And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 201: apg live event (Grizz,London Jae,Kevin White,Lowell)

Episode Date: December 30, 2024

This week, we highlight a live panel for APG’s 20th anniversary, hosted by Ross Golan. The event honors not just a company, but a community of artists, songwriters, producers, and all those who believe in the power of music to inspire, challenge, and connect us.Twenty years ago, APG set out with a bold vision: to be an independent powerhouse for both music publishing and artist development. Founded by Mike Caren, APG has grown into a unique space where creativity thrives and where artists can build their brands and realize their visions on their own terms. It’s been a launchpad for incredible talent like Charlie Puth, Kehlani, Kevin Gates, Ava Max, and so many others. But more than that, it’s been a platform where music creators are empowered to succeed on every level—whether it’s securing partnerships across film, TV, and advertising, or finding the best possible collaborations with writers and producers who help bring their music to life. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to And The Writer Is with Ross Golan. There are millions of singers, thousands of artists, and only 40 songs per genre at a time. These are the stories of the hottest creatives, the most venerable legends, artists, songwriters, executives, and more. Follow our socials and share your music with the And The Writer is community. We'll see you all there. And now, here's this week's episode. Welcome to And The Writer Is. I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's panel is here with me to celebrate the 20th anniversary of APG and is brought to you by Spotify.

What is artist partner group, aka APG? It's a community of artists, songwriters, producers, and all those who believe in the power of music to inspire a challenge and connect us. It was founded by one of our generation's greatest A&R. persons. Former and the writer is guest, Mike Karen. It's been a launching pad for artists like former guest Charlie Puth, Kevin Gates, and Ava Max, but it's the relationships writers like me have made through APG that is its true legacy. There are now multiple generations of industry professionals whose antecedents are rooted in the culture created here. Some Hall of Fame worthy label executives were once assistance here.

Some Hall of Fame superproducers were once runners here. And some podcast host had his first real single through here. So with that in mind, and to celebrate this glorious institution, I'd like to introduce you to the current generation of APG Legends. And the panel is, Lull, London J, Kevin White, and Go! Grizzly. Let's go. Hey guys.

How's it going? Hello. So usually we do, you know, one-on-one conversation, so I'm getting to know you guys through your silhouettes because there's a son right behind you. But you guys all look pretty, so thanks. You know, you guys each had significant hits this year, some Grammy nominations, some billion stream songs. So, you know, we'll start with Lowell.

nominated for Beyonce's Texas Hold'em. Solid record. Kevin White. Artemis is, I like the way you kiss me. Already at a billion streams. London, Jay and Go Gris. Yeah, Glow for Glorilla for Best Rap Song at the Grammys. Man, let's go down the line.

Where are you from? I'm from Atlanta. Where are you from? Where are you from? Columbus, Ohio. Columbus, Ohio. Toronto, Ontario. Okay.

Each of those places have some amazing music legacy. Who introduced you to music first? I would say my parents, you know, they was very hip to all the new music at the time when I was a kid, so I got hip to all the new Lil Wayne, 50 cent, Kanye, outcast, even the old stuff from like the cash money era, Master P and all that. So I was always hip. London, how about you? Probably like the same.

Probably my uncle. He was like a singer and shit back in the day. Your uncle? Yeah, he was like a singer. Like my dad was too, but it was more so my uncle. He was more like hands-on. Was he an artist or was he an uncle who could sing? It was kind of like both because he,

he can't sing. He's a singer who can't sing. Yeah, but he usually like try to teach me how to sing. But that's how I kind of got introduced to music. Kevin, how about you? Yeah, I think it was my parents, like playing, you know, old records and stuff when they'd have people over for parties and you just kind of see what they're in do, and then it kind of goes from there.

What kind of music was that? Oh, man, it was like hauling notes. Steely Dan Like Led Zeppelin from time to time Pink Floyd if the mood was right Yeah Lowell Yeah same family

I mean I My dad is kind of a weirdo But he He let us listen to like three CDs Basically my entire childhood It was like Johnny Cash Hank Williams And this one like Elvis

Greatest Hits So the Texas Holder thing was pretty fun Because it makes sense Johnny Cash. It does. Your dad being a weirdo, what does that mean? He lives in the Yukon,

which is Canada's Alaska, and I'm pretty sure any money he has is buried in gold underground, and we didn't have a TV till I never had a TV. So if you're ever wondering why I am the way I am.

Does he communicate, do you talk to him now? Is he aware of the success that you've had this year? He actually, No joke called my friend's mom and said who is Beyonce. And now that he has an idea that she's an artist who recorded your song and now you're going to go to the Grammys, does he feel any which way about that?

I don't know if he knows that I'm nominated for a Grammy. He did say the other day, I didn't know Beyonce had kids. And I was like, Dad, you didn't know who Beyonce was six months. ago. Like, how would you know she has kids? Well, now he knows. So there you go. Kevin, how did your parents react to having, you know, you've obviously had some success before, so this isn't the first time you've had a hit.

But, you know, parents worry after the first hit, it's been a couple years since you've had that big of a hit. You know, how did they react to such a massive song? I mean, I don't think they fully understood what I think was happening, because it was

such a, you know, TikTok quickly rising viral song. But my dad gets pretty excited about like the billboard charts. So I'd get texting calls every week, every like Monday or Tuesday. But yeah, I mean, you know, they've always been

incredibly supportive and, you know, would never have a chance to even be here without them. So they were pretty hyped up. Yeah. Lennar, how about you? Does your uncle feel like you surpassed him? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, for the record, he can't sing, but I didn't like it. He can say it, but I didn't like it. But, yeah, like, it's like my mom for me, though. Like, she, like, support everything I do. She still think I'm 12 or something. Are you going to bring, are you going to bring anybody to the awards? Yeah, I probably fly everybody here.

Yeah, just to be honest, be honest, yeah. You have to. Yeah, like my wife, kids. everybody coming. What did your family say? Man, everybody is pretty ecstatic, man. It's been a long time coming, so it's like

everybody has been able to see the journey and they know like, shit, I've been at it for a long time. Yeah. To finally get the recognition, it feels great, you know? You know, you're saying, you know, they've been there the whole journey. The journey started somewhere.

What's the first song that you ever showed them? The first song that anybody ever recorded on my beat that meant anything to anybody was actually Young Thug. That's your first? Yeah. This was way before Young Thug was like, Young Thug. You know what I'm saying? How did you hear it?

Cleveland half, man, with the teeth, like, you know what I'm saying? But it was called Loaded. It was him, Jose Guapo, and Young Scooter. And I was in high school when that song came out. You produced that in high school? Yeah. It was before I was Go Gris. I was Big Dre at the time.

Imagine it. Wait, so you're in high school. What were you producing on? FL Studio, same as now. And who showed you even how FL Studio worked? I graduated from YouTube University. So, you know, that taught me everything. That and trial in error.

Yeah, for real. I overly put my 10,000 hours in. So it's like, ever since day one, I was racking my brains on, yo, I hear it in my head, but why can't I get it out on the computer? Hey, now I'm a master. You feel him? Yeah. I mean, I think there's like 10 things you said there that are important for everyone in this room to hear.

But, you know, that 10,000 hours to make you an expert is a well-studied philosophy. And you have to, you know, you're born. A lot of the people here are born with taste, but they don't necessarily have the skill to match the taste that they have. and what makes people successful in this business are people who recognize that their taste is good and that if they build the skill well enough that they'll be able to occasionally match the level that they hear.

So, you know, when you're first starting out and you're producing out these songs that are like, man, I hear that, I hear that that's so good. Like, I know I can do that, and then you do it, and it's not good. And it's the person who goes back and is like, I'm going to try it again. I'm going to try it again. I'm going to try it again.

Just because out of the desire to match your own taste, if you can match your taste, then you will be very successful in this business. But you don't have to match your taste all the time. You just have to get it a few times. And then you can celebrate all the way in fucking high school. Screw you, man. It took me forever. So I'm super jealous of that. What was your first song? the first song I wrote the first song you showed anybody in the world

oh ever in life yeah that's a crazy story yeah what's that yeah it was I was in like maybe sixth grade and that was back when I we used to record

I used to put like tissue in the top of like a cassette tape right and you put it on both sides and you stick it back in in the thing and then you hit play and and it was like two, the first two buttons, I don't remember what they was, but whatever they were.

And they recorded, like, we used to use, like, the headphones, like, the right side of the headphones. And then you record, whatever you're saying, you can record it like that, right? So I made this tape for my girlfriend at the time, right? In sixth grade. Yeah, it was six. So at the time, like, nobody knew I knew how to sing. Like, I never would do it in front of people. So, like, now my family didn't know.

Nobody knew. So I made the tape. And I remember, like, getting out the car, I was going to give it to her, like, for Valentine's Day, right? Terrible I did. So I get out of the car, and, like, at school, like, my mom dropping us off, I get out of the car, and I didn't know it fell out. Like, I didn't know it fell out of my coat. So I go to school. So I'm in school, I'm like, what the hell is the tape?

Like, I can't find the tape. I can't find the tape. I can't find a tape. So I get out of school, and I get in the car. My mom and my sister's, I got a big family, right? So my mom and my sisters, like, they all pick me up from school. So I get in the car and they're like quiet as hell. I'm like, what the fuck?

Well, everybody's so quiet because they like make noise, noise. So nobody's saying nothing. So we're riding and out of nowhere it just come on the radio. Like they played it. I was so fucking mad and embarrassed. I'm like, what the fuck is y'all doing with this tape? That shit's still, like they never let it go. What's the song called?

It was Can We Talk? Was it good? No. It's kind of a good title. It's a good title, though. No, it was Tim and Campbell's song. I just sung it. Oh, you just.

I got it. I get it. So it was like a karaoke version of it. Yeah. I just recorded myself saying it. That is pretty funny. It's terrible, man. Oh, word.

But yeah, that's the first song. I will say that we've done, you know, 200 of these episodes. Usually, you know, like they're one-on-one and all. Only one other person talks about their junior high girlfriend, and it was baby face. Okay. So you're in good company. That's crazy. That's my favorite song, right?

I mean, he's... That guy, that guy was nominated six years in a row, one producer, three years in a row. I mean, to be that good for six straight years at producing, it's just mind-boggling. Kevin, what's your first song? I think it was a, like, a trance remix that I had made off of a Yamaha motif back in, like, 2004. I believe I played it for my girlfriend as well. It was not well received. What was the call?

I'd probably like Transbeat 2 or something. If I even got that far in the motif. Yeah, it was not good. I've come a long way. Lowe? I was trying to think of one. I think also in junior high, we had media studies. I don't even know why.

That was lucky. It wasn't like an art school or anything. But I think just one teacher really liked, like, media. And they had a mic, and so I recorded an album of songs that I had written at the time. And then I put it on a CD and drove it around the city for, like, two weeks trying to get the radio to play it. And someone did. I had this, like, cute little letter. I was like, 13.

I was like, please play my song. It's my first song. It was called Yellow Brick Road. How does it go? Yellow Brick Road. Take me home the world I have seen Oh you've been cool I'm about to say she's fine and I had a few friends to guide me and I had a few troubles too But now I'm through nothing left to do

Oh wow yeah that was it that was my song So is that in your schedule A? You like that that that's like a Mike Karen joke Okay um um we'll go back the other way. Who in your life is most responsible for you being here today? Mike? Maybe? That's a good answer.

I think I'm not snucking out, but I think that... How did you meet Mike? He was late. He was late to the show. I'll tell you that, because that is not Mike-like, but a lot of people knew me by then. And Mike was like, hey, like, I discovered you on band camp. I was like, bro, you're late. but luckily I just really loved him

and so despite the deal being way worse than the other ones I took it anyways but I'm just kidding well you know he has those like early deals like he's like hey you're new I'll give you this one but man I started so good when I was like Mike

and then I just like spiraled backwards but I will say the reason why I say that I'm here because of him. I think that when I first came to LA, I've always been creative, had good ideas and all the things. I think that he really helped me harness what that meant and really inspired my more out there mind

and showed me that there's so much method to the madness. And I think that really reinvigorated me at a time where I was almost wanting to give up because it's like you're trying to do these songs and you're realizing like artists aren't even taking songs anymore. And like there's this like one guy and he's just like, yeah, no, no, they still take songs here, and you just have to be smart about it,

and you have to, like, make sure you're putting out tens, and you're, like, not just, you know, making half songs every day. Like, you're in there and you're working, and so I think it just gave me that, like, extra wind that I needed. I remember one of my artists, uh, a writer saying, you know, he came out to me and it's just like, I think I'm, I'm going to quit writing. It's like, you don't understand. Like, you may be already sitting on the song that,

will, that is a hit. Like, you don't, you just don't know. You have to keep going. And the thing is, like, when you wrote Texas Holam, it wasn't a hit. It wasn't a hit until it came out and was received. But it doesn't mean you weren't writing hits. Like, so many people are writing hits in this room and have hits that are either an artist has already cut and hasn't released or it's sitting on your, you know, whatever,

your hard drive or your phone or whatever. And it's like, it doesn't mean it's not a hit just because it hasn't been a hit yet. and it's like you really do have to kind of keep your head down and keep going and it definitely helps to have people like Mike for that. Kevin how are you who is most who in your life was you know most responsible for you to be here today. So I mean I think it has to go back to the mom particularly because I was I was like a junior in college at the University of Kentucky was majoring in partying and yeah not not much school going on and she was just like one day was like, hey man, like, what are you going to do? Like, you can't just keep going to school

and, like, do nothing. Um, and I had always been, like, really into music and played piano, and I kind of gave it up for a while and thought I'd do, you know, something else like business or whatever. And, um, so she was just kind of, her and my father, you know, supported me to transfer schools, major in music. And then they were really, you know, supportive through the years where we weren't really making any money. So the, kind of the boring answer, but very true. I mean, it's not boring because you're here. It might be boring if you stayed in business school

and you're like, she was like, no, you really should stay here and do that. That's a more boring story. It's a less boring story. Lina, how about you? Probably my mom. Like, my mom, she's

real supportive. Like, like I said, she still think I'm 12, so she's still like I get to eat like weekly like biweekly calls with like the most confidence on earth but she always been like that with like me and my little brother like it's always like hold your head up

you know it's like them conversations and it's like so I call her like she's like my best friend so I called her like we just talked for like five six hours shut up we like talk for like hours on the phone like while she at work and she just she just drilled that But it's literally the same conversation since I was a kid, because I was like, I played sports and da-da-da-da,

but it's literally the same conversations over and over. Head up, make sure you, like, everybody in their eyes. And it's like, it's like that drilling. So it's like I couldn't quit if I wanted to. Like she never let me quit nothing in my life. Like nothing, it don't matter what I wanted to do. Like, it was never about what I wanted. It's about like, like, she gave you this light,

little depth stare like you gonna let me down and you like damn oh i got you so i just keep going and that's it it's your yeah i'm kind of curious how many people here you know feel like if they quit they're letting down somebody at home you know it's like whatever motivates you to still go in the thing and if it's you know if part of the thing is once like once you put it out there And it's like, all right, I'm going to be a songwriter. I'm going to be a musician. If you're going to do it for real, you have to do the thing. Or it's not a matter of getting Grammy nominations in the billion streams.

It's a matter of like they're proud that you're still doing it. It's like it's the process that they're proud of. You know, how about you? Who's responsible for? I mean, the cute shit to say would be mom, you know. Of course, mom always plays a part. But honestly, for me, it would have to be two people at. to get credit though it would have to be a my manager cash johns anybody that knows cash they

know why i say that and i got to give it to mike you know my manager i made him uh when i was like 16 years old through twitter actually you know i used to be in a producer group called the track team and uh we was responding to emails and stuff he was working for a management firm and um we sent a big pack of all our shit in he's like yo may this beat this beat this beat this beat this B, d'a, oh, this big Dre. Oh, yeah, I need to talk to this Dre guy. He's from New York, right? I'm from Atlanta.

So, I had a nice, long, two-hour conversation with this, man, my first time having a conversation with him. And he essentially fried my ass. Like, he grilled me. And I'm thinking, in my 16-year-old mind, like, making beats on my mom's computer in her bedroom, like, I'm just doing this for fun or whatever. He's like, nah, listen, you're actually good at this shit. And you don't have the time in the world to waste. you know, bullshitting yourself.

You could either lie to yourself and say, yeah, I got all the time in the world, or you could really get to it. Like, what the fuck does you be in 16? You had to do it. You being a hustler. Like, you need to get on top of your shit because you got a real shot. And shit, by the time I was 18 senior high school, I met Mike. It's not my first pub deal.

You know what I'm saying? So it was just, even through that journey in meeting Mike, I learned so much just about the creative process of making music, like not just being a beat maker. but a producer, you know what I'm saying? Like how to understand organization. He taught us stuff like the Seven Seas. You know what I'm saying? It's almost like he's deduced it down to an algorithm.

You know what I'm saying? And I understand why it's effective. So I feel like he definitely has created a roster of elite monsters. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, amen. You know, there's sort of the money ball aspect of music. What the Swedes get is discipline when it comes to melody. And in LA, there's a lot of people who think they're in the music industry,

and they're all in this giant race to the middle. And they just think that they're going to go and write a hit today in that session. And that's not really how hits are made. There's a certain amount of intention. even if the first draft is off the cuff and is improvised and it takes you 20 minutes to do the you know the skeleton of the song to spend four weeks to edit it would be worth it if it's a hit you know and so I think there's like this intention and discipline that comes along with appreciating the math and appreciating the form and what's unique about APG is that there's

there's the discipline within the song and then there's the business and then there's the contracts and there's discipline throughout the whole thing. So you kind of have to, when you buy into that, you know, you see, you see the results because, you know, again, it's not every song. You just have to match your taste every once in a while and you're sitting up here with massive hits. So speaking of the massive hits this year, you know, obviously you guys, worked on you know a bunch of the stuff together but how did how did the how was the song written uh it basically the same process with me like I like I got like me and grid like we would most of the time it's like we just talking in the studio

it's never like we at the studio you know like it's like more of a conversation before like more than it is like just making music or we just talk shit and laugh and watching Instagram and it's like beats. He just keep playing beats and he'll go through beats. Or like with, yeah, Glo, we kind of, we kind of figure that out from, like, from zero. So once he came with the melody for the song, I'm like, I'm like, this is. Like, fuck that.

But at the time, like, you got to think, like, even with Yale Globe, we had the record two years before it was ever cut. And I told Grids that night, I'm like, nobody gets this beat. nobody get this song. I'm like, but I didn't, I didn't know her at the time. So, I'm like, I'm gonna just sit on it. I don't care if it's 10 years. Like, it's still the same record. You know what I mean? Like, it's still, she didn't do it. So it's, it don't count yet. So we just held the song. And, but the process of making it was, it was, it was cool. It's the same. Set the scene. Like, what, what studio were you in? What time of day was it?

I want to say, what did you order for dinner? I want to say it was, it was like night. It's always night for me in Greer. Like, it's like vampire. For sure. Two and three in the morning. So this is morning right now for you. Yeah, yeah, basically.

We just getting up this time of day. So it's like 2 a.m. And we, we had the studio. And, like, my engineer, like, he caught. I remember he had text me. And he was like, how do I, um, he was like, how do I want to, because I changed mics.

And for some reason, like, I changed that night. from the Sony mic to back to the, what's the one mic I used? Yeah, the U-87. And I just remember that for some reason, because that was the day I changed back to the U-87. And I came in and it was just like a regular day. And we, like, talk shit for a while. And I'm like, let's do glow.

But it was like random. It's always random for us. I'm like, we just pick people and shoot at them. And I'm like, let's do glow. Like, fuck that. Like, let's do glow. He's like, shit, come on. But you have to think.

At this time, she's, like, smoking. Because it's like, what was the song? F&F, and tomorrow, like, this is when I made the song, it was then. Like, when she was on fire, then, that time. So once we did it, I'm like, man, we're just going to sit on this, fuck that. So I sent it to the day, I sent the Daveo,

and he sent it. It's like, no response. No, we never got a response. And I'm like, what the fuck kind of shit of this? Like, I know what this is. But because I knew what it was, it's like, I'm still not giving it this song. Like, I won't even play it for people.

I won't play it for nobody. So I end up bumping into one of my buddies, and he's like, he's like, they go up at the studio. I'm like, what's studio? He's like, oh, I got a record for him. I'm going to come up. So I came up there, and me and Gris met at the studio,

and we played it for, and she, like, like, the second she heard the song, like, no way. Oh, I'm doing this. She, like, braying up to the speaker, like in her, it's like, it's like I'm looking at her, like, see herself like, oh, shit, I'm back. Like, before she ever cut it. Like, she was just standing in front of the speaker like, oh, shit, I'm back.

And I was like, oh, shit, great, it is on. And from there, it just went bananas. Because she believed it. It wasn't just because I believed it. Like, she knew it when she heard it, what it was. Yeah. Now she back. There's a, the first song that I had,

through the APG world was this the follow-up to fuck you for Cilo. Wow. And I sent it to this A&R guy who will remain nameless, who I love. But I sent it to him. I was like, what about this for Cilow? And he's like, no. And I was like, man, I know this is good. And by the way, I did it with Ricky Reed before he was like, Ricky Reed.

It was like, you know, we were just, we were doing this. he was he had free studio time when because he was doing commercials and he had like free studio time at night so we're just doing it there or in in the condo i'm foreclosing on that he would take a bus because he didn't have a car you know um and you know this a and r guy's like no this isn't for silo and then i had a meeting with mike like eight months later and i was like hey i think this would be good for silo and he's like this is this is for celo and he's like this is for celo and it was like you you get so used to hearing like uh no like you either don't get a response or you assume they don't like it or you hear these these labels are so big that you send you think like oh uh you know whatever epic capital columbia whatever that they passed on it that's not a thing that's not a thing some guy might have passed on it if they maybe heard it and the nine other A&R people, and in some labels, 20 other A&R people have not heard it.

And the person who said no will be highly embarrassed in that A&R meeting when the other A&R guy's like, this is a smash. That person's not going to be like, I don't think so. He's going to be like, oh, yeah, I heard that first. Like, you know, success is a thousand fathers and failure as none. Like, find the other fathers out there and like send, or mothers, you know. but you know just because somebody says no or doesn't hear it

all that means is like you have to find the other person that's close by and be like hey why don't you hear that or play for the artist in person and like 10 years late it doesn't matter how old the song is you wrote you wrote it last night you wrote it last week like they don't know it doesn't matter I have one song that we send out all the time and I did tell producers once I was like never put the date

next to the song that's the easiest way to date your music and somebody but there's this one sign I have where it has the title and that has like one zero one what is it like one zero zero eight one three and no one thinks that it was 2013 that I wrote the song because it's so fucking old and they still send it out and people really like it and we've had a couple people cut it and it's just funny because you know it's always like oh yeah we just we just wrote this song like they don't have to know Kevin how did how did your song happen um So, rumor is he does like 30 songs like in a row.

Yeah. Yeah. So the, um, the sessions are pretty wild. So I had known Artemis like a long, about in back in 2019, uh, he came over to the US after we've been talking for a few months. And we, it was like right around COVID time. He had to go back. We had a falling out and didn't speak for four years actually.

And in between that time he had, uh, if you think I'm pretty and a few other ones that were like bubbling. and so we decided to reconcile our falling out. And I saw them at the beginning of the year. We made things, you know, hung out, it felt right. And so we decided to block out like a few weeks in March. And it was pretty incredible two weeks, honestly. We had the first two songs were like so insanely good that I almost canceled the next day

because I was like there's no shot that we can match this like this level of hype. It was so good. So we ended up, you know, worked every day, obviously. And the Kiss Me was the seventh song we did. That day we had done three, and it was like right in the middle. And so the work process was it was me, Artemis, Toby Dain Tree, who produces and does all of his live stuff. And then Jesse Fink, who was co-writing.

And Toby and I would start the track. And then Artemis likes to, as soon as he kind of like something, he gets on the mic right away and just starts like spitting, just word vomits and melody vomits. And then we'll kind of go back and be like, yeah, this could be cool, this is a hook, this, this, that. And then we'll, frequently, we'll pitch the track up or down, speed it up, which is kind of like why the vocal sounds so crazy all the time. And with that one, admittedly, no one was really even that excited about it. We actually almost, like, moved on twice, decided to get the, you know, the Kiss Me section and all that. And then I think we moved, we, we, we, we, we moved, we, we,

like went past it did like two more songs and then at the end of the day we came back and we're like yeah this is actually like really good so refine the lyrics a little bit and um yeah it was like a wednesday and by tuesday of the next week it was released it was actually the craziest thing i've ever seen in my life he posted it was unbelievable i've never i still can't believe it and he posted it on ticot and it was like in my studio and he's, you know, just doing like some shit or whatever. And he's like, yeah, like, guys, I think this one could be it. And so he posted the next day.

He's like in a Tesla just like sitting there with these goofy glasses on. And yeah, like, by Tuesday the label's like, we have to release it. And then literally like two weeks later is number one in the world. It was pretty insane. It's also crazy when you think that like 15, 20% of the world in numbers have streamed that song. Do you know what I mean? When you think over a billion streams, what that actually means is not really fathomable. You know, that it's not.

It's not for, yeah. It's a crazy number. Lowell, how did it happen? Actually, I was really lucky because I got to write my biggest song to date with a bunch of my best friends and Beyonce. say. We're like a lot of us are from Canada. We've like come over to LA at the same ish time, like, just trying to make it, you know? But yeah, I think like we were talking about like how long it takes to get here, you know? And I think that song was like written pretty fast and really to keel it up, which is kind of funny to think about because I do sometimes like I am that person that's like,

let's take two weeks to do this. But I think I remind myself that it was like, it's taking me 10 years to write that song, not the short amount of time that it was. And part of that was, like, coming together with some of my closest friends and being able to be, like, vulnerable and not even have to think about it there. It was no, like, creative dating or whatever,

like, flying around L.A. kind of stuff. And then, like, Beyonce's, like, visionary self, like, hands-on, meticulous. shit. It was just like all kismet. When people sign to a publishing company, they're always like, you know, or they complain that

like maybe the publishers and putting them in in quote bigger rooms. And they're like, oh no, I want it like my A&R guy, like I want to find a manager or an A&R guy who can put me in bigger rooms. That's the dumbest shit in the world. Because 95% of the people that you know that are like, you know,

in the big that are the bigger rooms they did it with their friends that they came here from Canada with and then they became the big room and now all of a sudden it's like I mean how do I get in with her like she's you know she's nominated for a fucking like like a grammy's uh like how do I get in with her she's like I want to get in that room all the and it's like well what she just said is like is the story that that like all the successful people here really have like if you're the guy uh there's a song I have that did really well with Stargate, Benny, and Charlie X-E-X, and I promise you that no one cares that I'm on that song.

You know, like, no one gives a shit. It took other songs for me to get that I did with my crew for people to be like, fuck, yeah, that's dangerous woman or whatever. That's like, like, people like, then they were like, oh, he can do it. You know, you don't want to do it with the bigger rooms. No one's going to give a shit about you if you do it there. You're going to do it because you're doing it with your friends. And you're like, you know, so, you know, all their story is that they did it not in the bigger room.

They did it all with rekindling friendships and with the friends that they immigrated with. Yeah, that's pretty cute. Foreigners, you know. Yay, immigration. Yeah, good job. All right. So, you know, we actually don't have that much time. But, so one more question is, have you made it?

Where? I don't know. Everyone thinks that the goal is the there, there, there. You know, like, have you made it yet? Yeah, sure. I felt like I made it like ages ago. No one else thought that, but I felt great. I was like, whatever.

They were like, are you going to move to LA? I was like, no, why would I do that? I'm happy. But, um. So it's all, it's all like frosting. Yeah. I think so. Yeah.

I don't, I don't know. I don't really think about it that much. I feel like I made it. about a house. I have a house. I never used to I had like home and security like a lot of my life and now I have a house. In Los Angeles. No, in Toronto. I don't want to house. I was in Los Angeles. How often are you here?

Less than probably my team would like me to be. I don't come here very much. I'm here now. I made it. Here. I was here in March. when yeah I wrote bodyguard for Beyonce and I was like I'm out yeah do you do you do you know that you have these like songs uh when you're when you're when you're done with texas holding me like oh that's a smash are you like when you're done bodyguard are you like oh yeah I nailed it do you that kind of confidence or is it like I just finished the song no I don't um I'm I actually am always wrong. I've learned to just think the opposite. I'm like if I really like that, it's probably

a sleeper. But I would say consistently the thing, because I'm always trying to figure it out, I always had a lot of fun that day when I write a hit. Yeah. Like weird amount of fun. And I'm like not fun, so I'm like, okay, listen to that, listen to that. Yeah. And it's also the only thing you can curate, you know, and everyone thinks that they're going to, it's that same thing at the bigger room where they're like, oh, if I put all these great writers in a room that we're going to write a hit, it's like, that's not how the song is right. But if you have, if you can curate a good time, then then at least you go home and you're like, the song was shit, but I had so much fun. This is what I heard and this is what I heard and this is crazy. You can justify a shitty song.

It's really hard to, you know, justify a shitty day or night. Yeah, I feel like it's like, you know those movies where there's like too many stars in it and you know it's going to be trash yeah there's no way it's real i mean well i was going to call out some shit but i won't uh kevin uh how about uh how about you have you made it i i mean i think the answer is no only because i feel like every time i set a goal to be excited about you get there and you're like whatever like i really don't care you know it just doesn't like so do you have a do you have a do you have a bar a goal for you at this point? No, definitely not. I think I go back to kind of what Lowell was saying is like, I think all the best like memories of songs that are hits were never like the billion streams

it got. It was like the stupid joke that we had that week or like the memory of being in some cool place when we made it, you know, or whatever. It's like some cool memory along the way. So I think I've like given up my, uh, you know, my like expectations of like, yeah, now I'll be happy. I have this, you know. And it's totally out of my control, so. Yeah, I know. That's right. Lennon, have you made it?

Uh, I wouldn't say, because making it, like, real crazy to say, like, for me, because I, like, for me, I think, I think, like, my definition of it would be, like, I would say, yeah, in this, in this moment. And it was only because, like, you know how you work with. Like, I work with the same people, no matter what. Like, I don't give it down.

what the song is or who looking for records like it's gonna be me and my guys like i that's just me though so like for all of us to be like collectively nominated for the same record like that for me that for me so in that in that sense yeah because it never like happened before that it was always like separated i'm nominated or one of them nominated or something but this time is all of us at one time Have you made it? It says. If I made it? Yeah.

A lot would say, yeah. You know, it's a ton of people tell me all the time, man, you made it, you, you, you, you, go gris. That means something. Like, you know what I'm saying? But I just feel like it depends on the, the room you're trying to make it to, or, you know, your final destination. Do I feel like I've made it to my final destination? Fuck no. Wait till you I'll see my next move.

I got a lot to show you. You know what I'm saying? So I have in my mind where I know. I'm capable of getting myself and then even when I get to that point, I'm always going to think, what if I took it a step further? You know? So, no, I haven't made it. Not in my eyes. I ain't made it yet.

Well, I think, you know, obviously all four of you are very successful and have had a very successful year and life and career so far. and, you know, everybody in this room is just getting started. And I think you can't count out the people who haven't had hits yet, and you can't count the people who, you can't assume that people who currently have hits will always have hits,

and you can't assume that people who don't have hits who used to have hits, won't have hits again. It's like, it's such a process. And that feeling of making it is very fleeting. It comes and goes and comes and goes. And it's like, if you're in this room right now, I can guarantee you that you've made it, because there are

millions of people who would kill to be in a room like this. So, you know, first of all, thank you for the four of you for doing this. Thank you. Thank you, Spotify for, for sponsoring this. And Mike, you know, I got to give it to mic. You know, I said this early on, and I always end these things by having an opportunity to give sort of like a love fest to the people, because I genuinely love songwriters because they're so weird. We sell air for a living.

Literally. Like, we literally have nothing tangible to sell. And in this era, it's really nothing tangible. It's like, we sell air for a living. So who are the idiots who choose to do this for a living? And they're all in this room, you know? So, you know, that... Mike's one of the biggest ones. You know, to stay with that mind. But to learn, to learn the math and to have a mentor like Mike, you know, when he found... When he brought me into sessions, I was a guy in a band. And Aaron Bayshuck was like maybe a junior A&R guy, probably still the assistant. Shweez was an assistant.

You know, it was like this is before Miles Beard, who's, you know, head of A&R Republic. And before Jeff Vaughn, who was head of A&R. It was a president of capital. You've got all these people come through this place. because what you learn here is that valuable. And I've been in, you know, it's like I, it's, we're all, how many people here have Mike Karen on their shoulder in this session being like, ah, make it a question. No, no, no, no, no, no.

Like, you know, it's like, you can you add a cat noise at 59 seconds? Just a, wow. Yeah, yeah, like, like, what's it? Not a big cat. Not a tabby cat. A little candy goes, it goes a long way. And like, you know, it's like, you're having a conversation with the, the, the, audience and I have I have I've been in this business for so long now and I've had a lot of success

in it and part of his because I have fucking mic on my shoulder still and I know that if I text him a song he'll reply and and if he does that he does it for everybody in this room and he does it for people who are not even signed to APG like he is literally so good at making songwriters better and that's so I think that if there's anything about this event that's really cool it's the fact that I know a lot of my generation and my peers came up meeting at the old Edmonds building and doing those camps and you know man all the opportunities that we that a lot of us have gotten have happened through here so thanks Mike thanks APG congratulations and we're out this episode is produced by Joe London

management and myself. See you all next week. I'm Ross Golan signing off.