And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 225: Julia Michaels pt.2 | The Woman Who Changed Pop

Episode Date: October 20, 2025

Julia Michaels has quietly rewritten the emotional DNA of pop music.From Selena Gomez to Justin Bieber to Sabrina Carpenter — her pen reshaped how vulnerability sounds on the radio.In this episode, Julia sits down with Ross to unpack the craft behind her catalog: the psychology of honest writing, the architecture of a hit, and the years she spent changing pop from behind the glass.They dive into the writing of hits, the evolution of her artistry, and what it means to sustain creative integrity in a fast-changing industry.Chapters0:00 Intro: The Woman Who Reshaped Pop Music0:59 Welcome Back: Reflecting on 8 Years in the Industry2:13 Music Industry Evolution: Then vs. Now3:00 Adapting Songwriting to Social Media and Trends4:32 Early Career Advice: Mental Health and Boundaries6:03 Panic Attacks and Performance Anxiety9:25 From Songwriter to Artist: Reluctance and Breakthrough11:23 Influence on Songwriting: Changing Pop's Sound15:06 Hit Runs, Burnout, and Creative Pauses17:55 Writing for Disney's Wish: Behind the Scenes19:42 Future Plans: Musicals, Retirement, and Balance21:05 Artistry and Collaborations23:00 Inside the Sabrina Carpenter Camp29:01 Breaking Down Hits: Taste, Bed Chem, and Coincidence30:50 Joining Tate McRae: From 17 to Global Hits33:39 Favorite Producers: Ryan Tedder, Stargate, and More36:04 Working with Ed Sheeran: Panic, Brotherhood, and Hits39:30 Crafting Lose You To Love Me with Selena Gomez43:24 Longtime Bond with Selena: Firsts and Milestones45:50 Celebrating Wins in a Changing Industry47:19 Songwriter Struggles: Pay, Radio, and Streaming50:26 Fair Splits and Standing Up for Writers55:09 Gender Challenges: Overworking Female Writers1:00:06 Regimented Life: Balance and Boundaries1:02:40 Running Her Own Label: Freedom and Control1:04:15 Career Lows and Highs1:06:10 Perfect Studio Moment: Working with Britney Spears1:07:34 Reflections: Where She Thought She'd Be1:08:45 Uncut Demos and Sacred Songs1:11:27 Wrapping with Selena, Benny, and Unlikely Stars1:15:55 Ego-Free Sessions and Lifelong Roots1:18:22 Outro and CreditsNMPA fights for songwriters' rights, ensuring fair pay and protection.Check them out at NMPA.org and follow them on social media at @NMPAorgSplice is the industry’s top sample library—royalty-free for all. It empowers creators with its incredible library and ethical AI tools, supporting original artists every step of the way.Download Splice today and follow them on social media at @spliceAnd The Writer Is...Hosted by Ross GolanExecutive produced by Joe London and Jad SaadFollow us on socials at @andthewriteris Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I never wanted to be famous. I just wanted to make good songs and if there was someone in Iowa that related to it, great. One of the most in demand songwriters in pop music. This woman has reshaped pop music. Julia Michaels! Have you changed how you write because of the way people consume music? Yes and no. I was doing two, three sessions, sometimes a day.

They made me feel like my career was going to be over if I didn't say, Yes to every opportunity. And you look difficult from a, from a label. If you're like, hey, be super great if we could have a fee. They're like, whoa, whoa. Most people get record deals. That's all they ever wanted. Yes.

What they want is the fate. Right. What's the lowest part of your career? I don't talk about these experiences. This season is presented by NMPA. Welcome to And The Writer is. I'm your host. Ross Golan. Today's superstar composer is no stranger to crafting global hits or to

Anne the writer is. She is certainly one of the most influential writers of the past decade. In fact, I don't think there's a female artist who doesn't have Julia Michaels as one of their lyrical muses. Both as a pop star and writer, this woman has reshaped pop music. And the writer is, my good friend, Julia Michaels. Hi. You know, this is obviously the second time you've been on this. The first time, it's not totally dissimilar, except for it was eight years ago. Yeah.

And we're still here. That's what I was going to say. Can you believe that? Why are you still here? Well, that's a loaded question, Ross. It sure is. No, I mean, I think at the core of it all is because we, we like. It, you know, music is so powerful and beautiful.

And what a gift that we have this outlet to create and actually be able to live off of the thing that we love. Like, that's so incredible. What's the difference in the music industry from when we first talked in 2017 to now? Well, I think the difference probably is, I mean, I was much younger, so I was much greener, you know. I think that maybe I was just, you know, still getting my foot in the door, so maybe I wasn't like taken as seriously as I am now. So I think I think the thing that's changed for me is maybe a little bit more of respect. But I mean, from when we started to now, I mean, you know, post-COVID, like streaming has become so big. TikTok has become so big. I mean, so much has

changed and you have to constantly be evolving with the times. Have you changed how you write because of the way people consume music? It depends on the artist. Yes and no. What is that man? It depends on the artist that is very aware of their presence, their social media presence. You know, I'm all for helping someone create whatever and however they want to

create. But yeah, if they know that they have a strong social media presence and they know kind of what their audience will gravitate toward, then they will write it that way. And so I will just help. Being somebody who's had a lot of artistic success, do you follow TikTok trends that you can use with the artists you write with outside of yourself? No. I think I mostly live under a rock. So if there is some sort of like social media trend, that's typically coming from the artists that I work with. I mean, a lot of the artists that I work with are 10 years younger than me. And so they're like a little bit more aware of how life is moving and changing. And I learn a lot through them and, you know, vice versa.

But no, I don't think so. Having been through this circuit from a very young age, I know we talked about, you know, the back in the Lindy Robbins era of our lovely friend, Lindy, and, you know, from when you were 16 to now, what do you give advice to younger artists? having gone through it, do they look at you as somebody who they can ask for advice? I'm not typically giving advice. If someone asks me, I'm happy to do that. But I don't just like push myself on somebody, you know? But, you know, I do let people know how much of a whirlwind it is and how exhausting tour can be and really just trying to advocate for somebody's mental health

because I don't think I don't think artists realize that once you sign to a major label and you're told to do XYZ like just how overwhelming and consuming it is and so I'm always like hey I wasn't aware and I was exhausted and so drained and mentally just depleted of everything, like take care of yourself. Like stand up for yourself. It's okay. It's okay to stand up for yourself, you know. What's an example of a situation where you felt like you should have stood for yourself, but you didn't? Oh my gosh. I feel like there's been so many. Honestly, I would say probably my first Billboard performance. I, uh, issues had just. I, um, issues had just gotten so big and I wasn't prepared. I mean, you know, I was writing every day. I was

very happily in the background. And I remember getting a call and being like, you're going to perform on the Billboard Awards. And I was like, can I think about it? And they were like, no. And I had like a full panic attack on the Billboard Awards. It like during my performance. It was just like, I wasn't ready. When you watch it, can you see it? Oh yeah. At the very end, you can see me like turn to my piano player and I was like, I can't breathe. And she's like, I don't know, I don't know what to do for you. Like, I don't know. And I just, I just wasn't ready for any of that. Are you ready now? No. No, I still have horrible social anxiety and maybe it's because of that. Maybe it's like a result of that of knowing I wasn't prepared and maybe there's some.

From that moment? Something, yeah, where I was like, oh, I'm not ready for this. I'm not ready for this. And maybe, you know, even then, now, I'm like, yeah, no, I get so, I have such bad performance anxiety. It's so bad. What do you do it? That's a fantastic question.

Why do I do it? I think it's mostly because I love my fans and they're so unconditional and amazing. and they've been there for me for the last eight years of my life. And, you know, I know that it makes them happy. And when I'm up there and I see them singing lyrics back to me, I'm like, oh, we're like in this together. You know, that makes me like a little less nervous. So I do it for them, really.

It is weird. Like, I get terrible anxiety. Awful. In front of people, but something turns on. and I know that I always I think most of the time I enjoyed having performed you know more so than I enjoy performing right sort of like knowing that I got through it yeah with like the best I could do yeah given that I was so nervous that somehow has the last couple times I've sort of just like fully dissociated before going on stage like I'm just not really even there and I'm just not really even there. I performed with Zed at Coachella, and my fiancé was there with me. And I got off the stage, and he was like,

what did the fire feel like? I was like, there was fire? Like, I didn't even, I wasn't even aware that there was even fire. I mean, how crazy that, I remember the reluctance in the beginning of your artist career. Yeah. You know, that I think the industry is particularly difficult. for women and I want to get into that.

Yeah. But the idea of, okay, enough people want to hear you sing, there's enough pressure to be like, you should do this. And the songs that you're writing are good enough to compete that when you release it and it happens very fast, how quickly you have to, you know, most of people get record deals, that's all they ever wanted. Yes. You know, all they wanted was to be in the limelight.

So, like, they missed the step that they should probably write good songs for me. You know, and they just hope that, like, they fall into good songs. Yeah. But what they want is the fame. Right. I was the complete opposite of that. I was writing songs for and with other artists. You know, I just loved writing songs.

And I just happened to write one song that was. really personal to me that a label executive heard and was like, we should put this out. But I never, like, subscribed to the idea of fame. I never wanted to be famous. I just wanted to make good songs. And if there was someone in Iowa where I'm from, like, that related to it, then I was like, great. How often do you get stopped in public? It depends where I am it depends where i am if i'm in l.a i get stopped if i'm in Nashville i get stopped um and if i'm in like italy or something like sometimes all being but like most of the time not and i like that like i'm happy to take a picture with someone and give someone a hug but i kind of love that i can

just be a normal human being. And, you know, if you're not in the music industry, if you're not a songwriter, if you don't, like, know songwriting, then most of the time people don't care to know who I am, which I'm, like, totally fine with it. Are you aware of the influence you've had on the songwriting community? No.

I don't know. Like, there's, it's a really interesting thing because, I would think when we were first starting to do sessions together at that time, like that 2015, 16, 17, you know, all that. Such a wave. You know, it's like, what was that? It was such a wave. It was a wave. But it was, I think the things that you did, I think the things that you did in the studio ended up really changing how, like it, it, it obviously became.

the sound of a few artists. And I think they were so popular and they're so unique that other people tried to emulate this thing. Yeah. That is still, I feel like people bring up, you know, one of your lyrics or one of your ideas or wanting to do something like that. And you can hear on the radio sometimes or hear other artists emulating what is like not quite a Julius song.

It's like it really, to me, I would think that's imitation is the best form of flattery. Yeah. Do you feel that way? I've never been really good at giving myself credit like that. You know, I think like, just like I have learned from people that have been come, you know, before me, you know, people kind of learn from the people that come before them and so on and so forth. But for me, I've just always tried to do things that felt

against the grain. You know, when we were coming up in 2015, it was like pop. You know, it was like Katie Perry and Gaga and Kesha and it was like big pop songs. And I was like, we need a ballad. Anyone? You know, like I was always trying to do what was opposite. And basically, anytime an A&R was like, oh, we need this kind of a banger. I'd be like, cool. So I'm going to not do that. I'm going to do something else because now everybody's going to be doing that. You've given that brief to 25 songwriters, so I'm not going to do that.

I'm going to do something completely different, and that's going to stand out. And, you know, I guess it's always been a little, like an undertone of strategy, the whole course of my career, even down to, you know, sessions. I'll see an artist that I have to work with and I'll sort of study that artist like, okay, they like sort of high concept stuff. I know this songwriter does really well, high concept stuff.

I'll bring her in. This producer does this kind of vibe. Like, I'll bring them in. Or, you know, like this artist loves emotional things. Like, cool. He and I or she and I or they and I can do it together. And this producer will be great with this. You know, I've just always,

I've just always been that way. When, you know, there's, I think a lot of writers go through runs, but most people's runs, there's some book about it. Someone will hear this and send it to me, but something where it's that most artists have this four-year run. And athletes, too. Like four years tends to be the run that people have. So they, you know, by the end of a four-year run, they are exhausted and they just, start doing something else. You know, it's the idea, we've said this in other, when Belly and was on, he talked

about the chairmaker, that the chairmaker starts to hire other chairmakers, and then, you know, you start to have the manufacturing company, then you have multiple factories, and you start to get further and further from being a chairmaker. You've gone on multiple runs, but they weren't as a songwriter. Yeah. But they're not next to each other. You know, it's like, take me through a little bit, you know, take me a little bit of the journey from that first run that has, you know, sorry and those kinds of songs to the latest run that, you know, has sports car and whatnot. Yeah.

What happened in between the two sort of seemingly clear runs? Maybe you don't see them as clear runs. No, yeah, for sure. Yeah, no. So it was good for you and sorry and hands to myself. And then basically after those, I started doing, you know, artist stuff. And so then, you know, issues came out. And then I went on tour for, you know, almost three years. So that took up a lot. So that took up a lot. And so then, you know, issues was came out. And then I went on tour for, you know, almost three years. So that took up a lot. And so that took up a lot of my time and then COVID happened. So I was, you know, I wasn't doing Zoom sessions. That for me was just like, no, I need to be in the room. I, because I think the best part about songwriting is we're all so insecure that most of the time we won't say anything, but you'll hear somebody mumble something. And you're like, what was that? You know, like someone has a little idea,

but they're like afraid to say it. And you're like, oh, but that could be really great. Zoom takes all that out. And so I just couldn't get down with the Zoom. So I didn't really write songs for almost a year and a half. And then in that time, if the world was ending, was doing so well. And I was kind of working on an album. Then the world picked up.

Then I worked on a movie for three years. So I wasn't doing pop songs for a long time. And then once that was done And I had a little more freedom Then I started doing more stuff with Sabrina and Tate Before we get to the Sabrina and Tate stuff I mean you wrote a Disney movie Like there's no human on the planet

Who doesn't want to write you know Yeah a Disney movie No I felt very very very honored when I got that call. You said he spent three years on it. Of the songs that made the movie, how many songs didn't make the movie? I think

we wrote maybe 10 songs. And of those 10, I think there were seven that made it. So when you take all that time working on the movie, what does that mean? What is working on what does working on Wish look like? What does that look like for?

It's a pretty, intense schedule. You are there every week. You're in the rooms doing like looking at the vision boards, seeing the scripts, things are changing. Then we're writing the songs. That takes time. Then the story changes so the songs have to change. And then you write the song, you present the song, then they have edits, so then you have to make the edits. And you're doing that for you know, a really long time. Then you write the songs, but then they're not done, because then you have to go and be a part of all of the instrumentation parts of it and all the orchestral parts of it. So then you're doing all of that, and then you're in the boardrooms and you're watching

a movie. Yeah, it's a really long process. And I think I had done maybe a couple sessions in the interim of all of that, but it is so time-consuming that it's, It's hard to do both. Would you write another movie? Yes. For sure. Would you write a musical? Yes, absolutely.

I always say that I have maybe like four or five good years left in me doing the hustle. How long have you been saying you have four or five years left in you? Since like last year. I'm like, I can feel it. I can feel that there's going to come a time when I can't write every single day. and put this much pressure on myself to always be doing something and pushing myself

and, you know, like my nervous system is just like here all the time. And I know there's going to be a day when I wake up and I'm like, yeah, I think I'm good. I think I've done what I needed to do here. What do you do? And then you go write musicals? Exactly.

Got it, okay. And I can like really spend time on something and build it out and make it my baby, you know. I mean, your artist's career is a bit of, it's just an autobiographical musical. Yeah, pretty much. You write from such an honest place, do you ever feel like you're telling too much? No. No, because I've always been an open book.

I've always been a very vulnerable person. You know, if I wasn't saying it in my song, I would probably tell the same story to a stranger. that's just who I am. A lot of the first songs that in that first run are written in something of like a writer partnership and the songs that have come out that have been really successful are with new collaborations. Is that by design? It's not intentional.

It's just like I said, you know, there's certain artists where there's certain writers that make sense, you know, or certain projects where certain songwriters make sense. And so when I was coming up, you know, Justin and I made sense for those things. And then, you know, there's other artists where it's like, oh, me and this person make sense for this person. That's... I was going to refer to the idea of...

I'm not like cutting people out of my... No, no, no. I mean, some of it is just what it is. Like, I, you know, I, there's, there are certain writers that I'm like, yeah, they're one of my main co-writers, but it doesn't mean that they're my only co-writers. No, for sure. And it's okay, you know. Absolutely.

One thing that's been nice about, and interesting about this, the last few years is that a lot of the female artists really want to have at least a female writer in the room. It's so great. And when we were first coming, and that wasn't always the case. Yeah. And I don't, I don't subscribe to the idea that. men can't write a song for a woman to sing or women can't write a song for a man to sing. But it feels like a lot, you know, Sabrina, from when we first started writing to where she is now,

there were a lot of sessions where it was her and men in the room. And in the last few albums, there's always been a woman in the room. How did you get involved in the Sabrina camp? When did you meet Sabrina? and what's it like working with Sabrina? I got involved with Sabrina kind of around 2021, I think.

I was just kind of thinking about artists where I'm like, they're so, I was like, who's super talented but hasn't had their sort of moment yet? And I was just, I don't know, Sabrina kind of popped into my mind. I was like, why isn't she bigger? She has an amazing voice.

She can sing anything and everything. Her songs are really cool, but she just hasn't gotten there yet. And I remember reaching out to my manager and just being like, hey, is she writing? I would love to just be around if she's open to it. And that's kind of how it started. We did emails I Can't Send together. We wrote most of it in New York. And then when she was working on short and sweet, it became much more of a tighter crew.

It was me and Amy and Steph and Julie and Ian and John. And then Jack kind of came in towards the end. And it just was so fun. I really think it was one of my favorite. things I've ever been a part of just felt so cohesive and easy and you know she is so funny and witty and would just say things where you're like cool that's a song like that's so crazy what's an example of when Sabrina just says something we're like well that's a song like you know most of most of taste you know she she's she

You know, like, for example, the verse, the second verse of taste was like, come right on me. I mean, camaraderie, you know? We were like, that's hilarious. We have to put that in the song. It's like, it has to be there. Watching, you know, different artists at that age succeed over your career, what is it that moved the needle so far that made her a superstar and some of her peers that

are not superstars? What is she has? What is the it thing that Sabrina has? I think that her vision was so clear about who she was and how she wanted it to look and sound and be. And I think that she is, she's so driven, so passionate. She wants it so bad. And I think when you want it so bad and you have amazing songs and,

you have the right team and just everything aligns. Yeah, you being an artist who's still releasing music and maybe, you know, being involved in it, when you're around Sabrina and Tate, do you learn from them how they're doing it? Do you implement anything that they're doing and how you're releasing music? No, not really because I think that our goals are different. I love making music. I love it. I love putting music out. I love making music videos. I love doing all the visuals for it. But I'm not trying to sell out an arena tour. I'm not trying to do all of that stuff. If that happened, cool. But it's not, that's not my end goal. My goal is just,

to be able to make music that people dance to or sing to or cry to and hope that, you know, hope that they love it. What was writing bad chem like? What was writing bad chem like? I mean, it's fun, just so, so fun. I remember all of us just saying the dumbest things until we had a good song. And actually, I think we had done a version of Bedkem that was kind of, it was like, it was a bit weirder. The timing was a bit off. And I remember Ian and John being like, we can't,

we have to finish this the right way. Like they were having such, such bad, like, type A feelings about it because it was like we were starting on a different beat. And I think Amy had to leave that. day. And so Sabrina and I and John and Ian all sat there for a while and rewrote it until it was perfect. We had to like add two more beats into the course and all the stuff. And then I and yeah. Yes. Sorry. I'm like trying to remember that night and we were there quite late. I remember trying to make it perfect. What songs on that album just sort of fell out of nowhere

where it's like, you have the ability, I think, sometimes to write a song so quickly and then you have, you also are not afraid to edit. Yeah. But which songs came out of nowhere and just showed up where you're like,

I don't know how that song was written so fast? On that album, I would say, taste was pretty fast. Taste was pretty fast. Good Graces, I think, was pretty fast on that album. It started with me and Julian and Sabrina just being stupid and singing like, I don't give a fuck about you. I don't give a fuck about you.

And Julian, like, morphing it into the background and then all of us sort of finishing it together. What is, you know... Coincidence came pretty fast as well, I think. I think we started coincidence with that mm-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na. And then from there, we kind of made it this cute, like Paul Simony vibe. There was a, there was an article written during COVID,

I remembered where people were like, there will never be another superstar because there's just too much music, people are moving too fast between artists, you know. I don't believe that at all. They were saying like Olivia Rodriguez is probably the last of the ones that broke when this article is written. Yeah.

But if you were to say that one is I'm sure the authors of that feel pretty ridiculous right now. But I think, you know, what happens? happened to Sabrina and Tate happened seemingly very fast. Sabrina, we knew took forever, took like nine albums. Yeah. But the rise from like once people caught on, it just was wildfire. Maybe that's everybody.

I mean, Tate has been doing stuff for a long time too. Yeah, fair. Like you broke me first was like five years ago. That was a long time ago. And sonically so, so different. Yeah, so different. I think once she started diving into her dancing. For sure.

being a unique part of her artistry. That really changed everything for her. I think so as well. How did you get involved in Tate McCray? I met Tate when she was 17. We had done a session together with Ian, and we had done two days. And I thought we had such a good time,

and then I never heard from her again. And I was like, did I, like, do something wrong? I thought we had such good chemistry, I don't know. And I got a call. Good chem. Yeah, there you. And I got a call, was it last year? I think it was early last year?

Be like, Tate wants you to come in. And I was like, yes, please. And I remember not sleeping the night before because I was like, I just really want to do a good job. I just, I think she's so cool and I love her. And the first day we wrote together, they, Ryan and Tate had this idea. It was called Dear God.

And they're like, but we don't really know what we want, like how we want to do it, what the concept is. We just keep singing Dear God. And I was like, oh, what if it was like, dear God, like, take his kiss out of my brain. And they were like, oh, yeah, yeah, cool, cool. And I think, I think it was, for me, it was like a, it's like, oh, okay, cool. I can breathe now.

And then I think we, in one week, we wrote, we wrote, dear God, we did revolving door, and we did sports car. It was just like a week of, like, just magic. Is it hard for you to write hits? I don't, I don't really. think about it like that. I've never been one of those people that can call a quote unquote hit. I just know when something kind of feels good in my stomach, in my body. Like I'll get like a, like a little tingly feeling. I'm like, this is good. This is really good. I think this means something. But I've never been able to call a hit because a hit can be anything, especially these days.

You know, there's a song that comes out on this artist that doesn't sound anything like this artist that doesn't sound anything like this artist, but they're all hits. You've worked with some of my favorite producers over the last, you know, 10 years. And whether it's, you know, Stargate or it's Ian or it's Julian and John and Ryan Teter, what makes, and you can go through sort of that list, what makes Ryan Teter great? It's really funny because we hadn't worked together ever until last year. And we used to kind of make it like a running joke. And we're like, maybe we shouldn't.

Maybe we should just keep this going. And we're actually so good together in the studio. I think I really gravitate towards people that have really bright energies. You know, I think that's why I've always done well with Tranter, because I feel like I'm not naturally very outgoing. So it's nice having someone that is constantly moving. Because I think if that energy wasn't there, I'd be like a bit more of a recluse.

but his energy is just so magical in a room. He is, you know, if he's not producing, he's singing something. And even though there's like 16 different things going on, it's nice. I'd rather have more ideas than no ideas because then I'm like, oh, this is really cool. Or he plays a chord and it's like, oh, that's great, you know? I like that. I like that energy so much. John shares that too.

He does. Yes. A lot of ideas. I love working with John. Yeah. It's just, I really do. I gravitate towards those high energy, vibrant people. But Julian's like a guru.

He's like that. I mean, he's pretty vibrant, but he's like. But he's really fun and goofy in the room, you know. I guess in that way, Ian, I laugh harder around Ian. Yeah, he has like comedic relief, which is nice. You've also worked with some, you know, it's not. It's not just female artists that you've done really well with. You've also worked with Ed Shearin amongst other people at the very top, you know?

What's it like working with Ed Shearine? The last time I worked with Ed, the last time I worked with Ed, I think I was like 23. So it's been a long time. But I remember I was doing a lot with Benny. And Benny was like, hey, I'm going to be in with Ed. Would you want to join the session? And I was a huge fan of Ed. And I was like, oh my God, yes.

Like, I'd love to be there. And we did a session at his house in WeHo at the time. And I left and he was like, hey, he loved you. He's doing this camp in Malibu wants you to come. And I was like, okay. And this was kind of right off the back of the success of like the Selena and Justin and stuff. And so I show up.

I'm definitely the youngest person and the newest person. Everybody that he had come were people that he worked with a lot. They were like his core people. So I'm like, oh my gosh, this is so crazy. And I remember I was working with Foy Vance. They had kind of like separated all of us into groups. And they're like, all right, you're going to go work with Foy. And I was like sick.

And so I'm working with Foy. We're like out by like a pool house at this Malibu house. Ed comes over with a camera crew. And he's like, so like what do you guys have? And I don't know what happened to me, but I couldn't breathe. I was like, I'm going to go get some water and I ran into the house. Had a full panic attack. Benny like puts me in a room with him.

He like goes and grabs ice. He's holding my hands while I have ice in my hands. And he's trying to get me to breathe. I'm sobbing. He's like, all right, you know what? For the next three days, you're just going to stay with me. We're just going to be in this room together. Everything's okay.

You're going to be okay. And it was such a big brotherly moment and move. Like I will forever, ever be grateful to him in that moment because I was so terrified. And that day we wrote the course of dive. And I was like, I got to go. I'm like so overwhelmed. I have to leave. Came back the next day.

Ed was like, hey, I really like the song you guys started. Can we finish it today? And I was like, yeah, sure. I love that. So I think they even filmed it in the documentary. And I'm like, in the corner like this. All like huddled up. And we wrote that song.

And then right after we wrote that song, we wrote 2002, which happened to go to Anne Marie. And then I think our last day, we wrote a song all together, like the entire group wrote a song together called Parallel Lines that ended up going on Keith Urban record. But that was the only time I worked with Ed. One of the songs we didn't talk about because it landed in the middle of everything is Lose You to Love Me. Yeah. Which is a Billboard number one song.

Yeah. It's so massive, but it's exactly what you started off with. It's just like, everyone wants that up-tempo song, and you're like, okay, I'm going to write the opposite of that. Tell me about writing Lose You to Love Me. NMPA is our lead sponsor yet again. What is the National Music Publishers Association? What do publishers have to do with songwriters anyway? Well, unlike artists who can be unsigned artists,

there is no such thing as an unsigned writer. You can be a self-published, a co-publisher, a publisher, writer. Publishers only make money if songwriters make money. So NMPA goes and fights for you. They go to Congress, they go and support the community, they fight DSPs to get you paid more. That's what they do. They fight for you, and they fight for this podcast.

So thank you for fighting for songwriters NMPA. Thank you for fighting for us too. Okay, so I use Splice, and I'm pretty sure every producer who listens to this uses Splice, but if you don't, you need to start using Splice. They have the most incredible licensing library that you can go through for any kind of samples you can think of,

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Tell me about writing Luzzi to Love Me. So I was, I remember that day, it was Valentine's Day. I don't remember what year this was, but it was Valentine's Day. And I was leaving that day to catch a flight to go perform on Fallon the next day. And we had X amount of hours to write something. And it was me and Justin and Matt Man and Robin. And I remembered some artists that she was really into at the time. and she was coming a little bit later

and so we were like let's just you know try some little ideas and um you know I think her and I have always been very cosmically connected we always seem to be going through the same things at the same time like we're both engaged at the same time like just our your journeys have been yeah so very bizarrely the same

and I was going through a pretty rough breakup at the time as well. Well, not as well, but, and I just, I don't know, I remember Robin playing the chords on the piano and them just being so beautiful. And I remember just going like, to love love, yeah, to love love, yeah, to love, yeah, to love, yeah, to love, yeah. and us writing the chorus and then writing the verses or writing the first verse and her coming in and I remember her sitting down and hearing it and her like crying and then us writing the second verse together and finishing it together and then I had to leave I was like I have to go I literally have to go on the flight and as I'm in the car they're calling me and we're finishing

the bridge together trying to get the song done And I think from the time we had written it to the time it had come out, it was like maybe four or five months or something. It happened so quickly. Working with Selena from before revivals, the album before that, right, when you hit your first song together was, I think I was 19, she was 20. It was a song called Slowdown.

It was my first radio. So I've had pretty much every first with Selena. Like my first, my first radio number one. Yeah, just like, I don't know, so many. I had so many firsts. And so, yeah, Slow Down was my first song I ever heard on radio. It was crazy. And that was the first time we met.

Very first time we met. And I remember it was me and her and Lindy. And Lindy had known her for a really long time because Lindy had been doing a lot for Hollywood. records at the time and I worked a lot with Lindy and it was yeah basically the start of our journey I had done a song called nobody with this songwriter Shane Stevens and she had heard it she was like I really want to cut this song and went to the studio and that was the first time we had ever like really hung out she was like I feel like you must like know my life or be going through the same

things because this is exactly how I'm feeling and we changed that song up a little bit so it was even more her story and I had seen her at Westlake like a few months later and I was getting ready to leave to go to Sweden for the first time with Justin we're going to go do sessions there and she was like what are you doing next week come to Mexico I'm writing like my whole album there I'm finishing it like come and I was like okay I was like well do you mind if if my friend Justin comes to us so that we could just like go straight from there to there and she's like yeah bring him and so we finished revival in Mexico we get on a flight to Sweden that's when we write love myself for Haley

Steinfeld and then yeah come back it was just like whirlwind my whole life's a whirlwind It's crazy to think about because, you know, everything moves so fast these days. And I'm not, I don't really, I don't really get like nostalgic. I don't talk about these experiences much. Do you celebrate hits now? Yeah. What did you do when sports car went number one? What did I do?

I mean, I love a nice dinner. I'm not, I'm not super. I'm not like a super showy kind of a person, but... It's really hard for people to celebrate full stop. I think I celebrate more now. Really? Because it's more rare now, I think. Yeah.

Like, you have to celebrate the wins now. Yeah. Is it more rare because of the music industry? Yes. Or is it more rare because of, you know... I think it's because of the music industry. I feel like when we were coming up, an A&R or the head of the label heard a song and they were like, this is it. We're going to go with this.

It was so much. It was very clear. So much clearer. And I think post COVID, post TikTok, people are more scared to put money behind something if it's not reacting on social media. And it used to be labels and radio dictated what was going to be a quote-unquote hit song. Now it's TikTok and the people that dictate what's going to be a hit song. Is that better or worse for songwriters? I think it's worse for songwriters, to be honest.

I mean, it's great for, you know, if there's an album cut that's doing something and maybe the songwriter hasn't had this moment yet. Like, that's obviously amazing. But for us, so much of our money is made from radio. Still, you know, we don't, as songwriters, I mean, producers are different because they own masters and they get points and they get fees and all of these things that songwriters don't get.

Songwriters have to rely on radio. Streaming doesn't do anything. And now radio is making. so much less money because people don't listen to the radio, but it's still a much better payout than streaming for songwriters personally. When we were first coming up, we talked about it in Ryan's latest interview. It was something like 3.4 writers per number one song, and now it's 7.4 writers. Are producers songwriters?

Yeah. Yes. Our drum program are songwriters. I don't know if producers should be in the songwriting category, but the way that it works is now everybody gets a cut, which is totally fine. But I also feel like if producers are getting fees, why can't songwriters get fees? Why can't a songwriter have a point on a record? Like if they're going to have a percentage of songwriting, why can't songwriters also have the same? Yeah, I mean.

And you look difficult from a from a label if you're like, hey, be super great of we could have a fee. They're like, whoa, whoa. But you have no problem giving this producer, you know, 50 grand a song. Good to know. Yeah, I think it's fine on its face. If you're giving 50 grand for a work for hire for a producer who's, you know, you know, producing a song that was given to them and they didn't, they're not asking for any publishing. They're not pillaging that, you know, that, that's really clear. But it's standard now.

But now, now it seems like you have to fight a lot of people that if I write this song and then you produce it, you are not a songwriter, you are a producer. I know, I'm very thankful to the Miley Cyrus Flowers. I know. Situation because you can show, hey, record. of the year, these guys didn't get publishing. You know, like you, they were, they, but not everybody can do that. That has to come from the artist. It has to come from, it does, yeah.

You know, I was on a, we were working on some splits on a song yesterday and I offline with, because the artist manager hit me up to say, do you agree to these splits? I went and said, give me a second. I put a chain together of all the songwriters. We did at like a camp thing with the artist hosted the camp. Yeah. And I just said, I want all of us to agree on what we think the splits are and we're going to go together and say this is what we've decided to agree on. Yeah.

We happen to agree with the artist. It was all fair. Yeah. But the idea of even if it's even splits, it's important for the original writers to discuss before the artist manager or. producer manager sort of can pit you know like well julia agreed to it already it's like well that's fine but i don't agree to it now i look like the bad guy oh yeah or vice versa and it's like that's not fair versus like hey julia they're they're asking for x amount right that amount like but they weren't there like we can't do that i had and then you can go in you can go in as 80% saying yeah we're not

going to give that guy who added you know whatever instrument we're not giving them any publishing but if you're an individual only owns 20%, and it's much harder to do that. So I'm putting that out there that I think songwriters, that every single song that comes out, do not agree to splits to anybody but your co-writers. Yeah. I've had so many instances like this, and, you know, I'm not afraid to push back.

You know, at the end of the day, this is my livelihood as well. I've had producers call other songwriters and try to be like, oh, like where the producer has done something, but then they've had four of their producers that are signed to them be put on the song and then try to take from the songwriting itself and give to their producers. Where I'm like, no, no, no, no, I did my job. It's not my problem. You can't do your job on your own. So that's a you problem, actually.

That's not a me problem. Yeah. And I've had instances where an artist isn't in the room, but they want 20% of the song. And it's been situations where I've said no and the producers have swallowed it because they want the cut. And I'm like, well, that's fine for you because you're going to make those fees and those points. and, you know, all of those things that I'm not going to have. It makes more sense for you to swallow it than for me to swallow it. Yep.

But morally and out of principle, I'm like, that's not fair for you to do that. And if you want to do that, let's negotiate. Give me 2% of your merch or 2% of your touring where all these people are going to be singing these songs that we've been a part of. I see people walking around with the lyrics to songs that we've written. We can do that. We can. I'm so okay with doing it.

that but I don't think it's fair that you're not a part of it and then you take a part of it and then I don't get some and they can be like yeah but they're promoting the song it's like yeah but that song wouldn't exist if we didn't do that together do you know what I mean we as the songwriters as songwriters need to empower each other and not allow for I mean there's a bunch of these egregious things one thing that I always have about this just the worst is when you know they're four writers everyone is 25%. The artist comes in. They want 20%. So they're going to go to each writer and say, hey, it's only 5%. Right. But no, no, no, it's not. It's 20% of your 25% is 5% of the whole. Right. So it's this idea of when you're a young, a young writer, you will take that hit.

But if you can say no. Right. A lot of my friends have like Stockholm syndrome. They like, I think that they have to do it. It's like, no, you really don't. And if they want to be on it, then they can take 1% and put their name on it. You know, it's like you don't have to ask for 15.5. You don't have to do that. Yeah. You know?

And I feel like a lot of the time that doesn't come from the artist that comes from the label. Because, you know, they want their artists to have a part of the publishing and part of the song. Would you ever take an outside song as an artist? I I would but I feel like I'm so known for songwriting that it would seem a bit

bizarre unless you came in and unless you came in and were like you you were like this would be part of it is I recorded this song because I love it so much I did not write it I just love it

and as like a curator like you know that's a cool thing with some features I've I like haven't like they'll send me the song and maybe I'll rewrite the verse so it feels like a little bit more myself but you know sometimes like a feature will come in I'm like oh I love this song like I'm happy to to do that or for 50 Shades there was a song called heaven that Taylor Parks wrote yeah and I had rewritten like a little bit of it but for the most part it was it was a song she had written and the label sent it to me and was like would you be up for singing this

for the movie. I was like, yeah. Love the song. It's great song. One thing that I think is not discussed enough is how maybe cruel isn't the right word. How unfair the music community is to female songwriters. It's not the same as the hottest male writer, the hottest, like, whoever's just on fire is the hottest producer. there's something about, you know, you were saying advice you'd give to, you know, younger you would be, you know, mental health.

But it feels like the industry encourages overworking female writers in a different way than they do male writers. Yeah. That seems to be the perspective from, I'm not a female writer. Yeah. And I, but that feels like something that I remember the amount of people pulling towards. Yes. You and Amy, you know, Ilsey, like, you know, Taylor, whatever it is. There's like always this like intense amount of just overworking.

Is it the responsibility of the writer or the industry to recognize some of this? I think it's both. I think when you're first starting out, I know from my personal experience, when I signed to, I signed to like a small indie publisher when I was 18. And I was doing, I'm not even kidding, two, three sessions sometimes a day. and if I said no they made me feel really guilty and like my career was going to be over if I didn't say yes to every opportunity and that's when I started having really bad anxiety I started having and it was spawning sort of from like this pressure to perform this pressure to always be doing something great and it was really overwhelming and even when we were doing you know i think we had done you know

a salina session one one afternoon or a haley session one afternoon and then at night we had written sorry and then there was this sort of feeling of like oh we did a really great song at night. Do we need to be doing night sessions? And then it was like, then we were doing two, and it was just a lot. And I think when you're coming up, you think, you think like, oh, you have to do this because if you don't, it's all going to go away. And I'm much older now, so I have a lot more boundaries in the way that I write songs now. And I can, I can, I can tell you with 100% certainty that you do not need to be writing songs twice a day, three times a day to be effective. You not have to write every single day to be effective. I took the entire summer

off this year and it was the first time I've ever done that. And I think there was a part of me that thinks like, oh, if I leave, no one's going to want to write with me again. I'm going to be like irrelevant or something and I come back and my calendar's book September, October. I'm like, okay, like, cool, I can leave. I now know I can leave and nothing's going to change. And now I only work, you know, Monday through Friday. I take every weekend off. I only work from like one to seven, very regimented. And if we get something amazing, amazing. If we don't, we don't. And that's okay. we're not robots, we're humans. And some days it's going to be incredible. And some days it's not. And some days you're going to meet somebody in the studio for the first time. You guys are just going to

talk all day and you're going to get to know each other. And that's fine too. There's no, there's no playbook. There's no right way. There's no right way to write a song. There's no right way to have a schedule. You just have to find what works for you and you have to do your best to find balance. Because for me, I wouldn't take days. off. And then I would be doing sessions every single day. And then I'd have to take a week and a half off because I was so exhausted. So I'd end up having to take the time off that I would have taken off anyway. So I just don't even do that anymore. I can't do that anymore. Even if it's an artist that I love. And they're like, come work with me on a Saturday. I'm like, I love you. But it's not

going to happen. I'll see you next Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, or Friday. There's something about going home on Friday The reason why I dread Friday's on some level Is that I love working But by setting that boundary That means I can't wait to go back in the studio on Monday And there was If I look at

There was probably about a six-year period Where I was doing at least a session every day If not two a days Yeah And I had a lot of songs that did really well during that time. So I'm not mad that I spent the time, but I can't tell you what was when. Right. Like, it's such a blur. Right. And I vaguely remember, there are some of the same crew in the same studio writing songs every day. I couldn't tell you which day was what. Right. I mean, you can't.

No. I think, too, the fact that I had success doing the two a days and doing all of the, the rat race of the music industry then, and having success in my more regimented, more bound-ried place just shows that it doesn't matter how you work. You know, it's really up to you. How do you like running your record label? Yeah, why is it better than being signed? I just have full creative control now. I can put songs out whenever I want to.

I can make videos however I want to. there's no nobody telling me like oh you can't put the song out because this artist on our roster is putting out their song this day or having you know 85 opinions from people that are slightly out of touch

and certainly out of touch with you yeah like yeah I was that's the other thing they're if they're working with a lot of other artists definitely it's hard for them to be as in tune with you as you are. For sure. Honestly, inner monologue wouldn't have even happened. I had someone at the label

that had left and they just kind of didn't know what to do with me because I wasn't quite pop and I wasn't quite alternative. I was a little bit of an anomaly at the company. And had it not been for Simon Katz who came in an A&R at the time, that album would not have come out. Like what a time wouldn't have had a moment, nothing. So, so grateful for him. But then he left and then I was sort of floating around again. And I was like, I don't feel good about myself. No one here makes me feel good about myself.

No one here really makes me feel believed in. So then I don't really feel like I believe in myself. And luckily, you know, we left on really good terms. I still have a lot of love for Monty and Avery. They were wonderful to me. And they let me go, and I'm so grateful for that. And, yeah, once I got to leave, I started my own label. And I'm just, I'm so happy now.

It's so great. What's the lowest part of your career? The lowest part of my career. Oh, my goodness. I think it was probably that. I think trying to get people to believe. in you when you know you still have like so much left to give is really is really hard I think it brought back a lot of like childhood stuff too of like trying to get like a parent

to believe in you and like no but look I can do this was really tough for me I think and I I was really resentful because I was like, look, I am clearly able to have success with these artists, but you guys don't trust me to be able to have success as an artist. And that was, that was really hard for me. What's the highest part of your career? I think the highest part of my career is just making music. Being a part of a project that you know is great. So it's like a process.

There is no high, like writing, like one song, but like songs plural with people that, and you just know it feels good and that you just know the reaction's going to be out of here. That for me is a high. Like, Grammy's amazing. I'm so like, hell yeah. If I could win a Grammy one day, I would love that. I'm still, I'm still a bridesmaid when it comes to grand. I've been nominated, I don't know, six. six times, but I've never won one.

That would be so fucking cool. But I think like the biggest high I could get is writing a song. What's one studio moment that you can look at as being this is the perfect moment in a recording studio? Probably when I met Brittany, I would think. What was that like? We got to do like nine of the 12 songs on Glory together. And I didn't really know what to expect. And she was so funny and so lovely and so professional and would come in and would sing these amazing melodies.

And I remember being like, I remember hearing her on the mic for the first time and being just like a puddle. I'm not sure how I got from the couch to the floor, but it did happen. And I remember just like tears kind of involuntarily coming out of my eyes because I was like, this is my, this is my childhood. She was my first concert ever. The oops I did it again to our first concert ever. So to be in the room with her and like listen to her sing and be able to laugh with her and talk to her was for sure, like peak for me.

If we go back to our first interview and we're in 2017 or something like that, and you could look where you are right now, are you where you thought you'd be? No. Where did you think you'd be? I hoped that I would be here, but, you know, you never know. You come up with so many people. I mean, you know, you come up with so many people and, people come and go.

Like someone will have so much success. And then they just disappear and you're like, whoa, where'd they go? I hope that doesn't happen to me. And, you know, I'm just, I'm grateful that I've been able to hold on for so long and still be able to show up and and give it my all and, you know,

and still be asked back. That's the big one for me. I'm so grateful that I still get to be asked back because that doesn't always happen. But no, I don't know where I thought I'd be. I just, I think when I was doing it, I was just happy to be able to do what I loved. There are some demos that I have around that era that I still, like, I redo the songs because I believe in the songs. Even like, I never let songs go.

Yeah. If I believe the song is great. Yeah. When you sing a demo, it just like, it feels like, it feels like your, I would assume that you, I would assume that you. you have no songs that have not been cut. I recognize that that's not true. I recognize that probably not the case. Not the case.

I listen to my voice. I'm like, oh my God, there's a reason why there's so many on my hard drive. You're so funny. Do you, are there demos of yours that you still listen to over the years where like this song is a smash and nobody's ever cut it?

Yeah. Yeah. There are definitely songs that I listen to where I'm like, wow, I'm surprised this song didn't find a home. Do you still push those songs? No, I don't. Because they're very specific songs. It would take a specific artist, I think, to do them. And maybe the right artist just hasn't come around for that specific song.

I say that in sessions all the time. It's like, when they're like, who's looking? I'm like, the person who's cutting this song is in high school and it's never sung before. And no one in their family is. like you should do this for a living. Yes, they're living in Nebraska. And they're really cute small town with their family. They don't even know yet.

Is there a, is there a song where you like the demo more than the final? Yeah. But I'm not going to say which one. Oh, there's one in particular. But because I really love my job. And I'd like to keep it. That's funny. Is there anything wrong with playing?

demos that you've had other people cut songs? Do you feel like that's like there's this sacred line? Yeah, I don't typically do that. And I think it's because like once it belongs somewhere, it's no longer mine or no longer, you know, I just, I feel like it's like, no, you're going to, you've given it a home now. You're going to do what you need to and want to do with this song. like this is your baby, go for it.

Yeah, it's also, it's different. Like, if a producer plays the demo that the artist cut, that's different. If an artist plays the demo they got, that's different. It's a little bit different when you're a songwriter and you're like, no. It's very rare that I play demos of songs that I've been a part of. When you got to work on this last Benny, Selena album. Yeah. Does it feel like you're putting a bow on this career of you and Selena?

Or do you feel like there's more in there? No, I think we'll always be a part of each other's lives. Whether she wants to make an album, another album or not, or, you know. But I think we'll always be connected. And if she wants to write an album in five years or two years or 16 years, I'll always be there for her. Totally. I'm so indebted to her for so many reasons. It's pretty great that she's with Benny.

Like anybody who's been friends with either of those people over the years? It's funny because I've known them separately for so long. And when she told me, I was like, wow, this makes so much sense. This actually makes so much sense. You're both, like, very nervous. very warm, very funny, very just lovely human beings that just want to be loved. You've worked with, you know, you've in the last few years really worked with a lot of the people who are not just up and coming. They're not like the superstars, but one of the unlikely superstars

of the last few years who's been a guest on this who we love is Fred again. Yeah. You know? Like that's if you were to, you know, if there's a pool of people that were going to be superstars five years ago. I don't know who's putting the money in that. Not that he didn't have the talent. Yeah. But he just, you know, hadn't even, he was a producer who had this, you know. That was a really funny way that we ended up working together.

How did you guys end up working together? I, so I don't know if this is public knowledge about Ed, but Ed doesn't have a cell phone. He does everything through email. And so I got a. random email from Ed one day being like, hey, I have a really good friend. Hold on, let me back up. I was on tour and I had put out a song called Deep on Inner Monologue. And I was doing all of these sort of monologues of the lyrics and making videos out of them for content during tour. And he heard me speaking the lyrics on Instagram.

And Ed reached out to me and was like, hey, my friend took this recording of you and made a song out of it. Do you want to hear it? Like, are you okay with that? And I just kind of didn't think anything of it. I was on tour and I was busy. And I just like, I'm spacey sometimes and just kind of forgot about it. And he messaged me again.

He's like, hey, just putting this out there again. And I listened to it. I was like, well, this is so cool. And, yeah, I got connected to him via email and was like, wow, thank you so much for doing this. And, yeah, the song came out and it was, it did well. I was, like, surprised. I mean, the guy sells out, like, the Coliseum in L.A. now. Yeah.

Yeah, I think when I get an email from Ed Shearron at or at gmail.com, I heard that. It's so funny. Like, is this really you? This really? Well, thanks for doing this podcast. I'm sure that we'll be doing it many more times. I think maybe even since the last podcast is when we had the pink song come out. And I just, I think of that session fondly because I was playing guitar and you tap into something that.

is so honest in a way that I write really well by myself. You're supposed to collaborate with people who write a song that you wouldn't write by yourself. Absolutely. That's the point. That's the point. Yes. I think people forget that. That's why I love songwriting.

It's like there might be a melody that you would think of that I wouldn't or a lyric that you would think of that I wouldn't or beat that they would think of that I wouldn't. That's what makes it so amazing. Like if you have an ego in this session, then the session's doomed to fail. Amen. You know? Yeah, I mean, you can't, you can't explain that enough. Yeah, for sure. I'm very much the person that's like, oh, that idea is better than mine.

We're doing that. Yeah, there's a point where you have to be in a session and let it go and be of service to what's happening in the room. That's the point. And you do your best to be. you know, especially if there are 7.4 writers per song, then all you have to do is contribute less than 14.28% for you to be valuable. That's so true. But I do not, I'm very much like, cool, if you're feeling the vibe today, go for it.

Run and I'll fill in the blanks. Or if I'm feeling inspired, like, fill in the blanks. That's the point. That's why we do this. Yeah. I just I don't know that there aren't there aren't like 10 people that you just root for 100% totally and like an honest love than when you when you have success it just feels so good and I mean I think I think we all as songwriters have moments of you know like you were saying you take a break and you're like will they still like me will they whatever For sure. You know, but it's just like there's certain people that you just feel forever, like, just this forever, like what we, like, love for.

And I'm just couldn't be more. I'm so happy you're engaged and have like, so much of your life in, you know, in a really, you know, really positive place. Thank you. I mean, you were around for the start of my whole. whole career. And I mean, you even saw me go through breakups and so much. I mean, you've seen my whole life change. So, you know, I'm, I'm so grateful to have so many incredible people in my life that have been a part of my journey.

So thank you. There you go. We hope you enjoyed this episode. It was produced by me and Joe London in association with Mega House Music Group. If you like this episode, go give us a rating at wherever you listen to your podcast. And make sure to follow us at And The Writer is on all your socials. We'll see you next week.