And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 210: Jon Bellion | Art Over Algorithm, Always

Episode Date: May 13, 2025

Today’s guest is one of the most original minds in modern music—a genre-defying powerhouse who returns to this podcast six years after his first unforgettable visit. Hailing from Long Island, this producer, performer, and lyrical architect has built a sonic universe entirely his own. He’s the mastermind behind cinematic pop records that blur the line between the underground and the mainstream, with a resume that spans from crafting platinum hits for chart-toppers to delivering soul-baring solo projects that redefine authenticity. Now a father of three, his creativity has only deepened, as he balances vulnerability and virtuosity with relentless hustle. He’s not just a hitmaker—he’s a visionary, a builder, and a storyteller for a generation that craves depth. And the writer is… Jon Bellion!Episode Timestamps:0:00 Bellion’s Return & Industry Fire 0:36 Ross ATWI Intro2:05 Supporting Songwriters’ Rights 2:41 Jon Bellion Returns After 6 Years 3:56 Jon vs. the Algorithm 6:56 AI, Effort & Meaning 9:22 Craft Over Convenience 11:57 Identity, Process & Philosophy 18:21 Credit, Ego & Industry Power 25:32 Sponsor Message from NMPA27:09 Staying Dangerous with Purpose 32:06 Becoming the Label 45:07 Removing Ego from the Process 50:41 Returning to Joy in Creation 54:58 Art vs. Math in Production 57:23 Hits Beyond the U.S. 1:05:16 On Raising Creative Kids 1:07:52 Jon's Words of Advice to His Younger Self1:18:06 Grief, Healing & Writing Through Loss 1:22:32 What Success Really Means in 2025 1:25:00 Writing vs. Recognition 1:47:58 ATWI Credits & Closing Reflections Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I was never going to be an artist again, period. Call capital the day, if you don't give me my master's and switch the ratio and I get the bulk of the masters, I'm never making a song again. Ha, ha, ha, click. Told my wife, I don't know how I'm going to make this work. I'm just going to start writing songs again in the basement. It just went crazy. You got to be careful to not get in the way of your own smashes sometimes.

That's another thing I learned later on. What was the situation that prompted you to write memories? I went to my buddy's father's funeral, who passed away of a heart attack out of nowhere. It's like feeling so much about the loss and the thing that made me think about my grandmother. We did anyone for Reber and memories in the same day. Wow. Yeah. My wife was like, what did you do today?

It's like, we made some sort of just like simple. It's never going to see the light of day. Wrong. I was so wrong. And then you fast forward in Kobe's daughter is like singing it after he passes on ESPN. And I was like, oh my gosh, my ego almost got in the way of what that song was supposed to be. Sometimes you've got to get the fuck out of the way of things that you're making. Even your friends, even your heroes, even your people could be like, this sucks.

No matter how many hits somebody has or whatever, if my gut says that this could be a big song, nobody knows shit. It's like you have no control over the way culture receives these things. If you get the goosebumps when you're making it, go out into the world and that's your sword. Thank you. I got the goosebumps. The benefit that you've given us will only multiply 20-fold after we're all gone. And why I want to keep coming back to this podcast forever, thank you. What do you tell younger John Bellion who's never released music in 2025? What's the advice you give that kid?

I have to keep going. Welcome to And The Writer is. I am your host, Ross Golland. There are millions of singers and thousands of artists, but only 40 songs per genre at a time. This podcast aims to shed a light on those creators who make those songs. I produce this with my friend Joe London, in association with Megahouse Music Group.

Special shout out, Charlotte Isidore, Jad, and Michael White. And you can follow us at And The Writer Is on all your socials. We'll see you there. Now, this week's episode. Welcome to And The Writer Is. I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's visionary artist is back and undoubtedly is about to drop another masterclass

on truth in art and music. This Long Island native uses storytelling, production, and melody as a canvas from which to paint his mind from crafting anthems that feel like movie scores to penning hits for some of the biggest names in the game. He's proven time and time again

that he's not just a singer or a songwriter, but a full-blown architect of emotion. Six years after his last appearance on this podcast, this father of three is a mad scientist with a heart like a poet. and the work ethic of a subway busker.

And the writer is, my friend, he's back, John Bellion. All right. Wow, no pressure. We've had a lot of people come back for a second, third time. I don't really go back and listen to those episodes that often. But I was like, this one, I feel like I should go back and listen. And I was like, this is the tone that we need to set. You know, you said, well, let's see what we discuss on the podcast in 10 years.

and we're six years later and so much has happened like a pandemic and between the two of us five children. Yep. Not like we had them together, but anyway, before we get to that, like you said some amazing things in that podcast. And, you know, before going back and retelling some of your story, you said something that just still people bring up. One was like that I don't want to be a slave to the content beast. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. Talking about this, like, amen.

I mean, for sure you feel it now. Yeah. Oh, my gosh, yeah. What are you still, are we still, are we more so slaves to the content beast? Man, I dipped for six years. I was still no social media on my phone, even with the rollout. We kind of constructed this entire rollout. Just completely different.

You start to learn about just even just a little bit about the algorithm and how it works. I mean, let's just jump right in. Yeah, like the algorithms are not rewarding artists to get directly to their, they're not using the artist as the tools. Where the monkeys dancing to act how the platform wants us to engage with it in order to blow the platform up. So like TikTok and all that stuff, it's like you post once on Instagram. It only reaches 3% of your followers. So then it just kind of hit me like, what if I just got my data back from Capital, got the email list, put out a new, after six years, just announced like an email list and only speak to the fans and give them everything 48 hours early before it goes to the algorithm.

Because if I could reach 3% of all my almost a million followers or whatever on Instagram, I could just email them straight up. So it's like we've only really posted like four times for the whole rollout so far. but somehow the streams are working and things are moving. And so we just, we did everything underground. We did a Windows 98 like forum where the fans talk to each other. And I only interact there and I can speak in long form rather than having to go and tweet and have like thousands of posts and whatever. And then when there's something to really announce, we announced it on the Matrix, but then everyone's had it 48 hours before. Like our first single wash, we recorded a video in Iceland, shot the whole thing, I'm funding this whole thing myself and just gave it away on a weed transfer link for free on email.

48 hours before the song came out. And I've noticed that without any promotion, the fans are so awesome that they're becoming the promotion, like VTS fans do or something, like buying billboards for their favorite artists. It's like if you deliver them something, and I'm blessed enough to be in a position to pay for a video like that, to then just give it out for free to sacrifice all the YouTube views.

But a YouTube view is not worth as much as someone sharing it on their I-Message group chat with their actual friends. Because then it's not like outwardly showy of a fan thing that looks cool to the culture, it looks cool to actual people. So we've been kind of seeing like the benefits from that so far. Why go to Iceland when you can use AI? Let's bring in every great mind in the world to now have this conversation. I'm going to just keep turning the knife and just see how this.

Let's see how this interview goes. Okay. I think honestly you want like we don't have that much time and you know. So this is getting so meta, so fast. I love it. I'm all about it. At a certain point, we're just going to have to choose to work and do the thing because working feels good.

If we keep saying the AI thing and it's like, this is, I'm not trying to say like I'm some sort of like future predictor of what that will all look like. But like at what point you had to grow the tree to get the apple. And then at one point, you had a friend get you the apple and you paid him to get to the apple. Then you had a supermarket. And all you had to do is get out of bed and go to the supermarket. And there's apples everywhere.

And then you had a door down. and they brought you the apple. So at what point is someone just going to mash up the apple in their hand and jam it in your fucking mouth? Like, you need to have purposed at some degree. So as a human, we're just going to have to figure out as musicians. Like, I know I can get 7,000 different guitars on this in 17 seconds. And it will sound better than anything I could have ever played.

But like, I'm choosing to at least like stay at, go to the store and the supermarket to get my apple. Because I need to be in motion somehow to be doing something. And maybe there also will be a time where it's easier. And someone says just like music predict. could end up just being like, like, Siri, bring up a 1975 Eagles guitar and blah, blah, blah, and drop it in here and did it. And maybe prompting and taste will become the forefront of what all this is. And that's a viable possibility.

But for me personally, why not do a video for AI in Iceland and spend a lot of money to get there and fly out the crew and get a crew there and do that whole thing? It's just like, what else I'm like, like, sure, I could just like sit home all day and they could just send me AI images and we could just like do that. but like I like to stay in motion and get in on it. I think people, people can smell it. You know, they know, like, they know, they know, they know. And it's like, you can. Totally. You can give them cinnabonds and they can smell that too.

And they can be like, wow, this is, that guy did the effort. And it's like, I want to, you know, going back to another quote you said, where it was, you know, when somebody comes over for dinner, I don't want to entertain them. I want to feed them. You know, it's that thing. It's like, you can go and be like, look at this thing that I made using my computer and my iPhone. And it's like, wow, that's really cool.

But you're like, look at the effort I've put in this to give you an experience as if you could visit here too. You could, you could make the, you can live via that person. You could, you could make 70 million songs a day and that output. And you can do that. But at a certain point, like, if you're a chairmaker, you'll always get the opportunity to make more chairs and then the factory can come in and you can make 100 million chairs. If you make 100 million chairs, then you can make $100 million.

And then you can buy a bigger factory and you never have to touch a chair again. You're a woodworker and you don't have to touch the chair. It's like, yeah, but I like to touch the chair because I need to have a job and do something. And I could be metaphorically speaking to the idea of what we're running into in the inescapable future of what will take over. But like I still need a job. And at some point someone's going to say, well, that job doesn't make sense. and you say, I would choose to be stupid and do the thing with my hands, and I'll choose to be not as, what's the word I'm looking for,

I will lower my productivity in order to experience the process of doing the thing. Because the problem is we just keep making ourselves deeper in luxury to then not ever do the thing. And then we wonder why we're sad is because we're not doing the thing. We're just having the thing brought to us. But doing the thing is the, is the, the, the reward that is the thing. But slowly, surely we're removing the thing for the end product.

I don't know if that made any sense. You and, you and, no, it makes a lot of sense. You as, like John Ballion specifically, is... You're the first guy. He's the first person in six years that ever gets my name right in any, anything. 17 times yesterday. Hey, with John Bellion, what a great ride. John Ballion.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I've given up on it, but that was encouraging. That's how I know I've known you for many years. Jean Bellion. I just ruined all credibility I've ever had right there. Oh, so you, if I had any. You have a lot of credibility.

John Bellion is the guy who does songwriting. He records music. He releases music. But a lot of your fans are your fans because of you performing me. music. And all of those things are different. You can have a career in any one of those four things. You choose to do all of them. Isn't some of that the chairmaker isn't necessarily doing four different things. He just makes a chair. What's your version of what if you, if somebody says, oh, what are you? Are you a performer?

Are you a songwriter? Are you a producer? Who's John Bellion? Oh my gosh. I'm trying to think of the most practical, realistic like nugget of something someone can draw out of it. I am a product guy. I'm a product guy. I just...

For the artist you are, that is a surprising answer. You're a product guy? product in the sense that when you're done making something, it's consumable for free, for a million dollars, for anything. You've created a production, a product. So I don't mean product as in like, I make things that people want to buy and I make companies rich. I don't mean that.

It's not merchandising. No, but the greatest ever, all those guys are not great producers. They're great product guys. They make a great product. The label calls them to say, we need you to come out with an album. how they get it done, which I used to kick and tantrum about, oh, this guy, he's got all these hits, but I know he's got two writers under him and three producers and da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. But then when you see them work, you go, oh, they're just as talented at producing people as they are,

the Daw system. So you realize, like, product guys are able to last forever. Max Martin's a product guy because you can, I said it, said it the other day, you could make a t-shirt, and the logo and the decal of the t-shirt will always change over time. And as I get older, I will not have the same reference point. for what's supposed to be on that t-shirt. Because my 15-year-old, he'll be at the time. Son, we'll understand that greater than I do,

because I don't live a young man's life. So you could say, well, John Bellion can't work on younger music anymore. I'm a product guy. As long as I can make the T-shirt properly and the cut is nice and I can help them on their journey to help them with the product that they want because I understand product. Well, I can make music for a very long time. Max Martin.

Max Martin was making the Backstreet Boys and then he did some of the weekends hard as shit. but that's not because he's always cool, relevant, blah, blah, blah, knows what's going on, is that people bring their product to him and say, how can I make this viable for a larger amount of people? Because I want people to experience that. Those are the greats. That's the Rick Rubin. That's the Farrell.

That's the, you know, the Max Martins. There's a thought of when you're young and you're using, like what you're talking about is fluid intelligence versus crystallized intelligence. that when you're, I mean, you like basketball. Yeah. When you're a, you know, when you're young and you're Steve Kerr on the Bulls or Steve Kerr on the spurs, you're using your fluid intelligence. You understand the game.

You're within the game. Yes. And using your crystallized intelligence is, oh, well, now I understand all the parts. I'm going to maneuver this. And then even as you grow older, you can be Michael Jordan where you can own the team and the product line and all these things. And they don't, they're not. no longer using the, they may not even have the, they won't have the physical skill or ability

to be, to use their fluid intelligence. Yes. But they have the crystallized intelligence to make the machine work. Absolutely. And they probably could still play pro ball and, and be effective in a different way. That's unbelievable. At the end of the Jordan documentary, he said like, yeah, when I got my seventh, where how many rings did you have?

Six. Six? Six. He said once I got my sixth, I really wish I could go for it two more seasons or something. And he was like, because my mind wasn't a completely different. I knew more about the game at that point. He said, my body wasn't as great as it was five years prior or six years prior. But he was like, man, I think I could have won another one just with my mind just because of how long he's been doing it for and how many championships he's had.

He knew more things about the game and a macro level. I think from a songwriting standpoint and production standpoint, I think that's just an age thing. When I was younger, it was inside the fish ball, creating every single thing. and proving so many points and checking so many boxes. And then the older you get, the more you kind of have to level out just to survive and not lose your life doing this type of stuff. And the more you level out, the more you naturally look at the product or the thing you made. Product is such like a dirty word. You look at the thing you made from outside of the fishbowl thing for you to understand holistically what this is.

What's the utility of this? If you understand the utility of something, you can make it applicable to a larger audience rather than trying to prove a million little points. And the million little points are more, that's a young man's game to me. The million little points of trying to be the, I'm the best here, I'm the best here, I'm the best here, that was a young man game for me. Now I'm only utility driven. Like everything for me is like if I'm looking at a shirt, if I'm looking at a song, if I'm like, what is the utility here? And do I need to not talk for the rest of this session in order for this utility to be the greatest stick in B so someone can go use it? Or do I need to wear the producer, the right, all the hats that you're mentioning.

You have the skill set to do it, all of that. Deadly is turning it on and turning it off. And I think collaborative deadliness at the highest level is understanding that turning it off is just as potent as turning it on. Because you're only here to usher the utility of the product. When you're talking about being in the fishbowl and showing everybody all the things you can do, it's that weird ego that I don't, it must be so ingrained in human nature to be needed or get the. bro everyone's this is a family until riana cuts the song and it's like what you mean i only did the like the human that everyone's best friends until millions get thrown in the pot everyone's family

until the potential of something happens and you you'll see how in myself it switches wait a second i gotta feed my family no no no it turns into a whole other turns into a whole other ballgame I try to as I get older. You want that? Take it. You want to take it? You want that? Like, isn't the splits and stuff?

I try. I try. Every person ever that I've done a song with is going to be like, not the time he did the blank song. But how do you, you know, the industry has changed. Oh, yeah. So much. Absolutely.

Since even six years ago. Mm-hmm. You know, one of the problems with having a lot of collaborators is that, you know, people are looking for streaming services to subsidize the pillaging of publishing. Absolutely. And we just had that conversation yesterday. We now give publishing to people who do drum programming, which is ridiculous because they are not songwriters. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Wait, wait. I want to hear more. Why is that ridiculous to you?

Okay. What I keep saying... By the way, I'm not, I'm not saying I land on a side. I'm literally fascinated at why. Yeah, yeah. We've been talking with a bunch of different producers and creators, and some are like, course the guy that makes the drums is going to get published. Your breakdown is very knowledgeable of this, being that you're an advocate for. If they're a songwriter, then I'm a producer. Full stop. Full stop.

So like, if we're- I've never agreed to something more in my life. If we're sharing everything, then let's share everything. Yeah. Then I also want, I also want my production and I want my equal percentage on production. It's so you're actually looking at and I don't fall on this. You're literally looking at. the side of, you're literally looking at like capitalism and what's the other side of that?

Communism or socialism or socialism, whatever. Those two things, the outplay of those two things, you're damned if you do, damned if you don't in the most extreme versions of them in some way, which is probably why you need balance in all things. I think balance is super important. You're right. It's like if we're splitting every single thing, then the Uber driver who brought the almond milk to pull. pouring your fucking coffee that morning should be getting publishing. Because without that moment of that thing, you would have never thought of that chorus. And you made a song called...

Almond milk. A pop bedroom song. He made me almond milk in the morning. And I woke up and I... I'm just going to fuck around. But, like, if... He's going to get equal publishing for whoever samples that makes a hit off of it. That's my challenge.

I want someone to challenge. And we're going to play this over quietly. Play it. Cool. All right. Now take that. You're going to, whoever gets it now has a John Bellion cut. Congratulations.

I recognize. You guys have a co-write. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sometimes it's also like you got to like hypercompete to get in the cool club. And then there's six people in the room that are the hottest at the moment. And they all come together. And you have a really good chance of an A&R who knows nothing about nothing musically. They just know John Bellion, Amy Allen, Omar Fetty, and that are in a room.

And if that's the case, they're going to listen to that song. Yeah. You know, they're going to pay for the plane tickets. Everyone's going to get. So then you have a higher chance to get in the cut. So then you're in a room with a lot of people. It's just the name of the game. You got guys like Rick Viato or whatever being like,

how could there be eight people on the song and blah, like, this is crazy. Like this is nuts. And music should have never been this way. It's like, what do you want to do, man? At certain points, you have to define these things. We're going to go to Capitol Hill and define what all of those things are. And when someone walks in the room,

you're like, wait, wait, wait, wait. If you step three more steps forward and you even say a melody, please do not do that because you will not be here today. No, no, no, no, no. It has to flow. You know what I'm saying? It does have to flow. My thought is this is...

I'm playing both sides of the fence, by the way. Sure. And one is, yes, you do go to Capitol Hill and you do define it. That's one thing. Example, yes. You know, if an actual song, I believe the definition of music is organized sound, which is great. The definition of a song is lyric and melody. because you can change what's underneath it.

And it's still the lyric and melody. So when we think of what a song is in a technical way, because you can interpret that song in so many different ways, the people who are interpreting the song are different than those who are crafting the song. Absolutely. Sometimes, you know, the last time we did a session, maybe the last time I saw you in person, I don't know if this is right

but last time we like did a session it was at Monsters and Strangers Pollock was there and Amy Allen was there and I am also inexplicably there and I'm like I said if you're not

and you're like you're like you know in that room everyone there is contributing to the song so that's different I'm that those people

are different than like we're running into a larger we're running into a larger We're running into a larger issue. We're running into a larger, like, there's a sense of scarcity, therefore you have to get into the minutia of what all that means.

Meanwhile, the label's like, I don't give a shit. We get R-40, fuck off, you guys figure it out. We'll give you six points. And I said it in the Janko interview. I said, we drop a stake in the UFC pit, and we sit on our cow, and we drop one steak in the pit, and we say, peons,

fight for it. I'm not saying that a drum programmer shouldn't get publishing. I'm not saying any of that stuff because when you get into the nitty gritty of it, some days I have gone full-blown psycho and went to another world and made 100% of a song in front of a room full of eight people

and all people have split it. And then there's other days where I've been like, this is just a great song, I have nothing to say. I'm watching a great song. And then we end up splitting it even. That's different. I'm not suggesting that. I bet you everybody would be way more,

way more easier on this conversation is because we're all spinning our wheels together, getting the mince meat. And if anybody's, if we're working on moral and principle and you take my bank account into consideration, shut the fuck up. That's not,

you cannot, you're not allowed to like diminish my opinion on what is morally just and right in a given situation, given the amount of money. So if we were only making $10, then I can fight for what I believe is right. But if I make $2 million on it,

when there's $30 million on the table, and I'm like, that's not right. And someone's like, well, you're already rich. It's like, that's not the fucking point. Because us fixing it at the high level, we'll fix it at the low level, which will fix whatever.

So, like, that's just like, that's a ridiculous statement to make towards somebody. You have an opportunity to create the precedent that will affect those who are in the middle, lower and middle class of song ready who are working the way up. We're looking at a pizza pie. Then they're taking one piece of the crust off the pie. And all of us are, like, arguing and getting in fights. And our egos are coming into play is because we're literally like, but like, I need that little crumb of the pizza pie. And it's like, dude, I don't know how to like, I don't know.

get on horseback and go ride into fucking Sony and be like, I light this on fire. Like, let's change the world. I don't fucking know. But like let's call a spade of spade. And people wonder why I get a little iffy in front of some of these guys. They take us out to dinner. I got questions.

NMPA is the premier organization for music publishers and their songwriter partners. It's their mission to increase the value of music. And that's exactly what they do. NMPA is working right now to raise. royalty rates for songwriters from streaming services, radio, social media, and everywhere, music is essential. From the courts to Congress, NMPA works to get songwriters what they deserve. I know because I've served on the board before, and I'm the current co-chair, along with

Ryan Teter and Liz Rose for the Golden Platinum Club. So again, thank you NMPA for supporting End the Writer is and songwriters everywhere. Let me just, just quickly, because when you do it for a long time, there's passion behind it. He was like, he just looks upset because he's got so much money and that's not that. You're struggling artistically for fucking 10 years. No, and when I think if people are as successful as the day you meet them, this is a great truth, by the way. There's a podcast, I think it was a Malcolm Gladwell one where he talked about how people

remember the ends of stories and the beginnings of people. Wow. I love that. I don't think of you. I'm like, you don't walk in. I'm like, I'm not like, holy shit, look at all that you've done other than me being proud of my friend. I don't, I don't, I think of a different version of you. That really opens up a thing for me that encouraged. I feel encouraged by that.

Because if you just like, you were saying like, what are you? It's like, I'm a product guy. But like, I also just like really care. And when you care, you risk saying something to lead in an individual. direction that might not be fully formed or whatever, and you have to be willing to be like, okay, I was wrong about that, but I still care the same amount. So I have to keep going and figuring this out in a way that no matter how successful I get, I still have to remain relatively dangerous. The problem is you get so successful that everybody just shuts you up

and you're not dangerous anymore to make any type of change. I'm not saying you have to remain so dangerous that you're willing to burn something down that you kill everything in your path on the way. There has to be some sort of balance and nuance. Have I figured that? out, no. But there are times where it's like, sometimes you, you got to remain in this weird place of like, I'll light the money on fire. I'll light the money on fire. And you got to look them in the eye and be like, why? It's like, because I'm, I'm just fucking sick in the head. I have everything I need. Have my wife. I have my kids. Why are you not da, da, da, da, and people will be like, oh, he's, he's going over the top and it's this. It's like, it's not

that. It's just like, you don't, you don't know what 10 years, you know what 15 years of waking up every single day trying to do the thing. And every single day, you get hammered over the head with some sort of, and then you have one conversation and you go blah, blah, la, la, and people are like, his arm, his on, he's always, you're struggling. You're, like, you're, like, clawing in a fucking race. And then by the time you get, like, near the finish line, people are like, why are you so tired?

It's like, man, I, we've done, we've done, like, looking at the number from your first interview, you're in the 50s. 50-something if interview. Now we're at like past 200. And if there's one thing you can take away from this podcast, it doesn't matter how successful you are, we are all struggling musicians. In the sense of it.

I don't care who you are. If you are trying to create music, you are walking in to a wall every single day. Every single time. By the time I did ex-artists, I don't need to say names. I did a bunch of songs on a single album. And I never did that many songs on a large artist record.

And then five months later, I figure out like, oh, I should have been the executive producer. No one ever even acknowledged it. No one offered me points. I wrote with a great, a bunch of talented people. I wrote a lot of the songs. I produced on every single one that I was. And then six months later, I was like, oh my gosh, they held on to like four extra points that would have been such a big difference. And then me moving forward, the CEOs want to be like, why are you so angrily being like, I'm executive producer?

Because you did 10 out of 12 songs. It's like, because I'm not going to, that's not going to happen to me again. No one told me the keys. No one let me know. So when you keep going, you don't know any information. And then you're like in these spaces trying to figure it out. And then you learn what you learn. And then moving forward,

it's tough not to be a bit snippy or jaded or whatever because it's like, hey, you're not going to do that to me the way that you did that to me six years ago. So you're bringing all this like trauma and pain and whatever into the situation. And as your bank accounts going up as well, yeah. Like it's not those two things are not like simultaneous. Like it's like the bank account number doesn't change. No, the thing that makes... Everybody's Instagram doesn't look like the conversation that they have with their manager.

If you let go of the conversations in audio you had with your manager, this whole thing wouldn't be like, thanks for having me. When I wrote the record, it was like an amazing situation. It's like, no, that wasn't how you... That's not that. So let's call a spade and just like try to figure it out. And if you have to look silly in the process, then just look silly in the process. We still have to be dangerous enough to figure it out,

to look silly and figure it out. It's like, we're trying to figure this out in real time. think what's when you were talking about how you get protective because you're like this is my family now yeah you know uh you start to change the whole thing where it's like no that four points is not for me it's for my children yeah it's for my wife yep it's for it like this is my life yep this is not like i'm not happy to i'm happy to be here but that's not why i'm doing it yep and there's like a difference i think the assumption is that songwriters should be happy to be there still and you're like

nah. And I was talking to a writer bro, where in the where in the hold on to that whatever you're thinking I've heard you should talk to a writer

we are at the it's not woe is me I'm just telling you from the pie chart we are literally getting pennies on the dollar and creating the entire song what would the fair

what is the in your eyes what is the fair breakdown of what songwriters and producers do compared to what an artist does, compared to what a label does. Well, it's like you always have to like keep your ego in check as well

because you also recognize that a lot of these artists gave up their entire lives to make your two points very valuable. So if you do get two points from ex-artist who's like this miserable king on a hill that like is super famous and they're trapped in their life and their whole thing, and you're like, I go home to my family and I just like go hang out. The check comes in the mail. Their sacrifice has made them a money machine. so I can't necessarily be like

now I want 20 points because you also have to factor that into the situation like this artist technically gave up their life in order for me to have a valuable two points so then I feel kind of bad being like you know what I should get 20 of them which like John that contradicts everything you've ever said it's like those are just the thoughts in my mind I'm like I should probably like chill like

you can get your points but then other times I'm like what the artists are only getting paid it's like very contradictory but we are on the I would say I would say very clearly though that songwriters are on the bottom of the pole i gotta get editorial playlisting for this album coming and shit but like someone's got it but if it's streaming

has paid songwriters dirt dirt bro i'm not fucking the martin luther king of songwriting i'm not i'm not claiming to like lead us to some sort of like odd promise land i'm just saying like songwriters have been paid dirt, bro. Go talk to like a hot songwriter. That's known for coming in and the producers understand that they're a songwriter and the songwriter comes in and they're a hot songwriter. It's like, well, that's just a game and you got a work in life and you got a can't complain. It's like, I understand that. It's like, but songwriters got it. Rough. I've written enough records and produced enough records to see a lot of sides of a lot of things. I'm the label now, so I'm seeing the side of the label and the struggles of that because I'm funding my own

my own album now. It's like, what it is, I don't know. I just love caring and having conversation about it because the knowledge of it will help someone much younger have a way better time by taking how I messed up. Someone much younger just doesn't have to mess up that way. Well, the more we talk about some of these things, the more ubiquitous the concepts are, the more that, you know. The general consciousness. Yeah, the next person. Like we get health care for songwriters. That currently doesn't exist because we don't have a proper group insurance for songwriters.

Like, that will happen because we keep talking about it. I'd like to think that we can claw back some of the publishing from people who aren't songwriters who are asking for publishing along the way. I'd like to think that we'll get, you know, that we'll get participation on sound recordings and masters as songwriters. I hope that that also becomes part of the conversation because we keep talking about it. It's the crazy person to some degree that kicks and screams. And at first listen, you say, what?

They're rich, they're this, they're that. That doesn't make any sense. But then you say, like, yeah, he's, then you go to a party. And you sit down with your friends. And some of them might be an A&R. One might be a CEO. Might be this. And yeah, that dude's nuts, right?

He was talking about how, like, songwriters get paid dirt. Like, so rich. What an idiot. Yeah, yeah. What an idiot. And then the room goes quiet. And then, like, someone in the back is like, songwriters do get paid dirt. Yeah, right.

And then the whole, the whole consciousness generally moves. So it's important to some. degree. That's what I've talked about my wife with this. It's just like, I don't really know what I'm doing. I just know like I have to do it to enact the thing. That's, yeah. Because you were part of funding, you know, and you're like, oh, now I'm funding my career. No, you're kind of well known for funding your career throughout other people's supposed to be funding your career. So I'm not like, that's not really news. But by putting yourself in that position, you have, you've like, yeah, I think people conflate success with advocacy sometimes.

You're like, no, these are totally separate things. Absolutely. If you're saying that song artists get paid more, you're not saying, it's not the commercial that, what was it, title did when they first came out where it was like songwriter saying, no, we need it. It was, you know, Jay Z and Beyonce and Jack White and like this table of like the greatest songwriters of all time, or artists of all time, certainly not songwriters,

the artists of all time saying that they should, that they should, that this is a place where they can, where songwriters can get paid more. And it fell flat because it didn't, it didn't specify the idea that, no, no, it's not, it's not for us. Yep. You know, there are streaming services that pay better to songwriters than Spotify, but you'd have to change consumer habits, and that's unlikely to happen. Exactly. So anyway, I want to talk about some of the stuff since 2019 when we did this last. May you said some incredible things on that interview.

You texted me sometime maybe over COVID or something where you listened through it. And it was like some of the aspirations that you had, you fulfilled and exceeded by like 10fold. And you found you're a circle of writers. Granted that you have a couple circles. You found a few circles that really just did so much pop damage in a way that the Brill Building has moments or Motown has moments. Totally. You know? Yeah.

I want to go into some specific songs, but first some of the specific writers, you know, Monsters and Strangers, Pollock, Michael Pollack, Amy Allen, you know, that crew of some permutation, it just seemed easy. Was it? Is it? Easy in the sense of like your life's a lot easier when you're around people of that caliber, of that talent level, which sometimes I'm like, that's probably a skill of mine. as well. It's like I can identify to be like, oh, you'll help. So that's always in my brain when I'm in a room.

Like I'm always just like, oh, you'll help. Crystalize intelligence. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't have to do, I don't have to do trumpets. I'm not going to do all of it on this one. There's certain people when you watch them and you watch them in the first 10 minutes and Amy Allen, she gets on the guitar and it's just like a freestyle and you just know. You've been doing it long enough where you're just like, oh, in the back of your mind,

you're like, she's about to have, she's about to have dead more. Cool. Let's write. Let's go. Same thing with Polly. Same thing with, like, I'm trying to think of all like, Tehran. Certain guys, you're just like, whether I'm in the room or not, he's got about to go off. Let's make some music. And that's just the kind of way that I've kind of like treated it, you know. I feel like Memories was the first hit after our interview. And it maybe came out like right during that, some of that, you know, there's like, that might have even at the time after, you know, years after the M&M stuff. It's like that might have been the biggest hit you had had at the time.

Probably. Probably. Probably, yeah. You know, I don't know. How did it start feeling to have these hits with other people at that level while also still pursuing being an artist? I wasn't at the time. The artist thing was completely shut down.

Internally, too? Internally. I was never going to be an artist again, period. Crazy. Yeah. Call Capital the day, if you don't give me my master's, and switch the ratio and I get the bulk of the masters, I'm never making a song again.

Ha, ha, ha, click. I said, you think I'm bluffing. I'm not bluffing. I will just never make a song again. I do not care because I just can't in my right mind. Could I have kept making songs? Was it self-inflicted? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Yeah, but I actually wasn't too, like absolutely depressed about it. Like, I was just like, this is just healthier for me. Like, I just don't, even this whole chase for me is not as healthy. And I told my wife, I said, I'll just go back to, We still love me if I go to McDonald's. I don't know how I'm going to make this work. I'm just going to start writing songs again in the basement and just like, hopefully that works. And it just went crazy.

Like for the last six years, it just went nuts. So nuts to the point where the regime changes at Capitol. And I get a phone call and they're like, you're worth more to us. Yeah. Having 10, 20% on our side and you get 80 rather than us having 80 and 20 and you never putting out anything. Yeah. And honestly, this is a crazy shout out to Fletcher. Fletcher wanted to work with me if she was on Capitol.

And Fletcher was kind of like, why is John being like a little weird about working with capital artists? Like, what's going on? I think it was to Jeremy Vernick, who was working there at the time. And Jeremy had no skin in my game. He came in after I came in. He's working with Halsey at the time and blah, blah, blah. He kind of came in and was like, yo, what is it going to take for you to like come back and just like be happy? I'm like, just on my music.

Just on my music. I'm not even saying you guys got to be out of the question. I get 100%. You just got to give me my shake. If I'm producing and writing and did it in my own music, I'm going to need that. And he was like, that actually sounds super fair. He calls the president at the time, I'm sure there was another regime change, whoever the president of capital was at that time.

They can't hold on to their seats out there. But he called me on something. And they were just on some like, let's just switch it. We didn't even sign you. We're two presidents gone and regime changes from when you got signed. What is it going to take, John? I was like, yo, just flip it, invert it and give me my stuff back. And they were just like down for the cause.

Hold on. I want to get back to, sorry, I get the talented writers around me. No, that's right. All this is good. I think the, you know,

one of the questions I was having about something like memories was just going back to that because it sort of becomes this like, oh, it introduced the writing team, some of those talented writers, this like group. Yes. So I think that's why I'm,

I feel like that, that, the memories thing is an interesting. turning point in your career, at least commercially speaking. Yes. And my question is that Memories is about my friend's father had passed away. So it because it was supposed, I thought Memories was, you know, at least their performance was about Jordy losing their manager.

Yeah, yeah. Well, Adam wrote on that second verse and he definitely infused his situation into the thing. So tell me about what was the situation? that prompted you to write memories. We had literally just got, I literally had walked in, everyone was working and I had to skip a day. I had to skip a day

because I went to my buddy's father's funeral who passed away of like a heart attack out of nowhere. And I literally left the funeral, changed the dress shoes, put on sneakers and drove to the Hamptons where like everybody was there that day. And correct me if I'm wrong. You could ask Pollock or we did anyone for Reber

and memories in the same day. Wow. Yeah. I'm almost, 99% positive that like the nuggets, both of those nuggets that were started on that day were both of those long. I think explicit. It was me explicit. Raul from Oji Balta.

It was like we were running some sort of camp or something. And then it ended up just like in both rooms, things just were popping off. And I was just like feeling so much about the loss and the thing that made me think about my grandmother, which then birthed telling my wife if it's not you. Just like if something happens tomorrow. Yeah. Crazy. Yeah.

Yeah. a lot happened during that time yeah which makes you realize too i learned so much about writing those songs with geniuses like explicit poll like monsters and strangers geniuses um i learned so much in that thing is like you got to be careful to not get in the way of your own smashes sometimes that's another thing i learned later on where i was doing like kind of like yeah yeah keep playing that it's like yeah and if it's like a you know a uh like bob marley-esque thing there's a time that i remember And I'm on the mic and I'm thinking like, this will never, but it's flowing very easily. I remember getting back to my house last night.

And my wife was like, what did you do today? It's like, we made some sort of just like simple. It's an organ. It's never going to see the light of day. And I was wrong. I was so wrong. And then in my mind, too, I'm always like, oh, I'm trying to make this artistically accomplished thing and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then when it was about to come out, I was like, could we add drums and make it cooler?

It's like, this is like really pop. And I'm like scared of how pop this was. but what if I'm known as the guy who makes like pop songs? And it started to kind of take over. And then you fast forward and Kobe's daughter is like singing it with her class after he passes on the ESPN. And I was like

oh my gosh, my ego almost got in the way of what that song was supposed to be. Like thank God I've learned a little bit on how to get out the fuck out of the way of things I'm making. Sometimes you've got to get the fuck out of the way of things that you're making. One thing you're really protective about is your fan base.

Yeah. And I think when you're writing for other people is about being protective of their fan base. If that makes sense. Like when we're, when we're in, it's one of the things that we champion in this studio in particular. It's like when you walk in, you're not in my studio. We're not in your studio.

And if you're an artist, you're not even in yours. You're in your fan studio. What can we give them? Wow. That's an experience where they can feel connected to you. Wow. What can we,

the conversation is with them. Yep. So if you can make it only about fans, like ego has to be out. Has to. And you're in service. Like you're so far removed from that. Like if you're not championing the, if you're not protecting the fan base of the artist you're writing with, you know,

and some of that's giving them something that they weren't expecting. I was going to say, sometimes protecting the fan base is cracking them in a way to open them to the idea of what something like the Jonas Brothers record that I did, like we top to bottom, executive produced the record. And it was very, I think it was, It was like, I felt in my gut. It was just like a great moment in time to just be like, let's just like take this to a place. Yeah, just go there.

Just go. And then see where the chips fall. And like, you're right. Sometimes it's the other thing. Sometimes it's like you have to gauge where a person's at. And it's like, well, they need the big one right now. Yeah. If so-and-so artist is like kind of popping on something, something, something, da-da-da.

You're like, you don't even know it yet. And I know you're trying to be like whatever. But Rihanna had to make shut up and drive to get to run this town. Like Bruno Marz had to make the lazy song to get to uptown. funk. It's like you have to like, that's another thing you do when you're been in the game for a while is that like people also bring you in sometimes for you to tell them what your opinion is on what they might need. Because you're in service of them, you know? Your run with Bieber gets pretty crazy too. I mean, obviously the holy anyone, hold on, ghosts.

I mean, it's basically, you know, it's a lot of that album. Yeah. You know, in And sort of like, I think the two most valuable things for a songwriter is to break an artist and to reinvigorate an artist. And with memories, you do that with Maroon 5. And Bieber, it's like that on steroids, where it's like here he had reached, he was at the top. And then he gets top of year. Like, how does that happen? But like, like, how did he?

Why did your vision align so well with Justin's vision in the time of purpose? Flawed guy trying to do the right thing, happened to be married, happened to exist in a space where they're frustrated and still want to make an impact positively. And it just was just like, and when those two things just kind of hit, it was like, I feel like I know you well enough because I kind of am you in a non-creepy way. It's just like I am the, I understand your thing. The thing that you're, whatever you're struggling with, that you, that it takes over sometimes and it comes back and it did it. And the thing you're, but the impact you're trying to make, it was just very, it was very simple. I was just writing songs about my life. And I think it just so happened that like doing a session with Watt.

I was doing a session with Skrillix. I did a session with da-da-da-da. And it just so happened that like Bieber happened like by the grace of God was on like a trail of working with the producers that I was working with. And he just kept going from place to place. And Skrillix would be like, oh, I think Love by You is the one I did with Skrillix on the Bieber record. And he hit play and it's my vocal. And I think Bieber then starts working with Watt. And Watt's like, dude, I'm working with this guy.

Johnny hits this baseball on the vocal and it's me. I think after a while he was like, someone gave me this kid's number and FaceTime and operate from there. So I think it was just like serendipity in a way that you just can't control. Just imagine had you gotten four points on that record. Can you share any? could you share every writer and actual writer producer is going to be like wow

could you share any any memorable stories specifically well I mean that's a memorable story we'll just move by the way by the way that album also the people involved like the best from scooter down changed my life yeah like that's

so it's not it's not all like you know I just think I'm super grateful for that situation yeah for sure and Bieber's this is this is the thing that like I can be very clear about it's really fun to write with you. Like one of the things that you say is like, is this fun? Even if it's a serious song, is this fun to sing? Everyone's like, how do you change the paradigm?

It's like when you wake up to be like, yo, I'm going to change the paradigm today. Like, yeah, that could be in like your shoebox under your bed as your like macro goal. But if you're having a blast, it's very hard to compete with that. It's very hard to compete with the guy who's having a lot of fun. Steph Curry's having a lot of fun. Steph Curry's having a lot of fun. Steph Curry's having a blast. Very hard to stop that guy.

Yeah. Very hard to stop when you're having. Yeah, he loves it. He's like dancing and shit. I think that's the thing about like that, you know, I can't tell if you love or love the music business. I don't know either. Because I feel like I love it.

I love the parts that are terrible and I love being loud about that. And I like it and like it's fun to fight fights that. when it's very clear you're on the right side of where it's hard to justify. It's hard for somebody to come in and justify, hey, this person played a sample on, you know,

use a sample and he also wants, all these people want publishing. And it's just like, it's pretty hard for you to justify that to me. I know. Because you know where I'm going to stand with it. So that person has to call it the tail between their legs and be like,

hey, This person wants 10% of the song. You know the answer. So why are you asking me? It's fun. Like that part's fun. I like that. It feels good to be in that position because you so clearly would be able to go to war for that position.

You're like, listen, I'm putting my ego. I'm putting my pride on the table here. Like, let's go to war. Let's have this conversation. It's easier to have a conversation when you feel like there's no way out of this. You know what it is? Run the idea through telling someone who doesn't make music. Yeah, yeah.

When you tell the story of how this song came to be, it's like, if we turned on a camera in that room that day, would you be proud of whatever? Now think of what you're asking for. Yeah. And sometimes, that's usually the tactic. Well, that's what my thing is like, let's go back to when only songwriters were listed as songwriters and then say, okay, you tell me what is a songwriter? And if you can justify that those other things are songwriting, not. not a publishing play. Are they songwriters?

Did they write the song? Because pretty sure most of those people are going to struggle with the vocabulary to justify that contribution of songwriting. Okay. The, it's true. Junkook. Yeah. Whoa.

That was way bigger than I thought that was going to be. Maybe not. And the Jim and thing, too. and the Jim and thing Yeah, the lead Yeah, I don't know They'd just be taking my songs I'm down to the cause

I'm not gonna fucking I'm not gonna fucking like Fight that thought process It's just like sure A conversation Do you think of songs Written for specific genres As more

Emotionally successful than others Oh yeah absolutely And there's certain intentions that I sometimes walk into things with. Like sometimes I'm like, this song clearly, and given the artist chose life and the direction that they want to live and the lifestyle that they want to lead, this is clearly more of me doing the greatest version of a math equation to go get the most people to come and listen to the song. Sometimes that's just my only thing. I don't even care what you're singing about. I don't even care what you're doing. Given the artist, given the directive of where they want to take this artist, the artist's goals and how things.

famous or huge they want to be. Sometimes I'll be writing songs. I'll be like, my artistic integrity of my personal taste has gone completely out the window. And I'm like, all I know is when you get out of the car, you're still going to be singing it. And sometimes there's records that you just like,

you got to get rid of the... Some people just want to stay artistic all the time and be like, I'm an artist because it's fuck you. I just think that there's a time and a place for it all. McDonald's after the club is great. I think I said that on the last podcast. McDonald's after the club is great. Ain't nobody want great Poupon and fucking, you know, fish eggs for after the club.

You want like a greasy, dirty disgust. There's a time. And we wake up the next day and say the club was fun and that McDonald's was great. Because there's a time and a place for it. To say that there's one way to be about every single record approach. It's just like that's a young man's thought process. One of our writers has a really big K-pop song coming out. And we've been having this discussion.

Like, I have a song coming out in China with this woman who sold 46 stadiums out in You've never even heard of her. What? Yeah. Jolin Sy, and she's super nice. She's really good. She's like a Madonna there. You don't even know she exists.

That's nuts. And it's this idea of like, if your songs are being performed in front of that many people, isn't that the same as, like, I feel like in the people who are listening to this podcast who are songwriters are thinking that they need to see people that look like them, for them to understand the, how big a hit is in Asia, India. Wait, are you word that? What do you mean?

Like, I think that a lot of times people look at the success of a song through the eyes of like, oh, this song is being performed in an arena in Omaha, in an arena in Seattle, an arena in Miami. But when it's in Shanghai and it's in or it's in Seoul or it's somewhere else, that the songwriters don't really feel the same kind of joy when they just don't understand like the 2.3 billion streams. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It doesn't matter. How incredible is that?

How important it is in a small world like we have right now that we celebrate our writer's successes in regions that are not the United States. That if you have the biggest hit in South America, that is just as cool as anywhere else. Absolutely. And I just think there's this weird understanding because there's this giant race in L.A.

and in, you know, mostly in L.A., aiming for what's big in L.A. And what's big in, like, in the United States. Yeah. But you write that song that's really big in Korea and the rest of Asia and the rest of the world, that is, that is just, it's huge. It's huge.

I think that consciousness is growing simply because songwriters are having to go to other areas and avenues outside of, I think like right now, a lot of huge artists they have there, like right-hand man. Like, even working on my album, I had the same Pete Nappy and Tenrock where the real, like, glue of, like, the album because you're together and your thought-streaming consciousness,

and I think the idea of like big records from a bunch of different people for a huge artist because they're going to have a string of hits on the radio. I don't even not sure how much that even exists anymore. Man, it's just like Olivia and Dan. It's like Billy and Phineas. Like you're not, you can song write and you could, but a lot of these artists are so talented that they're just going to want to write their own shit. I'd rather make a worse song for myself as an artist,

but I made it because it's me rather than getting some sort of pre-packaged thing. Because the idea of a pop star now is like it just doesn't exist anymore. I don't think people like celebrities anymore. I think it's just like it's just dead. You could be, it's almost like people are celebrities for how much they're not. Like, hi, I'm like a streamer and I just like wake up and play video games. You know me. It's like, yeah, I know him.

He's not above us. It's like, yeah, that's my guy. The second you start to get into this thing, something about celebrities now, people are just like, shut the fuck up. Because I'm kind of in that place. Shut up. Shut up. It's like, we're all struggling. We're all like, stop.

Stop. Stop. The rehearsed, like, I just got to say the thing that makes no one mad at me thing. It's like, we're wasting so much artistic time. We're wasting so much artistic time. It's like insane. Have you ever written a song for somebody else and then realized it's to John Bellion to give it to them and kept it for yourself? There is a record on the new album featuring Luke Combs. It's a duet that me and him are doing together. And probably four different artists cut that record. And I'm not even trying to sound over. spiritual about it or anything, all four of them were like personally text me with the song back and said, something happened when I tried to sing this, this is not my song, this is yours. That's never

happened to me in my career. But this song specifically four different artists and four completely different genres of music, we're going to take this song. And all four of them were like, I tried to cut this. And I literally, this is your record. There's a dust on this thing. There's a, there's a spirit on it. There's whatever. That's never happened to me. And that was the only song I made during the complete hiatus of I'm never going to be an artist again. Because me, Amy Allen and Blake Slacken were in the studio, and I won't say the artist's name, but he had to cancel. It's like something happened. He got sick or something.

But it was where I live in Cove City in Long Island. We were in Cove City, the studio. And it was Blake Slacken was like, you know what we should do? If they're not going to show up, Blake said it. I'll give him the credit all day long. He's like, I want to make a John Bellion record. I was like, dude, I haven't written a John Bellion record in like three years. And I'm never going to be an artist again.

He's like, I don't care. He's like, I kind of came here to just make a John Ballion record. Because let's be honest, this is going to be a John Villain record, whether the artist cuts it or not. And I remember him laughing. And then Amy was like, I'm so down. Like, yeah. Amy's been super supportive of my artist stuff too. She came to shows when we were torn and stuff.

She's great. She's super genius, just like Blake. And they both were like, yeah. And that was 48 hours before my son was born. So I wrote the song, This song, Why is a panic attack, 48 hours before my son came into the world. He came four weeks early, so I didn't expect him to come into the world. But it was this like, my wife could call me. at any moment to tell me that my first son is coming

and I started having these weird existential. Where were you when your wife was? I was on my way to the studio again. With the same, with the, I think it was Nile Horn. Two days later, Nile Horn, the different artists came to Long Island to the Cove City studio. And he was just in the studio with some guys that are 10 Rock, Clyde and Jordan of Lawrence, super talented band.

And my wife, I was like, on my way to the studio. My phone rang. My wife's like, yeah, we're having a baby. You can't go to the studio today. Like, what? We didn't have the crib. It was four weeks early. I didn't, like, build it yet.

I had my brother-in-law come over. I was like, here we got to get this ready. But, yeah, the whole song is about this, like, giant question. I'll play it for you if you have time after. Oh, yeah. I'll play a couple songs. And Luke went crazy on it. Luke went crazy on it.

The song is crazy. I've got to say Luke and Blake and Amy have all been on this podcast. And it's like, you know, it's nice to see, like, the family, like, doing the thing. I love it. Are you a good, dad? That's the whole album. I don't know.

That's the whole album. That's this whole entire record. I mean, the title makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, fitting into that figure of what that is and what that means today, what that means for me, what that means for me? What's the figure of a father for me to try to mold myself, too, that feels right for me. That's the whole thing.

What is the job of a dad? Being present. as I'm in L.A. across the country. No, but we have this conversation. You know, in this generation, because you have the ability to, especially for songwriters,

you can often work in your head. You can be, you know, is it better to be present and sometimes distracted? No. Or is it better to be absent as previous generations? And it's more, like present or absent. Like it's because it's hard to not be a little bit distracted from time to time now.

I think the fight for a father for something or the fight for me as a father is present and not distracted. Do you put your phone away? Yes. Period. On weekends, it's very, very hard to get in contact with it. It doesn't make me a great dad. I'm just, you're asking such an existential question.

Are you a great dad? It's like, that's, that's, it's. I mean, there's a battle we all have, right? I wake up every day. It's like, even with my oldest son, I have three boys. Even with my oldest son, he gets a bit of the brunt of my anxiety and my thing. Is this proper behavior? And then my guy under him, he crashes out on the floor and has a tantrum.

And I'm like, that's two-year-old behavior. But with my oldest, I don't have that gauge. He's the first three-year-old I've ever had. He's the first four-year-old I've ever had. Were you an older-s still? No, I was the youngest of four. Same. And by the way, I got that, I had tattoos when I was 15.

I was in my sisters, my brother, they were not able to get tattooed. I got the easy, I got the chill parents. I never understood until my son was born. My wife's a younger sibling. I'm a younger sibling. My daughter is a younger sibling. The only one who knows what it's like to be an older sibling is my son. And like, when you're an adult, you're like, I've got to learn from this kid.

This kid is about to teach me all the way. I realize I have to give my oldest son a ton of grace. because I sometimes my wife says that to me a lot. I don't give myself a lot of grace. I expect so much out of myself and I have to, I have to like, I'm very, very hard on myself, like wildly hard on myself. And I think that creates what it creates in me. But I got to make sure I'm not projecting that onto my oldest son.

Because again, I don't have a reference point for proper behavior for a young kid. So then when he yacks out in the supermarket because he can't get a cookie or whatever, I can't have a panic attack to say, does he have a behavioral problem? Is this kid out of his mind? I got to breathe slow. Because now my two younger guys, they'd be doing the same thing. I wanted the spoon that was red, not the one that was blue. And then you hang in the red spoon and they still freak out because they doesn't have a green spoon.

When my oldest was doing that, I was like, whoa, I turned to my wife. I'm like, is this normal? What's happening? And my impatience and my, because it was a reflection of, you're a reflection of me. And if you act this way when you get older, society won't accept you. And my job is to make you likable. And it was like, all that anxiety. That's a reflection of me.

Kids, kids will, because you show you, this is my problem, not his problem. But the problem is you only learn that with your younger kids because your oldest one is like the one spearheading the experiences that you've never had as a parent. They're so brave. My son, my son. Sweet boy. Might not even need to keep all this. So this is a sweet boy. He's a good boy.

She handles it very well. Probably going to have to do it. Yeah. It's weird when I see anything with a... Dads and sons is a separate thing because you are just like... You know, my son crawls in the bed and he cuddles with me. Beautiful. And you're like, man, you were going to be a man and you will outgrow this.

Oh, I have a song. The last song on the album called My Boy, I'll play before you. The album is this like weird this, the way I feel right now. I'm talking about my son. It's this weird fight and this love. and this pressure and this like thing that we need to change this and make this better and blah blah blah it's like that fight is the entire album yeah my oldest my oldest son is such a sweet boy i can't believe how kindy is the people and like shocks me it's a good kid if if your children

want to pursue music do you support them in that i've taken the stance and i don't know if the kid psychology bloggers are going to whatever the fuck podcast whatever but I've taken the stance of I'm going to hang out until I judge something that lights them up and then I'm just going to pour gasoline on that. If my son I don't really like like baseball. I've never been like a baseball I like going to the games, getting a hot dog with my dad and shit but

I don't like playing baseball I don't the sport doesn't whatever man it's like if my son's could get into basketball I'd be elated but I don't want to program anything I just want to see what God's hand planned for their life and then like have the wherewithal and the wisdom to understand that for them to be in their purpose. So my thing is like I'll just let them find their purpose to some degree. Also help them and guide them and give them tools to help find their purpose. You can introduce them to things.

Exactly. But no, if he wants to be a musician and I can tell that that lights his purpose up and that makes him happy to do that, absolutely. If you were talking to younger you, how would you approach your career? and your life now. Like, how would you, like, what would you be doing differently now than you did throughout this? You've had such a unique journey. I know, like, where, you know, you just have had a unique journey as a songwriter, as an artist.

What do you tell younger John Bellion who's never released music in 2025? What's the advice you give that kid? You're doing a great job. Because that's all he needs to hear. Yeah. I know that's not No I mean how bad do you want to go back to that first session that we had at Steve Finfer's house and be like

Guys You don't understand what's about to happen to both your careers Y'all are fine Yeah you guys are okay Yeah yeah Just do what you're doing Yeah You'll be okay

Most people just need to be told that they're doing a great job I think I think the older I get as a someone who now has a publishing company and has writers under him and produces under him and blah blah most of these arguments most of these things most of these ego trips most of these crash outs most of the i want the person myself included it's just from a lack of once in a while you'd be shocked of just being like dude you're doing a great job i just want to remind you you're doing a great job i think that's what we're all like really just dying to be told um you have we're going to go to the to the last

to the last thing. I'm going to just list five things and I'm I'm just sort of curious what like what you have to say about him. Let's start with your wife. It's always disappointing when I come here when it's over. I feel like I can keep going man. You just have a

life. I mean I guess so are I. I feel out for this shit and for you man. I love it. So then stay. Whatever other whatever you got man. You know But let's talk about, but yeah, let's go with that. I just want to hear, you know, these names have sort of changed since the last conversation.

I mean, your wife was not. She was there. But let's start with your wife. Yeah. What comes off the top of your head? Consistent. Anchor, consistent. She's just wildly consistent.

She's not swayed in different directions. She's steadfast. She tethers. And this is just like a. tethered to reality that I would never have without. I'd be, I'd be, you don't, I don't even know that I'd be. Yeah. Your oldest son.

He's a sweet boy. Your second son. He's, he's a, he marches to the beat of his own drone. He's, he's, yeah. It's so crazy that he's a funny guy. You can tell really quick that all these people are just different. Quick. When you're apart.

Yeah. And I'm like two different people that you'd think they were raised. into their houses. It's crazy. Baby boy. Pleasant. The first two guys were military torture. Crying and crying and crying all night. This new guy, his third guy, he's like, just happy to be here.

He sleeps at night. He's so amazing. I'd have six kids. I'd have ten kids if they could all be what my third guy is. Are you going to tap out after three or are you going to go for six or ten? We're a hundred percent tapping out. out four, I don't care what. Yeah. There's not. Before my, four will, could happen.

Yeah, yeah. Four is a possibility. Three is fun. I'm just speaking frankly as a dad. Again, don't come after me. The baby stage is just not for me. My sons are all blast. Once they cross that two year mark, my sons are all blast now.

Going to the trampoline park and shit, just like doing dumb shit with like my friends almost. Like my sons are just like these guys that I just like love being around. because they're just like great kids in general outside of me like they're just like great sweet little boys so i'm just like oh this is amazing i get to like be with you and you discover this whole thing when my sons were first born i was like man this is my lot in life like it's just this like thankless screaming shit wiping non-sleep experience of craziness it's so intense because i also i didn't realize how much i valued my thought my train of thought when i didn't have kids my train of thought i could go out into this world of thinking about all this extravagant gold chasing and when you

have a kid, like the thing's streaming directly in front of you. Yeah. So it's like, but I, yeah, for sure, it, it, for all the, the fathers out there, it gets fun. Okay. I mean, I've got a few more things. Like, part of this podcast and the point of it, we talked about in the last one was that I want, you know, it used to be like, I want the industry to be able to look back and see how these songwriters are living currently, you know, and they're talking about their life currently. But in the spirit of this conversation, I want it so that your son's, and look back and be like, wow, that's my dad. Oh, wow.

What are three decisions that changed your life? Three of the decisions that changed my life. Admitting that I'm not strong enough to do life on my own. Having the courage to apologize when I'm completely wrong. That one was a good one for me. Has unlocked a lot of chill in me. Trusting in the things that, trusting in the things that, trusting in the things that God said is good for me, even when they don't feel, they don't feel

good, exciting, or anything in the moment. I think those are probably the larger. I look back and I'm like, wow, thank God I kept fighting for X a marriage or fighting for presence with my children, even though I just got off a flight. And I've sacrificed five days worth of sessions to make sure I'm coming home to see my kids and the second I get home, a two-year-old says, well, I want mommy to put me to bed. And your ego says, I sacrificed all this for you. And it's like, blessed is the quiver. Blessed is a man with many children. Like, blessed is a man. Like, you know what I mean? Like, like being present with your kids and having kids that understand that you are present, whether they're in a good mood or a bad mood, your job is to like be their anchor and they can feel how

they feel. They're not too big or too small for the room. You know, like, like all those things that when you do those consistently, it really pays dividends down the road. Because no matter what happens in business or what happens in whatever, you have like certain anchors that are there where you look back and say, wow, thank God, I was steadfast when it was hard.

And thank God, I was, thank God. Thank God. Thank you. Like, oh, wow. Whoa, like that's real. Like, oh, wow. You can't see the forest through the trees sometimes. And honestly, that applies to song right. Because this is the podcast that we're on.

It's like, you can't see the forest through the trees sometimes. You got to keep going. One thing that I think is important to acknowledge before we're done that is so amazing is how you've been very verbal about giving points to songwriters that you're working with. Yeah. Yeah, we're feeding. We gave songwriters points on this album coming out. Why?

because I'd be, it's crazy. You definitely learn more about the business end when you have to stay true to the point that you're giving as the label that's funding everything or the guy who's paying for all of it himself and giving away it to free 48 hours advance to the fans, sacrificing the numbers and stuff to deliver to the fans, you recognize that you have, as a business,

you have to stand behind the points and they have to get paid out before I get paid my money back that I shelled out to do the whole album, blah, blah, blah, which then gives me a little more grace on the label side but it's just like all right we just can't have like the shiniest car in the video in order to make sure that the writers get points which is that's the point i'm realizing it's like the CEO just might need a fucking smaller house like we all just might need to just chill instead of 62 floors in the sony building in the city it might need to be 30 and motherfuckers can get paid like that that's another thing i'm realizing it's not the labels don't have to die i think they just have to be like the federal government talking to live nation they just need to be everyone just need to be everyone just just needs to be put into some sort of check. So as far as the writers are getting points and stuff, it's like, yeah, if I don't make any money on the album, da-da-da-da-da, at least I can hang my head high and say that, like,

the writer that has never gotten a point maybe ever in their career, a new guy, like, an Elijah Null or someone that, like, worked on the album with me, the fact that he got a point on the album will maybe inform him to be like, John gave me one. Why can't you? Ron Berry, John Janick, uh, uh, yeah, Wendy Goldstone. Like, why can't you eat? It's like, well, we only have 20 on our side and the RSSS is this. Like, John did it.

And he lost money. It's like, well, we have to at least start there. Because once you start losing money, you'll think of new ways to still make your money while doing the industry standard. So, yeah, I kind of forced the situation. And right now I'd rather lose the money to figure out how I can make the money while still taking care of the writers. So I could figure out a thing to maybe have a conversation with Ron or John or one of those guys to be like, well, when I was doing it, I found that this, this, this, this and this and this was able to pay my bottom end on paying for the videos to deliver for the fans, I was able to still pay for the right, but you kind of have to trip and fall into it

until it happens. So right now I'm giving points to writers on the album. For those who didn't listen to the first interview we did and who don't know our history, one of the classiest moments that I've ever experienced in the music business, I talked about on that, which was that I came in 80s films something you had just worked down with Buzzbee Avi Shalom missed that guy Oh man

Buzz is a good dude He was alive when we did our last interview Like that's how much like six years Buzz Buzz was a prolific Prolific songwriter You guys had worked on a song And I said I think you should go over here And maybe this section should go here

Do something like that And then the next time I hear Is from Capital being like John insists that you get like additional production and a fee. Yeah. Yo man, I give advice to a lot of people and I don't expect anything.

That's what makes it classy. Oh, man. That's what makes you classy. Those writers don't have to, like one of the comments I've gotten from, one of the comments that, Like, I guess I feel like a lot of people just assume from the label side that if we start giving points to writers, it won't be enough points. If we do all this other stuff, that's like, so it's better to not do anything than to do a little bit.

Yeah. And that kind of thing is just so important. Totally. And it's just you. It just makes me happy. So you're doing a good, like, you know, people need to hear it. You're doing a good job. Wow. Thank you.

All right, a few more things, and then I'm going to let you go. Sure. Like, our listeners love hearing stories about big songs. They just do. Because who doesn't? I love that. So let me just list a few of these big songs, and I just want to hear something memorable about it. Yeah.

Ghost. Oh, man. That was, like, the most therapeutic admission, like, from my younger self that I miss my grandmother a lot. Wow. Yeah. That was like full-blown therapy session, listening back to it. Yeah, that was like the, that was one of the more, I don't, some people would be like, oh, music's like, it heals me and it definitely does.

But that was like the one of the most healing, like, records I've ever written just out loud being like, Grandma, I miss you. Holy. Oh, man. Good, good, a friend of mine. I won't say the producer, because it's jokes and I don't care. But I heard through the great vine that a big producer. had heard the song from somebody.

And before it got cut, before Justin took it and Chance jumped on it and all that, that goodness. But they were just like, I run into the altar, like a track star, like, stupid, never going to work. Like, that's not even a hit. And it was. So that I just know, like, no matter how many hits somebody has or whatever, if my gut says that, like, this could be a big song or I see a vision for it, that was a good reminder of, like, even your friends, even your heroes, even your people could be like, this sucks. And it's like, if you don't think it sucks, then it's, they're not wrong. right it's just you know so it's just like if you believe something is like no this is a smash bro like in my head sometimes i'm like i'll be like oh wow you don't like it or you think this is

gonna hit if in the back my mind i'm like it's not how i felt what i was making it that goose bump thing thing i can't i can't be like all right goosebumps i'm inspired so when that does happen you have some sort of a boop something's here and you got to kind of go into the great beyond and fight and fist fight metaphorically for that thing you felt because only you and the writer when you're writing it you know there'll be moments where the thing you're hits and the pre goes into the hook and the hook hits the thing and you're all listening back and you're like but then you go out into the world and all these other forces come into play where all these labels are like is anybody signed to us is anybody in that crew da da da da and then you get the email back from

the guy who tells you this is not good enough but the real subtitle is none of you are signed to us this isn't profitable for us and we're not going to be able to bank off what you made because they don't give a fuck about the song they give a fuck about making more money for their shit so just like just if you get the goosebumps when you're making it go out into the world and that's your sword. Fuck you. I got the goosebumps. Fuck you.

This is a hit. I got the goosebumps. Fuck you. The longer you can hold on to that feeling that you had and football it across the finish line. If you run that race, you'll get to the finish line before a huge artist. And you go, I made this thing six months ago. And you finally pass it off before you fucking die at the finish line.

And the artist takes it. And it's like the ring got thrown in the fire in the volcano. Like you made it. You did the thing, you know. When someone has an. opinion there's an opposite side. That's what you learn in debate class. It's like you should learn the opposite side of the debate. I only talk to people in the studio that vehemently hate my opinion about something. I'm like, ooh, let's go. Yeah, that could be wrong about something and I want to learn.

And yeah, yeah, for sure. I played like, I played a song that is 12 years old in a meeting the other day. You know, they don't know that. No. But it's so good. And I, and we've had other people cut it. The song is a hit. Yeah. I know it's a hit. Yeah. Has it come out. yet and it's not a it's not a hit yet but like i have there are very few songs that i feel that way about yes but i know this song is special straight up full stop full stop i've had so i bro i've had songs that got cut seven years after i wrote the song yeah yeah and once i had my first hit motherfuckers were coming out the woodworks talking about that song you wrote three years ago is a great one yeah i can't believe that one brushed by my desk it's like okay you you know what you

know and no one can tell you any different because nobody's you know you know I'll tell you this, songwriters and producers, myself included, nobody knows shit. Nobody knows dick about dick. Everyone at the Grammys is like, I knew when we first signed. Yeah. You don't know Dick. You don't know Dick. Nobody does.

Not a flu. Success has a million fathers. Failure has none. Nobody wants to be near it when it doesn't work. And then when it does, it's so like, we should try to do the thing that they're doing. It's like there's nothing to do. You do it your way. Whatever your balance is, whatever your homeostasis in this whole,

thing is because now success doesn't define it's not just being a superstar on the radio at the Grammys like Whitney Houston shit like that's just not success. Success now is like almost not being depressed and being an artist and like making a living. Charlie XX's album man that there's no like international smash on it as far as one song

but the album is a smash. She's just operating you can tell she's operating you're still like out of her good that's that's that's John Belly and the artist is that is like this album I believe where you're at, I'll just put it out in the universe. It's going to be, it'll have the same kind of love that, like, Brat had.

I think you're going to release this. And I think people are going to be like, like, I've always liked his shit. I always knew who to do this. It doesn't, like, people just, they'll just know. They'll just know. But, like, when you're writing for other people, you're shooting missiles. Yes. You know?

So I'm going to just go through a couple more. Yes, please. Graveyard. card. Grave was another one where another producer was and the producer's my boy. So it's okay that he'd be laughing if he heard this. He's a he knows.

He's a player. He knows. He called, we sent it to him. I sent it to him, I'm like, yo, you think this would work for like, I'm not even going to say the other artist name because then they'll know who the producer is. I was like, you think this would work for artist XX?

And he was like, nah, it's just sound like, he said it's like spooky 107. Which made me crack up. I was like, you think this would be good for ex-artist? He was like, bro, this shit's down like spooky 10. 10, 7. What are you talking about graveyard? I'll follow you to the graveyard.

He's like, no, I'm not going to give it to any of my artist. I thought it was hysterical. I'm like, this is still a smash. It ended up being a top 10 record. There you got. Dog. What about, but that's another example of like, nobody knows.

And I could have thought it was a smash and it could have came out and completely flopped. And that's happened to me a bunch of times. Like, the Duleipa Miley record, prisoner. That was a whole other production, a whole other thing. And another artist cut it. And that was Mendez cut it. The leaks, I think it's on YouTube.

Someone leaked his version of it. So it's not like news. But there's a whole different production under the one that even leaked. It was a whole other thing and blah, blah, blah. And I thought that record, I was like riding a high because I had so many number ones off the Bieber stuff and the maroon stuff. And I was like, in America, this one's going to go off. Doolope was prolific, enormous. Mylius Cyrus is prolific.

And it came in. America and I guess Molly was like coming out of her deal and going into the Ron deal and it was like iffy and the thing just fell flat in America. It was like number one in every other country, but completely wrong. And then memories, I told my wife, this thing's never going to see the light a day and the thing takes off. It's like you have no control over the way culture receives these things. So at least that's like a nice thing to think about like you can breathe because you don't know what's going to happen anyway. You can try your best. It's the only thing you got. You don't really have anything else. And your gut. By the way, the prison.

or example of, oh, here's a whole other production and a different artist and this thing. That's why the song is the song and the writers of the song are the songwriters and the people who do their production, which might have been the same producers, but those are the producers. Totally. They also be the songwriters. Yeah. But the songwriters are the songwriters and the producers are the producers. Yes.

And that's it. And everybody else get off our, get off our publishing. You want our You want our publishing Let them know You want our publishing Yes We are coming for everything of yours

If you're a label And you say we want an interpolation of this Every percent that I give you of my song I'm taking from your masters I could get up and If you're going to Come in and say I want 2% because I did drums

I want all of your drum samples I'm going to use them and give you nothing or stop stepping on our publishing. You are not a songwriter. You want to be a songwriter? Spend the 15 years of waking up every day, as my friend John Bellion said about an hour ago and struggle and learn what a melody is and a concept is

and learn what a song is and you can get publishing too someday. But you are not getting my publishing on a song when you are not a songwriter. Wow. It is just not right. And we have to, and if you're an artist and you're going to make songwriter sign an NDA, guess what that probably means to the world? And if you're going to be litigious, guess what the world should talk about.

Totally. Here's the thing that I'm going to say that I said at the, like, the Sona event, which is that if you're, when published, when, when, uh, When the news discusses the selling of a catalog from an artist who does not write songs, and we all know it, the headline needs to be $200 million of extorted publishing sold for X amount of dollars.

Wow. Or $200 million of extorted publishing just sold to this company, and the artist and manager will profit off of working songwriters. because we don't talk about it because we're afraid to discuss artists who take publishing for nothing in return. If you give me points so I can now sell my points because that's also transferable. So I can go to a fund, an IP fund and say, I'm going to sell the three points I got on this that will equal the 5% of publishing that you got from the pie. because of my altruism.

Going off right now. No, no, no, keep going. It drives me nuts because we can call it what it is. We have an opportunity in this generation to define it. And just like you as an artist can say, I'm going to give points to songwriters, and it's going to come out of my pocket. Also, if you are going to come after my publishing,

I'm now going to go and ask for more points, or I'm going to ask for some of your touring or your merch. Merch. And touring. And I'm going to have that ability to see. sell my share of that to the same IP fund that you're selling my publishing to. Yeah. Could you imagine in ownership you make a song and then metaphorically, someone who owns the whole music in an industry comes back and metaphorically says to you, yes, you'd made that

song, but we get paid off of that part of the song that you made, the master. Yeah. We get paid off of that. You don't get to, but you didn't make it. It's like, yeah, but we helped blow it up. Yeah, but I made the product. I think, I think that the, the Taylor Swift versions of albums. What do you mean? You know, she went and redid all, she's reading all these to show the value of the master. Of the master and what record companies make.

And it's been a fascinating education for the muggles. I don't know what you call. Yeah. But like it really is. You know, it's like, here's a wizard who's like, this is what I'm going to do right now. Watch this magic trick. Heracles is crazy.

That's crazy. She did the wizard thing. I almost just like don't even, like I just keep going. You're saying it in a way because I feel like you've been so proactive. A lot of the people would be having the conversations and then they'll be like, yeah, but like, then what do you do? And you're like the guy that's like, don't have that fucking conversation with me. I will go to Capitol Hill. I will have that conversation.

Yeah, yeah. I will dedicate my time. You can. This is, all right. Every songwriter who talks about how we should unionize should go on right now. and go to Sona and go to NSAI, spend $25. That's it. You've now joined the trade organizations that solely represent songwriters.

Go to NMPA and follow them on social media because those people represent publishers who only make money from songwriters. Those two things, those three entities are so valuable. And we are constantly talking about, why don't we unionize? because there are opportunities for you to join right now. Right now. For nothing. And you don't even do that.

Do it right now and build those numbers and actually say, show up to some meetings. Yep. And give your opinions and your experience. You want to get paid. Like I think we should be getting advances on mechanicals, just like producers get advances on their fees and so on and so forth. And then you can have. a point system for songwriters that recoups that fee.

So labels can justify giving that advance of mechanicals. And even that could justify some of it. Some of these things can be discussed and figured out if more people got involved. But rather than just posting, we should unionize or asking me, why don't we unionize? It's because you can't even join some of these organizations that are there. Absolutely. Join these organizations. Yep.

have an opinion, people are there to listen. I'm not talking about PROs. I'm not talking about BMI and ASCAP. I'm not talking about anything else. You as a songwriter need to join organizations with other songwriters. So it's not just the loud old people. They're like, I used to make money, but I don't now. So the industry sucks.

And it's not just the people who are like, I don't write relevant songs. So I'm mad. I'm not getting paid. Like both those things are not. Those are all part of the industry, but they're not the whole industry. clip that. Like, we need. No, that's, that disparity, that disparity is the thing,

because there's the people who don't have the hits that are trying to get the hits that don't make profitable songs. Right. But they're living through a publisher as being signed to dedicate their life to something. Yep. And then there's the opposite ends of the spectrum. And they're the guys who experience all the mechanicals from all the CD sales back in the day who don't understand why songwriters don't get paid enough anymore.

And it's like, okay, all those opinions matter. But you know who really matters are the guys who show up to studios every single day, And there are thousands of them who can't pay for their rent. Every one of those people should be joining these organizations. The $25 you were going to pay for that one drink out in Hollywood or whatever, your vices spend it to join one of these organizations. Then you can also go to Capitol Hill. Grammys on the Hill. If you're an artist, join Grammys, the organization.

not like that's RAAAA and N NPA are constantly on you know there's this no fakes act that's going on right now for for making sure people don't pillage your I I like I mean I can we could go into that as a whole other conversation I'm not yeah I don't want it right now there's there's times that I know just to listen there's your you are the person that should be having that conversation your passion in the way that you fought in over the years, while a lot of us, myself included, have taken the time to just keep going and to be like, I'm really glad Ross is doing that. Yeah.

I feel like I need to like, this is important right now for you, specifically, you as the person who's who dedicated the brand and the podcast and the helping and the niceness that you've showed me over the years and the gems that you've given me and the consistency that you've shown to me, a lot of us, and I can name myself, have reaped the benefits of you taking you taking the sacrifice out of your day to go on to Capitol Hill and to go do those things, while we were just getting taken care of of stuff that you're doing and just know that that doesn't fall short on like my brain. I don't ever think like the amount of time that I know that other songwriters, I'm like, where's Ross been? Bro, he's been fighting. He's been going

crazy over on Capitol Hill trying to get writers and trying to get this and trying to get that. Like, you talk about that shit. You, anyone wants to change anything, obviously. take it from whatever. However, whatever my cultural token goes into, whatever, take it from you. Because we've all benefited from it. And we've all benefited from it greatly. And the benefit that you've given us will only multiply 20-fold after we're all gone. So on behalf of, on behalf of myself, I can't speak for anybody but myself, but that's one of the more admirable professional things I have ever seen since I've, since I made my first beat in my basement. People ask me what's the most amazing thing that you've like seen as far as like what what's an incredible

thing i think about it all the time i love that why i want to keep coming back to this podcast forever and while if you need something you let me like that flower not from the people who haven't had a hit yet who listen in their college dorm room right now i'm not speaking for them i'm speaking for all of us that came up with you i thank you yeah yeah yeah yeah You're welcome. It's a weird thing, man. Like advocacy, the other side of advocacy. Like you win for, you celebrate, the wins are celebrated by the community.

And when you are a songwriter, the wins are celebrated by, you get celebrated. Yep. Yep. And I mean, I say a lot. There's a piece in us that's so scarce. I'm pontificating right now. There is no definitive thing that I've never thought about this. I'm speaking on the edge with you as we speak.

I think there's just like a scarcity fear. There's scarcity fear in all of us. That's somehow you've broken through that. I don't know how you are able to do that. Like in my mind, I'm like, I got to keep going. I can't. I got to like, it might not change in my lifetime. So I got to da-da-da-da-da.

But I'm realizing as we're talking that that's the mentality. that will keep us in the same exact position until you say, I'm gonna fund the shit myself, I'm gonna go talk about Live Nation, I'm gonna go do the thing, I'm gonna do it. It's like whatever comes from those clips and whatever, whatever comes from that. The plus is and minuses that come from it.

Exactly, exactly. Look, man, I think we're all just like very in our own minds too. Like, we talk about it. I've been in like 100 sessions where your name gets brought up. And everyone's like, man, he's just like taking time off of his like paying his bills to go

like fight some shit it's really hard man as we're talking right now like fuck publicly I'm not just saying is it's like that and a dollar gets you to ride the bus it doesn't fucking matter but like if you we got it we got to like we got to help it's a lot of it is putting it away

like the what needs to happen are the writers that are in your position that are willing to say I'm going to sacrifice a little bit of the success and a little bit, look, I still have songs coming out. I still do sessions. I still love writing songs because I'm still a chairmaker. Absolutely.

I don't want to change that. And I still like, by having the advocacy thing, I ended up on the NMPA board, which then allows me to build my publishing company because I understand how that world works. I'm not going to say that I didn't learn anything from the advocacy that's applicable to my, career in a financial sense.

But I do understand that the amount of time it takes. Exactly. And when you only have so much time away from your kids, if you're going to be a present dad, is going to go towards the community. And if the community succeeds, I succeed. I mean, we're in the studio house. Like, how many of those do you need to be a, am I a happier songwriter if I have what? What would the next step be?

Do you know what I mean? What else do I need? What else do I need? And I'm not saying I'm not going to, I still have a session today. I still will be writing a song today. Yep. I love it. Yep.

But I'm willing to put some of the, I'm not going to do two a days. I'm not going to do, I can't, I don't, because I would, I'd rather be a present dad who prioritizes advocacy along with being a songwriter. I don't know. Maybe there are people who don't want to work with me because I'm an advocate. And maybe there's a grip of people who want to work with me more because of it. Absolutely. And I think I'm all right with those odds.

And I'm okay that like, yeah, I just went on a whole thing about not giving publishing to a bunch of people who probably are like, well, we're not going to work with that guy. And it's like, yeah, that's okay. Yeah. I'll be all right. Yeah. There's such a duality in all of it. There's such duality.

You have to trust that like you'll be like. Yeah. I got enough shit going on. I don't, if I don't have to fight you for the. You know, dude. Yeah, I realize you, you, you're in such a, you're in such a, like a much wiser space in it all to be an advocate for us. Like, you're in such, it's like, even looking back at like the Live Nation stuff, I realized that like, you don't have to fucking blow the building up. You just got to create the stir to go out to sound like a crazy person to do the thing to at least try to have the conversation.

Yeah, yeah. And maybe it could start there and whatever. Because again, you can be a radical. And you can take that approach. I think there's viable times. There's a time to reap, a time to sew, time to live, a time to die. There's times for it all.

But the way that you've handled it has been, like I'm taking a lot of nuggets from it. Where you can be within it, you don't have to be of it. Yeah. You can be in it, but you don't have to be of it. Yeah, yeah. So that balance is super important.

It's a real balance. I'm not going to lie. Like, there's a, it's a real balance. And there are advocates who put in more time than I do. do at it and you know Michelle Lewis at Sona and Bart Herbison at NSAI obviously you know

NNPA are all publishers and David Israeli all these people like their whole job is to fight for songwriters you know I mean that's that Michelle has written a bunch of music for TV and other people that like it's not like she's not writing but these people

they do it even a level beyond and I'm not none of those like Evan Bogart and had a lot to do with getting a lot of the things that I've gotten

some credit for for the Grammys and it's like I'm not like I'm happy that I've that I have a loud voice but I'm not doing any of that shit alone it's the same thing as like any you know any the album shit it's like

bro 10 rock kid is unbelievable kid plays every single instrument kid is he's young he's light years beyond me where I was at his age. The kid is unreal. Pete Napi, unreal Sonic Development palette guy. Like, I just want to make sure that, like, I'm just keeping it in my mind. I'm always so forward-focused that I don't necessarily give the credit to the left and the right. I'm always trying to, like, move forward. But Pete Napi and Tenrock,

really, they're, they're like the bulk of most of it. Like, I had a season with OG Volta for the human condition, and Glory Sound Prep, and then the season with Monsters and Strangers and Amy, that whole thing. And now, like right now I'm in a season with the Jimins and the Junk Cooke's and the, I can't say the song that's coming out, but it's a crazy one with a great artist and the Leroy stuff or stuff that we've worked like Pete and Ten and even Rojay, like a lot of, like that they're just a mate that I am a cog and a very, very, some surrounded by a lot of people.

I want to make sure that that's like very, very well known. Michael Pollock, people that like without them, I just would not be. anywhere close to where I am. As a songwriter, producer, human, whatever. The Watt, J-Cash, like a lot of guys that have given me opportunities that when I came back to this thing, they were open doors for me. They respected my talents. They let me in.

They whatever. So I just want to make sure, as a songwriter on the podcast, I can mention, like, there's been crews that change over the years and life changes and people's accessibility when I live in New York changes when they get married and this, that, and the third. But, like, all of those people are all responsible for me. and I'm appreciative of that for sure. Okay. Second and the last question is,

what's your favorite song on the album? Is that a fair question? What is... Farrell's my hero. So the intro record is Horoscope featuring Farrell. So it's like, and that comes out Friday the day we're speaking right now. What's that tomorrow?

Next day? Tomorrow? He's just my hero. So to have him as like a vocal actual feature on it, not just producing for him to like stand next to me on this one, that means the most to me. but I think the best song on the album is a record called Father Figure. Shit is like...

They're building a... You spend all the money for the house in the hills and they're fucking buzz-sawing all day long. We got an Airbnb. I don't even know why we went up in the fucking hills and paid all that money for the Airbnb. It's ridiculous. We're all living a lie.

You pay for a piece up in the mountains and there's just dudes fucking whistling while they were going bananas. These these studios are so, these studios are so soundproof, but this room is not. Dude, every podcast, any interview I do in the hills, anything, it's like, hold on one second. Ah, her, her, her, per her, pomeranian. I'm like, who the fuck wants to live here, bro? Unreal. Unreal.

Okay, I've got a session that just got here. So I'm going to say, all I want for Christmas is to make some. more chairs. Yes, sir. I just want to make chairs. I want to make chairs with other people who make chairs that are different than the chairs I make. And be like, I like your chairs.

Your chairs are cool. I love that reference so much. Yeah. Because you have a publishing company now. You have a record company now. You write songs for a lot of people. I can relate to a lot of those things. But what I can relate to most right now is,

I'm a dad. I'm a dad. I still love making chairs. I want to show my kids that I like, I like making chairs and you can make chairs too. And if you make enough chairs, you can do the other things, but don't forget to make the chairs. Absolutely.

So I love that metaphor. Thank you for making chairs. Thank you. And thank you for fighting for the chairmakers. For real. We hope you enjoyed this episode. It was produced by me and Joe London in association with Mega House Music Group. If you like this episode, go give us a rating at wherever you listen to your podcast.

And make sure to follow us at And The Writer is on all your socials. We'll see you next week.