And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 212: Russ | Building An Indie Empire

Episode Date: June 12, 2025

This week’s guest is one of the most successful independent artists in modern music.He’s a rapper, singer, songwriter, and producer who built his career from the ground up. in this rare conversation, he opens up about the side of the journey we don’t usually hear:The emotional weight of ownership, the mental toll of doing it all alone, and the belief system that kept him going when no one else did.This is a blueprint for any creative who wants to build something real without losing their peace.And The Writer Is... Russ!Chapters00:00 – Intro02:14 – How Russ Beat the System Without Selling His Soul04:16 – Childhood Chaos, Cop Cars & Creative Spark07:06 – Soulja Boy, Pep Rallies & Atlanta Music Culture08:19 – Rock Ballads & Soul Roots You Didn’t Expect10:11 – The Guitar That Started It All11:49 – GarageBand & Making Beats for Friends12:41 – Wayne, Wiz & Folk Rock: A Weird Musical Diet13:56 – Why Russ Doesn’t Sound Like Anyone Else15:29 – Publishing Wars: Russ vs. Drum Programmers26:18 – Why Songwriters Are Fighting for the Wrong Money29:32 – The $850K Sample Mistake30:21 – Power, Control & Protecting His Business34:05 – Why He Still Handles His Own Deals35:11 – A Wake-Up Call to Songwriters: Keep Your Records39:03 – When a Song Hits Mid-Dinner, You Leave41:44 – Burnout, Collaboration & Creative Revival45:11 – The Line He’ll Never Cross in Rap48:01 – Turning Fights Into Hits (Literally)50:07 – Writing in the Shower & Whispering Hooks at 2AM54:14 – Harmonizing with His Partner—In Music and Life56:02 – When He Doesn’t Create, Everything Unravels57:09 – The 20% Rule That Changed His Sanity58:07 – How Columbia Let Him Stay Indie (Kind Of)61:06 – Ownership, Spending, and Where the Real Money Is63:56 – What Russ Would Do If He Had to Start Over65:19 – Vulnerability vs. Confidence: The Real Inner Battle66:07 – Why He Samples Even Though He Can Write Anything66:38 – Burnout & Building a Life Outside of Music67:52 – Being Your Own Engine (and Breaking Down)69:25 – The Hidden Prison of Fame70:38 – Panic Attacks, Depression & Healing72:01 – Therapy, Faith & Finding Balance75:17 – Music as Medicine (and a Mental Trap)78:42 – Dopamine Detox & Spiritual Warfare81:11 – Why He Hates LA82:22 – “I Can Make a Hit in 20 Minutes”—But Should I?83:33 – Escaping the Productivity Hamster Wheel84:38 – A $25M Lesson Every Artist Should Hear86:51 – Love, Identity, and the Power of a Creative Partner89:09 – Real Talk on Timing, Trust, and Tension90:54 – What Actually Grounds Russ (That You Don’t See Online)92:33 – What He Hopes to Be Remembered For94:10 – For the Dreamer Who’s Almost Out of Gas96:22 – Why Gratitude Isn’t Optional97:47 – Ego vs. Purpose: The Shift That Saved His Career99:21 – Navigating Hate, Criticism & Longevity102:06 – Owning Your Story Without Needing a Comeback104:33 – Faith, Flow & Letting Go107:18 – Redefining Wealth: What Energy Are You Leaving Behind?109:55 – Art as Therapy: Why He’ll Never Stop Writing112:11 – Leaving a Legacy Without Forcing It115:03 – What He Still Doesn’t Feel Comfortable Sharing117:12 – A Final Message to Artists Who Feel Alone120:10 – Outro: What Russ Hopes You Take From This Episode Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I think I've gotten really far off of just delusion. What's a song that just came off the cuff? All of the big ones. All of them. 315 was an hour. What they want was 45 minutes. I did a song a week for 96 weeks, something like that. It blew up.

This is kind of why I did my approach of a song a week. The people pick the hits. You could think it's this one. Just put the music out. And the people will tell you it's this one. Put your shit out. Are you ever afraid that you'll run out of creativity? Every day. That comes with being an artist, you know. I take care of my whole family off of music, so it has to keep working.

I mean, if you were to start from zero with everything you know now, how would you do it? I would. NMPA is the premier organization for music publishers and their songwriter partners. It's their mission to increase the value of music. That's exactly what they do. NMPA is working right now to raise royalty rates for songwriters from streaming services, radio, social media, and everywhere, music is essential. From the courts to Congress, NMPA works to get songwriters what they deserve. I know because I've served on the board before, and I'm the current co-chair along with Ryan Tetter and Liz Rose for the

Golden Platinum Club. So again, thank you NMPA for supporting and the writer. is and songwriters everywhere. Welcome to And The Writer is. I am your host, Ross Golan. There are millions of singers and thousands of artists, but only 40 songs per genre at a time. This podcast aims to shed a light on those creators who make those songs. I produced this with my friend Joe London,

in association with Megahouse music group. Special shout out, Charlotte Isidore, Jad, and Michael White. and you can follow us at And The Writer Is on all your socials. We'll see you there. Now, this week's episode. Welcome to And The Writer Is. I'm your host, Ross Golan. Today's indie superhero is a musical force whose career defies the traditional rules of the industry.

With his pen, production, and passion, he's crafted his own lane in a space where independence and artistry often clash. known for his unapologetic approach to creative control, he's built a legacy as an all-in rapper, producer, and songwriter. From the early days of releasing free music on SoundCloud to dropping platinum albums, he's proven time and again the hard work and authenticity are key all the way from Jersey-ish. he's championing for artist rights everywhere.

And the writer is Russ. Wow. What an intro. Thank you. I would say that if my name is mistaken for any other, it's Russ. Yeah. I get Ross as well. Yeah.

It's a weird thing because it's hard to explain to people because Russ and Ross probably are about, I don't know, you've probably met as many Russes as Rosses in your life. I've never met enough. other Ross now that I think about it. Oh, that's cool. So, but you probably even met that many Russes either, right? No. It's not like a super common name.

I feel like maybe there was one kid I went to high school with. I think he had red hair. You're supposed to have red hair if your name is Russell. Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely one of those things where it's a loud place and it's like, what's your name is Russ? Ross? Ross?

I always get Ross. Ross? Yeah. No, no, no, no, no, Russ with the you. Yeah. Ross? Yeah, yeah. I forget it. Well, my in-laws call me Rusty because they thought that my name was Russ for a minute before they met me. Yeah, just walk around with the name tag. Yeah, yeah. So, like, literally, my brother-in-law calls me Rusty still. And I've been married for like over 10 years. Yeah, that's good. That's, it's just going to stick at this point. So you were born. I was born. Yeah, okay. And so you're a Jersey kid. We moved when I was a baby. Yeah, you lived in it everywhere.

It's so funny. Why did you move everywhere? So my dad's job. He was just chasing jobs. But I was born in New Jersey. My dad's from New Jersey. My mom's from New York. But we moved when I was a baby.

What's so funny is like, to this day, yesterday. Like I tweeted like, the Pacers are going to beat the Thunder and the Finals, which means that they would beat the Knicks. And somebody's like, you're from Jersey. How could you? I'm like, y'all just are not going to let this one go. Yeah. Like, you're just going to.

going to claim me as being from New Jersey. It doesn't matter if we moved like when I was two months old. But do you think that like does North Carolina, does Kentucky, like who has the, who gets the right? I think Atlanta gets it just because I've lived there for 20 years. Oh, yeah. And I did like, we moved there when I was 12, which I think is like really important years, you know, 12 and beyond, going into high school, you know.

So what jobs, when you say your dad chased jobs, what do he do? So he's working at a bank, then he was working at advertising company, then he tried to start his own thing. But he didn't, you know, he didn't go to college. So leaving New Jersey, just chasing work. Yeah. Kentucky and... Kentucky was a random one.

I don't know why we were there. We were there for a year. Do you remember any of it? Yeah. I stabbed my... I impaled myself with a sparkler. Like July 4th, Sparkler when I was like 8 or 7, running down the like hill that we lived on.

and I remember just tripping and falling. That seems very painful. Yeah, but that was a wild, strange time. Why? It was like a new development. So there was like a bunch of unbuilt houses, you know, where it's just like the construction of it happening. And I'm like six years old and there's older kids in the neighborhood

and there's not shit to do. So we were just, I was like tagging along, like breaking into those houses. And I don't know what they were doing. I was six years old. seven years old. And I remember just like riding in the back of a cop car back then and them dropping me off at my parents, back of my parents' house. I think it was like some scare tactic.

I don't know. I got to ask like my parents if they were in on that. Were you a bad kid? Nah. No, I wasn't a bad kid. No, I wouldn't say that. Yeah. Yeah.

So you guys moved to Atlanta when you're 12. Yeah. the culture in Atlanta when you were 12 is like prime for music that's like a hot spot at the time yeah I mean we lived like north of the city like 20 minutes so you know but I was there when all the like snap music took off you know so like there was a new crazy dance that everyone was doing at the pep rallies like I remember being in high school and soldier boy coming and performing at the pep rally when he had cranked that and like everyone like fled the bleachers and the teachers are on the basketball court doing the crankdown. It was like crazy. He was like 16 telling

everyone, fuck school, like in high school. That's probably. We were driving up, I have a three and a half year old and a one and almost one and a half year old. We're driving up to somewhere this weekend and we're listening to, you know, 2000s hits and 2010 since we kind of go through like all those different decade things. and I'm in the car and my kids in the back and I'm going like, Superman that ho! And I'm just like, this feels like really wrong as we're doing that way. But I don't know. It kind of sounds like a superhero. Like, I don't know.

I don't have to explain it yet. Yeah. Or ever, I hope. Yeah. Let them discover it. Was, what kind of music did you listen to in the house? So in the house, my parents would play like shit from the seven. 70s, you know, like Kansas.

Oh, wow. Yeah. That's not what I thought you were going to say. What did you think? I don't know. I mean, your stuff has a lot of soulful aspects to it. So like, I guess my assumption was not, you know, Kansas is the least, I shouldn't say soulful because it's soulful in its own way.

But it's the, it's, I mean, it's the. But I grew up on those like 70s rock ballads, like journey, Kansas. But my dad was also playing like mamas and papas. It's like, all the leaves around them, do, do, do. You want to something crazy? Huh. That they, the house that they lived in is like a mile from here. No shit.

Like this whole area is filled with that. Yeah, but that's an aside. Anyway, so you go and. But they would have, they would do these, like, dance party nights where they would just play music and my mom and dad would dance around. And it was Bee Gees. It was Earth went in fire. It was Mamas and Pappas.

It was, you know, my dad was playing Bruce Springsteen. And, yeah, I don't know. It was just everything. Is anyone playing music? No, my dad was like really musically inclined, though. How do you know that? His rhythm and his ear was like, like he could sing and he would harmonize when like he was that dad where like the songs playing and he's doing perfect harmonies.

Like what? And like the steering wheel is the craziest drum kit ever. And he's nailing the solos like on Hotel California. He's still doing it, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But he was just really musically inclined. His dad played guitar, banjo, mandolin. So it just like skipped him and went to me. When did it start for you? 13. Yeah. With what?

So, man, back at the, I'm trying to think of the year. 13, I was, it was like 2005, something like that. 04. And just kind of went like, I don't know, ultimate guitar tabs was like huge. And I just wanted to play a guitar. And so my grandfather bought me a guitar. He taught me like the first couple chords D major and A and G and whatever. And that's that was my like introduction to music was playing the guitar and learning how to play, you know, good riddance by Green Day and fucking smoke on the water. Yeah. You know.

Did you try writing songs on a guitar first? Yeah. Oh, yeah. like melodramatic campfire songs. Like what? What was the first song? God, I wish. Like, see, this is the thing.

Like technology back then. There was no, like, recorded. Yeah, but if you're the guy who can go on radio stations and freestyle, you're probably the guy who can recall a song that they wrote. No, you know what? I've never thought about this till now. I think it was like me and my best friend at the time who played guitar as well and like keyboard and drums.

And I think we would just hang out and try to write bullshit. But it wasn't like a, yo, let's sit and write a song. We were like 14. Just like bullshiting. There was no structure. There was no anything. When did you write something where you, where it started to sound like a song that you'd recognize?

Oh, wow. 19. Oh, so you had years there. Oh, yeah. So, like, I started to play the guitar. Then that led to me fucking around with like keys. Then I got an electric drum set and was doing that. You just do covers or just learn other people's music?

Learn other people's music. Yeah, like my brother. would play like the guitar for Kashmir by Led Zeppelin and I would do the drums because they're so easy. Yeah. And it was just, that's what we would do. And then it led to me making beats. So then I was making beats and there was rappers at school that would come over and record.

And I was just, I was just the kid making beats on garage. What's the, what rappers did you like most from your high school? When I was in high school, damn. These are such good, because I've never had these questions. It's awesome. Let me think. Back then, 05, 06, 06 to 2010, it was, it was Wayne. Wayne was fucking, he was the man.

Like, 06, 07 is when he dropped like 70 songs, like, in a year. We're just jumping on everyone's shit. Yeah, crazy. Wiz Khalifa blew up right around that time. Kanye, Drake, like, towards the end of high school, like, 2009. Jay Cole, Kendrick, same. It was all like the end of high school. But early on in high school,

I was really listening to like singer-songwriter stuff, like a fine frenzy and Brett Denin and fucking... Wow. Yeah. Brett's a super nice guy. Oh, yeah? I've only ever heard Ain't No Reason, but it's one of my favorite songs ever.

He's also a redhead just going back. He is. That's called a callback. We'll get into more... But I was just obsessed. I was always obsessed with like acoustic stuff. Did you... I mean, it's so interesting to be like, this is one of the things that your skill set as a creator

and what you're digesting as a listener aren't always the same thing. No. And I think the assumption is that you listen to all the music that clearly inspires this. And it's like, no, no, no. You listen to all of it. When you sit down, that's who you are. Yeah. You know?

I think some of those like pop punk soft rock melodies come out in the music, though, sometimes. Yeah. I think like some of the melodies I do, like don't like, they don't come from a R&B background. So I think sometimes with my music, like, this is me speculating, but I feel like it's hard to place it for like rap editors at DSPs and shit because the melodies are like from 2006 soft rock pop punk thriving ivory a day to remember. like emo melodies, you know what I mean, to a certain degree. Yeah, I mean, that was actually one of the questions that I was going to ask later when we get into it because there's the choices of samples of melodies that you're doing. Like, it's clearly not, it's not the same as everyone else in any specific genre.

It feels like it's like from different places. Yeah. Like when you're making beats starting with that, are you making beats that sound anything like the rust we know? No, back then it was trying to make like what did it sound? What did your beats sound like when you started? Oh, man, it was all synth heavy because you got to remember right. Like 0-6-07 was like when synths were running shit. Yeah.

Like all the Jim Johnson production. Love in this club by Usher. Like all that kind of just really just like synth-le. leads were cool. You know, so all my shit back then was like really heavily just bad stock sounds of sense. Yeah. Yeah. Until you realize, you know, I posted a thing about drum programmers, which we can get into.

I saw that. How's that going? How's the blowback on that going? Yeah. Well, we'll get into that. Oh, man. No, it's like, it's, it's, uh, I don't even remember where I was going once you said the blowback thing. That really, that really took me to the place.

You're just spiraling right now. I was at all, I was at my head all weekend. Yeah. And we could just jump to that for a second. Like I basically posted that drum programmers. It was a clip from John Bellion's interview where I said, you know, if drum programmers want to come from my publishing, I'm going to come for your production. is the gist of it, you know? I think the idea is that

I'm referring primarily to people who add drums after the song is written and not the people who are in the room creating the beat. Yeah. So do you feel they should get like a work for hire fee? I just think that production is production and songwriting is songwriting.

And if, you know, in a technical sense, songwriting is lyric and melody. That's the legal truth ruling. You can have lots of different chords underneath. You have lots of different drum beats. You may have one that's really good

that makes it a hit. But that's not songwriting. That is by definition, production. And a lot of people who produce on songs after the song was written then come and say, well, this is essential to the songwriting. And a songwriter is like, nope,

that's essential to the production. If you want our songwriting, then we want your production. Oh. Or don't come for ours. Shit. We're not going to come for yours. Yeah.

And so there's this like, when I posted that, I thought it was going to be, you know, the Nashville people are like, amen. Of course. Louder. Yeah. And the, you know, the Atlanta people are like, what the fuck are you talking about?

And like when you, oh, this is my thought process with it was when you have, somebody talking about stock sense. Somebody wrote as a comment, I don't always read comments, but this thread I read comments. But somebody posted, well,

what would umbrella be without the drumbeat? Well, that drumbeat is a stock sample, a stock loop in logic. Yeah. So what it would be is a song without a stock loop from logic. Yeah.

You know, using that in the creation of the beat, if the beats created first, which it was with that song in particular, you know, those producers are song writers because they're part of the process of the creation of the song. Yeah. No, I see what you're saying. And there's definitely validity to that. But then you know what I'm of the mind of is the song is the lyrics and the music. Simple, right?

Who wrote the lyrics? Who wrote the music? and I think the drums are part of the music. So for me, like when I'm doing publishing splits, it's like, who wrote the lyrics and the melody? A lot of flies. I shower. Yeah, I shower.

I'm kidding. It's just the day. Yeah, yeah. Who wrote the lyrics? Who wrote the melody? Who did the music? Who did the drums? So lyrics and melody, 50%.

That's half. and then music and drums is 50%. So for me, for example, if I was to chop up a sample and then somebody else did all the drums, I'm splitting that 25, 25. See what I'm saying? Yeah, I see that.

And then if I wrote the lyrics and the melody and all that person did was the drums, I'm getting 75 pub. They're getting 25. Because I broke the song into four things. Lyrics, melody, music, drums. That's how I break it down. Is that, does it depend on when the things are done?

No, no. Because for me, the song gets heard all at the same time. See what I'm saying? Yeah. It goes out and it gets perceived. So whether or not you did it two weeks after I laid my shit down and whatever, it's like, the song is the song. Would the lyrics or melody writers be entitled to?

to the production. No. Why? Because they didn't do anything with the production. But isn't the sound of a word or the sound of a melody as valid as the sound of a drum? Yeah, but you're going to get compensated for that. But the drums are getting compensated. Well, okay, so this is-

You're trying to basically weigh the importance of each in saying the lyrics and melody are more important. No, no, no. I'm saying that if somebody's coming onto a song and they're going to play drums and they're going to ask for, say, 25% of the publishing. Sure. I would say, one, no, that's not. I would say no, that's not songwriting.

Yeah. Like that in its definition is not songwriting. But if we're going to be egalitarian and say, okay, we're all going to partake in the publishing because the drums are important. This song's never been released before. The drums make people move. And they wrote the drum part. And you wrote the drum part.

That's fine. Okay. So you want to get on my publishing. I'm now going to take the equal percentage of your production. I'm going to take the fee and the points because the drums are not part of songwriting. But in our world that we're going to create, where we're going to allow you to be part of this, I'm going to be part of that because lyrics and melodies are not part of production. Sure.

Just like drums are not part of songwriting in a legal sense. and as somebody who's often writing the song where the drumbeat may change one way or the other but the song is usually pretty clear by the time it goes out to somebody. Yeah, but the drums can really shift the whole fucking everything. So a lot of people posted the, you know,

it was like, yeah, but imagine these songs without the drums. And I was like, imagine these songs without the melody or lyrics. Then they're just drum. Like I see people, I know that there's, you know, instrumental music that becomes hits, but it's a small percentage. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know. Like, you're talking about like probably 0.01% of songs, like maybe like Harlem Shake or some shit. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like, it's pretty, there are very few songs that are smashes without any real, like, lyric melody, you know? And it's just not going to be a thing. So, like, I feel like I'm. more likely going to, I just would end up saying you want some of the songwriting. Now, when you say taking part of their production, what do you mean? Instead of them getting four points you're going to take, they're going to get two and you're going to get two? I'm just saying like if we're going to split everything, let's split everything or let's not. But I don't know why all of a sudden my rights as a rights holder as a songwriter is now

automatically given to people who aren't technically entitled to it. Yeah, because you're using the technical definition, which is fair. And I also work in like, you know, 10 different genres. Yeah. So one genre specifically really credits music most. And which in many ways, if you look at Motown, like how, how, you know, what was it, James James Jameson at the basis? Like, how does like do, do, do, do, do, do.

How does that not get some publishing? I'm not like, I'm not unaware of the contribution of melodies within a song. However, they weren't credited because they're not songwriters. So in a world where now we've moved towards like, okay, we're going to say 50%'s music. Yeah. If we're going to say that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then I'm going to say that's cool.

And also in that world. I'm going to say 50% of the production is the song. Or we're going to go and say, I'm the songwriter. You're the, you guys are the producers. And sometimes this is where you're a unicorn. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, this is where, like, why I'm asking you in particular. You're an advocate for the music business and for songwriters and artists.

Yeah. Whether you like it or not, you're posting things that are advocate-ish. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So deal with it, bro. You posted it. I reposted it. I didn't like, it's not. Yeah, yeah.

I didn't put it. It didn't work the other way. Correct. You know, and you're going through like, so you have the ability to write and produce 100% song. And so do I. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So we're in a unique place where we get to often dictate how we're going to treat the collaborators.

Yeah. That's super unique. Yeah. So it's like how. you're doing it is going to is um i just you know what it is i genuinely want to make everyone feel like they're being valued and i'm not trying to like i'm not trying to squeeze anyone not saying you are but i'm not trying to squeeze anyone so for me it's just easier to be like okay if i did lyrics and melody and I chopped the sample and you did the drums.

Here's 25. I'm getting 75. Sign off on it. See you. It's just easy. Instead of like trying to go back and forth, we're like, well, really, you should be 19.85%. It's like, you know what, bro? I don't give a shit enough. You know what I mean? Like for me, I have so much fucking music out.

And here's the other like, here's the, here is the finesse that's happening in the music business. Everyone is so fucking concerned with publishing. because everyone thinks that that's where the money's at wrong. The money's on the master side. You don't make that much money on publishing unless that shit goes dumb at radio, gets crazy things. The master is where the,

so you get a bunch of people fighting over a pub. It's like, dog, that's not even where the money is. The money's on the master's side. Like, that's where the money is. Straight up. That's where the bulk of the money is. The bulk of the money is absolutely on the master's. And most people share the master side with a record label.

Right. It's not themselves. Right. So they don't often see the real value the way that you're seeing it. That's why I don't give a shit about the publishing like that. Like, oh, I always tell sample holders, bro, take 100% of the pub. I just want to put the song out. I know I'm making millions on the master's side.

Take the pup. Don't give a fuck. Like, I just want to put it out. This is why most professional songwriters are still aiming for, radio while it exists. And the licensing and all the other stuff that comes to it, the licensing world is 50-50. Yeah. You know what I mean?

So the licensing world is going to be, you know, it's its own beast. Yeah. But I think the other thought with it, and a lot of your music isn't being covered by other people. Yeah. It is sometimes on TikTok and on other things. But like a valuable copyright can, you know, when, when our. R-A-Double-A's your album's platinum.

The idea for songwriters that, well, we've had, it's that recording that's qualified as platinum. The song has been that recording plus all the covers. Yeah. You know, like there's other versions of certain songs that have, like, tremendous value outside of it. I do think that you're right, though. Part of the reason why the publishing is worth less and less

is mostly because, you have drum programmers getting 25%. Yeah. There was a, if you had 50-50, you know, on losing control, mm-hmm,

like that song still would create, you know, it's at what, like a billion streams across platforms, probably more. I got fucked with that song because I forgot, because I forgot to clear the sample.

Until after it was like four times platinum. And so I probably could have cleared it in 20, 15 when I made, but I didn't know anyone in 2015. I'm a kid in the basement. Yeah, yeah. But I probably could have cleared it back then for five grand. And so, like, song comes out, goes on the album. I forget about it to the point where I'm like, I don't even remember if I sampled that.

And then I was like, oh, fuck, I did. Like that pad, just two chords is a sample. And so the sample holders came, like in, you know, whatever that was, 2018 or 2020 or some shit. And I was like, fuck, because it was four or five times platinum at that point. So I had to cut a check for like 850 grand. That was expensive. Yeah, it was inexpensive fuck up. But it was like, it was fine because it was like I had just like re-uped with Columbia.

Like I had just gotten whatever advance that was for, like the third album or some shit. And so I didn't even feel like I lost. the money because it was just like it went to me and then I just sent it to them. I was like, oh, whatever. I didn't even get to like touch it anyway. Why do you think most artists are unaware of their business? And why are you so aware of your business? That is a good question.

I think most artists are unaware of what's going on due to lack of asking questions. And they don't, maybe they're intimidated to like know about it or it just a lot of times too, when you don't know about something, it just feels like foreign and intimidating and overwhelming. I remember like when I was still not like mixing, you know, our shit. So like I started out just producing for my boy and we would send it off to get mixed because mixing felt like this crazy world that I didn't know about. And I wasn't even, I didn't even like have the awareness like look up what mixing is or whatever. We were just sending it off. Like, yeah, I don't know, mixing some other shit.

And then we were getting mixes back and we didn't like them. And I was like, let me just figure out what this is. And so then I started mixing everything. And so same thing I think with like the business side. I think I would speculate and say most artists are probably just overwhelmed and intimidated by the whole business world because they don't know what's what. And so they're like, fuck it. I'm just not going to ask.

You handle it. It's too confusing. It's too much. But for me, why? I'm so, like, aware and want to be aware is because it's my shit. Like, yeah. It's my shit. It's my business.

I'm not, like, I'm not going to let somebody else just tell me like, yeah, no, no, no, this is just how it goes. I ask questions. I call my lawyer all the time. I call my business manager all the time. Like, I don't know everything. I just ask a lot of questions. It seems like when I called you a unicorn, I mean, you're not literally a unicorn.

You're metaphorically a unicorn. No? It feels like almost like like I'm not sure if it's like an insult or a pickup line or so you're a unicorn. It just feels like a weird thing to say to something. It feels good. It feels romantic. Okay. There's kind of romantic.

Yeah. But the idea that when I have conversations with my friends who are musicians, a couple of them are like, do you really like this stuff? I'm like, no. I really like the business stuff too. And when I go in and create, it somehow feels. it feels like an escape and vice versa. Interesting. Do you ever write songs, knowing the business, do you ever write songs specifically to target

something that affects your business? No. No. Like, oh, I'm going to make this because a certain side of TikTok's going to go crazy. Yeah, that feels kind of cheap, I guess, in that sense. But do you feel like, I guess the other would be true too, which is like after you write a song, are you immediately thinking of how you're going to market that song? Yeah. Yeah. I am thinking that. But to me, that's just another, like, branch of my creativity,

you know, is, oh, I can already see the visuals for this song. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, that's just another part of my creativity. When you started releasing music, you know, I want to say, because you made a good point about, like, the, you like, you like the business side, it's an escape. I think for part of it is also like wanting to feel in control. And I feel like if I don't know what's going on with my business, I'm just free falling in limbo. I'm just putting music out and songs out and not knowing what's what. Like that's scary to me. It feels very unsafe.

It feels like I'm not in control. It feels like I'm just trusting that people I met via the business are just going to have my best interest. and, you know, I like to, it's, I think it comes from a lack of trust. I don't trust anyone more than I trust myself, you know. And so that's nice. I know you're a great lawyer. I know you looked at it. I'm looking at it, though.

Mm-hmm. You know. And some of that, like, it's a fine line because sometimes I get too micromanagey where it's like it doesn't foster competence. It fosters. this sort of like not not resentment

but sort of just this bro back off like I got it you know but I'm like you sure yeah I got to fucking read it watch it look at it ask questions just because like I said like if something fucks up I don't want to be blindsided by it

I want to be like you know what I looked at it and I missed that yeah we just had the the BMI Awards and they asked, you know, what's advice you'd give a young writer? And I said, learn how you're getting screwed. Because then you can spend your whole career with eyes wide open. Yeah. Yeah.

What advice would you give young songwriters? Stop giving your songs away. Two artists. Songwriters get stuck in this, like, loop where I feel like they have been, told or they've believed or accepted that you can't be the artist. You're just the writer, whether it's because your appearance or whatever the fuck it is. It's like, y'all are the geniuses. Y'all are like the source is what I call them. Y'all are the source. Put your shit out. You know, like one of my favorite songwriters, Bibi Borelli, who I worked with on Santiago.

Every time I talk to, I'm like, please put your shit out. You know, when I first met, I was like, stop giving your songs away just because I get it like there's an art to that too like you writing something and somebody else singing it whatever I get it but I'm like nah like because when she'll play me like

her demos and I'm like this is so much better than what came out and oftentimes it's the emotion behind it it's like I can tell you wrote this based off how you're singing it and I can tell that person did not write this. They sound like they're reading off a script, you know. And it's like,

especially in today's day and age where there's not the gatekeepers of the past who are like, I think it was the dream. They told like, no, you're not, like you don't look good enough to be a songwriter or some shit like that. That's out, that doesn't apply anymore. Like, this is the internet. Like, put your shit out. The dream solo albums were so good. So good. They were so good. And so they were so underrated. I think the thing about, being a songwriter not to get off topic. But I think the idea is that you get to be whoever you want differently than an artist. You have to release songs that identify with Russ, the brand.

And if I release, I write a lot of songs for women. Nice. And like I'm not likely to release those songs. That would be cool. We'll do our demo album at some point. But it's a different thing when you're like, you know, I get to write with people from, you know, I write a lot in Nashville and New York and I've been to Atlanta a few times and it's like, I'm writing music for a lot of people who are not like me.

And I love that. That's an awesome exercise though. The couple times where I've been like given the opportunity to like, hey, so-and-so's looking for songs, can you write something? It's like the most fun ever because I get out of my own way. I'm no longer writing lyrics that I feel like have to apply to me. I'm doing it for that. But it ends up, I just end up putting those songs out.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, like, how did this song happen? The one that you did with Ina, did you know, Ena? Like, there's the one that, like, oh, 315. Yeah. Yeah. Did you know, I sampled that. So I was at a Turkish restaurant.

I want to hear this story about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll get to the appetizers. Ina is like a songwriting, like she's part of the songwriting community. So to see her as like the co-writer on it is like, is really exciting. Tell me, you know, how did that song come out? Yeah, so I rarely leave my house and I'm glad I did this time. I went to a Turkish restaurant and they were just playing the Jacks Jones acoustic version of that song.

I believe. Or they were playing just his version with her singing. It had to be the acoustic version. Either way, I was like, this melody's fucking crazy. Like, what is it? So I shazam it. I'm like, all right, we got a dip. So run home, and I just sampled the acoustic version.

And that was it. Very simple. Were you with other people at this restaurant? My girl and my mom. And when those moments happen, when you're in a public place. They know. We got a bit. Yeah, they know.

Get the check. Can I finish my wine? No. Get the fuck out of here. A-sap. I'm trying to. Don't you want another Chanel bracelet? Oh, my God.

Can you imagine? Can you imagine? Oh, my God. Please say this is that what actually happens. No, but in my head. It's just a weird thing because, like, no, that happens a lot of restaurants. My wife always says, like, where did you just go? And it's like,

It's this verse and I'll start singing like she just knows that like all of a sudden there's this look and I don't know the look because it's my face. Yeah. You don't see it. Well, it's interesting. We're always working. We don't even realize it. Yeah. I think, you know, Rick Rubin talks about like your antennas being up.

And I think it's just a testament to it's honoring the gift. You know, honoring the gift of creativity is recognizing when your antennas are picking up something and you need to dip. You know? That's honoring your gift for me. So like if I'm at a restaurant, I hear something. I shazam it. I hear the whole beat flip in my head. I got to go.

Otherwise, that's a slap in the face to the gift I've been given, you know? Yeah. Oh my God. It's so real. And when I have these conversations of people who aren't musicians, professional musicians, the muggles, if you will, as we like the, when you try to explain, okay. No one else has their job in their face all the time.

Yeah. In a car, in a restaurant, in any store, anywhere in public, you walk down a street and your job is thrown at you everywhere. Yeah. Like, I don't care what your job is. I can't think of another scenario where you're going to have your job all in your face. You're on the clock. Constantly. It's just constantly.

And it's why I try to listen to a lot of music that isn't like the music I write. Otherwise, it just will consume. So bummed out, though, with that. Because I listen to so much music that I don't write music like the songs I listen to, but I want to so bad. I'm like, how do I write a song that makes me feel like how pushing it down and praying by Lizzie makes me, you know what I mean? How do I write shit like fucking Slim Dan or McGee?

Like, how do I fucking do this? I'm so pissed because it's like, this is all I listen to. And I go in the studio and I don't make it. this. Like, what is the disconnect? Well, that's what we're saying. The appetite for listening to music is not the same as the appetite for making it. And like, you know, when you sit down in front of your computer and you have like eight hours to dive into something, you're like, you dive into generally what's natural for you to write, which is not necessarily. Which I hate. I hate.

Why don't you? But I will say this. You could write other music. You have this still set to do it. Yeah. Yeah. You know what it is? I want to I think that's part of why I was so open to like collaboration these past two albums because I think there's a potential for stagnation when you're drawing from the same well consistently. And so for me, you know, over the years, and I feel like every artist has this, but like I have my go-to melodic insights and my like familiar harmonic landscapes that I dance around in. and they're just after 500 songs in countless sessions,

it just got to a point of predictability, even for myself as the creator. Like, oh, I know exactly what I'm about to do. Boring. You know, like, I'm over it. I know exactly what melody. Like, it's like the melody pool of, and every artist has those go-to melodies.

Like, I feel like the weekend has, like, just those weekend melodies. Drake has very, like, Drake melodies. And after a while, it's just kind of like, I'm over this. bro. And so this album and last album, but this album, I had these two guys from Australia, Jake and Kiri, found them on TikTok. Insane songwriter producers. They're like, they're me, but just Australian, you know, because they sit in their room. They make everything. They mix

everything. They do the beat, everything. And so we got in a group chat, and we just started sending ideas back and forth. And it was so fun because I realized that collaboration is a trampoline, you know? and I might send a melody idea and then they bounce off of it and go there and because you bounce off of this and went there and now I'm bouncing off of that and going there and I got to a place off the trampoline of collaboration that I wouldn't have jumped to, you know?

And it allowed me to be a fan again because I didn't know what I was about to hear. You know what I'm saying? Like if they would send a melody idea, I was like I got to hear it for the first time. as opposed to my melodies, it's just, it's predictable for me now, you know. Not all the time, but there's a lot of predictability and stagnation from just being insular and isolated with my creative process.

That takes a certain level of humility. I think a lot of artists are afraid to do it slash admit that they do it. And then when they do it, it's like, I mean, we know of other people who rap where they vehemently hide their collaborators. Because they're so afraid. Well, with rap, yeah, you shouldn't have people writing your raps. I just feel like that's a, like, that's a rule of the culture. So for me, like, nobody's ever written my raps.

Nobody ever will. Yeah. But when it comes to writing choruses and hooks, this one, it's like, yeah, bro, let's jam and write songs together. Yeah. Let's write melodies together. That's fun. That's what I used to do when I was 14.

You know what I mean? Like, that's the inception of this shit. Now that you've done that, does that open up a door to, I mean, like, where obviously you're in LA right now because, you know, wild is new. Yeah. Yeah. Does it make you want to just ride the heels and just be like, all right, let's go, let's go, let's go. Yeah, bro.

It makes the whole process so much faster. But here's my thing, too. Or efficient, I should say. I don't, I'm never going to be the person where it's like, send me songs and I'll just sing them. Fuck no. Yeah. My handprints have to be on it.

Otherwise, it's not authentic. Totally. And so that's what was so great with this process was, like I said, it was just me, Jake and Kerry, three producer songwriters. We all make beats. We all write melodies. And just all of us sending beats back and forth. And then, yo, do you hear anything for this?

Oh, yeah, I hear this. Oh, that makes me think of this. And like, it was true, pure collaboration. It wasn't, you know, I recorded this song. Sing it. You know what I mean? Of course. So it's, but to your question, yes, it is, it's exciting because it's like, who else is out there

that I could just get in with and just write melodies with. Because like I said, you get to a point, bro, where it's like, you are just burnt out on your go-to melodic insights and your go-to harmonic worlds. It's like, it gets boring. And if this shit isn't fun, then what the fuck am I doing this shit for, you know? Are you ever afraid that you'll be? run out of creativity? Every day.

I feel like that is the, that comes with being an artist, you know? It's like, you go to the studio one day and you don't make shit, it's like, oh, maybe that was it. Maybe this is it, you know? Like, that's how dramatic I am sometimes. Like, damn, bro, like,

what if I never make a fucking fire melody again? But then I always end up making one. And it's like, okay, I was being dramatic. But being dramatic, I will say, is a very underrated attribute to being a great songwriter. I think you have to over-dramatize the trivial moments of life to be a great songwriter. Why? Like, the tiniest things that are not a big deal make them a big deal.

That's like, think about, you know, there's like massive songs that are written off of like a petty argument that like most people would be like, bro, it's not that big of a deal. But I'm like, yeah, it is. or it can be a little do you know the wheels are turning let's crank this argument up and notch before before he

before he died I met I worked with Lamont Dozier from Holland Dozier and Holland and he was talking about stopping the name of love was that his wife caught him cheating and was like and said just

you know, just, just stop, stop. In the name of love, stop. Jim. It's like... Did she get production? That's the right question. Finally! It's happened.

Russ. Russ and Ross. Rouse. We're going to do an album called Rouse. But so many, so many great songs come from just those conversational moments. Oh, my God. Moments. That's why, like, I can't help, but like, when me and my girl will be talking. And I'm like, oh, it's such a great song. Yeah. It's just some regular shit, she said. But Jack Johnson Banana Pancakes was him walking downstairs, like, just, and his wife was making

banana pancakes. And he just had a guitar dicking around. And she was just like, oh, I like that. And then he wrote a song, but like, that's being dramatic. And it's awesome. I had like, there's, there's one song that I wrote. I had, I knew the melody and I knew it was a five-syllable word that needed to be the thing. But it was going to clearly was framed like that's where the title would go. Yeah. And it was sitting there for like a few weeks, just couldn't figure it out. I would think about it all the time.

And, you know, this is like 10 years ago. And my wife said something about like, you know, like I just don't even feel appreciated. And I was like, that's it. And it was like in the middle of like the thing. I was like, this is terrible. This is a terrible thing to interrupt this particular. argument. Love that, babe.

I am so sorry. I need to go and record this song. I've waited for this word and I, like, we will get past this. I promise. Just give me like, give me a half hour. I'm gonna go to serious.

It's a good song. We played, I think we even played it like at our wedding as like one of the, you know, it became like a thing. Well, that's so like, so you've experienced success with songs that didn't immediately come to you. You had to let them marinate for weeks and,

I have both. I mean, like, arguably. Honestly, I second guess it if it happens quick, because I'm like, surely this can't be that great if it came so fast. And I also second guess if it's like, dog, it's been a month and you're still trying to fit the words into this melody. Like, it's not it. Don't.

Yeah. Don't fit the words into the melody. No, don't freak out. Oh, well, have you met me? Yeah, exactly. It's like part of my whole thing. But, but like, you can multitask. You can do 10 sessions.

and have that one melody percolating for months or years. Who cares? Oh, my God, that would drive me fucking nuts. What's a song that just came off the cuff like that? All of the big ones. No way. All of them. Like, how long did it take you to write?

I mean, any of the big ones. 315 was an hour. The whole thing? Yeah, well, because the hook was already there. Yeah, right, fair. Losing control. So what I used to do, I used to just make a shit ton of beats. I had a playlist on my computer called

the vault and they were numbered original one two three four five six seven and i would just put the vault on shuffle and so losing control i had that beat for two months i didn't listen to it after i made it like i'm sure i did but then like forgot about it and i went downstairs when i when i was still living with my parents it was like two a m and i just had the vault on shuffle and that beat played and i did the melody for the hook like whispered the voice my one not to wake went up. Yeah. And the next day I went to the studio and recorded it.

But that was really fast, that whole process. What they want was 45 minutes. Psycho Part 2. I mean, all the big ones were really fast. So I think that's why I second guess. How long does it take you to write crazy? The new one? The newest single.

That was kind of a similar situation. I made the beat in Wyoming in the hotel room. And immediately when I made the beat. beat. I got the melody for the hook and I went home, was playing the beat on the speakers throughout the house, took a shower. I write all my shit in the shower. Like, all the melody ideas come in the shower. So playing it in the shower. Then I got the melody for the first verse and second verse. So I was just telling my boy, Steve, that I don't like writing in the studio anymore. I like recording in the studio.

Yeah, yeah. You execute in the studio. I want to write. You write while you're on a hike. I want to write while I'm living. And then go into the studio and record. If I'm writing in the studio, it's so like serious and pressure. And it's like the mic is just staring you in the fucking eyes. Like, still not yet, bro. I'm like, I'm part of the 4 a.m. club or 5 a.m. club i i like waking up that early and part of it is because i can come up usually write that melody first thing before i like i try not to pick up my phone unless i have a melody first wow which is a good hack that's a good discipline wow it's a good hack because the minute you start surfing looking at the stuff you're gone oh man i'm on instagram in minutes yeah my eyes opening totally

i got to stop that totally but if you could if you could be like i'll i'll look at instagram once i'm like once I've recorded my first melt, no matter how bad it is. Yeah. Just be, okay, I'm just going to sing whatever first comes. Damn. And then I come to the studio and I then have had even a couple hours to refine it. And then I execute the idea.

That's awesome. That's like you're probably still like in dream state damn near. Totally. Yeah, that's fucking incredible. There was a, there was a. I have a bunch of, a bunch of, almost all of my voice notes from songs that have come out. Just like half awake. Are like, yeah.

Yeah. There was a couple months where I was on a good routine of waking up at like seven. First thing I was doing was going in the studio. Because just that initial pure energy and clarity is... Ferell does that too. Oh, yeah? Yeah, there are people doing it. It's funny because I'm sure at some point you were the opposite too, but like I used to be,

I'm not going to the studio until it's 10 p.m. Yeah. And I'm doing 10 p.m. to 6 a.m. Yeah. Now that's funny. If I show up for that session, I am not very productive. I'm not going to that session. That's not even happening.

What time do you record normally now? During the day. 10 a.m. 11. Like, I'm not, nighttime comes. It's over with, I'm watching Netflix. Playing with my dogs. So, Jonica, it just released some music too.

Yeah. And she's going to be so amp that you are, that you just mentioned her name. She's seen every single one of these. Yeah, it's amazing. Yeah. Jonica, come visit us. Wow. There you go.

Boom. Done deal. Did that work? It's got me so many points. There's our anniversary gift. So I got you, I don't know, how do you call this? It's sort of a shout-out kind of. But is it inspiring to be in a relationship with somebody who's ambitious and creating music?

Extremely. And she's super talented and her ears are incredible. Her sense of melody is incredible. So it's just, yeah, it's, it's indescribable, man, to be in the studio with somebody that you love and making music, it's magical. There was a song she put out called Prideful where I, like, just did harmonies on, right? And I think it was our first time basically, like, really doing harmonies to that extent. And there was something really, once again, I'm dramatic. There was something really magical about, like, singing underneath her voice, like, harmonizing with the person that you're in harmony with in life.

You know, it was like, whoa, this is, like, yeah, it was poetic for sure. In your book, you talk about putting all the pressure of life satisfaction on creative rest. Yeah, still do. I feel like a man. I feel like a loser. if I don't make something. Like, I'm in a bad mood if creatively,

I'm not doing well in my life. It ruins my mood with everything. Like, I start going down the fucking drain of just, like, if it's been a week and I haven't made something I fucking love, I start just feeling like

everything else in my life is fucked up. And, you know, I don't know, it's bad. It's, it's, I'm too tied.

My happiness is too tied. to my creativity. One of my best friends, Dr. Eric Bean, is a sports psychologist and, you know, coach for people. And he says that for most people, if you spend 20% of your days with purpose, that that's enough to satiate people. Do you spend 20% of your days creating? 20%. So what is that? Four hours?

4.8. No. No, maybe that's why I'm miserable. 4.8. So I need to up my up my hours. No, it's a really interesting thing because it feels, you know, conversely, people say, you know, 20% more is what people think

they need to be happy is the same principle. 20% creating or just being purposeful? Well, that is, I think. Because that's vague. It is super vague. But I think the idea is like, we all have to deal with a bunch of shit all day. So it's like, can you spend 20% of your time doing something you love, I think is probably

more what that means? I need to do that more often. It seems attainable and yet it's so hard. Yeah. Yeah. It's so hard. Wow. That's interesting.

You know, you were obviously signed to Columbia and went through the major label system. Yeah. And you've been independent for the last. last few releases, do you find that the music has changed at all, other than natural growth, has the music changed at all because of your label collaboration? No. While I was with Columbia, I was still, like, it was such a bizarre situation that I'm sure they don't want me talking about, because they would never allow other artists to do it,

I'm sure. but I was putting out songs on tunecore while being signed. They were still letting me put out like Psycho Part 2, which has a billion streams. You know, I put that out on tune core for $9 while being signed. Why did they allow that? Because I told them that it was, yeah, it's a good question. I don't have a good answer. I think, you know what it was?

It was before my debut came out, right? So to set the scene of context, when I got with them, I had this massive back catalog of 300 songs, you know, and I had played them my debut album. They knew what it was, losing control of what they want to do myself and pull the trigger, had already been out. So they knew those were monsters and those were on the debut. So they knew what the debut was going to be. And I said, look, I have to keep putting out music. That's what I'm doing. That's like, I'm not doing this deal unless I can keep dropping.

And so I need to keep dropping. And it's all going to go back into the pot anyway. Meaning, these songs I'm going to put out over here on tune core are going to make the artist Russ bigger, which is going to make the debut album that we're splitting bigger. So just look the other way. And shout out to Imran, who's my A&R, who just was fucking awesome. he was just, I'm sure he was just taking fucking punches. Because he was telling them like,

it's fine, just let him, you know, and they were not. Yeah. Well, shout out, Imram, who's now co-presidents with my buddy Justin Ishak and has had maybe the craziest ANR year. Oh, my God, insane. Sabrina and Chapel Rohn in the same year. Crazy. But, you know, when you look at the music didn't change.

The brilliance of what that is. Yeah. I don't know that a label would be upset other than FOMO. That's all it was. They would be actually really pleased because, man, you know, no one is happier. No one's happier about Sabrina's success than Hollywood Records. Right. It's coming out on island, but like her back catalog often is this huge boost.

Right. So if you have a, if you put out something that's massive, it helps, it is a rising tide with an artist who has a hit. that all the songs start to gain more value. And I had just common sense conversations with them, meaning, look, guys, if you are not going to spend money on it, you don't get to have it. Because the only way you can justify having it is greed,

and I'm not going for it. So if you want to spend money on it, rock out. Let's discuss. But I want to just spend $9 to distribute it. and just throw it up on the DSPs and not market it or do anything. So what do y'all care? Right.

You're not, I'm not asked, it'd be different if I was like, yo, throw me a hundred grand for a music video, but I'm putting it down on tune core. It was just, hey, let me keep doing what I'm doing over here. Yeah, I mean, you started off by releasing, well, you didn't start off doing this, but when you started releasing a song a week

for three years or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How do you get off that train? I get the concept of doing it, and it's really smart, because it creates some sort of anticipation. People come to see what it comes out the next week. How do you jump off that elegantly?

It was tough. So I did 11 mixtapes first, and then I did a song a week for, yeah, 96 weeks, 100 weeks, something like that. And when it finally got to the point where like, okay, I did what I was trying to do, which was it blew up, you know. And now what's next is the debut album. I remember I uploaded a song on SoundCloud where it was me explaining to my fans,

the next release is the debut album and it's not going to be on SoundCloud because this is the elevation. And, you know, I think I did a really, I commend my younger self because he did a really good job. I did a really good job at keeping my fans in the loop about everything. When I partnered with Columbia, I posted the video of me signing the, you know what I mean, so that there was full transparency to bring him along for the ride. but how I ended up getting off that train was by kind of always having one foot on the train because I kept putting out songs weekly.

The debut comes out. It crushes. But within four months, I was doing weekly songs again for like five weeks. That's when I put out Wife You Up, which went golden. And then a couple months after that, I did weekly songs again. And then the second album came out. But then three months after that, I was doing weekly songs. So it was never really like, all right,

out you're about only here for me once every two years with a 12-song album i like making music and sharing it so consistency is something that was never gonna it's hard to do that with 20% of your time isn't being creative very true yeah i got to up that you have to be really efficient yeah it's it only somebody who's gone through therapy refers to their younger self as he true there is a separation though you know i mean if you were to start from zero with everything you know now, how would you do it? I would make a bunch of songs first. I think people don't have patience.

In order to be consistent, you have to be patient first. So I would be patient, stock up a bunch of songs. I would say I would stock up 24 songs that I know are fucking great. I would do what I can to just have video shot. obviously if there's no budget get that iPhone out and go crazy and I would do two songs a month with like

posting 200 fucking TikToks to each song straight up and I would just keep doing that over and over two songs a month one song a month minimum has to be your pace or I don't think you want it that bad simple some people don't want it that bad that's the reality

I want a six-pack but not that bad you know I mean like not bad enough to like really dial it in. I want it, but not that bad. Your lyrics are really vulnerable, but they also have like the self-assurance. Which one are you?

Both. Both. I think that's the, sometimes I wrestle with that of like feeling sure about myself in the future, but then also having doubts, you know,

and insecurities and all that. It's all wrapped up in one beautifully miserable, robust human experience. We talked about sampling in some of the songs. I'm missing crazy when, you know. Is it worth it to sample music when you can write hooks? Yeah. What's the correlation? I don't know.

I mean, like, why sample music? Like, why sample when you're, you know, you have the capability of writing everything? It's a little bit rhetorical because I think that there's reason to sample. But I'm just curious, what inspires you to sample versus create? There's something still just really special about sampling. I think it's hip hop. It's awesome. It's an art form.

And some people, shit is just crazy. And I want to sample it. You know what I mean? And there's also like textures you can't get anymore, bro. Like you go listen to shit from the 70s, the mics they were using, how they were recording it, the tone of the guitars. It's like, you know, I hate a lot of this pristine loop world we've gotten into where like they try to remake 70, like vintage soul sample pack for sale and it's too clean. It's like, yeah, all the chords are there and the melodies are there, but it's too

crisp. I don't hear any soul. I hear the soul chords, but I don't feel the soul in the music. You got to go to the 70s for that. your parents recognize your success being that they like your dad listened to Kansas and they're listening to Aba yeah no doubt when you're like hey mom and dad this is the kind of music I'm doing I'm about a rap yeah like how I this is weird but how was he uh my dad also love them like I don't know how I say this but like how was did you like how did you come out of the closet like I'm a rapper do you do you have a rapper do you have a family and how did like when did they realize that you were they always were supportive they

successful they weren't like what are you doing this is done they were supportive they just wanted me my mom wanted me to be in school though she wanted me to go to college which i did for like a semester and a half um and then we flew to l.a for my first time ever and my best friend boogis who i was just producing for at the time uh his song and video callie got played on MTV, which I produced, which you guys know, like, at the beginning of your journey, that's a huge win. That's enough to be like, I'm never, like, I made it. Like, I'm clearly doing the right thing.

I'm good enough. So I think that was a big thing for them, seeing that, to be honest, seeing like, oh, shit, you guys got on MTV. And then shortly after, like, my own song in video, a song called Young Pacino got on MTV. And I'm doing an interview on MTV. This is like 2013. So it was, you know, I made my first song ever 2011 and I think 20, yeah, 2012, 2013. I think 2012, I liked it did that MTV interview.

So it was pretty like, there was signs that this was maybe the right path pretty early on. So they were supportive. It wasn't, there wasn't much friction there. There was friction with my dad when it came to showing him my music and my art because he was just very, very, like, critical. You know what I mean? And, like, how was he critical? Critical in the sense of, like, this is what you're, you should have done this.

You should say this in the song. The video should have been this. It would have been better if you shot it like this. You know, just that kind of stuff. And at the beginning, when you're first starting this shit, like, you really need reassurance that, first of all, like, you know, I'm proud of you. for doing your thing and doing it. What do you think of this, though?

You know, I think it was, for me, you get the wrong no from the right person, you know? It, like, it stings. You're like, damn, man, I was just trying to show you for you to be like, yo, this is awesome that you're doing this. You know, obviously I'm an amateur. Like, you know, it's like, wait, if you first start playing basketball

and, like, you're losing the dribble because your handle isn't right. It's like, yeah, you could tell that kid, bro, you're like, that sucks. You know, you're not supposed to lose the ball, right? It's like, yeah, I know. Like, I just started. Well, the weird thing is, like, if my dad played music around the house and I remember

I used to make music that I thought he would like. And once I started, I opened for Jurassic 5 and I was like my first, my first like, Jurassic 5, like, Charlie Tuna. Yeah. Holy shit. My first, like, record deal is like, almost, it's hip hop on a acoustic guitar. Wow. And I was like, I toured, did the whole thing.

I realized I was doing something special once my dad said, I don't really get this. Mm. And it was this weird moment of, but this is good. Oh, wait a minute. Those are different things. Oh, yeah. It's okay if my dad doesn't get it. Sure.

Later, I wrote songs that he could sing in a karaoke bar. And that's when, like, I like, I like, points. But like at that time, my first record deals, he did not get the music. And it turned out that that's what I needed to do was create music that my dad didn't get. Yeah. Isn't that funny? I think we're all like searching early on for like our dad's approval. Totally. You know. And so that like to me that was just the friction there. But you know, we worked through that. Until they see like, oh, this like if they had that taste. Yeah. They would have maybe. pursued this job.

Right. But they, there can, the one thing that's weird about music is listeners have been, if you need 10,000 hours to be an expert. Yeah. Most humans that you know have listened to music for 10,000 hours. Yeah. So they are experts at listening to music. That's so true.

Which is very different than, you know, it's like you can't build a car. Like nobody knows how to build a car unless you've spent, like, it's just not. Yeah. You have to go actually. the thing. Whether you want it to or not, you've listened to 10,000 hours of music. True. So I don't have a problem thinking that, you know, somebody who's not in the industry having an opinion about music may actually have a good point.

True. So I don't mind listening to that as constructive criticism. But it is weird when you're thinking about creating the music, takes a certain consistency and tastes that you have to acquire and refine, just like a chef would. I wish I could go back to. Yeah, but I wish I could go back to like when I didn't know as much as I know now. Why? Because that was the like purest form of creation is when you don't know what you're doing.

You know what I mean? Were you better then? Not better than I was more free mentally. You know, like 2017 or 2015 when I'm making all those SoundCloud songs. I'm not even the audience was not a factor because there was no audience. You know what I mean? I had no fans. I had no audience.

Now, naturally, even if it's on a subconscious level, the audience creeps into the studio. They sneak in mentally sometimes because it's hard to just completely pretend that they're not there, you know, when you know they are. Like, it's like in 2015, I didn't have to play pretend. There was no audience. Now I have to play pretend and pretend there is no. audience. Is that your biggest challenge now? I think so. I think so. What do you feel like you have to

prove to your audience? It's not a matter of prove. It's not wanting to let them down. Fear of losing them, which is a bad place to operate from. Maybe it's a great place to operate from. I just think that I should not keep a fuck about what they think. But it's tough because as a musician, your entire livelihood depends on what people think about you. If you're doing this, if you're making a living, that's the other, that's the other thing. Like, I take care of my whole family off of music. So it has to keep working. You know what I'm saying? A lot of pressure. Yeah. Tons. And in 2015, why are you responsible for taking care of your whole family? Oh, this is, yeah. I think one, I like, I put that responsibility on myself.

It was like this noble thing I thought was, you know, and I'm proud of it. I feel honored and proud that I'm able to because I don't know what the situation would be if I wasn't doing this. Yeah. But yeah, it's a lot of pressure. It's a completely different dynamic to go from being 17, 18, 19, 19, 20 and you know you're just making music and there is no financial pressure on it to being in the studio and like I said it's not a conscious thought like this song I'm making I should be

hit because I take care of my whole family it's not conscious but I assume it lives in my body somewhere you know what I mean totally because I know that like I can't it's almost like my family can't afford for me to fall off. Yeah, that's not a fair. No, it's not fair. And it's not something that Dave, like I said, I kind of put it on myself. It just is what it is. I think it's weird.

Well, it's weird. There's therapy. Is what it is. You're cared. That's it. Is what it is? That was it. How many dollars can you save if you just say,

is what it is. Yeah, it was very short. Thank you for coming. That was great. Yeah. I think that there's, I try to have people walk in here as this, the studio that is, and say that we should, that the people who are king are, is the audience. Yeah. That it takes the ego out of it and be like, how far can we?

we entertain these people. What can we do that's like so unexpected? Okay. That pushes us to write something that is different than anything we've done yet. That's like, okay, they think we're going to come in with this. Let's entertain them. Let's do something outlandish. Yeah. Let's use these musical elements. You know, let's do, let's change up the game a little bit. Yeah. And it starts to be like this. Okay, so we now have this place we can go. Yeah. unique from where I would go by myself. Yeah. Because it's like, okay, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not placating.

It's not, to me, I think that it's a, it's a freedom that that instead of looking at them is like, okay, well, if they don't like this and they don't go along with me, then I'm fucked and so is my family. Instead, instead, it's like, instead. it's like, why don't we go and do something that they're not expecting? So then they're like, whoa, that was, like, maybe it'll bring more people onto the train. Yeah. And maybe we'll lose.

I think the audience is- Either you're going to lose them or not anyway. Anyway, right. You might as well go somewhere they haven't been yet, which you're doing by this new album. But with that being said, I might as well just make what I like. Yeah. Because to your point, I'm going to lose them or gain them anyway. So I want to like it.

But I do think the audience is king in the sense of picking hits, you know? Like I think artists, like you're wasting your time caring or thinking about is this going to be a hit? Because the people pick the hits. Like you could think it's this one. And just put the music out. And the people will tell you it's this one. You know, so I do think the audience is king in that regard. but I don't know, man.

That's so antithetical to how most record labels have traditionally worked where they pick the first five singles before the albums come out. And now it's like, it isn't that. Yeah, you don't have to play the guessing game anymore, though. Just the relationship, the artist fan relationship, I feel like has just been democratized, you know? And it's like, bro, put the music. This is kind of why I did my approach of a song a week

and why I still just throw so much shit at the wall. Because for me, it's a couple things. One, I love making music. Two, I love sharing it. And I love sharing it consistently. In three, I'm not going to waste brain power and bandwidth and energy and get attached to like this song needing to be the hit. I'm just going to put all this shit out.

And y'all will tell me, based off of the streams, which one is the one? And then I'll go do a video to that. And I'll take that to radio. And I'll do campaigns and da-da-da-da. it or I won't but that's you know like 315 was just week three of week 21 when I did 21 weeks in a row in 2021 that was just week three I dropped 18 more after that do you ever feel disappointed when you're you're pretty sure that you know what the single is yeah all the time oh my god what's a single that the audience didn't pick oh man bankrupt bankrupt is this song

This is, I believe, I think 2021. I wanted to try this new approach where I was like, song a month, big music video with it, because I'm betting on myself in the music, you know? And bankrupt was just, I think it's a beautiful song. I think the concept is incredible. I think the melody's incredible. I think the video is a super special video where it just looks exactly how the song sounds. So everything about it was perfect.

and shit did nothing. Like, god damn. Well, there goes 200 grand. Why do you think it did? Live to fight another day. Why did it do nothing? I don't know. Just not the one, you know?

That's also like, because I put out so much music, I do have a pretty good relationship with the songs from an emotional level. Like, it's all good. It's just not the one. And some artists, like most artists, the song is just not the one. it's not because that person didn't post it.

It's not because the label didn't spend money on it. That's not why this song didn't blow up. It's because the song isn't the one. Do you think that would have, all right, I want to go to the Spotify post. Sure. Where I feel like that, I want you to explain what the Spotify post is,

and then it would solve the issue of bankrupt on some level where you could be like, no, this is the single. And like the fans wouldn't necessarily know how other people are listening to it. True. But explain your Spotify post and why I'm referring to it. Yeah. So I think Spotify should just remove the numbers from the public. Like the stream counts, how many followers the playlists have, all that. It's not anyone's business except the artists, the company, Spotify. And if you're signed to a label, it's there.

It's that is like, it's almost like Spotify is showing the business part of the music business. Just show the music. Why are you showing the business? See what I'm saying? Like you showing stream counts now has fans involved in the business. And it's fucking it up because you get a bunch of, one, it's fucking it up for artists because you end up falling into this comparison game. I shouldn't even know what like the weekend.

song just did in the first 24 hour. Like, why is that? It's not my business. You know what I mean? I shouldn't be able to look and see and like, well, then I put mine out and it didn't, it's no one's business. So it's ruining like the fucking, you know, just headspace for artists. And two, it's making fans be fucking insane. And it's, it's shifting the conversation from music to numbers. And I think the conversation, if you're a fan, should always just be about the music. You shouldn't even know the numbers to justify, you know, why.

you like something or do you fear speaking out for or against DSPs? No. I mean, there's that like, oh,

fuck, maybe they, maybe that's why I didn't get playlisted on whatever, but do you think that it has an effect? No. And if it does, oh,

well, you know what I mean? Like, I have such a built-in fan base that like, they're going to listen to the song. You know what I mean? This is the argument that,

You can't take losing control off Spotify. My fans are going to go listen to it. A lot of people who are afraid to speak out on behalf of songwriters, artists, part of the fear is that they feel like they're being watched. And after I reposted your post, I got hit up by an executive from Spotify. Nice. He said, you love Spotify. And I responded.

I said, I do love Spotify for a lot of things. But I have some artists that are baby artists who are incredible. And I always send them to Apple. because I don't want somebody to listen to it and look and be like, well, but they only have like 5,000 monthly listeners. But the music is incredible. Right. And I specifically choose when to use Apple versus Spotify because of the count. And so one of those people also works in the business outside of Spotify.

I was like, but don't you do the same for your artists? You know, don't you also choose which DSP? to send your, you know, somebody in the world because you don't want to have them swayed by it. Yeah, but this song's not a hit. Right. No, it sounds clearly a hit. I think people need to be honest about the influence of social proof, you know, we're humans. And so when you see a price tag on a shirt that says $900 next to a shirt that says $10, you assume

the $900 one is a better shirt, is a better quality. Maybe the fabric. You just assume it's better, most people. And so same with music. Same with if you're scrolling on TikTok and you see a post and you're like watching it. Your eyes immediately go to like the likes and comments. I know for me and I know a lot of other people when I talk to them because you're seeing like, has this been deemed funny?

Has this been deemed worthy? If now I'm going to keep scrolling. And so to your point with artists with 5,000 monthly listeners, you assume there's a part of your brain as a consumer that assumes this is of low quality. It's probably not that good. And yet now consciously you might try to like combat that by saying, no, I'm going to make it a point to listen to this and whatever because it has 5,000. But we can't deny the influence of social proof.

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We talk about this in the Banks interview a little bit, but like the best thing I've ever written is like, you know, the number one song on it has less than a million streams. But that album is clearly the best thing I've written. Yeah. But it's just like it's just not in the, like, it's not in my billions club. Yeah. Of songs. You know, it's just not. It's not crazy, which is a crazy concept.

And it's like, but these songs are not in the same category. It's clearly better. But it's also isn't that like, why is a million a milestone? That's an arbitrary. Why is an 800,000? You know what I mean? It's like how every, and I feed into it. You know what I mean?

Like, I like numbers. I love numbers. I love plaques. I love all this. You're just saying it should be consumed by yourself. It should be only privy to like the business people. Like the artist, the labels, the companies. We should know the business.

The fan shouldn't know the business. I mean, Instagram got rid of it for a reason. Instagram should turn it off as a company. They got rid of it, except for once you get to reels, then you start showing it again. But when it got to likes,

it was like, or for pictures, they got rid of it because it was unhealthy. Yeah. So it's not, you know, the only problem is I don't think fans, it like affects most fans help.

Maybe your fans because they're rabid. It affects. I think like, I think for, I think for fans it does affect them. Just maybe not yet on a personal level, but it affects how they consume shit, you know? And I think the reason why Spotify has such an issue with fake streams compared to Apple

is because once you put up a scoreboard, people are going to try to cheat. Apple has no scoreboard. Yeah. We don't know the score. And neither does anyone else. So that's not a metric we care about. Nobody knows what songs are doing on Apple. You see a chart, but you don't know how many streams.

Spotify, you see streams. So you're like, oh shit, what can I do to make my number say 60 million in the first week instead of 20? Because now it's a game and now you're going to try to cheat. And I love Spotify, but that's the reality. You know, they allow fake streams. They've already came out and set it indirectly by saying, if we find out you're faking over 89% of your streams, we're going to hit you with a fine. So I can fake 87% of my streams and we're good. That's fucking crazy.

That's what they said without saying it. Do you shift the way you release music now versus when you started because of how music is consumed? Like, I don't think you can do a song a week now. I think I can because that's like something I'm so synonymous with. My fans like are conditioned for it. But I don't think song a week is the wave just because back when I was doing song a week, I was doing it on SoundCloud. And SoundCloud, you could upload the song right now.

Yeah, right. You know what I mean? So I would drop a song on a Tuesday and then next Monday and then maybe that's Sunday. And then once, you know, it was fun and sporadic and free. Now it's so rigid Fridays, Fridays. And you don't have to drop on Fridays. But the DSPs have kind of strong-armed everyone by saying, well, Fridays is when we're refreshing the playlists. And so if you don't drop on the Friday, you might get fucked with that, you know.

But if you're just an up-and-coming artist, I guess you should probably just be dropping whenever. Yeah, I think song a week is just too much right now. I would do two songs a month, Max. When you're talking about all the collaborations that you've now kind of gotten used to, you know, you've worked with some of the biggest artists in the world. What's it like working with Ed Shearren? Nuts. I wasn't in the studio with him. He's just an insane, insane guy for how down to earth he is,

for how big he is, is bonkers to me. And yeah, he's just, it was inspiring because like I said, we weren't in the studio, but his whole career and his approach is inspiring. Because I'm like, you've done everything. You've beat the game of the music business 60 times over, you know. And it's cool to see him still want to, like, you can tell he's just making music because he loves it now. And like, he was obviously always doing it for that, you know. but I think there's certain like NBA players you look at and like oh you could tell they would just play for free

because they just loved the game. Yeah. It's like Ed Sheeran has some of the biggest songs ever. He could just retire and be like, I'm done. But he's doing it for the love of music, which I just commend. He also can freestyle. Yeah.

Like legit. That's a great rapper. It's a great rapper. In a name-droppy moment, yeah. I was in New York. working with Benny because we worked a lot and this was a while ago because I think it was a Mac Miller show

and we were backstage in a green room and it was a circle of Amar Malik who's like an A list writer, dear friend Benny Sunny Scrillix and Ed Shearren and everyone's freestyling and you're just hoping like that the freestyle ends right before me

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can't compete with these guys. Yeah. I can freestyle melodies. No one wants to hear scatting right now. Yeah, too, too, dot. This is not going to win. I'm not going to win fans with these guys.

Yeah. But it was just fun to see, like, in a close space, there's, everyone's drinking, but nobody's, like. Hammered. No, one, nobody's hammered yet. And, but it was more the idea that nobody was there for any other purpose. Like, it just started. Yeah. Yeah.

Somebody's like, I'm going to start freestyling. Like, you're such like, you're like, you're like, you know, like when you're talking about taking care of the families of one of the things that you do so well is freestyling, which I don't have to make you do without a beat right now. But, you know, as somebody who freestyles, do you feel like you need to be inspired to start? Good question. No. Yes and no, but I think I think sometimes inspiration is overrated. I think just like showing up and doing it can sometimes be what curates the inspiration. You can be inspired by you showing up and doing it.

You know, I used to kind of take it as a test from like the universe when I was younger in the studio wasn't at my house. was at Boogius's house and days where I felt so uninspired, I would always be like, this is the test. Are you still going to go? And so I would make it a point to go to the studio when I was uninspired. And so many times I would write big songs when I showed up uninspired. Because it's almost like the showing up gave me that motivation. You kind of get like dopamine from showing up when you didn't want to show up, you know.

So I think just relying on inspiration. is you're not going to make that much stuff. Yeah, I think they say something like amateurs need to be inspired. Yeah. It's almost like going to the gym, you know. Yeah, yeah. You'll just get in the groove of it. I think when you know you have to go to the studio every day.

Yeah. Like, that's when all the preparation starts for me. Yeah. It's like I come up with ideas because I know I have to go somewhere. If I'm just, you know, it's like that gets me excited because of, oh, I got to, especially This is the collaboration thing. Yeah. This was why it would be fun to collaborate.

Yeah. Is because if you knew you were coming in here every day. Yeah. In a healthy, competitive way, yeah. I will guarantee I come in with better ideas than you. That's not true, by the way. But I would,

it might be. I would want to set the tone that when I come in with an idea, you're going to be like, oh, my God. Yeah. And then you start coming in with like, okay, I got an idea. and it starts to become this thing and then you end up with multiple good ideas because you start going in

and you're like, I can't go to the like, you're a basketball guy. You can't like you can't just go and just, you know, you want to make sure you're the last one in the gym. You want to make sure that you're showing that like the other players that like, oh no. Yeah.

I'm not here to just fuck around. I never thought about it like that where it's like, yeah, if you make it a point where you know you're going to the studio so you have to have ideas. Yeah, you don't have to use it as like this place of like just a blank slate. Not to mention that's also fun,

but I have a lot of experience of going in a studio where I thought it was a blank slate and something great's going to happen. Nothing good happened. Yeah. You know, which is okay too. Sure. You got to write through those days too.

Yeah. I think I just move around with so many ideas. I think all songwriters and producers do. I have notes of unused verses and, you know, I have a Shazam fucking list of, songs to like sample potentially song concepts written in my notes song called this you know like i just move around with so many ideas that i feel like at any time i'm prepared one of the coolest things you said is that you have the vault yeah and i have a lot of

unwritten tracks that i bring out for random things but i better remember which ones they are yeah and if you have a vault of tracks or a vault of songs like yeah going back and being willing this is the thing about when you were like that's how i caught a lot of weeks later yeah Yeah, months later for losing control. That's crazy. I know. But that's the writing when you said, oh, I don't have the patience.

Like, maybe you didn't remember the melody. Or like, sorry, when you were saying melody and you don't have the lyric and like, it's not. But see, that wasn't that long. That was like I had the melody and I had the words. And then I went to the studio the next day and did the verses. Yeah, that's so good. You know?

But yeah, I got to get back into doing that. I think what happened was back then I was just making so many fucking beats because I also had just so much time, free time, and I was just making so many beats because I was producing for other people and I wasn't really making my own shit yet. And then even when I did start making my own shit, I just had so much time and I'm making so many beats. And now it's kind of like when I sit and make a beat, I make a beat and then make the song. It's just way more efficient now.

Like I'm not just sitting down, cranking out 10 beats. I'm making one and going into the studio immediately and making the song. Like, I don't think you can have it both ways. I don't think you can say in the beginning of when you're like, I wish I could go back to like the joy of when you just started. Yeah. And also say, I am happy that I'm as efficient as I am. Like the efficiency comes from the years of going in blindly.

Yeah. And that's like those things are opposites. True. True. I wish I had more beats I was sitting on. The other thing that happened is early on I had no connects. I had no contacts. There was no producers reaching out.

Now I have so many different packs from so many different producers, so many beats. That can be kind of lazy. Like I don't have to wake up. Like it used to be if I wanted to make a song, I had to make the beat. Now it's like I'll just go through my Dropbox folder of a million different packs from like great producers. Let me go through the boy wonder pack. through the ill mind pack and it's like you know i mean what's going to happen you know when you get into ai stuff and it's only going to get easier and more lazy yeah that's why it's like i need to be

more disciplined and like get back on the just go make beats you know just to create like i have a new vault the playlist is called new vault on my computer and it's like 150 beats but i don't sit and just put it on shuffle like i used to which which i should because i used to get a lot of songs like that. Like a lot, a lot. Because like I said, I would want to make a song. I didn't have beats from other people. So I can't go put the boy Wendipack on shuffle. I had to put my pack on shuffle. And a bunch of songs like that. Are you happy? Oh, oh, man. No. I think I think yes and no. I'm just basing it off with the visceral reaction. I just got in my gut. It was just a punch of like, Maybe that means no.

I think, man, I think I think I used to think that I'm supposed to only be one emotion post success. I didn't allow room for sadness or grief, disappointment, anything. I thought that once you get successful, I'm supposed to be, like you just said, just happy in general. and if I'm not, there must be something broken, something wrong. And I think for me, I have times where I'm happy and I have times where I'm sad. I have times where I'm angry. I have times where I doubt. But I am proud of what I've done.

I'm proud of who I am. I can finally acknowledge, like, the work I've put in and what I've built. And that makes me feel good about myself. And there's still more I want to do, you know, and there's still shit with my family and, you know, that we're working on. And, you know, there's still all those hurdles. But this phase of my life is kind of about accepting that it's going to be a constant juggle of like grief and gratitude simultaneously.

You know, and I think in the past, I've just resisted that. And that's kind of what this album is about. It's not necessarily a concept album where I'm telling a story. It's just an album that represents the phase of my life that I'm in, which is just accepting life's unpredictability. And in the past, I think because when I was just a little bit younger and just more immature, I just thought that it's all supposed to be good now. I got money and success and fame and whatever.

And it's like, there should be no problems. And when problems happened, it threatened my idea of who I was. It threatened because I was like, well, I'm this successful person. and like there shouldn't be any problems. And what do you mean? My parents are getting divorced. What do you mean all this hate came in? Like, people don't like me?

How? What's not to like? But now what I've realized is it's always going to be something, you know? There's always some bullshit going on. And I used to just run around playing whack-a-mole, like driving myself crazy, thinking there was holes in my boat, you know? and running around trying to plug the hole. And it's like there's no holes in the boat.

You're just in the boat in the ocean, so water's going to get in sometimes. And that has been extremely liberating. Because to go from this with life, strangling it to make sure it goes your way and I refuse for there to be a problem. And if there is a problem, it fucks everything up for me

to loosen the grip and just be like, yeah, I know there's going to be. be some more fucked up shit that happens but i know it's going to be some more great shit that happens and i have to zoom out and look at my life as a robust experience which by doing that i find understanding and acceptance that there's going to be bad shit good shit grief gratitude and that's all part of life and there is no life that i can create that eliminate bad things from happening sadness. That is just part of it.

What's success now? If you've already reached success, what's... I think, yeah, oh my God. I am going through that right now in therapy. I keep having existential crisis moments of like, what is the point? You know?

It gets pretty, yeah, gets pretty like... It's like when you sort of reach the end of, well, I'll frame it by saying this. I think for me, it's the, the phase of my life I'm also in right now is trying to create more balance, trying to not live to work, but work to live, you know, like taking a month to just live in New York and walk around and eat food and be with my girl and my dogs. Did you do that? I'm about to, you know, because I'm like, I can't just keep living like this. Like, I got a, you know what I mean? And, and, and, and I'm not. And, and, and, you know,

And so... Speaking of Ed, I remember when he was like, he shut off his phone for like nine months or something. I think like nine years. Or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, I do. I get to the point sometimes where I'm like, what is the point of all this, you know? Because you kind of reach the end of the material world.

You've bought, like, for me, I've bought everything. Like, I bought all the cars. I bought the house. I bought all the jewelry. My mom has her beach house. My sister has her, you know what I mean? Everyone has all their, what my business manager calls the big purchases. I did all that like a million times.

You know, I've traveled damn near. I think my bin app is like at 26% of the world, which is high, I think. So I've been to a lot of places. It's kind of like, all right, what is the point now? It's like, make the song to put it out so that what? So that you feel good. So then what? So then you tore it?

and then like, then what? Then you put out more. So that was, you tour it. It's like, it starts feeling a little monotonous, which is why I think now I'm getting into acting, which feels really exciting. Because it's just a new mountain to climb. I'm sure I'm actually distracting myself

from getting to the root of the problem. But till then, I will climb this other mountain and hope there's a different summit. Yeah, it was fun seeing you in the M-night Shyamalan movie, which is, you know, working with obviously, like, legends all around, which is why. Mind fuck.

Yeah, completely. Then there's a movie coming out this year where I'm like the co-lead of. Really? Yeah. It's called Don't Move. And that was what, that movie is why I was open to collaboration. Oh, interesting. Because that was the first time in my life.

I didn't grow up going to church. I grew up playing sports, but, you know, I'm 32. I haven't like been on a team in a team environment forever. That was the first. time where I saw the value of community. It's five days a week, 13 hours a day with the same people all trying to accomplish the same goal. And we're going through hard stuff together and coming out on the other side. Okay, it's like the foundation of secure attachment. You know what I mean? Not to get too therapeutic. But it was a most fun I've ever had,

man. Most fun I've ever had more fun than like any music. ever it was invigorating i remember showing up being so nervous thinking that i was going to have to drink my way through it there was no way i was going to do that sober what impossible and i didn't i didn't fucking and i didn't do sober and i didn't drink at all on set or off and it was just such a blast and like afterwards i sent like numerous voice memos to the director and like other castmates of just like bawling my eyes out like just got no response no okay i got a response no but like just like it's a weird thing like just like being like holy fuck man like this would i needed this so bad i didn't realize how much i needed this like community working on stuff with people like holy fuck this makes me

realize how lonely my music career has been because it's just me in my fucking basement making songs and it works like 315 is me by myself that is a massive song. Handsomer, me by myself, at 10 in the morning. It went platinum in nine months. No samples. You know what I mean? Like it works. It is not, it is, it's just lonely though, you know? And so I was like, how do I recreate the spirit and energy of community in my music world? How am I going to do this? Because after doing the movie, going back to music felt like sad a little bit. it felt kind of like, all right, bye everyone. I'm going to go back to my house by myself now

and hang out for three months in the room and look at the four walls until a platinum plaque comes. I suppose the difference is like, unless you, when you go see that movie, you'll see the collective response. But when you perform in front of a few thousand people, you're going to see very quickly how not lonely those other people feel. Right.

So I think it's funny when I talked with John Mayer about this like during the pandemic, he said some artists need live shows to find our place in the universe. And it's so true, it's like, when I do shows is when it becomes like real. Because you're like, oh, I was by myself. But now this music has created a community, but you don't feel part of that community. Like, I don't necessarily feel a part of my fan base. see what I'm saying like I'm the artist I'm the creator I'm on stage it's it's you got to even

think about the dynamic it's like you're exalted you're like a pastor you're like a you're on a stage they're down there you don't feel amongst you know and so the movie made me feel a part of a community and so that's why this album was like for me the most fun I've had in a really long time making music because it was me and like I said me Jake and Kiery in a group chat just making shit and like everyone responds fast we're all like up all fucking hours of the night trying to just make songs because we're geeked off of the excitement and songs are getting made quick and it was just exhilarating man it was exhilarating and I would love to you know the the bigger vision is you know renting a

place for a month and a half having super ill creatives and like this is what we're doing but i like i don't trust myself enough to do that as a person because i feel like i'd be an asshole i'm worried i'd be alone either like i think i think the true the creation and curation of i'm just worried i would be too micromanagy yeah but you'll never you'll never know unless you try I know. I'm, look, I'm, I love writing. Have you done something like that? Oh, yeah.

I mean, I've written songs that you know from those camps. Really? Yeah. What are the, so like, because I've talked to Beebe about this, like these writing camps, but. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just a bunch of writers. There's no art. It's just, like, nobody's, is anyone recording?

Like, they're recording, but. Well, you're talking about, like, most songwriters, you know, were artists at one point. Sure. They're not aspiring to currently do it. Yeah. So, you know, you have a little bit of both of those. things in the equation you can have you know like I'm not currently trying to be in a boy band but it doesn't mean I can't write for a boy band and go and do a thing what is the what's

the process I always think about like the awkward moments you know when you watch movies they always edit out the awkward moments like how did you get into the room what I mean like what was the high and buy like you know what I mean so like what do you guys do during the day when you're not in the city how do you determine hey we're all in Aspen Colorado for the next two months I did that. Like, when do you go to the suit? What if that person is skiing? I've been to so many of these things.

What if that person is skiing? No, you know what I mean? How does this work? That's really funny. Most of the people who do camps are there for the purpose of creating music, although I'll give you. Like, when do they go live? I'd feel like an asshole because if somebody went skiing, part of me would want to be like, you schmuck, you're supposed to be here writing.

But then part of me would be like, you're supposed to be living. I've seen all the things, right? Yeah. And it really depends on what it is. I need an adult to accompany me there. Chaparun. If you were to go to an island somewhere that has a studio, like you are doing a mix of all of it.

You're doing it with each other. And so like you end up everyone skiing together, not on the island. That'd be weird. But if you're at Aspen, like you're when we, I've done one in Aspen. It was just beautiful home. And reality is like, it was like,

okay, so from like 11 a.m. to 6 p.m. Yeah. Like you go in that room with this person, you go in that room and somebody's organizing it on some level.

Who is that organizer? So it depends. It's an executive or is it an artist? It depends what that. That one was just like a group of people writing. So it was like,

you know, maybe it was the publisher or whoever was funding it. But if it was like, it all depends, man. You make up your own rules. But if it's an artist, we will,

we do writing camps here. We've got three rooms here. So I tend to curate like what kinds of people should be in this room so that way Russ could walk in and be himself. Yes. And not be redundant. Yes. So like I'm trying to create sessions that are like that. And what I, I'm good at adapting because I can, if I have to do drums, I can do drums.

Sure. And if I have to do, you know, write lyrics and melodies, I can do that. So like you go into rooms and you just, you are what you need to be there. Yeah. But those camps, man, they can be really inspiring because you show up and you're like without name dropping a bunch of people. And I can later. But like you're in these rooms. These are Hall of Famers.

And I'm not going to show up here and just be like, you know, if you're there long enough, you will run out of your ideas. I would love to do that. But like here's. It's an achievable goal. Here's an issue I have. Okay. I don't like waiting on people from a funding perspective. I have money.

But the issue with that is if I'm funding it, now I care about things that I don't want to be caring about as a creative. See what I'm saying? Like even from a movie perspective, right? Like talking with like directors and whatever, it's like, yeah, I could put up whatever it is, 2 mil and let's go make the movie. But if I put up the 2 mil, now I want to see every take.

and now I'm going to be looking at it. You know what I mean? It don't cost that much. Well, I know, but also like, depending on what it. Depends what it is. Depends what it's for. If it's for an artist, then the expectation is the artist is paying for. If it's for everyone to write together, then everyone's paying for.

Or whoever has the studio's like, what I would, here's, you tell me how to do this. There are no rules. What I would want to do is get, see, I don't even know how to do that, actually. Get one house, a bunch of songwriters. minute, I'm at a hotel nearby, I show up, bounce around rooms, and that's like a month. Yeah, that's basically, that works. How does everyone get paid? Well, this is why songwriters shouldn't have their publishing pillage, because they don't get it.

I would see, I would be paying people like because you showed up. That's nice of you. That's crazy. So they're just showing up, hoping they get a placement and then they'll get paid. Oh no, I wouldn't do that This is our issue, man This is why Songwriters, if you want to get paid

For just showing up Come fuck with me Yeah, no, that's a huge difference If you were a guy who's going to Advocate for songwriters To get fees up front Or to show up You will get every big writer there is

Oh, right, that is That doesn't happen, man I wouldn't even entertain Not doing that Yeah, that doesn't happen As I think about it, Do you think that that would not incentivize people? Like, would the songwriters all of a sudden be like,

because are they working a crazy sort of work rate because they're like, I know I'm not going to get paid unless I make a song? Most songwriters that you know of by name are the guys who are playing in the NBA who would play for free. Who would play for free. And that's part of the issue is that

because songwriters are willing to write for free, they do. Yeah, see, I personally, I would just feel bad if I had a bunch of people out there for a month and like, you didn't pay him. You should talk to every record label that exists. And by the way, this is the problem is that if they pay, if they pay songwriters, they expect the work for higher aspect. And no songwriter in their right mind should ever sell their publishing to a record label for nothing. So what's an appropriate fee for a songwriter for a month? Who's the songwriter? Hall of Famer.

You can probably, I mean, I want, I want, I want, I want, how many writers do you recommend? I really want to negotiate on behalf of all songwriters, because the short answer should me, you should give him $100,000 to show for a month, but that's not realistic. How many songwriters is a good size camp, where it's not too many, like, what do you think the sweet spot is? The, I think you should have per room no more than. four people, including yourself. Shit, in all four our songwriters.

That's a lot. Oh, no, no, no. I'm talking about people who are creating the beat together, so therefore the beat maker can be a songwriter. You could have... I'm talking about strict lyric melody. How many lyric melody writers for a sweet spot? Here's Russ, a generational producer who can provide the beats that people are going

to write to. Yes. Then you are essentially bringing on people to, for half, the copyright because you're showing up with the beat you're not being doing the beat afterwards or in the room but you're showing up with the beat beforehand we're all writing to it yeah you're gonna have you could probably have two writers per room and how many rooms do you think three four as many as you want but i don't what's a sweet spot yeah because sometimes i don't think you really want more than you can handle and i would say like when we do i mean i maybe i'm biased because we have a studio

with three studios you know so it's like it's like it's nice to like walk in each room and be able to say to each room like, I think we can beat the concept here, then go to the next one. Three rooms, two riders. Six riders, if you wanted to pay them for their time for the month, what do you recommend so that I don't offend? The Hall of Famers?

Yeah, so I don't offend. I think you could for a whole month. Yeah. Is that a long riding camp? That's a long-ass writing camp. Oh, really? A week. Really?

Two weeks. You'd be done with the album. Okay, two weeks. Two weeks. Yeah, you could probably pay everyone 100,000. If you have the same writers every day too. Yeah, yeah. If you wanted to really dive in and be emotionally committed.

Let's go with 100,000 each and you'll have the best writers. Those same people that would want or would take 100,000, they would do it for free. The Hall of Fame writers would do it for free. I mean, maybe if it's... From free to 100 grand, 50,000. It goes like a huge window. Michael Jackson showed us up again. No, I don't know, man.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm in my head, I'm thinking Hall of Famers. Like, maybe free is a good idea. If you're going to, it depends who you're asking, man. I mean, like, and the reality is like if you show up and say, all right, I want to do a writing camp with these six writers and we are doing the whole album these two weeks. Yeah. So you're going to end up with, you know, let's say 10 times.

So you're going to have 30 tracks. in two weeks. Yeah. You know? Oh my God. If not more than that. I want to go make the album that 12 year old me would have loved, which is just like straight acoustic singer-songwriter,

fucking just pop punk melodies and maybe I'll rap on the verses sometimes. You know? That's a plausible scenario. I don't think that you necessarily need to do it. I'm just saying writing camps can cost. I want to do it. Writing camps can be free. It all depends on what you want.

And then like you could, if you want to BB who you're close with and you're like, you know, hey Ross, come and do this. And like, yeah, okay, let's do it. You know, like you just would figure it out. And you, you, if you were like, if you were like, like, I send people stupid amounts just to pull it up. But that's why people want to keep writing with you. Probably. Let's, yeah. It's taking care of them.

We don't like you, but that money is fucking great. If you think that there's not an element of loyalty that happens. No, sure, sure. willing to like, that means that you are taking care of their family too? Yeah. Yeah. Like, there are producers that I work with on different spectrums of the success level that pay me part of their production fee as a like, thanks for this for that.

Yeah. Yeah. And then there's some that are like never pay the production fee. The ones who never pay the production fee often don't ask for publishing, by the way, because they understand that rule. Got it. So there's like a little bit of that both. And if it's this world of like...

So a two-week writing game, you get 30 songs? Like you can get 30 songs in two weeks. If we structure it, right, yeah? Damn. Because you're talking about like, you're talking about like, you know, five days a week, three rooms going. If you have people who are cracking the whip, you should be able to do that.

Who would you say are the Hall of Fame writers? Give me six Hall of Famers. I mean, I can just look at our last season. Yeah. Like in our last season, top liners. Jared, write these down. For real. If you look at the last two seasons, just pure top liners,

I mean, some are kind of mixed. So like a Bellion's kind of mixed. And Amy Allen is probably on there. I know Steph Jones has been on. Ashley Gourley's been on. You know, Ashley just had his like 90th number one in country. 90th? Something like that.

He's like a real, he's like Michael Jordan. of, you know, he's like on a different level. 90? Yeah, he's been on this podcast three times and it's already dated because he's had, it's like, it's insane. Also, sweet person. But I'm trying to think of like other top liners that we've had. I'm just blanking out.

It's not difficult for me to come over the list. That's fucking nuts, bro. But like if you just look right now, it's like there's certain people who like, who are really consistent, you know. But again, that may not. all those people may or may not be right to have in your camp. Sure. You know, I think the gist is that what you should do is find people like there's a,

there are scenarios, you know, Joe has wrote, you know, smashes at a camp where they were, they didn't care that there were six, seven, eight writers on a song. That was their vibe, but they would get, they would just hang out and do that. That's what the, the Julian Benetta John Ryan camps are with Teddy Swims and Mickey Echo, who's a great writer. Wow.

could have on like a bunch of these people who show up who are like having a fucking blast and then they write hits together yeah um damn i didn't even know like this fucking world existed bro i'm just sitting in my fucking basement but that's tough man you know what i mean like and you know what you get out of that people are fucking employing the avengers to like but it's like no wonder you're catching his dog like i could do that my sleep too yes like Jesus but wow you know what you're doing? That's fun though. You know what you have? 100% songs. Yeah. You know what those guys don't have 100% songs? Yeah. Most of those people can write 100% song if they want to. And may have had yeah. And may have had 100% songs out. Like I've had 100% songs out. I'd love to do that,

man, because it's like collaboration is just fun. It's just fun. It's fun. And for me, I would be like, I am one of those people. I don't care if 20 of us wrote the hook on this. Like, I don't care about the splits of that. Right. Right. In that, in that, in that, in that, in Like, I'm the label and I don't give a fuck. So this is how the camp would work for you. If I'm just spitballing on what the camp would be. Tell me. You'd have three rooms going.

Everyone would do a very structured right, right? Okay. Everyone would just be writing. You'd walk in. You'd be like, I like this. I don't like this. I think we can beat this. Why don't we try a different bead?

Let's do that. Keep going. You'd be in each room just and you'd catch some stuff. You'd like, I want to work on this one tonight or this one tomorrow. Yeah. You probably need that third week just to finish it. Sure. You'd be running in and out.

And I can. promise you that the two or three of the songs are going to happen when everyone eats dinner at 6.30 or 7 o'clock or whatever. And it's going to be like 8.30. Everyone's done eating. And someone's like, you know, everyone's cracked open that bottle of 1942. Fuck, yeah. Let's go into that studio and just kind of see what happens. I'm about a push tour. I want to do this so bad. And it becomes a thing with that. This is so fun. But this is the collaboration thing. That's why I think it's important for 100 percenters to experience collaboration. why it's also important for people who only collaborate

to try to write a song by themselves. Yeah. And I think I've done it that way for so long that that's why collaboration is just so attractive to me now. And you should, yes, and you should look at that as the next album that you released to be like, I did this one with as many friends that I wanted to bring for this two weeks

and we did this whole thing in two weeks and becomes part of the story and somebody who can release music quickly. you just roll with it. And you do it. And then you go and after that, you're like, I want to do 100% album. And then you go back and say,

I want to do collaboration and do different collabs. Like, let's find other people. Here's the thing, though, that I did notice that you were saying, it made me think of this. When I look at my top songs, this is when my business brain starts doing too much, but it's like fair. When I look at my top songs,

the majority are the ones that are 100%. So I have this theory, and it's like proven by that, that as much as I love collaboration, I don't think my fans like it. You know what I mean? Also, the more writers... It's like they can almost feel that this wasn't 100% you. And so we don't... It's cool, but like, granted, best on earth, big song for me.

But that's like an exception to this rule. Everything else is like, all my biggest shit is just... me. I love it. I think that when you write with fewer people, the song tends to be more unique. Because if you're going to have multiple people have opinions on the song, it's going to become more homogenized and it'll probably be something that multiple people think is cool versus two people. Now, you're also more likely to write a piece of shit by yourself. Yes. Because you have, you don't necessarily. You may not have somebody being like, you can beat that, you can beat that, you can beat that, you can beat that. Yeah.

Versus like collaborating, you get through songs quicker. Yeah. But again, part of it can be the ownership of this was one that I wanted to do with friends because I didn't want to do it alone. This is what it sounds like. Yeah. And let it be the, that's the story. That's the story. Yeah.

In theater, there's the story that's on stage and there's the story of the story, like how the show is. made. Both those things almost have equal balance in the lower theater. Wow. You know? So like how an album is made and and what's on the album are are both valid when you're doing multiple, you know, when you're doing this press tour. Wow. I want to do that ASAT, man. So collaborating with two people from Australia is part of the story. It is for sure. Yeah. All right. Last thing. I'm going to just name five things. I just want to hear what it comes up. your head your mom i love her your dad love him jonica i love her you're gonna name my dogs i don't know your dog but okay we'll go with your dogs Chloe and Otto uh Chloe changed my life

I'm about to go into a whole fucking monologue you guys ready um no my Frenchie like that was the first time I really had to be responsible for someone else's life you know and it seems dramatic but if you have a dog like you get it if you don't have kids and you have a dog it was just oh shit i really like this living breathing thing relies on me for food and shelter and all that and it was just i feel like that is getting her was the first step in almost like adulthood in a sense you know i mean like actually having to be responsible for someone else outside of myself i don't know it was a big thing for me Russ, the artist. It's my favorite artist.

Yeah. And that was an epiphany I had the other day, man. I was like, I was in the shower and I'm playing the album from top to bottom. And I hadn't heard it because I try not to like listen to, you know, because I don't want to overplay it. But I'm listening to it. And I had that like rare moment we get as artists where like you can hear your shit from like a fan's perspective as if you don't know what's coming next. And I'm like, man, this guy fucking checks all the boxes for me. Like, the beats are super hard.

The rapping is great. But then he does melody. And the melody's cool. And there's real shit he's talking about. And he's making all the choices I would make if I was the art. You know what I mean? I'm just like, man, I became my favorite artist. So that's a win for me.

There aren't a lot of people who are, thank you for doing this podcast. Thanks for having me. There aren't a lot of people who are, a lot of people aspire to do a lot of things. There's a neon sign on that wall. This is geniuses finished things. Yeah. There aren't a lot of authors, actors, label executives, publishers, beatmakers, lyricists, melody writers, let alone all those things.

I can't be like I can't feel happiness for somebody else Yeah But I can acknowledge that What you're doing is achieving the process Wow Like you're doing the things Yeah You're not aspiring to do all those things

You're doing the things Yeah. That's why that is happiness to me. Yeah, that's real. Just doing it. Because you're going to, if you look at the success of things, like, come on, that's. It's arbitrary. The first thing that people who've had success realized is like there's an element of, you know, it's arbitrary.

It's luck. Yeah. It's because you put in the effort, you do the things, but the process of complete. leading these objectives and going for them, that's happiness. I think that's my best attribute, though, is just thinking I can do things. I think I've gotten really far off of just delusion. Just like, yeah, I could do that. And it's almost like it's not even a arrogance.

It's just I think no matter how many doubts I've had throughout my life or whatever, I still always think I can do something, like whatever it is. and I think moving off of that charge of just feeling like I think I can do it. Why can't I do that? Why can't I write a book? Why can't I act? Why can't I, you know, that's like enough to get you going. And then like you're saying, once you start going and start doing it, you realize you can do it.

Like you're doing it, you know? Writing a book seemed like a lofty, absurd goal. But it's like, why not? It's just a bunch of tweets compiled into a book. in a more like digestible you know what I mean like that's how I was looking at it like just ramble but type it out yeah well your fans your fans aren't just fans of you as like you know as a musician they're fans of the person who's able to achieve all that stuff and they do all those things so keep doing those things man I'm trying we're done already that's it

well till the next time yeah fuck yeah man let's keep going absolutely there you go we hope you enjoyed this episode. It was produced by me and Joe London in association with Mega House Music Group. If you like this episode, go give us a rating at wherever you listen to your podcast. And make sure to follow us at And The Writer is on all your socials. We'll see you next week.