And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 218: Conan Gray | From Bedroom to Global Sensation

Episode Date: August 25, 2025

Today’s guest began on YouTube — a teenager posting bedroom covers to a handful of viewers.Now, his songs have been streamed billions of times across the globe.He’s headlined sold-out arenas on multiple continents, become a global fashion force, and built one of the most devoted fanbases of his generation.He’s collaborated with legends like Max Martin, while never losing the raw honesty that made his music essential in the first place.He’s not just a rising star — he’s already one of pop’s defining voices.And with his new album, he proves that even at the biggest scale, vulnerability is still his superpower.And the writer is… Conan Gray!Follow us on socials!  @andthewriteris  Thank you to NMPA for sponsoring this season, and fighting for songwriters as well as this podcast.00:00 – This Is Conan Gray (teaser)01:00 – Singing Disney With Ross 🎶02:00 – From Bedroom Dreams to Billions02:59 – Growing Up Lonely, Writing to Survive04:45 – The Music Video That Rewired His Brain06:30 – When Adele Proved Bedroom Songs Were Possible07:30 – Uploading at Age 9 (Before He Knew the Internet)14:15 – “Nothing Sounded Like Me”15:45 – Panic Attacks → Falling in Love With Touring21:15 – Dropping Out & Betting Everything on Music23:20 – The Moment His Sister Realized He Was Famous24:30 – Turning Heartbreak Into Healing on Stage26:00 – The Nightmare of Empty Venues28:30 – Dan Nigro: The Producer Who Changed Everything30:15 – Why Conan Refuses to Believe He’s ‘Made It’33:22 – Ad Break – Support Songwriters (NMPA)34:00 – ‘Maniac’: The Shower Song That Hit a Billion 🚿35:45 – Heather: The Song Everyone Slept On… Until They Didn’t40:32 – Found Heaven: His Public Bootcamp43:23 – Max Martin’s Biggest Lesson (That Changed His Writing)47:00 – Rediscovering Himself on Wishbone50:05 – The Falsetto High Note That Almost Broke Him52:07 – Cornell: The Song Too Honest to Ignore53:00 – Why Radical Honesty Is His Only Rule55:00 – Why His Art Isn’t Just Music56:00 – The Three Songs That Define His New Era01:03:15 – What He’d Tell 12-Year-Old Conan01:07:00 – Ross: “You Wrote a Song I Wish Was Mine”Hosted by Ross GolanExecutive Produced by Joe London and Jad Saad Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I started putting videos of myself on the internet, starting age nine. Hello, my name is Conan. Full did everything in their power to make me feel embarrassed that I really cared about this thing. Like half the battle is just letting yourself admit that you actually really fucking care about something. Why does somebody choose to bear their soul on a recording that's going out to millions of people? I knew that I just had to be as honest as possible, or else I was going to be doing a disservice to the people who were going to give me their time to listen to the album.

It's never like a lyric that I don't think twice about it. What do you say to 15-year-old view, knowing what you know now? I thought I knew exactly what I wanted. I thought I knew exactly who I was. You don't know yourself in the way you think you know yourself. This season is presented by NMPA, the National Music Publishers Association. Wouldn't you think my collection's complete? Wouldn't you think I'm a girl?

A girl who has everything. I got gasmids and gizmos are plenty. Almost. Gazzett. I got gadgets and gistmos a plenty. I've got who's and wants it's galore. You want thing about boffs? I got 20.

20? 20? Plenty. But who cares? No big deal. I want more Welcome to Anne the writer is I am your host Ross Golan

Today's guest has built a global audience From a bedroom with a laptop And a soul full of heartbreak Yeah This digital era storyteller writes From a diaristic yet cinematic POV His artistry pulls from Freddie Mercury

David Bowie George Michael But never should be categorized As pastiche because his take is relevant And boundary pushing. He's a Gen Z icon, a fashion muse, and a pop poet whose music has soundtracked some of the most intimate moments of a generation's coming of age. And the writer is Conan Gray. Yay.

Thank you for that entrance. It's only because we just sang Little Mermaid, and I felt like you deserved a little extra pizzazz. Thank you. Yeah. That was my payment. Uh-huh. I can imagine your agent wanting 10% of that moment.

Yeah, we'll discuss after. Yeah, fair. Your life has been very well documented publicly. But I think from the perspective of you as a songwriter, I just want to hear this story, starting with, you know, you were born. Okay, the story of me songwriting from the day I was born. Sure. Okay.

Well, I was born. military kid moved around a shit ton. I had a curse. Yeah, you can curse. Moved around a shit ton. I was super lonely, obviously, because I was never in one place for like more than a year. And I started writing songs when I was 10 or 11. And I just became obsessed and I've been doing it nonstop ever since.

Well, let's go from your parents. while you're traveling around and you're lonely, like I can imagine, you know, you're finding solace in all kinds of art and music. What kind of music did your parents listen to? I don't come from a musical family at all. And my dad listened to a lot of Eminem.

Okay. So clearly you can hear the influence. Lose yourself. And then my mom was just like very, very, very much like a single mom in the 2000s, and it was like a lot of like the chicks and John Mayer and that music that was playing on like soft rock radio, that was my childhood musically.

But then once I discovered the internet, which was like around nine, eight or nine, I started to form my own opinions. And my sister, I like will live, legitimately never forget this moment in my life. My sister had gotten a personal computer and she was the only one who had one. And I walked into her room one day and she was playing a music video. And I'd never even really seen like a full music video before. Not really. Because I was also past like MTV. I didn't have that. And I was like, who is that girl? And it was Taylor Swift singing the music video

of our song and my brain rewired in front of her and then from there I just was obsessed with music videos and obsessed with finding my own music. I mean like Lord and all these people afterwards

like completely changed my life and then yeah. Listening to that kind of music on your own and your dad's listening to Eminem how did that work? I mean I guess it was just a bit interesting.

I mean, I also, I grew up in Texas mostly. So, like, I was pretty used to, like, hearing music around me that wasn't necessarily indicative of what I was listening to. But I also don't really care. And I listen to, like, so much different kind of music. So it doesn't really matter much to me. So when do you think for the first time, I kind of want to create my own,

you know, my own music. It was, it was Adele. That was when I discovered that people can write songs. I didn't know that you could write a song in your bedroom. I very much, like,

thought in my mind as like an eight or nine year old that music is made in a studio with like a bunch, in my mind, it's just like a bunch of men. And they just like made a song and then like you sing it. Like that's kind of what I thought was music. That's all what I saw as like,

in popular media is like the portrayal of what making music is. And then I saw this video of Adele singing her song, Daydreamer. You know that song? In the comments, it said, oh, like, this is the song that got Adele signed. Like, this is the song that, like, got her discovered. And she wrote it in her bedroom. And I was like, I have a bedroom. Like, I can do that.

I can just, like, write a song. And then I just started doing it. But to be honest, I was always writing, like, little jingles and stuff. Like I was always like, like singing like the, like, putting music to like signs that I would see or like ads that I'd see on the side of the road. I'd like turn them into jingles. I was always like writing stuff. I just loved it. What's the first?

Well, my sister has a video on her flip phone from when I was like maybe seven and I was singing a song like legitimately about poop and pee. Do you know how it goes? I don't remember how it goes But I very distinctly remember what the video looked like I was on a skateboard In our living room on the carpet Doing like wheelies and singing about poop and pee Which yeah that's the

The beginning of an amazing career But what's the want? What do you want out of this song? When you start How amazing is it That there is a The idea that you envision that you need to be in a recording studio.

And now that most people's bedrooms can be a recording studio, you can just pick up your phone that's a recording studio, that everyone has a recording studio. There's not a lot of excuses why you can't create. Why is that so hard for someone in Texas to learn? Why is it so hard for someone to see that there are, opportunities to do music outside of, you know, or even just create music? I mean, I don't know if it is anymore. I think a lot of young people are like a really,

really far ahead of where I was when I first started making music. I mean, I think it was probably around when I turned 13, 14 when I started to discover like garage band. And then from there, I was like, you know, recording in my bedroom all the time, making songs and seeing what I can put together with like my very limited knowledge of how to use these tools. But like I have close friends who have like little brothers and little sisters who are like, you know, 13, 14, who are so far advanced from what I was doing at that age. So I think nowadays there is a general consensus of like music is very accessible, which I think is the coolest thing ever because now music is very much, I feel like there's so many options and the things that rise to the top are so interesting and so, so random, truly.

Yeah, it almost helps if it's random. The hard part is if your expectations are like a certain kind of successful. or consumption makes like the creator happy, but the opportunity to be weird now musically is, you know, it's off the charts. Yeah. When you started making music at 1314, what was the first time you started playing music for people? Oh. Well, I was really oblivious to what the internet even was when I was a kid.

So I would, I started putting videos of myself that I would record in my room on the internet, starting age nine. Why I was allowed to do that. I have no idea. That's not okay, like at all. But not to upload music at nine is definitely, it feels like it's ahead of the curve. Well, that's the thing too. Like, I wasn't even just uploading music. I was just uploading random videos of like my bedroom and like my toys.

like my pets and like random and I and I look back and I'm like why is this here forever that's mortifying but I do think again I was very lonely I found solace and like the idea of a person online that I could speak to I didn't understand why were you lonely I was just I just honestly just because I moved around so much um especially when you're young you don't have control over the people that you're around as much. So, yeah, I just moved so much. By the time I got to the sixth grade, I'd already moved like 14 or 15 times. Whoa. So I just couldn't keep track of my friends. But once I got to the sixth grade, I started to make friends in Texas in this town that I was living in, that I lived in for the longest chunk. And then I wasn't so lonely, but I'd already gotten accustomed to like

making friends online. So all of that is there and alive on the internet. But I don't really think, I don't think that's unique either. I think like basically if I were to ask any of my friends, they have a very similar story. But the 14 locations that you lived previous, how much of that influenced your musicality? Did any of the locations give you sort of a cultural? you know, a tidbit that you could take with you? I don't, I mean, I'm sure.

I'm sure, yeah, but maybe not in ways that I'm aware of. I would say the most of me is a Texan. And I think that when I meet people, they usually don't really understand my vibe until they get that I'm a Texan. And they're like, oh, okay. Because I think, you know, there's a lot of kind of like ideas in people's minds of what a Texan is.

Well, you were closer when you said that your mom listened to the chicks and stuff like that. I think that the expectations are that you would be listening to music and doing music that comes out of traditionally out of Texas. For sure. But I do love country music. Did you ever feel like that would be the kind of music you'd create? No, no, no. You just knew that way. You knew that you could love it without having to create that.

Yeah, well, I think country music. is kind of like one of the biggest pieces of like storytelling when it comes to pop music as well. Like we got so much of that from folk in country music. Your lyrics are so specific. And I think that, you know, it's helpful if you listen to genres that it's not, your lyrics are like atypical for pop music, you know, which is makes a lot of sense. if you're digesting music from outside of pop music. Were you listening to, you know, listen,

none of the people you've mentioned, yet that you listen to, Adele or Taylor or, you know, what your mom listened to, what your dad listened to, still none of it sounds like Conan Gray. How do we get to you discovering your sound? I think that that's like such an impossible question to answer. And it's kind of like the big question on everyone's mind. Anyone who makes anything is like, how do you become yourself?

Like, I have no idea at all. And I think with this latest album with Bushbone, I very much was like, okay, I've tried so many hats on. I've been so many different people. I've worn different clothes, I've saying different ways, I've written in different ways, I've been all around the world, I've seen so many things. Now I'm going to do my very best to remember who I was when I was 14, when I first started to understand even what I was or who I am and just lean as hard as possible into who I naturally am and see if that can make something that's unique to me. And also I gave myself no rules. If something has no, no reason for feeling like me, but it feels like me, I can use it. I can include it.

Even if there's no, like, if for whatever reason, like vacuum cleaners feel like the most me thing on earth and I have no reason for why, I can still use it. Like, just got to go with whatever feels the most intensely me as possible. When I think of people recording music in bedrooms, it's often really reserved. That's the least way I would describe how you sing. Where did you learn the confidence to sing the way you do? That came from touring, for sure. I remember when I first signed my deal, I remember saying to Avery and Monty Whitman, my CEOs of Republic, I told them like, I'm so excited to make music for you guys, but just so you know,

like, I'm never going to tour. Like, it's not something I want to do, just want to, like, make songs. And they were like, sure. You know, they were like, okay. Because that's how I felt when I, you know, when I was a teenager, I didn't really know what I wanted yet. And the thought of standing in front of people and singing was like actually the worst thing. You know, when I was, like, worst thing you could ever do to me in my mind because that's not who I am at all, like, at all. When I first went on my very first tour, I was, yeah, I was 19. And like before every show, it was like actually felt like the world was ending.

Like I would vomit before the shows. I'd be so nervous. I wouldn't be able to eat. I would like literally go on tour and lose like whatever weight I had because I literally could not eat. I was so nervous. It was so, it was like torture to like go and be seen by like actual human beings in front of me. And it was like the most unbelievable conditioning ever because I was so scared of this thing, but I had no choice. I had to go do it because people were depending on me to go up and do it. And I'm also such a people pleaser. I was like, I can't let these

people down. I have to be good. I have to be a good person. Um, so I had to just do it over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and I played hundreds and hundreds of shows and something just clicked all of a sudden and I was like, this is incredible. I love doing this so much. And if I had been the same person it was when I was a teenager, I would have had no idea about this unbelievable joy that I get from having, other people stand in front of me and tell me that I'm not alone and the way that I feel when I'm writing these songs. So it was like the most humbling experience ever because I was such a self-assured person when I was that age.

I thought I knew exactly what I wanted. I thought I knew exactly who I was. I'm just not the kind of person who tours is just not me. And then I got humbled so hard and was like, no, actually, this is like the coolest thing ever and the fact that people pushed you and the fact that people wanted to see you go to shows is like you don't know yourself in the way you think you know yourself. If you were to sit down with 19 year old you and you're back in, you know, or even younger and you're, let's say 15 year old you who's in a room just starting out, what do you say to

15 year old you knowing what you know now about touring? I would say the people are there to have fun. Like the people are there because they want to see you sometimes. Sometimes you play festivals and you're like, these people wouldn't care if I died in front of them. But at my own shows, people want me to be there. And I think, yeah, I would just say like, push yourself and try things that you're afraid of.

like it's truly the only way to grow as a human being. This is your story, not mine. But when I was first starting out, I had this, our booking agent booked us on a festival that was, had a, like an alternative rock emo stage. But the other six stages were like heavy rock. And it was like, I just remember standing on that stage.

no one there wanted to see anyone on this stage. It was just this moment of, I wonder if we need to cut this short. Yeah. Because it's not only that they would be fine with me, like, dying on stage, but, like, they might partake in this process. Like, no song about how hard my heart is broken is going to work. They do not care. They do not care.

They're on the side of the devil. And they were proud of that. That's at least what their shirts would say. You know, let's go back to, you know, you started talking about Moni and Avery, you know, and signing to Republic. You know, you start releasing stuff on YouTube and, you know, and elsewhere, and it becomes a thing. Most of that stuff was stuff that wasn't really, it's not like you were collaborating yet. So when a record, when record labels are like, hey, we want to sign you, kid.

of Texas. One, your family that had moved around everywhere, what did they think of that? And two, what did you think of that? The wonderful thing about being young is you are quite fearless because you don't know how bad things could go. At least I didn't yet. I looked back and I was like, why was I so sure that things were going to work out that I, like, dropped out of college.

Like, what? If this was me right now, I'd be like, I think I'm going to finish my degree, and then, like, I'll come back to you a few years. Like, you know, my parents, I mean, yeah, I grew up in a small town in Texas. They were much like, yeah, right, like, sure. I mean, I think it was ridiculous.

I mean, everything was ridiculous, right? It was so silly. I'm still. I think about being able to make music for people, and it's, like, hilarious to me. So I think they probably felt the same way. And I think still do it. My sister is very much, like, oh, sure, Conan, like, great job. Do they recognize how big your career is gone?

I mean, like, my sister. I love my sister. She's, like, my only biological sister, and we're close. she came to my show at the forum and I was like I finished this show. I was like Alyssa like what did you think and she looked at me

she said it was so big that's what she said and like I'm like yeah I guess that sums it up like yeah it was big it's cool. It's hard to explain you know

to family how big these things are and until you can experience you know, for songwriters who aren't performers, you know, when they're in an audience and they see a song for the first time that they co-wrote or something and they see it, they experience it even that one show. And it's life-changing to see thousands, tens of thousands of people singing along to something. Do you still, when you're on stage, does it feel new every time? Or is there a habitual part of performing the same songs and seeing the response? I think Well I think it's interesting because I have toured long enough to see that like sometimes songs take new life Completely out of your control

And that sometimes like there are certain parts of songs That for whatever reason like is the part that like you know people are going to sing along the hardest too So I find it really Fun and very kind of like healing I always like say this all the the time, but I feel like it's kind of like the best job ever if you have things you have to work through because, you know, you get your heartbroken, you write a song about it, you're depressed about it for a year, you record it, it's mixed, it's mastered, it's pressed into a vinyl, and then another year later, you're singing it in front of people, the same exact words

that made you feel horrible about life, the same exact experiences, and people, you're are literally just like grinning, ear to ear, like smiling, laughing, like waving their arms at you. And like, yay! Like, here's the things that happened to you. But, but like, I'm having fun. And it's like a, it's like a hilariously, um, cathartic experience. Because all of a sudden you realize that one, you're not alone. Two, um, these experiences, you've healed past them and you're going to gain new experiences around these same exact words. Yeah. Do you realize how big your career is going to? badden? Like no and yes

I think Do you ever walk off stage and say what your sister said? Wow, that was big. Like every night. Yeah. Every night. And I'm all like truly before every single show.

I'm like, I wonder if people will come. Like truly. Yeah. Like I just. Do you ever have nightmares where you wake up Or you'd like stand on stage and no one showed up? 100%.

100%. And that's the thing, too. Like, they're not even irrational. Like, sometimes you do, like, go to a festival or something and you're like, all right. I mean, I remember I had to play this festival once that was like an industry festival. That was like just for like people who were like working in the music industry. It's so weird. It was in Brighton.

And I finished a song probably did a horrible job because I was so nervous. And the song ended and one person coughed and that was all that happened. They were like, and I was like, I have to quit music now. Like literally. I was like, great. But yeah, I mean, I have nightmares that I had a nightmare the other day that I went on stage and I realized that I was at a different person's show and that I didn't know the words to the songs that I was supposed to sing

because like it was for a different artist. that's really funny. Yeah. It was Justin Bieber, by the way. Also, it didn't happen. Just, you know, it was just a nightmare. Yeah. So I'm like, I woke up and I was like, okay.

Okay. So you get a bunch of these labels. They hit you up and you end up in the office with Moni and Avery. You know, it's one of the biggest record labels in the world. Do you feel like you have to adjust who you are musically to acclimate to this new world? No, like, no. They were very much just like, I think, knew that I was young and was going to figure things out. I think I've put a ton of pressure on myself to be, whatever I was doing, I just wanted to make sure I was doing it really well. And it's so hard because you

have no blueprint that goes to everyone in life. Like, you don't really know what's going to happen ever. So I was just trying things out. I think what's interesting when I look back at every song that I released and every album that I made, it's like fun to see that there was like, oh, like, I remember at this time, it's really clear that I like was like inordinate, inordinately depressed or like in this time I can tell I was like a little like manic. Like I was like a little like really excited about life. And like other times where I'm like, oh, like that song's like about someone that like I literally couldn't care less about anymore. It's really interesting.

Like it's fun to see kind of the milestones of like all these different versions of myself that I tried on to see who was the best version. When in reality, I think the best version was always going to be who I just naturally am. And that's what I think this album is, which is just like, I couldn't care less anymore. And I'm just going to make music that I really, that I really like. Is our guests and friend Dan Nigero did, what is it about Dan that helped bring that out initially and that made you go back? Dan was the very first producer that I ever met. I'd never even been into a studio before, Dan.

I was going to school at UCLA and I would drive all the way from UCLA over to the east side and I met with him. I played him some songs. I, like, walked into his garage studio. That's very much still the same garage studio. And what I liked about him was he was so open to hearing what I have to say. He was so willing to try and fail. And his big thing with me was I think he could see that I was really, really scared.

So his kind of MO with me for that whole era of my life was like, hey, it's okay if we fuck up, if we make mistakes. It's okay, if you make mistakes, okay, if I do, like, let's just make music and try. And I worked with so many other people and I learned so much from so many different like places that I've made music and people I've made music with. But Dan was always, yeah, at the end of the day, like my music dad, like anything I would make would get shown to. Dan because I was like, Dan, what do you think? You know? Yeah. There's, you know, there's a kind of success that you had touched on as, you know, streaming

wise. Like, obviously people were streaming your music. You had posted a bunch of things. But there's a different level that starts to come out when Kid Crow comes out. You know, like that, that seems to be like this, like, you arrived on like just a whole other global scale. At what point did you feel like you had made it? I don't feel like I've made it,

and I don't think I'll ever really feel like that. I think, obviously I could tell that things were changing around Kid Crow, but it's something that I intentionally go out of my way to not think about. Because I think as someone who needs to write songs about being a human being who can relate to human beings, I just really can't over-analyze it.

I shouldn't intellectualize it and make it such a large thing. Where does the humility come from? Aren't you supposed to be a rock star who doesn't care about other people? I think maybe ignoring it is what I have to do. to not care what people think. Yeah. Of course I care what people think.

And of course I can. It's almost more like a human. Yeah. Do you get, you know, being so visible, you get comments like crazy on everything you do. Do you internalize? Do you still care what people think on a minute level that you get emotionally affected by the way people comment publicly?

100%. 100%. And I think that's why I have to know. not look because I think it's so important that I remain sensitive so that I can write songs that are hopefully good. Yeah, honest. Yeah. When, you know, Kit Crow has this, most of it leads up right into COVID.

Yeah. It's impossible to not see like the sort of, a lot of artists hit a wall when COVID started. because the world stopped. And instead, your fans really went and doubled down on everything. Yeah. What is it about the time that you started to release K. Crow from the middle of COVID when you finish releasing stuff? Yeah. What is it about the world that helped you?

If I were to think, if I were to try to put my finger, on it now, I would say I wrote it yeah, very, very isolated, very alone, very sad, super angsty, so confused, so miserable.

And then we went into COVID where I think a lot of people felt quite similarly. Yeah. You know, our listeners love hearing these stories, so we got to go through some of it. NMPA is the premier organization for music publishers,

and their songwriter partners. It's their mission to increase the value of music, and that's exactly what they do. NNPA is working right now to raise royalty rates for songwriters from streaming services, radio, social media, and everywhere, music is essential. From the courts to Congress, NNPA works to get songwriters what they deserve.

I know because I've served on the board before, and I'm the current co-chair, along with Ryan Tetter and Liz Rose for the Golden Platinum Club. So again, thank you NMPA for supporting and The Writer is and songwriters everywhere. Tell me about writing Maniac. Maniac I wrote in the shower. I was in New York. There was this person that I had such a crush on.

And that was in high school. Then I go to college and I move away from my home school. town. And, you know, afterwards I would hear kind of inklings through like the, through my friend group like, oh, like, blah, blah, blah, blah was talking about you. Like, oh, blah, blah, blah, like said this about you, said this about you. And, yeah, I just thought it was hilarious. And yeah, I ended up writing that in the shower. I was in New York. I was in a shower that was exceptionally echoy. And the shower head was like the strongest, the strongest jet. ever felt.

And I just started singing, tell all of your friends that I'm crazy and drive you mad. And then I recorded it into my phone. And you can hear kind of in the first memos, like the shower running in the back. And the melody was just so simple and catchy that it just kind of stuck with me for a pretty long time afterwards and then I finished it.

Heather is so big. I mean, it's streamed like a billion, two billion times. It's just an insane number. It's the sixth single released on the album. Like most labels are like, yeah, we gave a few songs a shot, you know. What is it about Heather that is so special? Oh, I just love that song.

And the thing about that one was it was always my favorite. from the second I wrote it and I felt so justified, I felt like so, so just like snarky when it started doing well, because I was like, I told you guys, I was like, I told you it's good. Because I remember I wrote it and my, and I played it for like, you know, like my A&R and my label and they were like, yeah, it's a nice,

it's a nice song like you wanna put on the album, like sure. And I was like, no, guys, I think it's really good. Like, I think, and me and Dan made it. And Dan and I were like, yeah, like, this is a good one. But at that point, also, like, the singles kind of, because it was the last song that we wrote for the album, or one of the last.

So the singles are kind of already chosen. It didn't become a single until, I think, a year after the album came out, because it just took off by itself. And I love that. It was like chosen. for me. And like anytime I like question, like whether I like know what I'm making or not, because that

happens all the time, you know, I write a song and I'm like, God, I've never written a good song in my life. I think back to Heather. I'm like, you know, I liked that song. It was one of my favorite songs. I liked it. I would listen to it. And so now when I write music and when I was working on this album, it was a bit like, yeah,

is this a song that I'm still listening to like six months later? Am I still like craving listening to the demo for whatever reason? And if that's true, then that's what you should be following. Super 8 comes out pretty much right on the heels. Like you were obviously recording it during COVID. And, you know, you branch out a little bit with circuit but still with Dan. What were your expectations with that album having released Kid Crow before? None. I mean, I think at that point, I was just like, I can't believe I'm making another album.

Because also your debut album, like, you have your whole life to make your debut album. You have an entire lifetime of experiences to talk about on that first project. So then with Soup Break, it was a bit like, oh God, I said everything. Like, what do I say now? And the whole time I was making the album, I was like, what? I'm making an album. Like, I guess. I guess I'm making an album. And then like even when I finished the album, I was like, are we sure, guys? Like, really? Like, you're letting me make another album like right now? It just felt like so, I was like so surreal because it was also like all in

COVID. I had no idea what was going on. I had like had made this album that did, well, all just in COVID. So I had like no clue. I was completely, I was so confused when I was making super break. It's strange because obviously, you know, it's, it was impossible to judge when so much of your success can be visualized from touring where you're, are these people singing along to this? And then when you record and release something in a pandemic, it's just this weird vortex. And maybe you can see streaming. I mean, people watching still is like a lot of streams, you know. And it's like people were liking it. People were listening to the whole album, but they were listening to it alone. Yeah. You didn't get to experience how much they liked it until probably the next album,

until the next tour. Yeah. And we were like making it alone and people were like listening alone. And it was just this very like, yeah, super isolated, very, very lonely. It's weird that the biggest song in it is people watching when you aren't able to watch people. Yeah, like that's definitely not a coincidence at all, like 100%. Do you think, are those related? Is the pandemic the reason why people watching works? I don't know.

Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I think I wrote it because I felt really out of the loop of like people who who like fall in love and I don't know, can date and be like normal.

So yeah. The next album's really interesting because, you know, friends with a lot of these people, there's some of the best writers in the world. What is it about found heaven that works and doesn't work in comparison to the other albums that you've done? I think to me, I was just off the heels of touring Superache, and I was on tour for Superache for very long time. I did, I think, in the end of it all, something like 120 shows. And it was the first time I saw how much my life had changed from pre-COVID, basically.

It's the first time I ever saw that people liked music and knew the music and wanted to sing along. and it was actually in a huge way, like a huge... I had a huge identity crisis around it all. It was super confusing. I was like simultaneously very grateful, but then felt like immense amounts of pressure, obviously. And then I think with Found Heaven... I mean, the truth is it didn't come out very long ago,

so I don't know if I have enough distance from it to like intellectualize it in any way. way that's accurate. But when I think of it now, I think of it as like my experimental phase and also like a rejection of maybe what I was expecting myself to do. I think there was a really clear line of where I could have gone or something. And I looked at the line and I, and I was like, oh God, like, is this really what I'm going to do? Am I just going to like follow this very straight line of what I can make, like, am I going to regret not trying some things out first? And the thing that's been very, I think, odd about my life is all of my experimentation has had to happen kind of, like, publicly through albums.

So I never really got a chance ever from when I was 17 to, like, try something else and see what I could be. And so with Found Heaven, I took it a bit like life boot camp. I tried a bunch of things. I learned so much about songwriting from Max Martin and from all those people. Like things I never even knew were parts of songwriting that you should ever even think about. And I knew that I was in a time where if I didn't, let myself try something out and didn't let myself really have to like become someone different who I can look back at and kind of be like, okay, there's parts of this that is me and parts

of this that isn't. Then I was going to like kick myself forever. What's it like working with Max Martin? I mean, he's the best of the best, actually. I learned so, so much I can't even, I don't know if I could even explain. But it was like, I think the biggest thing I learned about from him was just melody. I never really thought about melody ever until him. He's so meticulous and obviously so just incredible at melody. It ended up being this like, yeah.

I mean, I love the album because you can tell I'm like actively trying to become something different and trying to. to learn and trying something out. I look back in it. It makes me like really happy that I gave it a shot. Yeah, Max is one of my mentors. And I think when you get into the discipline around it, you know, the way you treat composition with such specificity,

the way you treat melodies with such intention is something that when you naturally write, at least when I, I shouldn't say you, when I naturally write in a bedroom when I'm younger, I'm just writing what I think a good song is. And there's like, there's an intention around writing certain kinds of songs that once you're sort of, once that's in your head, it's impossible to take out.

Yeah. You know, and bringing those skills forward to your next projects is just invaluable, you know? Because the way you frame titles, the way you complete phrases or whatever, you just think about it. Even if you're going to actively not do that, you still think like, wait, is this okay? Yeah. I mean, like little stupid things, like, oh, never, like, try not to let like a great melody

run over another great melody. Like, try not to like make it so that it's impossible to sing along to. Totally. All these little things that I just like. I feel like I learned so much and I got to take all of this like invaluable knowledge from this time of experimentation and learning in my life. This like, yeah, legitimately like boot camp. And then I got to use it on on Wishbone. And I couldn't have made it at all if it wasn't for Found Heaven.

It's also so great. Like you're, you know, 28, 27, 26. I'm not bad at math. But, you know, you're at a place where you can like use, you know, you're going to be 40 and still you'll have, you know, another 10 albums done in your life or more. And you'll be able to look back and be like, oh, that's a turning point because that brought this, which brought that, which brought this. And when you're in real time, it all feels impossible to have perspective. but you can't get to Wishbone without... You can't do it.

No. It's like there's a... It's not just a butterfly effect. It's like an elephant effect. Oh, and it was like the heaviest time ever, that whole experience. I like was such a spoiled rat when it came to like everything that's happened with my career in the sense that like I started making music and people just... like started to like it and I was like, whoa.

And I was like la la la la la la la la la like made more music and more people liked it. And I was just like kind of like I don't know it just happened like it I always explained like it like happened to me. Like I don't it was like I was like whoa what's happening? And then and then with found heaven I was like what do I do now? Wait a minute like I didn't ever expect to even make like one album now I'm on my third like what the hell am I supposed to do with myself? It was so enlightening.

You go back to Dan after this and you have you know, going and kind of finding what works right now. You know, it's not like you have to work with Dan forever and ever and ever.

But like you go back to Dan and you work on Wishbone. How did it feel the first session of Wishbone? How did it feel walking into that room? Dan and I really kind of like eased into making the album because I also didn't quite know that I was making the album when I first started to make it.

What do you mean? I started writing it during Found Heaven because I think there was part of me that was kind of in real time discovering that I was making an album that sounded like this, but also there's this part of me that like is uncageable and if I and I have to express this little piece of me. I didn't quite know what it was but I was like I have some things that I need to get off my chest that I'm not quite getting off my chest here for some reason. So I was writing them privately for a solid year just writing and writing and I was on tour with found heaven and I was writing

I was like, I mean, like, I was, I wrote like a huge chunk of Wishbone actively on tour in hotel rooms. Like, I'll, like, I remember I wrote like one of the songs on the album I wrote in like Bangkok, like in my hotel room. So I was writing them not quite understanding what I was making. And I was playing them to Dan and he was telling me which ones he felt like were me. And I slowly just eased into it. I started with Ethan, working on a few tracks that Dan and I kind of picked together. And then I started recording with Dan probably like six or seven months after I'd already been recording with Ethan for a bit. it was this very kind of like slow process of kind of remembering myself and remembering

what I can do and who I am and and also kind of rediscovering who I am because you don't really know and I'm sure I'm going to look back at this interview and be like, what a fucking idiot. But I, yeah, it was a slow thing. It was slow. Vaca Cranberry has a moment at the end where you jump into your falsetta and I said, I'm going to steal your voice. And that's how we talked about before I think this interview started. That moment drives me nuts because I have a pretty wide range.

Can't do that. Well, if it makes you feel any better, I also can barely do. it. How many takes does it take to sing the end of vodka cranberry? To sing the high note, we, I think, did it like three or four times because there's only so many times you can sing that now until your voice is like, shut the fuck up. Like, actually. So only probably like three, three, four times.

What in this process, one thing, like you were saying how one of the best parts of what you've discovered is that it's it's more that um it's more that whenever you if you feel like something works for you that it it is you you know uh it feels like they're you know class clown feels really intimate you know chemist especially comparatively to buck primary um what of these songs do you feel what's the song that you play people first when you're like, this is my new me. The way, you know, the way Heather works. Like, what's the version of that where you're like, this is me?

Because that took six songs to get to. Yeah. When I was working on the album, the first song I recorded for the whole album was Connell. Did you hear Connell? It's not on the... It's not on the... Oh, yeah, yeah. No, it is. It's number four.

Yeah. It was one where, you know, music, like, production-wise, it's quite simple. It's guitars and strings and I sing. But I think material-wise, it immediately set a precedent of, like, if you say anything that isn't this honest, then it's not going to be good enough for the rest of the album. So I felt really lucky because right at the beginning, I had written and recorded a song that was so much more deep into my soul than I'd gone. And there was no space for me to not hit that feeling for the rest of the album. How do you do that?

Aren't you scared? Like mortified. Why do you why does somebody choose to bear their soul on a recording that's going out to millions of people? I think that I mean, I can't say this for everyone, but I think that for the people who've listened to my music and given me their time, it's always been because it's never like a lyric that like I don't think twice about. It's always like that one lyric that I'm like, am I really going to say this? Like, I don't really feel like signing on something. Or like, I don't know if people are going to relate to this right now. It's always that one lyric that's like the most miserable for me to like write down on the page and be like,

okay. So I knew that I just had to be as honest as possible or else I was going to be doing a disservice to like myself and also to the people who were going to give me their time to listen to the album. people are not stupid they can tell when you're not quite being yourself or if you're not being honest you are style-wise you're ahead of the curve your your aesthetic is so important to you who helps with that is that is are you naturally this person who's just so well-rounded with art that you like, I'm a musician, I am a, I love fashion. I love, do you love all of it? I love all of it. I love all of it so much. It's, yeah, I love it. I mean, from when I was young, I always loved clothes and I loved the past and the town that I grew up in was very, a lot of

things hadn't really changed much. And so I found it really interesting because I was like surrounded by a huge amount of stuff from like 40s and the 50s and 60s and 70s, I just thought it was so interesting. There was so much there that like I think because we grew up in that town, we kind of didn't really think twice about, but it became a part of who I was. And I also just love making things. I love drawing. I love painting. I love writing. I love pictures. I love design. I love all of it. Going back real quick to Wishbone. Besides, Connell, what are your favorite, tell me about three songs from the album that everyone should know and why. I'll start this song.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to start that one. I was going to say this song. This song was exactly what I needed to say at the beginning because I think there's a naivity to it and a freshness to it that feels so much like a new beginning or something. something. I think that whole song sounds like springtime. It's like cold water. There's a lot of, in comparison to the other three albums, there's a lot of, it feels really sunshiny compared. There's a lot of that in this album. It ended up being like weirdly optimistic in the end of it all.

It feels like there's like, this is like weird, but it feels a lot of yellow in this. Yeah, like I was very, very like, I don't know, I just had like, I was like lightning, like the whole time. I had so much fun writing it. I felt so. Even nauseous is like a really like, it's a really positive. It's quite pretty as a pretty song. It's a pretty song. Yeah.

I'm sorry, I just named the, I'm naming your songs. The question was to you, not to me, but. Yeah, I think it's this song because that felt like the beginning. This song was the second song where I recorded for the album. It's just like, aha, like here's the sound that I feel like is like completely new to me. That feels so me without a doubt. So it was this song. I think that the second one to me is class clown.

Because that one felt like it's one of the only songs that's very much not about romantic relationships in any way. It's just about me and my own life. But it touches upon a feeling that I have felt my whole life. And I've never been able to kind of like itch that scratch in a song before because it's a very specific thing that I think everyone has felt before, this feeling of like gesturing, I guess, to the world. I took it as because it's sort of like I'm still the class clown, you know, that there's in the industry, it feels like there aren't a lot of people

who are unapologetically themselves. And so I thought it was like written from a, which maybe it is. But it feels like, I feel that way too. And my, like I can relate to that feeling like I feel like amongst songwriters that I still feel like the class clown. Like I still feel like I have this weird journey within a group of people who are also generally class clowns. But I still feel like, I still feel like the class clown.

I feel like I've, it's the journey I've chosen. It made me, I related to those like, oh yeah, I'm still the class. So you took it as a bit more of like feeling a bit out of place. Proudly. Yeah. Like, like in a, yeah. In a good way, though, almost. Yeah, I think of it as, I mean, I was the class clown and I feel, I think I was in junior

high and high school and college. And I feel like I still am me. Yeah. And like I haven't lost the fact that I have my own journey in it. Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. Because I totally get like that interpretation of it as well.

And I think there's a part of that song that very much is about that feeling of like in a weird way that kind of like owning your clownness. Your clownness. Yeah, or like taking it and using it for yourself rather than like, it's a bit like that. There's a lyric in the second verse that says like, take your pick, be laughed at or laughed with. Like I learned either way it's a shitstick. Like if people are going to laugh at you, you can either laugh with them or be laughed at. Regardless, it's still bit shit. So just like do whatever you want.

Sure. It's a little like nihistic, I guess. And I think that that song, to me, is about that feeling of like when you, I've done this my whole life. It's something that I think shy people learn really quickly, which is if you can be funny, you can really hide behind it. And I've always, from the second I reached middle school and realized that people were making fun of me, it was very much like, oh, if I can make that. joke first, then you can't make it because I made it and now it's mine. And that whole song is about that feeling of like, I look back at it and my whole life and everything that's happened and I still feel very much like I'm hiding behind like the butt of a joke and that I am being

followed by like my entire lifetime of feeling like I am not good enough or something. I don't know. it just scratches a niche that I've always felt a bit like I'm hiding behind a version of myself that's a jester. My friends talk about all the time, gesturing. You know, when you're at, you're at like a, I don't know, a dinner or something. And like you're making a joke and everyone's laughing. And for a moment there, you're like, I am completely invisible. Oh, interesting. Yeah.

I still take that almost like that. that's really interesting. I think of it as like when you're at a place, I put myself in the clown shoes even at that dinner where it's like, there are moments where it's like, oh, maybe this is the person people like.

Yeah. You know, is this? 100%. That's exactly the feeling, yeah. What's a third song? I think that the third song, I think that the third song to me is Connell.

That's the one that I, I like have craved the whole time I was working on the album. It was like my touch point. I would write a song and I'd listen to Connell. I'd be like, okay. I'd be sad. I'd listen to Connell. I'd be happy.

I'd listen to Connell. It was always Connell. Like the whole album was always rooted in the feeling of Connell. This damn Connell like was following me the whole album. And I was yearning for that song the whole time. And yeah, it's still like I listen to it all the time. Because I only have a little bit longer than I'm, that I can listen to it without people telling me what they think of it.

I tend to not listen to songs once they're released, but those moments before, I can't get enough of demos. Yeah, it's the last time it's yours. It's hard to explain that to that feeling of, you know, even if it was five people who listen, it's become somebody else's thing. Like, I had a different feeling of class clown than you did. Like, people will listen to it and they'll make it their own.

And it's hard to explain the magic that happens for a musician when they're holding on to the demo. Yeah. You know, it's an exciting moment. What's advice you'd give to young Conan Gray that's a, we already talked to 15-year-old, but there's some kid out there who wants to be a rock star. What do you tell somebody who's 12 years old who wants to be a rock star? I'd say follow your gut and don't

follow your gut and have the bravery to take it seriously I think I witnessed this a lot when I was growing up people made fun of me so much for caring about what I was doing like I cared so much about writing songs

I cared so much about making videos and making art I was a very serious kid I think it was probably pretty annoying because I didn't think it was very funny. Like I really liked making the songs and I really liked them. And people did everything in their power

to make me feel, try to make me feel embarrassed that I really cared about this thing. But I let myself take it seriously. I let myself care. It's so much easier to not care and be like, oh yeah, whatever. I just like,

do this thing. I just like write songs sometimes. Like, but if you let yourself like care about it as much as you know you care about it deep down, like it's amazing what you can achieve. Like half the battle is just letting yourself admit to yourself that you actually really fucking care about something. I love that. I think it's hard to, for young artists, and it's not a competition in the same way that, yes, there's 40 radio slots. So if you're aiming for pop radio, then there's some competition.

But you have to be, again, unapologetically yourself. But the quality of what you are creating needs to compete with somebody who is, whose entire career, even since they started, was focused on, was in the face of people saying you should be embarrassed. Like all of us who have a career in music At some point Had people who were like this is They thought it was like a joke or it was funny or it wasn't serious

Or it wasn't good enough Yeah I'm like no no This is real I'm gonna keep going for this No I really care I keep doing this And your competition when you're even when you're 12 years old

As you go you're going to have to create Art that is of a certain quality that which means that you have to dedicate your life to it if you really want to compete it even if songs happen in the shower sometimes no Dan Nigro recording was done in the shower like it took you had to sing these songs so many times to get the takes that were like perfect you know yeah and it's like it takes that dedication so hard to explain how dedicated you need to be and maybe it's unexplainable. It's also like partially just dedication

that just comes from obsession. Like if you don't want to do it, then don't do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think you and I and most people who end up in music, like, we do it because we fucking are obsessed with it. So I probably would have done it anyways. Sure. But, yeah.

Well, thank you for doing this podcast. You know, we have a lot of friends in common, and it's fun to watch people, especially, you know, anybody who could release music before the pandemic, grow in the pandemic and come out with elegance and perseverance. You can't help but root for those people. And, man, look, I got a short list of songs that I wish I wrote and Memories is on that. I listened to that song way too many times. We didn't even talk about it because it was just making me mad at you.

It's just not right, man. Because the thing is like, what's cool is like, tempo changes. You're allowed. You're allowed to go and actually sing all the way there. Go all the way there. Like, you do, you've made choices in your artistic career that are bold, even for people who record music every single day. You're just like, man, I don't write a song like that.

So thank you for just being so honest that you even made a song that I wish I wrote. So I appreciate you. I'm very flattered. Thank you.