And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 222: Ed Sheeran | Inside The Craft of a Songwriter’s Songwriter

Episode Date: September 29, 2025

Today's guest is quite literally one of the greatest songwriters of all time.He also happens to be one of the biggest artists of all time. Imagine that.This legend needs no introduction...And the writer is... Ed Sheeran!Presented by our friends at NMPA.A huge thank you to our sponsors.NMPA fights for songwriters' rights, ensuring fair pay and protection.Check them out at NMPA.org and follow them on social media at ⁨@NMPAorg⁩Splice is the industry’s top sample library—royalty-free for all. It empowers creators with its incredible library and ethical AI tools, supporting original artists every step of the way.Download Splice today and follow them on social media at ⁨@splice⁩Chapters:00:00:00 - Intro00:02:05 - Ed and Ross Reconnect00:04:41 - From Rap Battles to Shaping His Songwriting00:07:07 - Painting as Creative Outlet00:09:13 - Emotional Ties to Songs, Writing Honest Songs for Himself and Others00:12:05 - Childhood Music: Beatles, Dylan, and Irish Trad Influences00:15:07 - Fatherhood’s Impact: Balancing Music and Family00:16:26 - Ed Sings His First Song!00:18:30 - Ed Sings, Ross Tests His Song Memory00:20:27 - The Key to Confidence Starts With....00:22:10 - Advice: Navigating the Music Industry’s Challenges00:24:20 - Where Ed Gets His 'Buzz' From Music00:25:50 - The Thing That Made His Songwriting 'Stick'00:28:35 - No Plan B: Why He Never Gave Up00:30:04 - Discovery by Jamie Foxx: Breaking into the Scene00:36:14 - Mid-Roll Ad: NMPA Fighting for Songwriters00:36:52 - Mid-Roll Ad: Splice Supporting Creators with AI00:44:11 - First Cuts: Writing for Olly Murs and One Direction00:46:58 - Creative Process00:52:12 - The Lawsuit That Changed Everything00:55:49 - Protecting Songwriters: Why No Union Exists01:05:57 - Making "Perfect" to Prove Himself After the Lawsuit01:12:49 - Advice to Young Songwriters...01:14:03 - Legacy Songs: What Ed Wants His Grandkids to Hear01:15:23 - Family Over Fame: Being a Present Dad01:20:38 - Songs Ed’s Jealous Of01:23:46 - Closing: Ed’s Gratitude and Future PlansAnd The Writer Is...Hosted by Ross GolanExecutive produced by Joe London and Jad SaadFollow us on socials at  @andthewriteris ​ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Is there a place in the world where you're not known? No. Today's guest is one of the biggest musicians in the world. The history of music. I want to talk about your life from the perspective of being a songwriter. That's where I find this such an interesting podcast to come on. Why didn't you give up? I didn't have a plan B.

Do you run out of ideas? I go through seasons. So I'll have days where I'm just on. And then I'll have months where it's shit. Putting yourself out there like that until it's successful, it is embarrassing. because you've got nothing to show for it. And I think the only solace you can find is that you love it. You know, all your friends go to university

and then they start getting jobs and they're comfortable, they have money and blah, blah, blah, and you're the one that turns up not having showered for four days wearing the same socks for a week. I can't thank you enough on behalf of all songwriters. I appreciate that, man. Thank you. You're, like, the first person to, like, publicly say thank you. If you were to give your kids the advice when they say,

I want to do music, what do you say to them right now? This season is presented by NMPA, the National Music Publishers Association, champions of songwriters and publishers everywhere. Welcome to And The Writer is. I'm your host, Ross Golan. Today's legend went from busking street corners to selling out stadiums without compromising his humility. This icon is one of the most streamed artists of all time, including multiple songs in the top ten. Amongst his long list of accolades, he's a... a four-time Grammy winner and an Ivor Novello Award and Honoree. But he's not only an artist.

He's a songwriter, songwriter. He's Penn Smashes for and with Justin Bieber and the weekend, Taylor Swift, One Direction, BTS, and so many others. All the way from the United Kingdom, this painter, is maybe one of the greatest songwriters of all time, but he's still just dad at home. And the writer is Ed Shearant. That's a very sweet intro.

Thank you. So we've actually, we, we, the first time we met, which I don't, I'd be surprised if you remember, because I went, I went and looked this up last night. This is an amazing truth. It was backstage at a Mac Miller concert in 2013. Damn, you look at that one. Where, and Hammerstein Ballroom. Yeah, and I brought Kit Harrington.

Do you remember that? Oh, whoa, I did not know that. Me and Kit turned up and we got Kit to like bring on Mac's like drink halfway through and Mac didn't know he was there and he obviously watched Game of Thrones and was just like, oh my God, John Snow's on stage. Yeah, that was a mad gig because he also had, was Jay Cole opening up for him or was Jay Cole just there? His chance was there as well and Scrillex was there, a mad show.

What I remember from it was, I had just landed and I was meeting up with Benny. I was with Amar, Malik. And we showed up in the backstage. I think we would like maybe miss whoever was opening. Yeah. I think it was Choms. Yeah, I think that that sounds right. Everyone starts doing shots.

And it's you and Benny and Scrillic, Sunny, Amar and me in a circle doing a shot. And then everyone starts freestyling. and the whole time I was like, don't, I'm really tired. And if you come to me, I'd just been flying. I'm going to start like scatting. I can't remember it being bad. So it obviously like-

It wasn't bad enough for you to remember it. That's good. Do you often freestyle backstage at shows? Nah. It used to be like, used to be a thing. I'd say from like age 14 to 24, I'd say. I, like, loved freestyle rap battles and just constantly, I'd say, kind of, like, fed into my songwriting, actually, because I feel like a lot of that is multi-syllable punchlines.

And I feel like even a song like A-team is written like a rap multi-syllable, like they say, a team, they scream, face cream. You know, like it's like all of that came from like me watching rap battles as a kid. Yeah, it's weird. When I talk to writers about being multisyllabic, you can use, it takes up so much real estate that you become less wordy, the bigger your words are. Yeah. You know, the sophistication of your song improves.

I've sort of like, I don't know, I kind of like, for me, songwriting now is sort of two different, like, things on a fork. And it's, I'll either go like super wordy, super lyrical, super, like, heart song. writing or I'm kind of more in melody and that's what's important to me is like how do the words fit into the melody. I'm not trying to like push in a triangle into a square. I'm just like I want the words to sound great with the melody. I'm not really thinking too much about the story of it. But then I think on a record you could then got to balance out that with real real lyrical songs. So yeah, I've sort of got to that point in life where something.

Sometimes melody is king, you know. You asked me before we started rolling, what would, you know, what band would I be super excited to see? And I said, I mean, I don't know. It feels like you have to say the Beatles. It feels like everybody else is second. And you had an opinion about the Beatles, which goes to the idea of like, in a way, words versus melody. Sort of. Yeah, but I still do think McCartney's words are top tier as well.

but I do think when I think a lot of people, when I was in school, a lot of people would just team John Lennon and just were just like John Lennon's the best. And John Lennon, like obviously like oozes cool. He oozes cool. And I guess in some scenarios, people might not think the same about McCartney. But I think that songwise, if you think about like the headlines, the who are the Beatles, what will they be remembered for in 200 years time? One of the songs will be yesterday. That's a McCartney song. One of the songs will be Hey Jude. That's a McCartney song. One of the songs will be Blackbird. That's a McCartney song. Let it be long and winding road. Like they're all like the the headline, you know, uh, if you look at back of people like Bark and Beethoven, like the ones that they like known for. If you look in 200 years time of the Beatles, I'd say probably eight out of 10 of those songs be McCartney songs. When do you have

time to paint? When I'm so when I've switched off from everything else, I do it when if I've like if I've come off tour and I've been really intense in the studio and I'm just like I need a break. I still want to be creative. I still need an outlet in something. I so want to make things. And that's when I learned into painting. But I never, I only gave him to friends originally. And then Damien's manager, Joe, I gave him one. And then he was like, I want to exhibit this and I want to sell these. I have a music foundation. And he was like, we'll sell it and we'll give the money to your music foundation and then I sort of saw a purpose of like putting my head above the parapet a bit because it it's sort of like entering into the art world what is art basically and you I was like I'm

going to sell this art and then suddenly you are open to all sorts of criticism and for me to put my head above the parapet I was like it's for a very good cause and at least I can like live with that but like the amount of discourse you get from I don't know trying trying things that people think that you shouldn't try. You know, it's like the, uh, Billy Joel releasing a classical album. It's a little bit of like, to the critics is kind of like go fuck yourself anyway. Because like, this guy is, has earned the right to go and release art that he wants to release. And it's, it's good.

You guys just think that the word criticism means that you have to critique something. Yeah. I think people were just annoyed that, um, I was given a space to exhibit the art. And we said, I mean, we made like $1.2 million from the sale of it, which all goes into like, you know, underprivileged kids getting instruments and music lessons and blah, blah, blah. So to find any fault in that, I think you have to be a little bit weird. But I do think that it's the art world is kind of like the music world. There's a lot of like hate for success in it. And yeah.

Well, I think it's good. And also, fuck those people who have an opinion about it. Thank you. Okay. Let's, you know, I know that your life has, is, is been, you know, reviewed a bunch where people, you know, have, their documentaries, there are people discuss a lot. But I want to talk about your life from the perspective of being a songwriter. That's where I find this, you know, such an interesting podcast to come on because I feel like

I've never dove into that. It's always me as an artist. And I think it's like there's two strings to my bow and one of them is an artist and one of them is a songwriter. is it i mean i want to ask some of the questions i'll be asking later but is it hard when you write a song from an honest place you've had success from thinking you're writing a song for someone else and releasing it yourself and you've had success for writing something that you thought was for yourself that somebody else cut how emotionally attached are you to your songs depends really it depends

what the song is and what it means and you know there are some songs that like the entirety of subtract, I don't think anyone could sing that other than me. I think that's, that came from a real, like, dark, emotional time that I'm very connected to those songs. And also, like, it just, sometimes the songs that go for other people to sing, they are all super commercial tunes. They are, like, inherently pop songs. There's only a couple of times that I've written with people and done like their deep cut. I usually would do their radio single. So there's only a couple of times.

I'd say like working on Jesse Weyer's record, it was very much that we like wrote songs that were so like emotional and tied to her story. Whereas like I'd say most of my cuts in songwriting outside of my own stuff have been big pop songs like BTS and One Direction and Bieber and etc. etc so it's a bit more you you have less attachment to them well shout out to jesse she is uh she's a lovely human yeah all right so you're born and uh you're born let's start there i was born yep yep that was a start so far so good one nothing um uh so you're born in in halifax and uh you know

having toured with one direction and been through like a bunch of these areas it's kind of the middle of, seeming like the middle of nowhere. It's not, it's a small, it's kind of in the middle, yeah, it's kind of in the middle. It's be like, um, be like somewhere in Connecticut, I guess, to New York. Why, how does your family end up there? Because houses, houses were cheap up north, you know, you could sell a flat in London and buy a four bedroom house up north for, I mean, when I speak to my parents about it, it's like proper old school. It costs 30 grand or something like that, you know, and I don't know what that is now. Yeah, yeah.

But yeah, houses were much cheaper up north. So they moved there. They were starting a family and I think they wanted space. Art was a big part of your childhood. What kind of music was played at home? I mean, the Beatles, very much so. Elton John, we listened to a lot of Irish trad music. My dad, like, was obsessed with bands like Planxty and the Chieftains.

And Van Morrison had made a trad album called Irish Heartbeat. and there's a band called Watson and Carthy. They're a bit more like British trad. So a lot of that, Johnny Mitchell, Stevie Wonder, like constantly. Yeah, Dylan, a lot of Dylan. I found myself gravitating towards the early years of Dylan, though. I never really liked. From blood on the tracks, I think.

I can still listen to it and really appreciate it, but I find myself, times there I change and I'm freewheeling Bob Dylan and like two of my like most spun records. They're just, They're just perfect. But yeah, a lot of that. Trying to think who else. But mostly that.

What's the first, like, what's the first time you got an instrument that you play? Piano. Piano. And I gave it up to play guitar and sort of forgot that I can still sit down and play it a little bit. I wish I'd carried it on. It just seemed such a, like, pointless instrument once I had the guitar, because I was like, well, I can take the guitar anywhere. Why would I play the piano?

No blackies on a guitar. Yeah. Yeah. But it's only when I. got older, I was like, I wish I'd carried that on. It would be great, like, to have that ability. Your, uh, your brother is also a musician. Yeah, he does like classical. So he, uh, his cuts are different to mine and yours. So he, like, he had a, uh, song that was like, did you watch 28 years later? Yeah. You know, when they're running across the thing, uh, and it's like, it's the beautiful

water and blah, blah, blah, and they're getting chased that the song that plays there. my brother made. That's cool. So he does like soundscapes for movies and TV shows. Do you guys support each other? 100%. Yeah, he's done arrangement on every single album. He did arrangement for perfect Joker in the Queen, in other words, on this record. When you guys were children, were you guys making music together? No. We didn't actually really get on as kids. I'd say we got on until high school and then we just teenagers. You sort of get in your own. friend circles and then yeah, I remember, I remember both of us, and I think back now I'm actually like that, it's actually quite fucked up on my mom, but both of us moved out of home the same week.

I moved out like to London and my brother moved out to university. And when we came back that Christmas, we were then just best friends. So I think just us having a bit of independence and, you know, being out in the world and being like, fuck, actually, family's pretty important. And I think coming back was, yeah. As a parent, does that affect how you view it? your child thing? Yeah. Yeah. But I don't think I have a leg to stand on with my kids.

Like if my daughter at 16 was like, I'm going to pursue this, what can I say? Right. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. It's a bizarre thing to be a songwriter post children. Did that, like having children, how did that affect your songwriting? I don't think it's affected my songwriting.

But it's definitely affected my schedule. So I'm like my work is around them rather than the other way around, like, because they have a very specific strict schedule of you get up at this time. You do pack lunch. You do school drop off. And then I'll go to the studio. And then I'll finish the studio. I'm going to pick them up from school and then my day's done. Whereas before like I think I would have dragged on a bit more. You would have gone to like 9, 10 PM had a drink, get some food. Maybe like listen to the songs and blah, blah, blah. I'm a lot more focused now. There's no meandering. I go in, I do the job, and then I go home, rather than, like, I look back at someone like creating these records that I've made where you are kind of focused in the day and then you kind of meander for a little bit, and then you go back and be a bit focused on the meander for a little bit, and then you go back and be a bit focused, whereas this is like nine till two,

I'm in and then I'm out completely. Yep. I speak this language. Okay. So, you know, you're at home. You're listening to all classics. Are your first songs all? Do they sound like those artists?

No, they just sound like Damien Rice knockoffs. Yeah. Okay, fair. Because he was the reason I wanted to start writing music. So I was just obsessed with O. And I guess all of my first songs were trying to write songs from O without knowing that actually O comes from like years of experience and heartbreak. And I'm there being 13 being like, I feel it, man.

You know, right, yeah. What's the first song? The first song I ever wrote was called Typical Average Teen, and I wrote it when I was 11, even before I was a teenager. Do you know how it goes? Yeah. Does the guitar? Yeah.

It was like, um, strings on my guitar are rusty. Even my best friends don't trust me. Everybody thinks I must be crazy. Because I'm your typical average teen if you know what I mean. Do you have this skill set that you can just pick up? I always assume that when somebody has a discography of their own of, you know, when I write a song for somebody, it goes out, I'm not out there playing it. Yeah.

Do you have this skill set that I could basically pick out any song and you can remember the lyrics? Well, let's test it. When you perform live, do you have a teleprompter? No. No, I think, I honestly think that's a very slippery slope once you start having one of them. Any time that I've had one, because sometimes you perform with people that have them, and you have the song up there. And I go, oh, this is actually pretty nice.

It's quite crazy. And I know that the moment I get one, you're going to lose something. And then you're just constantly, constantly doing it. And I have like artists friends that, like, you'll be in a synonymous. and the guitar will be passed round and they can't remember their biggest song because it's always on a teleprompter and I just don't want to

get to that point. You know? Yeah, it's also, it's the muscle, for me it's muscle memory. Yeah. That it seems like that's when I remember stuff better as if I've actually like rehearsed it. Yeah.

But if I were to say like, I'm just picking out what are album tracks, but if I were to say like grade eight. Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's all going to be in the same key. My mind is a warrior. My heart is a foreigner.

My eyes are the color of red like a sunset. Yeah. And we're going to just go through, we're just going to go through different songs that are not hits out of these albums. Let's just go and do bloodstream. Oh, yeah. I've been spinning half a time.

A couple women by myself. But I got sinning on mine Sipping on red wine But I do play bloodstream quite often Yeah, yeah, fair That's a good song Good job Thank you

Yeah, no problem Supermarket flowers Took the supermarket flowers From the windowsill I threw the day of tea From the cup Backed up the photo album Matthew had made

Memories of Life this being loved. I reckon I'll probably know all of them. That's pretty incredible, man. I mean, I think maybe Bouble is the only other person that I know that can like just really know their discography that well. And a lot of his are covers, so this is slightly different. But it's like it's such a, yeah, I'm trying to think.

Okay, so we're going back to the beginning. You just, you know, you wrote an average teenage, what was it? Typical average teen. Typical average teen. It's, you know, a pretty sophisticated rhyme. So you weren't starting from nothing. Isn't it? I think so.

If you know what I mean. Not that part. Pre-chorus. First half of the chorus. I didn't hear the rest of the song. I don't know where we are. But they, you know, like that song is like it's not, it's not, it's not nothing. You know, like, you know.

No. The recording of it is not great, though. I think now playing it being a professional singer and performer, it sounds a lot better than when I recorded it when I was 13. Yeah. Yeah. So take me from, I'm going to, you know, I'm going to show my family, hey, guys, I just wrote a song or friends.

Yeah. Well, my dad, do you know what? I think the key, the key to my confidence as a kid was, uh, my dad never being honest with me. My dad was just always like, this is great. Well, do more. And actually, listening back, he was lying, you know, like it was. great at all, but he was really, really encouraging. And I think that that really helped me go,

oh, cool, yeah, I'll write some more songs. I really think, like, the key to any child having an ability in later life is, like, having confidence built in their early years, knowing that they can do stuff. And I think that even in my head, I'm like, I know I'm bad at geography, I know I'm bad at maths, I know I'm bad at English, I know it about him science, because I was bad and I was never given encouragement and my confidence just left. And me as a 34 year old, I know I don't need them, but I don't think I can ever get to a point where I can be confident in stuff like that, whereas with music, my dad was just always super, super, super encouraging, even at the points where he probably was being too nice, you know. Would you encourage your kids to do music? Yeah, I think I would

actually, because it's brought me so much, so much happiness. I think the music industry has been an interesting roller coaster ride in my life. I wouldn't say it's, I wouldn't say it's been negative, but I would say that I would have to give my kids like pep talks a lot of like, this is what it is. Because I think the music industry is quite a foul place.

Really? At times, man, you know it is. You fucking know it is. It's not a great, it's not a great environment. for teenage kids going into it, having confidence built, having confidence destroyed. Like it's not. It's not.

And even now, like, you'll have artists come in, have like two or three hits be built up and then just not, not physically dropped by a label, but just like the public forgets and moves on. And then they are famous for the rest of their life, but then can't like, I don't know, get it back again. And then you're just sort of like in this like no man's land where everyone thinks that you're really wealthy and successful. Then you're really recognizable, but you're struggling. And I don't know. Yeah. Fame and wealth are very different things. Yeah. I would have to kind of speak to my kids a lot if they were going to get into the industry, especially as well.

Because they're going to go into it with a famous dad who makes music. And there's so much baggage that comes with that as well. And I remember being on sets as a teenager with famous people's kids. And no one wanted them to do well. It was just they were there. And they would want someone like me to do well because I was, you know, new up and coming and blah, blah, blah. And there's baggage that comes with just being related to someone.

And they think that, you know, they've bought your success, even if you have success and you have to work. So it's all a, I think it's a very layered nuanced thing with children. and I think I'll speak to them throughout. If you could do music and not be famous, would you take that now? No, because I love performing. And I think inherently to be on stage, people have to know who you are because you're on stage and they're looking at you. So no, because I'd say, I'd say 50% of my love for music comes from the buzz of being on stage and 50% comes from the buzz of writing songs.

And everything in between is just noise. So I don't know. And I don't think you can pick and choose it because I often mourn for the normality of life with children. You know, like I can't take my kids to the zoo and normal shit like that. But there's so many other things in my life that I can do because of where my career's gone. So it's a balance of I can't be where I am without losing this and gaining this. But if I wasn't where I am, I would have this and not have that. It's a, I can't think like that.

Is there a place in the world where you're not known? No. Used to be Japan and then Shape of You came out. Japan used to be the place that used to go on holiday and then shape of you came out and never again. Is there a time where you can become anonymous or is it too, is it too late for that? New York's all right. Brooklyn's like Brooklyn, Brooklyn Knights are kind of warm. offended when they see a famous person, I feel.

They're sort of like you're blowing up our spot. So I get left alone in Brooklyn. That's really funny. So let's go back to, you know, your first time's performing are on the street. What about busking change the way you wrote songs? I think you can't be a shoegazing quiet singer-songwriter when you're performing like that. you have to grab people's attention and make people care. So I think my songs became a bit more bombastic, I guess is the word.

And yeah, exciting. I would drop in funnier things. Like I would make sure my lyrics had like things that would catch people's attention. Yeah, I think it changed. Like no one, no one has time to like dig into the intricacies of what a line means when you're singing busking. that you just have to catch their attention. And I think a song like, You Need Me, did that.

It was just who the fuck is this, like, fat Ginger Kid with a small guitar saying, you need me, I don't need you. Like, what the fuck are you talking about? You need me, I don't need you. And then suddenly you're like in, and at least you're interested, you know? That's really funny. Did you make money from busking? I made enough to, like, get around.

I didn't, I never had rent because I just stayed on mate. or promoters' couches. So I didn't have like that overhead. My overhead was more food and trains, like tubes. So it wasn't, I didn't have to make a vast, my security guy was just taking his shirt off for some reason. I didn't, I didn't make like vast amounts of, vast amounts of money, but I didn't need vast amounts of money to exist.

I probably made 20 pounds a day, maybe, which is kind of all you need for food and, well, maybe not now. But yeah, food and the occasional train ticket. when you're performing in front of people and it's like, and you have an open guitar case, it's pretty vulnerable. Like you're not guaranteed, there's no guaranteed money or anything like that.

Did your ego withstand the inevitable, um, jokes from your friends? Yeah. Supportive. No. No. Is Josh here?

Joe, oh, he's outside. Josh, my mate, who's on tour with me. He could. books. He, when I was a teenager, rung me up and pretended to be Zainlo and was like, you've got,

because Zainlo used to run like the show on Radio 1 that broke people. And Josh pretended to be Zainlo being like, you've got the hottest record in the world. My friends always took the piss at me, always. And you're kind of putting yourself out there like that until it's successful, it is embarrassing, because you've got nothing to show for it. And I think the only The only solace you can find is, but you love it. Like, I loved performing. I loved writing songs. And I was like, I'm not, I'm not going to do anything else.

I enjoy this. But yeah, it is embarrassing to, you know, all your friends go to university. And then they start getting jobs and they're comfortable, they have money and blah, blah, blah. And you're the one that turns up not having showered for four days, wearing the same socks for a week and having slept on some randing. Why didn't you give up? Huh? Why didn't you give up? I didn't have a plan B.

Like, I didn't, there was no plan B. It was just, I, I wasn't good at school, so I didn't get good grades to go to university. And it was just, I was always going to be in music. You're such an articulate writer. Where did you learn to speak so eloquently, having also been bad at school? Well, I don't think being bad at school necessarily ties in with not being eloquent at all. There's lots of people I know that they were excluded from school

who are rappers who have far bigger vocabularies than I have so yeah I don't know if that's part and parcel connected you get discovered by Jamie Fox that's weird

that's so unusual yeah that I think built my confidence again I was on the acoustic scene in London for years and I wasn't I was never the best person on the bill ever

and I was the youngest who were some of the people you played with. Cal Lavelle, who is a writer on Shivers. Crazy. Yeah. Her, there aren't people that you would really know to be. A passenger.

Gicked a lot with passenger, yeah, when I was a teenager. Yeah, but I was always the youngest, so I was always like, I was always in and amongst it, but I was never the best. Everyone was like 26. I was like 17. And, you know, you do those acoustic gigs. over and over and over again, you just blend in. I was just another acoustic singer-songwriter

trying to be James Blunt, David Gray, Damien Rice, I just blended in. And I started doing poetry nights and there was a collective called Po Jazzy and there was a poet there called Elizabeth, who was American. And she was like, I've got a guy who runs this thing called Fly Poet in L.A.

I can get you a show there if you can get yourself out there. So I used a bunch of money that I'd sold from CDs. I bought a plane ticket, Los Angeles. I came out. I played fly poet at the Savoy Entertainment Theatre in Inglewood and played that gig. And then John who ran the gig was then like, I can get you other gigs. So we started doing other poetry nights. So I played R&B Live at the Key Club. Do you remember that? Yeah. Yeah, of course. Blast from the past. And then one of the gigs that he got me on was this gig at the Foxhole. And I played the Foxhole, which was Jamie's club. I met Jamie's manager

who said Jamie does a serious XM radio show. Do you want to come on it? So I went on the radio show. And then whilst on the radio show, Jamie was just like, I like you. Do you want to just come back to my house? We're doing parties all week. Use my studio, whatever.

And so I went back with him to his house. Kind of embarrassing. I got a yellow cab. And he lives like miles away. And it was like a two and a half hour drive. I was broke. And I got there. The bill for the taxi was like $3, 400.

And I just went in. And I was like, can someone get that? And just one of his people came out and paid for the cab. But yeah, kind of embarrassing. But yeah, and then I was there for a bit. And I think I went back to the UK being like, I was in L.A. for a month. And I achieved that. I know I can do this here.

Like the UK is about as big as California. If I can do that in L.A. in a month, I can definitely break the UK. And I went in with just a different confidence and energy. when I was trying to get into bigger sessions here. And I had like some decent size cuts, but it wasn't until I went on a trip to London and I worked with Steve Mack and Robson and Frazier and all these guys that were in that circuit

that were kind of like at the higher level of the UK circuit. And then when I came back, it was like, oh, well, he was just there and started working with those people. And it was like leaving home. Yeah. Has a tremendous value. I tell people this about,

I have a friend that made that movie once John Carney he made I mean he's made like a lot of amazing films but he made once and they won the Oscar for once for the best original song and he moved to Los Angeles

to be like that's where the work is and he said that once he was here he would go to meetings but meetings would get cancelled because they knew that he was around and like ah like we'll catch you next week and then when he moved back to Dublin everyone started calling again and then when he'd come to town it would be so like

it would be it would matter that he was there and it would be important and the meetings we'd be in and meetings would be had and things would be done and there's something I find this living in uh suffolk in in Ipswich like when I come to America it matters I'm not part of the furniture here it it takes sometimes it takes longer to get the wheels rolling because you know there'd be sometimes I haven't been here of like five years or something but like I do think there is something about living elsewhere that helps. When does Elton Jan show up? 2010. So I was on the circuit

gigging. My friend Lester, Clayton, really knew this guy called Just Jack really well. Just Jack was pretty big. I'm doing a tour and Jack was like, I need a support act. Lester, do you know anyone? Lester ran a night that I used to play. Lester said get Ed on it. And so I went on Just Jack's tour and I met my now manager, Stuart, who was a manager at Elton John's rocket management. So that was like, that was 2009 I got with Stewart. And then I think I met Elton 2010.

Yeah. But it was very much like a mentor-mentorey relationship. The switch between, you know, you're building your team. You've been here. You have all this confidence. still different than like 18 blows open all the doors. Yeah. You know, like you sign with Ed.

This is 18. A team was written around this time though. Okay. So an A team, I put out A team independently in April 2010. And, you know, it started off maybe like 100,000 views on YouTube, which at the time was huge for me.

But then it like built steam throughout the year. And I was doing festival stuff and different tours and blah, blah, blah. And that's when I, the December of that year, 2010, was when I signed a record deal. And instead of being put on a shelf for development, they just started working A-team. So it went from like minor,

maybe A-team charted at like 150 or something like that to then going to radio and then being worked at radio and then selling a lot of copies. And then we took it outside of the UK and went to Europe and America and Asia. You signed to Ed Howard, right? Yeah. He seems like a good egg.

He's a really good egg. He's a really, really good egg. NMPA is our lead sponsor yet again. What is the National Music Publishers Association? What do publishers have to do with songwriters anyway? Well, unlike artists who can be unsigned artists, there is no such thing as an unsigned writer. You can be a self-published, a co-publisher, a publish writer. Publishers only make money if songwriters make money. So NMPA goes and fights for you. They go to Congress, they go and support the community, they fight DSP. to get you paid more.

That's what they do. They fight for you, and they fight for this podcast. So thank you for fighting for songwriters, NMPA. Thank you for fighting for us too. Okay, so I use Splice, and I'm pretty sure every producer who listens to this uses Splice, but if you don't, you need to start using Splice. They have the most incredible licensing library

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was writing a team, you know, it's what you post it. You're like, oh, this is pretty good. But when do you start, you know, when you start seeing like, oh, this is, this is a different level than anything I predicted. Because your mentors or your, I don't know, mentors, isn't there a word, but like the Damien Rice is of the world. Who's amazing. Yeah. I don't think he probably scratched his ceiling. chart-wise didn't even get to like an 18 thing.

It wasn't chart-wise because I feel like even back then the charts were like you could put CD singles on pre-orders and do like press tours and blah, but you could sort of chart positions could be manipulated. Not manipulated because people still have to buy it. But in like now you release a song and you work it and it might work. Whereas back then you could tell whether a song was going to chart well because you would have a six-week run into it of pre-orders and radio play and blah, blah, blah. So less like, less manipulation and more like focused working of it, whereas now songs come out,

how do you know? How do you know? And how do you work it? Like it's just, the song comes out and it might connect. It might not connect. It's if you go on radio, maybe that works. If you do a TikTok, maybe that works. There's no, like, there's no specific way. Whereas I think in 2010, 2011, there was a really like rigid. You put the songs radio, you get on Radio 1, C list, and then you put the CD single up for pre-order, you put the iTunes up for pre-order, and then it goes to B list, and it goes to A list, and then the song comes out, you do TV performance, and then you move on. And that was very much the way to do it back then.

You know, a lot of what we talk about now is about world building, and if you were to plan a career like yours, you know, what was it, Suyan Stevens, is that how you pronounce the name? And when he did like the, he did the Michigan album, then he did come field of Illinois. And the theory at the time supposedly was said he was going to do one for all 50 states. And you coming in with, you know, plus to start and knowing that you're going to go through the mathematics and now we're into a new era, it's so smart because it shows a label in the fan base, like stick with me. Because there's something to look forward to. And even crazier, you start your biggest. hit to start was an acoustic vocal.

Yeah. You couldn't have planned that better. It wasn't planned. It was just the momentum of A team was around. Yeah, the momentum of A team was happening. Why Lego House to follow A team? Well, you need me followed A team and then we went to Lego. It was you need me.

Oh, interesting. A team, you need me, Lego House, small bump, drunk, give me love. Those are the six singles from, from Plus. I don't know, Lego House definitely felt like a more slam dunk pop song than A-team's very much like singer-songwriter world. You Need Me's very much acoustic hip-hop world. And Lego House felt very, this is for pop radio, you know. Ironically, Lego House was never a hit in the States. We only really had A-Team on that record.

getting sort of famous at this point in your hometown you know it was it how how much did the success of those songs start to change who you were perceived as at home um yeah i mean massively i think you know nothing has really come out of my area like that so it was it wasn't like it was a it wasn't It wasn't like if you become famous in Manchester, there's been lots of famous bands that have come out of Manchester. But I think it was, yeah, it was different. I had friends become weird. I had family become weird. I had like just people I'd known for years and years become weird.

What does that mean to you? When people give, it's hard to explain this to people who, when you have a certain access, especially in something like music, you start getting phone calls from everybody about their cousins, cousins, friends, friends, music. How was it weird for you? I think the frustrating thing for me was like I had had three and a half years of real struggle that I was sort of ridiculed for by these people. And then suddenly as soon as it works, then the like solution to their problems.

And I kind of, I've grown up as a quite like friendly, nice giving guy. And so I would just do the things that they are. asked me to do. And looking back, like, I had, I had people that were like older than I am now leaning on me for money when I was 19. And I'm like, I'm now 34. And I'm like, I would never, ever, ever be leaning on a 19 year old to get them to fix my problems or like guilt trip them that because they're not doing this, then this is fucking up for me and blah, blah, blah. It's a, I look, I look back now with more of a like, uh, with more cynicism. and just like.

I think some of the darkest parts of the music business is the people outside the music business in that way. I think that maybe isn't just a music that might be success across all, not just even art. You know, if you're successful in any field, I think some people just assume that you're working for everybody. Yeah. I think it becomes a, and this is why I got rid of my phone and moved to iPad and email.

I just, you need some separation from it. You can't be available. to everyone for everything at all times. Because then you lose everything of yourself. You need to be able to be who you are and compartmentalize all of that. Yeah, I've said behind your back before, I've said, look, if Ed Sheeran doesn't need a phone, you don't either. So that's, that's a quote that I'm going to have put in a neon sign and put that in my studio. I have a, I've built a bowling alley at my studio and my wife wouldn't let me build one at home because she was just like, we're weird enough, we don't need a bowling alley. So in my bowling alley, there's a neon sign saying

we're weird enough, we don't need a bowling alley. Yeah, that's great. Who says to you, let's start getting your songs cut by people, not you? So that was pre, pre me actually being an artist, was that was my plan B, as it were. Like my plan A was, was, my plan A was. always to be a songwriter performer, but it was 2008. I think I had my first cut when I was 17 on an Olly Mears album. And that was always my plan was, if I can't be a performer, I will be a songwriter. Like, I will make this songwriting thing work. That was really big. Alie Merse cut at that time was pretty massive. Yeah, well, I mean, it went double platinum. That was the only level of success that I had ever had. It was my first plaque. It was my first this, first that. And at 17,

like that's a really fucking big deal like um and yeah so throughout that time even a team time uh because a team i'd first met the one direction lads they'd just come off x factor and they were putting their album together and i uh pitched two songs one of where or maybe they cut both of them i can't remember i was i'm on most of the one direction albums i can't remember which songs went on where at what time but definitely in that first year was i had a cut with one direction And that was another thing of trying to be, even in my breakout year, being like I am also a songwriter as well. And I want to always have two feet in each side of things. I don't ever want to just be an artist or just be a songwriter. I want to be able to do both. I think it's a very

important thing to maintain because, you know, sometimes I take my foot off the gas of being an artist and really put my foot down on the gas of being a songwriter and vice versa. And I think it's good to have both abilities. A lot of the songs that have been cut by other people are pitch songs. No. I'd say like 70-30, I'd say. Yeah. I'd say 30% of the time I'm in the studio with an artist and 70% of the time would be.

Writing for them? Yeah. Who are the artists that you write best with? As in like with-with. Yeah. Right. Jesse was always great I think any time I've written with Taylor

but Taylor is also just a great songwriter on her own anyway so that kind of like and she'll usually come in with a concept that's almost done anyway artist I don't know really What do you like when you walk in? We've never written together. When you're in a, when you walk into a studio do you often come in with the idea or do you go in and just sort of float?

A little bit of both I think. I'm very much a dare to say. suck kind of guy. Like I'll go in and sort of write whatever. If we, you know, we might write, uh, three songs and one of them be great. We might write five songs and one of them or two of them will be great. I just, I think like throwing ideas at the wall, I'll write hundreds of songs and finish hundreds of songs, maybe pick 10 of them. Yeah. You're, you're known for writing, you know, I know other people who've written with you where you say that you'll come in and you'll write two songs in a day, three songs in a day.

Don't you get tired? Do you run out of ideas? Oh, yeah. Yeah, definitely, yeah. I go through seasons. Some seasons of my life, I'm like, the shape of you day. I wrote, stripped that down that day as well, and a song call for the rest of our lives on Tim McGraw on Faith Hill.

And I think there was another one. There was a day I did with Benny where we did like East Side and Love Yourself and something rather. So I'll have days where I'm just on. And then I'll have months where it's shit. The songs are shit or where you're just not writing every day? No, no, no, I am writing every day. But the songs just, they're all six out of tens rather than all being 10 out of tens.

How do you have the taste with that much music? I don't anymore. I don't know. I never know anymore. I think early on in my career, I was surefire on what songs would work and what songs wouldn't. And now, I don't know. There's a song I literally just put out camera that I wrote for equals that everyone who I played it to at equals was like, eh.

And so it didn't go on the album. And then it's sort of stuck. And then I played it to someone maybe like a year ago. They were like, why the fuck did this never come out? And then we reworked it and it came out. So like sometimes it's just, I probably have songs in my arsenal now that are on a hard drive somewhere that might come out in 10 years that might be massive. I don't know. I love the personnel on camera.

because Hodges is, you know, dear friend, lovely, digs really deep when he writes. He really is like careful with emotion. Yeah. And then you have, you know, Watt and Blake who are like, who can do. It wasn't Blake. It was Louis Bell. Oh, Louis Bell, right. Watt and Louis Bell, and who do like a whole other, you know, a different kind of writing.

Yeah. How did that session come about? I work with Hodges a lot. I met Hodges through Amy Wodge. We did a Nashville, like, Bluebell. round like she did it with Hodges and I went and sung thinking out loud with her and I met him then he played the David Archillette a song Crush and I was like fuck yeah man fuck yeah and I got in with him I was living in Nashville at the time we wrote first times then which is on my album

equals and we just kept in touch we end up writing Afterglow which which is one of my biggest songs and yeah I've done loads of sessions with Dave I mean he'll tell you like I write a lot of songs. I write a lot of songs. But that was, I'd known what for years, what was Justin's guitarist for ages, so I knew what, I think what was Cody Simpson's guitarist back in the day. Yeah. Because I remember doing radio shows with Cody and then what was that. So like, I'd known what for years and years and years. And so we got together, Louis had obviously done loads of post-malone stuff that I'd loved. So we'd then got in and I brought David and, and, And yeah, we made camera.

We made two step that day. That was the, that was the song that came out of that day. But camera also was written that day. Multiply is such a big album. And it's, you know, coming off of, it's really reminiscent with like Adele having, you know, 21 after, you know, chasing pavements. And then having this string of not just like hits, but just like monster, monster songs. Amy Wodge is also a wonderful person.

You definitely surround yourself with some of the nicest folks. you know. Thanks. That's notorious from her that that's, you know, that was about when she's like ready to give up being a songwriter. Yeah, well, we'd work together since I was 16. She was like one of my first sessions ever.

And actually looking back on it, it's kind of, but she just had her first daughter. Like, I think maybe her first daughter was like a couple of weeks old or something. It was, you know, now having kids, I'm like, holy shit, you let a 16 year old, but you'd never met into your home

whilst you were doing that and then wrote songs with him. It was kind of like an amazing thing. Like we made an EP called Songs I wrote with Amy around that time. But she's been like one of my closest friends since the beginning. And I think because she had been a singer-songwriter herself was always like a good sounding board. I had a moment with an attorney that represented the gay state in blurred lines

blurred lines and I said that that was the worst that's the worst lawsuit and you know to happen to probably art as a whole but certainly

songwriters in my lifetime and maybe in the history of music and she said you're right it was ruled incorrectly and she said And she said if she said at least it hasn't been held up in court very well used for precedent. And a big part of that is because of you. And I can't thank you enough on behalf of all songwriters.

I appreciate that. Thank you. Like, man. man, that is the most mensch thing you could do because it would be a lot easier for you not to do it. Yeah, I was told that so many times leading up to it. Just settle, just settle, just settle, just settle, just leave it in the past. Because it was about a year of behind the scenesness before it even went public and we're taking this to court. and I think when you haven't done something wrong and someone's saying,

oh yeah, but just give him a hundred grand and it will go away. You know, this is going to cost you millions to take it to court and it's going to be really bad PR for you and blah, just give him 100 grand, it will go away. And I think there's just something in the back of my head that's just like,

when does that end? You do that once, you do it again, you do it again, you do it again. And part of me just wanted to like put my foot down and draw a line in the sand with it. And that's why I did it on both sides of the Atlantic.

I did it in UK court and I did it in American court. and it was a hugely unpleasant experience. I'm sure Amy will talk to you about it. And for both sides, no one on either side wanted to be in the courtroom. That was the thing. It wasn't like the other side were like, we've got it.

Like you could tell everyone was like, this has gone too far. But once you're there, you have to set precedent. And I think lots of other artists settle. And that's why it's kind of got into a, a commonplace thing of settling as normal. And I don't think it is ever normal to have someone accuse you of something and you still

have to pay them if you haven't done it. It's, uh, those, yeah, those court cases, it's kind of like a really dark cloud in my life. It was also in a time where a lot of like really dark shit was happening in my personal life as well. What was happening in your personal life? The week, the first court case happened, my wife got diagnosed with cancer, my best friend died, and then another friend of mine died first day of the court case, and then the court case begun. And it was like all of that happened within a seven-day period.

And it was, yeah. What kept you going during that? I have no idea. I remember not caring about the court case at all while sitting in there, because I had all that shit going on. you know, I'd be finishing the court case and going to my mate's mom's house to like help her grieve and then going home and being with my wife and then going back to court in the next day. And yeah, it was a really like really fucked up time. Did you, were you ever able to mourn the loss of your friend?

Yeah. In a sense. I think it took a while because I was basically in that case and then Cherry was pregnant at the time she had the tumor. So then she had to give birth first and then she had the operation to get rid of the tumor and then I was on tour and they went into the other court case and then I think once that court case was done and all of that was over, I think then I had space to grieve and yeah, all of that. Did you feel supported in the lawsuit by the songwriting community? No. No, you're the first person to like publicly say thank you and all the emails that I got afterwards

were after the fact once the ruling came in. I think everyone kind of thought I'd done it. Yeah. It's so important. I can't tell songwriters enough to protect your copyrights with everything you have. And publishers protect your writer's copyrights

with everything you have. Like this is our livelihood. And it's just so hard to explain. People just kind of, especially, maybe one of the darker sides of the business is, you know, the people who are kind of left to deal with it are the songwriters. We're very not protected. We don't have a union.

We can't do that. And why do you think there is no union? Because I've spoken about this so many times. Like, why do you think that? Well, we have organizations. I mean, man, I'm, you know, I'm on the board of Sona, which you're welcome to join. And we have, you know, I'm, I'm the co-chair of the Grammy songwriter composer wing. part of the Golden Platinum Club co-chair of that with NMPA.

These are all organizations that fight for songwriters. And certainly NSAI in Nashville and Sona are trade organizations that you can be a part of and help them advocate. But we're independent contractors. If you show up to a session and they pay you to show up, then they own your asset. You don't want that. So you want to be an independent contractor. That's why songwriters were looking at the, this is an aside, but we're looking at the Uber lawsuit where we were hoping that the drivers for Uber would win because they're independent contractors.

So if they could unionize, then we could unionize. But we can't. Yeah. You know, we can't because unions are for work for higher people. And so that's like the short of it. It doesn't mean we, as I always say, like, we can't unionize, but that doesn't mean we can't unite. Yeah. So, but it takes people like you to put your, you know, your literal, you know, money where your mouth is.

Yeah. I mean, I guess you didn't literally put your money where your mouth is, but, you know, metaphorically. Anyway, photograph was a big song. Don't was a big song. Is it, does it become easy? What, to have big songs? That and to write them. Like, did, was there a part of you that, that question?

I think it's sometimes to do with like where you're at in your life and career as well, because I think at that time there was such a groundswell of support of me as a boy next door could be your brother's mate who works at a pizza shop, has an acoustic guitar, and he's playing an arena. I think there was such a groundswell of that that the song sort of fell in place with the story. And I think all of that led up to divide. And I think divide was the commercial. peak and then pass then you're not the underdog anymore and then it's not it's it's it's not that the songs I wrote after divide were like any easier or any harder it's just there's a different

lens on it I'm now like a huge global mega pop star as opposed to like the underdog who people are like rooting for and I think that it there's there's different seasons of a career and I think that part has now ended and now I'm probably entering into like uh kind of like I think maybe like six or seven more years where Chris Martin is now, where he's, I think the words goaded. But, you know, he was like Chris Martin was a punching back for years, even though he's written some of the greatest songs of all time and is one of the best performers of all time. And I think it's taken a long time for people to just sort of go, yeah, actually. Yeah. You know?

Yeah, the Billy Joel documentary was a lot of that too. It's like there's some sort of you root for the underdog. then they become yeah at what point were you comfortable saying I'm a pop star divide I think yeah shape of view was so ubiquitous that like it I think like even on

even on multiply like the first single of multiply kind of was big and don't kind of was big photograph after the fact now kind of but photograph wasn't a top 10 single in the UK it's just streamed lots over the last 10 years thinking out loud was my first proper proper proper hit and then i think going into shape of you

that became the biggest song that i'd ever had at that point and then from there it was like cast on the hill girl good girl perfect etc etc love yourself was you know the the biggest song you had had outside of yourself at that point yeah um was there a part of you that felt like you should have kept that for yourself no because i think i think also as i said from like a keeping both feet in either being a performer and being a songwriter. It's good to be like, have proven hits that have come out and there be multiple of them rather than like it be a fluke. You know, love yourself is big, but so's east side, so's 2002, so's trying to think of

whatever, cold water, like little things for one direction. They're all songs that people know that can solidify me as a song. writer and then I have my artist stuff that can solidify me as an artist. So I think it's important to have those moments. Did you feel pressure following up multiply? I mean, I think. I think there's always pressure to follow up everything. Yeah. Is there a point where an artist just feels, you know, whatever this does is fine. Yeah. Or no, no, once you get to the point, that point, are you, are you? Yeah, I think, I think there's probably a point where all artists retire from given a fuck and I think that's probably a healthy place to be in. I think I'm still in the pop game.

I still love pop and I think if you make pop music, you can't you can't retire from giving a fuck because pop music inherently you have to like work and push out and yeah, yeah. So yeah, I'm sure I'll get to that point. I'm sure where Springsteen's at right now, he retired from giving a fuck a while ago and he just sort of makes stuff puts it out, make stuff puts it out. It just does the things that he wants, but I'm sure when he was doing, born in the USA, when he was in his 30s, as I am, he was giving a fuck. I can't think of another artist that has albums that has very clearly songs that are aimed for, I mean, you've mastered this song belongs in a club and this song belongs at your wedding.

And I mean, this one belongs in your headphones, this belongs, you know, at the the party. I think people think it's more like planned out than it actually is. I think I write a lot of songs and I think on an album like divide I picked the best songs of the best

genres that I was making. So I had written a lot of songs like Castle on the Hill. I wasn't going to put all of them on the record. I picked Castle on the Hill because it was the best of those songs. Shape of You was the best of the sort of pop songs I'd made. Gal was the best of the trad songs that I'd made. Eraser was the

best of the rap songs that I made. It's the greatest hits of this, this moment in my life. Yeah. And I'd be like, I want different points of the album and different subjects. And I'm going to write a few songs in each subject. So like Castle on the Hill was a nostalgic song about my childhood. There was a few other nostalgic songs about my childhood that I wrote that just weren't as good.

But Castle on Hill was good. And that would make the album. So yeah, I guess like a greatest hits of the album sessions. Shape of view is just such a different level. There's like this, that author who wrote, E. Pray, Love, who does like a TED talk about how do you follow up? What's statistically an impossible thing to follow up? Yeah.

Do you think of Shape of View in a positive light? Yeah, totally. Totally. Yeah. I'm not like, I love the fact that anywhere I go in the world, anywhere, I've been in like remote jungles in the middle of Cambodia with kids who, don't know Western music that know Shape of View. Like it travels. It travels. So yeah, I love it. I think it opened up me to being a true global musician. And I think half of the work that I've

done in India over the last two years is connected to Shape of View. Shape of You was my first massive hit in India. And that's when I did my first. Actually, no, that wasn't when I did my first tour there. So I must have had some, some sort of hit pre-shape of you. But yeah, I like it. I like it. I would say that I am very aware that I will never top it. But then I wouldn't say that it's commercial success. Like, its commercial success is not reflective of the level of song it is in my catalogue. Like, I wouldn't say it's the best song in my catalog at all. Yeah. But it is massive. So I think that if it was the best song that I'd ever written and the biggest song I'd ever written, and maybe I would feel different about it.

But it's a song that I've written that happens to be massive. And there's lots of other songs that I've written that I think are really great that are kind of big. But I think my career has never been, I think because I started with A team and it wasn't global number one. It was a very, very long build everywhere. And then the next song I released, like Lego House was like a long build, wasn't really a big hit anywhere.

Like drunk wasn't really a massive hit. Give Me Love wasn't a massive hit. Sing then wasn't a massive hit. Don't wasn't a massive hit. But these were all hits. And then you can tour off the back of. So I think when you have a song like Shape of view, it doesn't damage your career as much because you've got so much base level, I guess. It's just, it's a big song.

But it's not even the biggest song on the set. Like it just is in the set. But it's not like if I took that out, it would make a difference. What's the, what's a song that in your head defines you as a writer? Perfect. Perfect. That did pretty well. Yeah.

Perfect came at a time as well after the Thinking Out Loud case where all of the chat around thinking out loud in the court case was that I'd stolen the song. And, you know, I'd obviously co-written it with Amy, but that, you know, when people co-write songs, maybe they don't write the songs. And I think Perfect came. It was me being like, I'm going to write a love song that's bigger than thinking out loud and I'm going to do it 100% me. And it came, I think, with a point to prove as well as, obviously, it being about the first months of me falling in love with my now wife. I think that's

why I pushed it so hard. When you have, you know, this idea of doing all the albums with a sign, then you come out with collaborations. Why do you feel the license that you can do like a mixtape in the middle of that. Didn't you feel like, oh, this is slowing down the process? Yeah. Do you know what? I had been working on subtracts at that point and it just wasn't ready. And I was in America and I, I'd made the Bieber tune. Any of the Beaver tune existed. I was working with Bruno at the time. I'd worked with Travis Scott at the time. And these were all just songs that were sort of around. And it was made as a suggestion. It was originally meant to be an EP, like six, six songs. The suggestion was just put them on an EP, push the beep.

Bieber song and that would be that. And yeah, my record label said to me that they would count it as an album option if I made it not an EP. So that's what I did. In hindsight, probably should have kept it as an EP. Why do you say that? Well, because I wouldn't say it's like, I wouldn't call it an album. It's like a collection of songs.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wouldn't say it's an album. Interesting. And I think albums should be journeys and stories. And I think maybe at the point that that came in my career. maybe that derailed the journey a little bit. Yeah. Well, let's jump, you know, obviously equals comes out.

Bad Habits is a big song. Took a second from, you know, some of the others that kind of like get out of the box. Do you start second guessing yourself when a song takes longer to build? No, I started second guessing myself on collaborations. That was, because it was shape of view, perfect, gawait, girl, cast, on Hill, it all was happening on divide. And I think collaborations, the Bieber song didn't go to number one. And then the Khalid song, these are all like a couple of billion streams now. It's not, it's not like, it's definitely not the end of the world. But that was the first time

where I was like, oh, things take a minute. And then, yeah, bad habits came out, took a minute, shivers took a minute, eyes closed, took a minute. Like, the, these are, I think it's just a lesson in not everything you do can be stratospheric instantly. You've got to like, you've still got to work songs. You've still got to give songs breaths. And I do, I do think it's healthy to know that, but talk about that as well. Because I think so many artists are so linked and tied to the instantaneous here and now, day one streams. Oh my God. It's this, this, this, this, this when actually like real hits. Like blinding lights didn't go in at one. It went in 12 and then it slipped away and then it built and built and built and now is the most streamed song

of all time and that took a minute and I sometimes think you just have to have faith in the song and not judge based on day one streams because a lot of the time the songs that get massive day one streams aren't the songs that then go on to be you know they just have a have a moment there are some songs that sustain that but it's I think it's short-sighted to um sort of dwell in the moment of that and be like there's so much online chatter about chart positions week one or sales figures week one or it's all sort of like based on like that sort of here and now moment and most of the things songs that we know or albums that become classics or um songs that have taken a while didn't have those moments week one and sometimes it's

important to remember that. Play is really good, man. Thank you. It feels like one of the things that I love about it, you know, we started this talking about the Beatles. It feels, especially with the worldly influence, it feels like you're, you know, you're channeling going and working with Ravi Shankar, you know?

Yeah. Working with Savin and Ilya and then having Cirque and Blake and all these great collaborators, obviously you can write a song by, yourself, why do you choose to write with collaborators? Because I think if I only wrote songs by myself, they would all sound the same eventually. They all sort of blow into one. And I think that sitting in a room with Ilya, he just brings a different energy and ideas.

And Sarban will bring different melodic energy and ideas. And Johnny and Blake and Circuit and Alvira and Dave. And anyone that I work with helps make my craft better. and I think that there are a lot of artists that feel self-conscious about having collaborators because they want people to think that they wrote the songs. I think if you know you can write songs, then surely working with other people to make it better, makes it better. I mean, 100%.

Yeah. I know you have this new idea of going play and you'll stop and rewind. When do you retire? When does stop come out? I don't know if stops of retirement records. I think stop might be the retiring from giving a fuck record. I don't know if stop's going to be the retiring record. Sure.

Because I still want to make records. I just, I feel like I have 10 big statement pop. Actually, I wouldn't even say subtract as pop, but I have 10 big statement campaign records to do, I think. and a record autumn variations there was no campaign there were no music videos we didn't work

the songs to radio but that I love that record it was really fun to make and I want to be able to still make records like that that matter but they're not I'm not touring it for four years

I make a record I put it out and my sort of distinction with the two same for collaborations is if there's a coloured cover then that's the like statement record

and if it's black and white that's a record that I just really wanted to make and really wanted to put out. If you were to give your kids the advice when they say, I want to do music, what do you say to them right now? Dare to suck. Dare to suck. Pick up an instrument, try and write a song.

Make sure you write it. And I think that, I mean, you're the same as me. You're going to the studio every single day. If you didn't come into the studio, you wouldn't write a song. You need to be in it to even, like, like get anything. So and you need to not be worried about it being bad. We are going to all write songs that suck, but you might write two songs that suck and one song might be the making of you. And I think you can't start being a songwriter unless you're just not scared

to be embarrassed and fail. So I'd say to my kids like pick up an instrument and just write, learn to sing, sound bad, write a song that sounds bad and then write another and then write another. and then write another, and then eventually you will get better at it. What songs do you want your grandkids to talk about? I don't know, really. I think I love my debut album. I think my debut album, because my debut album was written as a teenager. It was like between the ages of 15 and 19,

and it's very much like I love the idea that that was written when it was and why it was and put out, and that was the breakthrough of everything. So I think maybe I'd love them to like that album. I think perfect, because obviously it will be about, their grandmother. Subtract as a record, like, I feel is one of the most important records in my discography, even though it's not the most commercially successful.

I think it's definitely, like, up there with being as important as plus. Yeah, I don't know. What era of streaming do you belong to? 2014 to 2019, I'd say. Yeah. I think bad habits and shivers. were like after my peak dominance, I guess. They were still massive.

But like I'd say 2014, 2019 was my, my moment sounds so weird. But that was like the time where like I was locked in. Are you a good dad? Yeah, I think so. I think you'd have to ask my wife. But yeah, I think so. I'm definitely like a present dad.

And I think that when you, are a father who is in the music industry, you kind of have to like, it's not even like sacrifice anything, but you have to be like parenthood and my family is actually more important than working hard and success. So like if this is going well and this is going all right, that's success. But if this was going super, like if I was having, you know, five number ones off this record but me and Cherry weren't together anymore and I wasn't seeing my kids like that that wouldn't be great either so it's it's a balance of the two yeah and the thing about balance is like it's it's a balancing act like it's never fully balanced yeah like it's supposed to be like this push and pull

do your kids know who their dad is uh my eldest does yeah but not really but she kind of does but not not really i don't think it's like clocked she goes to school so kids do speak to her but yeah um yeah but on yeah on the like so the 2019 2014 2019 period where it was locked that was like a hundred percent work all the time no personal life no uh time for anything else and i think that's why it was successful and i think after 2019 i had my first daughter in 2020 and your priorities shift and i'm not working 100 percent at the time i'm working 40 percent at the time and you do see a knock on effect of that. I think to be to be in that upper echelon of the like pop game you got to be like all in. That's got to be your entire world. And I think that that is not

sustainable, especially if you want to have a family. I mean, I keep saying like you just don't want your kids to resent your plaques. No. No, you want them to be proud of them. And know that you're like I love that you live three minutes away and your life is centered around. I have a cars sticker on this. Amazing. Do you know what? I started watching cars and I didn't fuck with it. You didn't?

I didn't, no. I know that's going to be quite controversial. Cars 3 is pretty that. Watch that and then you can email me after you see that. Zootopia. Oh yeah, that's a good one. Fucking great.

The bit with the sloth. It's pretty classic. Fucking great. It's so funny. Dads can talk about this. We can talk about Bluey. And maybe you guys don't mess a blue yet, but that's a... Of course we fucking mess.

So good. Yeah, mate, Bluey sometimes makes me feel like a bad dad because the dad's so cool in it. I'm like, be that cool. We had, we were, uh, uh, we were having a writing camp here and a bunch of people outside in the back and everyone's going around talking about, um, who would they be starstruck by? Uh, and I said, whoever does the voice for Bluey. Yeah. Or for, uh, for a bandit.

Who would you be starstruck by? Do you get starstruck? Uh, I get starstruck by like. sports people. I think that with music, because we're behind the curtain, it's not that impressive. You know, like you meet people and we all kind of do the same thing. I think with, yeah, with sport, I don't know, I met messy and it's just, it was just cool. It's just, it's messy. Was he excited to me, yeah? Yeah. Yeah, I spoke, because his wife's a fan and she's come to a few gigs. The first time I met him was, I've met him a few times now, but I was at a Paris

San Germain gig, a game. And he came and he met me and he shook my hands. And I was like, hey, man, if you want ever come to a show with your wife, blah, blah, I'm talking for about two or three minutes. And then his like handler just comes up and just whispers in my ear and goes, he'll not speak English. And I'd be talking to him about two or three minutes and just been kind of nodded at me like this. That's really funny. Well, thanks for doing the podcast. I get the feeling we'll do this again. Yeah, thank you, man.

It's great. Really, really great. I mean it, man. There's, you've, your career coincides with mine in many ways. Like, I had just written the follow-up to fuck you for Cilo. And I was in with Cilow when Mike Cairn sent me an email saying, do you want to write with this redhead? It's going to be in L.A.

That would have been the trip I wrote Kiss Me. Yeah, well, I should have done that session instead of one. What's your, I often, I asked Sarvan this the other day because Sarvan's had so many hits. What's your biggest hit that you just don't tell anyone about? The one that's like massively successful that you're like, mm-hmm. Oh, I think the reality is like I put in order. I really am proud that my house was as big as it was. was, but I know that around certain people I should say, I should say, Dangerous Woman first

because they'll be somehow like, it like has a different cred than the song that was in every commercial at every single sport. I remember when my has came out and being like, that's a fucking great tune. Well, I mean, look, man. He's got some slappers as well. Yeah, yeah. Slappers. I mean, we'll go to, we, we can, I know we got a rap soon, but.

What's the, in the last 10 years, what's the song that you've been most jealous of? Songwriting wise, not success wise, songwriting wise. Song I'm most jealous of. I mean, the effortlessness of love yourself is really annoying. It's really annoying. Because it's like, it sounds like the song that should just, it should have, it should have taken like weeks to, whittle your way into that. And I just know that that did not take you weeks to write.

And it was probably just like, well, it also, like, we didn't really know at the time if it was any good. We just sort of, we just wrote it. And then it was in a pile of songs that were getting pitched.

Like, it wasn't even like, we're going to keep that. It was just a song that we'd written that then got pitched. What song would you be jealous of? What song, are you jealous that you, You did not write.

Jealous by Labyrinth, I think, is one of the best songs ever. So good. Yeah. In the last year, though, have you heard Sky Newman Family Matters? Oh. That, listen to that afterwards. That is, there's another song, I'll write these two down. There's a guy called Aaron Rowe, who's written a song called Hey Mar.

So Hey Marr and Sky Newman Family Matters. I'd probably be jealous of Haymar because it, it's kind of sing a songwriter song, whereas the Sky Newman one is so specific to her that I couldn't sing that. But maybe I'm jealous I wasn't involved in the writing of it. But those two are fucking great songs. The Rosalia album, the first one that came out was a bunch of songs. Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like I listened to and I was taken to a different planet. Yeah. I was like, I don't understand what she's saying. The cadences are so bizarre. The production's incredible. It's melodic. I feel something. And I just can't, I can't do that kind of writing.

I think that's where like sometimes the jealous stuff comes from, maybe it's more envy. Like I know I know how to write. Yeah. I know I could write the song, but why didn't I write that? That's like that's annoying to me. Like I love it and I'm like envious that I didn't think of it. But then when I think of like the albums that I love most,

it's like stuff I can't do. You can't, yeah. I find that with Aragut Singh, like the first song that I, heard of his was a song called Tumihoh. That's the one that's on Sapphire. No, no. That's it. Like, it was from a move,

mod, Bollywood movie called a shiki, a shiki two. I'm going to write these songs down for you because in the same way that that Rosalia album, because I, I'm spelled by and about that Rosalie her album as well. But Tumhiho,

when you listen to it, you're like, I can't sing like that. I can't write it like that. It's like the, his lyrical, his melodic toolkit is so, uh,

specific. to him that like no one else could do that song. I'll write these down for you so you can listen to them, but they're pretty fucking great. Well, I mean, I'd say call me, but that's not going to happen. We'll trade emails. But we'll trade emails. I really appreciate you, man. Thanks for coming on.

Thank you. We hope you enjoyed this episode. It was produced by me and Joe London in association with Mega House Music Group. If you liked this episode, go give us a rating at wherever you listen to to your podcast. And make sure to follow us at And The Writer is on all your socials. We'll see you next week.