And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 221: Andrew Watt | How He Became the Go-To Producer for the World’s Biggest Artists

Episode Date: September 15, 2025

Today's guest is one of the most sought-after hitmakers of the last decade. A Grammy-winning producer, songwriter, and guitarist whose genre-bending work has shaped the sound of modern music. From rock legends to pop superstars, he’s collaborated with Justin Bieber, Post Malone, Ozzy Osbourne, The Rolling Stones, Dua Lipa, Miley Cyrus, and more — earning The Recording Academy’s Producer of the Year award and cementing his status as one of the most in-demand hitmakers on the planet.And the writer is... Andrew Watt!In this episode, Watt opens up to Ross about the relentless drive, bold creative leaps, and collaborative ethos that fueled his journey from bar gigs and $100-a-week tours to producing global anthems.Listeners will learn:How to build trust and chemistry in the studioWhy great producers prioritize vibe and artist comfort over gearHow to manage egos, collaboration splits, and team dynamics at the top levelThe real stories behind hits like Let Me Love You, Havana, Señorita, Stay, and PeachesHow to survive imposter syndrome and stay creatively free under pressureChapters0:00 - Andrew Watt: The Hitmaking Legend1:12 - From Bieber to Ozzy: Watt’s Epic Journey2:20 - Studio Sparks: Watt’s Energy vs. Cirkut’s Chill4:47 - Rock Gods: Producing Pearl Jam & Stones8:02 - Post Malone Meets Ozzy: A Game-Changer9:31 - Rainbow Bar Magic: Ozzy & Post’s Collab14:54 - Greece Hustle: $100/Week Tour Life19:14 - Why Watt Never Quit Music24:44 - Guitar to Glory: Cody Simpson to Bieber27:01 - Music Truth: Results Are Everything28:52 - “Let Me Love You”: Bieber’s Wild Ride39:52 - Pop Hits: “Havana” & “Wolves” Secrets42:02 - Dream Team: Ali, Brian & Pop Gold46:21 - “Havana” Moment: Camila’s Mic Drop48:27 - Post Malone: Instant Bond & Real Talk50:06 - Imposter Syndrome: Honesty in the Studio51:17 - “Stay”: Post’s Non-Pop Masterpiece56:22 - “Peaches”: Justin’s Jam with Shawn & Hailey58:38 - Demos That Hit Hard: Watt’s Emotions1:00:36 - Lady Gaga: Crafting a Visual Epic1:02:15 - Bruno & D’Mile: “Die with a Smile” Magic1:06:34 - Prank Call Chaos1:12:11 - Prank Aftermath1:19:17 - Heartfelt Loss: Watt’s Tribute to a Friend1:20:16 - Ozzy’s Advice: Be Kind on the Way UpThis season of And The Writer Is… is presented by the National Music Publishers’ Association (NMPA) — the voice of American songwriters, composers, and music publishers.And The Writer Is...Hosted by Ross GolanExecutive Produced by Joe London and Jad Saad Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

And Ozzy actually always used to say you'd be really careful of the way you treat people on the way up because you're going to see those same people on the way down. One of the most influential hitmakers ever from Justin Bieber, post-Balone to Ozzy Osbourne. And you finally would call me and they'd be like, what the hell are you doing? Did you ever question what the hell you were doing? No. I just was following music. Jimmy Hendrick cover bands.

I'm playing at nightclubs anywhere that will have me. And I got the Cody Simpson gig. And then we got a gig opening up for. Justin Bieber. And that's how we became friends. You know, I left the Bieber tour to be an artist and play rock and our car breaks down and we're in a tow truck getting to Reno and I hear Let Me Love You on the radio and I'm just like, fuck this. I'm not doing this anymore. We have to talk about the prank. I think that's why it took you so long to invite me on this show. You think so? Are you over it yet? Do you actually even know what really happened? I would like to hear from your side.

This is a long time ago. It was. This season is presented by NMPA, the National Music Publishers Association, champions of songwriters and publishers everywhere. Welcome to And The Writer is. I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's super producer has been on a legendary run for almost a decade. He's altered the genre of pop and reinvigorated the sound of rock and roll.

From Justin Bieber to Ozzy Osbourne, from Post Malone to Mick Jagger, from Lady Gaga to Pearl Jam. This producer defines and redefines so many careers from so many genres. It's like he cloned himself a thousand times. Originally from New York, this guy is basically everywhere, all the damn time,

but always, always on the charts. And the writer is Andrew Watt. Hey, we got you. That's pretty good, man. I should hire you. We finally got you on this thing. Yeah, I'm here. What took you so long?

Happy to be here. You never asked. Oh, okay. So you're obviously one of the most successful producers of the last decade. Who do you think are the best producers in music right now? Circuit. Really? Why?

Have you worked with him? Oh, yeah. I love circuit. The speed in which he works. And it's not about speed for him, but it's like the, small amount of time it takes him to make something sound good, just makes every session, every song, every, every moment in the studio just be good quicker, you know? Because an artist or, you know, writers are just like hearing something that's inspiring to them. And it's not like, hold on, give me a second, just get on headphones and like, you know, work something out for a little and you don't know what you're listening to and you're talking.

just right away. He just makes a slapper. It's weird. When you watch him work, you feel like you can do it also the way he does it, where it's just, it's fun to watch because you can kind of figure out some tricks here or there, but his sound choices and his ability to create really fast,

just it feels so effortless. It's like, oh, well, I'm going to do that too when I get in front of my computer. And I don't know how. How, you know. Couple of that with someone who's really calm also, you know, like because obviously what we do in, in the studio and in the room, it can get intense sometimes. There's a lot on the line. You can feel like that, you know, something's not going good.

Something's going great. It's just a lot of energy. He just stays kind of calm and cool. It's pretty great. What's your personality in a recording studio? The exact opposite. That's why me and him love to work together so much, because we have kind of a year. and yang thing.

If you're a high-energy producer, how do you keep a session focused? I mean, it's just different based on what artist I'm working with. It's always about the artist, right? It's like, and what they need at whatever time. I think it's just dependent on the artist. I'm not going to walk into a room with a certain band and be like bouncing off the walls because they'd be,

be like, how are you doing? You know, you got to kind of. So when you're with Pearl Jam or you're with the Rolling Stones, does your demeanor change? I'm kind of always myself and my t-shirt changes. But yeah, I love working with bands. I grew up playing in bands. A band dynamic is very different than working with a solo artist. It's the sum of all parts. It's the way. all of their internal timing. When I work with bands, I like to not use click tracks. So it's like a whole different thing of editing, comping. You know because you're on that computer all the time.

I think like what makes a great band, especially bands that we know already, great is like their internal clock, their internal heartbeat, the way, you know, someone can be ahead and the other person's behind. And I don't want to disrupt that because then it would just sound. like a gridded version of your favorite band. So I think that goes with the opinion of each person in the band as well. You know, you have to make sure everyone feels heard and everyone feels a part of it. You know, if you don't do that, then you kind of get enemies within a band and that's not a

place I like to be. You know, we know of bands that are the gritted versions of themselves that release music today. Yeah. You know, literally and metaphorically. And, you know, some of those bands don't really like each other internally. In your experience, what is it that the Rolling Stones, what did they do that kept them together for so long? They need each other. I think you could have, you can, you know, listen to their music.

apart from each other because they've made music so long. And it's all great, it's great music. But when they come together, they're that thing. Again, it's like, that's what makes bands so special, like the mix of the ingredients involved. When Keith Richards plays guitar and he sings, it's amazing. He has a lot of great solo albums that I love. We talk about all the time, and it's amazing.

When Mick Jagger is singing a riff over a riff that Keith Richards wrote, it's satisfaction. It's the rolling songs. It's like at just another level. So I think that's a really beautiful thing. The music keeps them together. And think about a band like that. They've been together in a band for over 60 years.

So crazy. Any relationship that's over 60 years is going to go up. It's going to go down. It's going to be closer than ever. It's going to be a part. It's like look at, you know, your parents or anyone in your, you know, do you even know anyone in your life that's had a relationship that long, you know? It's only natural. But I think it becomes like family at that point.

Do you feel the same way about Pearl Jam, about Ozzy and his band? Definitely. Well, Ozzy's a solo artist. But he's had a lot of the same players for a long time, right? Yeah. Yes. And I think if you, once you're in Ozzy's orbit, you're like always there. definitely for Black Sabbath.

Yeah. That's definitely a thing. Why are these bands coming to you? I have no idea. How do you, I mean, where is the jump from? I mean, isn't rock and roll dead anyway? No.

Come on. Like, I mean, obviously, I'm kidding about that. But, you know, here we are. Like, we're playing in this game where it's like, it's about points on the board. and people are always looking at charts. That's fun. That's like a video game.

That's like the video game. And then, you know, I think you love music. Like, and it's really inside of you. There's that part of business. And then there's like, what do I want to make? What makes me feel amazing? What could move me to tears? What, you know, makes me want to jump up and down.

And, you know, for me, that's, working with bands and working with people that are, you know, capturing, truly capturing lightning in a bottle. Yeah, I'm just incredibly lucky to get to work with those people. And honestly, I think you, to answer your question, you said why. I think it actually really did start with Ozzy. That was like those albums that I made with him were very different than the music I was known for making. What's the origin of meeting Ozzy and saying?

especially if the music that you had done before is so different, how do you convince, of all those people, he's, you know, the least pop? It goes back to Post, making those records with Post Malone. We were, when Post was spending a lot more time in L.A., now he's in Utah. You know, he'd go to have a drink at all the places that, you know, were popular at the and have terrible time there. And one night I brought him to the rainbow bar and grill because I thought he would like it there.

You know, he'd walk in there. It's like a different time. Every time you walk in there. And they play motorhead and all kinds of stuff that he likes. And so I brought him there to drink. Then he just started going all the time. He would kind of just be there almost every night. The studio that he was working out was very close to there.

So I got told the story that he bought a picture of Ozzy off the wall. because he always had cash in the car. And I had this picture in my mind of him walking down sunset holding this picture of Ozzy because his studio was close. And for whatever reason, my brain went, how cool would that be if Post did a song with Ozzy? You know? I think we were like, post at that time was making,

trying to think who were going to be the features on his album. Maybe that's why it came into my head. And so we got together. and with Lou and started making this idea for Post and Ozzy to get together and once it got a little further we sent it to him

he had just had his accident where he broke his neck so he was kind of out of commission for a little bit but like a month or so later they came back to us randomly being like Ozzy loves it and wants to do it so that's kind of where it all started It's crazy, right?

Yeah. To make something up in your head and then... When you think about great rock producers, we grew up in bands and, you know, listen probably the same kind of music growing up. And were you interested in who produced the albums when you were younger? Yeah. Brendan O'Brien loved the sound of his records.

Amazing. Rick Rubman, of course. course. Yeah. Always. I'm a student of the liner notes. Every from the horn players to the, you know, all. Do you remember where we met? You've been in my life for so long now. No. Where? We were, um, I remember this because a few people had said like, hey, have you worked with why yet? And I was like, nope, never, never met him. I haven't worked with them yet. And I was in Nashville, I think I was working with Selena, which was a coincidence. I want to say that that's what it was. I'm pretty sure it was. But it was a coincidence because Bieber was in town

playing and Post was opening for Bieber. I remember. And we met at the arena. At the arena. Yeah. And let me love you. Yeah, it was right. It was right around then. But it was like all, at the time all Post had like that was a hit was white. was White Iverson. Yeah. It wasn't like... We met in the pit. Yes.

Okay. And you had long hair. I did. That's true. The only other producer I can think of that had long hair when I met him that did alright too was Benny, you know? What was the difference? First of all, meeting you there.

And I remember you having, you had like so much energy. And you're like, I'm a guitarist. I produce. I do all. Like, you were so excited. You had sunglasses on. Maybe. That's plausible.

Look, man. that was cool. You got to wear sunglasses inside. I don't know. I don't remember if I was wearing sunglasses, but I take your word for it. Did cutting off your hair make you a better producer? No, I think it's just, it got really annoying one day. Actually, I would, you know, I'm always bending over to turn on amps and do all this stuff. And I was like, at Henson, in a session with post. And I was like, you know, going to turn an amp up. You know, they always have those candles around. my hair literally went Michael Jackson Pepsi commercial. Like it was on fire.

And Post and his manager and everyone in the room were just hysterically laughing as I was like, ah, like my head was on fire. And like they weren't helping me. They were just on the floor crying, laughing. So it didn't all burn. I mean, it was fine. It was like just funny. So that happened.

And then I was just, you know, I don't know, just feeling it one day. Shaved it. when you um uh you know it must have taken you a while when you walk into a room people were like i don't know who you are yeah for a while it's Andrew i was known as Jew Balvin for a while that's really funny okay let's go to the beginning um uh you were born yes that's cool yeah um what do your parents do my dad is an accountant works at like an auto parts company and my mom took care of us, which is very, very lucky. Do you have siblings?

I do. I have an older brother and an older sister. How many of them play music? No one. No one never in my family played music or did anything. How did you start playing music then? I just loved my dad would play me. all kinds of stuff and my brother would play me all kinds of stuff and how old are you uh 10 years older than you are okay so i grew up with you know the start of like napster and everything that was like

big when i was like 10 yeah right so i was getting all of the music you could get it was like anything you could hear anything you wanted um and so a guitar came into my life first a bass and for whatever reason the second a base was put into my hands I could just play it was like I know that sounds like fake but I could just play it is it is my hands work together it was just like oh I get this it was like that and then I like figured out how to play smells like teen spirit by nirvana and I was off smells like teen spirit on bass is pretty easy yeah one one one one four four um I played it every day since then I was like 10 Was it really instantaneously, like, recognizable to people around you that you were, that you had a skill?

Or was it that you loved it? Was it that you loved it or was it that you were good at it? I don't even really know. It's all I did. It just became like an obsessive thing. So, like, that was just me and my guitar. Having older siblings and your dad to introduce you to music. Yeah.

Huge. Did any of them, were any of them different from each other? Like, what music did your mom, dad, and siblings listen to? My dad played me all the old rock stuff. So Beatles, Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd. And my mom loved, like, Neil Young and Stevie Wonder, George Michael. And my brother was playing me everything in the 90s. So chili peppers, Pearl Jam, Nirvana, Tribe Called Quest, Wutte.

Clan, like I was getting 90s hip hop and grunge from my brother. So it was a really good kind of mix of what was going on. I mean, you named, you know, you're close to Chad. You know, you guys play a bunch of music. Best friend. You know, I see him in Malibu every once in a while. I should go up to him and be like, hey, I'm friends with a while, but I don't. That would be weird.

You should. But if you go up to him and say, hey, you look like Will Farrell. He'll go, handsome man. Yeah. That's my favorite thing he says. He does resemble him. You know, you name Pearl Jam. You named these people.

Interestingly, they didn't mention Rolling Stones, but you said the Beatles, which is interesting. Awesome. But what's it like growing up with these people? Is your expectation that you'll work with all those people you named? Oh, come on. It's, I don't really reflect on it. It's a hard thing.

Why don't you reflect on it? Because moving forward. Do you celebrate any of your success? Yeah. Celebrate. I love to have a good time, as you know. But it's hard. If you sit down and you're like, I worked with this person and this person, you're going to like, head's going to explode.

Yeah. It's amazing. You did post, though, that you and Chad were playing with Paul McCartney at one point. Yeah, I mean. Yeah. That was awesome. It's pretty close. Yeah, just

You're almost a beetle No What is What's the goal for you? Keep making music For as long as I Want to make music You know

I feel like so lucky And thankful Every day Don't you? Like You're in your amazing studio house Right now You know

Like you can just Wake up every day And be like My job is to make music. So as long as that can keep going, I feel like we're doing something right. I agree with you. You go to school for music for a minute, right? You go to NYU? Or is it not for music? It was. No, it was. It was. Went to Steinhardt for a semester. And then I went to the Clive Davis school for a semester. And I think I'm their first dropout, actually. Was that hard? Are you

proud of that? No, it's just funny. I mean, is your, that's hard. I mean, you know, Jews, you're supposed to finish school. Yes, that was the little moment in my, you know, in the arc of like the family relationship. Did they, were they

mad at you? Yeah. Oh, yeah. What gave you the confidence to just quit? I wanted to tour. I was, I got a gig touring, the artist that I got a gig playing with went number one in Greece. It's like the funniest.

It doesn't like... What's the story? I mean, the guy went number one in Greece and we got a tour of Greece. And so I was like, I'm going to Greece. I'm on tour, you know. I don't even think I got paid or somebody. I was just like, I'm going on tour. Or I got paid $100 a week or something like that.

Paid in grape leaves. Literally. And I couldn't, I just left. Just kind of just went. And then my phone was going, every time. My family would call me and they'd be like, what the hell are you doing? Did you ever question what the hell you were doing?

No. I just was following music. I just wanted to play so bad. And that's a big reason why I love working with band so much is because my inception point of music was just like playing, playing live, playing, getting to play my guitar. And so making music where that is like the whole thing is just so much fun. So you go, you tour around Greece. Tour around Greece. Artists gets dropped.

From Universal Greece? From Universal. He signed Interscope, but for some reason the song went big in Greece. Artist gets dropped. I had already dropped out of college. I'm living in, you know, one-bedroom apartment with a couple of my friends. And I just start playing every bar, restaurant. nightclub. As an artist at the time, right?

Just like, anyway, as an art, I'm playing Jimmy Hendrick cover bands. I'm playing at nightclubs with DJs. I'm playing anywhere that will have me while people eat dinner at restaurants, you know, like just anywhere I could, you know, make money playing music to keep, not have to go, can you help me go back to college? You know, that was like, that's what it was all about. Pay rent, do that. So that.

Could you pay rent from doing that? I did, yeah. And that led me because I was doing so many different types of things, that led me to start playing guitar for other people a lot more. And I got the Cody Simpson gig. What? Yeah. I played guitar for Cody Simpson. And I was like, you know, at that point, I was playing in a lot of rock bands. And I was like, I don't want to do, I don't want to play pop. I don't want to play in a pop band, you know. I'm like, And then I saw how much it was going to pay me a week. And I was like, I'm playing in a pop band, you know? And I'm like, what? I get to play at Jones Beach. I get to play at all these, you know, venues are romanticized to me.

The things that, you know, happened before there, the shows you know about, you know, famous appearances at venues. There's a lot of vibe in classic venues. What are the coolest venues in the U.S.? here? I think Red Rocks is. pretty amazing. You've been there? Yeah.

You know, the Beacon Theater. Every time you're in there, it has a certain weight to it. Obviously, Madison Square Garden. But even the Tribador is so classic. Amazing. Amazing. Yeah, I was in the Roxy the other night. Classic. It's just like, you think about, Jim Morrison was

hanging from the rafters there, you know? Yeah, so was Ross Golan when he was. Yeah, baby. I hope you were thinking that. You know, Cody Simpson is one of those guys that I think a lot of us, he would take outside songs and never questioned the songs. Yeah. And that was an era when it was like the A&R guy liked the song

and would be like, you sing this song. And it's like, okay. It was a whole different, it was a whole, whole different. Were you writing at all that point? He's become a great guitar player. Yeah. So I got that gig and I was just like, all right, I'm going to do this for two months, the summer tour. And then I'm going back to what I'm doing.

And I wound up there and then we got a gig opening up for Justin Bieber. And so I went on that tour. And then we toured the whole U.S. And I was in a tour bus. And then they were like, we're going to do a Europe tour. And then I was like, I have never been to these places in Europe. I'm going to go do that. So then I went and did that.

And then they were like, you're going to tour America again. And so we went back and it just was this thing that just kept going. And through that time, you know, when it was the obvious conversation comes, oh, we need singles. Do you know, do you write songs? I went from being the guitar player to the musical director to writing songs to producing songs. And I'll never forget. I was in talking about vibes of venues. I was in Dublin.

And I always would stay a little longer on stage. during sound check to like just play a little bit and listen to the venue and stuff like that. And I remember I was like in Dublin, I was playing like a U2 song or something like that. And I just hear drums behind me. And I turn around and it was Justin. And he and I just jammed without speaking for like probably like 30 minutes. It was just like we were just playing and doing all this kind of stuff.

And he would play a beat and I was, we were just playing together. And so that's how after we. said what's up and everything and that's how we became friends and so we hung out a lot after that we would just kind of make music together jam hang out do all kinds of stuff travel the world together and then we naturally started making music together and that's how um my career as a pop producer really started do you have a unique ability to meet people and and become friends with people or is it Do you think the guitar speaks for you? You can tell me if you agree, but I think our business is very much results-based.

Where, you know, you can talk and you can be fun to hang out with or meet. But once you start making music, if it sounds good and it feels good and the result is there and you're making something that's great, that's when it really kind of propels. when I first started working with Benny I said I remember saying well it's easier for you because you can just like you know you send in a song it's Benny Blanca like what are they going to do like they're going to release it and he goes no man you got it all wrong it's way harder their expectations is that I'm going to beat

everything I've ever done you know it's not like they're going to just say this isn't you know this isn't of that quality do you find that it's easier for Andrew Watt to get hits than somebody else who sends out a good song? I mean, people will take my call, right? If I say, I have a record that I think is great, I can get on the phone with who I need to get on the phone with

and get it heard. But again, it's results-based. So the filters that it has to go through, and if it's great, it's great. And if it's not, then it's not. We all make shitty songs. Come on. Everyone just hears the ones that are good.

Sometimes they hear the shitty ones. too. But my friend Joe London over here he said about hit songs, he's like, then more often than not, he admires the Czech more than the songwriting. I think there's sometimes you listen to songs where you're like, yeah, I don't know if that it's super inspires me, but I'm really envious to how successful this song is. But, you know, that said, you know, going from you're writing with Justin and whatnot. There's a really good story behind Let Me Love You. Oh my God.

You know, that's really the, your coming out party is like, I'm now at the top. But it wasn't when you were getting it done. You know, it feels like, you know, you were in the hustle. Oh, my God. How do you get Let Me Love You, Mid? That's a long story. How much time you got? Well, I know the story a bit, so that's why I think, uh, let's go.

Did you work on a version of that song? No, I didn't, but I'm familiar with some. You go ahead. You tell me the story. So that song, I've written the demo of like the, you know, basically just a guitar vocal version of that song. That was the first song that Ali Temposi and I ever wrote together, who we still write songs to this day.

It was me, her, Brian Lee, and Lou. And at that point, Lou was like really kind of more like running the Pro Tools rig and stuff like that, but also is one of the greatest writers and producers of all time and ended up writing and working on that song as well. But no one was in their, you know, no one had really found their thing yet. So I went to a party that Ali Tamposi was throwing. and I left my guitar there because I drank too much. And the next day I was freaking out

because it was like the only guitar I had in L.A. And it was an old Martin. And I was texting her, texting her, calling the Chateau. I'm like, I left a guitar in one of the rooms there. So she drives me the guitar the next day because I wouldn't leave her alone about it. And she came into the studio.

I was there with Brian. and I just showed her this riff and we started writing this song. And for whatever reason, that song went around, just like at that time. If you write a good song and it's on the guitar, everyone's going to hear it, right? You know, all the usual suspects. And it got its hands into, you know, a lot of different places. At the time, my relationship was really close with Justin. And so I sent him that song and he loved it.

He loved the acoustic guitar version and was like, yes, I definitely want to cut the song. I have ideas for it and everything. So it was sitting with him, but also at that time and being new in the business, everyone sends it to their own person and their manager and everyone starts doing their thing with the song. So it was my first experience with the song that everyone really wanted, but I didn't even understand that, you know, all of these different people could have this song and want the song. It just had never happened before. So it started being the situation where, you know, Neil Jacobson had the song.

I think literally the amount of artists that have cut this song is insane. While you're telling me the story, you should pick up the guitar behind you and you should play the instrumental with the accuser. You put that guitar there on purpose. I sure did. I'm not stupid. But you're not going to let me. I have a long career here, man.

It's not by accident. I don't remember it. It's not in tune. It's your fault. I'm just going to. It's something like, it was like fokey, blackbirdy kind of. Oh, interesting how much of the melodies and the...

And then, yeah. Don't you give up? So that was that kind of thing. And Ali just heard that riff and just kind of loved it. So anyway, what started happening was I was like, yeah, Justin loves it. He's gonna cut it and everyone's cool. I don't even to this day know who sent the song around

to everyone else once they heard it. But stems flew around and all kinds of stuff, you know, got to different people. And before I knew it, DJ Snake was putting all these different people on the song and trying it with this person, trying it with that person. And other people were going into sessions

with, you know, people involved, and they were trying the song on artists. Everyone wanted the song. So this feels very wrong to me, right? Especially because my relationship with Justin means everything to me. We're friends more than anything. And we've been making music together and he's, you know, trusting in me as like a, you know, a young new songwriter.

He could work with anyone he wants. And he is, you know, wanting songs for me and wanting to hear my songs. So I had to like put a stop to this, like kind of immediate. but I had no clout, right? So I'm like, who do I get on the phone? So I end up on the phone with Neil Jacobson at the time who has DJ Snake. And I was like, everyone stopped cutting this song. This is a Justin Bieber song.

It's like, take everyone off, take everyone that's trying. This is like what this is supposed to be. And through Neil, I end up going to meet with John. And that's how I met John Janick originally. And so once they realized that it was like my song and, you know, the beginning of the production was with me and everything, they were really, really respectful of that. They didn't even know who wrote the song. It was just this song that was getting sent around by people. So we kind of got it to be like at like square one again. And, you know, there was a few different versions of production.

that people were trying and everything like that. And I kind of just had to like, that was the first moment for me that I had to just like stop everything and kind of like control how my record was gonna get made because it was like the Wild Wild West. And it's also not fair to other artists to be told by someone that has nothing to do with the song. You can have the song, right?

And then have it taken away from them. That's also not good. and doesn't feel good. So DJ Snake's production was amazing, like really amazing. And that was right at the height of, like, the DJ becoming the super producer. Remember that era? NMPA is the premier organization for music publishers and their songwriter partners. It's their mission to increase the value of music, and that's exactly what they do.

NMPA is working right now to raise royalty rates for songwriters from streaming. services, radio, social media, and everywhere, music is essential. From the courts to Congress, NMPA works to get songwriters what they deserve. I know because I've served on the board before, and I'm the current co-chair, along with Ryan Tetter and Liz Rose, for the Golden Platinum Club. So again, thank you NMPA for supporting and the writer is and songwriters everywhere. And that was right at the height of like the DJ becoming the super producer. Remember that era? And like we had so, so much success, Ali and I and Brian with these

DJs. And that was kind of like the first one, but that was like in the height of Avichy and all that stuff and those songs. And we eventually got Justin to hear the DJ Snake production, which was very different than the acoustic record that he had liked at the time. And, you know, he liked it and showed it to some of his friends and all that stuff, and he wanted to record the song. Now, he did record the song. And at the time, he also had a song, another song, called Cold Water. That was with Major Laser, which was also a very similar thing.

And Bannie and Ed and Diplo and everything. And it's Justin Bieber with the DJ. So the, you know, opinion within the camp, became he can't these two records can't exist together at the same time now if you take like the 21 year old version of me or however old I was at that time I was a little older than that was that 2015 I don't even know um and you tell me I have a potential Justin Bieber DJ Snake song that's in question of coming out because there's this other song like I'm going like balls to the wall you know guns blazing to get this thing across the finish

line it was like the closest thing for us to have like our first song so a lot of stuff happened and a lot of moving around to get it to be you know out there and and come out and be able to live alongside the other song and with the timing of everything and it takes you know as you know it takes it takes take so much more than just the people making a song for a song to be successful. It's the team, it's management, it's the label, it's promotion, it's everything. You know, it takes an army to make a hit song. So everything had to be aligned. And at the end of the day, it was Justin's call for that song to come out. And it did, and it did what it did. And yeah, there's a lot, a lot longer version of that story, which we'll have to do a part too.

Wasn't they like Tokyo? What does Tokyo have to do with the story? Leave that part out of the... Okay, cool. We, you know, the other... Let's just stick with songs that are in that DJ-ish world. Like, It Ain't Me as another one of those. Yeah.

Like... Amazing. How do you get... You know, Selena wasn't doing those features either at the time back in. No, she wasn't, but like in that time in L.A., we were all kind of friends. That was a really cool time in L.A. And, you know, the age that we all were, everyone was kind of like going out, socializing together. And, you know, it was like a great, you were hanging out with the artists that you were working with or going to a bar or going whatever.

And we became really good friends. And so I developed a relationship with her where I could just kind of send her songs. And she would tell me what she liked or if she needed a song or wanted something like something else, we would kind of talk that way. So I sent her that demo when, right when we had made it, and the beginning of the Kigo production was on there. She was like, I love this. That's like a not real story because she cut it like a few days after and it came out like a couple months after that.

That literally never happens. Yeah, of any songs. Well, Wolves was a different story too, wasn't it? Yeah, I think, I think so. but that song and how quick it was like artist loves it gets recorded and then it comes out with a great plan that was like you know i don't think i ever had a song that come out that fast what was it what is alley tamposi brian lee andrew watt what was the why did the three of you guys worked so well, what is it that you guys did together that you couldn't do individually or with

other people? I wrote with you and Ali, we didn't write a hit. What is it that they, like, what is it between the three of you at that time that made it great? I think we had a few of those like DJ hits in a row and our structure started being writing for that, you know? It was like verse pre-chorus post, which is the drop. Right? And Brian, it's amazing with melodies, right? And amazing with like big melodies. You know, there's a certain math that's involved with a certain type of pop music.

And especially at that time, I think maybe it's not as important anymore. But at that time, it's very, you know, like the house that Max built, that kind of, you know, the Swedish math. Brian really understood it. And I was good with the chords and kind of also good with melody, but not, I didn't, wasn't thinking about it in that math way. And Ali just wrote the most amazing, you know, painful, but emotional lyrics. And Ali was getting sober at that time as well and dealing with her own sobriety. And a lot of that came into the songs.

And I think it was just kind of, you know, a perfect storm of the three of us. We all did different things. We all had so much respect for each other. And we had so much fun kind of writing those songs. The run you guys went on and you individually from, you know, 2017, 2019, right before COVID, is pretty crazy. Obviously, it went on through that. But seniorita just like, you know, out of here, you know, Havana, out of here. But what's so interesting about these songs is how many kids.

collaborators it takes to write a hit song. And in an era where I feel like we need to stop giving, publishing to people who aren't writers, it seems like all these songs had some contribution from a lot of different people. How do you manage all the egos when you write these songs with a lot of writers? You know, I agree with you, by the way, what you just said. And I think I always kind of just maintain the thing in my brain that if the collaborators, the people that were in the studio writing the song from inception were always treated fairly and always equal, then we could always make music together going forward. And as long as the team felt good, like all of us first,

then we were the consistent ones on the next record and on the next record and on the next record. And, you know, you always, there's always, you know, especially at that time, there was always some times where people were trying to take advantage of a situation or be unfair. And then we never worked with those people again. Yeah, yeah.

So, you know, I always believe the greatest way to split something when you're in a group is equal because it's everyone together. And then no one feels this certain type of way. The decisions are being made because of what's best for the art and not for a financial reason. At what point did your parents lose the resentment that you didn't finish school?

When I started, you know, when I was touring and I could like really, you know, my paycheck got bigger by the week. It was, and they were coming to see me at all these great places and everything. I think they were, they were happy about that. So. What's a better song? It wouldn't take a long time.

What's a better song, Signorita or Havana? It's like my children, man. I don't know. They're both. What a weird question. I just felt like it was a weird question and would get a weird answer. That's called, I've given you some weird answer. That's called clickbait.

I gave you some of that. Yeah, you're doing all right. Havana is annoying because it's definitely a song that, you know, all those songs that people who haven't written pop songs yet and are like, oh, it's so easy to write a hit song. I could write it. Have you heard Havana? It's because it's like it's so effortlessly simple, but it's so hard to make that. Let me tell you something. I will never forget, Allie Tamposie.

You know, sometimes you see, human beings are unbelievable. Like, they have certain points where they, like, it's Michael Jordan level and they are, you know, like, they have superpowers. Like, you know that feeling when you see someone just go in a booth and you're like, holy shit, what just came out of you? Like, it's one of the most amazing things. Only we know that experience. Like somebody just goes in, taps all the way in. And it's not like, let's talk about our feelings, it's just someone on a mic, they're separate from you,

and they're just doing their thing. We had this conversation with Camila. She wanted to write a song about Havana, because that's where she's from. And I'm sitting with Allie, and we had just had let me love you. And Havana, we're like, what rhymes with Havana? And we're Havana. She's saying all this stuff.

And I'm like, Nana. I'm like, it's another Nana song. She just looked at me, went in the book, booth and literally spit that entire thing out, like that whole hook, everything, you know. So it was, it was amazing to watch. It was like, there's three people in the room, but everyone's applauding, you know, she, she bodied that. I brought post up where, you know, we were in that pit listening to White Iverson and

being like, that sounds sick. And he opened with it and closed with it, which is always my favorite thing when the artist doesn't have enough songs, right? It's like, okay, I'm going to give it to you at the top and I'm going to give it to you the end. But here's the, here's the great part about when, when writers come up is that

if you're, if you're, if you're, if you're, if you're three steps further than you were at that time, and you meet post and you have this relationship with them, somebody who's three steps earlier probably would have done

that project because you'd already be working with somebody, you'd be busy doing something else. You totally miss the opportunity. This is the idea that I think a lot of writers, like, I want to get, if I got into bigger rooms, I would have hits too. It's like, no, man, you don't understand.

That's not how it works. It's like friends, like you and Lou and Post come up at the same time. So it's like you guys weren't the biggest writers in the room. You guys just wrote the biggest songs. And it's when you walk into a room. room with the young writers, it's important to tell them that they have the skills in that room to write a worldwide number one song, not all rooms, but many of them, it's not, there's no bigger room than the room that you, Lou, and Post had together. That was the big room. You just didn't

have the credits yet to like call it what it is. Yeah. You know, tell me about your relationship, how it started with Post. exactly what you said. I was signed to Republic as an artist and kind of at that same time as Let Me Love You, you know, I've left the Beaver tour to be an artist and play rock and our car, you know, breaks down and we're in a tow truck getting to Reno

and I hear Let Me Love You on the radio. And I'm just like, fuck this. I'm not doing this anymore. You know? Like our band's getting towed. It pivot. And so Post and I had met, though, through all the Republic. Like, there's like pictures of us like in the Republic, like, you know, freshman that year.

We're like in the thing. And we just had an instant bond. And Lou was like, had an instant bond with Post as well. And Lou and I were so close. So the three of us just kind of started making me. music together and having fun and post has the exact same music taste as me. So we could just play guitar together and play a million covers. I think what happens when you're, you know, everyone's on the same level is you really learn to trust each other and you're uninhibited.

Like you can say, I don't really like that to each other, right? There's no like, I'm sitting in the room with Post Malone and I have to just shut my mouth or I'm going to get thrown out of this room. It's like, no, you say what you feel and what you, your opinion, you're there to give your opinion. And I try and still be that way no matter who I'm in the room with. I think that's a very important thing for writing songs, being a producer. You are not there to just smile and not you're there for your opinion. Even if you have imposter syndrome, which happens to me all the time, And you think, why the hell am I here? Why does this person even need me?

They can do this without me. You're there to give your opinion. That's why they want you there. Otherwise, they would just do it themselves. So I think it's really important to, if you're, you know, when you're in the studio, you're dealing with wet paint. You leave the studio, paint starts to dry. So while you're in that room and the paint is wet, give your opinion.

Say what you think. Even if it's dumb, you can preface it with, this might be the worst. idea in the world, but however you need to do it, say what you feel because you're right in the process where the art is getting sculpted. And so I still do that kind of every day. It's a big, big, you know, part of the way I do what I do. But when I think back to that time of being kind of like with Post and Lou, and in that time, we were all just saying whatever we felt all the time. And I think that's how you build relationships with people. And yeah, the second you don't do that, you're just, you know, you're there for the wrong reasons.

How did Stay get made? Stay got made. That song is like probably, that song set me free, I would say. It was the first artist to ever make a song with me that wasn't like, let's get a hit, let's get a hit. Like, it was just on guitars. It wasn't about, you know, what we could make, what it could be and what everyone's going to think. It was just like, let's just make something that we love.

We had been talking about George Harrison so much, so we just, like, sat with two acoustic guitars and we're, you know, pushing each other on how we could get the changes to be, you know, different for a regular song. And I think that's one of the first post songs with the main. major seven chord in there. And I remember kind of showing him that chord. And it's in like almost every one of his, he loves that chords. Almost every one of his songs after it. But it was like, I brought him to Henson. It was the first time he had ever been in that studio. And I brought him

into the live room. Josh Goodwin was engineering. And he was like, can I talk to you outside for a second? And I went outside and he was like, man, I'm really uncomfortable here. He's like, I need to, like, be able to smoke and, like, drink and, like, this place is too nice for me. Can we, like, go somewhere else? I was like, everything's all set up and everything. I was like, give me two seconds. So, like, run into Ferrielle's office who's the sweetest, greatest person in the world. I'm like, I need him to be able to smoke cigarettes in here.

I know that's, like, sacrilegious. Send me a bill. I got to have him smoke. Otherwise, we're going to have to, like, leave. And so she, for whatever reason, decided that she would let that happen. And so you can light up in there. We bought a cooler of a bunch of beers and everything. And that was like one of the first times I realized like, okay, you got to like build the vibe for whoever is coming that is signature to them in order for them to feel comfortable.

If an artist is not comfortable, they cannot create. You could be in the greatest studio in the world. But the vibe has to be right for, for, you know, the person that you're working with. So we sat there with two guitars. That thing kind of just fell out. he put the whole melody down, had that chorus, took it home. I stayed, added the bass, added the slide guitar, all the stuff that we kind of talked about before. Came in the next day, he said, wrote this on the bowl this morning, showed me the lyrics.

They were unbelievable, put the cigarette out on my face. All this, like, insane, like, you know, graphic, amazing, like lyrics that were over this kind of, you know, you know, beatily like guitar. It was like something that was just felt like there was so much contrast. And that was that song. And I think that was the first time I was allowed to like, allowed by the artist I was working with to make something that just had nothing to do with pop. It was like very freeing.

And it was, you know, a lot of people's favorite thing I had made at that point. And then it becomes pop. I mean, you know, the irony of that is that it's like you're, you moving away from pop. it becomes the quintessential pop artist of, you know, the next five years. And that sound of him with the guitar and, you know, the vocal sound. When we work together, maybe we've worked together more than once, but I know we worked at Henson and it was,

and I think you just wanted to do like a couple days of doing some co-writes while you might have been doing others. I don't remember what the reason was, but I've only, you know, maybe I've been to Henson a dozen times or something like that. But I was trying to remember where we worked. And then you said, I was like, oh, right. That became your spot. Yeah.

We still work there all the time. They're amazing there. Amazing stuff. How do you build a vibe for Miley Cyrus? That we worked on at my studio, which, you know, I had a house in Beverly Hills. It was Charlie Chaplin's manager's old house and we put a studio. In the theater, there's not a lot of basements in Beverly Hills. And this was like kind of this basement studio.

And yeah, we made plastic arts there with Allie and Teter and Lou as well. And yeah, that was like the first studio I kind of set up. That was my own. And unfortunately, when L.A. was flooding during like, the pandemic, like right after the pandemic, it got badly flooded and then there was mold, so we had to move everything out. And we finally have another spot again. But we made so many records in that, in that basement.

It was amazing. Peaches was a big song. Yeah, that was made in that basement too. Justin, Justin, I remember when he came over to my house just by himself and what should we do? And he was kind of seeing how my studio was set up. and bouncing around. And I was like, go on the drums. And like we were jamming.

And then he went on the piano. He played like every instrument and then just got on the mic. And Haley was there. And I think he was just trying to like impress her in a really sweet way. Like his wife was there. And he was just staring at her. And that's where, you know, all those lyrics kind of came. And he was just staring at her and doing it.

And then randomly, Sean Mendes was also there. So Sean Mendes is sitting in there. And Haley is there. And he's just like kind of staring. at both of them. It's like this one big room. And he was just kind of like trying to flex in front of Sean, but also like impress his wife.

And he just beasted that whole hook. It was amazing. Next time we write together, I'll invite Haley and Sean. I feel like I see Sean around quite a bit. Do you start thinking it's easy? Like, is it easy for you? I don't know.

I've never thought about that. I genuinely, it sounds like bullshit or like a stock answer, I wake up every single day excited to go make music. You never know what it's going to be, you know. And what's so much fun about, you know, all the different genres in which I work in is that it all takes kind of like a different set of tools, you know. Working with Justin is very different than working with the Rolling Stones. So I get really excited to do both of those different things. And after you finish an album that you've been working on that has no gritting and Pro Tools is basically a tape machine,

then you get excited to make some dance music and have fun programming. It's all the different things are fun. Do you get emotionally wrapped up in any of the music? All the time. I think if you don't. Do you get hurt by music not working? Oh, no, not in that way. I meant like sometimes, I don't know if you've ever had experience of like you make a song

and you like are just love it so much or you're so moved by it or you can't believe that you got to be a part of it and you're just like listening back and, you know, you're bring yourself to tears. But that's like the before. I mean, I know other musicians are like this too. Like I can listen to demos all day. Demos are stunning. you're like, this, this feels special.

The minute that somebody releases it, I don't listen to it anymore. It's like, I'm done with it. But the demo phase is so exciting. And that could be years because some of these songs take for a long time to come out where you're just like, ah. I'm so, I'm so detail-oriented in my mixing process. And, you know, the production process, obviously there's not a thing in like a millisecond of any of my records that I don't know exactly what it is and what it's doing and what. why it's there.

So mixing a record is a very intense process for me. And when that is finished and I'm listening down to that before I'm like, all right, let it out. Once it's out, I'd never listen to it again. If I did listen to it, I would want to change 100 things. But I remember hearing the song on the last Stone's album that had Gaga and Stevie Wonder on it. It's called Sweet Sounds of Heaven. It's like six minutes or something like that. And it's just like people in a room jamming and they build and you don't know why they're

building and it's just humans doing superhuman things. And that was a really, listening to that finished was an incredibly emotional experience for me. What's your favorite demo that you've ever done? Like you mean like that the artist is not on or even just like demo production? I mean, this song there you're just like this is amazing. And before the artist cut it. Hopefully I haven't made it yet. I don't know. I can't think.

What's your relationship with Lady Gaga like? Amazing. Just saw her the other day. That was such an amazing learning experience. Why? Because she is such a force and is like you're working with her and sometimes she's there. And then other times she's not there and you realize when she's, She's not, you know, I mean, she's physically there, mentally, she's somewhere else.

She's seeing, like, the entire movie of what she's about to create. I mean, it's a different level of artistry, you know. I mean, if you get a chance, you have to go see the mayhem ball. Did you go? I didn't. But I heard it's incredible. It's like going to the theater. Yeah.

It's she is seeing when she is put, when she says a lyric out loud on the microphone, she is seeing like a movie. You know, she's seeing like the whole world that she's going to create. And I've never worked with somebody as visual as her and kind of understanding that, you know, when you're producing an album, you want it to all be cohesive and work together.

But past that, it has to, you know, be able to be something that aesthetically will work together visually. And that was like she taught me so much about that in that process. I'm going to jump a little bit all over the place but this is your fault

for having so many songs it's okay so you can do as long as you want cut out the R. Kelly stuff I ain't cutting that out die with a smile

that was a big song it still is yeah it still is but it doesn't sound like everybody else is pop song no I know

I know Bruno's like he's famous for because we've had D Mile on I've known that guy for a while D Mile on D. Mile, that's another person.

You said, who are your favorite producers? Circuit and D. Mile. God damn, D. Mile is talented. That's what I'm going to see after this. Nice. The two girls together. What makes D.M.M.R. He's just forget about anything else.

He's one of the greatest musicians you could ever have in the room. And he's wise. He's like a Buddha of some sort, you know? Like, you can like, you know that feeling. Like we all understand theory and we, well, not all of us do, but, you know, if you do, you can get a little further with, you know, when you're in the creation of why something needs to be the way it is, you know, and somebody's like, why does it have to be that way? You can explain it. Demile is just like, he doesn't even have to explain it. He just knows, like, you know, his knowledge of theory and chords and melody and.

stretching out. There's a big part of him that is, you know, jazz-oriented. And that comes into his music as well. So it's just like one level deeper. And I think he is somebody, like, listen to the harmonies on Die with the Smile. Listen to how those two voices work together.

And some of those notes that Gaga is singing with Bruno and it doesn't take away from the melody. That's a very complicated melody. And there's two huge voices singing together in the mix, very loud, but yet you could still sing along with the melody. That is because the exact right notes are hit in the harmony where it becomes like a co-lead and it's not distracting from what makes the song a hit. That's D. What's it like to work with Bruno Morris? Amazing.

He is the most talented and the first. and the funniest motherfucker you will ever be around ever. It's just like my favorite person to hang out with. Send shit back and forth to he is actually hilarious. And if you work with people that you can laugh with, you're winning, you know? I'm going to go back to seven, which, you know, here it's like the post-BTS or the solo story of B.T. really kind of begins with John Cook doing his stuff outside of it. Yeah.

He had featured on like the Charlie song and some of these others, you know. But Seven's so big. Yeah. Do you think of that? Do you think of K-pop in the same way in the success you've had in K-pop? Do you think of that in the same way you think of the success you've had in pop or rock? Is there a different? I really don't think of music like that.

And I also, I listen to see what's going on a little bit, but I don't listen to new music that much. I listen to, if I really like something, of course I am, I listen to it. But I'm not studying new music to see why it's working or what it is or how it is. I just make music that I enjoy that I want to make. What music do you listen to? I listen to like the same shit always. I mean, I listened to David Bowie and The Cure and Depeche Mode and a lot of disco, Blondie, and then all the 90s stuff still.

I mean, I listened to the same stuff that we talked about earlier. Totally. The Beatles. I listened to the Beatles. We have to talk about the prank. We do have to talk about the prank. I think that's why it took you so long to invite me on this show. You think so?

Are you over it yet? Yeah, I'm over it. Do you actually even know what really happened? I would like to hear it from your side. I told you what happened. I called you. I called you. I told you.

Yeah. This is a long time ago. It was. Yeah. So to understand my personality, you have to understand that my heroes in life are Adam Sandler and Eddie Vedder, right? So those two things come together and make me. That's what I was raised on. And I got to be in Happy Gilmore this year.

Yeah, I know. It's going to say, congrats. Thanks. He's awesome. I love prank phone calls. And that's actually the last prank phone call I ever made because of the damage it did is I'm just too good, you know? And so it was in a session with Allie and I think Justin and I think Justin. and I was like, what should we do?

We were having a get down moment, and I was like, I'll do a prank. And prank phone call. And so I just had this thing with a prank phone call where I don't think too hard. It has to be like off the cuff and stuff just kind of flies out. So we were just kind of like looking through our phones. And I don't remember who said, Ross Golan. I was like, perfect. Oh, Ali was like, do someone from the music business, right?

Like, we have to do someone from the music business to see what happens. So we're going through. I think Aaron Bayshuck got skipped through or that almost happened or whatever. And for whatever reason, you were the winner. I won the lottery. You won the lottery. So there's no conversation beforehand. I'm just, I just go, right?

So I got on the phone and I decided to make an accent. I called you from, I believe, a private number. Probably. And talk to you. And I just said, hey, Ross, it's Tobias Jester Jr. And you were like, hey, man, what's up? I had never met Tobias at this point. I'd never even been in the same room with him.

I just picked a random writer that, you know, would just, I think would work because he was a really successful, awesome writer, but someone that I didn't know. And I, am I supposed to recount all of this? No, you know, you could just have whatever the story is. I'm just curious. Well, you remember this? I'll tell you my side after. Okay, okay, great. So I called you and I pretended to be very upset Tobias Jesser Jr.

for you not letting him on the writer is. Yeah. Which we're on now. And, you know, I made up all this stuff. And then for whatever reason, you started coming back. You were like, that's not what happened and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And we are shitting our pants in the studio because it's working. Usually you're playing phone call.

It's like, hey, this person, you're like, fuck you. Can hang up, right? But you're like, I talk to your manager and this and that and blah, blah, blah. And like, for whatever reason, I struck a nerve. I was in. And then I was flying. So that went on for a while and I was just going back and forth while simultaneously muting you and crying of laughter. Ali was like basically felt like she did an ab workout after that.

Right? Okay. So this goes on and on and on. And then I think I said, like, you know, always my favorite part. And the old prank phone calls are that when they reveal their voice or whatever, or say something, and then like the other person knows that they were just pranked and they can live with that. So I don't remember exactly what I said is this is a long time ago, but I think it was along the lines of like me doing like some kind of voice where I was like, hey, eat me. And then I hung up, right?

Probably said something like that. And then that was it. And we laugh, laugh, laugh, I think finished the song or, you know, ate some pizza. And then that was it. So months go by, don't hear anything, forget about it. And I'm talking to a friend of mine who is a manager and is just telling me like, or they start working for a management company and they're like, man, I'm just dealing with some drama with one of my writers that I'm working with and just having

trouble and they tell me this story that the right. writer is Tobias Jester Jr. And there is some drama between you and this writer that they, you know, for saying a rude thing that he had never said and like this whole long thing. And I'm just sitting around the phone. I'm like, oh my God. This is like months after. This is like a long time after.

And so I'm listening to the whole story. And then I'm like starting to have, you know, my Jewish guilt kicks in hardcore. I'm like, oh my God. This happened. And then that happened. Like, he was like, you know, blocked from sessions and like all this kind of stuff. You have a really big, you know, reach, Ross. So I just am like, okay, you need to sit down.

Are you sitting down? I was to talk to my friend at a certain point. And he's like, yeah. And I tell him the story. Yeah. And he's like, goes ballistic, like actually ballistic. because he had been dealing with this shit in real time. He's like, you don't understand?

Like, this fucking shit's happening to him everywhere he goes. He went to a concert and Zane Lowe said, hey, eat me, dude, and like laughed. He's like, what are you talking about? He's like, why did you say that to Ross? Why did you treat Ross like that? Like, Zane Lowe is like fucking bothering this guy about something that he didn't say.

And he's like, I never said it. I never said anything. He didn't even know what these people were talking about. And he's like telling his manager, I never did that. And they're like, is this guy a sociopath? Like, is he telling us the truth? So I caused a lot of ruckus. So then I said, let me pick up the phone and call Ross and tell him what happened.

So all of this could end. And I picked up the phone and called you, told you some version of that story, right? And I thought all was forgotten. But every time I see Tobias, he doesn't really talk to me. Oh, well, I mean, all I know is, you know, I had met Tobias three days before. So what you do? What are the odds? So what you don't know is that I was at a studio.

I meet him three days or four days before, literally. So the call from Tobias was right. Like, had you called four days before, I would not have known. I would have been like, I don't even know who you are, bro. And you would have hung up and been like. I would have been like, I don't even care. Yeah. Like I just don't care.

Had you called two months later, I'd be like, well, that's, you're holding on to some shit, bro. But because we were just talking about it, three or four days before. Unbelievable. But all's forgiven. Love you. What happened? No, come on.

Well, okay. I mean, look. I told that whole, I just took, you can edit this thing down anyway. I get a call from. Let's air it out on the podcast. Let's go. All right. Well, tell you, tell management that you got to stay for a little extra longer.

That's fine. I got to stay longer. Okay. So. What time is it? Okay. I'll stay for another hour. Here we go.

We don't even need that much time. What, you don't want me? I do. I want you for about, I'll give you a half hour. Okay. I get a call from, I get a call. I pick it up and it's like, hey man, it's Tobias. Oh, what's up, Tobias?

I just met you three days ago. How you doing, man? You know? It's believable. Yeah, totally good timing. Yeah, yeah, really good at break. I didn't even know what his voice sounded like. But I don't either.

I only met him once three days before. Outside of a studio. Okay. And it was like, oh, shit. shit, we know each other. We should hang sometime. So it was like, we had just talked about it. Like, you know?

And so it was like, fuck you. I'm not going to end. By the way, I think it was like a block number. So I didn't, you know, who knows? I just wasn't paying attention, you know. Were you offended? Well, I'm a songwriter. So like my love language is, is, you know, words affirmation.

So when somebody's like, fuck you, you're kind of like, oh my God. This is like, I've done. I'm a bad human, and I did something wrong. And so it struck a nerve. Especially because, like, yeah, I kind of get like the random shit with this podcast sometimes. You know, it's like people want to be on, people don't. It's like, I mean, I'm just trying. We're just doing the thing, right?

You know what this sounds like? An amazing prank call. Yeah, sure does. So I called him, I called his manager. I got his number and I called his manager. And I was like, I called our team. And I was like, yo, I don't know. what we did, but like, Tobias, Justice Genius really pissed off with us. And I call his manager,

and I'm like, yo, what the fuck? Why the fuck did he call me and do that? Like, that's not cool, man. I don't know. But like, yes, now it sounds like a really good prank. And he's like, I don't know, man. I'll go find out. Yeah, like, he believed you. So he calls Tobias. It goes, Tobias says he doesn't, it just doesn't sound like something. I'm like, look, man, I believe you. I believe it wasn't Tobias. but somebody said that they were Tobias. I don't, I'm just telling you what happened. It's just what it is. Tobias calls me and listen, man, it wasn't me.

I trust you. I trust you. I swear it wasn't me. I literally, I believe you, it wasn't you. I'm just saying somebody called and said it was you. And so I'm calling your manager to let you know that. And now I'm talking to you about this call that I got. And, you know, I don't like block people from,

like shit. I don't like, you know, I do think there are a lot of people have my best interest in the music business, but I don't think like, I don't think that like there was anything intentional. I hope nothing ever. Obviously, the guy won songwriter of the year, the first year of the Grammys, which I'm proud to have some part to do at the Grammy. Me too. It's great. You know, but it was a moment of like, yeah, I mean, I don't understand. I don't understand the odds of getting that call three days after. So when you called and said, and there's video of this somewhere. No video. No, somebody has it on their phone, I think.

No. Doesn't Allie have it on her phone? I thought somebody had it on their phone. Really? If there is, then I would love to see that. No, I would love it too. And if we do, it's going to make this episode. Yeah, let's track it down.

Yeah, yeah. If only we knew the people who were in the room. No, it was definitely in like that moment of like, maybe it's like you kind of like, when you called me and said it, it was like, oh okay this now makes sense it feels weird for me and tobias and neither of i said anything to do with it but like you have not uh i mean you when you won your grammy i'm sure i texted you just congrats absolutely like i don't have any ill well no no no like i'm just an idiot i just want you to know like like the damage that was caused was the odds of knowing him having met him three days

before it's unbelievable it's really unbelievable sounds meant to be a little bit. It sounds really meant to be. And I'll just go on the record and say, again, I'm so sorry, Tobias. We never meant to cause you any pain. And we love you. And you're so talented and amazing. Deserve all the accolades and success. You have. The three of us should do a session. Tomorrow. We should literally do a session. We should film the session. And, and like, we should just do the thing. I'm in. Are you? I'm in. Okay. Tobias. Are you in? Okay Hey, I'm sorry to hear about Ozzy, man

In a moment of like sincerity, I know that he like had a huge part of your life Yeah It's really hard for me to talk about And I think about him Every day all the time It's really fresh still So

How was your relationship with him? Did you talk to him every day? Yeah, we talked every day. and he was the funniest texter you could ever imagine in your life. And those texts took him like an hour to write and were very long, but he did them one finger at a time. And I miss those texts so much. This unbelievable journey he had on this planet.

And I am so thankful to have been a very small part. of that journey. He was a huge, huge part of mine. And for whatever reason, we were put together on this earth at this time when we both really needed it for different reasons. And he used to always say there's so many people on this planet and yet you meet so few of them. And it's no coincidence that you meet the people you meet. They're in your life for a reason. So I really believe that he was in mine for many reasons. But I believe it was fate. Well, thank you for being one of the people I've met on this planet. Yes. You know, it's like the fate part of things where you, you know, there's no reason why any of us should be sitting in a room together in any capacity.

It's fate that I print called you. It really is really remarkable, man. There's, I feel like we'll end up having part two and part three and part four of this now that you've been on the podcast already. Yes, I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for asking me out. I really did think I was banned. I don't think that hard, man. Oh, okay.

I will say there are, okay, the people who know me know that there's a list. You're not on my list. So there you go. Thank you. It's a short list, but there are some people where you're like, yeah, there are definitely some people who have asked to be on the podcast where I'm like, you do not remember how you treated me on the way up. That's also a big thing.

And Ozzy actually always used to say you just reminded me, be really careful the way you treat people on the way up because you're going to see those same people on the way down. It's very true as well. All right, man. Well, thanks for being on. Thanks, man. We hope you enjoyed this episode. It was produced by me and Joe London in association with Mega House Music Group.

If you like this episode, go give us a rating at wherever you listen to your podcast. And make sure to follow us at And The Writer is on all your socials. We'll see you next week.