And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 215: Jessie Reyez | The Story of Betting On Herself (For Anyone Starting Over)

Episode Date: June 23, 2025

Today’s guest is a fearless storyteller whose voice is as raw as her lyrics—bold, emotional, and unapologetically real. A first-generation Colombian-Canadian, she turned hustle into art, weaving her experiences into songs that hit like truth bombs. Whether she’s penning heart-wrenching ballads or delivering razor-sharp verses alongside icons like Eminem and Beyoncé, her work is grounded in authenticity and fire. She’s busked, she’s bartended, she’s broken through. And now, with her third studio album, she continues to push boundaries—proving that vulnerability, grit, and honesty never go out of style. From Toronto to the world… And the writer is… Jessie Reyez!Produced by Joe London, Ross Golan, and Jad SaadSpecial thank you to our season sponsor NMPA!Chapters:00:01:36 – Start Here: Why This Episode Will Change You00:02:37 – How Jessie Met Eminem and Earned His Respect00:09:50 – What Jessie Learned Giving Back to Songwriters00:16:52 – Jessie’s First Song Ever (It’s Cringey… and Brilliant)00:18:28 – Jessie’s Crazy Lyric Memory & Why It Matters00:18:51 – From Choir Rooms to Stadiums: Where It All Began00:27:57 – The Moment She Gave Herself One Year 00:31:12 – How Her Mom’s Brutal English Drills Made Jessie a Genius00:35:35 – What Happens After the Hit? Jessie Tells All00:37:11 – The Exact Moment She Knew Her Life Was Changing00:42:36 – The Video That Changed Everything (She Almost Didn't Post)00:45:14 – How a $50 Bus Ride Got Her Into the Remix Project00:48:18 – Why She Stayed Up 14 Hours Editing Her First Video00:50:12 – The Brave Story Jessie Told That Changed Everything00:51:17 – Writing 'Figures' — The Raw, Drunken, Real Truth00:56:44 – The Writing Camp That Sparked Her Breakthrough Hit00:57:11 – How 'Figures' Was Really Written (And Why It Still Hurts)01:00:00 – Gatekeeper: Calling Out Sexism in the Music Industry01:01:42 – What MeToo Missed — And What Jessie Risked to Say01:02:58 – The Heavy Cost of Telling the Truth01:05:43 – Why Being Vulnerable is Jessie’s Greatest Superpower01:06:20 – Jessie on Drake, Bieber, The Weeknd & Canadian Greatness01:07:14 – Why So Many GOATs Come Out of Canada01:08:11 – From Open Mics to Eminem: The Legacy She’s Building01:18:14 – The Insane Calvin Harris Story (You Won’t Believe This One) Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

A year before she popped off. She said, maybe God has a different plan for you. I started laughing because I was like, Mommy, I'm going to give it one more year. If I don't break through in the year, then, okay, I'll assess something else. I was a receptionist at the gym. I was a bottle service girl on the weekends. And then I was linking with people online who wanted to make music. What's something you wish someone had told you in the beginning of your career?

You want to be great. You got to listen to the great things. You got to mimic the greats. And that shifted a lot for me, getting better. better as a singer. Do you think you've made it? It depends who you ask. Let's ask little you first.

Yeah. You made it? Yeah. Let's ask teenage you. No. What does she want? She wanted world domination. What about adult you?

Oof, adult me wants peace. Yeah. It won't make you happy. And a life well lived is a life rich in memories. NMPA is the premier organization for music publishers and their songwriter partners. It's their mission to increase the value of music, and that's exactly what they do. NMPA is working right now to raise royalty rates for songwriters from streaming services, radio, social media, and everywhere, music is essential.

From the courts to Congress, NMPA works to get songwriters what they deserve. I know because I've served on the board before, and I'm the current co-chair, along with Ryan Tetter and Liz Rose for the Golden Platinum Club. So again, thank you NMPA for supporting And The Writer Is and songwriters everywhere. Welcome to And The Writer is. I am your host, Ross Gollin. There are millions of singers and thousands of artists, but only 40 songs per genre at a time. This podcast aims to shed a light on those creators who make those songs.

I produce this with my friend Joe London in association with Mega House music group. Special shout out, Charlotte Isidore, jazz. Sadd and Michael White. And you can follow us at And The Writer is on all your socials. We'll see you there. Now, this week's episode. Welcome to And The Writer is. I'm your host, Ross Golan.

Today's Star Writer is a truth teller with a pen like a blade and a voice that cuts through the noise. She's a first-gen, Colombian Canadian, who busked beaches, bartended, and turned heartbreak in two triple platinum anthems. From Toronto to the Grammys.

From writing with Eminem to working with Beyonce. She's built a career on fearlessness, fire, and feeling. Her songs don't just play. They hit. Now, with her third studio album, she's diving even deeper, blending sharp storytelling with emotional grit and proving once again that vulnerability is her super,

power. And the writer is Jesse Reyes. That's quite the introduction. Come on, alliteration, fearlessness, fire, and feeling. Okay. Come on, Ross. All right. I like it. How are you?

Good, man. How are you doing? Good. I was asking if you're, you know, if you live in L.A., and you're like, I'm sometimes in L.A., sometimes in Canada. Let's start from the beginning. You're a Canadian.

You were born in Toronto. Born in Toronto. Who is, who's, so what? Well, who's your family? What was my family? Sure, who, what? My dad is a great Sagittarius men from Cali Columbia who played a bit of guitar and took my ass to church and we'd sing in the choir together. My mom is a Virgo saint also from Cali Columbia.

was a great lady who was a baby whisperer who I'm blessed to have as a mom because she let me be myself early, early on. And it inculcated an intuitive sense of who I am and having that given to you as a gift as a child. Having that been given to me as a child is a gift in my adulthood because I see a lot of adults scared to be themselves.

You know? So, yeah, that's who my parents are. With your dad playing guitar, what kind of guitar did he play? Did he play music like, you know, was it regional from where he was born? Was it, you know, was it living in Toronto? Was it folk? Like, what is he playing on guitar? A lot of old Colombian music, which is so funny because sometimes, especially now, like,

but it's just, you know, your first introduction to music is your parents' parents' palette in your parents' library. And I remember when I first started coming out here, or even first started interacting with, like, first or second generation Canadians that had a different history of what their musical introduction was as a child. And that was just, it's just, it's, it was almost like my old school is not, wasn't other people's old school. My old school was very different, very, very different. And, and my dad would play like, Boile. Boleros that are like so old, boy, boleros that were so old. There's one called La Historia di Unamor that he plays on guitar.

That is just so, it's just so beautiful. How does it go? Yeah, no estas mas on my side, Corazon. In the alma, solo I'm soledat. And if I no can't be you, because God me so caretere to make me suffer more. That's not the right note at the end,

but that's what it sounds like. That's what it sounds like. And it's very, very, like, very thick with poetry, very, very, very, like, it's got meat. It's got meat that if translated in English runs the risk of sounding cheesy. That's the difference of, like, if you were to translate Latino music and then compared to English music, that's, in my opinion, one of the very significant lyrical differences. And that influenced me as a writer too because it just, I noticed the difference and I was like, huh. So I've had to be aware of that boundary and I have a good time like pushing that to the

limit where I could be as honest and raw and full of imagery and full of passion in the lyrics but cognizant of not, like cognizant of playing dangerously close to that line, to the cheesy line. When you were little, was Spanish spoken in the house or English? Spanish is my first language. And then I didn't speak English until I went to school. Was that hard to be in Toronto and have English be your second language? Yeah, it was. I had an accent for a few years, bullied a little bit over it.

Really? Mm-hmm. But it's fine. You mean, give me thicker skin, you know? Do you know who any of those bullies are? Yeah. Do they know what you've done with your life? Yeah.

Does, do you have, is there any part of you that find, silence in that? That they know? No. Because I don't want to, I don't, because that would mean that they're not happy, and that makes me sad. So I hope not.

You know what I mean? Like genuinely, I hope not. But also everyone's got their tribulations. I mean, I'm sure that someone's looking at my life, they're like, oh my God, Roman. I got problems too, but I just don't outwardly talk. about them because I know how fucking insensitive that sounds because some people will look

at you and be like, you're living in your dream. You're in Hollywood. How could you have any problems? So I know people aren't going to empathize with the problems that I do have. So I just deal with them on my own. But I, that's the higher self talking. And then there's like 1%, 2% of me that's a little like, yeah, bitch. But I had a friend of mine.

I was like, do you want to get dinner with my priest? And I was like, yeah, okay. I've never had dinner with a priest before. I have to do this. That sounds like a movie. Dinner with the priest has to be the title of something. It should be. Yeah.

Okay. And we went and got, we were getting dinner and my friend is a successful actor. And it was, both of us were talking about how a big part of our motivation is proving some of those people wrong from our childhood. And that we don't want to admit that. Because like we're grownups now. Yeah. Did you see that nice little around the bush way that I,

came to that. Yeah, but like, and he was like, he's like, you have to give some appreciation to those people who made you, who gave you that thick skin. Chip on your shoulder versus gasoline. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Do you know those people? Do you remember them?

Oh, yeah. How many? I think that there's specifically, there's specifically two people and a few people who run around that that I still think about now almost 30 years later. And I know what I've accomplished and how important my community is and a big part of my giving so much to my community is to offset that. I think that that changed, like, how I work within the songwriting world. It's like, because I just want to be like a person who brings. brings love into that community.

Yeah. As opposed to the pullback. Yeah. Wow. And I really think that that's been a big part of the. Like why you're so great in terms of what you contribute to community because it was given to you. Yeah.

Wow. Look at that. I don't know. What do you do to like? To like to don't not turn into the villain? Yeah. I try to be empathetic. I try to be empathetic and I, oh, but in terms of like paying it forward, I mean, I came

out of this project called the Remix Project and I continued to work closely with them. And, yeah, I just, I, I do my best to offer legitimate, tangible advice anytime that someone tries to show me their music. And I always preface it with like, do you want me to just take it in or do you want I try to be honest, but in a way that's going to be helpful. You know what I mean? Yeah. Constructive. Constructive.

And like, yeah, I do my best to do that. And I've learned how to condense it where like if a fan's like, if we're meeting somebody in a fan's like, oh my God, I love your music. I sing too. Can I show you some stuff? And I'm like, sure. And I'm like, and I've just mastered a way of how to do it delicately, but poignantly. Like, delicately, but very like potently.

That's a skill. Did you learn how to communicate? communicate criticism from anyone specifically? My dad is very direct. My dad's very direct. Direct in a tactful way? No. But my mom is very delicate.

And I think I, by default, found the midline because I've gotten both extreme ends of the spectrum. Yeah. Yeah. So I think maybe that's why. And also I was like, I mean, as you said, Fearless is one of the Fs in my, in my three point. Alliteration.

Yeah. In your three point of alliteration, that's one of my, one of my significant points. And I think I've always kind of chased it, like put myself in situations where I was like, all right, well, is what I'm scared of. So let's go, let's do it. And it's kind of, it's a double-edged sword, though, because because of the bullying, because of my mom letting me be myself and then another double-edged sword, like, me in situations where I was, because he's a kid, most kids are to assimilate and like, hide, blend in camouflage because the second you stick out, all eyes go like this, fucking half-baked brains start throwing things at you.

And then all of a sudden, you got these little traumas that you walk around with until you grow up and learn what alchemy is and then learn how to figure it out. But until you get to that point, you're kind of walking around with it. Now that I'm at that point, I'm like, oh, fire. As I said earlier, where I'm like, this is a gift. This is a little gift I was given. and I can determine when I want to take criticism and I can determine when it's just bleachers beacon.

But something that I learned in the last couple, last several years is everyone is not built that way. And it's not their fault. Everyone just has a different life. And some people are more sensitive. And some people are not prepared for the truth. And some people's egos don't allow them to like take a higher position so they can look at things from an aerial view

and realize that your criticism is a gift, because if I didn't care about you, I would just be like, yeah, you're doing great. Or yeah, but like if someone is having a difficult conversation with you, telling you a truth that maybe isn't that savory, it's because they actually give a fuck. So I think being the midpoint between my dad's bluntness and my mom's delicacy, my mom's, my mom's delicate method has given me tact in how to deliver it and be cognizant that everyone's skin is in as thick as mine. but also if you only have five minutes with me

and I might be the only person to tell you the truth, I'm going to do my best to like give it to you with a flower. What's something you wish someone had told you in the beginning of your career? I like where things are at. These questions always fuck me up because I think about the butterfly effect and I'm like, if things would be different had I, because I, for example, I'd love to have to be a master at the piano. And I started piano when I was three and then I dropped it.

But then I've also encountered a lot of people that are like, it's probably a great thing that you don't know theory because sometimes when people know theory so in-depth, or so thoroughly, it makes them a different musician because they have a difficult time thinking outside the box. Not to say that that's every musician, but it might have been you had you been given that so militantly. So maybe that, maybe, there's pieces of advice I got late that I almost wish I got early because, I mean, I remember working with the vocal coach early early on because I went in for an audition for a girl. group and I fucking sucked. I sucked. I couldn't stay in key for nothing. And I had played them. When I went in for the audition, I played two songs and one was an original. And I was so nervous. And I sang, um, like, I sang a classic and they asked me how I felt about that person

and then I described the wrong person because I was just so nervous and they were like, girl. And I was like, I'm so sorry. And then I walked out and I was damn near in tears. And my folks were waiting for me upstairs. I think my dad was in the whip. It was like somewhere in Toronto. this guy ran upstairs and he was like, hey. And I was like, yeah. And he's like, listen, he's like, you know, that was a little rough. He's like, but you got something. I would love to work with you if you're done.

Like you show potential. I was like, thank you. And this guy's name was Tysa Ferry. I'm doing my first vocal coaches. And we went in together. He's the one that really taught me how to, first of all, staying key because I would always cheat and like jump into a next octave. Like I had a general sense of pitch, but I would cheat all the time.

And he was like, commit to it. He's like, you want to be great. You got to listen to the great thing. and you've got to mimic the grates. And so we started going through like American anthems. That's why I know the American anthem is a Canadian at a young age because he was like, look at Whitney's, look at this, look at that, and just mimic it.

Mimic it until it's just second nature to you and then get another grate. And then mimic it till it's second nature. And that shifted a lot for me. And we only had like three, three, four sessions. If that, that might be generous. But it was enough that it changed how I approached. getting better as a singer. And if I had that, like, that was, I was a teenager.

I was like, 16 maybe or 15 maybe. And I can only imagine how much better I would have been had I gotten that early. But also, but again, like, I think everything happens how it's supposed to. You know, everything happens how it's supposed to. You were writing music and you brought it into a girl group audition. One is, what's the? the first song that you wrote? Like, what is that one of the, were you bringing, was that like

the first song that you wrote that you brought into this audition? And why are you going to girl group auditions? Because I knew I loved this. And I was just taking every and any opportunity I could find to, to get in. And it was one of the earlier songs, but it wasn't the first. I was writing songs when I was like tiny. Like I was like 10, 11. What's the first song you wrote? So ironic. The song was something about like not growing up too fast. Like I 10 year old. writing a boy not growing up too fast. How dramatic. It's not ridiculous.

How does your first song? Compass. Who the fuck knows? You really don't know? Ew. It was something like, ew, it was something like, it sounds so S Club 70, bro.

It's so lame. I want to say, and this might be the power of suggestion because watch someone be like, this exists and I'm going to have mangled memories because you know how that happens? Sometimes, like, they mix. It might have been something like, don't grow up too fast.

Oh, you know what? My melody retention is a little suspect, but my lyric retention is elite. Something like, don't grow up too fast, enjoy the good times. Like, something like that. Such a joke. Such a joke at 10 years. Doesn't that seem like hella dramatic? Like, okay.

My first song was called Steve the Dog, so I think you beat me on that. But I will say this. Like, I don't remember. I have no lyric attention, like almost none. I can have muscle memory if I practice something enough, but I have incredible melody retention. Wow, that's cool. I can sing anything that I heard.

What was the melody? Steve the Dogg. Oh, I mean, I could probably play it for you on guitar. Like, I know it, like, it was really kind of abstract in where, like, each, like, the verse is really different from the, what would be the pre into the course, but the chorus was really sing along. It was like, it was a whole like, Steve the dog.

Steve the dog And we had like The other guy going Oh like over me And like Steve and do all this thing And like the we would get You know my high school chorus to sing So it had this whole

Really dramatic effect That's true And a little off topic But so When did you realize you were writing good songs 16 You were so quick at that Why did you know at 16

You could write good songs Because I was heartbroken I couldn't be in class because I'd cry. I couldn't be in the calf because I'd cry. So I'd find refuge in the corner room of the music room in Mr. Ladu Ser's class. And one of my girlfriends, Mona, who's still one of my best friends, whose kid is my godson, and she would come looking for me. And she'd find me in their fucking face covered and tears draped over a guitar. Anyway, she came in and she's like,

well, you're working on her? And I showed her my song. And I looked up and it was the first time that I saw someone get emotional over something I'd played. Like, she felt it and she, you know. And I just, I'll never forget. It was the first time I saw this make that happen. What was that song?

Fuck. Do you need the guitar? I do need the guitar. No, actually, no, fuck that. Fuck that. What? No, no. Just kidding.

Um Something You know One of the lyrics in the first line Was you might have thought Something something something die alone Yeah That was the

And it was just a sad Just the saddest 16 year old Heartbreak song Yeah I wish our 16 year old selves Could be having this conversation right now What do you Do you want someone just fucking

Tears It's just been tears But my 16-year-old self was doing the same thing. Really? Yeah. It's when it's like I got a task cam four-track tape recorder. There was no YouTube. I don't know how I learned how to record.

I don't know why. I got a free microphone because I was saying with like the Grammy High School All-Star Jazz Choir. Fire. No big deal. And they gave me a free, sure microphone. And I was like, well, I got to plug it into something. And I was like, but it was like 16 years old and being like, I don't know. I knew exactly what to write about.

But it was just like, that's when I went into like hibernation of like I can, I just, it wasn't a career thing. It was like an emotive. Like, this is my friend. This is my friend. I love that sentiment. That's nice. When you finish, when you finish high school.

you're pretty determined at this point to pursue music. Toronto's something of a hop-out of music, but you kind of have to have a lot of chutzpah, if you will. The Yiddish, they're thrown in your hutspah. To be like, yeah, I'm going to go straight into music. Did your parents, as immigrants, like, I'm second generation, but, like, there's still was like a, into, a expectation that I would be, you know, that I would have a job that was normal.

My family was supportive of me doing music, but still there was, my grandparents didn't see it that way, you know. How did your family deal with the idea of like, I'm not going to go to a second, you know, to secondary school. I'm going to just pursue music. Um, they were a little nervous. my mom funny enough, she just wanted me to do it legitimately. She was like, why don't you go to, I can't believe she said this.

She said, why don't you go to music school? And in my head, I don't know where the hell I got this, but I was like, it's going to be a waste of time. I got to do it another way because like what's being in a school. I didn't understand that like this, there's obviously upside to it because you can network horizontally and people that you're in school with, like you can connect, you can work, especially if it's music because it'll be more focused. But in my head, I was just always very anti-institution. I didn't love, I fucking hated school.

And I just had it in my head that it needed to be a different way. And then it was going to be a waste of money. I didn't want to use her money for it. I didn't want to go into debt either. So then I pan-fake my folks. And I was like, I'm going to work for a year after high school. And then I'm going to use that money. And then I'm going to, you know, then I'll do it.

And they were like, okay. And then that one year turned into two, and then two years turned into three. And then three years turned into four. So funny, I remember one of my older friends, she was like, how are you doing this? And I was like, what? She was like, how are you not in school? Because all my friends were in college. All my friends were in college.

And I wasn't. I was a receptionist at the gym. I was a bottle service girl on the weekends. I was a CFL cheerleader for the Toronto Argonauts in between there when it would fit in. And then I was linking with people online who wanted to make music and recording it. in random Toronto closets, somehow made it out, okay, but the hustle was real. And my folks were worried. And my brother took more of a, at least in terms of like school and study, he's a scientist, he's a teacher, he works at York.

You, like, and we just had different, different, we were just different. So they expected something different out of me. And the thing is, I was also, I excelled in school until my emotions got involved. And then when my emotions got involved, shit went left. So I think it made them even more frustrated because it's like they saw the frog sing in private. And then the song in the frog in public was like, I'm not dancing anymore. When they know that I had it in me to do it. But whatever.

I was also very stubborn. So they were like, well, okay. And you would bring it up. And I'd be like, yeah, yeah. And I'd go hustle, go work, go do random shows in Toronto. Oh, my God. Random bar shows where there was like two people there. And then my folks would come.

And sometimes my aunt would come. And my uncle Pitti and my Tial Bita, like, they would just come. And it would just be like three, four random young people, the bartender, one ratress and my four family members. Oh, it was really sweet. Is this you playing on guitar at that point? Are you playing, you know, what do you? When you're saying you're doing, is it just solo, just you and a guitar? Me and guitar, some of them.

Some of them was me in track with this rapper who I met online called Dominic King, who was fire at random shows on College Street in Lula Lounge, random shows at supermarket. One of my friends from childhood named Chris gave me a, fuck, I can't remember what this venue was called, but I linked up with a high school friend of mine who played drums. So it was just me on guitar and my boy on drums. this is 10 years ago.

I'm not even good at playing the click now. So it just imagined. Like this is, it was just, it was rough, man. But they were supportive even though they were scared. And my mom,

she said, she said this a few years ago and it's crazy because I have no recollection of this. She came to me like, like she was coming to drop off a confession. And like, and like I was the priest and had see-through vision. That was the weight with which,

that was the, that was the, wait, she came to me with. And I was like, what's going on? And she was like, Meja, I just can't believe I said this to you. And I was like, what are you talking about? She's like, she's like two years or a year before shit popped off with figures.

She had said something. She was like, because I'd been at it. And my work ethic has always been fucking elite. When it comes to music, elite. She saw me at it. And she's like, Mihai's been so long. Maybe it's, maybe it's not for you. Like maybe it's not, maybe God, she said specifically verbatim, she said,

maybe God has a different plan for you. Like maybe God has a different plan for you. When I tell you, I started laughing because I was like, mommy, because she's always been so supportive that that sentence didn't even permeate, didn't land, didn't leave a crumb, didn't leave a fucking, a book moved. It didn't even make a fucking, I started laughing because she looked so, she looked like it had haunted her. Yeah.

And I had told her, Ma, I'm going to give it one more year. And if I don't break through in the year, then okay, I'll let's have something else. And then she started moving obviously after it. But it was just so cute. And I told her, like, I had to lift weight. I'm like, you've always been so, like, it didn't, if anything, you've built me into this, that that kind of sentence wouldn't even, like, didn't even matter. But I thought it was just really cute that she seemed so guilty, so concerned. and so worried that it had made an impact or that she had said it.

If you knew my mom, you'd understand why it was so funny because she's so not that and you'd see why it would have hurt her. It would haunt. It's amazing how many things we all have probably said to people that we still internalize, that we assume have affected somebody in a certain way, and the other person didn't even hear it. Didn't even hear it. It's weird. I think what's interesting about musicians,

who pursue a career in music is that there's a people conflate education and higher learning with school. And I happen to like what I learned in school, but there are a lot of people who pursue the university of the music industry, you know, though it's sort of the way you do. you are exceptionally articulate. Where did you learn to speak so eloquently? I read a lot of books. I read a lot of books. And I was lucky enough in grade 7 to have this teacher name is hidden.

I always think it's so funny because she found the hidden talent in me. but I would participate in a lot of poetry. Like there was a poetry competition and I participated and there was a poetry exercise. Like some homework, something where we had to like build a poetry book. And I done it and then I used one of those poetry books, one of those poems in this poetry festival we were having and I ended up winning.

And I was a, I always had an issue with this. authority. So every now and then I get a call home from the school. However, Ms. Hidden was the first and only teacher to ever call my house with good news. And I don't know, and I always say, I'm like, I wonder why. I wonder if she was caught and we're still talked, but I've never asked her why. She came to my Toronto concert, like the last Toronto concert. Like, she's in my life. But when I was 13, she called the crib and said, she was. said, hey, I don't know if y'all know to my parents, Jesse's got a knack for this. Like, Jesse's good at this.

She's good at English. She's good at, like, poetry. And I always thought, I was like, I wonder if she was just so astute that she understood that, like, first of all, at home, we only spoke Spanish. Like, I said Spanish with my first language. I don't know if she noticed it from parent-teacher interviews, but, like, my mom would, you know, She was very, as loving as she is, very disciplined where like, actually, that's a good point, too, as to why I think maybe I have such a command over language and playing with words, but my mom would make me memorize, my mom would make me memorize, wait, this is a story later. My mom would make memorize things, but my dad would help me with homework when he could with math and science and things that are universal, but English is not.

English is one of the subjects that's not. And I wonder if she just realized that, that she was like, oh, her parents must know what's going on with math and what's going on with like this. But if only Spanish is spoken at the house, maybe they don't know how fluid she is with English. I got to ask her why. Because anyways, it was just, it stuck. It stuck. Only teacher to ever call the house with good news.

First one to be like, yo, these poems are good. And it was so cool because then years after when I was doing this thing with Apple and we were doing this like mini dog. And they were like, is there anyone you want to bring back? And I was like, yeah, fuck yeah, I'm going to hit Miss Hidden. She had kept my poetry. Oh, wow. And she uses it as an example in her class. Fucking nuts.

Fucking nuts. Yeah, it was so lit. But also, so shout out to Miss Hidden, but my mom, God bless her, man, because contributed what she could. Because even though it didn't have the command. Like, she was studying English. As I wasn't studying English, she was also studying English. You know what I mean? So you can only help as much as you.

You can only help so much. But there was a point where we'd like, I don't know, in history, for example, and there'd be pages on, this is the one that I remember, just pages on Egypt. The kitchen table in my house was a see-through. And my mom was like, when I tell you I memorized times tables, I memorized, she'd make me memorize entire sheets. When you, like, I see your eyebrows go up. This is not an exaggeration.

entire sheets, size 12 font, Times New Roman, fucking thick. And I'd be there and I'd be like, fuck. And then my mom would be like, okay, just a list? I'm like, okay. And she'd sit there and I'm in the corner and she'd be like, okay, go. And then I'd have to recite it and I'd have to be on it. And if I miss the word, if I missed the word, she'd put the sheet down. She'd be like, well, miha, I'll come back and like give it another.

And she'd leave. And then I'd have to go. And it got to the point where I would just set, Since it was a glass table, I would turn the sheet around, and then I would slide down the sheet. And I'd be on the top. She's out of exhaustion. I swear to God. Hand to God.

I'd be on the floor. I'd be on the floor, and the sheet would be here. And I'd be like, oh, and I would just be memorizing. And then she'd come back upstairs and be like, are you ready? And I was like, yeah. And then, yeah, that's one of, I think I read like a maniac, mishidden, help me out a lot. And my mom made me memorize pages and pages and pages of literature. That's your lyric retention.

Right there. Yeah. Because you didn't want, you were really exhausted. You're just like, I might as well remember everything. Yeah. Do you remember other people's songs as well as you remember your own? Yeah. Isn't that exhausting?

They have that much information in your head? Mm-mm. How much do you recall other people's music when you're writing your own? How much do I recall other people's music when I'm writing my own? I don't because it's a different, it's a different channel. It's a different state that I'm in. It's more, it's, it's, It's not, it's not, it's automatic and it's not conscious.

What's the lyric someone else wrote that you wish you wrote? No that I am. Yeah. If happy is her, I'm happy for you. That's funny. It's, it's that Demi Lovato song. Fuck, man. I fucking, I remember I heard that song and I like looked up the writers and I was like,

who the fuck are you people? You guys nailed this. These two people from far, far away that I never heard of in my life. And I just was in that, I just, that song is so beautiful. beautiful. Why don't you look up the songs I wrote for Demi and say, wow, I like this guy. Thanks a lot, bro. Okay, done with this interview. Bye. Okay, no, all right, for real. So we, you go from, you know, there's a difference between I'm going to pursue this for a living to like, oh, this shit is real. I, you know, explain a little bit how you get into, you know,

the remix project and how some of these people get you from this girl's got talent to this woman is an artist um fuck this is such I'm gonna do my best to like fly through this

so I used to do background dancing too and I was background dancing for this artist and I was in high school who was it This is before the Argonauts. It was two artists that had the gig that night. So it was one of these two. It was either this guy named Cuban or this guy named S. Davis.

That's the night I met Phil, who was one of my best friends as well, who's now one of my videographers. He directed a lot of my videos, hard to love, Apple Juice. Yeah. I got booked for this gig as a dancer. I wasn't supposed to be in that club because I was the only underage dancer. So to get me in there, they had to put me in the middle of the crowd, of their group and like, oh, the artist is here and like sneak me into the club that way.

And I was like, oh, fuck. And then this guy comes up to me and he's like, hey. I was like, he's like, you're okay? And I was like, yeah, yeah. And he's like, you sure? Like pretty much just like extended out a little olive branch because saw how fucking nervous I was. Me and I've become friends. He's working with the manager.

This manager meets me who ends up becoming one of my first, whose name is Philippe LeBonk. Philippe LeBonk says, oh, I got to introduce you to Doc McKinney. If you don't know, Doc McKinney's a fucking legend, especially at that, like, that moment in Toronto history, like, weekend was bubbling up. The whole city's talk. It was just, it was, the air was thick with fucking potential, you know? And a year before that, so when I was 16, me and one of my home girls, I was, I had a really, I had a cool group of friends. Like, we were cool. I was really nervous about singing in front of people, and I wouldn't sing in front of people, unless they'd, they close their eyes or unless I'd be like, can y'all go into the hallway and I'll sing or can I, I was just really nervous. And she was always like, Jesse, you're lit. You can't let your shine this like take over.

Let's put your stuff out there. And so I'd record a cover. And she was really into online culture. She was really into online culture. And she'd be like, let's put your stuff on Twitter and let's just put it with clickbait. So we'd be like the weekend kissing a stripper. But it was me playing Rolling Stone on the guitar. I'm maniacs.

So that was two years prior, right? Or a year prior when I was 16. 17, I booked a gig. Meet Jive, meet Philippe, who introduces me to Doc. They bring me to the studio and I'm playing my guitar in front of Doc. And Doc's like, oh, and then I start singing. Then half foot through my song. He's like, wait a minute.

And I was like, yeah. He was like, I know you. And I was like, do you? And he's like, yeah. He's like, I think Alangelo, who is another fucking lit-ass producer, Elangelo showed me one of your songs. It's like one of your tweets and I was like, oh, sick. And he starts laughing and we start laughing.

And then we begin a friendship. Mentorship, man. That guy fed me a lot of advice. But it was funny because that was the first time in my life that I saw something put into practice that I wouldn't, this lesson that I learned a few years later, but it was the first example of it being put retroactively into practice, which is the like, if you're trying to break it and you're trying to break into the industry and you're trying to like meet people and shit, you need to go to events. And it doesn't matter if you don't meet the person on the first try. It doesn't matter if you don't meet the person on the second try because your brain is literally

wired to have a different reaction to familiarity. And if you go to these events or you show your face at these different places, you might not meet the person the first day or meet the person the second. But if that person in you lock eyes, by the third time you go to this event, there's going to be a subconscious, deep in the subconscious level of rapport that's going to have them be maybe more receptive, more open to a possibility of connecting with you, you know? And it was just funny because I didn't, I hadn't really had that, I hadn't really understood that or been taught that till years later. But when I was taught it, I connected the dots backward as to like, that's why, that's why that reaction that Doc had was so veritable. You know what I mean?

Me and Doc start working, but loosely, because obviously he's very, like, very, very involved with the weekend stuff, and I'm still trying to figure it out in other ways, but I don't stop working. I'm still doing gigs and stuff. I end up moving to Florida with my family, because my dad, when they came to Canada, they came because the papers were easier to get, but my dad never really liked the cold, never, like, his intention was always Florida, but it was harder to get papers for the states. And so it took my family 16 years to get legally approved, which is a whole other political conversation, but took them 16 years to get legally approved, and they finally got it.

Imagine we have been, let me not get political. It's so fucked up that people fucking criticize people that do it like, are legal is that. I'm like, are you fucking stupid? We were coming from the luxury of leaving Canada. We weren't being persecuted. We weren't like in danger. But if you're a father or you're a mother and you have kids that you're trying to protect and you're in a situation where you're thinking about your family surviving and you're

have systems in place that take decades. You think you're going to, like, it just doesn't make any fucking sense when people lack any sort of empathy for people that are actually like trying to make sure their family stays alive and their souls didn't have the fortune of coming into a body on this side of this line. So then they need to suffer. And you have no empathy, no, no thought process to even consider that maybe, maybe you guys are both made of the same thing.

But anyways, took my family 16 years. We got it. My dad's like, it's a family thing. So if you want to slide with us, slide or you can stay in Toronto on your own. And I, it's so funny how things happen. Because I was cheerleading for the CFL, which is like the NFL in Canada. And I was going to go audition. I audition for the Raptors because they paid more. And I told my dad, I was like, if I make it to the Raptors, I'm going to stay in the city. Fuck, this is not. If I make it to the Raptors, I'm going to stay in the city. this sounds so verbose but it's a fucking good story please tell me to speed it up if you're like I'm really enjoying this Okay great so I was gonna add this in for the raptor I audition for the actress I told my pops I was like if I make it I'm staying and he was like all right

So they're building like for I don't know the numbers Because I can't remember that well But I'll give you an example if it was 33 girls right I make three round cuts three round cuts It's the final cut I'm like sick So they only choose 32 And then they pull five of us apart And I was like what the hell

And then they get us done They're like, oh my God, we love you girls, but like, we want the fans to choose the last girls. So the five of you want you guys to campaign. And my petty ass was like, nope, I'm not doing it. Like, I really wanted to be part of the squad. Like, you know, I love the city. I love to dance at the time. And but when that came up, I was like, nah, it's a sign.

So I told my dad, I was like, poppy, fuck it. I'm sliding. We're going to Florida with y'all. And so we go. And then in Florida, I get a job as a bartender, a dancing bartender. It was like a Brazilian thing. So like at 1 a.m., they blow a fucking trumpet and you run downstairs. You put on your gear.

You come back upstairs. You do a little show like a samba show and then run downstairs, take it off, back to bartending. And that's what I was doing and still trying to hustle. So I was doing open mics down there. But it was very difficult because at least in Toronto I had built a little bit of a community. But in Florida it was starting from scratch. And it was starting from scratch at a time where insens and drugs was the like, Yeah.

So what I was bringing didn't really match that. So it was so difficult. And I found refuge in the internet. And so I would do a lot of my networking on the internet and still stayed in touch with a lot of people from back home. One of the people was Doc McKinney. We were on a Skype call. Skype. That was it.

Yeah, we were on a Skype call. And I was complaining like a motherfucker because I was still trying to like, just imagine. You know, I don't have funds. but I'm working with people that also find it, that find passion in music or have a passion for music. But I wanted beats, producers wouldn't send it on time. I wanted this. And I was always very hungry. And it would frustrate the shit out of me that I couldn't find a match of urgency.

And so I'm talking big shit. I'm like, this is ridiculous. I'm like, people want to do this. People want to do this. They want to follow through. And Doc was like, mm-hmm. Like you, he was like, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And then finally, like, what seemed like 100 hours after, he was like, done.

And I was like, yeah, I'm like steamed out. He's like, Jesse, you got to do what you can, where you're at, whatever you got. If you're waiting on this, if you're waiting for producers, learn how to make beats. If you're waiting on, he pretty much just like laid it out flat, very, very succinctly. Real advice. If you're waiting for this, do it. He's like, because people are going to use you as the gauge for the energy that they have to bring. And you're going to attract that.

But that's what you have to do. And that shit flicked the switch in me, and I sat back and I was like, fuck. Okay. I had one song that I made with Jaya from before. I linked with a friend of a friend that I went to high school with online that I knew in Florida. So like a friend of a friend that was also in Florida that had a camera that was doing some camera work. And I was like, you want to link? And they were like, sure.

And I was like, cool. So then we went to the beach and shot a music video. And then when they were dropping me off home, the little thing that talks said kind of and I was like, hey, can you send me the footage? And they were like, what? And I was like, just send me the footage. I'll edit it. Because I know that if I, I wasn't paying him.

And I was like, this is going to take, just give me the footage. He's like, you don't know how to edit. I'm like, don't worry about it. He gave me the footage. Hand to God, I stayed up 48 hours on YouTube. And this is when we're living in Florida, but we didn't have a crib yet. We didn't have papers, like our proper papers yet. So we're living at my cousin, Bidhina's house.

And it's me, my mom and my dad in one bedroom. And my little cousin in the other. This is a little hectic. Stayed up to four. Shout out to my parents because they could have complained because I had the computer on and the headphones on. And they're like I'm on a where I'm going to pull out couch and they're on the bed. Like it was a lot. But I figured it out.

48 hours straight. The next day I go online and I post that shit fucking everywhere. And this is at a time where I don't know if you can still do this, but on Facebook you could look up a company. And then anyone affiliated with that company would show up. Cool. So I looked up like much music and who was affiliated and look up labels. Who was affiliated? and look up all these things.

And so funny, because a lot of people that I sent it, like Addy, I sent it to. A lot of people that I ended up connecting with years later would be like, yo, we got sent this. I sent it to Aaron. Crazy. I sent it to Aaron, who's one of my fucking brothers, and I slept on his couch. Like, this is a whole other story, too, but crazy. Staying 48 hours, releasing this. Thank you.

One of the people that got it, um, It was Mauritio Ruiz. And he was like, yo, your, your, your music's cool. The videos, the music's lit. And then we started talking. And then he told me about this thing called the Remix Project in Toronto. And then I begged my bar manager for the weekend off because I didn't want to lose my job because this was my only, you know. And Rob, shout out, Rob.

He was like, all right, cool, take the weekend. and I got a $50 flight on Spirit Airlines. 50. It was 25 to Buffalo and 25 back. Had a homie picked me up there, went for the weekend, auditioned, and then came back and then worked some more months to, like, make more money, and then I made it. And so I moved back home and then, I mean, we start working together.

And then, or no, I met King Louis from Chicago. That's why I fucking love Chicago so much. Because King Louis, shout out King Louis, who like added to, the shit is so nuts every time I talk about it, because it's just so funny that so many, it's just nuts. King Louis came, we talked. It's like all these people who come into your life that. Contributing.

Seemingly out of nowhere, but like you were saying when I said, what would you tell a younger self? I don't know, I like where I'm at now. Yeah. And, you know, maybe you tell a younger self, like, just trust me. Just trust me. Go on this ride. Yeah.

Because it'll be wild when you see what happens at the end, you know? Yeah, just go. I wouldn't even say shit. I think the things also, like, we'll go back to King Louis. but like when you say like you posted links with some weird clickbait it's like it's the shit you wouldn't do as a grown up but as a kid you have no inhibitions you have nothing to lose the stuff that uh the people i reached out to when i first was starting i used to pretend to be my i've said this story before on this but like i used to pretend to be my roommate and i started a record

company in college and i would be like my name's mike thompson who's passed away but my name's Mike Thompson and I have this artist you need to hear Ross Golan. And I used to go and I got some good meetings out of just calling, calling, calling. There was a book called The Yellow Pages of Rock, which really dates me. But it was literally the direct line to everybody at every major publishing and record company. But this book cost a fortune. And I knew some guy who had one that was two years old. So he was like, oh, you can have it's two years old.

I didn't care. I'd still called the numbers and was like, hey, I'm Mike Thompson. Hey, I'm Mike Thompson. Hey, I'm Mike Thompson. And I would end up in L.A. going to all these meetings. I wouldn't do that now. And I don't, like, I wish I would, it'd be great right now if I went through the, every A&R numbers, you know, and just called them all and said, like,

what are you up to you right now? What are you up to right now? But you become like jaded and like, oh, I don't know. I can't do that now. But none of those people were mad. some of those people hung up, most of them hung up. Most of them didn't return it. But like, you're allowed to be a little bit wild and do some things that are not totally kosher.

If it gets you in the door, I get it. And lastly on the immigration thing, a couple years ago, we found my grandma's warrant for her arrest because, you know, the U.S. wouldn't let in Jews. So they moved to Nicaragua. and so my family all to get into the U.S., you know, my mom, my grandma was, you know, was pregnant and was, you know, basically like they were running from authorities so they had my mom in New York. And now, then she became like that, like the head of the medical school at Northwestern. Crazy.

Like this amazing cardiologist. An incredible cardiologist, brilliant person. and but she was a Jew so like that was the that was the line that the arbitrary line in these imaginary borders but all you had to do is come

through the Gulf of America we can talk about that again so we're at King Louis which now gets us into like the kind of like the stuff that people know of you and you know just to work through it a little bit. It's not like, you know, you're clearly working with some names,

but not, you know, there's a difference between I'm aspiring, now I have potential to then figures, which is, you know, did you feel this shift in your career when that song took off? Mauricio didn't really know what he was doing

because he wasn't, he had not been in management. and we, he'd get advice from one of his friends, who's Byron Wilson, who was my manager. And he'd, he sent my music to Jeremiah Thomas and Byron and Aaron, Sunreal, shout out Vernon. It was one of the couches I used to sleep in when I started coming. And then naturally, the team grew because things started growing. And me and Mato, we were just like knew into this. And Biz knew what he was doing because he had already worked with,

Byron knew what he was doing because he worked with Sunreal. And then we started working on my first EP. Germai heard my stuff from L.A. Said, you're dope, you have potential. Got BMG to fucking fly me out to Sweden before me even signing a contract because I have trust issues and I'd heard so many fucking horror stories.

In Sweden, I'm working for like a week on other artists just as a writer. Meet two producers named Priest and the Beast who say, you're dope. We believe in you. even though I had nothing out. We believe in you. We want to keep you here for an extra week on our dollar.

We can work on whatever you want. Pitch your stuff, whatever you want. And I was like, fire. That week, I ended up writing love in the dark. I ended up writing figures. I come back to the States. I was very fucked up because I was just, things were rough.

Drinking a lot, depressed. A lot. So I was happy to stay in Sweden because a lot of the shit that was happening was in Toronto. Why were you drinking a lot? Why not? It was just, things were heavy and it would numb a lot. It would numb a lot.

And also it would become second nature because I spent so much time in the nightlife industry that it had just become second nature. Anyways, I fly back to LA. I get in the car. I get in Bizzy's car. Busy is Byron. People always get confused because I always fucking switch back and forth. From this point on, he's biz.

I get in business car. And he's like, what's up? I don't even know. I remember this more than I. Yeah. Like on it, yeah. And he was like, yeah. And he was like, what's up?

And then I, I, I don't know if you asked me. I don't remember, but apparently I played in figures. And I'm just sitting there like, the press. And he says, he's like, he heard it and he was like, what the fuck? Like, it was lost on me because I was just so deep in my shit that I didn't, I was just sad. I was just sad. But not biz. Biz, this was happy.

This was happy. Anyways, Figures comes out. The three of us fucking do the video. The three of us put it out. And then out of fucking nowhere, I didn't really grasp what was happening. And I remember you guys trying to tell me because the email looked like a refresh on Twitter page

because it was just like, label, label, label, artists are type to pop, and every time they'd like, it was just, it was nuts. It looked like a, like a, like a slot machine. That's what it looked like. And they, I just remember the look on your guys' face is like, yo, Jesse, this is.

And I was like, mm-hmm. Like, because I didn't really understand. I didn't really understand. I didn't understand what was happening. Kind of think you're not supposed to understand your first hit. I think I'm so happy that my first songs didn't work. Just for that I had to go. Like, same thing of like, you travel.

You're kind of depressed. You have to go through your phase of like some self-sabotage and all this stuff. And then when it happens, you're kind of like, I don't know, I think a lot of people have this idea of there, there. Of what? A there there. Like, they always wanted to get a hit. And then they realize, oh, it's, I'm still just, I'm just Jesse with a hit. I'm just Ross with a hit, whatever it is.

And you have this moment of just like, oh, okay, I'm not really grasping what this is. But like if you have the, if you're trying to take it in, most of the people I know who try to take it in, it inflates like an ego. It creates like unreasonable expectations. It becomes this whole other thing other than the experience of like not of just you're just living it. It's probably the healthiest way to digest a hit like that versus had that happen when you were. 16, you would have been that crying kid in your orchestra

class or whatever, choir, or wherever you were doing it, you know, in your music class, and you're going to be the kid is going to then, what, be in front of people? Like, no wonder why those kids are the fucked up superstars later. Because, like, they don't understand. They're having that moment

and their expectations are, of course, I get this. Crazy, ain't? Not like, oh, I've gone through, like, a life of, like, having to you know, work. Yeah. You earned it the hard way, you know?

I'm glad you didn't. That was your experience. Me too. Me too. Our listeners love how songs are made. So I gotta just ask, like, you're at that week in Sweden and you write two big songs.

Tell me about the day you wrote figures. It was the last day, and everyone, remember I was like it was a week of the songwriter and then a week of just me. The week of the songwriters had ended, so everyone had got home and it was supposed to be just me. Shy Carter, who's amazing, love Shy. I ended up staying.

Yeah, legend. He's so, he's so safe. And such a good vibe. Such a good vibe. His is one of my favorite interviews we've ever done. Really? I love Shy. Me too.

It was such a great interview. Such a good vibe. Such a legend. Anyway, sorry, I don't know you did. No, but he is such a legend. He is such a legend. Yeah. I love.

He's, he, it's just so great when someone is that talented and also great. Like, I'd love, like, I just, every time I see him, my heart smiles, it's just a great guy. I'm working with Priest and the Beast. You know how it is, like you're in a studio, like, we're working, songs coming out, we're vibrant. He wasn't supposed to be there. So funny how shit. How fuck, it's so fucking wild how shit happens. Because he wasn't supposed to be there.

He ended up staying. he popped in and he gave me arguably the thing he gave me the crack of the song he gave me the he gave me that post and some people could be like oh you know like versus matter courses matter and of course they do but there's certain things in songs that are the like this is the condensed crack this is the condensed crack that's going to fucking slide in and and throw their bag on the floor and be like this is where I'm living that's what that is. And I just, I forever, I'm forever grateful to him.

He's fucking, he's lit. And also, not for nothing, because I was in such a fucked up place, having that sort of spirit, because he's a light being. He's a light being, like, through and through. And I just remember, like, the song is a very, it's just very real. I just remember having a bottle in my hand and being like, and him just trying to be like, it's going to be okay. It's going to be okay.

Okay. Him and Germ was there that week, too. Georgia coup was there that day. That week, like that whole week, I was just going fucking through it. I was going through it. And it's just nice to have good people around you when you're in the throes of heartbreak. One of the things you released after the success of that is gatekeeper, which I know you've spoken extensively about, talking about sexism and sexual assault and misogyny in the music industry is something that

I feel like in many ways this industry got a past during Me Too. And I feel like it was important to have people who had a voice to say, to tell their story. Do you think we've improved at all as an industry? Yeah, but I don't say that it's. as a blanket statement or as a like, I think we've improved because I think shame is a very real factor that I love being employed

because people are cognizant of it. A lot more men are cognizant of it. You know? And I think it's a great thing that's improved, but I say that optimistically. Sure? Very optimistically.

Because there's always room for improvement. Some people, I mean, I could argue I could argue it politically or give you an analogy politically because some people, when a leader is in a position that argues things one way and makes it publicly okay to lean that way, then everybody with those hidden things all of a sudden feels like it's okay. That works the other way as well when someone is shaming something and everyone's like, oh shit. And some people can argue maybe that's not the best thing because then it becomes more covert. And so you don't know who you're dealing with.

But if you're asking me to choose the lesser of two evils, I'd rather someone scared to show me their bullshit and act accordingly than someone feel comfortable with their bullshit out on the table because it's not acceptable. So if fear is what is keeping a lot of people, of shitmen in place, I will take it. I'll take it. Amen. You responded to that situation with kiddo, and it really really blows up your career.

All that's kind of at the same time. And in Canada, you kind of become Canadian royalty, you know, during that. You know, is how much of making it through difficult times like that had, how much of that inspired your career to move up a level? Because it was something that was relevant to, it's still relevant now, but it was something that was newly relevant to culture at the time, it almost, it was like ominous timing because it wasn't ever done consciously to be like, we're going to. to release this song at this time because it's relevant to what's happening.

Like it was never that. It was fucking spooky at how weird the timing had worked out. The silver lining is that, yeah, it made it connect with more people because it was a topic that was at the forefront of a lot of, yeah, it was a topic that was at the forefront. But as a human being, it was a difficult moment because the onslaught of women that came forward directly and now with the internet like you have DMs and comments and all these things like you wouldn't you wouldn't I mean I'm sure you'd believe it now but at the time I was I was incredulous like I was you wouldn't believe the amount of the amount of messages of like this guy

did this did this did this did this thank you for speaking out this guy did this and this and this thank you for speaking out this guy did that and that this like it was it was it was the it was It was nonstop. It was nonstop. And I was happy that women had found something that helped them, but it broke my fucking heart to see how common and how normal and how it just, it fucking, it was, it was a heavy thing to carry. It was a heavy thing to carry. So yeah, the silver lining is that it was relevant. So it, so, so the song permeated more and topic permeated more than people heard my shit, but it was double, L-Elling. because because it just, it was shitty to know that so many people relate.

Yeah. And I mean, your bravery in that, it's, it, we always try to get artists to be vulnerable because that vulnerability is often relatable. But it takes a true bravery to be vulnerable as an artist. And then to be vulnerable like that is a next level of bravery that, um, it, no wonder that that's what these people could. It heals a lot of people. And that's, you know, it's because of that vulnerability that other people felt like they

could be brave too. You know, like I was saying, the success in Canada, you start getting all the Juno awards and nominations and whatnot. Canada is filled with legends. It's, I believe, a smaller population than California. And yet in every genre, it seems to have the best. Has Celine Dion and Boubley and the weekend and Drake and Bieber. You know, it's just like this long list of people who are at the tops.

And Alanis and Alessia. Yeah, keep going. Keep going. Why are you guys, why are Canadians the best? I think, especially in Toronto, we benefit from what we were talking about earlier, like the cyclical nature of our seasons, I think gives us a different sense of A, what it is to blossom in the summer, but B, and more importantly, what it is to be, reclusive because as an artist, the idea of going into yourself and going into a cave and finding

what's in there. And if you have alchemy on your right hand and nothing but material on your left and you're in a space that allows time and cave where there's reverb because you have space and darkness, it just gives you an opportunity to create in a different way that someone may be in a constantly sunny place wouldn't because you don't have those cycles. You're not at the mercy of cycles and you're not at the mercy of open space and darkness to just let your artist be to let your your artistic nature kind of find something to do you know what i mean so i think that that contributes to a lot of a lot of what Canada has created coming off of the success of an artist you end up working with you know any lyricist dream writer m&M how do you need

I met Eminem. I met Eminem because the thing I mentioned earlier about familiarity came to play because he had seen me on a late night show where I was doing Gaykeeper. And he was like, yo, she's dope. And then it stayed. And then a few months after his daughter had brought me up and it was like, yo, Jesse's blown. Like he saw me again.

It was like, Jesse's blown up. You should hit her up. Like pretty much threw my hat. I just threw my name in the hat. And then his team reached out. Oh, crazy. Reached out randomly. Yeah.

And then we were in the city, too, we were like, fuck it, let's go. And I remember being in the car, being fucking nervous. Because I've worked with some great fucking people. I've worked with some legends. And I'm pretty good for maintaining my equanim, like, my, my emotional. Yeah, I'm okay. I'm okay. I've been two times in my life.

I have not been okay. and one of them was with Eminem and I was like and I just remember like vividly praying and I was like please Lord because at that time I don't write anymore but at that time I would sometimes the thing would just come sometimes the instpah would just come and it would be woof or sometimes like the faucets open

and then sometimes the faucet drips and when the faucet drips then I have to build right and I remember praying I was like Lord let the faucet be open so that I'm not, especially in front of him. Like, I wanted to just, and then I walked in and they played a beat. We said hi. First of all, when we said hi, I was so fucking nervous already. But then we go into the studio.

I heard some music and I was like, right? And I shut my eyes. And then it came. And I was like, yes. Thank God. And that was the good guy. Right? Yeah.

Because nice guy, and I didn't play until after. Nice guy we gave him. Yeah. So yeah, that's how that happened. You said there were two people who made you nervous. Eminem was one. Who's the other? Beyonce.

Yeah. We could jump to that. Okay. How did you meet Beyonce? Well, I met her by way of Jayzee and Made in America. Why is... The fact that you have this Mount Rushmore of... of rappers in your phone when you're like,

so I was hang out with Eminem. Oh, and then when Jay-Z says, it's like, you know that that's not normal, right? Yeah, yeah, okay. Just want to remind, make sure you knew that. That's an abnormal thing to have in your telephone. It's fucked. The, the, uh,

when you met Beyonce, what was it like? Right. The, it was fucked. It was so fucked. We were doing Made in America, did the VMAs the night before. This is why this is also where, like, pertinent to the story, because when figures popped off, labels started coming to, like, they smelled blood in the water. And it was crazy because we ended up being in a bidding war.

And we got whined and dined up the ass. It was crazy. It was nuts. And again, I didn't realize what was happening, but it was like president dinner over here. president and over here. And then it elevated to like, it wasn't like the sub labels. It was like a Sony Warner Universal thing. I remember when we decided to go to Island and we ended up going to Island because

that's where Dermai went, who was one of my guys that made sense because it just made sense. I remember feeling dushy about, I was like, I don't want to, I feel like people just took us on dates and now we're dumping people because we're going to wife them over here. and this feels dushi, so I want to call them. And so I called every, yo, this shit was not easy to fucking do. Thank you. God damn right, good for me.

Because I fucking, I did it. And it was crazy because I could count, I could tell. Some people switched immediately, which is fine. This is fucking L.A., whatever. But some people were like, you could just feel it. And then some people like, Tai Tai, it was all right. It was cool. is love regardless.

And it was so cool to see the follow through because this is after the fact, after we had signed with someone else, but Rock Nation's social with mad love. And so we did, Made in America, and then Taita He'd said, was like, you want to come? I remember who it was,

but we got brought back to where, like it wasn't backstage, it was like backstage. And then Jay's like, yeah, come be be. And I was like, and we go, oh, this is so fucking. I hate telling this story because it's just,

Luckily, I've had more interactions with her, so this isn't her only memory of me. But we go upstairs, talking to everybody, and then I go meet her, and I'm like, hi, say hello. And then we're talking for a bit. And this is very surreal in my head that it's happening. And they're like, how are you? And I'm like, good, good. And then we talk a bit about, oh, she was like great performance. And I was like this one.

And she was actually, she said, no, she was referencing the VMA performance the night before. She had seen that one. Fucked. She had seen that one. And then whatever, the comic book continues. And then they were like, how are you feeling? And I, with my whole, I, I, I, they said, how are you feeling? And I was like, hungry.

And they start laughing. And they're like, well, Jesse, there's like food and stuff. And then I, without breaking, I'm type to say, no, I'm hungry for life. Oh, man. I said, no, I'm hungry for life. I was like, I felt my stomach going like this. And I was like, and then I look up with my manager because they're not paying it. Y'all were talking to someone else.

And I look up with them and then the combo continues a bit. And I look up at them and I'm like, and I look up with Jamie. And I was like, I got to go. I'll be right back. Like I got to go. And my manager's around. I'm like, where the fuck do you got to go? What do you got to be outside of right here?

And I was like, I got to go. I'll be back. And I go outside and I find a piece of fucking grass and I sit my eyes down and I meditate. And I'm like, I got to come back to fucking earth because this is ridiculous. Like clearly that wasn't me. Clearly I just got to reconnect and get control of this because she don't got control right now. And then I just did some breathing and then thank God for the moment because I couldn't believe the moment that was happening. And then I went back upstairs and I was halfway back to human, which was great.

And I was able to behave. Sometimes we're hungry for life Sometimes we're hungry for life Okay, so, you know, along with your With some name dropping You know, you end up on I know I'm going a little out of order But you know, you end up on Coachella

And it gets canceled I was using the I told a story I know it's yours and not mine But I had, I was on Lollapalooza the last year of the tour when it was in like four, it was I think in 36 cities. And they decided to make it two nights in each city instead of one because it was so successful. But what happened was when you did two nights,

all the people who weren't performing night one were doing a show night two. And the whole tour just went away. And our release gets pushed like eight months later. And it was like, you end up on a tour, you end up on a show like that, your career starts to focus around that kind of performance and the press and all this stuff.

Granted, there were other things going on on the planet. It wasn't the only thing that was canceled. But the cancellation of that, of Coachella, and what was supposed to be the beginning of the Billy Irish tour that you were on, how did how does an artist navigate pitfalls in the industry that are out of their control you keep it moving you keep it fucking moving um also i am very grateful and i say this a lot like my squad my team is very very very dope very very dope because to be honest i wasn't i had my own

shit going on. Outside of artists and outside of COVID and outside of like the gigs, like I had my own struggles, my own mental shit, my own, I had my own struggles that were very thick at the time. And it was just, I've been really fortunate to have a team that I can lean on that haven't let the ball drop. God bless you, love you, that haven't let the ball drop when I have, not to say I dropped the ball there, but I just was, I was caught up on my own shit. I was caught up on my own shit and not losing enthusiasm and not losing, like, even, even the fact that we were willing to put out an album at the beginning of the fucking pandemic is scary, spooky, and I only was able to do that because I had a team of people that were also down for the Wild Wall West. You know what I mean?

because it was spooky. You don't know how. It was just spooky. No one was fucking doing it. I'm pretty sure it was me and like one more person that decided to release anyway. And so many fucking at-home concerts and doing fucking, I think I did one of the late night shows in my bathroom.

So real. Jimmy Kimmel from my bathroom. What an era. I mean, it's going to be so hard to explain that to like, I got a one-year-old and a three-and-a-half-year-old and it's going to be hard to explain. Ew. Like, hey.

But this is so ancient. We sound so back in the COVID time. I mean, it's going to be that. You meet, you know, 2020, you come out of COVID where a lot of musicians lost momentum. You come out and you meet Calvin Harris or maybe you obviously met him before that. How do you meet Calvin Harris? How do I meet Calvin? I met Calvin.

To him in his story, he saw. Figures online and then he reached out to me and DM and was like, yo, you're dope. People in the city are excited about you. I think you should know that. And I was like, what the fuck? I remember seeing it and I remember not believing the DM. And I remember going to the website to verify, not website, going back to his page to be like, no fucking way. And then answered him and I was like, this is insane.

You're fucking legend. Thank you. And then we talked a bit and he was like, I'm working on this project. We'd love to have you here. And then he flew me and when my manager's out. and it was only supposed to be a two-day, two-day plant, and it turned into a week, and then it turned into like, and we just kind of, like, that's my guy, that's my bro. But to me, when this is, this is, whatever, it was that year that you mentioned.

What was that? 2014 is what I have is like the songs coming out. Was it before that? Yeah. Oh, okay. So, but that was what, 2017. Oh, wow. 2017 we started working.

However, I met him in 2009 because this is when I was working as a receptionist. And I let the gym and I was doing the music hustle on the side. And I was so, I was just focused and I didn't want to waste time, especially because I worked bars. So when my friends would be like, let's go party, let's go to this rave. I'd be like, nah, unless I'm bringing mixtapes with me. me, I don't want to go waste time. Unless I'm making money at the bar, or unless I'm bringing mixtapes, I'm not trying to go. And they were like, come on, bitch, like, we'll, we'll pay for your ticket. Like, they would thug it out. And I was like, fine. So I justified it by, they're

paying for my ticket, and I'm bringing my mixtapes. So I had my little satchel, and I had, like, CDs that I would burn. And I'd get paper and stick the CD, close the paper, make a fucking ghetto-ass envelope, and put my name and my number and a happy face and bless it. And just, and had, these in my bag. And this thing at government, that was this legendary place in Toronto, where they used to have raves, had this event called Labor of Love. And Calvin Harris was playing, Cascade was playing, Steve Aoki was playing, and his different rooms. And I got there and I'm like, I'm on a fucking mission. And I gave a mixtape to Steve Aoki. I gave a mixtape to Cascade. And when I went into the, but it was intense. Like one of the rooms, one of my friends had to put

me on his shoulder and we went up to the podium. And I was like, and they, Like, what the fuck? And that was Cascade. And Cascade, I ended up getting an answer from the next day because I would spam their fucking Facebook. And they were like, hey, yeah, we got it. But at the end of the night, we couldn't find the mixtape. Sorry.

And I was like, cool. But in another room, it was Calvin. And Calvin's DJ podium was in the middle of the stage. And it had like three feet of width so my arm wouldn't reach. So I had to sneak onto the stage. So I looked at my friends. I was like, I guess I got to do this one on my own. They don't give a shit.

They're high. They're like, whatever. And I was like, cool. So I run to the stage. I got to the corner where security isn't looking. And then I jump on. And I'm like hiding in, like, this is a, I'm hiding. And I'm tiny.

So it was cool. I'm like, cool, cool. As soon as security is not looking, I'm like, and I run to his fucking, this is so stupid. But again, the shit you do when you're a kid, when you have no sense of behavior, no sense of etiquette, zero. He's in the middle of his fucking set. And I run up to the podium.

him and I'm like, hey, and he's like, what the fuck? And I take my little disc out, and I'm like waving in front of him. And he looks up and he's kind of like, he's not mad. He's kind of like, what is happening? And then when someone from his team peeps game and they're like, shit, and they run up and they like yank the CD for me. And I'm like, thank you. They yank the CD for me.

And then I look this way. And security realizes what's happening. And they start running towards me. I got more disc in my bag. I'm like, I can get kicked out. So I fucking run off stage and I go, woo. and I melt into the crowd and I didn't get kicked out, didn't get caught

and then I went to my friends, my friend was like, yeah, it was success. But it was so funny because then the first day I had this session with Calvin, I didn't say shit because I needed to, like, I was like, this guy's going to think I'm fucking nuts. I got to wait until the end of the session, and I was like, so we've met. And then I told him the story.

It was nuts. Did he remember the story? Hell no, he didn't fucking remember the story. That's another one of those things where your mom says to you, like, just so you know, and you're like, I was fine with that. You're sitting there being like, I can't tell them.

Calvin. This is a my Chicago accent just came and I said Calvin. One kiss and promises

are both just so massive and they happen right at the same time like as far as like

generally speaking do you think you've made it? I'm grateful for I'm at but I have more goals. But my goals

of like yeah it depends who you ask if you're asking little me if you're asking current me

if you're asking Teenage Me. Yeah. Let's ask little you first. Yeah. You've made it? Yeah. Let's ask teenage you.

No. What does she want? She wanted some wild shit. She wanted like, she wanted world domination. What about adult year? Oof, adult me wants peace. Huh. Yeah.

Adalt me wants peace. Yeah. Mm-hmm. What's it like being in the room? with Calvin. What is the creative process like? He's great. This is my friend.

So like we, we talk for a bit. And then, and then, man, I love working with people that just respect freedom and he'll play some shit

and let me be. Yeah. And then I'll just like make and it's just raw and big and then I'll give it to him. And then he's got that fucking ear and that thing and that compass where he'll be like, okay, this is lit, this is not, this is lit, let's put this here, and then it, and then it is.

You know, he's got that fucking thing that's so late. And I've learned a lot from him, like, watching him work and watching. Everyone I work with. It's a different skill. It's a different skill. It's a different skill. And it's a skill I didn't, I've, I've learned, like, after working with him, I've become much more cut throat when it comes to my editing.

Yeah, yeah. Much more cutthroat when it comes to my editing. But that was... You become faster at this isn't good enough. Huh? You become faster at this isn't good enough. So much faster. Yeah.

You know, so much more detached. Yeah. Yeah. And the thing is, when you work outside of music, one of the most valuable skillsets that songwriters have is when they work outside of songwriting, they're so used to being wrong 50%, 33%, 25% of the time, whatever it is, or 75% it's the opposite. You're so used to being wrong that you're okay to, even if you know that what you're bringing can be like the

shy Carter melody. You know, it's like you can, you're okay being like, you know, somebody saying, I don't know if this is right. You're not sitting there, kicking and screaming. You're just like, okay, fine, let's go.

Keep him moving. Next one. Keep him moving. So, you know. He's great. He's a legend. He's made me a better artist about working with him.

Your album that just came out, Paid in Memories, what's the story behind the title of Paidon Memories? It's a nice little microcosm of the idea money won't make you happy. Yeah, money won't make you happy. And the life well lived is a life rich in memories. It's a really good album.

Thank you. I'm going to go to a segment. I'm going to name five things. Just tell me it comes off the top of your head. Okay. M&M. Go. JZ.

Go. Biazza. Calvin Harris. Go and fucking homie. I just wanted to list those because it's funny. And Billy Elish, why not? Okay, okay, okay, okay. All right.

And then I'll just add a couple too. Your mom. Angel. Your dad. A thug. Sick. Thank you for doing this. Thank you for having me, man.

Thank you for having me. This was nice. Fuck, I'm so, thank you. I love doing these when they feel like, it's just so nice because you don't often have recognito. or opportunities to do accurate recognizance of your life. You just don't, it's like, it's, remember albums? Remember looking at photo albums when that was a thing?

And it was just so nice. And there's studies that are shown that that gives you, that used to give people so much happiness. And now that we have these, there's so much more content that there's almost less time to even go over what you've done. So thank you. Because it's so nice to live these moments and actually go through them. because it gives me joy, you know, like to remember that I'm like, this isn't normal and this isn't, this just isn't what we're doing here and when I'm, the fact that you gave a fuck, the fact that people give a fuck about songs I wrote because I was sad when I was 16 is insane.

So thank you. Yeah, I appreciate you doing this. You know, the fact that you can, again, articulate the complexities of your journey. and recognize where you're at now that the goal is peace will allow for all the abundance to come. And it's, I think we as an industry need to continue to highlight what's important in our art form, especially with the way music's being created now and being distributed now, that if it isn't about the real humans who make the music,

I'm not really sure what we're doing because it's going to get a lot easier to make music without real humans. So, you know, thank you for putting out real music and working with a lot of our friends, keeping them all employed. You're great. Thank you. Thank you. Sweet. There you go.