And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 220: Tayla Parx | Longevity & Building a Lasting Career

Episode Date: September 8, 2025

Today’s guest is more than a hitmaker — she’s a creative force who has shaped the sound of a generation. From penning chart-toppers like “Thank U, Next” (Ariana Grande), “High Hopes�� (Panic! at the Disco), and “Love Lies” (Khalid & Normani) to building her own label, publishing company, and artist career, her story is a masterclass in reinvention, resilience, and longevity.And the writer is… Tayla Parx!In this episode, Tayla sits down with Ross to unpack how she’s navigated more than a decade at the top of the music industry — from her start in Hairspray to writing with Babyface, to becoming one of the few Black women with a #1 country song. She opens up about:Surviving the pressures of back-to-back sessions and industry burnoutTurning setbacks into fuel for her artistry and business venturesWhy branding yourself as a songwriter matters as much as the songsThe art of staying relevant without chasing trendsHow to keep building a catalog that pays you for decades to comeFor every songwriter, artist, or creative grinding to build a career that lasts — this is the blueprint.🎧 Listen now and learn how Tayla Parx keeps writing hits… again and again.Chapters0:00 Teaser – Why Longevity Matters in Music1:37 Intro: And The Writer Is… Tayla Parx!8:33 From Dallas Kid to Hairspray & Nickelodeon Star12:49 Finding Songwriting & Learning From Babyface14:07 Leaving Acting Behind to Chase Music Full-Time24:53 The Warner Chappell Era: Building a Writer Community27:15 Breakthrough Hits: “Thank U, Next” & “High Hopes”31:38 NMPA Ad – Fighting for Songwriter Rights32:45 Inside the Story of “Thank U, Next”39:37 How to Build a Catalog That Pays for Decades40:55 “Love Lies” & Crossing Genres as a Hitmaker50:34 Advocating for Women, Black Creatives & LGBTQ+ Voices52:00 Why Tayla Still Releases Her Own Music53:20 From Bieber to John Legend to Country #155:32 Exploring Jazz, R&B, and Children’s Music59:34 Song Splits, Collaboration & Session Dynamics1:03:41 Why Collaboration Matters (and When to Write Alone)1:11:38 The Secret to Longevity & Reinvention1:16:25 Closing Reflections & LegacyAnd The Writer Is… is presented by The National Music Publishers’ Association (NMPA) — advocating for songwriters, music publishers, and their essential rights.Learn more at NMPA.orgHosted by Ross GolanExecutive Produced by Joe London and Jad SaadWatercolor by Michael White Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This industry, it's about who is willing to go the longest. Are you crazy enough to keep going? Because this gets hard. You end up on Bieber's Justice album. Thank you next, High Hopes. Love Lies also comes out that year. And then you end up one of a handful of black women who've had a number one country. I was surrounded by a lot of people who didn't look like me.

It helps me sleep at night knowing that I'm crazy enough to never stop. Everybody's so scared to piss somebody off, so scared to become irrelevant. especially as a woman. Yeah, you did that, but I think it might have been luck. Yeah, you did that again, but I still think it might have been luck. Oh, yeah, everybody doesn't have to like me. If you're seeing this at Taylor from 10 years ago, what is it that you would tell her? Honestly, I would just say, that's just what gives me the confidence.

For me, it's like the consistency, the efficiency, and the longevity of it all. How do you approach those differently? I start with questions, like with artists. Okay, how do you say I love you? How do you say I hate you? Like, I really start with just getting a little bit curious. If you have a career, it's something that you're dedicating 20, 30 plus years to make it stand for something. What is the answer to the longevity part of that?

This season is presented by NMPA, the National Music Publishers Association. Champions of Songwriters and Publishers Everywhere. Welcome to And The Writer is. I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's multi-hyphenated hitmaker is a force in the songwriting community. Her discography reads like a master class in reinvention range and resilience. You may have first seen her lighting up the screen in hairspray, but make no mistake, this artist has spent over a decade trailblazing her own path

in music, theater, and business. All the way from Dallas, Texas originally, this writer's gone from TV sets to building her own. record label and the writer is Taylor Parks. What's good. You know, this is what I was looking up. I was looking up that we met in 10 years ago. Wow.

Pretty much this fall for a writing camp in Las Vegas. That makes a lot of sense. That makes a lot of sense. It's weird because a decade, when you're first starting out, a decade sounds like a really long time. Right. Right. But that doesn't feel like it was that long ago.

It doesn't feel like it's that long ago. And it's weird to be like, you know, I was coming in kind of being like, I mean, really like a kid at the time. And now it's like, whoa, this is very different. And you didn't have like a gray hair. If you were to sit in my seat now, if you're sitting that's at Taylor from 10 years ago, what is it that you would tell her? I mean, honestly, I would just say don't, don't lose that confidence. because and also don't lose the ability to continuously learn because I think that that's just what gives me the confidence is like, okay, if anything is true, I'm going to be prepared. And if I'm prepared, I'm like, I know when I'm not, like, prepared enough.

And I guess like with songwriting, like, what does preparation look like with your career? What does preparation look like? You know, and trying to keep that, I think the balance is like, okay, that's where it comes from. When you think of preparation as a songwriter, what does that mean? For me, it means being in tune. It means being in tune with, like, and also it's like a gym. I feel like if I go like a few weeks or if I might go like a month or two without writing them, like, I'm feeling a little bit rusty.

And honestly, those are important breaks to have. So for me, it's like the consistency, the efficiency and the longevity of it all. Like how am I take? Those are the three words that I've always like kind of repeated to myself in any kind of span, throughout my career, those are the three things for me that's like, okay, you're writing. When I think of the job of a songwriter in 2025, it's different than it was in 2015. Yeah. And one of the things that I think has made you so successful over the last 10 years is your

ability to brand yourself as, you know, in an in an, in an, area where I think songwriters come and go, it feels like Taylor's been there the whole time. What is the answer to the longevity part of that trio of things that you need? That's like, like the background of my like screen right now is like your, you know, your creativity doesn't need you to create and need you to evolve thing. Something like that. I might be like butchering it, but it's something along those. lines of just being like, as long as I'm evolving, you can always be like wherever, you know, your idea of happiness is at that moment, you know, and minds has, you know, continuously come

like with a mixture of, you know, jumping from genre to genre, being able to meet new people, collaborate with new people because you kind of know how it is. Like when you're doing pop, you're kind of seeing the same few people. When you're doing hip hop, you're kind of seeing the same few. Whatever that genre is, you're going to see the same few people. You're going to see the same few people. people. And being able to evolve and just, again, being a student from whoever I am like in the room with, it's been the major push behind being able to be like, okay. Because I also think about it this way, I think probably around that time of coming in like when it was like me and Julia Michael's getting signed within a few months apart. And like then also meeting like Justin and all these

interesting and very, very talented people. Like, songwriters having PR and stuff like that would become like an actual, like, you need this thing, like probably like two or three years after that, like maybe a little bit more. And I started to be like, oh, it's evolving. I feel like I've gone through two different industries of a writer since first meeting because I didn't see a lot of like songwriters with PR prior to that. And it wasn't a lot of emphasis put on your brand. Like you would a lot of, especially producers, like, you know, like, for real, right? Like, he has a whole brand wrapped up in him, but, like, I think that that's something that's become so much more of a normal now.

And it started probably a few years after I got signed. Yeah, it's also pockets of writers that started to figure out, oh, well, we might get lost in a business where part of your asset is your brand, you know. It's just hard. people think of songwriting as the only asset you create is the song, but the songs can have more value if people are going to you, the brand, to hear those songs. And so if you build the brand, you know, even in a conversation with a bank about private equity getting into buying catalogs and someone said, well, how do we increase multiples? And I said, are you trying to increase

value or multiples? Because if you want multiples to include, You have to increase the fame of the writer or the artist. That's how you create a higher multiple on, you know, the value that you create from the other stuff. So that brand is a songwriter. I'm sure there are songwriters who get a higher multiple than maybe they're in their career, not just because of the quality of their song, but because people want to have Taylor Park songs in their catalog or in their, you know, fun. That's just, you know, that's just kind of the. I don't know, the world that we live in when it comes with that, anything is kind of like

the brand that is attached to it. And, you know, we can talk about all of that stuff later. Well, I was going to say, I was going to say, like, we, I feel, I know you too well to, like, I'm realizing that people who are watching this, but like, we just jumped straight into into the deep end. But swimming to the shallow one for a second, you know, you live in Tennessee, you grew up in Texas, you're like a real kind of like southern girl. Yeah, absolutely.

And who's like, who lives everywhere it feels like. Let's just start from the beginning. In Dallas, Texas, why do your parents live in? What was your family like? Why were they living in Dallas? What is Dallas? How did Taylor get born? Like literally my mom just was like living in Dallas.

She's from Louisiana originally. And, you know, she was in the Army and kind of, you know, was a single mom in the beginning. And then, you know, probably around nine years old, I end up going to a, like, a dance school with, like, one of the, one of my, like, now, like, best friends and, like, classmates went to this dance school. And I was like, I'm going to just come with you this time. And at that dance school, Debbie Allen was there. It was Debbie Allen's dance school. And she happened to be, like, looking for people who could, like, I used to have, like, two left feet. So it definitely wasn't like, this incredible dance or whatever, but she was looking for somebody who could also sing.

And at the time, people just knew me as, like, that singing kid. Like, so I was like, I could sing, you know? And so it would be, like, just years working together. And she would eventually, like, just convince my parents to let her bring me out to L.A. for a summer for her dance academy. And then she's like, okay, you can sing and now you can dance, can you act? And I'm like, I don't know what that is. I'm 11, you know? And so she would like just kind of open up my world to these different ways that I could

connect with people and use my personality in that type of way. And then from then it was just like on me to decide, okay, what does that look like? So eventually my parents were like, should we just move on out to? California and see how it goes. And that's kind of how things, kind of how I landed from the south in L.A. Do you have siblings? Yeah, I have a little sister, Nia. And I have some have siblings as well.

But yeah, my little sister, Nea. Do they want to be in entertainment? No. Well, yeah, like my little sister, she definitely does not. She's very shy. Same thing with my mom. Like, I have a musical family, but nobody in my family is like, Hey, hey.

And even me. I'm like, hey. And so I'm like, bye. Are you reclusive ever? I feel like when I'm out, I'm out. But how often do we like run into each other out? Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, I'm not the person that's just like, dang, I see her every single week.

I've never been that type of thing. But when you get me out the house, we might as well do it up. What's in the house, Taylor, like? I mean, I got my plans. I got my dogs. Like, I'm just trying to chill. Like, I'm very, I'm giving very Virgo with that. But especially now because it's like a lot of lives in my hands with my ranch.

So I'm just like, you know, I'm just making sure everything is. How many lives live on your ranch? There's about like 30. Yeah, there's like 30 lives. What's the breakdown of the Taylor Park? We got pigs. We got goats. We got sheep.

chickens. We got some barn cats and my four dogs. It's a lot. Yeah. I'm out here. My mom is like always telling me like, don't get another living thing because if it's not my animals, it's my plants.

And I'm like, can you just go and make sure my irrigation is, you know, still going? Perfect. So you move out when you're 13 and, you know, you were already doing dance and stuff. But that seems like acting and dance seems far away from creating music.

I mean, you can sing, but that's still not the same thing as being a writer. When, what was the first thing that moved you from like, oh, I like to sing to, I kind of want to make up my own songs. So it's a kind of intersecting point there. So after I moved to L.A., probably like a year or two later, I ended up like booking hairspray and doing all these things, which then led me to like some Nickelodeon stuff. It was on Victorious and, you know, and True Jackson VP. And along the way, probably when I was like, maybe three years after hairspray, I ended up

meeting Ricky Minor and Saida Garrett was, he introduced me to Saida Garrett. For people who don't know who these people are, just give like a quick song that like, you know, Saida Garrett, you know, man in the mirror, you know. Crazy. Crazy. And at the time, and I don't remember who introduced me to Ricky Minor, but he was telling me basically, like, you know, this is how you're going to control your voice or whatever. And he had these like Missy Elliott tracks. And it was really crazy. It was crazy to be in, like, a studio at that time. And I didn't know really what was going on, you know. But Saida Garrett starts to tell me like, oh, you know, write your life down.

Like, start to write, boom, boom, boom, do all these other things. Around 17 years old, I was like, I kind of like this acting thing, but I really did hairspray because I also got to sing. And, you know, I just, yeah, there was other people who wanted it so much more than me on that acting side. And that is something that you've got to give it your all. It's very similar to music. You've got to give it your all if you're going to do it.

If not, and you got to love it, love it, love it. It's not worth it, you know, if it's kind of the cornerstone of your career. So 17, I was like, oh, I could do voiceover. Because then that gives me a touch of being like, and this is the kind of recluse side of me. I can be behind the scenes and still be able to have some flexibility with my life. Like at that point, I've now spent my preteen years and most of my teen years on a camera or auditioning for something or work. whatever. But then I'm like, okay, during those years, I found out songwriting is a job. I started

to meet people like, you know, Tori Kelly. She, like, lived like, an hour out further than me because I used to live in the IE. And I met Leon Thomas on, on Victorious, and we used to work on, like, I chat when that was a thing. And we would learn logic together, right? We would learn all these different things. Tori Kelly had already been in her first kind of deal or two by the time, you know, we were like the age that we were at like 14. We had the same vocal coach at the time. And that kind of leads me into being like, oh, okay, there's this recording studio thing and there's this voiceover situation. I can do something behind the scenes. I can understand like, is this, is this my, could this be my version of happiness? And my dad used to always.

telling me, hey, if you want to be a singer and you want to spend more time doing the music, you don't want to be having to be reliant on everybody to do everything for you. So that's why they ended up buying me my dogs and telling me to learn these things. And I would be like, I'll charge you $20 an hour to use my studio setup so I can get like practice it or like recording people and shit. Like that was my thing in my parents' house and the IE. So eventually, Leon, he invites me to work at Brandon's Way with Babyface. And at this time, yeah, I had to be like 19.

And I decided I was like I had this really steady like voiceover job like with Sims. And I was a voice over for Sims. Wait, just to stop you, because I think I had two songs that were in, two in Sims games where I had to sing the songs in Simlish. Yes. I think Glacier Hiking saved some and then a solo one with Move. Yeah. And these were two songs that like I had to write in Simlish and sing.

When you do voiceover stuff for the Sims, you kind of ghost over it. But it's not like you're doing voiceover work that's like you're speaking gibberish. Yes. What is, speak a sentence in Semlish? Um, Yorby Whitty Fesh, doorknob.

Like, you can, the hardest thing is to not speak English because you cannot say anywhere that starts to seem like, okay, you're being fake, they're like,

okay, we're not going to count that one. You got 40 more takes to go. Like, it's, you're kind of stringing, it's kind of like freestyle. And I think that that was like,

the singing part is the thing that allowed for me to be able to lock in with the voiceover acting. So, because I was doing that and Walking Dead and, you know, being cyborg for different things. Like, it's so much about your inflection and, like, that intention. So that thing kind of crossed over with vocal production, eventually, with the songwriting. Like, all of the, even being able to connect with an artist and being able to really embody them, I think that the acting background ties in there of me being like, okay,

I am now you. All of my life experiences before this moment. It doesn't matter unless it's adding to you. And like those worlds have just crossed over in so many different ways that I was just like, okay, that's kind of how it randomly all tied together. When you know, you're multitasking, doing a million things as Taylor does. And, you know, you're producing, you've got voiceover work, you're starting to write. songs, you're in with Babyface. There's a, there are levels of success, but being in with baby faces, for anybody who didn't hear the Babyface interview, you know, he won producer of the year three times in a row, was nominated the three years before that. That's six years where that guy was maybe not just the biggest producer, songwriter, but also artists.

Like everything he was doing was. just untouchable. And to learn from not just a Hall of Famer, but like a Hall of Famer amongst Hall of Famers is just a wild thing. Did you, was there a point where like I, I got to give up all the voiceover stuff. All this is getting in the way of what my North Star is, which is music. Even when, even when now I did give up a lot of the on-screen stuff and I chose to say, I'm only going to do voiceover.

And that was like, it might have been like a. seven or eight years stint, maybe 10 years, like that I was like, I don't want to take any on screen things on, but I will do voiceover things here and there or whatever. And it allowed me to be able to afford to be a songwriter at the time. But I did Sims, even when like that check eventually was like obsolete to me. Like, it was like, I'm doing this because I loved it. I did that for over 10 years. Whoa. Like, I did it even when I was having like hit songs and things like that. I still did it until I just didn't have the time.

Yeah. Because the Sims game was the main thing that I was able to spend my time with while filming hairspray because everybody else was adults. And I was like the only kid on set. And so everybody else would be able to go out and do their thing. And I was like, okay, I got Sims. And so when I got the opportunity to audition for it, I was like, I know this language, okay? That is wild.

Who was the, did you have an agent throughout this process? It was helping you give voiceover work? Yes. So that same agent, and I've stuck with that agent too, like, even the way that I got my agent, my mom was like on these forums that like, you know, moms, I guess, used to be on. Like, what's going on? Like, what's the auditions? And I used to be, you know, sneaking in all the auditions.

And I get this audition for Gilmore Girls. And that person, she gives me great feedback. She's like, you got the job, but I see on here you don't have an agent. And I'm like, okay, she ends up setting me up with like three agent meetings. And I'm like, I told my mom, whoever can give me the audition for hairspray, I just need the audition. You don't got to give me the part. I'm going to roll with that agent.

And that same agent is the one that I worked with for Sims. And, you know, we just kept it going. The move from, okay, I'm pretty good at this writing thing. I really like embodying these writers. You know, your first artist that you wrote for was still yourself. Yeah. So were you playing a character when you were recording music, you know, for Taylor made from the beginning? Are you writing music for the character or were you really honest in your writing at that point?

When you hear music by Taylor Parks, my own album, even from the Taylor Made mixtape, That is my diary. You hear me in so many different masks when I'm singing through other people. And sometimes it's not even anything having to do with me at all. Like I said, it's so me trying to really, really connect your story with them. If you want to know my story, it is in my own music, you know, is where I don't have any of the rules that I love to have sometimes on the song right inside is like this bullseye when somebody gives you like,

like three paragraphs of emotions and you're like, so this is that in one sentence. That is a bull's eye that you have to hit that is very fun. Like when you nail it and also fun to like see how consistent you are on interpreting that. So when you're writing, you know, how does you walk into a room and there's imaginary Taylor that you could write for or there's you know, Ariana or Brandon Uri or whatever. How do you approach those differently in real time? In real time, definitely approaching my own record with freedom.

That's the first thing that is just like, that's the most important thing because I know that if I've been properly being a student year, all throughout before I decided to start my album process, Who knows what I call as a gumbo is going to come together for my own stuff. And I can't be that free when writing with other people and for other people because you have to place the barriers. And so I approach that very differently. And I start with questions, like with artists, like more questions than I'm like, okay,

how do you say I love you? How do you say I hate you? Like I really start with just getting a little bit curious. It feels like a therapy session a lot for them. That's the feedback that I get. And they're just like, ah, man, I didn't think I could talk about this thing. And that's also a talent on the artist side to be able to be like, here's my life, stranger, you know. Totally.

We signed to Warner Chapel around the same time, give or take a year. And it did feel like there was, you know, a real moment for Warner Chapel at that time. Not say that there is a now. But there was, you know, like you were saying, you and Julia and Justin, me, Sean Douglas, Ian Kirkpatrick. It was, you know, just like a crew, Nick Monson. There was a few people, I'm sure I'm missing a few, but just everyone getting their first, like, cuts the same time. Not just like hits, but like literally people were all previously signed or whatever, but the slew of songs that came out after that was like a community. Yeah.

What was special about the 2012, around around when we signed to 2017 or 18 with Taylor Made? Like what was so special about that time? Maybe I'm looking fondly on it because it was such a good run for a lot of my friends and like we were all doing it together. Yeah, yeah. But what do you think it was? What was that era like? I think buildings go through different eras based off of like who's in the building, you know? And at the time, you know, Big John had just come in to like Warner Chapel.

And, you know, Warner Chapel at the time wasn't like, this is the cool place to go. Like, it wasn't until, honestly, after that run that you're talking about. And then it became like, and I'm not saying that there wasn't hot people before that. But what I am saying is that that run was such a part of, and what Big John was doing, like, to be like new to this company and doing it, you know, that way. It really, really got a lot of heads turning and it worked. You know, whatever they were doing all as a team, you know, you had the KD's and all of the ANRs and the ANR style, you know, I think that it was just dominating pop for a second.

And, you know, that was, I think that's the biggest. thing. It's just a difference of the building and everybody has a different idea of success too when they do get into those things. Yeah, I mean, you obviously had, you know, a lot of songs come out and then you have the record deal and you release music and a lot of the stuff does really well. And then you have, and I think this is often common, but in the end of 2018 or middle 2018, you end up with like, not just hits, but like, well, you know, I mean, thank you next has two billion plus streams, which is just like, I don't know, it's 40% of the world. Like if everybody clicked on it. You know what I mean? That'd be like if everybody in the U.S.

clicked on it at least four or five times, you know? Like everybody knows that song. You can't really fathom it as a human, like how many, how many that is. It gets nominated for album of the year. It was the fastest song to get to 100 million streams. Before that, were you ever discouraged? Because, you know, we all get, well, it seems inevitable once you have it, and you're like, I knew I put in the work. Yeah.

But we're all lying to ourselves if there was some moment that you're not like, Like some of our friends have like crazy songs. Yeah. And you're putting in good work and you're doing, you're like big songs. Yeah. But that's like a different level. How did having the biggest song in the world give you perspective on the build to that? Oh, my God.

Actually, like probably a few years before that. I can't remember how many years exactly. before that, I wrote High Hopes at a camp in Aspen at a BMI camp. And we were in this song. And at that time, like, in my life, I was just like, I'll keep having these. I have massive names like on my resume. I've worked with like Mariah and Boom and all these other people. But the records weren't hits, right?

And so it's like, the plaques are nice. But I'm trying to see what this other shit talking about. You know what I'm saying? And so I was at that point where I was just like, that is why I was writing high hopes from my perspective. Like, is I got to have how hopes. Like when I don't have nothing else, I got to believe that it's going to happen

because I believe that this industry, especially being a writer or a producer, it's about who is willing to go the longest? Because people will drop like flies. Like, it's just like, are you crazy enough to keep going? because this shit gets hard. It gets so hard and so personal and all those other things.

So, you know, it helps me sleep at night knowing that I'm crazy enough to never stop. My idea of success might change, but it's no way that I'm going to not make it to whatever finish line I create at that time. What's your, you said your idea of success changes. What's your idea of success now? My idea of success now is

kind of like what I've been working for with building the sage estate is like getting outside of L.A. and always being reminded every day that I wake up that I can have success anywhere from anywhere I decide to be in the world. That's my idea of success, being comfortable with that. Being able to be self-sufficient with my ranching and being able to understand like what I want to provide for, you know, my family one day. Like those are my different things. Being off of a hamster will, of wanting to be relevant all the time. Like, that, if I can get there and being there, which is honestly, surprisingly, like, how I feel at this very moment in life, who knows what I'll feel like next week.

But at this second talking to you, I'm not on that hamster will. I'm chilling. And so I'm like, okay, this is what it looks like now. and I try to be gentle with myself as that evolves because it's like something I might wake up

and be like I want to boat guess I got to get back to writing you know who knows you know but I try to just stay in tune with it I want to stay in those songs from 2018 for a second because you're somebody

when you do voiceover work you are 100% responsible for the creation of this character and you do that You do it by yourself. But when I think of Taylor Parks, I think of somebody who is a master of collaboration.

NMPA is the premier organization for music publishers and their songwriter partners. It's their mission to increase the value of music, and that's exactly what they do. NMPA is working right now to raise royalty rates for songwriters from streaming services, radio, social media, and everywhere, music is essential. From the courts to Congress, NMPA works to get songwriters what they deserve. I know because I've served on the board before, and I'm the current co-chair, along with Ryan Teter and Liz Rose, for the Golden Platinum Club.

So again, thank you NMPA for supporting and the writer is and songwriters everywhere. Both of the stories around high hopes and thank you, Next are unique in the kinds of groups of people it took to create and finish those songs. So how was it writing with Ari? And tell me about the story of Thank You Next. I mean, it's incredible writing with her. We first met on the set of Victorious when we were young. And was that weird to be like,

Oh my God. Yeah. And you guys talked since that? Like, we had talked since that, but just like, because it was just like a mutual friend thing, like I'd show up to the birthday parties. And, you know, like that's how we were on I chat, like that type of stuff. But it would be years before we connected again, which would be my everything. And she didn't even know that I was a writer on my everything because it was like very

separate. And our ideas of each other were very different than music. It was like, oh, you're. did this thing in Harrisbury. I did this thing in 13. And so that was the vibe. But then with Thank You Next, we ended up going out to New York and kind of, I love to get an artist in a moment and I love to be like the honor of being a part of a really big life shift for artists because that is where the magic is. And I'm always like, there's different styles of writing.

And for me, when I think, if somebody's coming to me for a record, I'm like, what is it? And I think that that's what my brand has been built off of tailor-made brand is, what could this person need for me? And a lot of the times it's helping build songs with identity, helping building songs that are like, nobody. But this person could have pulled that off. And it would have been a hit.

Because if Thank You Next was for anybody else, it wouldn't have gone as crazy as with this particular type of artist because you do have artists where people don't really care who they're dating. They don't care who they dated. It's just like put on the song, everything else. I don't care. And then you have some artists that their fan base is also so invested in their story. And I like to write the stuff that's like, you can't get this in an interview. And thank you next was that. I was watching a documentary and like they basically named each chapter after the that they were dating basically in this documentary. And I was like, girl, I went back to the studio the next day and was like,

how would you feel about like this? And of course, then Victoria and her and like bouncing off of this. And then we landed on Thank you Next, which is a phrase that she says, you know, and has tweeted before. And so then comes the hard conversations of, are we going to say names? Are we not going to say names? We had numerous versions of that. How do you go about having the conversation with the people that they're going to be, you know, brought up in this, you know?

And so, you know, that's how Thank You Next kind of happened. A lot of hard conversations. Where is the ring that she gave all of the writers for Seven Rings? I still have it, literally. Do you wear it? No, I don't wear it, but I definitely still have it. And that was a crazy day, too, which literally inspired. Like, that's how you know, like, when you actually can give inspiration to a writer, like, live some life, girl, give me something to talk about.

That, you walk into the studio and you got seven rings. You know what I'm saying? Because you just had a good day. You decided to go to Tiffany's. Like, now, that's some shit I got to write about. One of the things that you and I have in common is, you know, writing, because having dangerous women on dangerous women before. and you have me thank you next and thank you next. It's like you end up being part of the brand, the tour, all the things.

This is all artists are, I wouldn't say like guilty of this because it's not, they're not doing anything technically wrong, but how do you feel about being part of the branding of a tour and for songwriters not participating in the merchandise, all the things that say thank you next on it. Yeah. I think if it's a lyric that you wrote as a songwriter, right? If it's a lyric that you wrote and it's on the merge, you deserve to have some portion of the payment for that.

If it's just the artist's name, cool. You know, but if it's this insert lyric that was specific to this thing, like Thank You Next in particular is a little bit different because it's a phrase that she said. Now we know that that song is what allowed that for. to also just jump. And so that's a different kind of conversation. But I will say that that is something that really, really needs to change when it comes to

somebody's specific lyric being sold. Yeah, it's really complicated. Well, we can talk more about that later. But the amount of songs that I have that have been used as the brand around an artist, where they've used that in order to have their clothing. line or whatever it is that goes attached to it. And it's like it's a weird truth that, you know, we just watch it and sort of applaud from the side.

You don't get a license. You don't get anything for it. Absolutely. You know, it's, it's something that songwriters can advocate later for potentially. High Hopes also has a number of co-writers on it. And that took a whole other life. Like you said, it was first written in, in Aspen at the BMI camp. I did that BMI camp.

My envision is that you guys were literally writing that in a hot tub. Yes, yes. Literally, we were stuck. We had done like two other ideas like that day or whatever. But then we were just like, let's go get in a hot tub. Boom. We end up getting in a hot tub and all of a sudden, you know, it's given high hopes. But we didn't know even at the time.

We wouldn't know because it didn't get placed until years later. And that also gave me, I'm like, y'all never hear the end of this for me. Sometimes it's not always a song. Sometimes it's the time and sometimes it's the moment or the artist that's paired up. Like, in that song, even as a publisher, I always use it as an example of seven years later. Even now, I tell people, I'm like, I'm still able to survive off the songs that I wrote 10 years ago. I can still say that there's something getting placed from it, you know? Yeah, don't let the, I know a lot of people who are, their ADHD prevents them from listening back to their previous work.

And I can't stress that you are sitting on probably hits. Yeah. You know, I, you don't, and no one will ever know your catalog as well as you. Your publishers have other writers. Exactly. Everyone, you have to know your stuff well enough to call that publisher and say, this song, remember this one? Remember this one? And keep going because you believe in the song because you never know.

I think that's not uncommon at all. Oh, my God. Even me, like I have that bad. I have to go back and listen. And I try to now set up, I set up listening meetings with the team. And I'm like, okay, let's go through the catalog. And I think that it's only started to happen around the time of realizing, oh, wait,

the placement is the thing. But the catalog is the real thing. Let's pay attention to this more holistically. Because I always used to think about the catalog itself as like, okay, if I can hit numerous territories, because I was in a deal that was just like, woo, in the beginning, it was like, you know, I just had to write so many songs to, like, get to that next thing.

And it ended up sharpening my pen, absolutely. as a writer because that's where efficiency came from. But like when I started to realize, oh, the catalog is where it is, okay. Like now we can actually move forward appropriately. Love Lies also comes out that year or those years. But like back to back to back, like three just massive songs. How did genre wise, all three songs are different? How did the

Caled and Normani's version, how did that song change, you know, your thoughts of you as a writer having had high hopes and thank you next

also the same years? It was something that was, first of all, like just being with two other like for, love lies, having two other like just black

creatives and being able to share what, you know, was able to like break a record for, like, it was a slow grower and it just stayed for a very, very long time. That was, I learned a lot of lessons with that record as well. And so I do think that, yeah, like, that was something that was I was really, really proud of. And each type of record was different types of success. Like, High Hopes was the one where I was like, oh, this is like the sink and license one is going to go crazy and thank you next it's like the radio one when it's going to go

and how it's did very well in radio too but you know what i mean in my mind i like to put things in in whatever order makes sense to me um and yeah like it was it was an honor because i don't i was surrounded by a lot of people who didn't look like me and especially being like i'm gonna do pop yeah there's literally like there was like esther dean Right. And then it was like, who else? And of course had major, major pop success, but being able to be like, okay, now, you know, and then years later you see somebody like Annesia coming in it, and there is no question

of whether they can do pop. Like, you had also, we can't forget, you know, money loan. Like that was somebody who was doing all these different genres at the time. And I finally was like, maybe I just did something to help put, to be another person to to be able to look at when that other, like, young black woman is saying, I want to do pop because there's not going to be people that, like, look like you, like in it or there's not going to be that much. You know what I mean?

How does being a black woman in the music industry now, how does it feel compared to what it was like even 10 years ago? I mean, I definitely think is different. I think, well, you first stuff started with. In the past 10 years, R&B music and hip-hop music, like the Billboard charts have changed drastically. You see more R&B in the Billboard Hot 100. You see more hip-hop in the Billboard Hot 100, like with the rise of amigos and all of those people, like, who have really made a crossover.

Same thing with K-pop. Like it wasn't in the, like, the Billboard Hot 100 before when I first started writing. I definitely will say that there's been a lot more. Like we, everybody knows what a culture vulture is now. Nobody wants to be a culture vulture. So sometimes, like, you have people who are smart enough to say, hey, maybe if I'm going to write for this black woman artist, I should have somebody who's at least black or a woman.

I'll take either one of them. It could be a white woman. Fine. But somebody who reflects something similar to that might be able to shed a light because we still have this problem now is like, it's always like, we've got this young, new, hot thing. She's a girl and she's a blonde and she looks like this. Let's put this 50-year-old man in the thing.

And he's going to be the executive producer and also the main producer. And then there might be like some of the producers that sign to him like involved or whatever. And that's fine. But have somebody with perspective because sometimes especially when it's always a man, even if I'll just even take a woman just being involved. Like sometimes women have to learn like to speak. up in certain rooms. And if you're a newer artist being signed and this is the hitman, you know, it's very tough to kind of shape that thing. So I do think like as you add that layer

of being a black woman and there's, I don't know, one of four black women to ever have a country number one. There's one of, there's, I think, eight or non-woman who've ever like had, you know, a rock, black women, like it's been a part of that type of thing. There's, it doesn't go over 10 as far as the genres goes. Like as far as the genre goes, it doesn't go over 10 people that I can reference to say like this person like also

did it. So I'm just trying to be a part of what I have trying to be creating new normals. Like that's all I'm trying to be is a new normal. I feel like the music industry is really cruel to the

newest female writer to have hits. Yeah. It's not the same thing with guys. It just isn't. But when a young woman has their first hit or two, we see how the industry squeezes everything they can from that person. And they start, you know, we talked about a bit when Ilsey was on this and

Julia when she was on this but it's really unfair in a way how the industry I think makes often presents these ideas of like a clear unhealthy lifestyle of doing two three sessions a day and we'll pay you

till you're sick essentially to be in the studio and to like which it sounds it sounds like a strange it sounds strange when I'm saying it to somebody who hasn't been in it, but when you're in it, you've seen this happen to women a thousand times over. Absolutely. How did you maintain any sort of mental safeness during, you know, the height of those three

songs all coming out at once? Honestly, I'm highly aware that. Nobody wants you to be so successful that you start asking for more money. Nobody wants you to be so successful that you start asking to be treated fairly. That's not what our industry is built off of. It's like, that's why I don't think that we'll have other executives that stay in buildings for like 50 plus years. Why? Because then they're going to have to pay that person a salary that reflects it.

And we don't have many, even male producers and writers that stick around like that, that long. and actually it's just gotten smaller and smaller and smaller. Like you can count on maybe like as far as being like on some Max Martin or some like just statistically or whatever. You don't have that many people that are around long enough for that even to be a conversation. And so if I can get over the hard part of being like they will never try to value as much as you value you. They will never value as much as you value you. What you can do is be like, damn it, you're going to feel it if I'm not in this room, no.

Because you're going to miss these moments where it was easy to do your job. You know what I'm saying? It was a little bit easier because you have a teammate and me. And I'm going to do my role. You're going to do your role. I ain't going to let my role slip. So, boom, it's going to make sure that at least you don't got to worry about this while you take this on and do all of the other things that you need to do.

Like the safety, I think we're so, like, scared. Everybody's so scared to piss somebody off. so scared to become irrelevant because guess what? You mentioned get in the advances and they'll pay for you until you're sick, whatever. That's only if you're relevant. So even if you've had, especially as a woman, like, you're like, yeah, you did that, but I think it might have been luck. Yeah, you did that again, but I still think it might have been luck. Okay, you've done it again with complete strangers every time because these are different genres. Like this is, this has to say more than maybe there's a consistent link and it might just be the person that is a consistent

and link to maybe it's not luck, you know? So I definitely do think that it's getting over the fear. Like, that's been something over the past few years of just being like, if I want to be happy, like I don't want to wait until I'm 50 or 60 to realize, oh yeah, everybody doesn't have to like me. I think of, you know, and I'm glad that you speak like this because people who know you know that this is the Taylor, that this is the Taylor we love. Right.

And I'm not an asshole. Like, people know I'm actually like very fun to deal with most times. I'm like, you know. And there's like, and you're not dealing it. I hate when people say, like, oh, I just say how it is. But really that means that they have no tact. You actually have tact. You're using actual language and history and precedent and reason to describe what you need.

You advocate for a lot of people. You advocate for songwriters. You advocate for women. Black women. and for LGBTQ women. How do you think that the things you advocate for, does that each of those on their own seem like you're fighting for a minority? And together it feels like that gives you power.

Do you agree with that? I absolutely agree. Because you got to, like if you're not, for me, if you have a career, it's different than having a job. Like if you have a job and it's like I just show up. And this isn't something that maybe is my passion or whatever versus career, something that you're dedicating 20, 30 plus years to make it stand for something. You know, make it stand for something that reflects your values.

And I became a publisher and started the management, kind of all these other things so that I can have safe spaces to reflect what my values are and how I feel like creative should be treated or how you can do that. Otherwise, it doesn't make sense. We have enough people doing it the same way. So definitely having team members in all of those different communities that are fighting for something, it's all for the better treatment of the creative. Amen. You keep releasing your own music throughout all of this.

You know, why? It's for me. It's for me. Honestly, I'm very, very lucky that my life doesn't depend on this. record going crazy. Like, it's totally fine. It gives me a moment to just get my shit off. And honestly, there's been so many opportunities that I've been given because of my own artistry. Like, I've never written with Taylor Swift, but Taylor Swift mentioned one of my records in, you know, in a press run. And it was this record called I Want You. And she was like,

oh, I love this record right now. And people were sending it to me. And it was like, she's definitely not being like, come on and write. But the first. fact that she knows me from that record. I was like, I'll take it, you know, or, you know, Billy Isles running into each other in South by Southwest really was like, I really fuck with the artistry. Like, she writes her own stuff. But it's really cool to have, you know, these different artists that are like, you can collaborate in that type of way and have this a completely different thing. It's not about it doing whatever number. For me, it's like, when I'm 80, I'm going to look back on this and realize I was able to build a different

kind of community with my fans. And I've been lucky enough for that to be, you know, on arenas to theaters to 20 people to whatever it is, you know. You end up on so many different albums. And this is exciting because I think it happens a lot during COVID. But you end up on, you know, Bieber's Justice album, which gets nominated for album of the year. And you end up on John Legend's album, which gets, you know, all the time.

also gets a nomination. And then you end up getting the first, you know, like you were saying, one of a handful of black women who've had a number one song at all country. The diversity in those songs and those genres are, it's almost like having another run of success that like after having three hits that are totally random as far as like the kinds of artists. Is there when you, when you open the door. to country, R&B, you know, more pop, does it make you want to go further into any one genre or

does it make you want to spread your wings even further? Because I certainly know you end up on jazz albums, you know, after that. So maybe I'm answering the question. That is exactly it. Like after having like so much mainstream kind of success, I was like, I don't want, now is when my brand had started to jump on. I'm like, hmm, it's really, really. hard to do a record. Like some of these people might not ever have a Billboard Hot 100, a number one on the Billboard Hot 100. But some of those people that have a number one on the Billboard Hot 100 can't get a

Grammy nomination. So now we're talking about what is the thing that for me is the next thing that stacks onto my brand. And at the time I was like, I don't want to be just the mainstream writer because that throws away all of these, this pool of other people who don't give a, two sheds about that stuff. So I took a quick break from writing pop music. And then you see I did J.D. and Domi Beck.

And I was doing children's music. And I was doing some stuff with Chris Bowers for Bridgeton, which is a random thing where, you know, I'm doing opera and all of that stuff, which is on, like, I'm on it as an artist, which is random. But, like, I had to take a moment to be like, we want to focus in. on this, getting that Grammy-nominated jazz record and the Latin record and then the R&B record and also doing a little bit more R&B. Like, it made me say, oh, no, I can do that. I usually kind of land in the alternative space or a space that is too R&B to be pop and too pop to be R&B.

But now that's no longer a thing. So I was like, let's do the Summer Walkers. Let's do the Caliuchis. Let's really make sure that we're sharpening that pen. And also so that they know, no, you can still come to me for the other stuff. I do hits, too, and we can do hit versions of your stuff too, baby. You know, but if you want to give vibe or if you want to give culture, we can do that too because I'm very holistic in that view of sometimes if people come to me and they're like,

I need a hit. And I'm like, but do you? Do you need a hit right now? And what does that look like? What is success to you? All of those questions come in. And so it's a very different approach. There are a couple of times where I've been next door to a hit being written,

but I wasn't the one in the room. And there was first time that I can recall was there were two rooms going and a track was given. There was like a harmonica in it. And Pipple was there and flow ride had just done whistle. And I was like, all right, so me and Mosella is where in one. room and Priscilla Renee, Money Long, was in the other room. And we wrote a song called Harmonica and she wrote Timber.

And I was like, ah, wrong room. Just right, like, just that day, they were just like, you could go and what room do you want to be in or they'll be like, hey, you and Moselle in that room. You know, Priscilla, you go over there and, Dan. And one of the other times that I have on my list is Dan and Shay were in town and they were like doing some session. They worked with me and Johan. and we were doing, we wrote a song that's really, really a good song.

And they were like, yeah, tomorrow we're writing with, let me see, let me see, because I'm always like, oh, who are you writing with this trip? We're writing with Taylor Parks. Is she any good? It's like, oh, yeah, you should do that. You'll really like that. She's great. What a vibe.

And then, you know, so for you to end up, I remember them playing the song and being really annoyed because it's like, it's not like, you know, You're kind of going to the session that's booked for you. Like, I could have been booked in this session with you. It would have been totally normal had it just been like somebody who's looking down the calendar. It's like, oh, actually, Russ, why don't you go in this one instead? But just missing it by a day. But would that be the same song.

It would have. I would have had a number one song. What have been the same song? We might have ended up right. It just would have been completely different. But yes, you would have had that session for Michelle. And then who knows, it might have been a different hit. It might have been.

But I'm such a firm believer in whatever the energy in. that room is everything, even whoever the engineer is that day, goes into like, this song is one word or phrase or vibe away from going this direction or this direction in infinity to wherever is meant to go. Okay. Well, I got a few comments about that. One, a funny anecdote, there was a guest who was on the show. So that got credited.

So I won't mention who they were, but they were asleep during a song. that was being written. And the producer fought for them to get credit on a song that went number one because he felt like the song wouldn't have been written even without him being in the room as somebody who's asleep. I think that's obviously an extreme version of that. Because you and I, really extreme. In these songs, you have, you know,

there are a lot of these songs that there are five, six, seven writers. And I know you. Yeah. You don't need anybody. Yeah, I'm not about to be playing. How do you feel about, you know, we were just trying to Ryan Tudder was saying that the average song in the mid-2000s, that was the number one song had 3.4 writers and now it's 7.4. How do you feel about the quantity of co-writers on some of the songs that you clearly write the lion's chair of? Yeah.

I am like, sometimes, you know, it's. If you see me on with however many other people, it could be a business move, knowing myself. Like, but I don't typically like to write with a bunch of people because I already know how they ends up going and it really hurts when you're like, damn, like, I wrote there like the majority of this. And then like, there's five other people like that I have this foot of one. But you can't be like the asshole either. It's like, I did this because like I don't want to be the person that's like, and what's the line

that you wrote? But sometimes it's given if you wrote one line, because I'm like that sometimes there's been records that get placed and only one of my lines made it. Give me this percentage because that's what's fair. I have a very, very big thing about just fair. And you know that if I know that I only wrote that one line or whatever, unless it's given that the hook is only one line. And that's what makes a thing. That percentage might look a little bit different. But I'm not here for everybody split everything like even unless it's like I'm doing this on my own means. And that's when your relationships help.

whatever you're doing because if you're like, damn, we've written five hit songs together and, you know, you just had maybe an off day or I wouldn't have been this comfortable without this person in the room. Like, that's such an infinite thing, but I don't think it should be like a standard of everybody always gets like the same thing unless you're very consistent with knowing that, yeah, with knowing those people. And that's very rare because sometimes you're in with somebody for the first time. But I don't know.

I'm very much so about like what is fair. lot of times people don't take what's fair. They're like, oh, hell no. I'm going to get this 20% though I deserve five. And for me, I'm like, damn, if you would have said five, I would have given you seven. Yeah, yeah. I don't feel like it should be whatever line makes it should get a percentage versus were you contributing in the room? Because I know people who came up with some really bad ideas in sessions that were the seed of something that, you're, you know, turned into something pretty good. And so I think I'm okay with, you know, everyone in the room that's participating or trying

to participate. Yes. The other thing is this, you know, if you're one of six writers, and this is a truth that I think songwriters just don't want to talk about. But if you're one of six writers, you get 16.6%. You owe no more than 16.6%. And all of us are so used to doing more than 50% that we get a more. emotionally affected.

Sometimes you come home, I didn't do anything in that song. But you really did 16.6%. If you just added the melody in the pre-chorus and one line in a verse, that's probably 16.6% of the song. Absolutely. I think a lot of times we just assume that

we need to put in 50% of the contribution to qualify for the 16.6%. That's not right. It really, really depends on like, okay, if it's somebody else's melody and somebody else's thing, maybe you finish up the background, okay, I understand the film. But if it's your melody and somebody feels a million, now we're talking about collaboration. Like, if somebody builds the seed for an idea, whatever, but it's, again, going back to would this song be this exact same way if this person wasn't in the room creatively?

I take that same way with tracks. With this track, if it wasn't for the feedback of whatever, would it be? this exact track without the feedback of this person because that's what affects it. Would it be this exact top line without any any of the feedback from this person, then they deserve something on it? You can produce, you can sing, you can write. Why do you even collaborate? Do you ever do 100% songs? I definitely do some 100% songs, but honestly, I like to collaborate. Like I do 200% songs also specifically when I'm like, okay, I have to take moments to write by myself again because it's very easy to get into a thing. I realized even like two years ago, I was like,

oh, I'm engineering the same way that I've engineered since I was 17. Something's got to change. Outside of like, you know, like there's certain things with my workflow that I've been so used to doing a certain way that you can only get that also with collaborating. I was always working with an engineer and it gave me a little handicap because I was like, oh, I'm a little bit slow. I would never accept this from an engineer. I'm slacking. And I don't hold anybody to a standard. I don't hold myself to. So when I was like doing that, I was like, uh-uh, uh-uh, get to it. So I think that a lot of times collaboration, you know, is something that can really, really help gain perspective. And even if you can 100%, it's a statistically, like statistically

solid fact that the amount of people that goes on a Billboard High 100 for this day and age, and I think that that's a little bit of maybe there's three managers out of the four writers or whatever that are just killers. That song is going somewhere. You know what I'm saying? And maybe it's maybe it's because whatever the reason is, you know, I definitely think it's, it's important to collaborate. Did you ever meet Diana Ross? We have met, but not, it was before the song that I did for her. So that was very interesting. It was when I was probably like 11 years old.

She came to one of the shows that Debbie Allen put on at the Kennedy Center. Why did you start a record label? I am so tired of hearing, this is just the way it is, or this is just the way that it's been. And I found myself, like, when I would ask a question, like, why do you guys do this? It was always somebody answering to somebody who's somebody who's somebody who's answering to this other somebody, to somebody just keep it going on along and along and along. And that made me realize that ownership is important. If you want to create new normals, you don't want to have to ask permission to do whatever it is.

You have to be willing to put your money where your mouth is and put your ass where your mouth is too, because it could all go really right or really wrong. But yeah, I think that that was a huge reason behind starting the label and the publishing company for sure. What is it that your publishing company and what your record label does? What is it that they do that's different than what we think of as what has always been? Well, I definitely think we start off with creative development. I think that a lot of the times you don't have enough time. When you're signing thousands of writers, you don't have time to properly develop somebody and to sit and have a weekly meeting with everybody on the roster.

That's what we do. You don't have time to really have the conversations of what does it mean to be successful to you? Because based off of what your answer is, is the way that I'm going to exploit your catalog. Based off of your answer, what is ownership eventually important? according to you, like all of those questions that you wouldn't typically be asked by a publisher. Those are the things that we're talking about. And now we're moving into this next phase of being able to provide health care, which if we can pull this off this year, it'll be one of the first.

Is there a favorite lyric you've written over the years? No. I don't have a favorite lyric that I've written over the years. I don't have a favorite song. Everything means like a different, it just means something different to me. Every lyric or song or placement or whatever, like in my mind, I can remember where I was in life by either what I was filming at the time or what song was out or like where I was in my career, which is sad a little bit.

But I can, each song or each studio has a different place that just takes me back in a capsule. you know. Studios are so magical still. That first moment when you're talking about going to, you know, baby face studio or, you know, there's something still about capturing audio that feels like magic. It really, in the history of humanity, people have only been able to capture audio for 120 years or so, you know? I didn't know. Like when you think about, well, the idea of like, you know, when people say cut a record, It means that they literally means cutting into wax into a wax cylinder.

It means literally like this wax cylinder that, you know, I'm going to butcher this, but like the gramophone or whatever it was that Edison invented. And, you know, this needle would etch into the to the wax cylinder. And then you could play it back and you have audio. You could then take that cylinder and you could roll it and you put in shalak and then you have a record. And then that slack was really brittle. And then World War II happened, the government needed slack. They went into vinyl.

And so then you end up with vinyl, which is a little sturdier. And this idea of like capturing sound and the technology of capturing sound, manufacturing that sound and sharing that is really something that, you know, your great, great grandparents have no knowledge of, well, maybe right on the cusp. That's insane. idea that if you wanted to hear music, somebody in your household had to play it. Or you had to walk by somebody's house where somebody was playing violin or piano or something like that. Or you heard no music. There was no music in the streets or no music in a, there were, nobody was riding a horse and buggy blasting music. You can't send me down a rabbit hole later because I've never had this thought process.

I never thought, yeah, there was a time where if you couldn't sing, good luck. You get music or somebody in your house can't sing or play something. You're going to be playing spoons. You don't know, which that was a thing, right? I mean, when you think of, you know, the, you know, the, this is all on a tangent now. But, you know, the first 30 presidents, you know, didn't have music recorded, you know, like they had to hear some music, something. That's very old. You know, the people who would have to, you had to learn how to make music if you wanted to hear it.

Yeah. It's really natural to actually make music, probably more so than listen to music. Cha. I'm so happy that I've been making music in the 2000s because thinking about cutting up tape, boom, boom, boom. I'm like, this is cute. This is very nice, these big old, you know, $50,000 or $100,000 consoles. But here's my little Apollo. And it's mobile.

And you know what I'm saying? There's still certain things on my vocal chain that I really do like the physical thing, but I'm not a type of person that's like, only has to be the old school. I'm like so, so thankful that it's more accessible because sometimes even just learning a new doll or like with me trying to learn Ableton right now, I'm like, this is crazy. And I know pro tools and laundry, but people forget how much computer work and all of the, how much tech is involved with music. So I'm so happy that we are making music at the time that we are making music.

What are three pieces of advice that change your life that, or three moments in your life that change your life, three pieces of advice you'd give to a new songwriter? I definitely would say three, like definitely one of my favorite pieces of advice is, yeah, learning what success means to you very, very early on, or people will put whatever their idea of success onto you. Another great piece of advice, which is like so random. It was like one of my earliest lawyers. And he was just like, keep your balls, always have balls.

And I was like, okay, I'll do that. And honestly, it's been iconic and iconic piece of advice. Like as long as I'm just like, you know, going crazy with it, I'll have the deal that I'd like. And I think the third piece is just always just be authentic. And I know that those all sound like very generic things, but I think they're also the easiest things to do besides the having ball one. Like that one, you know, but yeah, I would say that those are things, because those

So that goes with brand, being able to tie in your brand and all of those other things that we talked about. What's a song or two that you wish that you wrote? Oh, my God. I have a playlist specifically for this subject. Okay, okay, okay. I wish that I wrote Bobby Caldwell, Open Your Eyes. I wish that I wrote Rich Girl. I don't know.

I'm saying a lot of like, y'all. You know, well, you know one of those. I forget which I think it's Darrell Hall lives in right by where the BMI Aspen campus. Like icon, icon for sure. Anyway, keep going.

I wish that I wrote, oh my gosh. Can I look at one of my little things real fast? Please. Because I'm just like, I want to do something good. I want to see what's going on over here. Oh, I wish that I wrote Necessary Evil about

Unown Mortal Orchestra. I love that you literally have this playlist. Yeah. I wish I wrote Ain't No Sunshine by Bill Withers. Oh, yeah. And then I'll give you two more. You've got a friend in me, Randy Newman. Oh, yeah.

And fucking Ventura Highway. Like, those are the songs that I'm just like, I wish, those are some of the songs on my, I wish I wrote playlist. in 10 years do you have do you see yourself as a rancher or do you see yourself as a songwriter? Both.

I'm honestly, I'm giving hand to Montana right now. Like in my neighborhood, people are like, you're the girl with the ranch, right? So I was, there's a place called Joleton Hardware Store and it's in Jolton,

you know, like 15 minutes from me. And they have a little stage. And one day I was just like, they were just having a good little time. And I was like, I want to do a little acoustic set here. And when I asked about it, she was like, oh, yeah, you're the, you're the gardener, right? I was like, absolutely.

You know, I'm absolutely just the gardener. And she was like, yeah, well, come on. Like, yeah, we can definitely get you on the books and, you know, doing that. I feel like I have a whole new life down there. Like, my neighbor just came to a show that I did for BMI actually. And he was just like, where's your muck boots? You know, like, what is going on? Who are you?

Because they don't see me like that at all. And I'm able to pick and decide like, okay, and now I'm going to step off at a wrench. And I'm going to like be, I don't know, a creative being in this type of way. Because for me, my, you know, the sustainability journey is very, very creative. So I do, I can't see myself stopping writing music for some time.

I've already slowed down writing like a little bit. And when I say a little bit, I'm just not writing 200 songs a year. I might be writing like, 100 something like that. Well, thank you for doing this podcast. I feel like we'll probably do more of these podcasts together. You know, it's like we've known each other for so long.

Yeah. And I'm so happy to have a, you know, it's not just that pocket of people that had success at the same time, right? You know, when you look at those same writers in that Warner Chapel crew, Justin's an advocate, Sean's an advocate, Sean Douglas, you're an advocate. There's a group of people who decided. Sometimes. There's a group of people who decided that there's something more important than just writing songs for themselves. And that's what's so remarkable about that to me is that I feel like there are a lot.

of pockets in the history of music that have been successful but we have an opportunity to be the pocket that wasn't just successful but actually helped create a better industry than what we came into and the things that you've done and that you continue to do allow for the next taylor parks that won't happen but the next kind of parts of you know to to to succeed because you were just you were such a positive light in this business. Thank you. And I just get so excited when I see you anyway. So it's like I knew I knew it would happen that as soon as we start this and I'm going to end up jumping into like not your story. Because like we could talk for hours and hours and hours. Literally. And like we could probably

really get into this stuff, which we will next time. Yeah. But I just really appreciate you. I appreciate what you're doing for the business and and I can't wait to help you raise goats. No, that's... I can't wait to go busy your ranch. Something like that. Thank you so, so much for having me.

I told you when I first came in here, I was like, pooh, I've been scared of this one because I knew that I was gonna, you know, we were gonna get real. And you have been such an awesome just light with, again, creating those normals. And I completely agree that this is the generation of writing that's like,

Yeah, we won't be complaining about the same things that we're complaining about now for another 20 years or 30 years. We're not having that. So thanks for being a part of that. And thanks for having me. We hope you enjoyed this episode. It was produced by me and Joe London in association with Mega House Music Group. If you like this episode, go give us a rating at wherever you listen to your podcast. And make sure to follow us at And The Writer is on all your socials.

We'll see you next week.