, man, Sabrina's here. And then two weeks later, I randomly run into her at this thing where we had a mutual friend at.

And that led to a conversation, which led to eventually, like, sitting down and talking about music. Like, it's so, the randomness to it is. is what I think allows me to function fully on gut. Yeah. But I don't know. I don't know the answer to that. You've won producer of the year the last three years. And, you know, a lot of these things are out of our control.

How songs, when songs come out, albums come out, how they're received. It's even out of my control of my own. brand sometimes. Like, I feel like it's... Like, even within, like, I'll finish your record and I'll be like, okay, this is it, this is what I want to put it out. And then things will happen and final pressing plants or this or that

or touring schedules, like, it's so what we do is so fucking volatile. In a cool way, but there is volatility. But you're now in, you know, I'll say it, you don't have to say it, but like, you're a future songwriter Hall of Famer. You are,

Thanks, Ross. You know, you are in the, you are in the, just the highest level of creativity right now in the history of recorded music. But who's my first call, right? Hey! Who let me in the room.

Who let me in the room, and it was sweet to me. And I will never say the name. But I had one other session that weekend after you. And it was different. And it would have broken my spirit if you didn't open the door for me. I appreciate that. Sorry to cut you off.

That means a lot. That means a lot. How do you... When we talked about all these people who are on extremes of what the archetype is of a songwriter-producer, and you don't have to compare to Babyface. You guys don't write the same. You don't create the same kind of music. But in this world where the...

there's so much music being released, are there producers that you look to that inspire you currently? Oh yeah, very much. Like who? Soundwave is one of my all-time favorite producers. I get lucky enough to work with him. I'm endlessly inspired by him. Sam Doo is probably my favorite songwriter of all time and singer. I get pretty, like, laser-focused.

I get like, you know, but I love, I think a lot about, I know this is, someone has been around longer, but I think a lot about Jefflin in the sense that I find so much of his work with band music and pop music, live instrumentation, synthetic instruments, the way he brings them all together, like odd and subversive, like things like smashing together in this glorious way. I'm inspired by his dedicated. his production work and his band. There's not a lot of people that I feel that sort of connection with.

I love a lot of more of the wooden, organic national producers. But yeah, when you say who's like my favorite producer, I right away think it sound wave. He just has this, in his words, he says he likes to like, I forget his quote perfectly, but he likes to like pull the pedals off of the flower a little bit. And one time I heard him say that. And then now I, when I work with him, I hear that where it's like he'll, you know, take the thing. That's perfectly great and go.

And yeah, I guess what it is. I just, I hear that perspective he has in it, endlessly inspired by it. And Sam Doe as a songwriter, I feel like, like, I don't know if he would feel this way, but I never read a lyric he wrote that didn't feel like. like a little beam of light out of someone's like soul. It's almost like an incapability of being anything, but just like absolute deepest. One of the things that's amazing about your production that's also infuriating is the...

Yes, Ross. The thought of like you listen to it and you're like, oh, I could do that because there's no. not the wall of sound when you're talking about the Phil Specter stuff. It's like the Jeff Lynn thing. It's like, oh, I could, I mean, I can do free falling. Like, for sure I can write that song. You know? It's like I listen to like midnight. I'm like, oh, you know, like this is, I mean, amongst, obviously there's a lot of stuff. But, you know, this ability to make every choice count. Well, I, that is like, that is so, that is so amazing to be,

able to have the confidence to not be like, I'm going to throw everything at this production and then make it so you can't tell what instrument is where. Like, that is not, that is not the music you're doing. You're doing music where it's like, this synth, I want you to focus on this synth right now. I want to hear this, I want you to feel this kick, but I want you to focus on this synth. While there's a counter melody here, it's like, it's so thorough in its simplicity. and that's what makes a lot of what you do so genius and unique to you.

That to me is just I, that's just George Martin thinking, which I grew up on listening to endless Beatles music. And maybe it's like, maybe it's the way they like paint with such a big brush with the panning where they show you that so specifically in those recordings. But like I just love Jeff Lynn, obviously, Petty. it's a similar thing where there's, it's actually something

that I've become almost like militant about because everyone is on this like quest for loudness which I think is, which I think is the most inside baseball thing ever. I have never heard one person in the world be like,

I love this new album, but it's not as loud as this album. You know, because you know what someone does is they turn it up. And then they move on with their fucking life, you know,

the way that people hear music and headphones and cars, and cars in their house is they put it on and then they adjust it to their liking. And then they never fucking think about a bunch of us sitting around taking a precious, precious thing and then shitting on it just to make sure it hits as hard as possible. That's really funny. Yeah, I mean, the irony of the, I guess, well, so it's something I've always loved is space for the listener, right? I just did a thing where I was walking through the proletal session,

please, please, please, which is a perfect example. I was thinking a lot about ELO and ABA, these vocal stacks in your head that are like beams of like, you know, like God's rays shooting down from heaven. You know, like they sound like a hundred vocal stacks, right? But they're not. You know, that song, for example, is a lead and two doubled harmonies. That's five.

And then there's three really, really, really quiet, mirrors of the lead that are really just sort of me using actual vocals as reverbs and delays instead of plugging them, setting them off and running into things. So essentially, it's not this many, but at the most, it's four, five, six, it's eight. But it really is more like five, okay? That's the entire chorus stack. And when I was going through the session, I was talking about how the impression of bigness, and this is the same thing, this goes for writing, very much too. the impression of bigness is so much more powerful than bigness. If something is a fact, there is no longer any space for the listener, right?

If something is a fact, then no one needs to know about it. It's just a floating fact, like a million facts, right? We think about our favorite recordings and our favorite songs, and very often we don't remember that we're a character in that. We don't need to remember that because it's our life. and when making something, if you push it to the max, you are literally creating no space for people. Like, no space for people.

And if you want to use that as an aesthetic tool, that's really cool. But, yeah, like, if I'm putting things here and zero anything out and using things in, like, minimal ways just to, I also, like, you know, if there's a sinflying here I want you to focus on, I imagine, like, the person staring at it. And then if like the kick starts to, you know, take control here, I imagine the person like in it. And then if like the vocal spread out, I imagine the person going like that. And I always, for me, I'm not trying to sell this as any kind of like hot take or anything.

But for me, it's really important to imagine the listener as like a human being who's like in the sonic space with me, not looking at the sonic space. Yeah. Do you write and mix with visuals? Like actually, you know, visual stuff? I don't. I work with people who do sometimes. I mean when the Olympics were going on, I'd play that a little bit. But I don't.

I don't have a TV in the studio. But I work in studios that sometimes doing it. I'm always fascinated with those people who like to have a visual white noise. No, I'm a little like very locked into the instrument or the screen. Do you have OCD? I think so. Yeah. No, no, I think I got like a little cocktail of things going on that if I grew up in a different time would have been.

I mean, I was one of those kids. Like, I performed very poor. in school. So, like, I was put on those kind of drugs. Yeah. And then I performed even worse, but my music got better because I got, like, really like... I'm dyslexic, and I wasn't diagnosed as dyslexic when I was younger because you wouldn't dare be diagnosed as dyslexic when we were younger. And the reason why I read intros slowly and why I exaggerate stuff is because I struggle reading it. Oh, I have a very hard time reading. So it was like a compensate the way I

No yeah more of the same generation where it was like If you didn't like devour books you were a fucking moron And I really have a very I can read But I really don't read in a way that Other people who enjoy reading books do it My mind wanders But yeah when I when I was diagnosed with something You know I was just sort of like they put me on Adderall when I was younger

And like I said my grades got worse But then I would go home And I was like I was basically a 13-year-old on Coke. I was like, and I made so much music. And maybe really helped because I had like a VS 840, which was a recording system on not floppy disk, but it was like harder.

Yeah, whatever. ADAP. No, it wasn't ADD, it was a Zip disc. Ah, yeah. Zip disc, which is a zip disk. Zip disc. It's a thing no one will ever know about in the future. But I would just come home and go and just like,

and I learned so much from, you know, whatever like, you know, government substance they had me on. I'm going to name five things. You're going to say what comes off the top of your head. Okay. And then I'm going to say bye so you can get to your next interview. But five, oh, that's exciting. Fire.

I think it's just carbon. I think it's just carbon. I'm, okay. Five things. Danger. albums for God God Ross

Hot singles Front door Taylor Swift The best there is Electric Lady Lamb The best there is Margaret

The best there is Well thanks for coming back Hold on but hold on Wait let me just really quick Okay One notch further on this game And if anything bad happens, you can cut it.

That's fine. So now, I don't know if you were play this, my friend calls it First Mouth. Not even words, whatever, like just open, whatever comes out. Ready? Ready? Eyes. Blada. Exactly.

Anything. Ready? Beard. Red. Red. Red. Red. Okay.

Ready. House. Big. Face. Noses. But even sooner. Oh. Like, just like anything.

I'm going to put this down. Hold on. Ready? Let's play this for a minute. Okay. Hold on. Anything. Anything. Anything. Okay. Shoes. Gold. Interesting, right? Ross.

Tall. Why'd I say that? I want to kind of take it back. That's the ending. No, no, that's beautiful. I mean, you can cut it. It's your show. You know, it's weird? My son is like in the 99th percentile in height, and it's not from my side. Maybe I just think I look at him, and I think he looks just like I did when I was three. But he's really tall. The game worked.

It brought us to a beautiful place of you seeing sort of what you... Well, okay, here's a beautiful thing. It's like, I talk about aging gracefully a lot. And I think when people think of that, they think about the elders in the business. And I think of that aging gracefully as the youth in the business who should look at people who are surviving for a long time. And one of the things we first sat down and started talking before the cameras were rolling

was how one thing will keep you in this business. And that's authenticity. Yeah, that's what we were talking about. It's the only currency. And we've known each other now long enough. And every time I see you, I get excited. I mean, I know we talked about it in that last episode too. but like I've seen you out in the wild

we've we text every once in a while and I think it's because from the outset it's like ah that person's authentic we made an authentic song once totally and you know the second song we made was really important in a time when you know March March came out

and then all of a sudden the Me Too movement happened and that song was used during women's marches in D.C. Yeah, no, Natalie. Natalie knew what she wanted to do in that moment. Like, that's incredible. You know, that's incredible to be part of these things. I've never seen you out in the world and you pretended like you didn't know me.

And that means a lot to me. Seriously, people are weird out there. I appreciate you. I'm excited to do this when you win the next three years in a row. All right, Ross. Do you think by then you might call me hot or my slogan to be cute to you? Final, final question. Take it however you want.

Okay, sure. Do you want to have a family with kids? I could be asking that question. Yeah. It could be someone in the past. I was asking you. You know what? I want to...

Be with me. Be with you. And I want to make kids with you. I don't know how that happens. Last one. You ready? We can make music kids. Ready?

Ready? Ready? Ready? Ready? Hand. Plants. Nice. This episode is produced by Joe London,

Mega House Manist and myself. See you all next week. I'm Ross Golan signing off.