And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 219: Laufey | Redefining Jazz for a New Generation

Episode Date: September 2, 2025

Today’s guest is nothing short of a phenomenon.With roots in Iceland and China, raised in a family of classical musicians, she grew up between symphony halls and jazz records — and has now become the defining voice of her generation.Her music is a breathtaking blend of timeless jazz, classical elegance, and modern storytelling that has captivated millions around the world. From posting standards online during college to headlining the Hollywood Bowl, she’s built a movement — proving that jazz not only lives, but thrives in the hands of a new generation.Her Grammy-winning sophomore album, Bewitched, cemented her as an international force. And now with her brand-new release, A Matter of Time, she dives deeper into emotional vulnerability and sonic ambition — pushing jazz, classical, and folk influences into a sound that feels both cinematic and intimate.Named one of Time’s Women of the Year, celebrated by critics and adored by fans, she is redefining what it means to be an artist in the modern age.And The Writer Is… Laufey!And The Writer Is… is hosted by Ross Golan and executive produced by Joe London and Jad Saad. As always, we’d like to thank our friends at the National Music Publishers’ Association. The NMPA is dedicated to protecting the rights of songwriters and music publishers, ensuring that the creators behind the songs we love are fairly represented and compensated. We’re grateful for their continued support of this show and our community of writers.Learn more at NMPA.org Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This season is presented by NMPA, the National Music Publishers Association. Champions of songwriters and publishers everywhere. I moved to L.A. summer of 2021 with these songs in my backpack. I think I literally Googled how to release a song. Please welcome a Grammy winner. You made an artistic choice to be who you are. Did you ever feel like you should do music like them? I've never really considered anything else.

My mom's a musician. So my whole life was just classical music. And I knew I wanted to be a blend of the music I loved, but I had no example of it. And I didn't really know how it was going to sound yet. I think a lot of people think the music industry is somehow more difficult than other industries. There is a divide between the industry and the rest of the world. The rodent is very unclear. And all of these jobs, like, it's not transparent.

I was a musician my whole life, but I didn't know any of these jobs existed. I want people out in the world to know how many jobs there are available. and how many things you can do. If you're too precious about your first material, you could end up never putting anything out. How much does online life affect your offline life? Hmm. I mean, probably more than I'd like to admit.

Welcome to And The Writer is. I am your host, Ross Golland. Today's guest is redefining America's genre. Just when people think our culture has moved on, someone with vision steps into the footsteps of jazz. Jazz Giants and introduces the next generation to our greatest art form. Born in Iceland and raised between continents, this artist blends timeless sophistication with the vulnerability of a coming-of-age storyteller.

Berkeley schooled, worldly trained from viral TikTok to sold-out arena shows. This woman is bringing jazz back into mainstream all the way from... Where are you from again? Where do you? Where's your house? in L.A. All the way from L.A. And the writer is Lavei.

Hi. Thanks for it. That was a very, very nice intro. In 200-something episodes, I don't think I've had it in reverse, but I DM'd you two years ago and said, come to L.A. and write with me. I remember this. I just, I am a genuine fan of what you do. Like, it's been so fun to watch the world digest.

and love what you do, but it's just so good. Oh, thank you. So I'm starting with that. Also, I hound gabs all the time. I'm just like, what's going on? What is she working on? How is she doing? Yeah, a lot of people hound down.

Yeah, yeah, as they should. Let's start from the beginning, because I actually think a lot of people don't know, you know, the journey that you've gone through. But, you know, tell me about, you know, your childhood. I mean, are your parents musicians? Yeah, so my mom's a musician. She's a classical musician.

She plays the violin. And her parents, my grandparents, are also classical musicians. So my whole life was just classical music. Like, literally from the time I was in diapers, I was, like, backstage at the symphony. When you think of classical music, do you think Bach, Debussy, do you think, you know, is it traditional? Is it Shostakovich? Is it? All of the above.

Yeah. I think, you know, everything I studied in my kind of classical training, I would say. I mean, anything before the 20th century and even during the 20th century. Right. Like Shostakovich. But, yeah, I think classical music was kind of what brought me into music at all. And then growing up, I really loved, like, musical films. So like Golden Age musical films were like my favorite.

Any like Gershwin musicals, Rogers and Hammerstein, like Irving Berlin. Like that was like what kind of got me into singing weirdly. Because like I didn't listen to that much classical singing, but I loved to sing. I kind of didn't relate to classical. I guess I just literally didn't understand the lyrics. But like I remember when I was like four or five years old, I'd be watching the sound of music and I love the lyrics and I loved. as I grew older and, you know, I started to digest the lyrics more than just doer me fuss, you know, that song, um, Doa Deer, you know, now I think like something good from the sound of

music is one of the best songs ever written. Like I listen to that song all the time and it's so complex and so beautiful. And so, yeah. Anyways, that kind of music is what brought me into singing. And then my dad would play a lot of jazz and like world music at home and, and through, through him I got to know like Ella Fitzgerald and Billy Holiday and chap Baker and I think the combination of all of those styles of music kind of make me who I am today. But then I never really denied that I was like a younger, like I loved Miley Cyrus. I loved Hannah Montana. Like I love Taylor Swift and all of those kind of, you know, mid-2000s like pop girls. Like I love that music too. So and I especially loved how they were expressing their lives with these stories. And, you know,

I was 12 years old and I was relating to heartbreak songs that I'd never gone through heartbreak, but I just, the storytelling was so vivid. I loved Sarah Borrellas. Like her songwriting, I think, has like inspired me the most. And I just like loved how potent her stories were. But still with like a really, I don't know, really, really beautiful melodies. And I don't know. Have you met Sarah?

I have met Sarah. She's the best. She's like one of those people I still like truly fan girl over. I think because, I don't know, she just, I listened to her so much when I was younger and like still hearing her speak. I'm like, what are you talking to me? Her and Nora Jones have that effect on me. I'm like, you're not real to me, you know? Anyone that's like my age and I've seen a lot on the internet, I'm kind of like, oh, this is cool.

But I found girl in a very different way when it's like a Nora or a Sarah who I'm just like, you like soundtracked my childhood. Because everyone else who's soundtracked my childhood is not alive anymore. Yeah, I was just about what to say. And what's interesting about the musical theater on film part is that a lot of those songs, a lot of musical theater standards are jazz standards and kind of vice versa. And I think a lot of people don't recognize the how sophisticated quality musical theater music is. Yeah, I mean, musical theater gets. such a bad rap and I've always loved musicals so much. They were like my escape when I was a kid.

But also because I love jazz standards so much and jazz standards are, I would say the majority of them are taken for musicals. And I think that's why the songwriting in jazz standards is so interesting. Like the storytelling is so clear because they're always describing a scene and you just have a couple of seconds to describe like what you're eating or you're smelling what you're wearing or how you're feeling. And so the descriptions in jazz standard lyrics are so interesting to me because they're always just like ripped out of a musical. So, yeah.

A lot of jazz musicians or people who are labeled as jazz musicians because I think you have jazz tendencies, but you're you're more of a musician. Yeah. It happens that you get sort of labeled in that world, but you're able to do, your music is is of the world. It's not really... Yeah, it's such an interesting conversation. Like, you know, what genre am I? And I literally never know what to answer.

And everybody tries to put me in a different box and everyone has like a little bit of a different take. What genre are you? I don't know. I would say it's like a mix of so many things. It's a mix of pop and classical and jazz, of course, and theater and Bossa Nova. Like, probably those together, if that even makes sense. But I don't know, to me, like, my harmonic and melodic tendencies just come from what I grew up with and what comes to my mind. It's never, like, I never feel like it's picking a genre and going in that direction.

It's just, it's always, like, led by lyrics and melody and harmony. And then it just, I don't know, ends up in a certain world. But I don't know. like I've studied, I studied classical my whole life. So that's kind of like my, I feel like that, that's my like fundamental kind of, those are my roots. But then as I got to college and I started taking vocal jazz lessons and then I was playing in jazz combos at Berkeley and kind of got to know that world in a way more technical way and was like learning about improvisation and stuff like that and really fell in love with, with like more of a jazzy jazz sound that was away from musical theater.

So I've had like my moments in every corner of it. And I feel like my sound now is just a mix of all of those different things. Yeah, you mentioned, you know, Chet Baker and Ella and Billy. And all of those, they all do covers. None of them, I mean, Chet later wrote more. But when you think of the best of chat, it was covers. Right. And, but so much of what you do is writing songs.

Yeah. Why don't you, why do you write songs? Oh, I mean, I mean, Chet Baker and Ella Fitzgerl, they didn't necessarily, like, they covered songs, but they were so, they improvised so much. And that was like their creation, right? And like, if we really think about what makes Chet and Ella so special, like, of course, they have beautiful voices. They have beautiful, I mean, Chet's a beautiful trumpet player, but like, I think.

For me, what I love so much from them is, like, their improvisation. Like, their solos are so iconic and so them. Like, you can immediately tell it's them. You know, anybody can sing a, sing a Cole Porter tune, but, like, how are they going to improvise? Like, when you can tell that, when you can immediately hear a solo and just know it's Cheb Baker, like, you know those licks, you know those inflections. Like, I feel like that's what really makes a jazz musician, a jazz musician. So, I mean, I don't improvise nearly as much.

I improvise a bit on stage and when I'm like in a more of a classic kind of combo setting, I do. But the reason I write is like, I mean, that's my improvisation, right? That's how I start writing. I'm always like singing over some sort of chords and that's how it gets started. But the reason I want to write like with lyrics as well and write songs, write the standards, if you will, is I just love that form of, self-expression. Like I want, I have thoughts on my mind that I want to get out. I, the songs that

touch me the most are, actually, I don't know, there's so many different songs. There's songs with no lyrics that touch me the most, so I don't really know what I'm saying. But I just think lyrics that are relatable and lyrics that tell, like good storytelling is like everything to me. And I always want to tell stories, my own stories and convey my own thoughts into something. That's where the Rogers and Hammerstein background is really helpful, what you're saying and telling stories. When you talk about Basanova, you know, the Joao Gioberto and the Stan Getses and some of those people, who are your influences on for Basanova?

I'm like a huge Astrid Gilberto fan. She is like my everything. I feel like I've just gotten to know her more and more. And I kind of like, of course, I'd heard certain recordings, but I really started like deep diving into her catalog, like, I want to say like two years ago. And even now, like, I think she's going to be my most listened to artists this year. I've just become so obsessed. I also went to Brazil recently and kind of got to, you know, hear the language more and fall in love more with the culture. And, you know, Bosanova is such a, like, Brazilians are so proud of it. It really is like their culture. And, like it's the sound of Brazil and it's really it's something that I'm so, so taken by. And it was, yeah, it was cool to get to go to Brazil and see it. But yeah, Astro Gilberto, I want to say Luis Bonfa. I also really love Alice Regina I've gotten into as well.

I mean, all the classics. You have the Zhao Gilberto's and. You grew up in, you didn't grow up in the U.S. initially, but you travel back and forth. Tell me about the influence of language in songwriting when was English your first language or was? No, English is actually my third language. But I think now it's the language I speak the best. What are the, what language do you think in?

Like a cross between English and Icelandic. When do you flip into Icelandic versus English? Anytime I don't want somebody to understand what I'm saying, I flip into Icelandic. Icelandic. Well, I always have like an Icelander with me. So like wherever I am, I usually have someone to speak Icelandic too. So why is that important? I don't know. I guess my life is so public now and all my words are so public. And Icelandic feels like almost my own little secret language now. There's so few people that speak it. It's like it's like a safety thing for me now. Like speaking in Icelandic feels like my safety blanket.

What's your second language? Icelandic's my second language. What was your first? Chinese, Mandarin. Wow. It's my first language, funnily enough. How's your Mandarin now? It's all right.

I feel like I kind of speak like a child still. Like I can have conversations and understand pretty well. And, you know, I can get through a day. I don't know if I could have like a philosophical conversation without throwing a few English words in. Sure. But pretty well. Like I really, like that feels like, that's what my mother spoke to me, speaks to me. You know, my grandmother speaks Chinese to me.

Is it comforting to hear Mandarin? It is. It's really comforting. I think it feels, it's like my mother tongue. It's like it feels like home a little bit. And it's the language I was taught to play cello in. It was piano in. It's the language that I learned music in.

And people often ask me, like, how have these different languages affected who you are as a musician? I'm like, or these cultures even. And I'm like, the Chinese side of myself is like the side that I learned music from. Yeah, I think my grandmother, this is your story, not mine, but my grandparents were from Hungary and Romania. and when I hear that Hungarian accent, it's like I'm immediately like a child. Yeah. Like it melts.

It's so much of just, you just forget where you are. You're like subconsciously just like go back to being a five-year-old. Let's go back to some music stuff. So, you know, you're listening to you're playing classical music, your dad's playing some jazz. When do you actually say, I kind of want to make something up?

It took me a lot longer than most. I think I was so, I'd become such a good student of music. And especially in classical music, like, you're studying like 17th century musicians when you're 10. Like you're, it's so, it took me a really long time to understand that I could be the creator of music, that I could line myself up with the greats in any way. And it took a lot of, it takes a lot of, it takes a lot of, of confidence. And I definitely wasn't that like 12 year old kids drumming a guitar, like writing about a middle school crush. I didn't have a middle school crush. I was like such a sheltered child and I was like so scared of boys until I was like 20. And honestly, that's like when I started writing music, I think I was, I needed to live life and move out and kind of like when I moved out to college when I was 19 and was, I'm a twin. And that was the first time I was being perceived as an individual, not just as a twin. And I was like going around and just being like a normal teenager and young person and finally having these experiences that I felt were worth writing about.

And I also, I got to Berkeley and there were so many kids who were just making music. All of a sudden, the scales had changed. Like the, the, the, merit system was different. Like, in classical music, it's who's playing the best technically and musically, this music that's in front of you, right? Whereas I felt for the first time at Berkeley that the merit system was like based on how well you could create music. It was like, who's the best creator of music? Those are like the coolest students, the ones who were producing and writing and even like, you know, the jazz musicians who were the best at improvising and how. And how, had like the best, like those were the musicians that I looked up to all of a sudden. It was no longer

just the kids who were playing like a certain passage really, really well. And that was like a really important moment for me to realize that I also didn't have to follow certain rules. That was like a huge thing for me to get over because obviously in classical music, there's so many rules. And even when I've been studying jazz, like there were all. rules to that that I was learning. Because anytime you're studying anything, there are rules, right? Even with improvising, like, they say there are no rules, but there are rules. You still need to follow the changes. And you need to like, it needs to make sense, you know? And when I got to Berkeley, it was just like the first time where kids were just doing anything. I was like,

this is cool. Like, and it's okay if you make something that sounds awful. Like, you have to make something awful to create something good. You know, you have to get through that. You need to climb that mountain first. Even now, I'll like write songs that are so shitty, but I know that writing that shitty song might be the gateway to this really amazing song that becomes, you know, the song I love the most. So, yeah, it was like a big moment of realizing that I didn't have to follow certain rules that I could just, that actually there was a beauty in breaking rules. now when I, like, write music and I realize that I'm, like, not following something. I'm like, oh, that's kind of cool. Or if I'm not sure, even when I'm now when I'm like doing music

videos, right? And I have an idea for it. And I'm like talking to the director or something. And I'm like, I don't know if this is normal or not because obviously I'm not a music video director. But I find such a joy in having that question now. Like, anytime my mind is like, is that right? Is that okay? I'm like, okay, I might be on to something. Yeah, exactly. Because that was like, when I found myself becoming a musician, I was truly proud of, that's when I started asking those questions. So who's the gauge? When you send, you know, you're a very prolific writer. It's not like you're not releasing three song EPs. You're releasing albums. And you're saying you write bad songs on occasion.

Who do you send your songs to, you know, to hear what they think? I send them to my sister, to my twin sister, because she's the only, she's the only person who will give me the unfiltered opinion. She's good taste in music. She has really good taste in music. The songs that she likes are never the ones that are popular, but they're always, they kind of line up with the ones I love the most. So she, she's always a fun one to send it to. I send it to my manager often. but I don't send a song unless I believe it's like recording worthy.

It's the really shitty ones no one's heard. Except for myself. It's just practice. But what's weird is like that it's what you were saying also though. And there's what makes it shitty tends to not be that it's vanilla. It tends to be because you took a risk and it was like that's a bad lyric or that's a bad whatever. Yeah. Or like a weird melody or something.

Exactly. Yeah. The weird thing about melody and jazz, too, it's like sometimes you change the chord underneath it and the melody's brilliant. Yeah. No, totally. And I've like, I mean, I break so many rules.

Like, I have songs that resemble jazz standards that I've written that, like, technically shouldn't slide, you know? Like, I've worked with producers and writers who have, like, a jazz, like a more traditional jazz background, but then have, like, started doing more like pop. And like when I come to them with like a jazz idea, they like click back into their jazz self. And and then I'll be like maybe I have like a court idea or something that doesn't like technically make sense for a jazz standard or like, you know, harmonically shouldn't come afterwards. And they're like, you know, this doesn't.

But we always work it out and it's always really cool. And I found that that is what makes me me. It's like that idea that's like maybe borrowed from something else where like something doesn't completely resolve yet. The amount of times I've been in the studio with someone, they're like, oh, but it doesn't resolve. And I'm like, yet. Yes, right. I mean, it doesn't resolve yet. I mean, if you want, my number one rule is not to resolve because I think it just carries

people on forever. Like that suspension is everything in songwriting and you get the Swedes do it really well. The Swedes do it really well. And that's why I love Swedish pop. Yeah. Because it kind of shares that sometimes with a lot of like my favorite classical writing. This sounds insane. But like I love Mahler because that man just drags on like the composer.

Yeah. It's like just he and he just like has you in your fist for like a while because you're like waiting for so long for this thing to resolve. And the Swedish pop guys do that. Yeah. If you end on a two and a four, maybe. six, but seven and whatever, nine, you keep going. Like, you keep somebody wondering. And it's why a lot of those Swedish hooks start on the one and feel like they're,

you know, they feel resolved to start and then they end somewhere else. Yeah. And then you just keep this cycle going. I'm just like, just when you think you haven't figured out, they move on. When you, you know, you grew up saying, you said you also listened to, you know, Miley and Taylor and some of the other people in the 2000. were you ever tempted to do you know you made an artistic choice to be who you are did you ever feel like you should do music like them no because it's so unnatural for me like

i i've always i know how my voice lands well i don't sound good singing like pop pop like i literally sound with like a pop vocal chain my voice lands well my voice lands well i don't sound good singing like pop pop pop like i literally sound with like a pop vocal chain my voice sounds bad the same way that somebody who's like really has like a really bright tone that just rides high and like lounds really well in pop music may try like a certain style and it doesn't completely work like this is just my style yeah like i've never really considered anything else because it just sounds uncomfortable in my tone so when you first released music your style was is not the thing that I think record labels would bank on.

Oh, no. They, I don't know if they would have, you know, cared. When you started, when you started, what was your goal then? My goal was just to make the music I loved and hope that somebody, like, anybody cared. I look back and I'm like, I don't really know. Now that I'm like in the industry and within pop and like, people make calculated decisions as to where to start, and I did not have a calculated decision. I didn't know the industry. I didn't live here. I'd never, I had no connection to anybody.

I went to Berkeley, but like there wasn't really a connection there, like, to the industry. It was just like some cats in Boston. Like, it wasn't, it wasn't something I understood. So I just kind of, I don't even know. I loved singing jazz standards. and I just did it. I don't really, I like started posting videos on myself singing online and like, I just hoped that it would resonate. I had no, like, I wasn't like thinking like, oh, nobody's done this in a while. Like there must be a pocket, like a niche for this.

Like, I hadn't seen it. And I was very much like, I don't know, growing up, I was a realist, you know, you see something that's happened before and you can replicate it. Like, I didn't really, I don't know what I believed, but I was just like, I'll make music and hope that somebody listens. NMPA is the premier organization for music publishers and their songwriter partners. It's their mission to increase the value of music, and that's exactly what they do. NMPA is working right now to raise royalty rates for songwriters from streaming services, radio, social media, and everywhere music is essential. From the courts to Congress, NMPA works to get songwriters what they deserve.

I know because I've served on the board before, and I'm the current co-chair, along with Ryan Teter and Liz Rose for the Golden Platinum Club. So again, thank you NMPA for supporting Ann the writer is and songwriters everywhere. With a parent who is a classical, you know, classical and jazz parents and that have a daughter, It's like, I'm going to go to school for music and then release music. And that's what you're going to pursue. It feels like I know a lot of, you know a lot of these kids from Berkeley who are driving down to New York or playing in Boston doing like random sort of like whatever jazz trio they're in. Yeah.

And the expectation is, man, this is going to be a tough road. You're not going to pay your rent from this. Yeah. You're not going to do the thing. Were your parents worried? Not at all. They were not. If anything, I was worried, I, I was so scared of going into this kind of music.

I think classical music to me, though also an extremely difficult road, it was, I thought, you know, if you practice really hard and you learn, like, like, yeah, if you practice really hard, you auditioned to the best, like, best undergraduate program, best master's program, best professor you can get. best orchestra you can get, you get some students, you have a career. Like, not easy, but linear. Yeah. And with, like, whatever I was trying to do. And I didn't even know what I wanted to do. I knew I wanted to make my own music, and I knew I wanted to be a blend of the music I loved, but I didn't, I had no example of it.

And I didn't really know how it was going to sound yet when I was going to Berkeley. But I will say they, so they gave me like, their presidential scholarship, which is like a full scholarship that covered everything. So they believed in me before I believed in myself, which definitely made it easier to take that risk, right? I don't know if it would have been as easy. I also, I come from Iceland where university is basically free. And my parents were like, we're not paying for college. Like, you also, in like most of Europe, I could go for like a lot less. So my window out was like, this was my window out. And I remember I was really skeptical of going, even with the scholarship,

I was like, okay, but this could be four years of like fun. But then what? Am I going to be a jazz cellist singer, maybe songwriter if I can figure it out? Like it didn't, there was nothing linear about it. And it made no sense. I didn't know the industry at all. And I was like, oh my God, I'm just like, I'm going to fail. And my mom was like, you have to go. My parents were, they encouraged me the most out of anybody, which you wouldn't expect necessarily from like, you know, classical music parents. Like, but my mom, like, she took me to Boston and, you know,

settled me in and stayed with me for two weeks and made sure I really, you know, was comfortable. And she was, she was like, we can do anything. Like, if you want to transfer and do something else, like, you can, but you have to give it a year. She was like, you have to try. So I went and thank God I did. They were, they believed in me more. Yeah, they believed in me more than I believed in myself.

It's hard being apparent. It's weird, it's weird because you recognize, you know, reality is every industry is difficult. I think a lot of people think the music industry is somehow more difficult than other industries. But if you want to be, and there are linear paths in other industries, but the ceiling is also shorter, smaller, lower. If you, you know, in our, in music, there's, the ceiling is almost. almost infinite. It is. Or seemingly infinite.

All the jobs are kind of made up. Yeah. Like you can, if you have an idea of something and you're the first person to think of it, you can do it. This is like the part that really blew me away. I think coming from Iceland as well, like you have doctors, lawyers, violinists. Like everything's very square because there's just not as many people. But here it's like, I was like, when I started like in the industry,

started getting to know everyone around me. I was like, whoa, this is like, you have creative directors, you have, like, social media people. You have like, and then, like, in touring even, it's like there's sound, there's lighting, there's, there's so many different careers within music. I didn't even realize we're there. And it's like, yeah, it's really infinite. It's hard to get to, though. People, like, getting to here, like, I have social media. Like, that's the reason I'm here at all, I would say. But like, there is a divide

between the industry and the rest of the world. Unless you, like, grew up in L.A. or New York or, like, maybe you went to college in L.A. or New York. Like, it's really hard to, like,

the road in is very unclear. And all of these jobs, like, it's not transparent. Like, I was, like, a musician my whole life, but I didn't know any of these jobs existed. Like, it's, I don't know. I've, like, really, like,

want more transparency. I want people out in the world to know how many jobs there are available and how many things you can do. Yeah, you hear about artists, you hear about managers, you hear about record labels, but those are really ethereal. You never hear about all the little, how big this industry really is. Yeah, exactly, and all the opportunities within it. Like, I don't know, I always preached as much as I can. Anytime a kid on the street runs up and it's like, oh, do you have any advice? Like, I'm studying music business. I'm like, there's so much, like, that you can do. But it's hard.

I applied. When I was at Berkeley, I applied to so, because I would have done anything within the music. And like, I applied for summer internships one time. And I thought, you know, I'm like a scholarship student at Berkeley. Like maybe I'll be able to get a scholarship at, no, sorry, an internship at like one of the big record labels or publishers or something. I didn't even get a response from any of them. Like I didn't even get into the second round. it's like it's tough it's not easy i had an interview after i went to u sc and i had an interview

at uh william morris before it was william morris endeavor and i went in and they were like you know why do you want to be an agent and i was like i don't want to be an agent i want a job i want to be a i want to be a songwriter and they're like well you should probably go write songs then i was like well how am i supposed to afford life if i want to be a songwriter they're like that's not really our problem. I was like now and I mean, kudos to me for being honest. Yeah.

But I mean, of course there's whatever. Do you, you are, you know, you obviously enjoy performing live and you're performing in the coolest venues in the world. But to get to that,

you have to be in a studio, writing and recording. Do you love writing and recording as much as you enjoy performing? I definitely. do. I think I feel like I've been performing my whole life. Like I've been playing recitals since I was four. And so I always feel very comfortable on a stage. And now it's extra fun because I'm playing music I wrote myself. And if I fuck up, it's fine. Whereas like before if I fucked up, it was like, my teacher's watching. My mom's watching. I'd go home and fix my problems. Whereas like,

Now I'm like, oh, that's a funny blip. It's like a unique moment in a concert. But I love writing and I love recording. I'm shocked at how much I love it. Like, because I love performing. What do you love most about recording music? I just love building up a song. Like, I love being able to have an idea and immediately execute it.

Like, that is such a cool feeling. And to create some, most of the songs I do. do are recorded within a day or two. And it's like, it's like a very immediate satisfaction. It's so cool. It's really unique to this. I mean, I'm not sure. I don't know what it was like.

Did Ella get charts and just sing it down with that, with that elegance? Or was that somebody who, or did she, were those songs that she recorded because she performed them live and embodied them? Did she have the skill set to go into a studio? I don't know the answer to this. But, like, you know, those greats, the Dean Martin were how cool he is in the, like, that guy had to practice that song a thousand times before he went in. He couldn't have just, nobody reads charts like that, right? I mean, I still read charts.

Can you do that? Can you interpret a chart with that kind of the first time you perform it? first time. Well, they definitely practiced it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. I don't think anybody went in and cite read it completely. I mean, maybe some like musicians, but I don't think singers necessarily do. I don't know. I think like it's such a blessing to get to be such a huge part of the production process nowadays. Like it is now you sit in a room. There's a bedroom element to every, every recording now. Like I get to sit and and I get to call the shots on which instruments I want and which. which sounds I want. And if I want reverb or no reverb or whatever, and I now have the confidence and people have the trust in me to be able to make those calls, I get to be a producer.

You didn't get to even try that before. You know, you walk into a room, like an Ella Fitzgerald probably walked into a room, and there was an arranger and a producer and an engineer and, you know, an assistance and a string arranger. And, you know, you have all these different roles that existed, and you walk into the room and you're just meant to sing. And, I mean, I've had very few experiences like that, but it's, yeah, I don't know if Ella

would have been allowed to call the shots, you know what I mean? I imagine if she were a musician nowadays, she'd be producing the whole record, you know? Yeah, I think that there are a lot of musicians I know who despise the fact that they're so good at their instrument, but that they have to do everything. and they can't just walk in and just be the guitarist or the piano player. Now they have to walk in. They have to understand the idea of the sounds that go with everything. They can't just rip.

They have to actually like. Yeah, you have to do everything. You kind of have to do everything. But you also do the business side, whether you, you know, from the beginning, you were really releasing a lot of this stuff by yourself. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I mean, you do everything now.

Who said to you, there's one thing to say, hey, you're really. really good. You should do this. There's another thing about, hey, here's the business side. You're now going to be, you're now going to release your own music or you're going to, like, you know, you're going to be involved in the business side. Who walked into your life and said, all right, now's sort of like the, we're going to try this. We're going to release it like this. We're going to meet these people. Who's introducing you? I mean, in the beginning, no one. I just put my, like the first single I put. I put. Like, the first single I put out, the first two singles I put out, I just uploaded on the internet on my own. I think I

literally Googled like how to release a song. Like so many kids at Berkeley were putting music up on Spotify and I just thought, oh, I'll figure it out too. And I guess I was kind of like, I don't even know. I guess I kind of just mimicked what popular artists did. I'm like, okay, you put out one single now and then four weeks later you put out another single. And then you promote it on the the internet and hope that something clicks. How wonderful. I don't know. You just do it.

I mean, it's incredible. When Bewitch, you know, one thing that you do on Bewitch that's so interesting is that you were collaborating with a lot of professional songwriters at this point, you know, that's a difference than what you were doing on, you know, everything I know about love was like is a different place in your life versus some of the. you know, named collaborators, if you will, or later. What's the step from, okay,

we're now going to do, it feels like Bewish was like up a level and sort of the personnel that you were collaborating. Oh, for sure. How did that happen? Were people reaching out to you? Were you reaching out to them? No, so, well, everything I know about love

was just all the songs I've written so far. Like I walked around, I moved to L.A. summer of 2021 with these songs in my backpack, if you will. And I just kind of like marched around like trying to find the right person to help me record them. Like the songs were pretty much ready. I think there's like two or three songs that were co-writes that kind of came from sessioning around, which was really cool and getting to know kind of how things work out here was really interesting. So for me, everything. I know about love was just learning how to make an album. And I did that by just making an album, which I always, I'm such an advocate for just putting things out there and just doing the thing. I think if you're too precious about your first material, you could end up never putting anything out. With Bewitched, I just had so much more confidence because I knew how to make an album. And I'd put out music in the world. So, you know, I had the opportunity to be able to, like, collaborate with like Dan Wilson for example and get to walk into those sessions as like not as much

of like a scared newbie a little bit more of like you know like a I mean I didn't feel like an equal I was so nervous and so excited to get to work with him but I was treated as an equal if you will and so yeah it was it was different I also knew I knew what I wanted like everything I know about love, I was still kind of testing out how far I could push my sound. I was still a little scared of doing more classic things because I was so scared of alienating younger audiences. And because ultimately I wanted to make sure that my music was being listened to. And I didn't want people to think that I was just catering to older audiences or a certain group of listeners that already listened to jazz or like adult contemporary.

Your lyrics are what make it not pastiche. Like, I don't think, I think that your audience was with you from the outset because your lyrics were cool. Yeah, I think so. I think I didn't believe it, but now it's so easy to look back and be like, yeah, of course. Yeah, but back then I was like. They wouldn't have gone with you if you were trying to sound like, if you were trying to sound like classic songs, it would sound like a classic song. But you sound like you writing these. Yeah, I have a very just, like I write lyrics the way that I speak and I'm unapologetically,

like a chronically online 20-something year old. That's fine. And I have been for years. How much do commentary by your fans affect the way you write? Hmm. I mean, there's definitely some subconscious influence, I think, you know, when you drink so much of something, like it just becomes a part of you. I try not to get too affected by it, though, just because I've found the most success when I

reach to the past for influence and reach within myself. I think the online conversation steers how I market a song. Like it steers how I, you know, if I see people relating to, this is very, very simple. But if I see people like making videos where they're, you know, saying, oh, like, Levei writes really sad songs. If I'm releasing a sad song, I will remind people that it's a sad song. You know, I'll, like, make a video where, like, I wrote an even sadder song, you know? But never, it never affects my, like, writing and recording process. How much does the music online life affect your?

personal life, your offline life. Hmm. I mean, probably more than I'd like to admit, you know? It's, I have done, since the very beginning, I was so involved in my own career, if that makes sense. Like, I've never been the type of artist that, not that I think that there are many artists like this anymore, but like, I wasn't, I'm not the type of artist

that just like goes into the studio, clicks out, goes on stage, clicks out. Like, it is all consuming always, which is maybe not always a good thing. But, like, I feel like I'm aware of everything that's happening within my career, always, whether it's like the business side or the fan conversation or whatever. So it definitely has, like, an effect on me. Like, I see, I feel like I see the majority of conversations that are happening around me. And that's always hard to ignore.

And that's something that was, I think, helpful when I was first starting out because then I knew like what people thought of me and whatever and I don't know I could that was useful information and I think now it's getting to the point where it's so much bigger than I can handle that it's not always useful information. I don't need to know what, you know, somebody thinks of a certain lyric or thinks of how I dress, you know, that's not something that's useful information to me anymore. So it's something I'm learning to separate. I'm learning to harness like that kind of balance of of being in the know and being connected because I always want to be connected to my fan base and I always want them to know

how much I respect them and care about them. But I also don't want to be in a world where I'm like reading hate comments about myself, you know. It's also not natural. I remember. And you shouldn't. I shouldn't know what people think of one of my singles before it's even out, you know? People haven't heard the full song yet. And I'm already. reading, you know, discourse about, yeah, a 19 second clip. And that's like, that's where I'm starting to draw the line, where I'm like, the artists I look up to and have looked up to my whole life did not use their audience, the discourse, before the art was even out to dictate their moves. So I cannot let that dictate my moves. Yeah, totally. And you posted a few, maybe a year

ago or something. It was some, you know, the, you had a screenshot of maybe where it was, I don't know if it was on Spotify or Instagram, but it was like, you know, one follower, a hundred followers. Then, like, a year later, it was like, maybe it was like that, you're wrapped. Yeah, Spotify wrapped. Yeah, yeah. And it's like, just seeing like how vast the numbers are. And you're, you know, we're meant to, of those people we look up to are performing for 200 people

and in the largest venues at the time, you know, 1,500. people, maybe 2,000 people, but like most of, you know, any, any of those jazz musicians from the 40s are playing for like 200 people at most in the smoky bar. Like they're not, you know, even if the success of some of the albums, they wouldn't necessarily see the responses. Yeah, you only get like newspaper critiques and rumors. Yeah, right. You can't.

You can't experience. in real time what, you know, any of those greats that might have scratched on gold albums or platinum albums, like they wouldn't have, they wouldn't have the, they wouldn't see people listening to it. They wouldn't experience, they would, people would buy it and listen to it in their own time. And then that was like, it's, and that's why I'm trying to shut it out because I'm like, how is that something I think about a lot is like all, and in all mediums, not only music, like in film and visual art and stuff.

I'm like, how is it going to affect, like when we look back in history, when we look back at this time in the future, how will art be different now than it was from 100 years ago knowing that we had so much access to audience, like critique and comments and, you know? Is it going to, is art going to change faster because of that? or is it, I don't know.

But it's something I think about a lot. I don't know why. Probably because you're in it. Because I'm in it. Yeah. And I think that's fair. I actually think, you know, one of the things I try to get artists to recognize when they walk into this building

and say no ego. The only ego that matters in some ways is the audience. Like how do we give them an experience where they can, where when they think they're about to hear what they think a lay ve song is that it's something that's next level that or it's your version of your like where you want to take them is what made sketches is being great is because you thought you knew where he was going to go and then it's like nope I'm going to also put this out and like what you know and those great albums are ones that would be these like quite like they were there were something of a left turn or maybe not a total 90 degree

angle, but they were turns. And so you follow them. And yeah, I, that's out of, it's not just about the artist's ego. It's a little bit about recognizing that the audience thinks they know what, what they want, and you're trying to give them entertainment. And yeah, no, totally. I think, I think we really owe it to audiences just to make something that comes from our hearts, because at the end of the day, they are listening to you and what your, your output is. They're not necessarily listening to what their fellow fans think, you know. Yeah, right. But it's interesting being now like five years into my career and kind of, I feel that tug

of like needing to continue growing. I've shown the world who I am. I've like, you know, I've put down my flag. Like, this is my sound. This is who I am. And this will never change. But you can't just repeat the same things again and again. And as I mature as a woman, like I put my first song out when I was 20 and I'm 26 now.

It's like, you know, a very different, I am a very different, I was in college still and I was in the middle of a pandemic. And now I'm like, my life is completely different. And so, of course, the way I see the world and the way and the musical influences that I've learned in the past six years have also, you know, changed a lot. So it's really, it's been an interesting journey with this album, especially kind of. seeing how I can stay rooted in my principles while still growing and serving myself while still serving the audience. Yeah. But serving the audience is serving myself.

No question. And I think that's also in real time when, you know, we look back at somebody's discography and you think, well, that album's a smash, that album's not, that one thing. Right. And in real time, their entire teams must have been like, well, it's all over for Elton John. It's all over for the Beatles. But they had albums that didn't work. Exactly.

And they're the greatest. You know what I mean? Like when you have like it's and then, you know, and then there are those moments. You're like, oh, they just knocked it out again. Yeah. What made you, so in a matter of time, you decide you really hone in your team. It's no longer, I'm going to, you know, in Bewitch, you had a bunch of different collaborators. And you decide to really, for a matter of time, it feels like you were like, this is, I'm just going to lock in and do this album.

Why did you decide to do that? Why is it this path for this album? Why is it different than the last album? Because I wanted to develop my sound, but the development needed to come from me, not from collaborators. And that was, to me, I guess, when I talk about like wanting to stay true to my principles, that's how I stay true to my principles. I just kind of locked in and, like, wanted it to come from my voice. Like, 99% of the lyrics on the album, I just wrote on my own in my bedroom. and I think sabotage is the only song that I like that Spencer and I like wrote together.

But other than that, it was like everything. And even sabotage, I like started in my bedroom. Like they all became songs just when I was completely on my own and no one was around me. And that was something that I think for me gave me the truest songs and gave me the truest sounds. it would have been such a cliche, right, to have one album that, you know, wins a Grammy or, you know, brings me to, you know, the Hollywood Bowl or whatever that, um, and then just go and work off with all these big shots, right? And I did get to work with some and that was really cool. And, and like I hope to one day, even more. But with this album, I just, I just knew I had to kind of lose. lead it by myself. And it had to feel intimate. It's my loudest album, but it's the most intimate. And yeah, I just, I think I had so much more confidence after the first two albums to just call the

shots on doing exactly what I wanted and, you know, produce them in a way that felt unique, but very me. And that was, that was the only way for me to develop my sound without losing myself. I What is a hit to you? Because your metrics are different than if I were to ask Taylor the same question, she's going to have a different response. What is success to you at this point? You've had Grammy recognition. You've had time women of the year, you know, person of the year recognition.

This is some crazy shit, right? You sell out the Hollywood Bowl. you do this album essentially in a bedroom and then bring it, you know, then you do it for real, but you're writing it from that place. What to you, when you started, you said your goal was just to see if someone would listen to it. What is your goal now? My goal now. This is a good question because I've been thinking a lot about it.

I really, I had a bucket list when I started. and I think I've checked everything off the bucket list. Like I didn't even know the scope of what was possible, right? The craziest thing that I had written on my bucket list was get nominated for a Grammy because I was too scared to write win a Grammy because it was so far sought for me. So I've checked everything off my bucket list, except for doing a James Bond theme song. That's still on the bucket list.

Maybe that was the most far saw one. That was probably the most far saw it. one. But you just put it out there. So there you go. I just put it out. I put it out there. The world knows. But yeah, so I've been thinking, yeah, I just love a minor cliche. And I just know I can do it so well. Okay. Anyways, what is a hit to me? It's a great question. It's something I've been thinking a lot about. I think a hit to me is just something I really love. Like that's the only thing. That's my only metric at this point. My songs are not, like, I don't expect any of them to hit charts or anything like that, nor is that, Michael. Like, a hit for me is an album that tells a good story. I don't like putting out singles.

It's like ripping chapters out of a book. Like, albums matter so much more to me, which is why I always do a complete album. Like, it's my third album in four years. I just, like, I love that front to end. thing. And I love those songs that maybe less people listen to, but love with more passion, you know? I, those are my, my favorite songs from albums are always the ones that nobody else listens to, but, you know, I feel like it's like my little secret. Um, so yeah. Are you going to write a musical? Oh, yeah. I already, I already have ideas for a musical. I really want to write a musical.

But all my albums are musicals if you really think about it. Yeah. Because they do all have. Do you write an outline before you write the album? Or do you tell it in real time? I tell it in real time and then I write like a prelude and an interlude and make sure that it's like all sewed together like that. And then I go in and make sure that everything's connected

and there are certain light motifs that come up again and again, like certain sounds that depict certain characters or this kind of like musical code writing that I really enjoy doing. But that makes an album and album. I mean, on a matter of time, I have songs that are vastly different, right? It's a mix of so many different sounds, but they all represent me,

and there are things that link them all together, right? like you'll have, I think the string writing is really what links them together. Like, no matter, you'll have tough luck, which is like the popiest song on the album and like silver lining. I'll just mention the songs that are out now. Very different. But they all have this really dense like cello string writing, which I feel like is my, like, very indicative of my sound.

Like I imagine that when you hear that sound, you know, No, it's a Léves song because of this very dense kind of weird cello style that I have. Yeah, it's funny, it's funny because everyone thinks that they know what the, they know what the audience is, can remember. But reality is also your vocal tone is very specific to you. Yeah, it might be that too. I mean, or my incessant use of two-five ones. That I feel like that might be That's really funny

That might be That's really funny Do you feel like you're your biggest fan Your biggest critic? Both Both Do you listen to your albums? I do

Yeah But I very rarely Listen with a critical eye Yeah Because now you can enjoy it once in time I like listen to my past albums And I'm like never

things never stand out to me where I'm like I should have done that differently I'm quite good at letting go I'm like that's what I made in that moment I can't change that even with this album

like I recorded it months ago now and I'm like that was what I did in the moment and that's there's art in that what is next then

tour tour a lot of touring I'm always writing but yeah tour you said you're 26 you know you've got a long way to go and we'll be doing this interview again I assume in in two years and three more albums come out but what do you see your life being like in 10 years oh gosh um I think it'll be quite similar honestly and I hope it will be quite

similar. I feel like I've hit such a comfortable stride where I'm, where I love the music I make so much. I hope I always love the music I'm making. I'm now getting into this part of my career where I've shown the world who I am a little bit, especially with this album. I feel like I'm filling into the gap of what I hadn't showed in the world yet. So now I'm like, I don't know in the next 10 years. I want to write for a film. I want to write a musical. I want to write instrumental stuff. I want to write like lullabies. I want to write more classical-leaning stuff. I want to do a standards album. Really want to do a standards album. So a mix of those things. And I just want to continue journaling my life through albums. I wish that standard albums were more prevalent. I mean,

it's hard to explain that in other generations, it's easier to define song and record in an era when people would record multiple versions of a song. Right. And now it's such a lost art form to interpret great songs. Yeah. And there aren't even that many genres that do it well. Yeah, it's definitely different.

I mean, it's the age of the songwriter, right? Which I've greatly benefited from. and I'm so excited about. Like, I love that all artists, pretty much all artists now must be songwriters as well. I think we're getting to know the truest version of artists more than ever, which is really cool. But there's an art to covering as well. There's the art to the standards album, right? You know, you say a standards album that sounds very romantic, but you say a cover album and it sounds like a sellout, you know?

It doesn't sound cool. Well, especially because, you know, you could do a standards album where you're doing Miley Cyrus Taylor Swift songs, and it's still like some of those. But that would be a cover album. That would be a cover album. What makes a standard a standard and a cover a cover? I think they're just different words. Fair.

What are your... I've heard such unique modern covers of songs, different takes of songs that I love. Like, there are many songs I listen to from artists that are covers. of other songs. And I don't think they're any worse. I've had songs covered, and they're really cool versions, and they're different. And that always makes me so happy, because even like this Barbara Streisand record I just did, which is a crazy sentence to say.

But we just did a duet of my song letter to my 13-year-old self. And it sounds different, and it was recorded very differently, and there was an arranger involved, an engineer involved, and a producer involved. and a whole band and orchestra, whereas the song, when we recorded it, me and Spencer, I just played guitar and piano and cello and called it a day, like we did it in half a day. And that was so cool and really just reminded me of how,

I don't know, like how the structure of a song is so important and so, like, if you've written a good song, it can be depicted so many ways. But I might be digressing right now, but I think to your question earlier, like between the standard and cover thing, like I have a, I include a standard with every single one of my albums because it's like my little way of introducing a new song to audiences. I mean, an old song, but a new song to their ears. And there are always those moments where people are like, oh, it's a cover, you know. and kind of said with a negative tone. And luckily I have a whole album of self-written songs to back it up,

and I'm like, fine, but it always makes me a little bit sad because I'm like, they're wonderful artists in the history of time. All classical musicians are cover artists, you know, and those are some of my favorite musicians of all time. Doesn't make you any less of a musician. Quick, tell me a few things about these songs, what comes to mind. tell me about how you wrote from the start. I literally wrote it in like 30 minutes sitting on my couch

and I thought it was kind of like a stupid song and I had this which it's always the stupid song right. It's always the kind of dumb one but I was just thinking about how you know it felt like in high school to like have a crush on someone and it not be reciprocated and I just... It's so crazy. Why is it always the song that? I mean, I feel like I spend

weeks writing songs to really tighten them up and then it's the song that takes you no 30 minutes on your couch. I know. I think audiences can tell when something's strained. But then some songs are strained and it's fine because they're, you know, you can tell they're really well thought out and they're beautiful and arranged to perfection. But maybe that's not the song that everybody loves and maybe it's not the song that you listen to again and again and again. Maybe there's an air of like, I don't know, I don't want to say imperfection because I actually don't think they're imperfect, but there's like a air of, there's like a carefree breeze to the songs that come out quickly that are addictive and feel easy and worth listening to again, again, again.

Tell me about falling behind. Same thing. I wrote it in like all the Basanova songs I like write in a very short window of time. Those come the easiest to me, which is why I try not to do it too much, although I really want to do like a full Bostonova album sometime. I mean, you have time to do all these things. I think that's what makes a great. I want to do all of it. The only thing you didn't say is a Christmas album.

But other than that goes without saying. That goes without saying half of a Christmas album out already. Look, I really appreciate you doing this podcast at this point. I know that there's, you know, this, first of all, we didn't, we didn't really talk about lover girl. I think that song is so good. And it came out at a really good time. I'm excited to see.

you know that being the song in the summer um i think you should you know it's just so cool to to meet people where you're at right now because i know that this conversation in five years can be like how crazy was that if you're already playing hollywood bowl and i don't know i already feel like my life is like so crazy like i could retire now i'm not going to but i'm like but you can already feel like I am. Life is crazy. Keep doing it. Keep putting out good music.

We really appreciate you. Thank you. Thanks for having me. We hope you enjoyed this episode. It was produced by me and Joe London in association with Mega House Music Group. If you like this episode, go give us a rating at wherever you listen to your podcast

and make sure to follow us at And The Writer is on all your socials. We'll see you next week.