And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 223: sombr | How a 100% Writer-Producer Took Over Pop

Episode Date: October 6, 2025

Today’s guest is one of the most exciting young artists in the world right now.A once-in-a-generation artist writing and producing every record himself — and turning that independence into global hits.His records aren’t just topping charts — many of them are 100%ers. Self-written, self-produced, and streamed hundreds of millions of times.He’s building a world entirely his own...In this episode of And The Writer Is, Ross Golan sits down with Sombr to unpack how he: - Writes and produces 100% of his music - Went from viral moments to global success - Deals with pressure, purpose, and proving himselfPresented by our friends at @NMPA  @splice  A huge thank you to our sponsors.Chapter list0:00 The Rise of Sombr: Bedroom Producer to Global Prodigy0:01:02;15 [NMPA] - Fighting for Songwriters (Season Sponsor)0:01:51 Early Discovery: Why Warner Music Bet on a 16-Year-Old0:03:38 My First Song Blew Up: Waking Up to 200K Likes & Columbia Records0:06:00;14 From NYC Roots to Proving Haters Wrong0:08:16 From Charlie Puth to Operatic Arias: My Secret Classical Music Training00:11:04 How I Dropped Out of LaGuardia to Get Signed (TikTok Made Me Quit)00:13:39 Opening for The Strokes at SXSW00:14:41 The Imposter Syndrome of a Global Superstar00:15:36 From GarageBand to Global Hits: My FLOPS & Early Projects (Cherry Valley)00:17:50 Who is Sombr? Shane vs. The Artist & Why New York Makes Anything Possible00:21:02 The TRUTH About "Caroline": She's Everyone... She's You.00:22:13 The $0 Photo Shoot That Became My Global Album Cover00:24:28 Advice to My 16-Year-Old Self00:26:18 My Secret Writing Method: Saving Choruses & How I Made the Album in 1 Month00:28:14 [NMPA] - The Power of Music Publishers (Sponsor Segment)00:28:56 [SPLICE] - Using AI Ethically & Protecting Creators (Sponsor Segment)00:30:42 "Back to Friends": Writing a Global Hit from a Career Low00:36:44 Working with Tony Berg: A Mentor and Real Instruments00:40:54 "Undress": Building Confidence After a Breakthrough00:43:40 Sacrifices of Fame: Losing My Social Life00:45:30 Anxiety and Expectations: Navigating Global Success00:51:23 Critics vs. Appreciation: Why Art Shouldn’t Be Rated00:058:09 The Final Word: Why the Haters Say I'm Not "Serious" (A Joke)00:58:50 The Beatles & The Muse: The Real Secret to Timeless Art00:59:11 Thank You & OutroNMPA fights for songwriters' rights, ensuring fair pay and protection.Check them out at NMPA.org and follow them on social media at @NMPAorgSplice is the industry’s top sample library—royalty-free for all. It empowers creators with its incredible library and ethical AI tools, supporting original artists every step of the way.Download Splice today and follow them on social media at @spliceAnd The Writer Is...Hosted by Ross GolanExecutive produced by Joe London and Jad SaadFollow us on socials at @andthewriteris Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

You're just doing 100% songs. It's crazy what you can do on your own, expecting to get made fun of. One of the fears I think a lot of artists have is that there'll be a one-hit wonder, and here you are with hits all at the same time. I was kind of flopping. You know, we'd put out like 18 songs.

There was nothing close to a hit. Two years went by, and I wasn't enjoying making music. Something like clicked inside of me where I was like, I'm just gonna make everything that I want to do without thinking of the internet or record label. And that was back to friends. The next day it had like 200,000 streams of day on Spotify, 300,000, 500,000, 600,000,

I just was posting this song every day, and it just started climbing. You write songs at the same level, the greatest writers who are currently around, and you do it alone. Anybody who doesn't get it is somebody who has never done it. How did you learn to do all the things? One of my biggest motivations is wanting to prove people wrong. This season is presented by NMPA, the National Music Publishers Association, champions of songwriters and publishers everywhere. Welcome to And The Writer is. I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's rising star is an already star, a genre blurring prodigy.

He's a 100% writer, producer, whose hypnotic melodies and storytelling are topping charts everywhere. His breakout is fueled by... nostalgic New York distortion and that generational business savviness. From his bedroom to awards shows, this writer-producer, Rockstar executive is on an insane, insane, insane run. And the writer is somber. Let's go. Let's go, dude.

You're here. Thank you for having me. So you know the podcast. Yeah, dude, it's my favorite podcast. That's not real. Is it? Yeah. No, I'm serious.

Oh, my God. You make me blush. So here's the truth. For the first time I knew about your music was, I was looking through my text, and it was August 24th, 2022, you were, I think at the time, like 16, 17, 16. Wait, you discovered me early then. Yeah, man. I was there early.

See? It's a mutual love. This is a mutual love happening right now. This is what happened was my friends over at Warner. I think you had just met them, give or take. And Chris Morris, who I had known since college. The man. And Aaron Beshuk, who, you know, was invited to my wedding.

Like, they were like... Did he go? He didn't. And I... But that... That was a scheduling issue, not a I don't like you issue, which maybe it is. I mean, Aaron, where are you, bro? Yeah.

I haven't talked to you in a day. But, you know, those guys were showing me what you were doing then and just like, you know, I feel like I was probably early on and who they were showing stuff. Like, what do you think of this? And it was sophisticated then. Did you feel like it was sophisticated then? No. It, like, was not supposed to happen. So, like, I was very green to writing and producing and creating. And Caroline, like, Caroline was, like, the first song I even, like, made of that genre. And, and I listened to Boni Bear's Forever ago. It spoke to me. It's like, it's. Like one of the first albums I listened to like when I was like in high school and like I really felt something that like my dad hadn't put me on to.

And I made the song Caroline. It was inspired by that album. And I just like I was going to school every day. And I just like I just posted it on TikTok on a whim like expecting to get made fun of. And I went to bed and then the next. day it had like 200,000 likes. And then like every record label was in my email. Like it was in the gold rush of TikTok where like, you know, like they had no idea it was going on. Like if someone started popping off on TikTok, like fucking everyone's on you. I'm sure it's still like that. But

and then I hit up my dad. I'm like, dad, Columbia Records is is in my inbox and he's like, what are you talking about? Don't get scammed. But then I showed him the TikTok. I showed him everything. Yeah. I mean, it's so wild. And I do think that there might be less of that now, where I think maybe people are watching it, but they're less likely to jump right on something that works. But I want to go back to the beginning because, you know,

your, even if that was the first thing you posted, it wasn't your first time dabbling in music. No. You know, so I remember hearing this story from Chris. and being enamored with, man, this guy, when I first started, your story, not mine, but when I first started, I was like, I'm going to start my own record label, my own publishing company, doing all this stuff. And I got a deal with Capital and EMI, really through EMI, and released music, and it totally flopped. But I do remember the idea of like, oh, I can do it all.

And so when I found out that you were kind of doing it all, I was like, man, this guy's living the like the music industry dream. Thank you, bro. Right from, let's just go from the beginning. You're a New York kid. Yeah. Tell me about your childhood a little bit. Yeah, I was born and raised on the Lower East side.

I skateboarded a lot as a kid. And from a young age, I took a liking to music. My dad had a lot of instruments around the house. What did he play? Guitar and piano. Is he good? Yeah. Does he write?

Yeah. So he's always written. You know, he was in bands when he was younger. So, I mean, my- Professionally? Dad, would you say it was professionally? Semide. Semide.

Do you read comment sections? Way too much. Why? Dude, because like, I want to know what people are saying about me. I'm human. Do you not? Yeah, I probably do. More than I, what?

Why? A glutton, I guess. It's weird. You get into modes where you know, you'll read 100 good comments, almost searching for like a negative one to see what it is that you have to fix. And that, that's the worst part. Yeah. No, that is so true.

like you'll open a comment section expecting it to be hate and then it'll be love so then you keep scrolling you're like looking okay where's the hate like and then you find it and you get sad and then but you look for it you know why it's my life why do you why do you feel the need to search for it now that you seem to be getting a lot of love in the world why are you still searching for the hate

I just want to see all the all the opinions. Does it fuel your creativity? It definitely like motivates me to prove people wrong. I think one of my biggest motivations other than being incredibly passionate about writing and producing is wanting to prove people wrong. So we're back on the Lower East Side. You're like you're in a house where there's a lot of instruments. at what point did you start picking up instruments? I remember my sister was taking piano lessons.

You mentioned Charlie Puth earlier. The first song I ever did in that lesson was a Charlie Pooth song, and then I sang it at the piano recital at the end when everyone else was playing piano. It was the song. It was the one about Superman. One call away. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mozilla. Mozilla and who else wrote that? Yeah, Mozilla. Shai Carter, right? We've had a couple of those guys on this. Really? Yeah. What up, guys?

They'll really enjoy hearing this. I'm going to text them all when we were done. I already told Charlie. What was that? I already told Charlie. You did? Was he stout? He was like, get out of my DMs, like, I'm going to kill you.

That is the least Charlie thing ever. I'm joking. I'm joking. He would tell you what he would tell you a key. your DM was in. No, he was very nice about it. Yeah. So you go and you sing this at a talent,

not a talent show, at a recital. When I think of recitals, I think like you had to sing songs in like Italian or something shit like that. No. Well, that was later. Really? So when I was looking at high schools, I wanted to go to an arts high school.

So there was LaGuardia, which is the main one in New York. There were a few, but LaGuardia is a public arts high school, where you can major in vocal, acting, instrumental, art, dance, and then like tech. So I auditioned for LaGuardia with like a Sam Smith song. And I waited all day. I auditioned.

I took the test. And then a couple months later, I found that I got in. And that was like the start of my classical training. So the day is like longer than a normal school day because you have to do your academic. then you have to do music classes. So we were singing Italian arias, German arias, French arias, and a couple other things. And, yeah, that, like, weird, weird fact about me.

Did you guys, was it all classical based, or did you do jazz? Did you do anything else? It was all classical-based. Yeah, like any, like, you had, it was like a, what do you call a class where you get to, like, choose your class? an elective. Yeah. There were electives for like where you could do like more popular music stuff and like

there's songwriting classes and I was actually supposed to do that elective. But then I got signed and dropped out because I posted that TikTok. That makes sense. Just like every other high school kid. So when what did you learn from the arias and from classical music that? you use as a musician today? Not a ton. I say the main thing would be the mouth shapes they teach you.

It's just like basically how to vocalize properly, you know, and hit certain notes, you know, like a different mouth shape will help you hit a higher note depending on like the, what's the fucking word? like a fucking E-A-A-A-O-F. Oh, well, that's called a vowel. The fucking, yeah, the vowel. The vowel.

No, there is a... You can tell I dropped out. I mean, I did the same day I went to school where I was like a Bachelor of Music. Now they have a pop program at USC, but when I went to school, it was like, it was classical and jazz. You know, I was like I was in the jazz group and my teacher would teach me jazz. What? Like instruments or vocal? Vocals.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah, I should have the same thing. Well, I think that the... No, I was asking you to sing. What am I singing? Something classical. Like Italian?

Like, do you have to learn like, va panciero? Toulosa. That's all you get. There you go. Perfect. We now just started the weirdest band of all time for a number of reasons,

but particularly because we only sing in Italian in different songs. Um, the, uh, I only remember honestly what I remember my voice teacher saying because I was like, I want to be in a rock band. I started making music. I, similar thing before years later. Like, I started getting noticed in college and I'd opened, my band opened for like the strokes. And we played with like, uh, really like Eves six and all these bands in like the night. Yeah, I mean, the strokes. Yeah, before they signed to RCA. What's your band?

Well, that band was not a band that you would know. I've released like three projects before I wrote songs for other people that people know. But it doesn't really matter. This is probably uninteresting. Dude, open for the show because I should be podcasting him, bro. You know what was weird was like this was South by Southwest in the year probably 2000 maybe. And there were you could watch. down the streets and there weren't a lot of people and we played a place called Iron

Cactus that doesn't have any bands of South by Southwest anymore. And I definitely wore plethora pants and I'm pretty embarrassed about that. I didn't see that. I had facial hair that was unappealing. We don't have to talk too much about that. But I just remember playing with a band that was like the most hyped band in America and watching them get signed at RCA. They had this, I probably still have the demo that they were handing out. like three songs or whatever. And just remember like seeing a band go from, it was the first time I'd seen a band go from nothing to huge,

even though I met a couple of the guys from Eve Six before that, and they had a worldwide song. But playing with a band where you could see hype going to something massive. Crazy. From the Lower East Side, I feel like you were surrounded by a lot of amazing art. You know, were you watching. Were you watching people go from nothing to huge?

No. I would say, like, the first, like, glimpse of that was myself. Like, I'm still, like, at a point where, like, I'm still, and by the way, I'm not calling myself huge. But, but, like... I think when you have number one songs and global number one songs, you can...

Do you know how big you are right now? Somber storms off the podcast because podcast host is too nice to him. You have this incredible skill set of being able to do everything. When you learn how to, it starts with learning how to sing vowels and then it starts like singing great songs. And then you have to figure out how to do all the things. Yeah. How did you learn to do all the things? Because the stuff that you're doing is not just, you're not just writing songs.

you very quickly figure out I need to like release music. I started on garage band. That was middle school. So I'm just messing around making beats. It was hip-hop beats.

It was low-fi beats. It was whatever. I was just like, I just wanted to create. And then in high school, well, yeah, no, sorry, back to middle school. I'm forgetting a step. So in middle school, like,

I made like my first, artist project. What was that called? I mean, they found it this week. So I'm going to say it's called Cherry Valley. And it was like it was during, wait, was I in high school? Because I think it was during COVID. Okay, yeah. So it was during COVID. So this must have been my freshman year of high school. Okay. So freshman year of high school, I made Cherry Valley. And this was, these are like the first songs that I made on Logic. And I was just like listening to a lot of SoundCloud. Like I had no clue what was going on and then making songs and, you know, using like Logic Stock plugins. And then I would, I made these songs. I literally bounced them and I put them on SoundCloud.

And, you know, I sent them around to the people at my high school. And that was that. What did they say? Not much. You know, probably peaked at like 100 SoundCloud plays pre-Somber universe discovering that project. And then, yeah, that was that. And I remember I would like self-promo in SoundCloud comment sections for that project. Be like, hey, if you like this, check out my song. And it was under this Cherry Valley project.

So cool story, braille. And then, yeah, my junior year is when I, oh no, yeah, my junior year is when I started somber. The, did you feel like, you know, what, when people call you somber versus Shane? When do you, when are you somber, when are you Shane? Brat, chill, bro. No. I think, I think like, somber is Shane and Shane is somber. Like, I think it's just me.

It's not a character, obviously, like, I'm a little bit of a different person when I'm on stage and singing and, you know, being a performer. But all the music is about my life. And it comes from me and it comes from my experience. So it's just, it's definitely me. How did you come up with the name? I was in high school.

I was dumb and I was just looking for like something that was available and I liked the word somber and that was taken. So I was like, okay, somber without an eat. Was it because of your initials? Was that like the goal was to get all your, is it? Well, I always tell people that my initials are in the name. So I sound like, whatever, intentional, but like it just. Just in case here. Yeah.

Just in case you have Amisha. like, what's my name? Oh, right. Yeah. No, but the initials are in the name, but I probably didn't even realize that when I picked the artist's name. How much did New York influence your musicality? I think in New York, you definitely grow up a lot faster than you do anywhere else, because, like, I was taking the subway alone to school by the end of middle school, which is very, very, very, young and you know you just you just learn a lot faster you navigate a city you know you you do a lot of things younger and one of those things was like music and like the like the possibility of like uploading it and putting it out and building a career like there when you're living in new

New York like anything feels possible. And obviously there's so many great bands from New York. So the strokes being one of them, your besties. I mean, it's weird. I don't think I've really talked about it with him, but Albert Hammond Jr.'s kid and my kid went to preschool together, so I would see him at school picnics, and that was just like, that was cool.

I should probably tell him this because now he will know this. What's up now? Now you know. You know, you doing releasing, tell me about writing Caroline before we talk about releasing it. Why did you write Caroline? It's so funny when someone asked me that because like, I don't know, bro.

Like, I was 16. Like, I felt like, I feel like I was just gaining consciousness as an artist. Like, I had no clue what I was doing. And, like, having one of the first songs, like, real songs that you write become that, you know, like I was just pushed into a career because of the virality on social media. Like it, I didn't know. Like, if I listened back to that song and I'm like, that song makes no sense, you know. Who's Caroline? She doesn't exist. She's everyone. She's you, you, bro. She's me. Finally. That was hot. My wife's going to be like, that was,

weird. That moment was weird. It was weird. I'm sorry, baby. Hey, wife. She's cool. She's supportive. She's supportive of who I am and this is me.

Yeah, you bet. I'm Caroline. When you release that, this is, I think the picture that I was sent was, you were wearing baggy pants, maybe holding like a Gretch or like

some sort of red semi-hollow body guitar in the middle like. the Lower East Side. Yeah. Is that by where you live? Yeah. Yeah, that's by where I live.

That was one of my skate spots. So story behind that cover art, Caroline cover. I wasn't signed to a record label when I put out Caroline. So I had no team to set up a photo shoot. So my sister and I walked around the neighborhood. I took one of my dad's guitars. And I just laid down on this stairway in Chinatown. and she snapped the photo

and that was the Caroline cover. When you see the virality of a song and it starts to do well, yeah, you're getting hit up by a lot of record labels but you now run a record label. No, I don't.

I mean, at that point, you're running a record label, man. You release, what is a record label? I don't know. A bank? Do you think that? No. I mean, like, somebody who helps an artist create a sound and distribute the sound and market it, that's a record label.

The fact that you were able to do it without the institutional parts of major labels is somewhat miraculous and also really impressive. you were running a record label. I mean, whether it's like, you know, the minute you release something and it's doing well, you know, it feels like you're running a record label. Yeah, 100%. I mean, it's crazy what you can do on your own. You know, you can make something viral

and put it up on district your kid and, and it's out. It's in stores. Yeah, it's beautiful. What's advice you'd give to a 16-year-old who wishes they were somber? What up, little bro. You don't want to be me, bro. Let's be real.

Be yourself. Do you really want, do you really think people don't, like, why wouldn't someone want to be you? I mean, you're a rock star now. Well, I think everyone should be their self. Yeah. Do you think of yourself as a rock star? No. I don't think of myself as any.

anything. You've just sold out an arena. Somer did, not Shane. That's Somer, not Shane. That's what, that's the line. I mean, that's, I mean, how crazy is that? It's wild. I mean, I'm, I'm so grateful. It's so crazy, man. It doesn't feel real. I mean, I did that. I still, like, the biggest crowd I've played for

is probably like 2,000 people. And, like, I'm going to play my first crowd of 5,000 plus. people in like a week. Are you nervous? Not really. Do you get nervous when you perform? I get nervous like five minutes before and then I feel good when I get on stage. Yeah.

I feel that. When you know, when these, you know, you release, I barely know her. And at this point, it feels like the train has left the station. Like, it felt like you already know who you are at this point. But then you kind of, you grow on your sound from it. What made you dive further into your musicality and even kind of hone in more on what the sound of somber is? I'd say like making, I barely know her.

Like, I wasn't necessarily prepared to make it. For a lot of it, I didn't even realize I was working on a project. These are like a lot of songs that I've made the past year and kind of wrote the choruses and then saved them. That's how I write music. I write a chorus and then I save it. And I wrote Back to Friends and that became a massive success. which I didn't expect, and then undress came.

And then all of a sudden I'm somber, this breakout artist, but I wasn't prepared for that. And, you know, my label's telling me I need an album now. So the album became all these songs that I had written and all these choruses that I thought were amazing. And, like, really, like, I was tying it together as an album in like the last month of creating it because that was just my reality.

And I'd say like there's only a few songs in that that I like actually like wrote fully post quote unquote blow up. And those feel like definitely like the most current Leamy, which would be like 12 to 12 under the mat, the last song. And like, that's really it. NMPA is our lead sponsor yet again. What is the National Music Publishers Association? What do publishers have to do with songwriters anyway?

Well, unlike artists who can be unsigned artists, there is no such thing as an unsigned writer. You can be a self-published, a co-publish or a published writer. Publishers only make money if songwriters make money. So, NMPA goes and fights for you. They go to Congress, they go and support the community, they fight DSPs to get you paid more. That's what they do.

They fight for you and they fight for this podcast. So thank you for fighting for songwriters NMPA. Thank you for fighting for us too. Okay, so I use Splice. And I'm pretty sure every producer who listens to this uses Splice, but if you don't, you need to start using Splice. They have the most incredible licensing library that you can go through for any kind of samples you can think of.

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All the other songs were written before these songs. When you said it blew up but you weren't expecting it. I mean, you started working with Warner Records. You know, what was your expectation? I mean, I was working with Warner Records for over two years before anything happened. I mean, Caroline was like, you know, peaked at, like, like, you know, did like 200,000 streams a day for a week and then went downhill. Like, that's, it's not enough to recoup a record deal.

And then, you know, like two years went by and there was no commercial success, which is not why I'd do it. But I would like, I think that I was kind of flopping before back to friends, you know. in terms of a, the success of an artist signed to a major record label was kind of not a success. You know, we'd put out like 18 songs and there were, there was nothing close to a hit. So I was just always in my head, like once it becomes a commercial thing, like I'm so young, I don't really know what I'm doing still. I think like, like you just don't know like when you're creating something, you don't know if it's like really what you want to make and really coming from you or this is you trying to make your record label happy or, you know, not have to move back in with your parents. So that's where I was and I kind of hit a low and I wasn't enjoying making music.

and then something like clicked inside of me where I was like, I'm just going to make something and not try to capture anything or like try to make a hit or I'm just going to make what I want to everything that I want to do without thinking of TikTok or the internet or record label. And that was back to friends. It's so crazy. It's crazy.

What's that chorus lyric about? I think it's something that's always fascinated me. Like, how could, like, how could we go back to being friends when we just shared a bed? Like, it's just, you know, like having sex with someone and seeing that same person a week later. and, you know, it's like they're just another stranger. That song is still, you know, top five top in, I don't know where it is today. It's Spotify Global. It's not just, it didn't just react in the Lowery Side or in your high school.

It's like where Caroline kind of blew up and all of a sudden the next day you're like, you let you uploaded it and then the next day there's, however many thousands of likes, this is a whole other level. When did you know back to Friends was a game changer? It's funny because it wasn't supposed to be. Like, I mean, I wrote back to Friends and I listen back to it. Like, when you write a song and like, like, you, whenever I've written a life-changing song, I've, when I've listened back to the chorus, like I, I felt it.

I mean, when I wrote back to friends, I couldn't like feel, okay, this is a smash, one of the biggest songs of the year. You can't predict that when, you know, when I was back where I was. But I listened to it and I was like, this is really special. I feel like it's going to, you know, live in a really special place and serve a really special purpose. So I made that and like I knew that there was something. But still, like, I was, you know, my position at the label was still what I described earlier. Like, I was not a priority. You know, I had just parted ways with my management, unmanaged.

And I, you know, I kind of was at a career low. Like, I think my agents were considering dropping me. And I released that song, like, right, right on Christmas. Like, when the whole industry was shut down because I just wanted to get. get it out and, you know, thank you my label for even letting me do that. But I think it's like a matter of them like just being like, well, like, let's just put stuff up and try to make something work. So I put that up around Christmas and like it was my biggest song debut ever.

But it wasn't a hit. Like it wasn't a hit. But it's still like, I think everyone saw that and we're like, whoa, we didn't know Sommar had that in him. and let's start paying attention to this. So it was kind of just like stayed there for a little bit. It wasn't like a massive song. And then I just was posting the song every day.

And I just started climbing slowly. You know, 200,000 streams a dance, Spotify, 300,000, 500,000, 600,000. Once they're like 600,000 in a day, we were like, okay, this is getting serious. Now it's doing like, what, six? Million. Million a day. Does it still have legs? Like, is it going to go to $8 million?

Or is it more like... God, I hope. It's so crazy. Well, because, like, the ceiling just feels like it just keeps moving up. It's weird. Like, like, I've... It's weird how a song that I made can get to a point where it's like, okay, this growth is just out of my control now. Like, I was promoting this every day.

I got to the point of, like, You know, a million streams a day, which was crazy. But then, like, it gets to a point where it's like, I'm not doing anything. This thing is just a beast. And it's weird. They say the average song now for a hit has 7.4 writers per song. So if it's 7 writers, it's 14.28%. You're at, you're just doing 100% songs.

Why? It's not because, like, I'm greedier as it's like, I want all the royalties or this and that. It's because, for me, writing is such an outlet and such a emotional thing for me and, like, vulnerable. And I can't write around people. Like, I'm, like, shy. I'm scared of being vulnerable. so I just have never been able to write what I feel is my best and most genuine work around people. And then I've discovered that, you know, I think just being alone with my mind, I feel that I'm most powerful.

And that's just me, my process and what has worked for me. I'm, you know, a big proponent of collaborating. I've done a lot of good work collaborating, but I probably write my best songs when I write by myself. And the biggest songs I have, a lot of it was written by myself. And I think it's hard to find time to do that

in an era when everyone's trying to move very fast and get as much done as possible. It seems to take a while. Does it take you a long time to write a song by yourself? Probably like, I mean, it's hard because some songs I'll write a chorus and I won't revisit it for months, but in terms of actually like time writing the songs, it would be like two-hour sessions over like a four-day period.

Tell me about Tony Berg. Yeah. What was it like working with Tony? I was introduced to Tony by my A&R. Chris. And he was the first guy I ever met, the only guy I've ever met. And we just like instantly clicked. He is 70, and I'm... Not 70.

Not. I mean, I met him when I was 17, just gotten signed. And we just clicked. Like, we just had this instant bro connection. And, like, from the moment I met him, I knew, like, I could just, like, I could just see, like, like, a career and, like, life working with Tony. It was weird. that's awesome so we've been working together

co-producing everything since so I will produce out the whole song and I will lay down a lot of instruments and record all the vocals and then I'll bring it into Tony and then we will co-produce the rest

in a real studio with real instruments it's weird when the way records used to be made was like this. This is like you could be a musician in 1975 and this would be your story. It's just so rare to hear it now. It's weird and it's bad. What's bad? That people aren't using real instruments.

That they're not using real instruments. That's fair and also that I think there was a time when an A&R person would do their job, which is an artist and repertoire. They would help the, you know, they'd sign an artist. They would help them find their repertoire. They would help them produce it. And they would go to often like a producer, you know, the artist would sign. They'd say like, hey, you should meet this person.

And the artist would come and be like, this is amazing. I could work with Tony Berg. And then they would be like, heck yeah. Now they go and they're like, we're going to introduce you to 40 different producers. You're going to meet all them and get really. confused as to who you are. And then you who never really worked in the major label system are going to have to figure it out, like, through, sift through the 40 producers you don't know and decide

who you work with. And kudos to both your A&R and you for finding someone and believing in the process, because that's probably a lot of why it's so successful. Yeah. I mean, art is not something that should involve speaking. date and collaborators. I agree. So I agree with that.

I mean, we have to talk about on dress. So it's huge. It's not like it's just back to friends as also huge. You know, like you one of the fears I think a lot of artists have is that there'll be a one-hit wonder. And here you are with like hits all at the same time. Tell me about writing undress. Undress was the first song I made after Back to Friends. So I had made Back to Friends.

Like I told you, it was the biggest debut yet. It wasn't a hit yet. But I had this newfound confidence because it was like, you know, it was the Back to Friends was something I made with a different approach, like nothing else in mind except making what I wanted to make. So I had this confidence like, okay, people can get behind my taste and like, not that my music before, that wasn't my taste. But I don't think it was the most genuine just because of like I was navigating being signed and trying to work commercially. It's like all this internal brain stuff.

It happens to every artist that gets signed, even if they say it doesn't. So I was realizing that I just had to be true to myself. So I made undressed. I made a drum groove. I played that guitar bass line that you hear in the intro, and then I played that guitar riff that you hear in the intro on the post-chorus. And then I just sang the verse. I wrote the verse while recording on the spot.

And then I wrote the chorus, and that was all the first day. And then the second day, I did a little. bit more production work and I posted it online and it was the biggest like snippet leak debut I'd ever had and that coming off of the success of Back to Friends I think we were all just freaking out having dropped out of high school and immediately going through this process of getting a record deal and releasing music and having hits do you feel like you're missing out on that you miss out on your latter part of your teenage years? Yeah, like, I'll definitely, like, now more than ever,

like, I'll definitely get down at times because it's like, I don't have time to really see girls or, like, hang out with friends because I'm never home anymore. But I'd say, like, I experienced, like, a little bit more of, like, a, like, a college, like, experience socially. and when I first moved to L.A. and like I was signed, but, you know, not like I am right now. But the minute back to friends and undress started working,

like I have just completely lost my social life, which, you know, is a sacrifice that I had to make. Where do you see, you know, album two, album three, album four? Or, you know, when you, with this kind of, you know, growth, is there a time where you'll be able to take a break and bring back some of that? Or are you just going to keep going, going, going? I think I'm going to take a break after the album two.

I think right now, like, I don't feel like I got everything out of me with I barely know her. Yeah. Like I wrote the best song I've ever written. you know, on the last week deadline of I barely know her and that didn't make the album. Can I hear it?

Yeah. I think if you heard the chorus, you'd be like, that's a hit. Can I just have it? No. It's for me. When you produce, I mean, this is like a pretty surface level question,

but when you produce songs, like, what plugins do you use? I'm not telling you all, bro. What's your vocal chain, bro? I use a lot of all hollow. I use a lot of sound toys, you know,

some sketch cassettes, you know. Sick, me too. When you're about to, you're about to you know, really go on the road and you're going to be going through Europe and doing the whole thing. Are you excited to connect with

fans outside of the U.S.? Um, Super excited. I mean, I just went to Japan for the first time for festivals. How was it? Crazy. Like having people from Japan wait in the airport for me with signs for me. Like, these are people from Japan.

I am a kid who is from New York City. It's surreal. It's just going to get weirder. At what point did your, you know, when you live, leave high school, my assumption is that your family was dropping out of high school, your family was supportive of this endeavor. At what point did your family feel like you made it? I think only recently, like, I think, I think, like, when I, when they start telling

me that everyone from their life is reaching out to them about me. Right. That's when it felt like it. And it honestly kind of feels like I feel bad because I kind of feel like I'm burdening them in a way. Like I don't know. Like I like attention, but like I don't want to like put them in a position where like, like, you know, all my sister can hear about is, is me. You know, I want my sister to like be able to like, I don't want her to be somber. is sister.

Does she play piano with you now? No. Do you guys travel together as a family? Like I feel bad because like really I only get to see them when they come chase me on tour. Which is another reason like I feel like I'm a burden. It's weird though

because, you know, the pride that these people have for you, I guarantee they do not see it as a burden. Yeah. Because this is like it's sort of our, you know, I'm generally new to being a dad, you know, and say my, it's all you'd want. All you'd want is your kids to be doing what they love and doing what they love like worldwide.

I'm not talking about like the money part. I'm not talking about, I'm just talking about the process. Yeah. Of like the fact that you, you have this drive to do another album, like, that's. the drive is what they're proud of. Not like the friends who hit them up and say, hey, congrats on your, you know, like, that's fine. But yeah. Would you want it to be different?

No. It's just like I'm just navigating it, navigating this. And like I've been put in a position like where I'm so public. And now like everyone that knows my family knows about, you know, I just played the VMAs. And it's like, now the last thing I want to do is like let them down. And I just, like, it motivates me to like, like, I can't control it. Like, I just have this anxiety, you know, when it comes to me being in the position I am now and then my family. I just have this anxiety because I feel like I can't be there with them as much as I'd like to and there's nothing I can do about it unless I, you know, sacrifice everything that's going on in my career or a lot of the things.

and it's like, I just like, it's just this feeling in my chest that I can't really get rid of. Did you have anxiety before you had hits? Yeah, I'm a super anxious person. You have anxiety as a child? Yeah. I think it's like, like before I had hits, it was the anxiety of, you know, like, I don't have hits. I don't want to be a failure and be an embarrassment. like the high school dropout that didn't make it work in music and yeah but even if you talk to

a high school dropout who gets signed to a major record company out of context that that that could have been enough yeah yeah it could have been you know like I think we sometimes our expectations of ourselves are just are so extreme yeah I definitely have really extreme expectations. What are your expectations now? I mean, I just want to be great. Would that make you happy? Yeah.

Are you happy now? Yeah. Do you feel underestimated because of your age? I definitely, I don't know. It's hard. I mean, like, that whole topic is like, first of all, I don't even think I don't think

art or music or anything is made to be rated or given a rating. So I think no matter what people factor in like my age, the fact that you know, I can come off like a

little piece of shit. I think there's no there shouldn't be a a rating or like a anything. I think art should be appreciated or liked or disliked. But art is subjective, obviously.

Something subjective, you can't give a fucking rating because you don't fucking know. I made a deal because, you know, I'm in New York a lot and do a lot of stuff in theater. And I made a deal that everyone leaves the show, a show, whatever it is. And the first thing they say is like, I didn't like the song and the second act. Like they point that.

And I made it a deal that whoever I go and see a show with theater, music, band, I don't give a shit what it is. I'm going to ask this question. I'm going to say, what was your favorite thing about that show? If you see that movie that's clearly bad, what was your favorite part of that show? movie. Yeah. Like, critics should not, the idea that the word critic feels like these people are entitled to critique rather than to appreciate.

Yeah. Why critics who say they love the art aren't, their job should be to be appreciators. 100%. Their job should be, this is what you would love about this album. Let me tell you about the 10 things you will love about it. maybe this at the very end you can say I kind of think this could have been better even if the album is trashed to be like

the effort this person put in was magnificent and they did this and that and the other and then at the end maybe critique but I feel like critics in particular take the idea of critiquing as that that's their job and it's not it should be to how do you drive people to this art

I couldn't agree more. It's about critiquing. Well, it's not about, it shouldn't be about finding an angle. I think, and I think that is, there's too much hate in this culture and there's too much like, it should have been this, it should have been this or like, this is just another male artist that gets a lot of hate in certain name. And it's like, this is not what it's about. happy that there are people who are young who, who, you know, are self-made, who are making music

that they are passionate about, that is alternative and whatever, be happy that it's reaching people and doing well. You know, there's, I find that a lot of people. The reason why you're on this podcast is because I saw the growth. Yeah. It's because I saw from Caroline and being introduced to that. And the first thing was like, it's like this bony verthine then to see where it's grown into this. The reason why you're on this

isn't because of the fact that you have hits now. It's the fact that you didn't have hits when I first heard you. It's that I'm impressed with that growth. Thank you. Like you've earned the position of being on a show of writers because you write songs at the same level

of the greatest writers who are currently around and you do it alone, it's astounding. Thank you. Anybody who doesn't get it is somebody who has never done it. We'll get to this next, but I'm just going to throw out a few things. We used to do this and do like a top five,

but I'm going to just list a rapid fire some stuff and just the first thing that comes to your head. TikTok. An incredible tool. New York. My home. Art. Music.

Record deals. Great. Mom. Love. Last one, your dad. My dad? Great man. Thank you for doing this podcast.

Thank you for having me. I mean it. I mean it. I like, there's just, it's what's so exciting about what's gone on for you. One is, you know, I love it. Aaron, Chris, I like the people at Warner. I like the fact that they showed me your music so early on that I could see this process. And when I went back to my text to see how far back it went, like, because I was like, man, I've known about this guy for a long time.

And to see how big your career has become isn't because of TikTok. it's not because of like some TMZ story. It's like it's because you've grown as a songwriter. Full stop. Your career continues to grow because you're getting better and better. And I can't wait till we sit down for your next album and your next album. But first you're going to call me a co-writer on this, whatever this song is that you didn't release yet.

And I want 50% of it. bro no no um yeah you heard it here i wrote it yeah i mean respect everything you said but my success is because i was once paparazzied on you know with addison ray oh yeah that's right yeah that that is why i'm on this podcast how was how was we're doing a music video with addison um great i love her she's amazing um yeah man it's exciting that's a weird way to end this i got all emotion telling you how proud I am of your work and now we're talking about Edison it's great I don't really know her personally

but she's you know guys from the vibe of somber's energy throughout this podcast you can tell he's not very serious about his art guys I'm joking I hope look man you go back to the Beatles and you watch those interviews and I don't think any if you judge you call me as good as the Beatles

that's what I was about to say you know what's crazy about the Beatles you know crazy fat what I think we said this on are you one of them No, I'm too old. Beatles broke up when they were, none of them were 30 when they broke up. They did everything in their teens and 20s.

That's when you have the muse. That's when you have the muse. Who's your muse? I'm not telling you on the record. This is where you blow me another kiss. Okay, all right, that's enough. Thank you so much for doing the podcast. Appreciate me.

Thank you. We hope you enjoyed this episode. It was produced by me and Joe London in association with Mega House Music Group. If you like this episode, go give us a rating at wherever you listen to your podcast. And make sure to follow us at And The Writer is on all your socials. We'll see you next week.