And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 202: Steph Jones

Episode Date: January 6, 2025

Today’s guest is a lyrical powerhouse who’s been shaping the sound of pop, country, indie, and electronic music with her signature style. She started her songwriting journey in church before taking a leap of faith to Nashville, where she quickly became the go-to writer for heartfelt, unforgettable lyrics. From crafting hits for the biggest names in music to lighting up every room she enters, her talent and spirit are unmatched. Hailing from the Show Me State, she’s shown us how to turn a dream into a career. With her one-of-a-kind voice (on and off the page), this songwriter proves that faith, passion, and a little bit of Missouri grit can take you anywhere.And The Writer Is…Steph Jones! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to And The Writer Is with Ross Golan. There are millions of singers, thousands of artists, and only 40 songs per genre at a time. These are the stories of the hottest creatives, the most venerable legends, artists, songwriters, executives, and more. Follow our socials and share your music with the and the Writer is community. See you all there and now. Here's this week's episode. Let me tell you about Ascap. ASCAP is America's only creator-first performing rights organization or PRO.

Their main job is to pay you royalties when songs you write are streamed broadcast on radio or TV or played live. They're great at collecting royalties. In the most recent year, they collected more than $1.7 billion for ASCAP members. So what makes ASCAP different? They're the only PRO in America that operates. rates on a not-for-profit basis. The only one that was founded by music creators and is still governed by music creators and publishers. And they're in Washington all the time advocating for songwriters' rights in the age of AI.

ASCAP represents over one million members, including this episode's guest, Steph Jones. If you are a songwriter or composer, ASCAP is where you belong. writers can join for free Learn more at askup.com forward slash why join and follow at askap on socials Chartmetric is proud to sponsor the upcoming season of and the writer is

as the go-to source for up-to-date global social streaming and audience data for artists and music industry professionals chart metric strives to ensure everyone can have a successful career in music They're easy to understand and powerful analytics on over 10 million artists and 100 million tracks will help answer all of your questions from tracking your stats to discovering new talents. Throughout this season, we'll be showcasing chart metric data to reveal insights about our featured artists.

Plans start as low as $10 a month. Learn more and get started today at chartmetric.com. Welcome to Anne the Writer is. I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's songstress has crafted hits for some of the biggest names in the pop game. This writer began her songwriting career in the church before taking a leap of faith and moving to Nashville to pursue her dreams. After finding success with various artists, this writer became known as the one to go to if you want the best lyrics. She has written pop country indie and electronic smashes. And does it so with only her unique flair. Originally from the show me state, this incredible collaborator, is an amazing human and lights up every room she is a part of. And the writer is Steph Jones.

I'm just kidding. I just scream at the top of my lungs in this. Why does everybody always do like the reserved? Like I'm going to imitate what a large crowd would be, by whispering. Yeah. It's like, fucking go.

All of a sudden. Yeah. I'm ready. Yeah. I bet people wonder if that was you doing the, or if it was me. Yeah. Maybe not.

I don't know. Okay. Hi. Hi. You're my friend. So this is cool. So I want to go to the beginning. But first, being that you have the number one song in the country as we're recording this,

I feel like we should at least acknowledge. that that, of all the people in the country, there are only three other people who share that honor. And so when you think of the 300 million plus people that are in the United States, you could text the other three people and say, hey, we are the four people who currently have that song. So that's cool.

It's amazing. It's amazing. Is it what you thought it would be? I don't know. I didn't know what I thought it would be. I think I think it's really cool. I think it's bizarre. It's really bizarre to see when your mom sends you like a video of like some random famous person, lip syncing to your song that you just were like, this is fun.

Like, yeah, it's insane. Very exciting. Yeah. It's weird. I think there's like a first aspiring songwriters. Most people have that. as a goal. Was that a goal? What?

Number one songs? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a weird goal because it is totally out of your control. You can only control what you do in the room. But was that, you know, there was a point in my head where I was like, my goal is to get a number one song. Yeah.

Literally probably about. It's a stupid goal, but kind of like not. No, I truly. It was like, I had my first, you know, country number one a couple years ago. And I think that was when I was like, I want to pop number one. like, okay, cool. Like, I don't know. This is something.

Yeah, it feels funny to say it out loud. To be like, I wrote it down, though. Ooh. Yeah. I mean, I mean, honestly, like. When? I mean, I wrote it, you know, what's crazy is when hole in the bottle was on the radio. The Kelsey Bellarine is on that we'll get to later.

I don't know we jumped into this as quick. But, I mean, I had a boyfriend who passed away pretty suddenly a few years ago. And when hole in the bottle was on the radio, I remember he was like, it's going to go. It's going to go. Number one. I'm like, it's kind of not, I don't think it's going to go. And he made me write down. Hole in the bottle will be my first of many number ones.

And then he made me sign it. And then he wrote, I second that manifestation, and he signed it. And I have his handwriting on my arm, like, I second that manifestation. And why am I emotional already? Guys, this is quick. Anyway, but yeah, like, I wrote it down. Like, and it was actually really cool because when that's, wow, this is so early to cry. Reverse podcast.

It's right on, it's right on here. It's exactly what I wrote down in the notes. Yeah, make her cry. Let's jump out the gate and get going. You know, it was really cool because there were people that were like in the, writing community that were like, this inspired me. I wrote it down now. You know what I mean? And it actually, hole in the bottle went number one two weeks after he died. So it was like, on Valentine's Day, the most insane thing. And it like, I just like shared about that because

he was such an inspiration to me and really believed in me more than like I believed in myself. You know, he would like lay in bed with me and look at the wall and be like, you know, where are you going to put your plaques? And I'm like, I don't have any. And he's like, well, you need to start thinking about it because you're going to have them. So, yeah, I would say this actually goes back to your question because this song going number one is like super like layered, you know? because it just is a lot of belief from my family and, you know, people that aren't here. So it's really cool, but it's like a very layered experience, you know. Do you have that note framed with the, with your plaques?

I don't yet, but I'm going to, I'm going to, I was thinking about it the other day. I'm like, I got to do something with that. You know what I mean? So, yeah, it will be. Okay, I'm getting it back together. I'm like, okay. You know, there's, you know, you can laugh at this or not, but there will be, there, those are the things that you find in the songwriter

Hall of Fame as they collect their things. Like you may not, it's hard. It's sometimes hard in the moment to it. Wait, does this song count as the same as, you know, like a virgin? Is this song count the same as, you know, other songs that you've, you find like lyrics of in a place like that. And the reality is, yeah. Yeah.

You know? Yeah. And there aren't, you know, there's, like I said, there are only three other people on that song. And there's a handful of people who've ever had a number one song, both at country and pop. Totally. Yeah. You know? Yeah.

And you will have, you know, it's just an amazing thing to be able to manifest something. So tangibly. Yeah. It's beautiful. Definitely. It is. And, you know, like, I, from not really being religious anymore, that was, like, probably the closest thing I've come back to doing, you know what I mean, in, like, a sort of spiritual

sort of way, you know what I mean? So, yeah, it's really cool. And it's really cool to share this song with my friends. These are all people that, like, I've known for so long. I've been working alongside and, like, really. like honor their talent and yeah it's very cool it's like kind of bizarre you know what i mean the songwriting community really means something different to different people i think when you're first getting into it it's about business and as you stick around longer you're like oh no these are

people you spend more of your time with sometimes in your own family yeah certainly your extended family oh yeah i mean you've literally gone on vacation with these guys and called at a writing Yeah, totally. You know? And so these people mean something different. And when you share it with these people, it isn't, you know, these are the people that you share your deepest, darkest secrets, not necessarily somebody who's just in a cubicle next door.

There's somebody that, you know, in that room, they've witnessed the ups and downs. Oh, yeah. The community is really, it's exactly that. Totally. It really is a community. Let's go to the beginning. You know, from Missouri. Yeah, Missouri.

Where in Missouri? Honestly, like an hour outside of St. Louis. Kind of grew up in the suburbs there. And then when I was 10, I moved with my dad to out to the country, honestly, and split my time between my dad's and my mom's house. But, yeah, I feel like that's why I can start to write country songs as I lived in a town. of 6,000 people for my whole middle school and high school career. And, I mean, we had to drive your tractor to school day. So I was like, this is crazy. Like, I was like coming from the city.

Wait, so your parents were divorced? Yes, they divorced. And yeah. How old were you when they divorced? 10. Okay. Yeah. So it was old enough that you remember the whole thing. Oh, yeah. Totally. And I'm like, all right, we got two birthdays. We got two Christmases. Was that hard or was it a plus? Were you like, oh, thank God you guys are going on. No, it was awful. Do you brothers and sisters? I have a half sister.

And that's a whole thing. I mean, literally she, you know, there's a whole long story there. But I ended up, she came around for a little while. And then we ended up reconnecting. Like 11 years later, she came into a Starbucks I was working at. And I recognized her. And it was like, this is, I think you're my sister. Starbucks has done a lot in my life.

So shout out Starbucks. Yeah, shout out Starbucks. You're going to get free for a bit. Espresso, the song's free. I'm just kidding. A lot of coffee around me. When did you, when was this? What are you working at?

I was 21 working at a Starbucks in Missouri, and I was getting ready to move to Austin, Texas. For what? I was going to work at a church there. And this was between, yeah, I was 21. So I had finished Bible. So I went to Bible school when I was 17 in Tulsa, Oklahoma. And I remember, I mean, Paul Klein was the piano player at the church I went to there from Laney. And I was like, years later, I was just like, wait, Paul, the guy from the church that, you know, it's like so fun and random.

And it was like a sister school of ORU that I went to that had the only credits that would transfer is like to OURU and it was purely Bible classes. So did that and then moved back to Missouri was interning at a church there. Yeah, it was a lot. No, no, this is fantastic, though. So you're back and forth with your parents and you're riding a tractor to school or somebody's tractor to school.

Maybe you're just watching tractors. But did you, were you listening to country music? Yeah. Or was it mostly country? I listened to a lot of country. And a lot of spiritual stuff. And a lot of, not even. Like, you know what's crazy is that my, when I started going to church when I was younger,

like neither one of my parents were going. I learned about, like, Jesus and this stuff from my grandma. And then I made my- Was she so happy because of your- Pumped. Yeah. You know, and like my first best friend at school was like, I go to a Pentecostal church where we pray in tongues.

And I'm like, my grandma does that. I love my grandma. Like, I want to go there. Did you then do a lot of tongues? Did it big time. Did it again one time when I got super high when I first moved to L.A., but I didn't know what was good. I was so high and I was like, terrified. And I literally spoke it by myself. I'm like, well, I guess it is just still running around the psyche. So is it, we always say that it's like, if you say it's still, it's actually my Wi-Fi pass, like my Wi-Fi name and password at home is the name is should about a Honda.

and the password is but I bought a Kia. Because if you say it fast, that's what it sounds like. Shoulda bought a Honda, but about a Kia. You know? Is that like a common joke? Or is that just being a step. I mean, it is wild. That is so funny.

It's like we were doing it and also making fun of other people the way they sounded. It's like, what are we doing? But so you're at this, you know, you're going to a Pentecostal church, which, you know, I didn't, and when I moved to L.A., this is your story. Not mine. And my roommate said, do you believe in God? And I was like, I, I mean, I thought every, I kind of thought everybody did. Yeah.

Not like, I didn't grow up in like a really religious area. I just didn't grow up on a coast. And I didn't grow, I didn't grow up in a place. It was, it was pretty homogenized in its thought. And I just never even questioned it. And that was the first time I'd ever even heard the question. And I was, you know, I was a pretty smart kid. I just had never even thought of the question before.

Yeah. You know, it's like it's interesting to grow up in a household where your parents don't believe it or aren't that religious. And you're like, you know what, though? I believe it. So would you go home and sort of proselytize to your parents? Oh, I mean, yeah. When my parents got divorced too, my dad started going back to church.

And so that was like a whole. The same church? A different, like a Pentecostal church, like kind of out. in the country we went, which is hilarious. But, I mean, yeah, I mean. There snakes and stuff in your... No, we didn't go. It didn't go that far.

But it was a lot of... You stopped that, Anamonapia. Yeah, totally. I tie my bow tie, you tie your bow tie. It was the other one we would do. Anyway, but I mean, the church that I was at, like, after Bible school, I mean, it's the reason why I learned how to run live sound, play in a band. I learned how to write songs that way because there was a church that I went to in St. Louis

that there would be, they would have a thing called the prayer room. And for like six or eight hours a day, there will be live music in the sanctuary. And anybody could come and go. And you could just be in, like, quote, the presence of God, right? So you could just come and be in the room while live music is happening and doing this whole thing. And I would be in charge of a two-hour set by my, either me on piano or me with a band. And there would be a section of time, every time, that somebody would come up and pray on the microphone. And then I would have to, if I was leading the banner, if it was my set, I would have to sing a chorus that summed up what they just prayed.

I've got a floor wedge. I'm playing piano. half somewhere else, you know, I've been playing. I'm like, wait, what was it? What was it? Like, bring revival to America. Like, send revival to America. Like, you just have to, like, make up a chorus so that everyone could be in what they

would call agreement together so that we could sing it back. And honestly, it was the greatest tool for me. Like, I then started, like, I would record the, like, live board mixes. and I would get a in real time feedback of like this is a good chorus because it would catch on and you can feel it in the room. People are singing along. They get it. It's quick.

And I would go back and I would be like, there was something I did it like this time. And I would go back and I'd be like, that's my chorus. And then I would write a song around it. And we would sing it like on Sunday at church. Who's teaching you how to do that? Or that's just instinctual at that point? It was just instinctual. I mean, the first time I ever did one of those sets,

no one came up to pray. And I remember being like, I had all of my songs laid out because I'm like, two hours is a long time to like be vibing like by yourself. And I'm not a great piano player. So it was really, really bad. And but I remember one of my first times doing it, I ran out of songs.

And I was like, what am I? Do I just go back and play? one of the other ones. And I just opened my Bible to Psalms because I knew that those were set up like songs. And I just started singing ones that I knew because I had no idea. And somebody would be like, I love that Psalm 32 song you did. I'm like, I have no idea what that was. Do you still have, can you still recite most of the Bible? Like, is it once it's in there? Is it so drilled in at this point that you could probably? I probably know a lot of it. Yeah. I mean, last night I was like talking to a friend. I'm like, I still remember, I did Bible quizzing, so I remember all of the, the Old Testament

in order somehow. I still, yeah, I probably definitely, I still, there's pieces of that part of. I'm sorry, what's Bible quizzing? Yeah, where they just do quizzing on like, in the book of Job. Who did? Yeah, you know. And I remember the hardest question. Was it like you win, like cookies or you win like, or is it like you win like a, I don't

think you won anything. I think it was just like, yeah. You just looked cool to other religious people. It was like amazing. You know, there's a way to keep us from going out drinking. Did you go to, did you ever go to a, to somebody else's set and been frustrated with how bad their improvisational skills are? Or were you ever, or there's specific people who are, man, if I could be like that preacher or whatever you call that character? What do you call?

Yeah. You know, what were the experiences watching other people do the same things? It was honestly amazing. I mean, sometimes I was like, damn, this is tough out here. Or gee whiz, this is tough out here. You know what I mean? But it was based off of a church that we had gone to in Kansas City called IHOP, which is International House of Prayer for them, which is a whole other thing.

But they for profit. Is it the same logo? They should have. I mean, honestly. It's a missed opportunity. The McDowell's of... The McDowels of churches. It probably so exists.

It does. And they did 24-7 prayer and worship. You could go into that building any time of day. Like sometimes we would go stay there for a weekend. And if you wanted to, you could get up and go to the 3 a.m. session, the 5 a.m. session, the 7 a.m. session. And they literally would vacuum around them. Like, nothing ever stopped. The way that they would change out bands.

it was like very uniform. I was like one person at a time until you get to the person who's leading. And they did full band most of the time. But I would watch the way that they could turn things into choruses so fast. And I was like, some of them were so catchy. I mean, I still remember some of them.

A lot of them turned into songs on albums, you know? And when I moved to Austin, Texas, I then was started working at a church, well, not working. Everything was for free. So it's kind of like the music industry. There's a lot of parallels for me. Jesus is the artist? Yeah, totally.

Yeah, you're just like forever an intern. The church is the record label. Yeah. I got it. Totally. The guys make more money. I'm just kidding. Just kidding.

Am I? But it is, you know, I always say that that pastor, And I went from a small, arguably more sort of culty church, honestly. Like, I don't mean to be, you know, rude. But from a church in Missouri that was super specific than going out to Austin, Texas, to a megachurch. It's thousands of people. And then I was on a stage that's like there's smoke machine. Were you recruited?

Did you audition? No, I mean, kind of. My friends had moved there and were on staff as youth pastors. And I was like, I got to get out of St. Louis. I don't know. I just want to, I need to go do something else. I want to be in the megachurch. Yeah, take me to Texas, baby.

So they were like, you should just come live with us for a while. And I did that. Packed up my car. I went to Austin. And I always say that that pastor was my first A&R because I started helping them write songs there. And that pastor would basically, if we were introducing a new song, we would sing it for three Sundays in a row.

And every Sunday he would look around. And if by the third Sunday people weren't singing along, like pretty much like flawless. We couldn't do it anymore. So I'm like, so this has to work. Like, these people have to hear this song one time and then a break for a week. There's no way to replay this. Next Sunday, hear it again.

Next Sunday, hear it again, and it has to stick. Or we can't do it. It's like writing a musical or whatever it is. That's amazing. Like, it was the greatest training of all time. Are there any songs that you wrote then that are still being played? Probably. Definitely. I mean, not like, probably a niche in a niche way, I would guess. But yeah, I mean, when I moved from Austin, I remember I just took everything, all my Christian music off of Spotify and stuff. I was like, I'm good. So I don't really know. Maybe, maybe not. So, you know, you do this experience.

You're kind of on your own. Your parents are not together. You're just an independent human making choices at a young age. Yeah. My parents were so sick, though, because they were, like, amazing. They were just, like, cool. Yeah. Like, I've been supported every step of the way for anything I've ever been like, yeah, I'm going to do this.

Were they ever like, hey, you should write country music, or you should write? Or was it sort of not really? Probably my dad. My dad growing up, my dad was a musician and he like had a band. What is he play? Guitar and he was the lead singer of a band. And so, I mean, when I was growing up, my dad would play me old albums like Bruce Hornsby and all this stuff.

And I remember sometimes he would be like. Former guests on this podcast. Yeah. Oh, my king. My dad would be like, what do you think the single was on this album? I'm like, what's a single? So he was your A&R too? He was ready to go.

I've been Aonard my whole life. It's like, it's a Truman show of childhoods. You go to Austin. The move to Nashville happens when? Right after Austin, yeah. I had a friend that I went to Bible school with named Lacey Brown that was on American Idol. And it was, I remember it was like the year of like Crystal Bauer Sox. Like Lee DeWi, maybe it was, it was like a very, I remember it being, again, a time of American Idol that if you were on the top 10, you like played on

David Letterman or something. Yeah. Lead to Wives was sort of like, the, offensively, if you're out there, I also know you're an Illinois kid, but like, you know, sort of like the beginning of like them not having the same impact as the seven years

before that. Sure. Sure. And I, yeah. And I mean, my, you know, Bible school friend is on there and she's like, you got to come to Nashville. And I was like, okay, I had been there one other time because when I worked at Starbucks, and I worked at Starbucks in all these states too, by the way. So I worked for

Starbucks for eight years. Like St. Louis, moved to Austin, worked there in Nashville. Are you a good barista still? Yeah. Honestly, I make a pretty good coffee. But like I have like an espresso machine. I'm good with like those kind of drinks, you know. How many milligrams is in a shot of espresso? I actually don't know. I'm more about the art of it. Okay. I don't really know the facts. Are you good at, are you good at, are you good at designs? I can do a design. I also just really like flavor profiles.

Like I'm doing a soda coffee. What is that? Tonic water and espresso with a couple drops of orange essential oil. And I do like an orange coffee soda. And you do that and you obviously chill it. Yeah. And I love that. But yeah, Starbucks everywhere.

So you're in Starbucks for eight years. That's good health care. Incredible. Literally the best. I mean, I, I, I had, you know. You were back in Missouri when your half sister showed up. Yeah, and she's amazing.

I'm so happy that that happened. Starbucks really brought us back together. And when I worked... Are you guys close now? Yeah. Oh, cool. Yeah, she's awesome. And the Starbucks that I worked at in St. Louis, too, my friend was like, hey, the first time I'd been to Nashville

was because she said, I know you like doing music stuff. Like, my sister does something in music in Nashville. We should go visit her. And we went and stayed with her. Her name's Sarah Johnson. Well, Sarah Canaby now, and she's at Big Loud now. And she was, like, the first person I met in the music industry, and she was like, I played her music.

She's like, I'm going to be honest with you, though. Okay. Like, I'm like, okay. I was, like, so scared to play stuff. And she was like, you should meet my friend Beth, who's Beth Laird. And so, you know, I was with BMI for a long time because of that. and again from Starbuck. So, so then, you know, when I'm in Austin and my friend's like, let's go to Nashville, I was like, man, I really liked Nashville. And so I moved. I was just like,

honestly, I was in Austin for a year and a half and did my thing there. And then was just like, yeah, I'm down to go to Nashville. I think that's where you go to write songs. Because what had happened was she was telling me she moved to Nashville. And at the same time, out of nowhere, the only song I'd ever co-written that wasn't Christian ended up being on that show The Hills. Oh yeah, sure, of course. So, sorry, my story has so many random pieces that I'm trying to like, it's literally so bizarre.

I feel exhausted at 36 years ago. No, I feel like I've pulled you away from, like your train of thought is very clear. Okay, right, no, because I'm ADHD. That's true, unmedicated. Try and true. Okay, wait, real quick, when, you, You're writing songs that are secular, do you feel guilty?

Now? No, that. That's another question. Yeah, I'm like, ooh. No, I always thought it was very cool. I was like, ooh, we're writing like, I mean, the song was called butterflies. It's like, it's not, it wasn't like, pop my ass like this. Like, it wasn't like, you know what I mean?

It wasn't like disgusting or really sexy or, like, foul. So I felt great about it. It was more like Colby Calais coded. And yeah, and the girl that I wrote it with her, like one of her family members is like she is related to Justin Timberlake somehow. And like his mom or somebody sent it to someone at him. She'd be like, it's like this the most random things of all time. This, my entire thing is the most random thing. What years is that?

years are not good for me What era was that? I mean if you're talking about like Lee to Wise and going to Nashville after Austin I was just like 2009

that has to be like nine yeah somewhere in there that has to be right around there right yeah so you show up you're part of BMI you're starting actually part of the network

did you move there quickly at that point I moved there after like two months after I went and visited one more time just to make sure And when I got back, my friend's like, you're moving, aren't you?

Like, yeah. So I was just, I was out. And you worked at Starbucks while you were there, right? Yeah, and I would always go to the city I was going to live in, and I would go find the store that I felt was run well. Oh, interesting. And I would go in because I'd worked for the company for so long. I was kind of a shoe in, honestly.

So I was like, I want to go to a good store. And this one that I went to in Nashville was, they called it at the time the Music Row Starbucks. So it was really, it was like a couple of. Was it competitive to work there? Yeah, because it was no drive-thru, which is fire. I love no drive-thru, possessed by no drive-thru. And then you have like a personal interaction with people who show up.

Yeah, I mean, and you had people, I had a lot of Vanderbilt students, and then like a lot of, I called them my clients. And then a lot of them from Music Row that were about to write that morning. It was songwriters. It was publishers. It was, that was the store. There was no, it was, Nashville was a different town than it is today. How often do you go to that Starbucks? Probably once a month. Do they know who you are?

No, imagine. I'm like, do you guys? Like, it's like Jennifer Lopez on that video where she's like, I used to live here. You know, that one? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that video. Yeah, that's so much. It's chef kiss.

It's so different in there. Honestly, I feel so old when I go in there because now they can wear whatever they want and they have online ordering. I'm like, I would never survive. Like, but they would have never survived. I couldn't show my tattoos. I had to wear, like, I always had to wear, like, black or, like, you know, like, collars. And, but I do go in there.

And when I lived in L.A., I would, every trip I went to Nashville, I would always go to that store, at least once. Just to, like, man, okay, cool. Yeah, I, like, was here. Like, Starbucks was a huge part of my life and personality. The story of the Frappuccino is pretty famous, but I feel like, That's an anecdote that we should say. Wait, the story of the... Of who created the Frappuccino.

Do you know this? No, tell me. Kenny G. Kenny G. This feels like some folklore that, like, you could be lying and I would be like, wow, I believe this. He's one of the original investors. He's from Seattle.

And he's one of the original, like, six to eight investors or something like this. I'm going to get this wrong. Somebody's going to call me out on it. But that's fine. But it's something like that. And there was a blended coffee. drink at a local coffee shop that he would go to. The story is, at least the rumor is that he had something to do with bringing that idea to Starbucks, but that the Frappuccino is somehow

related to Kenny G. So I hope that that makes you happy. I love that. You're in Nashville for a while. Yeah, two years. You know, most of the, seems like you were doing a lot of writing. You were doing a lot of working, but it wasn't necessarily getting you, like, major label cuts yet. Oh, no. No. I was going out to bars and hanging out and just, like, meeting people. And I remember, you know, like, some of my earliest people that I met in Nashville

were, like, Casey Musgraves and Marin Morris. Like, my friend Scott that worked with me at Starbucks was Casey's drummer for a long time. And this was super early on. Like, this is when Casey was still, like, singing in writers' rounds. Do you know Adam Mollendorf? Yes. What a sweetie. Adam taught me how to play guitar because we grew up on the same street in Deerfield, Illinois.

I love that. And then he played with Casey. Yeah, he did. And it was just like, that's, yeah. What a cool guy. I mean, I talked to him all the time. Yeah, he's the best. Nice people.

The best. I mean, I would just meet people out. Like, you know, I met the first, like, artist cut, like, that I really had in pop was I had met out one of these nights out. I think we were at losers or something is when I met fancy. good. He like asked to use my lip gloss. And I was like, and I was like, I love this man. And we started writing me and him and Jesse Frazier wrote his, you know, first single as a solo artist called Goodbye. And that, you know, that was like a, that was my first song on the radio. But kind of

when that happened, I mean, I was still working at Starbucks before that song came out. I was working at Starbucks. And I would, I mean, which part do I tell here? Basically, my little town in Missouri that I grew up in, one of my friends from there, Lindsay, her older sister is married to Mike Daly at Hollywood Records. And she was like, played, like sent him some terrible song of me singing piano on my Facebook or something. Like, and then he calls me, he's like, what do you want to do? I'm like, I think I just want to write songs. Like, um, and at the same time, I met my other publisher, Greg Gallo at Starbucks. Because his wife, Carrie would come in every day, just sit at the end of my bar and she would,

she was like, what else do you do? I was like, well, that's rude. I love coffee. She's like, no, like, what else? What's happening here? You know, I'm like, I'm trying to write songs. She's like, I'm a publisher. You should, like, you should come by and play me some stuff.

I'm like, okay. So I did. And she's like, this is a little too pop for me, but you should meet my husband Greg. He comes into the store. I'm like, a guy that gets the venty zen green tea. Like I still this day, I'm like, I remember people's drinks. And I wouldn't play stuff for him. Did you bring him a venty green?

I probably did. Honestly, I probably did. Yeah, that'll get you a publishing deal for sure. I'm like, please. And, you know, then I met Mike Daly. and he was working at the time on a album for Lucy Hale, who's an actress. And she did a country album. And she and I ended up meeting and just totally hitting it off.

And long story short there, I ended up taking a hiatus. And I was her, I was a personal assistant for her for a few months on the road during her radio tour. So I got. So you experienced that time. So I experienced being with an artist, seeing what they go through. I'm like the good morning America call time makes me sick to my stomach. Like, God bless everyone who does that. If you're a songwriter or composer, you have to join a performing rights organization or PRO.

Performance royalties are an essential part of your income, if not your only income. ASCAP is America's first PRO and the only one that operates on a not-for-profit basis, which means the money they collect goes to their songwriters, composers, and music publishers. And ASCAP supports you in a lot of different ways, even beyond the royalties. They run workshops and networking events for creators, like the annual ASCAP Experience. Check it out at ASCAPexperience.com. They got tons of resources on their website to help you learn about the music industry. They've even got a wellness program.

I really respect that ASCAP is a true democracy. AsCAP members elect their board of director. and the board is made up of music, writers, and publishers. They've got over one million writers, including this episode's guest, Steph Jones. Writers can join for free. Learn more at ASCAP.com forward slash why join and follow at ASCAP on social. Our good friends at ChartMetric have all the data you need to power your music career, From playlist placements to stream counts to follower demographics and many more.

It's never been easier to understand how your artists fit in the music industry and how they can grow. Chart metric does the work for you, providing actionable insights and visuals on their up-to-date global data that covers over 10 million artists and 100 million songs. So there's no math required. Use it to find out things about your favorite artists and any of the artists and writers on this podcast. Plans start as low as $10 a month. Learn more and get started today at chartmetric.com. Yeah, the anxiety I would have when I only did a few morning shows, but performing at 7 a.m. On the East Coast time, like your voice has to be solid.

and you were supposed to pretend like you got some sleep. And it's just, I don't know how those guys aren't constantly having anxiety attacks. I have no idea. I have no idea. You know, saw I'm out on the road with her. And while that's going on, fancy's like, you know, going to be putting out music. And I think eventually Mike and Greg were like, why don't we try to sign her together and do a joint venture. And Greg was at.

Big deal. At big deal. Mm-hmm. Right. So that was my first deal was. A joint venture. Yeah. Two deals with them, yeah.

Right. Which is just the most random thing. When you got the publishing deal, did you quit Starbucks? I did. I quit when I worked with Lucy. I was like, I can't. But you never went back after that. Never went back.

I mean, I was terrified. I'm like, this insurance is so sick. I mean, we still don't have insurance as a, as a writer. So it's like, you know. I'm like, should I go do? Like, it's like you did like 30 hours a week on average to get full like benefits. It's sort of like when Evan Bogar had the number one song for SOS, but he still was a booking agent. Yeah.

And he still worked at that. So you could be like this person with the number one song who's working in Starbucks. I mean. When you go into Starbucks, what's your order? And this is the last question about Starbucks. I don't know why they're getting so much attention. I know it's just like, sponsor me. I don't know.

Like I don't know what you would sponsor me for. But it's like, I mean, I still get it all the time. I do a shake and espresso when no class. classic one stevia cinnamon powder and um coconut milk that's that's the drink you're just always my favorite person no matter what your answer is um it always just works out for me like internally it just everything's a smile on the inside okay so you go um you moved to l.A though for a bit like when i think when i met you you were in l.A so when did you move to l.A. Yeah I moved to l.A. And why did you move to l.A when you're you know you seem to have traction and

friends and everything in Nashville. Yeah. What's a point in moving in L.A.? Great question. I never thought I was going to live in L.A. I just thought like, yeah, I've done it. I'm in Nashville. This is what you do.

I never even realized. I never even really thought about L.A. But when Fancy's song did pretty well, it was like a top 20, you know, on radio. And when that happened, I think that my team and everybody, it's like, well, I am a little pop for Nashville right now. And, but I really learned a lot in Nashville about how to write a country song and how to write lyrics and how to turn lyrics and like that kind of a thing. I really learned so much there in the years I lived there.

But yeah, it kind of got to a point where I was just like, well, I might as well try it because I'm getting pop traction and young enough that I would be, it'd be silly for me to not try. And so I think, yeah, I was like 27 or something when I moved. What years that? Sorry I did do that. The years are bad for me. I mean, I'm 36, so. Okay, so there you go. I was 26.

I was 25 or 26 when I moved to L.A. And I was here for like, yeah, nine years, eight years. The even coming here, it still is a minute until you start getting sort of where the cuts become kind of consistent. Totally. And also everyone always thought. when I first started coming to L.A., there is a beautiful man named Steph Jones that used to be very active in the writing community, was signed like ludicrous or something. And I remember the first time I wrote with J. Mike, he looked at me so weird when I got to

this session and I was like, what's going on? And like, about an hour in, he just turns around. He's like, I got to tell you something. Like, I straight up thought you were going to be a black man. And I was like, I'm like, well, Sorry, I'm not. And it had, people had to clarify for a while that I wasn't him, like doing and like starting to write again. What did they call you? Did you have like a nickname? No, it just was like, not that.

That's why my, I was my BMI name was like, not that Steph Jones or something. That's really funny. Because I was like, everyone always, even now if you look it up, both of our, our picture. He has a Wikipedia. I do not. So it's like. Are you mad at that? No, I love it.

I think it's incredible. This is just perfect. He's like popped up in my life randomly throughout. Do you know who Rosie Golan is? Yes. Yeah, also Nashville shout out Rosie. But like it's the same thing where it's ROSI, GOLA. Yes.

And people be like, hey, you sent me a song the other day. You know, I think it might be good for this thing. I'm like, I don't think that's me, man. I know. Yeah, it didn't really sound like you. It's so funny. The odds are just really small that there's. one other Golan that I know of in the music business and she has, anyway.

It's perfect. No, the first time I worked with Sean Mendez, he was like, I know a guy named Seth Jones. I'm like, God damn it. This man is everywhere. I love that. Have you guys met? Have you guys hung up? No. We have taught. You guys should go have coffee. I'm not going to say where. I'm not going to say where. Starbacks. Yeah. Are you still a believer at this point? I believe in a lot of things. Or are you still religious at the point that you move to L.A.? No. When did that switch?

A couple years into Nashville. Sorry, what were you saying? Of all the places to become less religious, why in Nashville? I was just at a church there that was really nice. And I still am like, to this day, there is a worship leader from there named Chris McClarnie that has one of the greatest voices. And a girl named Jesse Parker, now she's Jesse Early. And I actually heard her, like one of her songs on an Instagram real recently, like did, like popped off some really incredible people from these places that I still am like, these are golden humans and like, you know, but I think I just got to a point where I was like, I don't, this isn't really aligning with me. I'm the type of person that like I put my head down and I just do what's in front of me for a super long time and I forget to check in and be like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. my, do I agree with what's happening?

Yeah. Was there some, it's sort of that person who said, do you believe in God? And it was like, wait, what? Yeah, totally. Yeah. I'm like, this is my life now. And then I'm like, wait. Who said that?

Who or what made you just raise, you know, think of it differently? I think it was like years of unwinding for me, you know, because there was a lot of really crazy stuff that went down on some of the churches I went to that were very bizarre. And I slowly was like, oh, like these people. definitely aren't perfect. There's people in leadership abusing their role as a leader. I think slowly and Shirley just became really disillusioned by it feeling like I'm like most things you see behind the veil. Like I was too close. I don't, I think it's really just the part that didn't do it for me anymore was the just the like organized religion part of it.

and the like there being you know politics and things like that that i just thought this is a part i can leave behind like i still like pray in my own ways and i have no problems with um any of that honestly and there are still like what does that mean in your own ways um well i still apply a lot of a lot of my religious training and learning in my songwriting um i think that you know, like I used to before I would go into sessions, there's like a prayer, the prayer, the Lord's prayer says, give us this day our daily bread. And that is one of the things that I was just, I always think about because when I think about daily bread, I would just be like, before I would go into a session, I would just kind of sit in my car and be like, yeah, give us this day our daily

bread. Like I don't want yesterday's bread. That's stale. And I don't want tomorrow's bread. It's not ready yet. Like I want what's for today. And so just even like energetically, whatever you want to call that. I thought, you know, I want what's meant for today in this room at this time with this person, in this session, with this song. And so I apply a lot of that. And even the way that I typically write, I don't really come prepared. I work very well catching things. Just that's my like shooting from the hip sort of thing.

I have. Also, I mean, that's what you, you know, we still draw from who we were when, when I was 14, I took forever writing songs. I still take forever writing songs. And you were, you're singing at a church where you have to come up with a chorus in the moment. Yeah. So you still write a chorus in the moment. And I still, yeah, there's some sort of energetic antenna that is up for me at all times.

Like, not to be woo-woo, but like, you know, I mean, I was with an artist and with a producer the other day. and we were getting ideas started for an artist. And he was playing these things. And two different times, and this is not like about me. Like, oh, but just like this is how it kind of works for me sometimes.

I started singing a reference. I sang some like other song. You know how we do. We kind of like riff and like, oh, like sing a melody or something over it. And he was like, whoa,

we've been referencing that actually. That's so cool. And then we went on. And then I'm like, I sang like a whole other like, early 2000 song that I just popped into my head and he was like dude we've been reference we just referenced that like two days ago like this is weird you know and so sometimes there's just like the thing that always has drawn me to music and to creating is like there's

some otherness about it this artist about this voice about this song the thing that you can't put your finger on is the thing that I want to tap into. You know what I mean? Does that make sense? Sure. Is it hard to, is it hard to sort of define your own,

your own religion the way that you have in a way? No, I think L.A. was great for that for me. Because here it's kind of like, yeah, crystals, cool. Like incense, love it. Whatever. Like, tarot cards, perfect, you know? And I was able to sample the buffet of belief and spiritualism and things here. When Nashville, I remember I first started, yoga was like actually one of the first things that was like, whoa, connected.

I felt this is very cool and feel spiritual. And I remember people from the churches that I had gone to had seen on social media that I had posted something about me going to yoga. and I got so many messages of like, you should be really careful. That's, you know, like, you're in agreement with, like, demonic. Like, it was bizarre, you know what I mean? So, but I, and I lost a lot of relationships when I left those kind of worlds because I was no longer, you know, really, like, I was saying fuck and stuff.

And I would say it anyway, but I was just so, like, quiet about it. listen, like, I've always had a filthy mouth. That was like, my mother is the most amazing person, and she talks like a sailor, and it's the most iconic thing in the world. So it's in me, you know what I mean? But, yeah. Going to some music stuff, you know,

the first time I think I hear about you is right around 2017-2018, because I was spending a lot of time with Sabrina. and you were writing songs with her that, you know, with the same friends that I was writing with, just like, you know, the way topliners work, you were in one day, then I'd go in the next. And there's this, you know, maybe there's five writers that were in that project that just kind of floated around. But it's rare that you work with other topliners. Yeah. So it was like, it was really exciting to see, you know, you start rooting for projects.

with other people and you start seeing those things. I don't want to skip too far ahead, but there's a relationship that you created with Sabrina at that point that a lot of her co-writers, her current co-writers, were their co-writers in 2016, 17, 18. Sure. What was the relationship that you had with her at that point

that allowed you to grow with her? I don't know. I mean, I think that I just liked to listen to her. She is one of the most, like, intelligent, like, wise. Like, I just remember being like this person. Like, you know, she is wise beyond her years. And, I mean, yeah, met her when she was, yeah, 16, I think. And I just always, I don't know.

I was rooting for her even when I wasn't in the room with her, you know. I've always just really believed in her beyond. And, like, I mean, it was at the time where she wasn't driving. And, like, you know, I'd like take her, you know, I'd like take her home or, you know, and so we get extra time together, like, debriefing and, like, hanging. And, you know, yeah, and that was a really special time. And she was, you know, getting her own voice and her own perspective and, you know, training to make the music that she even makes now.

So, yeah. You were working so long in music and had some significant cuts and some that were, you know, continued to show hope, the fancy song, Sue Me Fur and Sabrina. These songs that were like doing well for where they were. You start getting the real traction, though, in a weird sort of way, only a few years ago. And by real traction, I mean, you know, work. you start seeing the commercial success. Yeah.

You know, at what point do you think you moved from, you know, the aspiring phase to, oh, wait, maybe I'm, maybe I am the community. Do you know what I mean? There's sort of like the, I'm on the outskirts and I'm playing in the playing sometimes. And then there's the, oh, wait a man, I'm getting the calls to work with, you know, Selena Gomez and I'm getting like the Celine Dion song and you're getting like these names you're like, oh, this is clearly at the time a level up, not to say that, you know, if you knew then what we know now, like Sabrina was, was unbelievably talented, but she didn't

have the commercial success she has this week, you know, at the time. But then all of a sudden you started working with some of the names that had the commercial success. What were the moments where you started realizing, oh, I'm actually, maybe I've made it. Are you there yet? I don't think so. I was like, when was that moment? I like, I like very much identify with being an underdog, which is something that like my friends have been like, yeah, you can't be that anymore. Too bad. I'm in the middle of aligning with the new story in my head. Like, we all have a story about ourselves that plays all the time that we talk to. It's the same checking in. that you have to do that you same before.

Yeah, and that's, you know, like, I, that is, I'm in the middle of that right now. You know, like, I started realizing, you know, when, you know, Jesse Frazier, I had met Kelsey ballerini at, like, a party, and she was like, do you want to come on my bus and write? I'm like, okay. Like, a lot of just, like, no idea how this had happened. And then Jesse Frazier was like, do you want to come to the beach and write with us with Kelsey? So kindly invited me with him. and Ashley Goreley and Hila Lindsay,

and I remember being there being like, what the hell am I doing here? You know what I mean? Like, and that's when we wrote hole in the bottle. And, you know, things like that were, you know, when I went in the room with John Kay, I was cutting a song with him that I was like a different song when we wrote if we never met.

Joey Arbji had like brought me in on that project and I was cutting another song and I could tell while we were cutting it. I'm like, you don't like this song, do you? And he's like, oh, I don't, I, and he's such a sweet guy. Like, you know, he's just so, amazing voice. Like, amazing voice, like a king. And I'm just like, nah, dude, I can like tell.

And it's like a Saturday and we're in Santa Monica. So I'm just like, bro, like, we should just like go. Like, I don't want to do this. Like, let's just get a verse chorus. And he's like, oh, well, Joey said you could stay and write with me today. I'm like, oh, well, then fuck this song. Like, let's just write a new song. Because like, this, I don't believe you singing this thing.

And I remember looking at he had a ring on and I was like, oh, you're married. And I don't write with a lot of pop artists that are married. I feel like that's more common in the country world. And I said, do you have a song for your wife? And he's like, I don't. I said, well, you're a fucking idiot. I'm just kidding. But I was like, well, you should.

I'm like, you know. And I had this title in my phone called If We Never Met. And I said, how did you guys meet? And he was like, it was totally random. Like, I was singing at a wedding and she was a bridesmaid. And so we just told his story in that song. And, you know, like, I have found over and over again that, like, the truth sometimes just cuts through.

Like, that's sometimes, like, you know, I'm like in espresso, I'm working late because I'm a singer. It was late. it was like 2 a.m. She's a singer. Sort of the opposite. Like it's the truth. It's the truest thing on the planet.

Most of the A&R people in that list of things you're not supposed to say. It's things that other people can't relate to. Yeah. And those are the things that you're gravitating to. Yeah. I'm like, yeah.

Does that make you fearless? I think I just have to write what's in the room. It's like, what's here? I don't know. Like, because... Are you trying to write hits? No, I don't know. I mean, probably.

I want to write something that is good. I want us to leave the room and be like, we like this. But I don't... Like, the hit to me is like a forever moving target. There's always something just like that you can't put your finger on. I don't know. And like, I can't chase that. If I can't see it, I can't chase it.

I feel like I've never been like, I have to write a hit today. I don't know what that means. No, I mean, what... You know, somebody who can write a hit. a chorus on the fly, like, good on you. That's, that's amazing. But one of the things is my favorite things about you is how clever your songs are. And they, and, you know, when something like nonsense does what it does, it's really frustrating. It's really frustrating because you're like, this is so smart. And it's smart. And you guys, you just hear the fun. You might hear you guys

literally on the recording having that fun at the end and all this stuff. Like literally laughing. Like literally laughing. You know, and it's like, and it's also the most Sabrina thing to do that kind of lyric. Yeah. But it's just like the funniness and the progression of each line just being like, are you kidding? Like, are you really allowed to do this? And the answer is, of course, yes.

Yeah. But you kind of have to be brave to do that. You know, we were saying when you first got here because you're with an artist for a few days and how extraordinary that is in this era because everyone's always just giving you. you one day and you kind of still you you know if I have one day with someone I'm going to swing for the fences if I don't if I don't hit it right then that's fine but like I don't you don't necessarily have the the grace to dive in to try to make every line funny yeah you might not have the time to go and really edit your way through yeah and and here you are like you know it just seems like you're you're either so incredibly efficient.

or you're spending a lot of time or whatever it is. But it sounds like nonsense. Kind of just, they kind of wreck me. It's like that thing. It's like I love it. You know, because it's exciting to be.

Yeah. I mean, and Julian is the king. You know, you know, like I love, I love working with Julian Benetta. And, you know,

the, what I've done, you know, with Julian and with Sabrina together and Julian with other artists. Like, you know, he really pushes too. And like,

you know, so he honestly is a big part of a lot of, of these songs too, you know, and he's a great songwriter, not just a producer. And, um, yeah, like the dynamic that you can have with people is just, that's super important, you know, it's like, and when we wrote nonsense, we were in Nashville, you know, and Julian had the idea to, like, you know, pedal steel or something with 808. So I'm like, I haven't heard that. That's cool. Like, we're in Nashville. Like, what's here? You know what I mean? Um, and Sabrina's just obviously

incredible tongue and cheek, amazing lyrics. Her personality is, just all of that, you know, and... But it's still no matter what, it's like, it really just takes somebody who's encouraging in the room to be like, no, you're allowed to do this. Yeah. Because I feel like, you know, I feel like I have somebody on my shoulder,

five people on my shoulder being like, that's not a hit lyric. That's going to be a, that's the lyric that lands you on the album. But what it turns out in this era is that your fans will end up gravitating to the song that's all clever and as honest and as detailed. then, you know, then that artist becomes known for that, then everyone hopes that because, you know, that's how you write. Yeah, I mean, it is how, I mean, yeah, definitely how I write.

And I really like, I really like helping people find what is identifiable. I'm sorry, identifiable about them. That is what I really love doing, yeah, is just finding what makes this person special. Like their voice, their perspective, the, you know, know, like, what is it that can be, what is it that you can do that other people can't do or that you are the best at, you know, that I feel like is really important, you know. And even when I write with, like, my friends, Maddie Diaz, who's amazing, you know, singer, songwriter, folk, I mean, I don't know what you consider that. It's amazing. She's so talented. Like, each person is a

completely different target for me, you know, and I'm coming into their world. And I, I, I, I, in the service industry. Like, I am like, how can I help? Each room I go into, I'm like, where do I fit here? Who is in charge? That's a big question. Like, sometimes it's not the artist. Sometimes they're burnt that day and don't have anything left and someone else has to steer. Or, you know, sometimes you're with a band and it's actually the bass player that is like, oh, you're like, You have to read undercurrents and be like, oh, my God. Like, everyone's looking to the bass player. I've been looking at, you know, who's in charge here?

Like, is a big question in a room, I think. It's like an REM thing. It's not Michael Stipe who writes most of the songs. Yeah. How is that possible? Totally. But you have to know the band to know that. Yeah.

Why aren't you an artist? I mean, you're an artist as a human, but why aren't you? you releasing albums? Oh, I have no desire to tour. I have, I feel like I've always had like an odd relationship with my voice. I remember when I was super young singing in church, there was like a pastor was like, when are you going to work on your vibrato? Because I have a super fast vibrato. And now I'm like, I love it. But I love singing. I love doing background vocals. But I would never in a million years be able to go like, this is my sound and I would die for this. Like I just, it's boring to me. Like I, like, when I've signed my first deal, I have always said, I want my catalog to look

freaky as hell. And I'm like, I want to be like, I want you to look at it and be like, I don't know what she does. Like that feels fun to me. I don't feel energized by sitting with myself and being like, what is it the like, this is my sound, this is the thing. And like, I have to focus on only this for right now would feel not good for me. What you do is a dying art. And this is one of the parts that's really difficult if we're really looking at our industry where most people who are songwriters are encouraged to also pursue being an artist of some sort. And especially when you're younger. There are very few people who specialize in the service of others. to become the artist they should be.

I don't know if you recognize how unique your position is, but if you look around you, there aren't many topliners who are just topliners. And I say that with the hatred of the word topliner. Sure, yeah. Because you play instruments, so do I. And you're in the room being like, hey, move the drums here.

And what about this and what about that? But I mean that in a sense that, you know, maybe we're not producers in a traditional sense. But, you know, I was talking to an A&R person recently where we were talking about just trying to put a camp together and looking at people who are, quote, top liners. And it's either the usual suspects or it's somebody who also has an artist career. Right. And then, yeah. And I guess that's why I asked that, not to mention that if you're, most female writers are really pressured for some reason to do the artist thing also. Well, no one's ever pressured me.

What does that mean? I'm just kidding. What the fuck? I got to call my manager. I'm just kidding. I mean, look. Ria? I'm just kidding.

You got your publishing deal because someone saw you playing piano, a video of piano. Totally. So you're kind of a liar. Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's artists inside all of us, right? Like, it's not like, you know, of course, I've like, you know, been like, oh, there is this song. I don't know who could ever sing this and I love it so much. And like, but then I think about what that would, what that would require. And I'm like, next, you know. Do you write songs alone still? Every once in a while. I will say, I, I only, only a cappella walking around my apartment. I don't sit down at a, at a, I have voice memos of, I have voice memos of, just like, what key am I in? I unsure, you know, what's the timing on this? Like, you know.

Do you have a personal life? I do now that I move back to Nashville. I feel like I have slowly started to craft more of a personal life for myself. I just moved back there in, I don't know, maybe November was the soft launch. I'm looking at Joe. I'm like, right? And then, yeah, since February, really, like, fully. like got rid of my place in L.A.

And I think that was part of my next, you know, head, like, whoa, I woke up for a second. And I was like, wait, do I want to be in L.A.? I have no problems with L.A. I love it here. The weather's beautiful, amazing people like you guys are here, of great friends. But it was always just like Nashville has always felt so grounding for me. And I found myself just like working so much here. and I wanted to move into a different way of working. And it's been amazing.

I've found a favorite bar that I go to. What is it? It's called Shulmans. It's on the east side. It's a part of my personality now. How are you there? Well, they say it's a music city with a drinking problem. Wait, a drinking city with a music problem.

But I'm there. Like three times a week. Maybe more. I mean, I have my meetings there now. I've like become friends with the bartenders. They hide cigarettes for me sometimes because I like don't. I try not smoke very much, but sometimes you love it. And yeah, like, and you run in, like I was just there hanging out the other night.

And the next day I had a session with J.P. Sacks and Malay. And they just walked in. And I'm like, what the hell? And it's like a little neighborhood bar And it's just magic It's just like one of those places You just you want to run into the people You're going to run into people you love there

It's on the east side Super nostalgic for me Because that's where I lived the first time I lived in Nashville So yeah We're going to go to the next segment Which is a five for five I'm just named five things

And usually I would say just like a short answer But the first one's not going to be short We're going to go a sense and perfume Okay Wait five Okay, you want to try it? Well, I'll list five things. I'll list five things.

I'll list five things. Name five cents. I'm like, but like I don't think people realize how if you were not in music, you'd probably be in the perfume making industry. So let's go with that. Number one is going to be perfume and sense. Okay, you want five cents. I don't know.

I don't know. Just tell me, it's the first thing on a list of five things that you can say whatever you want. This is so confusing. You just want me to say whatever I want about sense? Yeah. It's amazing. I love scent. I wear a different fragrance every day depending on what I'm doing, who I'm working with. How many fragrances do you have bottled? Probably like 35 or so. And so you just choose a different one per day, sort of like people put on like sunglasses. Exactly. Sometimes I wear like two at a time. I usually layer I wear two. And I've been actually like helping a lot of artists find fragrances to kind of go with their albums, like for them to wear.

that makes, it's like a time stamp for them. Has anybody wanted to bottle it and make it, you know, something that they, that's commercialized? Well, I basically, I don't make them from scratch. I'm just like foraging for niche fragrances. And sometimes we'll wear, you know, like Ash, for instance, artist Ash on her last album. We layered two fragrances like, or like, I don't want to say them in case she wants to keep it.

This is a thing is sometimes for artists, this is so. It's theirs. It's theirs. And it's very important to mark a time like that. And even the other day, we were picking out some for her new album. And she was like, I still wear that other combo. And I'm like, oh my God, my sophomore album. Like, this is so nostalgic when I put it on now that I'm in a new time. And yeah, just something for them. Yeah. Because once you put out music, it belongs to everyone. Like that now everyone does what they want with it And maybe just for you This is the way you can remember the album

You wanted it to feel this way for you Is it a scent from your childhood That the minute you smell you're back in Missouri And you're... Pachuli for my mom she loves My mom, I grew up with my mom We're wearing a lot of fragrances Like big like clinic aromatics

Like just like big Pachuli sheep fragrances And are you with scents the way you are with music where if I just, if I burn a candle, you say, oh, that's this, this, this, this and this at this point? Yeah, I mean, I'm getting there. I actually took a few months off of writing full time a couple of years ago and I did a certificate of perfumery program through Pratt University in New York.

And they just like sent, they send you like 300 single note vials and I just smelled things for months, like one note at a time. And so they taught you. how to even feel it in your body. And so now when I smell a fragrance that has more going on, I'm a lot better at picking a scent out, be like, oh,

I think you were just finishing that when we were working with Kenzie and Wendy. Yes. You know, it's like, it's just cool for people that, you know, it's not, I hesitate to use the word hobby

because who knows where it'll end up. And it's something you really love. So it's hard to call it that. And it's the same way that I write a song. You know, this isn't for me. This is for you. but I can ask you the questions that lead you to your answer.

You know what I mean? It's very, music and fragrance is very, like, co. They cross paths a lot for me. Okay. Next one, I have espresso, and I mean it like the drink. Yeah. I love it. I love espresso.

Put it in my bloodstream. And I make it every day. Let's go with Los Angeles. Beautiful, sunshine, lovely people, big parties, big vibes. I'm just saying words. I'm just like doing... Let's go with your dad. My dad, king, hilarious, musician, fun.

Let's go with your mom. Sassy as hell, beautiful, very resilient, and a boss-ass-ass-ass bitch. This is how you describe your sense. If you want to know what it's like when she's now describing the kind of sense she can help forage for you, that's actually what it sounds like. So I think that that's amazing. All right. You know, every time I see you, I get really genuinely excited to see you. And I have not spent as much time with you as I'd like because you're the kind of person that everybody.

just wants around all the time. Oh, thanks. And I, you know, you're not paying me to do this. You're not sponsoring me to say that. But I just couldn't be more excited to see somebody who's gone through such a journey personally, you know, and career-wise, you've earned everything that you've achieved so far. And by that, I mean, the respect.

of your peers. Oh, thank you. You have so much respect from your peers. They just, everyone says so many good things about you and you've earned that. And the success of whatever happens commercially, fine. That's because you are really good at what you do. But the fact that you're really good to people is why everyone's so excited to have you around.

And, you know, I know you were like that. the first songwriter of the month that we ever did. And it was, I think it's because like us, the industry can't, we can't wait to celebrate you. Oh, thank you. So you've earned all of it. And I appreciate you. I appreciate you, truly. Thank you so much for having it.

I've, like, always been such a fan of this podcast. And I was like, maybe one day I'll be on the writer is. So I feel like this is very cool for me. So thank you so much. There you go. This episode is produced by Joe London, Mega House Management, and myself. See you all next week.

I'm Ross Golan signing off.