And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 216: Ryan Tedder (pt.3) | How to Win in Music and Life

Episode Date: July 7, 2025

Today’s guest is the mastermind behind some of the biggest songs on earth – a creative force whose melodies have shaped generations. From crafting timeless anthems with Beyoncé, Adele, and Taylor Swift to leading OneRepublic to global dominance, he’s not just a hitmaker – he’s an architect of modern music.In this conversation, Ryan Tedder rips the veil off fame and fortune, revealing the hidden costs of success, the brutal truths no one talks about, and his unfiltered blueprint for building wealth, longevity, and creative mastery in a world obsessed with trends. He dives deep into why most artists fail, how boredom became his superpower, and what it actually takes to build a legacy that lasts.This isn’t an interview. It’s a wake-up call for every creator chasing relevance in 2025 and beyond.And The Writer Is… Ryan Tedder! (Part 3)Produced by Joe London, Ross Golan, & Jad SaadChapters:00:00 Intro 00:52 His Morning Routine That Changed Everything02:06 How Boredom Made Him Creative03:40 The Hidden Dark Side of Fame05:50 Justin Timberlake’s Brutal Warning10:15 Fame is a Prison: Stories from the Top14:14 Why He Hid His Singing Talent as a Kid17:25 Lady Gaga’s Secret Ambition Revealed20:55 Money Makes You a Target23:02 His Dream: Rich But Unknown25:26 Investing Millions Outside Music27:05 Why Famous Artists Go Broke31:02 Getting Dropped Saved His Career36:13 What $50 Million a Year Really Means39:22 NMPA Sponsor Break41:01 Labels Want You Wild & Broke44:40 Can You Win Without Flexing?47:12 Managers Who Destroy Artists’ Careers50:52 Why Tate McRae Is Built Different53:37 OneRepublic’s Secret to Longevity57:12 Sync Deals vs Streaming: Where Money Really Is01:00:52 His Songwriting Secrets & ‘God Moments’01:05:00 How He Stays Creative After 20+ Years01:09:00 The Role of Trust in Hit-Making01:13:00 Stories of Working With DJs & Pop Stars01:17:00 The Future of Music & AI’s Impact01:21:00 His Philosophy on Work Ethic & Success01:25:00 Final Words: Advice to Creators01:29:00 Outro Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

To the degree that you can be the most Swiss Army knife as possible, you will have a job the rest of your life in music. Having worked with a lot of the famous people in the world, I would not wish that type of success on my kids. I had a guy tell me when I was 20. He was a Michael Jackson's business manager. And he told me, he's like, kid, if you ever make a dollar in this town, pull it out of music, put it into real estate. And I didn't know what that meant. And I was surrounded by people in the early 2000s who had these fantastic two or three year runs and then burned through all the money. The secret to success for any artist, don't let money be your guide. Be really good at what you do. Money finds you.

Envy, jealousy is the thief of joy. If you are healthy, you have good friends and good family. You wake up every day and you have a job that doesn't feel like a job. You've won the lottery in life, period. Welcome to And The Writer is. I'm your host, Ross Golan. Today's guest is Ryan Tetter. I would normally go through a long list of all the things he's done, but this is his third interview.

Oh my God. Are you ever bored? I grew up and spent 20 years in Oklahoma. Shouted Oklahoma. And anybody who's spent that much time in Oklahoma knows boredom. I was bored out of my freaking mind from the youngest age, I can imagine. And that is the time that allowed me to pursue all the things. Theater, every sport, and still have 60, 90 minutes a day to play piano.

and slowly figure stuff out and guitar and all that. So the answer to the question is I had 20 years, half my life was boredom. And I mean, how did somebody, somebody now is never bored, though. I mean, it doesn't matter. You're describing a world that doesn't exist. Even if you're in Oklahoma now, you're sitting there and you're on TikTok. On TikTok. Yeah.

That, to me, is one of the saddest things coming from someone who, who my band took, we exist because of social media. You're in a band? I have some shock surprise. Yeah, it's a Portugal a man. And, and my... Did you get mistaken for Portugal the man ever?

For John? No, he's too cool, man. He's way cooler than me. Do people ever say like, ah, play, feel it still? No. Is there a song that one of the public is asked to play? The band that we get most mistaken by and it's men over the age of, let's say,

45 or 50, mistake us for one direction. and then they look at me and they're like, which guy are you? Like, you're definitely not the handsome one. Like, which one are you? You're the Chris Kirkpatrick. I'm the Chris Kirkpatrick.

I'm the Chris. No, if I was Chris. I mean, I'm the high tenor. You mean that by saying hi tenor. Yeah, I'm the older one. Yeah, so the one direction thing, usually it's like, what's terrible is like we'll have like a, if I get noticed, it's on airplanes, coffee shops. I'm so comfortable with the level or,

whatever level of notoriety of noticeability, I don't want to ever exceed it. I don't, I don't, having worked with all the, a lot of the famous people in the world, then there are artists and that type of thing as you have, I wouldn't, I would not wish that type of success on me or my kids. How famous are you? How famous am I? I'm like once a day, if I'm out, maybe twice at most. and it's like if I'm standing in line at a coffee shop. And in L.A., two-thirds of them are other songwriters who, like, just moved to L.A. to write. So they know me for the right reason.

And then if I'm out and about in different countries, it's the same, one to two times a day. And it's not, but it's not panamonium. People don't... This is a weird question, but why aren't you more famous? There's a good answer for that. One is, I think that really and truly, I'm internally an introvert

who became an extrovert and learned how to be a crazy extrovert. I value my privacy. I've done some TV. I didn't do all the TVs. There's a lot of those TV things that I said no to that would have changed that,

that would have turned that dial up. Interesting. And without getting into specifics. Ones that you know, ones that you know that I passed on. and I had a dinner with Justin Timberlake who I've known for probably longer longer than any artist in the industry I've known him and Lance he's like Christopher Patrick yeah right exactly yeah but better golfer so I've known the

the Incinct guys since I started because we've gone over this in a previous podcast but my career started on TRL at age 1920 and that night I was out partying with all the Incinct guys while they're playing the stadium the next day. And met those guys and stayed relatively close to Justin throughout the years. We have a very close mutual friend, Aton Sugarman, who put me up in New York and paid for the first two years of my career. And so Justin told me at dinner one time in this barbecue place in New York, we were promoting, we were on our second album.

So we were pushing secrets and good life and those songs. And I was busy writing, doing the same thing. doing now and he looked at me and he goes he goes bro i got one one thing to say to you man stay right here and i was like what he's like don't get more like do not get any more famous than you are right now like be happy where you're at right now because you can walk out of this place right now they're not trying to take photos i don't know why i'm still doing a jt impression but yo sometimes i can do it for real for real though and It's really good.

It's good enough that I didn't interrupt you yet. It's like uncomfortable. Yeah. So, but he was like, stay it like this. It's like when I go to a hotel, it's like more or less like a prisoner in the hotel. He's like, I now have to have, he's like, if I go to work out, I turn around, I got four people filming me working out. Everywhere I go, I can't work out until midnight. They shut the gym down.

Then I go, can hit the gym. I stay in the top suite. I don't leave. That story I've been told by half a dozen of the world's biggest artists. You can guess who. They've all told me the same story. And I'm sitting here going, that would, I've never had real, real depression.

That would send me spiraling off planet. I go to the... Did they do something in their lives to earn that kind of a phase? in the skill like yeah because in the level of skill we know people who are really skilled and are well-known amongst their peers who don't cross over to fame and we know people are famous who are not skilled well and cross like they you know how there's multiple things TV wait do you do other impressions do I do a lot I can do other songwriter impressions let's do let's let's let's let's let's let's like you should do like how would Benny answer this

oh my god so like if you're with Ed and you're watching just down the street. Doesn't matter where you go. Anywhere. He's gonna, everyone knows who he is. He's literally more famous than like Moses. That's pretty good. How often do you do these?

Do you do them at home? I literally texted him like 30 minutes before I got here by the way. He's like, I just got back to L.A. Do you want to get up? Stare at each other's dicks. Yeah. That checks out. Yeah.

No, so like how do you, the line between. I don't think fame is healthy for anyone. There are a handful of people that are endowed preternaturally from the time they are born to be. Why are you using such big words? Can we dumb this down a little bit? Are we not wordsmiths? Yeah, yeah.

We are songwriters. Okay, so let's go back. I know, but for real. So, okay. So, yeah, we don't have to dive into anti-disestablishmentarianism anytime soon. Not yet. But there are people that are preternatural. inclined to be the fame monster, right?

I met Gaga when she went by Stephanie and she was a club kid at Swade in New York, you know, down in Chelsea. And she was there every night. I was there a lot because I was crashing on my friend's couch who owned the place. J.T. was there. It was like the early 2000s New York club scene

was crazy, crazy, crazy, crazy. And then I saw her, I didn't connect the dots that it was the same person. but I saw her in Malta. We were playing Isle of MTV on my birthday. Apologize era. And she came up to me. Just Dance had been out for 30 days.

Yeah, massive. She's backstage wearing a bathing suit and sunglasses. And she walks up to me and said something of the fact. Somehow without it being prideful or boastful at all, it didn't come. It came across as authentic. She was very kind. If you've ever met, she's one of the nicest artists. She was like, my intention is to be the biggest artist in the world.

and I'm doing it. And it was so matter of fact. And I was like, I kind of believe you. And then she did. I don't, my dream artist, for all any aspiring artists out there, you know, the same is true with money, okay?

The moment people think or you announce, oh, look how wealthy I am, you're a target. The coolest thing, I was sitting in a restaurant in New York City that my buddy owns. and we were talking about fame. And he said, what's your goal?

I said, I'd like to be, you know, everyone wants to be appreciated for the things they've done, but I don't want to be worshipped in any way. I spent my high school and middle school in the choir, hiding in the choir, knowing, having the choir teacher being like, you need to do solos, you need to be the one out front singing.

I was like, I'm in the choir. I think part of that was being raised super Christian, super religious, you're taught from a day one, it's not about me. I'm part of this group. And if I seek attention and I seek fame and those things, that's like that's not of God. That's not Christ-like. That literally was like that was how drilled into me since I was a kid. So even when I, so all of my singing, all of my songwriting was literally, my singing was done literally in the closet. Upstairs, carpet, it's the 90s, everyone's carpet. And I've got closer where I'd shut the door in the closet, shut the door to my bedroom, sing for an hour, two hours

a day, practicing boys to men, practicing the police, like trying to match tone and do riffs and imitate. All I was doing was impersonations. And quietly, though, and I was petrified of putting myself out there and being like, look at me, look at me, look at me, because of more of a spiritual reason than anything else. And so I was the rel-one, one of our first managers, Missy Worth, who managed like yellow card and different things. She's like, you're the most reluctant lead singer I've ever met. Like, you clearly are and should be a lead singer, but like you're, what's the reluctancy? And I couldn't explain to someone who wasn't raised how I was raised in the church that I was raised. You can't explain that, like, baked in humility and like,

that. And so it took a long time. And I think the dream... I mean, now you jump off drum risers. Dude, now I'm nuts. I don't, well, I have no fear and I have no social anxiety about that. So now I'm more comfortable cracking jokes in front of literally 50,000 people and trying to make them laugh than a room of five people, which is such a weird dichotomy. But last thing I'll say is the dream of fame to me, the ideal. I keep using restaurants, but that's kind of where you notice if someone is famous. I was in a restaurant in Berlin. We were on tour as a band.

We had the same promoter as Depeche Mode. Oh, cool. And I like Depeche Mode. They were huge before I was old enough to appreciate them. So I really liked their music, but I'm not like die-hard Depeche Mode, right? But I like their music. So I didn't realize how big they were. and especially in Europe and everywhere else in the West.

They're massive off of just like a couple, two or three albums, right? I know they put out more, but really, really it's two or three albums that made them, right? And it's like if you got big in the 80s, you're big forever kind of deal. So I'm in the restaurant. The band walks in, the lead singer walks in, he walks up to the promoter, gives him a hug, a high five, I stand up and say hi. He looks like a cool rock star guy, right? not one person in that restaurant

did I see clock him in a 10 minute window the lead singer of Depeche Mode Do you know why they're in Berlin they're playing two nights at a stadium Why didn't they Because right now Picture Depeche Mode

Yeah right Now anyone in this room Name the lead singer I mean isn't it? I don't know There you go No no you already answered my question You already answered my question So when I saw that, juxtaposed with being around Justin, being with Bruno's band,

I remember when the day the counting stars like went number one in the UK, we were in London and Bruno's band was there. Bruno and everybody was there. They were promoting one of his billion hits. And he stopped me on the street outside the hotel. I was like, hey man, congrats song. Congrats on. Congrats on. That song's crazy. I was like, thanks, dude. And then they were walking into the hotel. And then I go down to the bar and it's like me and Calvin Harris, randomly's theirs. He texts me randomly. He's like, did I see you in the lobby of the Corinthia? I'm like, yeah, we're here. Let's come down and grab a drink. Ironic because Calvin doesn't drink, he drinks water. So we go down and... Interesting anecdote.

Yeah, interesting. For a DJ to drink only water. Calvin Harris is the healthiest recording artists alive. Like literally boiled chicken, rice, broccoli, blueberries, water. Like, it's wild. What do you eat in a day? I don't eat that. I don't have... I eat pretty healthy. Except for the donut. Except for the donut. That's my first donut in probably about three or four months. But yeah, that donut was phenomenal. Somebody can eat the other half.

I try to eat, yeah, California, healthy. You know, I try to, I eat. Why don't you eat boiled chicken? I don't have a personal chef. I don't. There's a lot of the trappings of writing, producing. Why does Genevieve cook? I cook.

I cook, she cooks too, but like I love cooking. Not as much as Benny, but I love cooking. And then we order from local places, you know, that are healthy. We definitely try to keep it healthy. We definitely try to keep it healthy. But yeah, you want to be, you want to be, can you, if you can have success without fame, money without fame, that's the dream. Be the guy in the corner booth that could buy the restaurant, but that nobody stops for photos.

The easiest way, the truth that if you're rich doesn't mean you're famous and if you're famous, it doesn't mean you're rich. Oh, yeah. That, that chiasm. Yeah. Nice. Pink. Yeah. Um, is it chasm or chasm? I think it's a chasm. Well, either way. Well, chasm is like a potato, potato lasagna.

Who cares? I could buy this restaurant with an NFT. By the last time you were on, you were super into NFTs. Yeah. I still have some. Yeah, I'm sure you do. They think, thank God I just waited long enough. They finally got back up to about what I paid.

Yeah. I think, you know, crypto. I'm long on it, so I don't sit around tracking it, but I'm just kind of like, when I'm, you make decisions, a good decision is that is. This should be the end of that sentence. A good decision. Make decisions. A good decision is one you make when you're armed with all the information in the world

that you can get on that day. So it's like, when I made the decision, I was like, I'm good with it up or down. It went hella down. It went up. And then like an idiot, I didn't sell. I had a friend that made millions. on NFC. Millions.

And he just nerded out and lived in that space. Yeah, you have to live in that space. You have to live in it, man. You try to dip your toes in day trading. Like, hell no. Like, don't do that. Yeah.

I mean, that's a crypt. But you're still like, you know, you still post about crypto. Oh, yeah. I've done really well with those bets. Because the companies outside of music, what little time I have, I do like, I had a guy tell me

when I was 20 in L.A. in his house, Larry Larson. He was a Michael Jackson's business manager for a number of years. And he told me, he's like, kid, if you ever make a dollar in this town, pull it out of music, put it into real estate. And I didn't know what that meant. And I said, what does that mean? What do you mean? Buy a house?

I don't have a family in real estate. He's like, buy some books. And he told me some books to buy. I bought him. What books are that? I mean, funny enough, like, the idiot's guy did commercial real estate. was like literally the dummies guide to that stuff. And this is before like, you know, chat, GPT and XAI can tell you everything. But I was so nervous, you know, there was it,

and we'll get on to the topic of the middle class of songwriters, but there was a healthy middle class of songwriters that I knew in Nashville. I say middle class, not negatively, I mean positively, that we're making a great living, a house and a car and vacations and little vacation house on a lake. And they just were having like album cuts on big albums and the occasional single. And so I wanted to take whatever I made, get it out of music. And, you know, granted, this guy who's telling me this, I'm standing in his mansion in Beverly Hills, first real mansion I'd ever been in. And it was like one of the former like Warner Brothers house. I mean, it was a crazy house. And he told me, he was like in the early 80s, I decided I got out of music because I couldn't

take the stress. And I took the money I had, leveraged it, and I bought Saks Fifth Avenue. Right after the market crash in the early 80s, I bought Sacks Fifth Avenue. I bought Neiman Marcus. He bought three of the craziest buildings in Beverly Hills. And just time, you know, let time go by. And you know the rest of it. This isn't a real estate podcast, but that became my MO is like, okay, if I make any money, I can't lose it. And I was surrounded by people in the early 2000s. producers and writers, some of whom you know, who had these fantastic two or three year runs and then burned through all the money. Artists, producers, writers. That is not for, that I'm not going to name on here, whose cars and houses got repoed, who had a great 24 months and didn't

understand the math of what was coming in versus what was going out. And their burn, the difference stream being famous and rich and rich and famous, it's expensive to be famous. It's expensive. Some of the artists that I've worked with in the past could not get on a commercial jet. People go, oh, that's so bougie. Why can't you fly commercial? Because if you've ever gotten on a commercial plane where the people on the plane clock who you are, and then for six hours or 12 hours on a flight to Singapore, whatever, you're having literally people, person after person after person walk up to you. If you have any anxiety at all, you will black out on that situation.

And so a lot of artists that I know that you wouldn't think they spend a fortune traveling private because of that. And they have to have security because they had one incident. All it takes is one incident that is life-threatening or scary. And then you go, well, add 300 grand a year to my whatever overhead because now I need a full-time security guy. or two, you know. Yeah.

It's wild out there. I mean, I went to zoo with a pop star this weekend. Yeah. Nice. That's a T-shirt. I went to the zoo with a pop star. This is a true story. I love the term pop star.

Continue. No, we were talking about another pop star who had to sell a lot of their assets to pay for this debt that they've accrued. Yeah. Yeah, I know. And you're like, you know, it's hard for people to wrap their heads around why you'd have to sell everything you've worked on for your life at a young age for such an astronomical number to survive. Because when you, if you break when you're young, or you break when you're 18 or you break

when you're 13 or 20, unless you break in your late 20s, I'll just, let me just leave it at that. Unless you were lucky enough to not find success until 27, which I consider to be, I was lucky. Honestly. I mean, we, same age. Because of that, because, and also, maybe the best thing that ever happened to either of us in our lives was that our first record. Yeah. The best thing that. Our first record deals, my ego is big enough.

Yeah. and I had done enough that had it worked, I would have never been able to handle. The best thing that could happen, the secret to success for any artist is getting dropped once. The best thing that happened to me was getting dropped by Columbia. And I started making a living in music at age, I mean, technical living at age 23.

I won a record deal at 1920, and it was up in vapor. Three years later, I'm still broke. and then 24-25 kind of ramped up and then 26-27 it really I made it right that was the best thing that could have happened because you remember being broke that's a that's a monkey you can't ever get off your back and so if you don't go through that if you are on private jets and unlimited expense accounts and money money money at a young age dude no one no one in the music industry sits you down it's like the record label goes oh

by the way, here's your personal financial advisor that we're assigning you so that you don't go tits up five years from now and spiral off earth and depression because you spent everything you made. You know, I worked with producers who would keep private jets on the tarmac so long with the engines on that they'd have to pull in new pilots and cycle through new pilots because they're they they passed their legal hours. right if you're using a G550 as a taxi unless you're a billionaire you're going to go broke there is such a thing what happens is you get into tens of millions of dollars of income and you think this is never going to end you're also you're told what you made that year let's like i'm using a real number from an artist recently i know who had like their first huge year gross gross 50 million 50 million in one year okay that's the number they tell you and that's an insane number by the way it's a huge artist so don't get

don't get, you know, misconstrued. This artist, they tell you 50. Yeah, you brought in 50 million this year, man. You're crushing it. Now let's do the math. Okay. If you're in California, first of all, agents, you know, attorneys, business managers, managers, you know, subtract roughly 20 to 25% off the top of that number, right?

So, you know, now you're down to call it 38 million. million dollars roughly right there's 25% you're down to 38 roughly 38.5 um now cut that and now you're 49% of that because of California tax and federal income tax so now you're you know uh whatever 19.25 million right now subtract out what you spent that year on private jets and everything else and so that number a lot of artists that I know don't want to get in when I got into music it was disgusting to be about the money, right? To like zoom in on that. It's like it wasn't as uncouth.

It's not cool. It's like, no, focus. It's right brain. Focus on the art. Focus on the writing. Don't let money be your guide. And I agree. Chasing money is like chasing after the wind.

Be really good at what you do. Money finds you. But to turn such a blind eye to that that you don't know how to manage it or you can't even do the math is. sad and it happens to so many artists and writers and producers in this industry. Once you sign that record deal or that publishing deal, I've joked for years. It's like the label or the publisher also hands you this button and the moment it's the arrested development button. And the moment you sign that paper, whatever age you signed that deal at, you pause personal

development. The label wants you to be wild. Like the crazier your character, especially you with social media now, the more you peacock, the crazier you are, the nuttier you are, the better. Label's not going to tell you, you know what, those $75,000 grills that you just got, or that embedded diamond tooth, the crazy purple Rolls-Royce SUV that you drive around in now and post, that's a bad idea. They're never going to tell you that. So we live in a society that like everything is loud. Everyone is launching fireworks 24-7. Everyone.

So the only way you get seen is the bigger, brighter firework. And if that's the case, you are disincentivized to be prudent and save your money and invest into all these things. You are incentivized to burn that cash, throw it in the camera,

be crazy, do all these things. So how, you know, if a young artist wants to be, successful and you're giving them advice, don't spend your money, how does somebody get noticed if they're not peacocking all over social media? Well, I think there's a, there's the right and the wrong way to do it. I think certain genres are more inclined to peacock on the money side of things, right? Going back to early days, early 2000s and rap videos is throwing cash around in crazy cars and trying

to keep up with the Joneses. And I'm not saying it's just in rap. And I'm not saying it's just in rap in that genre specifically, but it was more prevalent in that. I lived it. I was on some of those video shoots with the fake money, thrown it in the air. I think, look, I think that we also live in the age of authenticity. I think that the, when I'm talking about the money thing, I'm talking about once you've made it, be careful. Private jets are expensive. Do you have to keep up with the Joneses? You've got all, you've got, you know, people see how much money you have because a lot of, on some level, because you can, like, press loves writing about people who sell things. Of course. No.

Do you feel like you have to keep up with anybody? Anytime I catch myself, you know, whatever it is, you know, envy is the thief of joy. I truly believe that. envy, jealousy is the thief of joy. And at the risk of sounding like a cliche Instagram post, I honestly believe if you are healthy, you have good friends and good family, you wake up every day and you have a job that doesn't feel like a job,

you've won the lottery in life, period. I still own one house. I think I'm the only person in my friend group that doesn't own a vacation house. We have one house. The only other place we bought is the studio compound that I work out of. Why? I thought you were supposed to be in real estate.

I am. I own a ton of real estate. I own a lot of... No, no, no, don't get it twisted. Okay. Yeah. We're in the millions and score footage now on commercial real estate. I enjoy what I've made.

anyone who knows me well I work my work ethic hasn't changed since I was 18 I worked the same but I vacation really hard and like so we we that's where I spend the money is like flying friends and family my favorite thing is to like fly

18 family members to some part of the world that they've never been like we went like you know a couple years ago or a year and a half we went to 18 family members to Phuket to Thailand they've never been to Thailand the Caribbean you know exotic

locations, Europe, Tuscany. It's true that like you, you get a lot of joy out of, not perfecting, but pursuing, like, mastering whatever your craft is. You get maybe more joy. Once you've been to a place and you've done something, it's as satisfying, if not more, to if someone you've taught gets it and you see the light switch on and now they're great at that thing, right? Same is true with travel, which.

is the reason that I think I've stayed in this band this long, honestly, beyond the music is I get to see the world. You know, I get paid to see. Sometimes I see too much of it. Two weeks ago, I saw too much of it in two weeks and I almost spun off the earth. I literally just went crazy. But why do you still do it? I still love it. You've seen everywhere. I still, well, I went to Azerbaijan two weeks ago. I've never been there. How many countries have you been to? I haven't counted in a long time. I know it's over 90 that we've been to and played. Do you fly commercial ever? All the time. All the time. Yeah. We fly charter when we have to. So I look at it as a, there are certain gigs, especially private gigs, where I do the time cost value of money. So, and that's not just in terms of like work hours, but family hours.

So private travel is a time machine. Use it when you have to. And if you can bake that cost into the fee of you doing a show, even better. And so that's what we try to do. So if I have to get, so I'll give you an example, like we have a gig in a couple weeks where we're playing private gig in Cincinnati followed by New York City, right? The only way, like physically the only way we can get, we can play the show in Cincinnati and get to New York City where we have an afternoon gig is on a private plane.

There's no other way for us to do it. For me to be able to sing and have a voice, we have to walk off that stage, get on tarmac, fly to New York, go to bed, wake up, and then I'm on stage three hours later. So just to wake up my voice. And then I'll fly commercial back because there's a billion flights a day from New York to L.A. When do you schedule a haircut? I had one yesterday morning.

Where? At my studio. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You just became more efficient. Jen saw me get my haircut in the back the other day. And it was a funny moment of just like, oh, that's when. The first haircut, the studio haircut I ever saw, which I thought was like, I remember thinking, whoa, you made it, bro.

How'd you get a barber to come to you? And it was Timbaland. We were at Miami, Hit Factory, Miami, and he was like working on who knows what, like, Missy or something. And I remember the barber rolled up in the studio, and he stepped out into the lounge. And I was like, I literally remember being like, oh, my text to my, that girlfriend. I was like, yo, Tim's getting a haircut. at the studio. That's crazy. I thought that was so crazy. There's like a list of things.

In LA, give me three things that happen that you didn't know was even available when you were younger that you're like, oh my God, if you do this, you can get blank. Okay. People that roll up to your house and wash your car at your house. What? Oh my God. I would say, let's see, in LA. I mean, same could be true as like you pull up to a nice restaurant

or shopping and they wash your car. I thought that was crazy. Okay, I'm about to blow your mind. I'm from, you know, Oklahoma. I don't remember valet. This is going to sound, this is so generic, but it was non-existent. In the 90s, non-existent.

Like, valet, wait, why are you taking? my car. No, no, no, no, it's my car. It's like, first time I get to L.A., the guy runs up to my car and is like, I'm driving an 85 Bronco, and he's like, goes to grab my keys. I'm like, the hell are you thinking, man, get out of here. It's like, no, no, no, no, valet. I'm like, valet. Why are you speaking French? Why are you speaking French? Why so snobby? Bonjour to you. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, come see, come saw, bitch. So, you know, valet to me was very foreign. And then when I got hit with the first valet bill, I was like, well, that's literally how much I paid, you know, to eat my dinner.

Yeah. Yeah, it's like that was, I, the valet matched the Magianos. So at the Grove. So like, so like valet was crazy. People pulling up to wash your car at your house is crazy. And personal chefs. Oh, personal chefs. Listen, I love it.

First time I really experienced it was at Stargate Studio. when I first moved back to LA in 2017, I'd been in Denver for eight years. Nobody does that, unless you're like one of the athletes, athletes do that in Denver. And Toro McKell are the nicest guys on planet Earth. They're like,

I start smelling like Brussels sprouts from the upstairs. I'd been back in L.A. for a month. And they're like, Ryan, come on, man. Time to go downstairs. You want some food. Time to eat. You know?

And I was like, what? And we go downstairs. And there's like this lady with like skillets. and it literally looked like Jalina. It's like, like, I'm pretty sure it was the chef from Jolina, actually. That's like the ultimate flex. It's like, no, no, no. This is like, when you played on me the other night, you're like,

I'm like, oh, this tastes like John and Vinnie's. Well, that's John and that's Vinny. They're here. Like, you know, it's like, oh, my God. So. Don't blow up my spot. Sorry, man. Sorry, sorry, sorry. Shout out, shout out John.

Yeah. So the personal chef thing was like, I get it. And I haven't, I haven't crossed that threshold yet. Only because, like, I'm not going to schedule when I'm going to eat. and I'm doing like... There's some things that like that we talk about that are pretty wild.

Like the airport, the apartments at LAX that you can go where you, where you can go and it's like then they drive you straight to the plane and I had that one time. I didn't know. It's great if you're not American

and you land and you're like then you go straight to these apartments where there's one person who checks your... I had a show, we did three nights at this new VIII. in Colorado last August, and we were playing Somersonic, Tokyo, and Osaka that week. So I flew, I had to charter from Denver to L.A. to L.A.X. I got zipped over to that apart. I didn't know that existed until August. I was like, what is this? And I get over there,

they're like, sir, would you like an old-fashioned? Here's the shower. Do you want a back rub? like you want me to like you know read your palms i mean it was the it was the most intense thing and and uh and i still don't know what part of lax that was i haven't seen it since it's like a dream and i'm like by the way i don't even know what airline that was i just it was a VIP experience they took me by some super fast car to my gate and then i got on a 1 30 a m to Tokyo and i was like refreshed a little buzz from the old-fashioned i was like that was the greatest experience I've ever had in an airport. Yeah, anyway, that's what happens, I guess.

Some of the trappings. There are a bunch of those in L.A. And it's shocking as you, like, peel the curtain back. You're like, oh, that's how they do that. That's how they do that. You've released some music since our last combo. I keep thinking, like, that, like, isn't there a time when you're like, I'm good?

Yeah, like, you work harder, you work as hard. now as you did ever. In 2005. Maybe more. Actually harder, yeah. I'd say, I'd say not harder.

Aren't you tired? I'd say more efficient. That's the best question. I would say there are days. I definitely have my days where I'm, you know, like,

oh man, I just want to be on an island. We go to, we go to the Caribbean. I know you. Yeah. You would show up at that island. you'd be like, is there a studio here?

Exactly. Well, yeah, dude, I write in hotels now, so like, I'm good. I could do a lot of what I do. If you, like, look, man, everybody posts whatever. So, you know, I'm not with you on those, you know, when you're traveling around the world. But I do see, you know, you have your studio in your backpack. On the plane. Yeah.

You have your studio in the hotel. Yeah. It's video games for me. So to answer to like, I've been asked this question a lot and I've tried to give it a good The most Now you're criticizing my interview. No, no, no, no, no. No, I haven't been asked that. I haven't been asked it like that.

Oh, you're just like, bro, are you tired? Oh, let's go back. Aren't you tired? Aren't you tired? Exactly. So going back to what I said earlier, like when you have a job, there are stressors in this job that I hate, that we all hate. One of those. I don't like bad managers who I can tell don't know what the hell they're doing

and I can I can smell it from a mile away. I'm 20 some odd years in so I can tell. The managers who don't know what they're doing are far worse than the managers who do. Because the ones who do, they may, they will be very succinct in how they're going to correct, correct. And you at least know what you're getting. NMPA is the premier organization for music publishers and their songwriter partners. It's their mission to engage.

increase the value of music, and that's exactly what they do. NMPA is working right now to raise royalty rates for songwriters from streaming services, radio, social media, and everywhere, music is essential. From the courts to Congress, NMPA works to get songwriters what they deserve. I know because I've served on the board before, and I'm the current co-chair, along with Ryan Teter and Liz Rose for the Golden Platinum Club. So again, thank you NMPA for supporting and The Writer is and songwriters everywhere. One of my biggest, you know, I'm going to speak in generalities here. One of the biggest frustrators for me, or stressors, is you mean an artist you know is

exceptional that has the ability to cut through. And then I meet the manager and I realize in a two-minute conversation, you have no idea what you're doing. And you are punching so far below the weight of the artist. But this artist, we all operate when we start in this career on fear. So what do we do is we find things that, you know, the mountains, like once you conquer fear, then it becomes legacy, you know, and all these different things, money, legacy, et cetera. Fear is the first mountain. Once you are, if you've gotten high enough on it as an artist, odds are a lot of artists,

they've pulled in someone that's like a comfort blanket to them that believed in them when they were earlier in their stage in their career, right? And this person, if you're new to the music industry, as an artist, you have no technical proficiency in how to gauge the skill set of your manager. Why would you? How could you, right?

So you come by it honestly. This is a guy, I'm from, I'm making this up. I'm from Tampa Bay. I'm an artist, yada, yada. And this guy I went to high school with. this girl I went to high school with, they're articulate and they believed in me and they booked me some gigs locally

and got me in a studio and whatever. Therefore, you now get to control the rest of my career. Now, when you say it like that, you're like, wait, that's crazy. Exactly. And then there's a, I would say, disproportionate amount of loyalty

that some artists will give to managers who really shouldn't manage them. And that loyalty is based in comfort, trust, history. It's based in some real things, right? I'm not throwing, I'm not throwing shade at all these managers. But it's hard for me as a writer-producer because I have to be so much more strategic with my time now on who I'm spending time on and why to be efficient and to continue to be successful. I can't just say yes to all the sessions. So sometimes I'll meet an artist and I'll go, wow, they have it. I can't work with that manager. And so I will not work with

the artist. That was a tough lesson that I like getting some EP opportunities where you're like, yeah, okay, I'll spend the time on this. And I knew the managers. I was like, yeah, but I like the label. But when it comes down to it, the person who's going to be in the artist's ears is the manager. So I think that they're, it's a marriage, right? So you can invest your time as much. You can write the best song on earth. And if that partner, if that partner, that marriage that the artist has with the manager is if they're not married with someone equipped to handle that relationship and that that career it's it's a bit like what's that term like casting pearls before swine it's like it's not it's not going to work out and the phrase i the phrase i use

all too often now as i'm working is i've seen this movie a hundred times i know how it ends who are the top three managers for artists? Oh, that's such a subjective question. And I'll get, I will get destroyed by answering that. Some of the best ones, Ron Lafitte, my manager. I've been with him for, you know, 16 years. Manges, one in public, me, Usher, Backstreet Boys. He's had a cadre of other, you know, a bunch of other artists, right?

You know, I think, you know, the Azoff family, you know, Irving and Jeff is great. I think, you know, I think Brandon Creed is great. I think, you know, the whole, all the managers I worked with with the Azov group have been very proficient and smart. You know, I think there's great managers in the UK and kind of all over the, I'm leaving out like five names. But here's what I'd say, because I don't want to get iced for failing to mention a handful of other managers, which I'm sure I just did. I would say that it's, I would say it's probably about 50-50. I would say about half the artists out there are properly aligned with good management and half probably aren't. It's so weird. When you have these conversations with artists where you see

the manager tanking their career and you try to subtly say like, hey, I don't, like, I'd rather you not work with me. Yeah. And go get another manager. manager. 100%, and like that loyalty is real. I always let it

play out though. I've seen even in just the last year, I can think of like a handful of big artists who have parted ways

with their manager and finally pull the plug. Dude, it's, it sucks. So I'm speaking from empathy.

Having had to part ways of managers and fire some managers, it literally is the closest, I think I broke out in hives the first time I had to like fire my manager. It's a divorce. If you've been with that

person for five to ten years, it's a divorce. It feels like here's the divorce papers and unreconsalable differences. And here's why, which is why that first manager you get really educating yourself as an artist early on and doing your homework with AI now. You can actually look up who are good managers, what the roster is, you know, all those different things. I think that's a stressor. I think dealing with like, you know, artists obviously can be

some artists are easy, some artists are difficult. What makes an artist easy? When an artist I'd say probably one of the the things that makes an artist easy would be when there is a, if there is a

mutual level of trust and, I guess respect, but like of trust, then the whole thing becomes easier. With effectively marketing, working an album, an artist's career, when it's a true two-way dialogue, and I trust you to do XYZ, the artist is steering the ship at the end of the day,

especially now with social media and them, unfortunately, I make the joke that it's like, if you're a major label now, I'm not throwing all marketing departments under, you know, under the bus because there are some great marketing plans out there and some great marketing departments out there and people, right? But kind of, kind of, no matter what they pitch you, with rare exception, here's your marketing plan.

And that's rough. Like the fact that 50% of my job now used to be just writing songs and trying and like laser focused on writing hits and studying ones that work and understanding why. and defining it, studying where music might be going genre-wise and trend-wise, like a DJ. Like I was with a couple of DJs this past week and with Diplo yesterday. DJs have the best thumb on the pulse. Geta knows what's trending worldwide, what's coming next better than any human alive. Whether you love him, hey, or in between, I love the guy.

The guy's the number seventh most listened to artists alive. He knows what is about to happen better than anybody. And he's still passionate about it. Like, he just exudes passion and excitement in the room. It's infectious. It's incredible. I love it. Diplo's the same way.

He's talk about maniac. Like, he outworks everybody. He's like, I don't know how he's standing and does more gigs per year than anyone ever should. But he, in doing that, he can tell you if the drum pattern you're using is not going to work and why. We had this conversation yesterday on a song. That's the type of attention to detail that I have, that I adhere myself to and am still passionate about.

So when an artist trusts that I'm paying attention to that and lets me do my job with that stuff, even if it's risky or weird, you know, I'm going to trust them. I know that they ultimately have to lean in. And vice versa. And vice versa. When you're working with an artist who's like, this isn't the right drum pattern, that's like, okay, let's try another one. Because you start to, you trust them.

100% of that given take. Yeah. And I guess what I would say to answer that question even better is when I'm working with someone, and I'll use her as an example because it's present tense and makes sense. If I'm working with Tate, for instance, she pays so much attention to what is happening globally on the internet musically like her instinct on stuff

is really good so I have a level of trust there where if she tells me something it's like I don't even got to research it I know she's speaking the truth I know that it's real right if I'm working with a new artist who puts their foot down and tells me like reads me the gospel

on this is this is what we're doing kind of deal that's what I'm talking about when I'm a little like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, like you've caught one song, congrats. And this doesn't happen, thankfully, that often. But like, when I can tell that someone who hasn't been doing it long enough and isn't aware enough yet is kind of telling the room, this is how it is, that's being difficult.

There's not a mutual trust there. What does Tate McCray have that no other artist has right now? that's a really good question um a couple things so i'll state the obvious first she can i've said this before but she can she truly was so equipped to be the pop star that she is 15 years 20 years of dancing right that's part of that's part and parcel of that game and she nobody can out dance her in the music space. Nobody has the training that she has. Nobody has that commitment. She was a professional athlete. So not only is she a professional athlete, like physically, she took that same level of focus in Acumen and just, she took that like laser beam and pointed it at music.

When she told me, the first stuff she posted, she was like, I wasn't a singer. I was a dancer. And then she understands the internet. She really is the full package. She is, I used to joke with her. I was like, you're the internet. Like, because she understands, she grew up with it at the tip of her fingers and was steering the ship from YouTube at age 15 on. I've been, I met her when she was 16, been working with her since she was 17 with 1035, the Tiesta record. That was the first thing we did. And I watched her along this whole way steer the ship. She makes creative.

We, there's a push and pull there. Like, like, we, at least, once a song just end up toe to toe, like she's super determined and, you know, like, stubborn and so am I. And so, but from that tension, we end up with records that thankfully keep connecting. I can't tell you how many versions of sports car we did. You know, we have a record dropping Friday, two Fridays from now that's, that's for Formula One that's been teased. And there was a leaked version of it and all this internet chatter about it. We have to ingest the song Wednesday.

She's in London tomorrow punching vocals. It's that obsessive dedication to detail. You have to believe in yourself to be really successful. Everyone I've met that's exceedingly successful believes in themselves to a point of absurdity. She has that. And she, her work at, and this is the last thing I'll say, assume that everyone is more talented than you. I said this the other night when we were having that dinner.

When I'm in any room, you know, when I got to L.A., when I got my record deal, when I got to Nashville and all of the places I lived, I operated under the assumption that everyone was potentially more talented than I was. And so then it occurred to me, when I was in middle school and high school, the only way I went from eighth place to first place in basketball and MVP, it was whatever the hours were that everyone was putting in. and I doubled them. And the work ethic component is the life-changer, period. And Tate has that to the nth degree. So that is what makes her different. People look at bands now and pretty much say, like, it's done for bands. Like, bands just like, as far as the level of success.

Now, there are some outliers. We know people who have one song here, one song there. You know, I mean, speaking of GEDA, you obviously did a GEDA, one Republic, you know, a song. and that was, you know, has streamed incredibly well. You have, you work on sync, you do all these things. Why hasn't one republic, why doesn't one republic have the same fate as other bands that have come and gone during your tenure? Probably two things.

I'm insane. So there's, I am like questionably. you know, questionable. Fair. So that's part of it. That checks out. That checks out. There aren't any other bands that has

where one member of the band, and I'm not just saying the lead singer, where a member of the band is consistently, perpetually writing like modern competitive records for other artists and staying in the zeitgeist.

And for me, I that all the production I do and all the songs that I write I do two songs a day pretty much five days a week which sounds crazy in L.A. kind of in L.A. that sounds a little crazy. Go to Nashville man. That's what they do. They do two to three. It's fine. That's kind of surprising that like an A&RG came over here yesterday is like you know the difference between you and listed a few other people and some of these other people that you write you write every day. Yeah. I feel like, because when we came up, we were doing two a days.

Yeah. Yeah. That the idea of doing one a day makes me feel like I'm lazy. Yeah, for sure. And I can't quite understand. Yeah. What he was referring to is really complicated. Like what are you doing if you're a songwriter and not writing songs?

There's a lot of different types of approaches to songs. I try to, you know. I just want to add this. I don't finish songs every day. Same. but I write every day. Same, same. I, you know, to complete the thought on your, on your first question is that I still care, I stay creative.

The band has so much fun together. We laugh together. It's the closest thing. None of us have brothers in real life. So it's the closest thing we have to brothers. And I went to high school with Zach, you know, like they've slept on each other's couches. Like, it's truly a family. We're still having fun.

And we laugh all the time. They're really nice people. They're very nice guys. It's, I feel like that feels flippant and not. But it's different when you're like, oh, we can name other bands where somebody in the band's a dick. Yeah. And you're like, oh, this isn't going to work forever because eventually these guys are going to get sick. And, you know.

What do you do when you find? There are other people you've worked with in the past that are dicks that no longer work with you. Correct. It's not like... Correct. Correct. Yeah, there's... When you find cancer, you cut it out.

Yeah. So if you spot cancer early on in a band, you cut it out. We did that. We've done that, you know, a couple times. And that's kept us together. Number two is you have to still want it. Number three, you have to feel like, personally, I think, psychologically, to maintain success and not implode, you...

Everyone needs to feel like you're actually getting bigger and growing. And I say this with genuine like shock, I thought at some point, I told the band, whatever point I realize we've crested and we're going backwards, I will likely bow out gracefully. I'm not going to be the band playing the San Jose State Fair in 2035. Like, I won't do it. No amount of money. No amount of clinging on to something. Do you think, you know, working on the F1 soundtrack and working on, you know,

you've gotten the top gun side track. Do you feel like that's an opportunity for you to both highlight the band and your songwriting and one? Yeah, for sure. I sync from a songwriter perspective, the unsung hero of songwriting and the less sexy but punch above your weight category of songwriting is TV and film. I do it a ton. I do it every week.

Speaking of like making good income. you can kill it. I have songs that were singles on artists where I've made, I'm not even joking, 10x on sync what I made off radio or streaming. And so... And when you're selling your catalog,

the songs are generally agnostic. If you have these, you know... Sync monsters. If you have sync monsters, those things will be as valuable as some song that went number one that everyone's like, I remember that.

How did that go? Yeah. You know, that's not going to do nearly as well as the one that just lands every single car commercial. Yeah, I have those songs that are, you wouldn't even know the song, but if I told you what it had made, you would not believe it, that are not hits, but they're sync hits.

You know, it's great when you have a real hit that becomes a sync hit. I ain't worried it's one of those. But, like, for me, I saw that as we live in the attention economy right now, right? and so when I'm writing songs, I have a switch between left and right brain that I try to flip between throughout the day. When I'm writing songs, I'm full right brain. There is no part of my brain that's analyzing

what demographic and what's the final listener. I'm not thinking, I'm not money-balling songwriting. When I'm writing, it's full creative. It's like leave room. I'm operating in the moment and instinctive and you've got to leave, I call it like the God factor, you've got to leave room in the room,

room in the room for God to enter the room and give you that crazy idea that doesn't happen every day, but when it does, you know it. And so I thoroughly love that. The moment that initial song is sketched out and done, I switched that flip, that valve to left brain. I then break down the song,

rejigger the arrangement, go into like songland mode and I have fun doing that. That's the video game part. It all feels like playing video games to me. Earlier you said, are you tired? How do you not get tired? Because writing songs to me feels the closest thing I could equate it to is like playing Call of Duty or Super Mario Kart.

One of the best parts of our job is that we also get to work on so many different kinds of music. And so I don't get bored as long as if every artist is different. If every project is different, than when you, it gets exciting because you're like, oh, it's totally a different. Not only is it like Call of Duty, but it's all the different games. You're just switching out every time a few artists comes in. So it becomes so fun because you're not,

your brain immediately shifts and you're using it. And there aren't a lot of people who talk the business game of the music industry and the creative game in the music industry as well as you do. you and I are co-chairs of the Golden Platinum Club for NMPA where we can start to have conversations amongst writers who have achieved, you know, a certain level of success with the RAA. And so this way you can help educate certain writers that would help inform all writers, hopefully, because this is about raising up the next.

generation. Yeah. You are also, you know, a publisher where you're bringing in hot new talent. Are you optimistic about the future of the music business or are you pessimistic about the future of the music business? I am optimistic about the future of the music business for one reason. We live now in the age of transparency and access to any and all information. So the black box of money of information of detail surrounding deals between labels and publishers and writers, artists, DSPs, streamers, all that is now all being brought to the front. You can't hide it. It's why right now this year, for the first time ever, 43% of all consumption is independent from independent artists. when I started it was 10% roughly in the music industry. It was about 9, 10% of the pie.

Now it's 43% of the pie. It's still really hard to make it as an independent artist. Very few. They have that initial hit and then they can't follow it. Global radio does not jump on the bandwagon of an independent streaming record the way they do if you're assigned to majors. Yada yada yada. I can go down a rabbit trail on all these topics. But I'm optimistic about it because I have all the information at hand.

now and I'm armed with it. And it's a battle. And I know that there's still dislocation between what majors make off of masters and what songwriters make. I can talk about that for infinity. I know you have your quick answers that you feel like would be a quick fix. Why can't, you know, universal and all the majors, they own the major publishing companies. Why can't you just shift and reallocate some of the payout to the publishing side, which would help songwriters, uh, instead of just keeping it all on the master side, right? You'd think, oh, just move it over to that canopy and then you're still making money.

That's because on the master side, the label split is 75, 25. They pay out 25 of a dollar, they keep 75, right? On the publishing side, they keep 25, they pay out 75. So it's inverted. So there aren't any quick fixes, but as Spotify, and I don't know it's easy to throw darts at Spotify and I might get roasted for this.

I don't see them as the devil. when you're in they were they started in 2006 they lost money for 18 years they were a non-profitable business that at any point if anything had gone wrong could have just imploded and lost all the investors money right ec Daniel the whole team took massive risks so any company that takes 18 years and holds on till the point where they become profitable i've invested in 60 some odd businesses early stage mid-stage venture capital you name it so i understand that what it takes to scale and to truly have a successful business, 90-some-odd percent flame out, they're running a business. They happen to love music, even despite what people say they actually

do. And do I think that there's a future that call me crazy? I hope they make way more money. They're profitable now. Make so much money that literally at a certain point, they're also Swedish. You know, it's like socialism. A certain point you go, you know what, we can afford to pay more now. were actually profitable. You think that'll happen? Do you think that they will choose to do that? No, no, no, no. You didn't hear me, Craig.

There is zero opportunity for that to happen when you're losing money. I think that what's going to happen is this. Look, inflation is real now, but go back in the history of recorded music, right? If payouts had kept up with inflation, one thing that would be interesting to look at is this. Master, income for owning masters,

the cost of music per song per album. Look at a chart on how much labels have made over the last 50 years compared to inflation. How much has music earnings kept up with inflation? I know it hasn't kept up. But to what degree has master's side kept up with inflation, label side? Now look at the chart where songwriters, how much have we kept up with inflation? Look at the delta be- We can't.

I know we can't. I know that's not what I'm aiming for. look at the delta, find out what that dislocation is. That's an interesting number. I actually thought about this on the drive up here today to figure out how much more has labels kept up with inflation versus songwriters. I mean, if you try math. No, no. I know it's, I know it's highly dislocated. If you're a publicly traded company, you have no incentive. You can't. No, no CEO can go and say, songwriters deserve to get paid more. So arbitrarily, I'm going to do it against the will of the stockholder.

They will be fired tomorrow. Correct. Lucian, all of them will be fired tomorrow. Yes. Right? So you want to point anytime, I always say the laser, you want to point your laser at the labels, talk through it real quick and do the math, right? You shift it to the publishing companies that they own.

Well, that sounds good on paper except it's inverted math. But I don't, this money isn't going to, look, if the numbers are correct that essentially 20 years ago, labels were responsible for 90% of how songwriters were getting paid. Because CDs, anything that was manufactured. Now it's 5%. And now it's like 4 or 5% from labels. That the conversation is irrelevant whether there's a parent company. Correct.

If until songwriters are able to negotiate on their own behalf. Correct. Then that number won't change. And if I'm Lucian or I'm Lembovatnik or I'm some owner of a conglomerate like that, I would think that you would, nothing would probably change on their master's side. And the only, they should all be backing on the publishing side. Correct. The idea of making songwriters a fair market business.

So that way that there's tons of rain for the publishing industry. if granted this would this would cause a lot of issues for DSPs Spotify included and it might cause problems for performance rights organizations like BMI and ask it but not to get in the weeds

but if songwriters were able to have this ability to negotiate their performance part of correct of you know streaming services yeah I can go in this off this off this podcast for our listeners. But there's an opportunity potentially to double what songwriters get now. And Spotify currently gets 30 some percent of the revenue that comes in as a company.

And songwriters get 15.28%. If those numbers were flipped, Spotify would have to figure out what to do with their employees. But that's, you know, as I'm not the CEO of the music industry. But if I were doing that, I'd also be looking out for my own stockholders. and be like, let's go for it. Well, I'd make it in summary to like wrap all that in a cellophane package. All of what I was talking about is a second ago from like attacking the label side,

looking at the math, okay, it doesn't work there. There's only 100% total of every dollar. A dollar is not a dollar 50, it's a dollar. So when you go to all the things of how songwriters get paid, and I said this the other day to you, when I lived in Nashville in the early 2000s, I knew a writer who had two Brittany cuts and one backstreet cut. Album cuts. Album cuts.

No singles. One album sold 20 million copies. The other sold 15. Now I realize not every album sells that many now anymore. I realize that. He had two album cuts or three album cuts. Made $5 million off of those three album cuts, right? That's now cut that number in half.

Cut the number in one fourth off album cuts. Can you imagine? Can you imagine? So when I, when I, if you, if you existed in 1936, trust me, trust me. That's, that's, you know, that's why Max is literally, I think he's buying a planet like tomorrow. But the, the reality is there was a very healthy middle class. That's all at the end of the day, when I'm finished writing and kind of go off, I'll probably will point my attention towards focusing on how to like foster that bring back that healthy middle class of songwriters that we need so desperately. What it does do, it's so hard to catch hits. now, the randomness of it all, right? You've got roughly 15%. Well, I jump around so much. There's the ADD king in. When you look at all the math where all the money is coming from, $1 a dollar is a dollar or not $1.50. You go, labels can't switch their payouts. We only get 5% from them anyway. And even if they shift, they're not going to do that. Spotify is making

what they get. You're correct. If ASCAP, if BMI had the reason I signed with GMR, is because Irving renegotiated all the deals, right? I won't get into all the splits there, but it pays more than anybody. That's why I left ASCAP. I love ASCAP, but that's why I left. Songwriters like award ceremonies. We like to be acknowledged.

Funny enough, the hardest part of leaving ASCAP, I liked going to those annual award ceremonies and hanging out and all, you get acknowledged for what you did that year. I honestly think those awards, those like, you know, $30 awards are keeping more people in those organizations than anything else.

and if they had the ability to get rid of the consent decree and renegotiate, it would change everything for songwriters. So you've got two places, two places of, you know, points of fracture, right, where you could break in and get songwriters paid more. Number one is the PROs renegotiate, get rid of this consent decree, or a new one pops up like JMR or bigger ones, right? Renegotiate everything you could double your pay overnight or at least go up 20 to 30% overnight across the board.

It's number one. Number two, when I made the thing about like Spotify being extremely profitable, that argument, that ability to renegotiate becomes,

I don't care what you're, you know, about the, necessarily the stockholder or what happens in the boardroom. It's a lot easier to negotiate with somebody, especially Swedish people,

who I know to be sensible, nice, kind people. It's a lot easier to negotiate with a company that's crushing it than it is with a company that's losing money or not crushing it. That's my argument, is that if they're absolutely spitting out cash

for the first time ever and it's going crazy, it's like, guys, let's be real here. This is the thing. They're teaming up. They want to renegotiate on behalf of the songwriter. That's going to affect our bottom line 5%.

We can, you know, it's coming. We can do this. If you're losing money and you're not a successful company, there's no conversation to be had. So that's kind of my take. on it. What do you think of when when should drum programmers get publishing and when should they not get publishing? That's a that's all right. So that's a great question, man. On on the topic of

of that, if you're in Nashville, you know, I came up, I started as a hundred percenter because, and I've told you, you know this story, but I, in Oklahoma, I was an only child. There was no other bands I was with. I was writing by myself and in Colorado. And Diane Warren was kind of the person that my dad had put me on to. I was like, wait, she wrote some of the biggest songs that I've, of the last five, ten years. You can be a songwriter? You mean that like, Millie Vanilli didn't write their own song? Like, you know, I was so shook by her hit songs and don't want to miss a thing, you know, Aerosmith from that, from Armageddon, that was my favorite song that year. Wait, she wrote that and then you look of course

in Diane's credits it just says written by Diane Warren written by Diane Warren there's no other co-writes so I didn't know had no idea other than bands Crosby stills Nash and Young yeah they write together they're a band I didn't always write together well but

that's a good example of like even internally Queen these guys had individuals would write the assumption though was that you two was one of my favorite bands and all four of them are listed okay so I'm using you two as a example. So I'm looking and I go, Diane Warren, and I look at Peter Gabriel, who I worshipped, and he wrote all stuff. So my only, I didn't have, like, I wasn't living on the internet. So

I was like, okay, I have to write 100% everything. So I get to L.A. That's how I started. You know, all my first songs were either just me or me and one other person on like all the first call it four or five years of hits. And then I became a collaborator later, like later in my career. Three people, four people. you know, the average number one, I think 15 years ago had three writers on it, something like that. Then it went to four. Then it went to five. Now I think it's six or seven. If you designed a horse by committee, it would be a camel. Like, you know what I mean? That's just facts. I think that the songwriting by committee thing, listen, I've been a part of writing camps for, major artists that I won't name, where no matter what you do, it's just there's going to be seven, eight people on that song, no matter what you do. And it may not, by the way, it may not

be equal splits. You may have two people that have 25 percent and then the other guys have less. You know, you look at you. You go into it with the creation in mind that everyone's going to walk away with 12.5 percent potentially. But what I will say is this to like up and coming songwriters, you can stop that. And what I can tell you is that a I realize that we're all like I think J Cash said one time songwriters are like seagulls sitting on the side of like a dock and then a kid drops a french fry from his fry basket and then you see 45 seagulls all fly down to get the one fry he's like that's us and I was like that's that's pretty accurate I goes in Santa Monica recently on the pier and I

watched it happen and I was like cash it's pretty accurate and so on that end I get it but I think, and I don't mean this to sound mean, get better. Yeah. Get better. You have the internet. You have unlimited access to the internet. Even the idea of like what top line is versus a beat maker.

Like that wasn't a thing. You were a songwriter. You should be able to do all of it. Like if I'm in a session and there's no one there to produce, I'll produce. And if I'm the, you know, and if there's an amazing. you know, melody writer than maybe I'm the guy who does more lyrics or vice,

like whatever the version is, like you don't, you should be malleable. And the more you think, especially now if you're a drum guy as your main instrument. You better be the best in the world. You better be the best in the world.

Otherwise, splices and AI is going to take that in two seconds. What's happening with most major artists now that are, let's say, under a certain age is they come up with a crew. That rarely happened when we started. They came up with a crew, one of the guys is maybe helping is more top line. One guy is more beats. Now, I worked with some phenomenal, I'm just old enough to be cynical. So I've been, I've gone into sessions where I've

been cynical about the people in the room and then I've been blown away. I've also walked into a session recently where there were three guys that came with the artist when I was told it was just the artist and one guy. Two other people showed up. I'm texting the manager going, who are these other two people? What do they do? I don't even know their names. And I realized 30 minutes into the session, one of those guys was just there to be a vibe. And I promptly uninvited him. And I was like, I'll be the asshole. I don't care. We don't need, I don't need him this person in the room. Take eating off your table and my table and then one of my songwriters who I publish. It's not, this, this is music business. We happen to work with friends. We like to

work with friends, but it's music business. And if you... The point to writers that's really important is, protect your copyrights at all cost. That is your entire business. If you don't protect your copyrights at all costs, someone is coming for your copyrights. There's like this other thing.

100%. If you, you know, if you don't prioritize your time, someone else will. Correct. And that's a good example of the same thing. It's like, if you don't prioritize your, copyright someone else will. Yeah.

Period. It became, we've had like it's, what is it called? Not a pandemic and endemic. I don't know what it's called. But, but this songwriting by committee thing, find the two people that make you better the most and dig in. And if one of them is a beatmaker, because this, by the way, this is not us shading beatmakers because like, let's like Dr. Dre, hello.

Like, you know, come on. Like, Jay Dillet. But these guys also came in with the beat. Correct, correct, correct. Correct. That's a different scenario or they're writing it in the room with the, like those are different. What I'm saying more, I'm saying this, I'm saying this to everyone. When I say get better, what I mean is this.

If you genuinely do not have the top line bone in your body, lyric and melody is not happening for you. That's fine. Become better at production outside of just doing drums. Become, become, become, become the only way you can sustain a create here, become like, irreplaceable, right? Absolutely irreplaceable. If you were a topliner, learn guitar, learn piano. If you're just lyric and melody and you hang out, learn guitar, learn piano. That added value, you get thrown out of the room in Nashville.

If you just walk in, you're like, yeah, I just do lyrics. You better be Bernie motherfucking topping if you just do lyrics. It's like, oh, Bernie, you're Bernie topping, you can hang. Like, otherwise get out of the room. Like, go learn guitar. I did with, uh, with pink where I was with Julia Michaels. And, you, you're like, I'm going to just pick up the guitar. And it's a song called Barbies. And like my biggest contribution to that song is the fact that the entire guitar part is the entire song. Like I play, like, it was just one of those things in the moment where I usually can hold my own.

Yeah. I can. But when you're in that room, it was like, that's my job in that room that day is slightly different. You understand it. If you can be, when I spent the two years, spent with Timberland, I realized quickly, and the reason I started a band is in that same time I was with Timberlake hanging out,

and John Mayer was blowing up. He'd already blown up. And I realized, and Tim and I talked about it. I was like, I think I might start a band. And he's like, I signed you as a solo artist. Why are you thinking a band? And I said, okay, I'm never, I will not be more famous than Timberlake ever.

I cannot out dance him. And I'm not going to out pop him. I cannot outplay guitar. I cannot outplay John Mayer. And this is also coupled with like Howie Day and Ryan Cabrera and all these other guitar white guys with guitar land. It was just everywhere. And I was like, I'm starting a band.

I had to find my niche. And with all writers and artists, you know, if you're an artist, find the thing, find that I've said this before, find the one or two things that you can do better than anybody and lean into that. For Tate, it was dancing and honestly work ethic. You know, for Ed Sharon, it's the good fact that the guitar is so indelible with him. He plays it everywhere.

And it's always with him. You can picture it. But not only that, he writes three to five songs a day. His work ethic isn't. There's a theme here. Work ethic, right? If you're a Keys guy or a vibe guy, and that's just what you do, learn drums. Learn to drum program.

Learn to do other things. Become really, really good at it. Be additive. Add all those things in. because for me, when I realized I was never going to out-drum, out-produced Timbaland, right? Very sobering experience. I'm the only white guy in a room for two years. That was amazing. But like, I'm hanging out. I'm like going, this guy, I'm watching him make Cry Me a River. In the room. And I'm just going, my eyes are crossing and I'm like, oh, man, I suck.

I need to get so much better. And I'm never going to be, I'm not going to create a sound that signature ever. And I was in the era of producers creating signature sounds. And what occurred to me was, I'll never be that good to create a sound that I think shifts the universe on its access. But what if I became a Swiss Army knife? What if I could kind of mold into any writing room ever and just do whatever fills the gaps, like to your point about the guitar thing? So like getting just good enough in guitar, piano, bass, drum programming, lyric melody. So yesterday I'm in a session with Tizo and a handful of other people and he's asking me, you know, I have Picard asking me, like, what do you want to do today? Do you want to steer? Which steering means you're the one

producing and doing the track for those of you don't know. And, or, you know, what do you want to do? And I said, I want to let you be you. And like, you just like, in your. And, you just like, in your your zone crushing as Picard, great French producer. And I said, I will chime in on this and be sending you sounds. I will be doing top line with Tizo. I will probably do the hook. Um, and let Tizo body the verses. Diplo and I are going to go back and forth on sound selection. And that was my role yesterday. It was just like pivoting from one to the other, you know, coming up with samples that we used to a flip, you know, yada, yada, yada. And I remember thinking yesterday, knowing I was doing the podcast today, I was like, yesterday was like the one of the more like perfect embodiments of what

I set out to do 20 years ago. Because like if I was just the producer like guy who didn't do lyric and top line, well, you've got Picard of the Picard brothers. You got Diplo in the room. Like there's three of us doing the same thing. Tizo, who is phenomenal and what a great guy. and great with rap and melody and a bunch of stuff, but like needs a big hook, right? And Wes Diplo's not going to do that. Picard's not going to do that. So to the degree that you can try to be

the most Swiss Army knife as possible, you will have a job the rest of your life in music if you so want. If you can execute that, which you have, which is why you just showed me like the most baller studio rooms ever that you did not pay for with streaming. Oh. Okay, so here's the deal. I've got like a thousand things that I want to ask you.

I'll do quick. Let's do rapid fire. Let's do rapid fire. Well, rapid fire. Okay, I got three minutes. Okay. Three minutes. And then I have a call that started two minutes ago. Okay, great. So we're going to do three minutes right now. Let's keep going. NDAs. NDAs. I'm just going to draw out something. Tell me. My take. Here you go. Yeah. song songwriters that for artists and songwriters who have forced the room to sign NDAs

Not a fan No Radio in 2006 From a songwriter standpoint As important as it's ever been And in certain cases actually can influence

streaming and can actually turn the dials up and cars are bought with streaming, houses are bought with radio. What are your thoughts on artists re-recording their classic albums? I absolutely love it. Sorry. Will One Republic re-record any of their albums? 100%. We, all of our rights to our albums, it was a little tiny, small line in our contract. We're out of our Interscope deal. We're now with a licensing deal with BMG.

we get the ability to re-release everything starting in about 18 months, one album at a time. So trust me, I've already started. Is your feature on glacier hiking the best moment of your career? Second only to me singing with a fake country accent on Bubba Sparks, she tried. Yes. I love you. I love that we are going through this career together. It's good to have friends that you're just like.

like, man, this is crazy. We sell air for a living and we're still here. Man, we're still doing it. We're still doing it, man. Yeah, thanks for having me. I love the new setup. This is, this is a vibe. Hopefully we answer. I could go on for three hours. Well, I was going to say there's a plausible scenario that there's a part two to this conversation. Let's do it. Let's do it. Before this season comes down. You live, you live close to me and I feel like we probably touched on half the stuff. Perfect. That's ADD.