And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 22: Songwriters Hall of Fame: The Art of Collaboration: Songwriters & Music Publishers Making Music & History Together

Episode Date: June 26, 2017

For ATWI’s Season One Finale, we have a very special episode. Last October, Ross moderated a panel discussion presented by the Songwriters Hall of Fame, in association with the Los Angeles-based GRAMMY Museum titled - The Art Of Collaboration: Songwriters & Music Publishers Making Music & History Together. The conversation, which features three of today’s most decorated songwriters and their respective publishers, dives deep into the personal and professional relationships between artist and music publisher. Featuring writers Dan Wilson (Semisonic, Adele, Dixie Chicks), Jack Antonoff (fun., Bleachers, Taylor Swift), and Bonnie McKee (Katy Perry, Britney Spears, Bonnie McKee), and their publishers Kenny MacPherson (Big Deal Music), Jennifer Knoepfle (Sony/ATV Publishing), and Scott Cutler (Pulse Music Group), this episode is one you won’t want to miss. Live from the Clive Davis Theatre at the Grammy Museum in Los Angeles, And The Writer Is… featuring the Songwriters Hall of Fame! © 2017 And The Writer Is, LLC, Songwriters Hall of Fame, Inc. and The Grammy Museum at L.A. Live ® Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey guys, this is, and the writer is. And I'm your host, Ross Golan. I've written with hundreds of writers and artists over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life and the industry, politics, composition, whatever. If you ask me, songwriters are some of the most worldly and intelligent people I've ever come across. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs. And most importantly, who the people are who write songs.

the songs. Now I'm co-producing this with my friend Joe London, who is nominated for a Grammy earlier this year for Best Country Song. He makes us sound like angels. If you want to listen to the songs we discuss in this podcast, go to Spotify and look up our playlist and The Writer Is or go to our website www.com. Oh, and if you enjoy this podcast, please rate us on iTunes or whatever your preferred podcast listening site is. Today we have a very special and somewhat different episode of Anne the Writer is. A few months ago, I moderated a panel for the Songwriter Hall of Fame titled The Art of Collaboration, songwriters and music publishers making music and history together.

If you're not familiar with the Songwriters Hall of Fame, they're an organization dedicated to shining a spotlight on the accomplishments of songwriters who provided us with the words and music that formed the soundtrack of our lives. Each year, they induct a slate of songwriters voted on by their membership in recognition of that year's most important works and accomplishments. Being inducted to the Songwriter Hall of Fame is truly an honor. Out of the thousands of successful songwriters of our era, there are currently only 400 that have been inducted.

The Hall of Fame not only celebrates these established songwriters, but is also devoted to the development of new songwriting talent through workshops, showcases, and sky. If you're a songwriter or music industry professional, you should definitely join the Songwriters Hall of Fame. They sponsor great year-round workshops, showcases, scholarships, and other initiatives like this special event that we recorded for this program. Go to songhall.org to learn more and sign up to join. Now let me set the scene for you.

On an evening last October to a packed house in the Clive Davis Theater at the Grammy Museum in Los Angeles, a panel consisting of three of today's illustrily. and award-winning songwriters and their respective publishers shared stories about their personal and professional relationships. That included Jack Antonoff and his publisher, Jen Canoful. That included Dan Wilson and his publisher, Kenny McPherson, and Bonnie McKee and her publisher, Scott Cutler. Finally, I want to thank the Songwriter Hall of Fame president and CEO, Linda Moran, and Hall committee members Barbara Kane, Mary Jo Manella, Casey Robinson, Kathy Spanberger, Rebecca Alperin, Tom DeSavia, and Donna Kassain for putting this very special event together.

So without further ado, recorded live from the Songwriters Hall of Fame, here is, and The Writer is. Welcome to the Art of Collaboration panel. It's presented by the Songwriters Hall of Fame and the Grammy Museum. And I am your host, Ross Golan from the podcast, and the writer is. Our first writer and frontman has crafted number one songs both as an artist and a writer. In 1998, his band topped the Modern Rock Chart. In 2007, he won a Grammy for Song of the Year.

And in 2012, as a producer, he won a Grammy for her album of the year. He's the writer that record labels go to when they need that timeless song. From Minneapolis, Minnesota, this Harvard graduate is not just a musician. he's the industry's most outstanding calligrapher. That's true? That's true. And the writer is, one of my favorite humans, Dan Wilson. Next to Dan is his publisher,

who has been his publisher since 1994. In that time, the two have moved from Warner Chapel, where they shared Grammy-nominated closing time by Dan's band, Semi-Sonic, then to Chrysler's music, where they shared Grammy winners Not Ready to Make Nice by the Dixie Chicks

and Adele's number one record Someone like you and most recently they've moved to his company with that he co-founded Big Deal Music This man left Scotland before Brexit was cool and the publisher is one of the industry's nicest

Kenny McPherson Our second writer has not only developed her own artist's career but has been instrumental in the development of many others' artists' careers. She's written 10 number one songs and has received a Grammy nomination for Song of the Year. She's written with the Titans in the music industry because her lyrics are unmatched. From the Pacific Northwest, this writer's ambition is enviable and undeniable. And the writer is the only person I've ever written a song with in the Nashville's Delta Lounge, Bonnie McKee.

Now the man next to her has been next to her since the beginning. He created Pulse Recording in 2007 and signed Bonnie shortly after. They've enjoyed some of the biggest songs ever on Top 40 radio, including California Girls, Teenage Dream, Last Friday Night, Part of Me, Wide Awake, Roar, and Dynamite. Now, he's different than most publishers because he was a hit writer first. He's also Grammy nominated and wrote Natalie Mbrugia's Torn, which was number one for 14 weeks. If you ever need a straight answer, this guy will tell you how it is. And the publisher is Scott Cutler. Our third writer is a brand.

As a frontman, he scored a number one song on alternative radio. As a lead guitarist and co-writer, he crafted one of the iconic albums of the last 10 years. And as a writer-producer, he's won Grammy Awards and received two Golden Globe nominations. From New Jersey, this entrepreneur is philanthropic, socially conscious, and most importantly, funny. I mean, he hosts a telethon. That's true. And the writer is someone who still owes me the fun CD, my friend Jack Antonoff. His publisher has followed him since his first notable band, Steel Train.

She was a fan of fun since Aim and Ignite, the album before the one Jack O'S me. Since Jack and her have been together, they've celebrated Grammys with Jack as an artist, but also have had hits like Brave for Sarah Borellis and Out of the Woods for Taylor Swift. If the courting phase of a publisher-writer relationship is an indication of how their working relationship will be, then this publisher proves she'll do anything for her writers. And the publisher is Jen Knoffle. And that's it. I'm just kidding Alright so

Just to clarify The first time I wrote with Jack Was in a small room at Warner Chapel Right after Glee's version of We Are Young And before the Chevy spot In the Super Bowl of the band doing it So I hadn't heard the band's version yet So my question is

As a publisher and a writer How does a song go from the studio To all of a sudden Glee and Chevy before it's ever really been released on an album. How did that happen? That happened because I guess John Janick, who was A&R in the record, just played it for, well, I guess that happens specifically. It's not a good story.

You just played it for someone. But the interesting story, which is what you're getting at, is how does it happen, which is someone hears a song and they think, oh, this would work for this. because I think that people who in film and television know from the industry who just fires out a million songs and who actually thinks and is like this could work and so he heard that song and he wasn't like just like sending everything to glee he was like oh this actually sounds like a

you know the melody is very you know would work for glee and lots of people harmonizing with it etc so it was and I think that what you're getting at is how you get those results and it's when things are specific and pointed this would work for this. Sometimes you might hear a song that would be great in this type of movie or if someone's going to make another movie like Drive. There's music for that. There's music for Fast and Furious.

There's music for cartoons. So you're just thinking about it. He thought about that. He was like, this is a good idea. When Glee happened. Actually, the untold story about that song is that Kanye and Jay-Z had it. No one knows that. It never got discussed. But go back to when it was written.

Where are you when you're writing this? So fun was, to bring Jen into it, fun was like an indie band that, you know, a couple hundred people would come see. And so we thought we were doing great and big publishers. I thought you were doing great. Yeah, totally, but we were not getting sync, selling records. There was no money involved.

To you was that successful? Huge. I mean, have you, were, were you, had it gone on that path. Oh, yeah, I thought Wilco was the biggest band in the world. Yeah. I thought Spoon was the biggest band in the world. And I thought anything on the radio was so, I thought I was too old by the time.

I'm musically or Just in general I thought I had this antiquated view of the radio that it was for like 19 year old

goys Yeah I'm the first Yeah I was the first Jew to be on any radio Definitely the first Jew is an alternative

Number one The first you to be on the stage You're the second Right So that's actually just a really quick interesting story. So the band was totally unacquainted with anything mainstream. We all were. Jeff Basker was producing the record.

We got his information because we loved Dark Fantasy. The Kanye record. He agreed to do it for very little money. He took the demo of We were young. He played it for Kanye, who was making Watch the Throne at the time. We didn't know any famous people. We didn't have anything to do with this. Kanye said, this is great.

I'm going to put it on Watch the Throne. And then we were like, oh, my God, this is crazy. And then we had this. Would it have said, like, featuring fun? We don't know. It didn't matter. I still actually have never heard it. The only thing I've ever heard about is someone told me who heard it.

Like somewhere, somewhere at Rock Nation said that Jay-Z said, I'm the king of Coachella in his verse. I don't know. You should get it and you should leak that. I would love to, I mean, I don't know if I wouldn't do that. But so we thought... You should get it and then you should put it out legally. It's a good idea.

It kind of is so crazy that part of the story. No one knows that. Literally, like, they almost gave it away. We thought, well, when... Because I heard Jay Z said it was too pop. minute. Exactly. It was on watch thrown and they took it off. And we were devastated. We were like, our career is over. And actually ended up being the best thing, but it never had a flirtation with mainstream. So the truth before the glee thing was, and what can happen a lot of times at labels and

publishers is someone will notice a song, like a famous artist, and then everyone will notice a song. I'm having a situation like that right now. You know how it is. You're like, this song's amazing and no one gives a shit. And then like some big artists is like this song's amazing and then everyone else cares. So John Janick and Atlantic, they always believe in the song, but that was a big moment for other people. Like, hey, Kanye and Jay-Z like it, you should put it on Glee. So it goes on Glee and it's maybe a number one song on Billboard. Wasn't it as a, or Glee, or was it just number...

The Glee version was number one on iTunes. The Glee version went number one on iTunes. Before the fun version, right? Yes. So did that, did that scare you or did that encourage you as an artist to know that the song's already a hit or was it? It was all icing on the cake. None of it was even, I was so uninvolved in the world that a lot of us live in now where we think about if songs are going to be hits.

We think about if they'll stay hits, if they'll connect. It was so pure. We just couldn't believe any of it was happening. So when you were done with the song, at that point, the label, the label was a part of it once you were finished with We Are Young, correct? I didn't think the song was it hit because I thought the radio was dumber than it actually is. It's not that dumb. Right, of course. The radio's, that's part of what all of us on stage have to do is not believe people in the radio are dumb.

When I was not involved with it, I just brushed it off like that's where crap goes and that's not true. So I thought it was a smart song and I was like, it'll never work. And so actually that being my first break or whatever, it was a wonderful lesson because it's a weird song in many ways. It's great though. I like that song. Bonnie. Yes. You've had a lot of songs in the Super Bowl.

you're sort of responsible for for left shark so I guess you know my question is when you see a song being performed at the Super Bowl and you have I mean it's the half time you have multiple songs being played

are you watching and are you thinking I should have picked that other lyric or are you sitting there actually thinking about the composition at all and vice versa when you're creating it, are you thinking that when I write the words roar, that Katie's going to be like riding a paper mache horse in, you know. I believe it was a lion, but.

Or it's a lion. I don't know. I guess it would make sense because it's roar and not nay. Right? They don't teach you that at USC, apparently. I graduated early, but I never tell people my GPA. You know, it's that thing. Anyway, so no, seriously, though, when you're watching your songs on, you know, in the Super Bowl,

are you watching it, though, and actually thinking of the process and how you wrote it? Yeah, I do. Every time I hear the songs that we wrote, most of my hits have been with Katie Perry. We're a great team, so it's not like I did it all myself. She's incredible in her own right. But, yeah, there were things that we fought over. We fought like sisters, and sometimes we yelled at each other, and sometimes we cried, and sometimes we wanted to punch each other.

But we're a great team and we challenge each other. And so there were moments where I let her win or she let me win. And every time I hear the song, I think about those moments. And the things that I didn't like that made it where I was like, oh, I wish we had changed this or whatever, become validated when it's a hit where I'm like, she was right. Obviously, she was right. Bonnie's relentless, though, about lyrics.

And I've watched her do this for years. every line is worked over thought about rewritten, studied you know. It's exhausting. It is exhausting. I mean I was going to ask for you too. Is it when you know at being a writer

who turned publisher yeah. Does it you know when you're when she who you when you hear a song that she sends you are you do you think of it compositionally or do you think of it as this is a song that my writer sent me?

Is it okay? Can you listen to it as a fan? Yeah, I think I'm a fan at this point. I think the composition brain left me at one point, and I just listen. But with Bonnie in particular, Bonnie was the first person we signed to Pulse, so she was the first time I ever switched my role.

And she came in with a ballad. She wrote herself that was expansive and epic, and I didn't know this. When was that? This was 2008 or whatever. Was that after your first record deal then? That was after, okay. So the Katie Perry couplet, every line, that wasn't, I had no idea that was coming.

Sure. I didn't know how to do that yet. No. I taught her how to do it. Yeah. He taught me everything, I know. He said every publisher. No, no.

Kidding, guys. Y'all are cool. Go ahead. Yeah, I didn't know how to do that yet. I was just a baby songwriter, just a baby when Scott discovered me. And thank you for taking a chance on me, by the way, because I had a failed record deal under my belt, and I wrote all those songs because they were 100%ers.

So I didn't know how to collaborate. I was just, it's just a lot of ego, whereas I wanted to say that I wrote everything myself. But now I can't even fathom writing something by myself. It frightens me because I don't trust myself. I feel like I need another brain in the room to bounce off of and tell me if I'm on the right track. I'm so broke.

broken. And so, and I'm so, so grateful. Actually, I met you back when I made my first album. And you introduced yourself, he introduced himself to me backstage like I didn't know who he was. But back in the day, before, when I made my first album, I was unpublished because I was like, well, I over everything myself, and I want to own everything myself, and I don't need a publisher and whatever. And I so wish that I had signed a publishing deal back then, because you were coming around and you were such a big fan and you were so cool to me and I just was like publishing like who's gonna I just should keep everything for myself but publishers are your friends they help you they introduce you to people they nurture you and um if I hadn't gotten a publishing

deal I wouldn't be the song right I am today I'm really grateful to have learned everything that I did people have this idea like you don't sell your publishing like no one sells their publishing they make a decent deal where you get a partner for a period of time I think it must have been the Beatles right where that started that rumor didn't they like sell I think it was Beethoven Probably That's like people who One of the first publishing deals ever done

You're being serious Not a bit Wow Because I'm that old I remember Fair enough But like my parents Who knew nothing about the music industry Whatever you do

Don't sell your publishing It's like this concept Where it's like Or then then don't give away A very small piece for a lot of help And just enjoy Yeah money Support all of it

no one really sells their publishing. I say that every day. Yeah. Like, have you ever bought someone's entire publishing? He's alive? No, and I definitely didn't do that with you. We had, we have a pretty... No, I sold it all.

I would have done. He sold it for... But I think that's a real thing that, you know, as a student at USC, one of the things, they teach you the value of publishing. So then you put a value to something that hasn't created any revenue yet. So then you feel like,

like, well, what am I sell? I can't sell half my publishing or all my publishing because you don't, you're sort of taught that that has the value. But in reality, you know, none of the writers are on this stage without their publishers and their publishers really had a lot to do with, which we'll get to. Well, I must say that I wasn't able to sign Bonnie back when she had her first record deal, but my wife did get to take the most beautiful pictures of her. as an artist, which I get to see still on a monthly basis because they're in my wife's portfolio.

And you photograph beautifully. So I didn't get to sign your publishing. I'm delighted that Scott did. But I still get to look at you and go, why the fuck? I'm sorry, I didn't know yet how valuable that would be. Kenny, being that unlike Scott, you don't write music. How did you know in 1994 when you meet, you know, Dan who's in a band in the Midwest, how do you know that that guy? I mean, you're in Warner Chapel, probably where were you in London or you were in New York?

So how did you take, why did you take a risk on this guy from the Midwest? You know, what was it that he was showing you? Well, I had sort of just moved to New York and started my first corporate publishing job with Warner Chapel. I was on the road for many years and in management. And, well, part of a managing company started a publishing company. And the band I worked with was Super Tramp. And we had a deal with A&M Records.

And I heard about Dan when he and his brother Matt had tripped Shakespeare. And so I was aware of Dan then and thought they were, I mean, Tripp Shakespeare was a good name, you know. I mean, it was trippy and then he's a Harvard man. And as I went to the University of Glasgow Side Streets, I thought I might learn something from meaning a Harvard man. Right. And I have, I have. But, you know, I just, I, you know, because I come from management, and really I'm a failed musician. I tried and it just wasn't in my gene that I was better at organizing the gigs than singing them

and learned that very quickly. So I've always just loved the sort of the mystery of songwriting. I'm fascinated by how songwriters create and I love the fact that there's no creative rulebook and it just turns me on and it still turns me on. I mean, so I just, I just with Dan I heard

semisonic's demos I I worked with a gentleman John Tita who I'd hired to who was a musician and spoke that language better than me and I've actually been successful partially because I've had good taste in I think in people that work with me be it

John Tita David Stam Casey Robeson I mean who just our musicians have a feel a sensitivity and part of my job is to help guide them through the management of that process and how that works. But I'm a fan. So when I heard Semi-Sonic's demos and then when they were making the record, it just turned me on.

You know, there was something very Beatles-esque, which obviously growing up with the Beatles I loved. But I just loved Dan's voice. He's guitar playing, his lyrical sense. It just, I want to go see it. I wanted, you know, it just was. And then I met him and it's been a 22 year relationship where we've followed each other around and stuck together. And I think that's probably the best thing that you can have as a collaboration between an artist and, you know, I would say we are creative people obviously. But it's been a journey for both of us and it's stimulating and still vibrant and exciting. We've become personal friends and our families are friends. And it's just, it's a joy. Did, so had you heard closing time in those demos?

No, that was, no, closing time hadn't been written in 1994. It may have been written in Dan's brain, but he never, he never, he never said that. When, when was it written? Maybe 97 or 96, early, early 97 or late 96. So when you're writing that, and I know the backstress, but if you could share the backstory of closing time a little bit, why did you write closing time? For several reasons at the same time, there was a song on Semi-Sonic's first album called If I Run, which I thought was an amazing song. And people didn't really notice it. And I asked a friend of mine, who was a smart guy, what could I do with that?

Like, just my disappointment that no one noticed this great song. And he said, just write it again. I was like, okay, that's cool. So that's thing one. Second thing was I had been living in bars for like seven years essentially because Trip Shakespeare had been on the road for 100 to 200 nights a year for all that time.

So closing time was like the dominant metaphor of my life at that point. And then my wife and I were expecting a child and because I didn't want to bum my band out with a song that was obviously about a kid being born, which would have bummed them out a lot because they were rock musicians and they don't want you sentimentally singing about having a baby.

I hid the story of being born in the metaphor of being kicked out of a bar. I mean, it's crazy. And I rewrote my other song if I run and blah, blah. And it ends up being played in every bar. I mean, there's one thing when you write a song that's a metaphor. and then it actually becomes the song that people play at the end of the night is pretty nuts.

My observation is that, I mean, Jack is right about not underestimating people's intelligence, but when people group together in large groups, they don't understand metaphors. Once there's a thousand people, that group, each individual might understand a metaphor over coffee, but those thousand people as a group do not understand a metaphor, so it's all very literal.

I guess speaking of literal, you know, and it's also a political year so this is kind of interesting for this song but not ready to... This isn't an awesome lead-in, by the way. Whatever you're about to do is super good. I'm the best. Okay, so

in a political year like this you know, not ready to make nice which came out in 2007 wins song of the year, record of the year, a duo of the year, I don't know, everything of the year. And it's a song for those of you guys who don't know it

it was the lead singer Natalie Maine from Dixie Chicks she said in a concert we're ashamed that the president of the United States is from Texas and all country radio stations banned that band so they became the biggest band in the world they were the biggest band in country and then they were just

off radio overnight because they said something that's true. So when she approached you with this concept, is that how that happened? I mean, how does somebody say to you, hey, I want to go in and write the song that says, fuck you to radio, which is really hard to do. You know, it's hard to go. And it's hard when we talk about, we grew up all thinking, oh, radio is where those songs go.

And then once you live in the world, you realize how hard it is to get a song on radio, how hard it is to get a song to react on radio and then to go to all the radio programmers and say this isn't an apology is a really hard song or is it an apology? No, well

when I got together with the Dixie Chicks it was kind of a blind date that Rick Rubin, their producer, put together. He and I were working on a couple things and he introduced me to the chicks and obviously I'd known a lot about their political

travails at that time. But when I got together with them, they played me a bunch of their songs, and I think sometimes we are not super objective about our own work. They played me several of their songs that obliquely mentioned their troubles with the Bush administration. And they said, and it was fun for me to just hear their works in progress. And then they, you know, afterwards they said, we don't really want to like delve into it anymore in our songs because we've gone into it too much already.

And I said, no, actually, no one's going to notice these, the references to their political struggle. They were just a little too subtle for people to really notice. And I kind of told them that we needed to write something that was like really blatant. And then after some discussion with them, which was really pretty fruitful and which is kind of told in that movie, maybe at length, I won't go into that. the next morning I had a lot of espresso. He still has a lot of espresso in the morning.

This is not like special to that. So, and then I thought of this phrase not ready to make nice, which is something that my Midwestern, my prairie family might say. So I don't think of it as really particularly country thing to say. Invisioning your prairie family is awesome. My prairie family? Like little prairie dogs, yeah.

You know, Ross, funny that story too. You know, I'd be obviously working with Dan for a long time then, and I was friends with the Dixie Chicks manager, Simon. And for three years before Dan got to get to go to this year, I'd been going to Simon for three years. This is a frustration I'm sure Jen and Scott related. For three years, I've been telling him, you have to get the Dixie Chicks to meet Dan Wilson and write with Dan Wilson.

You have to, I mean, like a broken record. And it was like, yeah, Yeah, yeah, Kenny, right. Yeah, what's he doing? What's doing? And I go, and then of course, Dan's working with Rick. Rick tells the chicks, oh, you got to meet Dan Wilson. Overnight it happens. And I go to Simon and say, you know.

You said it's a podcast, so I was trying to bleak myself. I didn't know if it was HBO. Fuck you, Simon. sometimes that sometimes that approach of the publisher like banging on doors actually works I mean you made like when

when I wrote with Dirk's Bentley for the first time that was you banging on doors and that was a I mean it wasn't a crazy stretch but it was certainly not the first thing I was delighted did did it scare you when

that song came out and there was there was a lot of controversy attached to that song And my question is, did it scare you because one of the things I want to talk about next is sort of a big part of being a songwriter is branding you as a songwriter. You know, the way we, people tend to come to us for certain types of songs or certain types of projects. And so when you have a writer that comes out with a song that's controversial, it's amazing, was there a fear that people like, I guess Dirk's Bentley is the kind of guy that would want to write with? that writer. But did it, did it scare you at all that the brand of, of Dan would change in any way? No, not at all. I mean, maybe there's certain other artist, writers, I don't know, the Dixie Chick's biggest fan, Toby Keith, he might not want to get together with Dan,

but I wouldn't discount it. No, I think that's the, one of the fascinating things. And I think songwriters do need to challenge and do need to protest and do need to bring awareness to situations and I think we cannot live in fear and we should be courageous and stand next to them. Yeah.

I did kind of chill out my visits to Nashville for five years. It actually made people kind of not in country not want to write with me. It did and my attitude to them was fuck you. I mean because It's going to turn around.

There was plenty of other things. And, I mean, it's a brilliant song. They're fantastic musicians and songwriters and pivotal artists. And, you know, you just got to take it on the chin and keep going. Well, so the idea of branding a writer is important. And the thing I want to bring up to Scott and Bonnie is, you know, a lot of your relationship has been how do you brand Bonnie as an artist versus a writer? you know and and i think that that's been i guess i want to know how you do that how how you decide

to write certain things as a writer versus as as an artist um you know and before you answer that you know i think you know in my opinion as a writer something like teenage dream is you know is probably the best calling card any writer could have you know and i think that really brands you as a as a writer and my question is how do you differentiate yourself and maybe you could tell the story of teenage dream and how you put yourself in that. It's actually, it's hard to differentiate because I have a pretty specific style of writing, which Scott has called couplets, which I had never heard before. But I guess that is kind of what I do. Matching little lines, like perfectly symmetrical little metaphors and things. And it's something that I've struggled with, honestly,

because my, obviously everything that I did with Katie was co-written and there's a lot of Katie in there. And but I, teenage dream now. Okay, teenage dream now. Get on to it. Okay, teenage dream. I didn't finish high school. I was kicked out of high school in the ninth grade. And I was, so I missed out on prom and I missed out on football games and I missed out on all of that fun shit you see in the movies.

And so I always kind of had an unhealthy obsession with it. And so before I met Katie, in my own work, I had kind of an on-running theme of teenage, adolescent turmoil and new love. And I feel like I had been trying to write that song my whole life. And when I was put in a room with Katie Perry, Max Martin, Dr. Luke, Benny Blanco, I had the right tools to do that. that. And so originally, we wrote that song front to back five different times, five different versions of that song existed that were not teenage dream. Same title or different titles?

Different titles. Completely different lyrics. Like completely different concepts. The melodies were the same because Max Martin is the Swedish genius that wrote most of the melody. And so we knew that there was something magical there and the track was right and there was magic. We knew it. But we were just beating our head against against the walls and um and we wrote the first version was like kind of had that uh the young thing where you know we were talking about eating ice cream for breakfast and you know trying to stay forever young was kind of the underlying theme but it felt too young and then and then we did something that was like try me on that was very like dressy open my love like some kind of stupid sex metaphor

and with like shopping it was very cheap it was very i'm not proud of it um And we just kept writing and writing. And then finally we kind of had to take a break from it. It was like a month straight, like every day going in, rewriting this fucking song. And then we took a break from it for a second. And I just like, I remember sitting with Benny Blanco. And he was like, it's just not cool.

I was like, I know it's got to be cooler. He was like, check out this thing. There's this band called The Teenagers. And they had a song. It's like some weird French band. There's not even any singing. It's just them talking. And it was a couple of,

French kids talking like American Valley girls. They're like, oh my God. So like I went to the mall and like you would not believe like what she was wearing and like it was like some completely random thing. And I just remember listening to it and being like, yeah, this is like this is my shit. This is what I care about. This is what inspires me. And I thought about the word teenager and how much you can say with just one word. Like you hear the word teenager and it just paints a whole picture and it's very evocative. And I had these syllables. I had to fill in these syllables.

And so I ended up with Teenage Dream. And then once I had the title, I was like, this is it. I felt in my gut. I knew it was it. I drove up to Santa Barbara and met up with Katie and Max and everybody. And I was like, guys, I think I got it. And they were like, we don't want to hear it.

Because we had put together like an all right chorus. And they were like, just work on the verses. We don't want to hear it. And I was like, no, no, I swear. So knowing that I have. had this ace in my pocket. I was like, I'm just going to write the verses to match this title because I know it's right. So Katie and I went

in and I told her and she liked it. But we always had to run everything by Max and Luke. They were like the good cop, bad cop. And they had to approve it and they'd often send us back with our tail between our legs. And so...

It was the bad cop. Yeah, I know, I know. Oh boy. Sorry. Yeah, there it is. I love bits. Right. No comment. That's my Donald Trump.

Wrong. So anyway, no comment. So we wrote these verses and then when I finally came in and I was like, okay, listen, check it out. Teenage Dream. You make me feel like I'm living a teenage dream. And then Max looked at me and was like, well, why didn't you say so? I was like, oh my God. That song's incredibly you, though.

I mean, of all. It sounds so belabored, but it was, it sounds like you writing a song in five seconds to me. Thank you. That's your song, an American girl are like siblings. Yeah, definitely. I feel like American girl was the sister song to. You feel that way too? Yeah, definitely.

Yeah. Here's a compliment. When I was in, I just went to a bachelor party with Max. He wasn't getting married. It was somebody else. But we were talking about songs that, you know, favorite songs. that people have written and he says that that's his favorite song

that he's ever written. And considering like his catalog that's a, that's a perfect. Wow, that's really amazing to hear Max Martin is like my idol. And I still like,

even after working with him for years and years and, you know, having all the success with him, I still am starstruck every time I'm in a room with him. And I feel like I learn something every time I write with him.

So I'm really blessed and grateful to have been able to come up under him and Luke. You know, I learned a lot from Luke. Like, he was really, really hard on me. And I'm glad. I'm really grateful for that, you know. Scott, how do you, how do you encourage the different parts of a writer like Bonnie where she's doing the artist, pursuing being an artist, pursuing being a writer? Of what points do you say, hey, now you got to go in and do that kind of song or you should do the, I mean, do you have any.

First of all, that's, I mean, can you imagine me telling her what to do? Right. I guess that's fair. That's not how. works. For me it's I just try to be encouraging. I think writing music is a magical

experience. Nobody up here really knows exactly how the ideas come, when they come. I listen to Beatles songs. They seem like they were written by God. I don't know how they could have been written. And I still look at it that way. So

when I heard American girl, I just you know, this is it. This is the song. I mean, the only suggestion I had was shorten, like, let's shorten up the second verse, which drove her crazy, because she had these couplets. I had a line about cars blowing up that I really wanted to shrink.

And that took days, by the way. There was a line about, it was like something about I want to blow up a car because I can do whatever the fuck I want, because it's America. It was like a very American line. It was like Team America. Yeah. But, yeah, I don't

get in there. I don't have the answer. I don't break it down. I just listen like a fan. And I think that was one of the very few suggestions I had in our whole life together. Like make the second verse shorter. I don't know. Whatever the fuck that means. All right.

That's a note. That's a good note, right? Speed it up. But yeah. And then with her artist thing versus her writing thing, it's just, I think the only thing I ever said to her was just live a creative life every day. Right? some songs,

the right one will come in the right day. That's all you can really do is just show up and see what happens. And it used to be when I first started writing, I would come in, always prepared and be like, okay, I have to have a title ready. I have to... Nashville, by the way. Yeah. Be prepared. Yeah.

It's Nashville and it helps in the community that she's talking about in Santa Barbara that those writers, you only have so many opportunities with those writers. And, you know, publishers' jobs, if they're good, if they're, you know, they're introducing you to situations and you walk in there and you have to write the song.

So it helps to be really pretty. It helps to have something. And I love titles. Like I'm always, the first question is always like, what's it called? Yeah. And I wish I had come up with out of the woods. It's that thing where when people say, you know, there are all these people who have songs where the title's not in the chorus or the title's not, and they think they're

being artistic by picking some random thing. Don't do that. Don't do that. The first way of not getting your song cut. That's funny. It actually happened to me. I had a number one with Cheryl Cole in the UK. And the chorus was very straight ahead. And it was like, I don't care.

And it feels so fucking good to say, I don't care, whatever. I was like, I can't call it, I don't care. And so my first line of the song was waking up diagonal. And I was like, way better title. Big title. But they changed it to I don't care. And I was pissed. I was so mad.

I mean, think of it if it was, you know, I took a pill in Abiza. Number one song, if it's like, sad song, it's like, kill yourself. Yeah, exactly. Terrible. That was really aggressive. So, you know, Jack, one of the things that you have that's unique is that when I was saying in the intro that you have a brand as a writer, I mean that if I look at Brave and Out of the Woods and Better and a lot of these records, I feel like I know you as a writer in a really intimate way.

I think that it's really hard to do. And I guess my question is like, how does, let's talk about Out of the Woods. When, how did Taylor find you? and was she what did she how did that come about how does she find you as as somebody who had done other songs did she

did she know bleachers did she know steel train it sounds like a jack record with Taylor apologies to Jason Evan again who's in the audience who I told this this story and the weird story too today so like he's to hear him twice he's a friend of the podcast

he's been interviewed wherever it is we like you Jason it was a weird one because you know Do you know the Tegan and Sarah record Heartthrob? So there's a song called How Come You Don't Want Me, which I did with them, which wasn't a single. It wasn't even really like a fan favorite. It was a favorite for us.

It was a great song, in my opinion. Yeah, it was. It was just a track on a record. It was single or not. Like, you know, because on albums, there's hit singles sometimes. There's fan favorites. It wasn't bad. It just, it was one of the songs. I was very, very proud of it.

It was modeled after only you. No, Mr. Blue by Yaz. that was sort of the sonic DNA of it. So she heard that song and I think you'd been knocking at that door. Yes, we'd be knocking on the Taylor door. That's actually, to your point, like what you had talked about earlier, I think it's interesting when you talk about Jack as a brand or Jack from being an artist and how that sort of helped or heard or whatever.

But I think, you know, he is able to put himself in situations that I'm just, I'm not going to be backstage at the Grammys, you know, mingling with other artists. And I think we tried, I mean, we published Taylor and, you know, we sort of were like pretty laser focused on getting him with Taylor because we knew that it would be this amazing explosive thing. But we, we didn't get very far. I mean, we sort of get to the right places. Who do you contact?

You don't, like, call Taylor and say, hey. No, no. I mean, yeah, we talked to Troy, who actually signed Taylor, who's the head of our Nashville office, who's close to her. and, you know, her manager, and, you know, and it was all very positive, you know, but what's great about someone like Taylor and someone like Jack is, like, they have their own ideas,

and they're very, you know, they have them, and sometimes that's actually a better thing. So, so in this sense, you guys actually sort of... Yeah, so she, we had met it at things. Things. And I was, you know, we were, I was, you know, she was aware of stuff I was doing and whatever, thought it was cool.

We just got to know it, you know, you meet people at, things like school or whatever it's same feeling um and so i did that tegan sarah song and that was before i started bleacher so that song was the beginning of a phase for me that lasted probably like two years which was very rooted in uh the feeling from john hugh's movies yeah um it was rooted in this idea uh Vince Clark who actually ended up getting to work with a bunch uh started Depeche mode and yes and erasure and i kind of thought well this is sort of like he he 30 years ago invented pop radio it just sounded better then. Why did it sound better?

Because, well, he wasn't using soft sense. He was using the old stuff that you can't, that's harder to use. And I thought, wow, you know, Depeche Mode was so, from what I've heard, cutting edge and wild when they were out. And now that Depeche Mode ARP is every pop song. Like, how did that happen? And how do I get back to where it came from? And why is it that in the John Hughes movies, those songs, not just because for everyone everyone are just so emotional, make you want to dance and cry. to your point about

the metaphor and how smart people are or are not, my favorite songs closing times as a perfect example, is ones that a million people can get drunk to and one teenager can cry to in bed. Dancing on my own by Robin is probably the best example

of all time. Yeah, it really is. You know, Alicia Keys, sorry, sleeping with a broken heart. You know, so that's the only barometer for me for a song. Was it me? It was the synth. It was fucking horrible.

Yeah. I can't breathe. So that's the biggest thing. How to both those exist at the same time? Any writers, publishers? I mean, that's it, right? Sure. You want both.

And when it happens, those are the biggest, best, most exciting, no one's ashamed to like them. John Hughes' movies, those songs. So I was trying to think about that. I started bleachers that was in that theme. And we just caught each other at a great moment because she heard that Tegan Sarah song. It happened to be her favorite song.

like oh you're the guy who did that and i was like yeah and i have this whole idea about like um just this moment how do you modernize it and then we did a bunch of songs together and it was super easy because it was just sometimes you get references in their production and and uh lyric melody so it was lindrums and it was you know six arps and it was uh mog bass there's specific things that were that dna and it was saying things that were super grand and having these huge choruses like out of the woods where you could just repeat it and sing it over and over. And then verses, Springsteen says the chorus is gospel. The verse is blues. I love that, because the chorus is for everyone. That's, I want to get better. I want to get better. I want to get better. I want to get better.

It could be like, I want to get better at basketball. I want to get better at being less depressed. It could be anything. Everyone wants to get better. If your family was all murdered or if you stub your toe, they don't want to get better. You have that feeling. So then the best example. You are darker than Ross. Yeah, kill yourself. It's good. The biggest inspiration, you know, the band The Mountain Goats?

You've never heard of them? Yeah, I'm not trying to do a thing where I like name an obscure band. Like, I don't think it's cool to, like, it's just they happen to be obscure. They have a song, and the lyric in the chorus is, I'm going to make it through this year if it kills me. That's a great song. Yeah. When I said that, there's not one person in this room who wasn't like, yep, right? I'm going to make it through this year if it kills me.

If they're here, they're a robot. And then the verse is about alcoholism, his stepfather beating him, all these things that I've never experienced, right? But the song means a world to me because that's how I feel. So that's how, are we out of the woods yet? Bravely, I want to see you be brave. The song was about her friend coming out of the closet. I want to get better. Like these songs that I feel very connected to just tying a song up in the chorus and then having the verse be so absurdly personal that no one else could have written it.

Like literally talking... It explains why those... I mean, Jen and I were talking the other day about how your songs maybe more so than anyone that I know managed to seem to fit a lot of different scenes because they're really positive in the course or seemingly positive until you listen and you're like, wow, that's really deep that Brave is actually...

I mean, it was used in a lot of contexts outside of coming out of the closet. It was a Microsoft commercial, you know? Yeah, I want that. I wanted to me forever. I grew up in the night. 90s, probably like you were popular music. You know, when I said all that shit about radio, that was later.

Sure. Early 90s, you know, I turned on the radio and I heard the best songs that have ever been written. Still, you know. Dan was a part of that. It's so cool. But it's amazing. You know, seriously, that moment, it wasn't because I was younger. It was because it was better.

You know, you would hear smashing pumpkins into Snoop Dog on pop radio into Pearl Jam. Yeah. Semi-Sonic, into the Indigo girls were on pop radio. Toad duet Sprocket, Natalie and Brulia. Melissa Etheridge. Like, shit, it made no sense. I actually think we're heading closer towards that

because you see radio like, no one knows what's going on. Well, it's because, I mean, right now there aren't aisles in stores. So, you know, we grew up, we grew up in a place where at least if you go just after closing time in the sort of, sorry Fred Duris, but the Limp Bizkit era. That's when the world died. You know, it's like... No, that's when it got cynical.

It came back. But then it came back. But that's when we split off into indie and pop. That's when... Because you remember, that was the moment. No offense to that kind of music. But I was so personally upset by what was happening in the mainstream

that I adopted this what later turned into strokes culture in the early 2000s of like, fuck it. Like, I'm in an indie band. I hate everything. I'm cynical. I'll never be on the radio.

Major labels are sellouts. Like, I don't know what a publisher is even at this point in my life. You know, and then it sort of came back around. But that, those of us who grew up in this amazing moment, and I think we're a similar age, we have this, like, hope where it's like, oh, the mainstream can be incredible. You know this feeling. That was like, that was the time when Ben Folds would have a huge hit. And it was like, oh, the world is so great.

But it actually didn't last. It didn't. But when it, because a hit. Because CDs were making a lot of money. And so it made sense to homogenize. I think when there's that kind of money, they all. there becomes a feeding frenzy of we need, we need boy bands, we need hard rock, and the aisles become really strict.

And radio becomes really strict. And the art goes away. And it helps that now there's a playlist of just the top 50 songs and whether, I don't know what playlist this is, but if it's let it go, going into one dance or whatever, whatever. The today's hits plays. Well, the funny thing, I spoke to Sunday today, and when you talk about formats, I mean, I grew up listening to BBC radio,

and they would play the Beatles, then Muddy Waters, then, you know, Perry Como, then the stones. And, you know, I mean, it was like, it was very broad and all over the place. And I was saying with playlisting now, and, like, the hope is that, you know, whether it's like if you asked everybody a songwriter up here, you know, with your... your podcast that you're doing, let's make a playlist of the songs that the songwriters

wrote, let's make a playlist of the songs that inspired the writers. And then I spoke to one of the IPs today and they said, yeah, well, the playlisting thing is we still wanted to have some kind of format. And I was really disappointed that they said that. They still want to try and make you as the listener be driven down a lane. And I think that's wrong. I mean, I personally think it's wrong. I think, you know, there's so much great music and diversity. I mean, I mean,

you're putting everybody in a box. And it's boring as fuck. You know, we have a song Broccoli with Drum and Little Yachty. And when I first heard that song, it just made no sense at all to me. Like, some...

What about it made no sense? Well, there's a feature... I hate... I hate five things in a No, there's like a feature in the first verse, and he's not in the first verse, and then he's in the rest of the song. And it's one of those things that a label would never, you know, it happened because it's of the way it is now. They just put it out and let people decide. And now it sounds perfect. That's a song with like four different aisles of the supermarket in one song. Yeah.

And so, right. You know, in a great way. Really well put. It's so good. That's a metaphor. That's exactly what I've been thinking. I get it. They don't get it. But maybe that's what's good about it. Maybe that's what's good about now is that, you know, that song didn't have to get through the major label system in any way. It would never have worked.

It just they put it out. They were brave and threw it out there. People like it. Now the label can get behind it. It's so brave. Yeah. That was their idea. It's so brave. They were listening to Sarah Borellas. But it's creative. I need something. Broccoli. Be brave. Eat broccoli. Like what a great publisher could do or people that around you is

have an actual opinion. That's the sickness of the music business is people with no opinion. The easiest way to keep your job or a label is to have no opinion. But the easiest way to do something great is to have an opinion. You might get fired or you might run the label one day or a publisher. You know, there's so many people that just don't want to go on record because if it works,

they want the credit. And if it doesn't work, they don't want it off them. But it's like you just, artists can't function in writers without opinions. I love it. I'm surrounded by people like Jen and my manager who will say like this is it this is it this sucks this is not and then I have the ability to listen and in my own opinion and it's a culture where people have a thought and they're not just it's a smash you know that is like the most I mean I guess people don't really say that that much anymore but like no but the guy the guy who

still say it still say it it's you know you don't want the ANR guy who likes everything you do you want the guy who likes nothing you do and ask you to keep sending stuff I love Jen because she was interested in fun when it was worthless to a publisher. So that's just a fact of our relationship. Separately from that, I liked you when fun was worthless also. But that's nice because you know, oh, she liked the first record that couldn't have made her money

at her company, couldn't have made her exciting to, like it was just a fan thing. And so I thought, okay, she gets the songs. And then if we can do this together and if we think these songs and this style of work is great and can reach a lot of people, that's awesome. But I mean, how sick it? you experience all the time, people with no opinion.

You know, everyone in the stage has had the experience. My least favorite thing that ever happens in music is when you're playing a new group of people, they're all looking around. And you're like, just someone, say what you think. Just close your eyes. You can love it or hate it. Because it's just for the people.

They like it or they don't. And we try to, this is what's happening on radio streaming, blah. We try to figure everything out. But it's like when you hear a song, do you like it or you don't? Do you want to hear it again? Did you spend $100,000 in two years working on this version of the production?

and you still listen to the demo. Without the demo. It's so easy to say. It's so hard to do. Can you publishers run through that too? Can I ask a question of the publishers? Yeah, yeah. Can I tell a really short story and then ask you?

I would prefer that. Okay. Sorry to Bogart the process, but I just had an interesting drive here with Kenny and my wife. And I got my phone magically hooked up to my car, so it played in the car, which was already amazing. And I played Kenny four new songs, one from today and one from yesterday, and one that I hadn't heard yet from an artist that I'm working with who lives in Oakland, and one from a couple weeks ago.

And like, I'm really prolific, and a lot of us, I'm sure everybody here is really prolific. And we listen to these songs, and I just, when I played Kenny, essentially, the fourth song, I just was like, shit, how do you deal with this? Because it's an onslaught. Like, it can't be, what are you listening to like 25, 30 new songs a day? You know, it's because it's not just me, obviously, like overloading. It's just you there. No, no, I know, I know it is. But you know what I mean? Like, can you guys address that? Just like, how do you deal with the fact that you're listening to like so much stuff? It's the pure volume. Yeah. And like you have so many different writers and each one's sending. I want to listen to my 10 songs. Yeah.

Well, I'm maybe in a different position than maybe some other people, but I've been fortunate that I do have maybe like five key writers that I deal with pretty regularly. So the volume's not too, too crazy, but I think even with five people, that's still too many people. That's still a lot of people. But in some ways, it's kind of good because the songs that you love, they hit you almost immediately. So you kind of, at least for me, like I can kind of know listening through a song like, okay, I like this, but I don't, it's not connecting with me or, you know, and I can kind of move through them that way. And then when I do hear something that I love, I'm like a repeat listener.

I'll listen to it like 50 times, you know, and that's sort of the sign that I am super psyched on something. And you're right, not in that something is a perfect hit, that research is perfectly, but when you do hear a lot of songs or at least, you know, you say this is special, it ends up being special in some way. Yeah. Like there's definitely times when, like, there's been songs that Jack has done to me. Like, Brave's a good example. Like, hearing that song for the first time and it's like, oh, this is, this is like the most special song.

Everything is right about this song. Like, everything works. Everything Sarah's saying works. How she's singing it works. How you guys wrote the melodies. It just, like, it doesn't, it really didn't change. It didn't change one bit. No, yeah.

You know? But you're hearing that on a day when you've listened to like 12 other songs. Yeah. And it's exciting. Because some days you listen to 20 songs and you don't hear anything that's special because it's like it's hard to write a special song. Do you ever like hear a song for the first time when you've heard 20 songs that day? And then like, because I know that I've sent things to people and like I don't get a response or they don't like it.

I'm like, I really feel like there's something special about this. And then I'll send it again. And then like one day someone will be like, this is. is great. And I'm like, well, okay. So your state of mind is going to affect it. So we listen every day. Do you ever like, are you ever like, wow, how did I miss that? Or are you ever like, or something will blow up that you passed on where you're like, oh, I didn't like it. And then it blows up. Or it comes on your random iTunes and you go, fuck, that song's amazing. But also like, so, you know, our company and I'm sure everyone's similar, we have people, I'm surrounded with people that are

you know, I think are experts at different styles of music. So sometimes it'll be somebody who works with me, Maria, Ashley, Markell, Hannah, somebody, Connor will play a song and say, you got to hear this song. Or I'll hear it and go, I think this is fucking great. And I'll ask someone else to listen to it. And we kind of get a little bit of a group. But when we sit in it, we sit every week, twice a week, and listen as a group. And we're just like this.

waiting to hear something just, you know, I mean, we're all inspired by great songs. Yeah, I think, I think Scott, so I think Jen's right too. I mean, we all work with a team of people. And yes, you do miss stuff.

Yes, you get an immediate visceral feeling. And it's part of the gig. It's why we do what we do. And there's actually no creative rulebook for us. either. It's just that we're

all fans. And, you know, I mean, and again, it's, it's, we, we are all fortunate that we, we work with another great group of people on our side of the fence. And we share and we, we support each other and thank God

we don't all have the same taste. But that's, that's a gig. When you guys as a writer, when you guys, I don't know if you guys have, I don't really get writers block because I do it every day. whether it's good or not as a whole other conversation, but I certainly can write every day.

You know, when you guys go through sort of the down parts, you know, it's impossible to follow, you know, you're not writing someone like you every day, even if you'd like to. You're not writing in California. My mind I am. Yeah, right. You think, yeah, for sure.

I've done it again. Yeah. I mean, in a sense, you're always saying oh man I love this I love this this is really good I I just heard one back the other day course is pretty good verse all right pre-course could just bury it I mean it's just the worst thing but in the moment I was like now man that's a good choice let's go with that that thing's huge I'm thinking like it's a lottery ticket I just scratched off a winner you know it's a little weird it is a little bit of a lottery I mean I think we it's a controlled lottery

but you know you think you know but it's so funny songs can change for me depending on who I'm playing it for they sound completely different

when someone is there listening to it than when I'm by myself or when it's someone else listening and as far as writer's block goes something a big lesson I've learned just in this past year is that overriding is so so bad for me

and taking time off is like should be a requirement of the job because yeah I can write a song every day I'll never be able to go in a room and be like oh there's just I can't think of any words or melodies like I can always write a song but do I give a shit and is anyone else gonna and you know what makes that special when you're writing every day it's hard to make that song pop out you know and and we have a good gauge on whether it's like actually a good song and still our batting average isn't amazing Yeah, but everybody needs a holiday. Right.

Well, the Swedes take off two months every summer. Or three months. And the Norwegians, they take off a couple months. And we're all fucking working every day. Yeah. Well, I think... American ethic. It's true.

I think that a lot of things are great when we think they're great. And then it's just whether they get married correctly with... Like, you know, when you sing a melody and you think it's great, I really think it's great. a lot of the time, but for it to get connected with the perfect lyric and the perfect production, like how many times you've had a song, you're like, this is cool, and then the way it's produced, it just comes to life. Like, there's so many factors.

And I really think that's what's so terrifying about this kind of work is there's no way of doing it. You know, everyone here has worked on a song for four months, six months, eight months, two years at some point in your life. And then, you know, had an idea one morning in 10 minutes that was better than that entire thing. You don't know when it comes and why it comes and you don't know what two things. How many times have you sewed something together that had nothing to do with each other and then it happens. I do think that they're all, I think that you get to a point where you know what's interesting and then you just do it forever and that's why it's hard to take time off because

it can happen at any point. So if you didn't go to studio this day, you know, I was working with someone, there's three people recently. We were working together and one person got very sick and canceled. And I was like, great, I'll take the day off. Then I called the other person. I was like, do you want to just like going for an hour? We went in and we wrote a song this is recently that is without a doubt one of the most important songs to me ever. I don't know if it'll mean that way for my career. Personally, it absolutely is. What the fuck? What if I didn't go in that day? What did I not go in and what did I miss out on? That drives you crazy. The fomo.

The fomo will fuck you up. Jack literally will only stop if he's like in the hospital or like he's like. No, he's writing in the hospital. He loves that. He probably is writing in the hospital. But then you have to get better. But like, he gets better. Okay, keep you going. Way to go. Sorry.

But that's a burden that I think is part of it. You know, so why are we so lucky that we get to write songs and expect people to fuck money pay for the song, you know, put their emotions into the song? It's a huge responsibility, right? So sometimes you have this feeling we're like, well, the least I could do is ruin my life. and then sometimes you start ruining your life and your partner hates you or whatever it is and you're like no there's a balance here

and by ruining my life I'm not writing as good song so it's just for me and I'm sure all you guys are really delicate thing and I think that you have to go a certain level hard at it and try to stay sane but doesn't that torture you like what if I didn't I have a picture that I got in my mind first of all Bonnie I like this thing about

when you play the song for someone like this happens to me where I'll play someone a song a song and before they can say anything I'll be like okay I know what to do just playing it for you has solved all my problems and you don't have to you don't have to say anything it's amazing

and then the other thing I was going to say is like I have this image that I got a bunch of years ago and like five years ago and it's kind of tortured me since and I kind of wish I hadn't thought of it but actually I'm going to tell you guys so in a way maybe that isn't so nice but I'm not sure I suddenly thought of my

creativity as this really nice fountain way in the back of my mind. Like way in the back. It's this fountain that's always bubbling. And there's always like beautiful kind of sparkly water coming out of it. And it's just peaceful and like it's always flowing. And then when I thought of that, I was so happy. And then I had the thing you're talking about, Jack, I realized like I should be back there at the fountain more.

Like I need to go there all the time. I have FOMO about the back of my own. mind. Like, I'm missing out on the chance of being in my own head. There's nothing better, right? Like, when you're there. So how often how often do you have periods of time where you're really there?

Because most of the time you're here and then everyone's in a while I'll just be like, I'm in it, I'm doing it, like a few days and you're like, it all makes sense. Like, the past year, like it all fucking makes sense right now. And you often do the best work in that moment. God forbid you're on vacation then. Yeah, the biggest song I've ever had

at radio came from being kicked out of a studio writing at a piano in in the middle of a lobby and having in in i just happened to be recording it and 12 minutes into it i was trying to write an adele song because she was she had just i just heard uh send my love and this was three years ago and i'm trying to write this and i get into it and it's like this terrible emotive like crap with really dark chords and slowly falls into like um you know, Scott will make fun of me for it, but going into it is just saying like, I hear a knock on the door

and the night begins. And I started, and I just wrote my house as a ballad. And that's like, and it really was supposed to be like an Adele. Wow. Like I totally was like, I totally missed the mark.

Adele in Florida have a lot of. It's ridiculous. I love the ballad and just speed it the fuck up. That's the whole eight. Yeah. You do that. You drop it down in auto tune. You put four men I sound identical to flowrata, and there you go. We're all going to do that. Hardest thing to rate.

An up tempo for us. Yeah, it is. All right. On that note, if you were to ask me, I would say, and I say this behind your backs, you know, someone like you, Teenage Dream, and we are young, in my opinion, are three of the best songs

ever written in my life. So, as a fan, more than a host, thank you guys for coming. Thank you for listening to the first season of And The Writer Is. If you want to go back and listen to earlier episodes, they're still on iTunes, or you can look at our website www. www.andleris.com. And for more information for the second season,

follow us on our socials, whether it's from Instagram, Twitter, or Facebook. Our handles are at And The Writer is. Now this next season coming up is going to be amazing, and it will be released. this fall. So stay tuned. And on behalf of all the people involved with, and the writer is, we thank you for sharing and we thank you for listening. Till next time, I'm your host, Ross Bowling.