And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 211: BANKS | The Key to Longevity (Building Your Fanbase)

Episode Date: May 27, 2025

Today’s guest is an artist whose voice cuts through like a blade—sharp, emotional, and unforgettable. Emerging from the shadows of alternative R&B and electro-pop, she’s crafted a sonic identity that’s both intimate and cinematic. Her lyrics are deeply confessional, fearless in their vulnerability, and her production choices push boundaries while staying rooted in undeniable emotion. From viral beginnings to critical acclaim, she’s stayed true to her vision, building an aesthetic that’s dark, empowering, and always evolving. All the way from Los Angeles, California—this is the sound of raw artistry at its finest. And the writer is… BANKS!00:00 - Intro 01:07 - Growing Up in L.A. 03:52 - Music as Math? 06:16 - 100% Songs, No Concept First 08:08 - First Song Became a Jack Collab 10:04 - Social Anxiety + Going Out Hard 12:06 - Fans, Fame & Divine Feminine Energy 15:41 - Jillian vs. BANKS 18:10 - Stage Fright to Frontwoman 21:13 - Regrets & Album Titles That Got Away 22:28 - Streaming Era Beginnings 27:02 - Indie Artist Real Talk 31:12 - Viral Hits vs. Tour Culture 34:09 - “Don’t Try To Write a Hit” 36:04 - Underrated BANKS Songs 38:05 - Why This Album, Why Now 39:28 - How “I Hate Your Ex” Happened 41:24 - Voice as a Shape-Shifter 42:02 - Collaboration Energy Shift 43:03 - Studio Magic Stories 44:14 - Writing for Other Artists? 46:18 - Why Artists Look to BANKS 48:06 - 3 Life-Changing Decisions 49:40 - Five-for-Five Lightning Round 53:08 - Music + Visuals Are One 54:16 - Ross on BANKS’ Legacy Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

When are you, Jillian, and when are you banks? When I'm writing a song and I'm in something, like, there is a world that it creates, and there's colors that it creates, and there's an energy and a mood, and that's, like, the world that I want to live in. Most of your songs are 100% songs, you know? Like, you're really going through the whole pain of it all. There's a lot of rejection that comes with this business, and I think that that's a decision every single time you get rejected to keep going.

And I think, thank God I did. Welcome to And The Writer is. I am your host, Ross Golan. There are millions of singers and thousands of artists, but only 40 songs per genre at a time. This podcast aims to shed a light on those creators who make those songs. I produce this with my friend Joe London, in association with Mega House music group. Special shout out, Charlotte Isidore, Jad, and Michael White. And you can follow us at And The Writer is.

on all your socials. We'll see you there. Now, this week's episode. Welcome to And The Writer is. I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's true artiste is a fearless force in the alternative R&B and Electropop scenes. She's built a world that's haunting, hypnotic,

and unmistakably her own with raw soul-bearing lyrics, an atmospheric production that pulls you right into her orbit. She's not just telling stories. She's casting spells. All the way from Seattle, Washington. No, we can't say that. All the way from Los Angeles, California.

This songwriter continues to evolve, challenging every expectation along the way. And the writer is Banks. What an intro. Slow clap for that. Hi. Hi, what's going on? Okay, so tell me some stories. It's like where were you born?

Okay. I was born in Orange County. Uh-huh. And I think I came to L.A. when I was like less than one, negative one. So you, growing up, so you were like, I mean, that's serious L.A. Yeah, I grew up in L.A. But when I think of Orange County, it's a pretty conservative place. Yeah, I think my dad, who is a neonatologist, he's retired now, but he was like,

doing his residency. I don't really know much about how that, the cycles of, but he was at the beginning of, you know, his career. So I think he was working at a hospital there. But then, yeah, we moved to the valley. I grew up in the valley. Kind of close to where we are now, actually.

What, that's like the least creative-sounding occupation for your father? Neonatologist. Yeah, like, I'm sure that there's some creativity task for, but you're so. not really making music with it. No, no one in my family. My grandparents, his mom is a painter. Okay.

My dad loves music and is so curious and interesting and soulful. What kind of music? Oh, my God. Growing up, he would be playing James Taylor, Deadkin Dance. He loved. crash-dressed dummies he would always play obsessed yeah yeah I'm at once there was a girl we need more we need more baritans um what about your mom my mom she's a cutie she's not as creative I would say but she's very soulful and she's very sensitive soul um but she loves music and she's she's very

smart. She's an accountant. She's good with numbers and stuff, the opposite of me. I think of music as being really mathematical. Yeah. Well, no, but once you find, if you are a songwriter and you have like a certain way of writing songs, it becomes a little bit like math. But I wouldn't say so in the sense of like there's a solution to ever, like you know what the solution's going to be. I would more think of it like there are steps to take maybe to help yourself feel like you're in an organized creative space. Because I think that when you're first starting out and you don't really have a way of doing things, it can feel a little all over the place. And so for me, like when I'm writing music, I have like a system now where with melodies, I'll like, I use Ableton. it'll be like color coding or like riffing for a long time and then separating what I think could be a verse or what I think it.

I mean, it depends. If I'm writing, if I'm writing on the piano, it's more like I'm working on something and I'm like, oh, this could be a good chorus and then I'll work around it or this is a verse and I'll go where does the pre-chorus go. But yeah, I think in that way it can be like math, like where there are like steps to forming something. But yeah, solution-based math. I don't know because anytime. But some songwriters are like that. Like one of my first sessions I walked in, I think it was with Kid Harpoon. I mean, he's brilliant.

And Dave Setech. And they work together a lot, I think. I don't know. But yeah, my very, very, very first session. And he said, what do you want to write about? And I was so nervous. So I didn't like walk in and I say, no, that's not how I do things. I was like, I'm not sure.

Because for me, it's very stream of consciousness. and the concept is usually like discovered throughout the process or even at the end you look back at the lyrics and you're like oh that's exactly what I wanted to say has your process changed over time yeah once I learned how to produce it changed but what about what you know this is one of things that that's really enjoyable about you know there aren't a lot of uh most of your songs are 100% songs you know like yeah really going through the whole process yeah the pain of it all, you know, but sometimes like the, if you're not starting from a concept on what you want to write about, where are you starting?

A mood and a melody. No, I would say a chord progression always comes first. And like, whatever that chord progression. Every time I've ever walked in a studio and they're like, what do you want to write? And I'm like, I want to write like a ballad. Like it turns into like this like sexy, like slutty, like grinding type of song. And then if I'm ever like, I want to write like an upbeat. like vibe. It turns into like the saddest ballad. So I don't, I just gave up on like trying to do that.

Um, yeah, it usually starts with a chord progression and then a melody on top of that. Some syllables with the melody and then those syllables. Oh, sorry. They inform the lyric. Yeah. But when you, when, when I, I always talk about framing a title and how important it is Yeah. To be able to walk away singing the title of the song. And one thing. Singing the title of the song. Interesting.

Or at least somewhere knowing that this is the song that, like, oh, yeah, I love that bank song. What's it called? Oh, right. It's, and one of the things you do is you tend to define. By like a lyric. Yeah. Like, even if you're going through concept last or title last.

Yeah. You're somehow really still editing your way to that same place. Yeah. When, you know, when did you start, when, you know, listening to music growing up, when did you start thinking, oh, I could actually craft a song? I think I was probably like 15. Okay. It started with like writing, like kind of stream of consciousness writing. Right.

Teen angst. And then. What was your first song called? I think Come With Me How did it go? Do you know what? This is actually crazy. I wrote a song with Jack Antonoff called Crowded Places.

It's really cool. It was actually on like the closing season finale episode of Girls, which is like an honor because that shows just iconic. But the chorus goes, Come with me, I'll take you home. And that was my very first song. It was just three chords that... Like,

na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na. So I took like a little bit of that. So that song is so special in that way. I'll never forget that. But the first two lines of the song, the very first song I ever wrote on the piano was come with me. I'll take you home. And that's in that song.

Who are you singing that to? Probably somebody that didn't exist, that I wished existed. Yeah. When you listen to that song, are you 15? The Crowded Places song. Yeah? Or are you now? No.

I think I'm, I don't know, I'm younger for sure. That song is about like social anxiety and rather, you know, wanting to be a little. with your person rather than out with a lot of people. Do you still feel that way? Sometimes, not as much, but I'm definitely a home body. Like, I've never been like, if I go out, I'll go out hard, but I'm not, like, going out all the time. I go out hard, no? I'm going crazy.

That's definitely how I would define you. No, no, no. But I just mean, like, I'll have fun when I do. go out. I'm not like thinking like, oh, I want to go home. I go out hard. Yeah, yeah. Got it. Like Polly D's doing. But no, I'll have fun when I go out. And I and I love being around people that I love and my friends and stuff. And I'm quite outgoing with people I'm comfortable with. But yeah, I'm not, I'm definitely the type of person who gets my energy from like replenishing when I'm solo. much of that is due to, I know your parents were divorced when you were, um...

They got separated when I was like 17, I think. 16 maybe. How much of that informs your desire to either stay home or go out or does it have, is it totally separate? No, I mean, during that time, I was like a fucking depressive, like just digesting all these negative, angry, resentful vibes. So during that time, it affected me for sure. But no, now it's just I am who I am.

And yeah, but I love, I mean, like, I love celebrating, like, at the end of a tour or, like, a special night. Like, I'm thinking this next door that I'm about to go on in June, I'm like, I feel like we should have, like, the first show. We should have an after party or something. Like, I'm thinking about stuff like that. And when I say after party, I just mean, like, going to a bar with a bunch of friends and enjoy. and celebrating. I don't mean like a club. Yeah.

But yeah, I think I. But some of that, that is like when you started off in the music industry versus now. Yeah. When I started off. Which isn't even that long ago, but there's a huge difference now. It's like this feeling like you can party with the rock star that you went and saw. Yeah. Something that is really new.

Yeah. You know, for years it was always like these people are. unattainable. That's what, you know, versus like... Oh, you mean like with social media and stuff? I mean, social media or anything, but the idea of even an after party existing where like the artist doesn't disappear into the ether and then show up on stage the next night. You know, it's like, no, I'm going to be part of the journey with you.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, do you feel... Do you feel that connected to your fan base? Yeah. Oh, my God. So much so. I love them.

I'm just so connected to them because I feel like my music is pretty, I mean, there's layers. There are some really fun songs that could be like feeling light. There's some songs that are really like guttural and like deep and graphic. And I just, I feel like the people who connect to my music who like really love it and embrace it, I feel like we're similar people because whether whatever you look like, whatever gender are you. are, wherever you're from, whatever, anything, you know, it's just the soul is really who you are. It's not all the, like, we're just like walking souls covered in, like, costumes of organs. So I think that the people, you know, who connect to my music because it's so real and deep to me,

it's so, you know, meaningful to me, those people I feel really connected to. And I'm so lucky. Like, I feel like when I do, you know, if I'm like at the market and someone like comes up to me, they're usually like, oh my God, Banks, like, I love, I love your music. Like you helped me through this time. Like it's, and I usually like hug them. And I'm usually, you know what I mean? I mean, not always. If it's like after show and there's like a lot of people like. But I just mean, I don't, I don't feel like, well, I guess sometimes I feel like that. So never mind. I'll just not say. I was going to say. Wow. What were you going to say? I was going to say, I feel like sometimes if you're like a product, if you could be kind of like objectified by people, not because they're bad people, but because like you are this like package.

And like when people meet you, you're not really a human. They're like, oh my God. Like in this like idolization. Yes. And I feel like, um, although people. people when they meet me in real life are like, wow, you're so nice and you're so like soft spoken or you're so sweet because my, when I'm banks and when I'm on stage, it's very, it is kind of like deity energy. It's very like goddess, divine feminine. It's like who, you know,

what's inside me that gives me strength when I, what I pull from. But I think because my music is so human maybe when I do run into fans or people, you know, who connect with it, it feels very, just like talking to someone who just like appreciates what you do and has and it's a really good connection there. It's not really like this. It's like this, you know? When are you Jillian and when are you Banks? That's an interesting question because Banks is me and Jillian is me. But I think that when my career first started, I felt very like the two were disconnected because I felt like, I don't know. I think because there's such an atmosphere in my music and in my visuals, people maybe

did view me like how I was talking about, which is like larger than life or like some people would be like when I think of you, I would imagine you like either like chain smoking in the back telling people to fuck off if they tried talking to you or like sitting on like a throne like very like ethereal wearing like all black. or something. And that is like the image I felt you can't nobody is. Like that's not like a person. That's like I could tap into that. And when I'm on stage, I'll tap into that. But, you know, just living my life. I felt kind of confused like if that's at what I'm supposed to be. I would meet people and they'd be like, oh, you're so normal. I kind of hate when people say that.

Why? Because I'm just like, well, I know it's a compliment. But I don't really know what that means because I'm like I guess it makes me feel like am I supposed to not be like is our other people who are doing what I do who have like public recognition are they not normal am I weird that I'm that I haven't gotten affected by it like I don't know I never I think maybe part of it might be that I grew up in L.A. and that like I'm not really phased by fame like that's not what I I don't really necessarily think it's like so cool. How much did proximity inform your career? You know what?

Like being in L.A. is helpful. Being in the middle of, you know, nowhere would be much harder. I didn't have like parents in the music business. I never, I was always, like the first like bunch of, years of writing. I didn't really tell anyone that I was doing it. Why? I don't know. I didn't feel... You're saying like when you were 17 or when you were in college at this point? Both. Well, when I was in college, I had stage, right? And so I needed to like get over that.

So I would like go to open mics all the time and like make myself face the... I used to stand backwards. And I couldn't sing. Like if I, like, if I tried to sing, just like, not... Like, I couldn't. Like, I would have a terrible voice. like if I was in front of people. Why would someone with stage fright feel like they need to be on stage? Because what I was writing, I felt so... It's a weird question. It's like, why do introverts love being on stage?

That's a fair question too. Why do introverts like to be on stage? I think that with music when you write something, it's got like this message and it's so human. Like the best songs are like songs that you're. you can connect to that feels so human. And I do feel like when I write really special songs, I want them to be heard. I want them to touch people. It feels so good to have my music touch people. And that is like a deep fire in my belly. So and also like music kind of feels like

this magical world that you can like create whoever you want to be. You could be whoever you want to be. You could get out anything you want to get. it out. And I think the world needs that. And so it's nice to be a vessel for that. It's nice to like be somebody who, you know, if there's somebody else who can't express that, I can. I'm so expressive. And so I'm that vessel that maybe someone else can like feel through. And that is an honor. And I feel like I want to share that. I had a friend who said, you know, she would come and see me perform in my band days. And it was like, if this or any other place on the planet and if you didn't speak English, you would be like, oh, this person is a, this person is a priest or this person is a rabbi.

You know, the idea of you have a microphone, you're saying something and asking for some reciprocation. And some of these people in the crowd are even crying. Yeah. You know, this conversation this one person is having with many is a religious experience. Yeah. It makes sense going back two steps that people would think of you as a vassal in that way and that you are larger than life. And all my not as much now. Yeah, I think this is the first album, which is funny because it's the most integrated.

I feel like that question Jillian and Banks has ever been. And it's maybe the first album I haven't that the title is not something that comes from like. mythology or goddess or, you know, like my first album is named goddess. My second is the altar. Right. My third is three, which I wanted to call it generations of women from the moon. And that's truly like one of my biggest regrets as an artist. If I could think of like one thing that I...

But I don't want to say regret because I learned so much from it. Because at the time I remember I sent a bunch of ideas for album titles. to my manager at the time. And they were out there, some of them, and some of them, you know. And the response was just L-O-L. Oh. And I think that just like shut. That's when you should have done it.

I know. I know. It's like, okay. But then I wrote a poetry book and I named it Generations of Women from the Moon. But for me, three is also named Generations of Women from the Moon in my heart. I love that. But then the fourth one, Serpentina, which is, I, although it's a word, a name I made up, it's still feels like not very of this earth.

And then this one off with her head is the most of this earth you could get. When, you know, you come up in the industry in a really interesting time because your first album is, let's say, 2013, right? 2014. You know, it's like there's. just what's happening in the business at the time is like there's streaming starts to become part. Yeah, I remember. It was like a real switch. It was like 2012, 13, you still would have albums that sold 4 million hard copies.

And then like the streaming site was like, what was that illegal one? Like lime wire? Yeah. And then you'd get emails that were like you're going to get sued for everything you have if you don't delete your eye. library, even though, like, no one would know if you deleted it or not because it was just like on your computer and I'd be like, delete, delete, delete. I would be like, I'm going to go to jail. Well, anecdotally, though, I also went to USC and I was there the year that USC sued Napster.

Oh. And it was the beginning of, well, this will date myself, but 1999, 2000, 2001. That response that I just gave you. Well, what was weird was this was like, so like, you are old. Yeah, you are old as shit. Wait, do you see me try to walk off this? You're in another century. You were in college already.

Well, this is, well, okay, we don't. The difference between me and my sister is four years older is that she went to college and there wasn't internet. Yeah, that's pretty historic. And when I went there, there was Ethernet. Yeah. So you could at least plug, get like generally what would be now, now. a slow internet, but fast at the time. Yeah.

And I remember we had these, all of our professors were teaching for, I was a music major, and all of them were teaching that like, oh, no one will use pro tools. It just doesn't sound as good. So my first, like, my first major label album was recorded on tape. And then even 15 years later, my next major label album was recorded on tape. And now if anything's recorded on tape, they're like, yo, like this is crazy. It's on tape. It's special.

You have to be, you have to be rehearsed. Yeah. Yeah. But I just remember that, like, we all had reason on our, which was like before Pro Tools. It was like, yeah. But the USC sued Napster, and I believe there were students that were fined as part of that. Wow. Because if you were a hub for distributing pirated music, then they literally went after these students.

Wait. Napster sued USC or USC? USC sued Napster. Why? Because NAPS, because somehow, NMPA is the premier organization for music publishers and their songwriter partners. It's their mission to increase the value of music, and that's exactly what they do. NMPA is working right now to raise royalty rates for songwriters from streaming services,

radio, social media, and everywhere music is essentially. From the courts to Congress, NMPA works to get songwriters what they deserve. I know because I've served on the board before, and I'm the current co-chair, along with Ryan Teter and Liz Rose, for the Golden Platinum Club. So again, thank you NMPA for supporting and the writer is and songwriters everywhere. I don't know, I'd have to put it in chat. Yeah, I don't get it. It would make more sense of you if Napster sued USC for being like a hub of all these students.

No, no, no, no. Everyone was suing that because they became like I think the RAA AAWA was threatening to sue the hubs. So like that became like USC and the students around there. So USC then sued NAPS right. It had something to do with RAA. Wow. That's deep.

It's deep. But I think the point was that it was like there was a point that that was like there was a point. That was a point when the music industry was really like, oh, we're in deep shit. And like you kind of join at an incredible time because I feel like being involved where your first albums are streamed. Like maybe you sold some CDs in the beginning, but it must have been mostly streaming. Yeah. And like the industry, there are a handful of artists that got in at just the right years. And I feel like that was really helpful.

Did you feel like you were, you know, breaking new ground in 2014, even just like industry-wise? Yeah, I think so, for sure. And I feel like music-wise, for sure as well. Like, goddess felt like a transition of sorts. As you're really your own label. Mm-hmm. your own publisher or do you have a publisher? No, I have a publisher.

Coal. Oh, Coal. Well, even that's some form of it. Yeah. But you own, you, I run my everything on my own. Yeah. Whenever you talk to up-and-coming artists about how would you pursue the industry, if you were an up-and-coming artist, would you advise them do the same that you're currently doing?

I don't know. Honestly, it's really hard. It's tough. It's tough being independent. There's, you know, everything is out of pocket. Like, I don't have the same money for visual, not even close, for visuals or anything like that, like I did when I was signed to Capitol Records. But at the same time, you own all your masters, you make all your own decisions. I would say, like, it really depends. I think that like if I was more, maybe a little bit more like of a dreamer and naive, I might be like, yeah, be independent, period. But I do think sometimes it is nice to have that backing at the beginning of a career of like guidance and money. I mean, that's really like these days, that's really all labels. If you're an artist, artist and you have your own ideas and your own, you know, vision, I think a major label helps the most financially. If once you've established yourself, I think it's maybe a little bit easier to be independent because you don't have to hustle as hard.

I mean, I hustle hard, always. I'm a fucking hustler, okay? But people, you know, it's a similar thing to where you were like, it's cool, you can live in Seattle now. Because at the beginning of my career, I probably, you know, I always felt tied like I needed to be in L.A. Or somewhere like L.A. or New York or London because it's like that's where everything's happening and you can't miss one opportunity. But I think once you're more established, it's now I can maybe dip in and out with the things that I want to do. So you don't have FOMO by not being here? No, because I'm also here all the time whenever I want to be.

Yeah, it's not that far away. No, it's like a two-hour flight to Burbank Airport. But with, I think if you're an independent artist and you're an unknown, I think it's probably really hard to get things rolling. Honestly, it's great. It's the Wild West, this business, and it's constantly changing. And sometimes I'm like, damn, I've been in this for a minute now, and I still don't really have an answer to these types of questions.

It's tough. I mean, there's pros and cons to both. I mean, it's if you're independent and you, you know, and things starts bubbling, because also in this business, you always need a little bit of luck. There's so much talent in the world. And it's so heartbreaking that, like, Van Gogh never knew he was successful. Right. you know so and that's a different that's a question of legacy versus like in action like

right but there's probably so many talented people who just haven't had that little bit of luck that has like helped push there you know where you feel like the universe is like flowing with you um but yeah i think there's pros and cons but if you're if you're if you're a new artist and and but then you have to be careful because Because if you have like one song these days, like on TikTok, if like if it goes viral or something, probably every label is going to want to sign you for that one song. And they're going to like push the shit out of that song and get all the money that they can. And then the second that you release a song that doesn't do well, they'll drop you, which is why it's really important to build a fan base and be for me like an album artist is so much more important than having singles. An album artist who can sell out shows who can go on tour.

You know, there's like artists who are on the radio who have a big hit, but they couldn't sell out this, you know, a 50, 100 person room. But then there are artists that maybe their streaming isn't insane. And I would probably qualify myself as one of those artists. I'm like an album artist and I don't have like crazy hits, but I have, I can tour. I play beautiful venues and have sold out shows. You know what I mean? Even though my streaming might not look like. Well, I mean, there aren't, you know, you have over 2 million monthly listeners.

So it's not like no listeners, but that. No, of course, of course. Do you feel like? I just mean like there are those artists that have like 40 million monthly listeners. Yeah. And I don't think some of them can sell out shows. That's accurate. And we can, and not just because they have once, they may even have 10 songs that people know and they still don't really, they haven't connected that they're artists.

Yeah. They connect them as like a vessel for good songs. Yeah. And I think there's being an artist and being, you know, a touring artist, like it's like a culture that you're establishing too. There's, it's the music. It's like the energy. It's a whole world that you're creating. And I think that's when people connect to you as a person.

And that's different than just like one song, you know? How does an album artist promote an album without aiming for radio singles? Well, I don't think you can aim for radio singles. You either just something half. Either you're, that's the type of art. Say that question again. I want to. How do you promote an album?

Okay. without a lead single. Well, you always choose a lead single. You always like first choose a song that comes out first. I feel like is the goal of a lead single for you to announce that you have an album coming or is the goal of a lead single to try to have a hit? Trying to have a hit is like I don't think anyone should put out music trying to have a hit even though everyone probably wants to.

That's just like the death of success in my head. It's like belittling whatever listeners you do have. It's like, especially in like the music where it is now, where the culture is within this industry, it's like it's kind of a, it's like numbers, numbers, numbers, quantity over quality. Like, so, and again, put it, you can't try and write a hit. It just happens. If it happens, it happens, you know? Like, and for me, what do I think is a hit?

Like, yeah, you could think a hit is like, obviously a hit is like, you know, someone that I used to know, Gautier and Kimbra. That was a fucking hit, you know? But also, like songs, like, for me, like waiting game feels special like that, you know, songs that didn't really play on the radio but have... It was still a gold record. It might be a platinum record now. But like, you know, that's a big song.

Like, you've experienced songs that have charted along the way. Do those feel more successful than songs that didn't chart? Honestly, yeah. And it makes me upset, though. It's not... Like, I... There are so many songs that I'm like that are so special that I don't feel like... Got the love they deserve.

What songs should people listen to if they want to know who Banks is? Oh, fuck. I love Sazol on three. Why? Because it's interesting and tender and the instrumentation is really unique and, and, I don't know. I don't really, sometimes you just don't know, you just like it. This is what it feels like from Goddess. Why?

Because I love that, like, gritty bass and just the melody and, again, just the atmosphere within it. And it's on, I mean, it's hard. That's a hard question. Honestly, any song I've ever released, other than the big hits, not big hits, other than the ones that we're referring to that, like, maybe charted higher than the others, like, I think they all deserve more than they have. Sure. It's hard. The best thing I've ever done as a musician is the album I date called The Romain. It's the concept album that is now the show in New York. But that concept album is the best thing I've ever written. And it has like in total, I bet there's like 2,000 monthly listeners and there's probably a million streams for the entire.

album kind of thing. And I have billion streamed songs, you know? Like, I have multiple of those. And the best thing I've done is something that I just know that like when, like the, like the whatever, I don't want to say like true fans. Like, because there's not any. But the idea of like the, that anybody will take the time to listen to a whole album that tells a story.

Yeah. Like, they always will have a special place. And even for me, I can always listen back and be like, I'm proud of that art that I put out. When releasing a new album now, how much of that is to justify touring, how much of it is to promote a new album? When we're releasing an album? Like the one that you're just that's... So you're saying like why release it? Is it?

Yeah, like why right now, why this album right now? You said it's the most Jillian, most banks album. I'm the most me I've ever been because I'm the oldest I've ever been. And I'm the youngest I'll ever be moving forward. But like, I just think the more you grow, the more you become integrated with all the parts of yourself. And that's what I mean. I mean, like they're all, they were all the most me at the time that I've ever done. And I don't look at songs that I wrote when I was, you know, younger to now and think like the ones I right now are better at all.

I think that they're all, that's like, uh, like reviews. Like you can't review art. Like it's like totally subjective. So I don't know. You had, I hate your ex-girlfriend with Dochi. Like incredible timing for two, like, iconic artists to like meet up. Um, how did, how did that happen? Uh, well, I wrote.

I hate your ex and it had two verses and I just wanted another girl on it. I wanted like a bad bitch on it. I wanted somebody empowering and someone creative and inspiring and dochi. I mean, she's incredible and I was already a fan of hers and yeah, we got the song to her. I had never met her, but it turns out she liked my music and yeah, we just, it ended up happening. and we connected and it was so great working with her. She sent me her verse and I was like, Yeah, it's so good. Yeah, the first line, I hate you bitches.

I'm misogynistic. Yeah, she's fire. Yeah, and it was all really natural in the video. Charlie Dennis directed, he's incredible. She's such a, like, visionary and it's so fun. She's free. She's very, like, free and down to create. And so am I, you know, like, I love.

I'm just down to like experiment and have fun and like push myself creatively. And it's fun when when you work with artists like that because you kind of like push each other. And it ends up being something you couldn't have created without one another. So yeah, I think in terms of collaborations, it's got to be like natural. I feel like you can smell when it's not. You use your voice in a really unique way. Like there are times where you're, you know, where it's really laid. and textures, sometimes whispering, sometimes gritty.

How do you decide what kind of voice you use? Yeah, I have so many different characters. It's just whatever the song needs, whatever growl I feel needs to come out of my body in that moment. You know, like there's like a lot of different, I always do this when I'm thinking because it's like, what like mood are you in? Like, I can sing really low.

I always say, as a joke, it's Banks featuring Brandon. Yeah, exactly. So sometimes I go into that, like, low-register ghost voice. And sometimes I'm, like, cunty, like, catty-like. And sometimes there's soft and tender and vulnerable. And there's so many different voices. Being that you write songs really by yourself and bring them in, who do you decide to collaborate or, like, how do you decide?

who your collaborators should be. Well, I used to only like writing alone. And now there are certain collaborators that, whether they're producers or, you know, or producers that also songwrite, like, there are certain people that I love being around and that inspire me because I think, for me, it's just a different vibe. I mean, like, so it's kind of just like what you feel. If you're feeling like kind of like bouncing ideas off of somebody else, I think that's when it's fun to kind of like co-write and create with somebody. And I really love doing that.

And I love being inspired. I love talent and creativity. Like it's like I fall in love with someone's mind when I'm working with them, you know? So give an example of a magical session. Okay. Well, should I do it like from this album? Or this album or any album? That's your question.

Do what you want with you? Okay. I'll say with totally enormous extinct dinosaurs teed under the table. Just magic. He was on the piano and I was singing and it just, it felt so magical. Like just, it just happened. There's, you know, and then like this hour. album, guillotine, I'll say, like working with Sone on that first intro track, which was the last

track we made. Like, it just kept growing and growing. And Sone's cool. Like, my first session ever with him, we wrote Rating Game. Yeah. Yeah. And that's a magical moment. I think direction with Silva, it's like so layered and his voice is so layered.

And then just like melody on top of melody on top of melody. And it's just like merging together. Yeah, there's so many different magical. And they're so special. Like those memories are so special. Why don't you write for other artists? It's so funny that you say that because this has been like a big conversation recently with my management is if I should start doing that. I've always, in the past, I was always kind of like the songs I write are so me that I'm like I can't really imagine someone else singing them.

but now with where I'm at, I can tap into a place where I could definitely write for someone else. And so I'm actually starting to think about doing that. I think it would be really fun. I think if I would want to write either for an artist that I love or with an artist that I love for their project. Who's an artist that you love? Okay. Okay. Okay.

Like, Jasmine Sullivan, a session with her, her voice kills me. Givion, some like R&B. I mean, these are all like plausible co-rides. Yeah. All you just have to do is walk in the room. This is one of the things about it. Well, I'm thinking like, like, rea, like, what are you asking me to like say like? You could literally do those sessions.

No, no, no, I know. But I mean, like, are you ask, were you asking me? kind of like dreamland, like Prince, like he's not even alive anymore. I mean, everyone wants to write with Prince. Yeah. Like, sure. But I think the, no, I think the practical part of like, you know, when this is, again, like you come into the industry in like the perfect time for both a Jillian and a

banks. Because I know I have some writers that are signed to our publishing company that are such incredible artists that people want to work with them because their artistry is so undeniable. It doesn't mean that they, and they don't have necessarily the fan base you have. Yeah. But just by having some proof of their own personality, how they want to be perceived. Yeah.

You know, like I know of other writers who want to be pop stars where their solo music doesn't inspire other people who want to write with them. Yeah. But when it's somebody who's taken the risk to run their business, you know, it's like, of course they would want to work with somebody who has the drive to be, I'm going to handle all these things because this is my vision. So let me help you with your vision. It's like, that's the dream scenario.

Do you know who else I think would be fun to work with is Tate McCray? Because she's so pop. Like, yeah. And she's got like those, you know, her songs have like, there's such vibes. Like I would have fun doing that too. Yeah, yeah. No question. Like some sexy concepts in there and just having fun with it.

I mean, Rihanna. There you go. Desperato. Desperado. She may or may not be coming out with some new music. Oh, sick. What are three decisions you've made that changed your life? Hmm.

Those are, that's a big question. Three decisions I've made that changed my life. I guess to pursue music, one of them. What was that decision like? You were a psychology major. Wasn't it weird to be like, hey, mom and dad math people? You account, you doctor, guess what I'm going to go and do music? Was that a weird decision?

They were always really supportive. but I was very, I'm a headstrong person. Like if I'm saying I'm going to do something, I'm going to do something. When I want to do something, I do it. But I think that this, there's a lot of rejection that comes with this business. And I think that that's a decision every single time you get rejected to keep going. And I think, thank God I did. And all those people out there that have been rejected, just keep going.

Someone once told me that there's a start and an end to a road. period, end of story. There's a start and an end. And no matter how many, some people have three bricks, three rejections, and then they get to the end and then they're good. Some people have million, guillian, but there will be an end if you don't stop. And that thought really gave me a lot of peace when someone said that to me, because I'm like, oh, it's just another brick. And I think that that's a decision every single time you don't stop. Every time any sort of obstacle comes in your way for any business. I think it's like a decision to keep going. It's in a relationship. Every fight, every time you feel discouraged or want to, it's like it's a decision. Do you stay in this or do you go?

And I think like every decision I've made to stay has changed my life because I've not given up, you know? So that's more than three. That's a million, however million bricks there are. I like that answer. All right. We're going to do a next segment. We're going to do a five for five. I mean, just list five things. Just tell me what comes off the top. five things. Yeah, sure. What? I'm just going to say five things.

You just say, we're going to go with the weekend tour. Okay. Backstage. Anna L.O., L.J. He was in his band in Ricky and Patrick. Just wide-eyed and excited. A black leather top and a black asymmetrical skirt. That's so good.

Her name is Banks Incorporated. Bad bitch. Money, business, decision-making, solo missions. Recording sessions. Love, fun, laughs. vulnerability, melodies, snacks, a blanket and a couch in a cozy room,

candles, lights off, SM7. Seattle. Water, calm, walks cherry blossoms rain drew Drew Kayla Ableton Structure

Color codes melodies Liberation Reverb Automation I hate My Ableton had a glitch recently and autom it kept everything I did it would like record whether I was like making something during the during a recording like if I turned something up or down it would it would just like

every in between every take delete automation delete automation it was so fucking annoying and I just had to do one thing to change but anyways um yeah that was five but I'm going to go with the six okay off with their head off with their head freedom guts blood Um, fun, magic, melodies. Um, Ali, who's my stylist who I love and she's been a big part of, of visual creation and brown. It's less black this, this chapter. There's a lot of like different shades of brown and in my, in the backgrounds.

underwear, titty's, masks. It's so interesting that somebody who was raised in a family that liked music, but we're not, admittedly not artists, what was it that made you connect the dots between visual art and music? Well, for me, they're just one together, because when I'm, my mind. My music for me transcend, like, it transforms my world. Like when I'm writing a song and I'm in something, like there is a world that it creates and there's colors that it creates and there's an energy and a mood.

And like you visualize when I'm going on walks and I'm listening to whatever song I'm working on, I'll think of like whatever the song is making me feel, that's like the world that I want to live in. And so it's big too. It's a big world. And I love creating that and putting that together. So it's not ever really something I had to learn how to do. It's more just like what comes naturally.

Well, thank you for doing this podcast. Thanks for having me. You know, it's one of those things where a lot of people hit us up these days and want to jump on. And we've got limited amount of space. And when your name came up, it was like, oh, hell yeah. We are absolutely doing that. And I think it's because you really do lead by example.

And a lot of people bring your name up in sessions of like, I want to do something like that. And I think that's so hard and vulnerable to be willing to put yourself out in a business that is generally, it's built on people like you and then it's all these people who just try to emulate but there's so few true leaders and I think you're a leader

and so that's why I was really excited to have you on and I really appreciate you thank you that means so much to me to hear that thank you so much there you go Yeah. We did it.

We hope you enjoyed this episode. It was produced by me and Joe London in association with Mega House Music Group. If you like this episode, go give us a rating at wherever you listen to your podcast. And make sure to follow us at And The Writer is on all your socials. We'll see you next week.