And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 226: Olivia Dean | The Art of Loving (and Finding Yourself)

Episode Date: October 27, 2025

Today's guest is an international soul sensation...From writing “The Hardest Part” on Zoom to conquering imposter syndrome, crafting hits like "Dive" and "Man I Need," and creating her acclaimed album The Art of Loving.. She is on a meteoric rise in music.We discuss raw stories of heartbreak, growth, the magic of songwriting.. and how she learned to protect her voice in a room and write music that actually feels like her.And The Writer Is...Olivia Dean!Whether you're a songwriter, fan, or music lover, this episode is packed with inspiration, laughs, and behind-the-scenes gems.Presented by NMPA..The National Music Publisher's Association. Championing songwriters everywhere.Thank you to our sponsors!Co-presented by Splice.The best music sample library in music.CHAPTERS:00:00 – Welcome to the Soul01:50 – “I Still Feel So British”03:00 – First Trip to L.A. (With No GPS or Plan)04:00 – Learning to Trust Her Own Taste07:40 – When Artists Had Time to Be Bad08:30 – Making Meaningful Music in a Chart World09:20 – “I Don’t Write Every Day”13:35 – Disney, West Side Story, and Other Early Teachers15:50 – The First Song: “Mean Boy”17:05 – Parents Who Said Yes17:20 – The BRIT School Plan20:05 – Busking, Best Friends, and the Birth of a Band22:15 – The First Show: 70 Tickets, 10 People on Stage23:40 – Signing Her First Deal25:00 – The Studio Explosion (Her Worst Song Story)27:00 – Surviving the Rooms29:15 – How the Best Songs Are Written30:45 – The Yellow Van Tour (COVID-Era Reinvention)31:30 – “OK Love You Bye” — The First Song That Felt Free34:00 – From 70 Fans to 100 Million Streams36:00 – It Takes a Village (and a Lot of Gratitude)39:00 – “The Hardest Part” — The Song She Hated (That Changed Everything)40:00 – The Take That Hurts Is the Take That Wins43:20 – NMPA Ad Read44:05 – Splice Ad Read47:45 – Crying on the Studio Floor48:00 – “Dive” — When the World Started Singing Back51:40 – Being a Woman Who Writes (and Plays)53:10 – The Anatomy of a Song56:25 – “I Don’t Write Lies”57:35 – “The Art of Loving” — How the Album Was Born1:00:15 – What Love Actually Taught Her1:01:35 – Making Time for Love Anyway1:02:55 – Ross’s Mirror Moment1:04:30 – Learning to Sit in Silence1:05:45 – The Weight of Words1:06:30 – Being HeardAnd The Writer Is...Hosted by Ross GolanProduced by Joe London and Jad Saad Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I think I had a lot of imposter syndrome. I'm really good at going into any room now and being like, Hello, I'm Olivia. One of the hottest new names in music. The one of the only Olivia Dina. I've written a lot of terrible music. Really bad. There are a lot of songs you have to write to get to that song.

That's what makes it sound special. The deeper you go and the sort of more you scare yourself, those are the things that resonate the most. I remember I came in the studio that day and I just laid on the floor. And I just sort of cried and I was like, I'm so heartbroken. Who is it about? I can't tell you that. Come on, please.

Tell me about making this album. Oh my God, I have to make a second album. How did I even make the first one? Whoa. Can I? Who am I? How would you advise a young female artist? I think the best songs come from like four hours of amazing conversation and tea and like

talking about our lives. And then the song gets written in like an hour. So if we can't have a song. that we have nothing. This season is presented by NMPA, the National Music Publishers Association. Champions of songwriters and publishers everyone. Welcome to And The Writer is, I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's international music sensations redefining modern soul.

She leads this generation of UK superstars with effortless vulnerability. Her warmth, wit, and emotional bite, hasn't just garnered Brits, but worldwide respect. All the way from London, this artist is a songwriter first. And the writer is Olivia Doo. Feels quite crazy for you to call me like an international sort of artist. That feels crazy. Why does it feel crazy?

Because I feel so British and I just feel like I'm sort of newly being received here. And it's like kind of crazy to hear that. Like that intro was kind of fab. Thank you. Hey, you're welcome. I mean, how do you keep your sense of Britishness in this? It's hard to get rid of it. The more time I spend out here, the more British I feel.

Why's that? I think just the accent, it sort of comes out. I'm almost like a caricature of myself, I feel. It gets stronger. It gets stronger, yes, it gets stronger. Do you think you could live in the US? Maybe New York. I feel like I'm still figuring out L.A.

Yeah. I like people. I like city and like density and like stuff going on all the time. So I think L.A. maybe I'd find a bit isolating. It's cool here though. I like the sunshine. But yeah, I'm more of a New York person, I think.

Yeah, I mean, New York's the best city in the world. No offense to anywhere else. Sorry, no offense, L.A. But I think the thing about L.A. is like, you know, you can step outside here and it's silent. And you're in a major city. But I find that kind of creepy. And I love to walk. I love walking.

And I feel like the first time I came to L.A. to do sessions out here. I had no like credit on my phone. I didn't saw it out my data. And I would like leave a session and be like, I guess I'll just walk. And it was just like me and like a few random people on the street. And I was like, I don't think I'm supposed to be out here. I don't think I'm supposed to be out here. When was that?

I think I came to L.A. for the first time in 2022. Okay. So maybe three years ago, yeah. What was it like in 2020? for you to be walking the streets here? Very surreal. I think being from London, L.A. felt like a place where it's like, wow, you know?

Like really serious professionals work there. And I was very overwhelmed. And I think I had a lot of imposter syndrome. Like I would be in rooms and be like, how did I manage to get here? They don't know. Oh my God. You know?

Is the imposter syndrome better or worse now? I think it's better now. I feel way more confident in my writing and like what I do. I think it's really easy to step into spaces sometimes and then feel like you should be doing what everyone else is doing. But what I think's good about my writing is the Britishness and my authenticness. So I'm less likely to kind of mold myself to a room now. I kind of would love the like room to kind of mold around me if that makes sense. Yeah, I mean, that takes a lot of confidence and direction.

Also, that's probably why, you know, when you're in a room with an artist who doesn't know what they want to sound like and you have to drive the ship as a writer. Quite tough. It's tough because you're just trying to write what you think a hit is from your perspective. Yeah, and then I think I found the first time I would come and write out here, I just would leave and listen to the music and be like, wow, this is really vague. I don't really hear myself in this. I just hear kind of sound and words, but I don't hear me.

And I'm only really interested in hearing, like, without sounding narcissistic. But do you know what I mean? Like myself in the music. You know, it's weird because knowing your music now, it feels like you have that sort of direction or it sounds like you. Are there songs of yours that have come out where you feel that they don't represent who you are? I'm like an intense perfectionist so I feel like I'm always like I would never put a song out unless I absolutely loved it like I have quite a high like barometer of like stuff that comes out I've written a lot of terrible music really bad I think maybe there's like I have like maybe one song I'm not going to say this song because then people try it sort of guess but I have one song where like the day it came out I cried yeah Really? Yeah.

Because I was just like, I think I'm better than this. But that was good because it showed me like how far to go in terms of like, you know, sometimes you have to do something to know, okay, that's really not me. I really want to go the other way. Yeah. So it was necessary, but yeah. Do you think your audience, have they listened to that music differently? Like, does it stream about the same as the rest?

Yeah, I don't think anyone would ever know. I just think for me particularly, I was just like, there's not enough feeling in it. And I don't think every song needs to be this deep, meaningful thing. I think some songs are really amazing that they're light and they're fun and they're playful, but there has to be an element of in it for me that is like come from somewhere. Yeah. And that one, I think it didn't mean anything.

When you perform it now, do you feel, does it feel like, or when you hear it now, whichever version of it so you don't have to give any hints away. You were going to be like, which one is it? Exactly. No, but I mean, you know, do you feel like that's cool because it marks a moment of, you know, transition or does it, you know, how does that feel listening to that song now? I really like performing it now. I think it's just for me, representative of like a real chapter of learning.

So I don't regret it. It was just, yeah, it was a different kind of process for me that one. There was an era when you could develop as an artist and no one would know who you are. Yes. Because you'd record a, I don't know, a CD or a tape. And the only people heard it were the people had it. Yeah. But if it wasn't great, it didn't go like viral.

That's not really how that worked then. So now it's weird because you develop yourself in front of everybody. You start releasing stuff from the outset and it's like all of it's there. And also pressure to. get it right so quickly. Like, I was reading something the other day and it was like the BGs put out like eight albums before they had a hit, you know? Or like anybody was really conscious of like, oh my God, the BGs.

And it's like, I feel like now it's like you need to get on the ground running. Yeah. Fleetwood Mac, I think Rumors was, I want to say this might be wrong, but I think it's their 11th album. No way. Something like that. Which is crazy. It wasn't like it was a hit either.

I think that's the other thing. It's like what a hit is long term is. is not necessarily what a hit is now. We know songs that hit number one that aren't remembered. And we know songs that were number 30 that still the test of time. Yeah, or people are still wanting to cover or come and see you play live. And like that isn't necessarily the song that like charts or whatever. Like I don't really feel like I've ever felt the need to be in the charts in that way.

Like I think you can still make like really meaningful music that connects to people and makes people want to come to the show. without it being like a smash. But you kind of have that now. Like I'm not kind of like you have like smashes and it's like doesn't it feel different? It does feel different but I can only describe it. It's like I didn't sit in the studio. I never sit at the piano. I'm like I'm gonna make a smash.

Like it's never that for me. So it's like the way it's gone recently I'm like, wow, okay. Cool. guys. Do you feel, have you been recording a lot since? Like, have you been recording a lot in real time? Do you have any time to do that? You know, I'm not somebody that writes all the time. Mm-hmm. I think I'm somebody that's like, I'm going to live and then I'm going to write about it. No. And I only write, or I only write good things when I'm like compelled to do so. It's never like, well, what am I going to say today? Like those songs never. How many songs do you write for an album?

It depends. This one was done over, I guess, a short period of time. I guess you have your whole life to make the first one. I don't know. Maybe like 40, 50. Oh, so it's quite a bit. Oh, yeah. Yeah, a lot of duds.

You think they're duds or you think they're waiting for their time? No, they're duds. I think sometimes I have an idea for a song or like a concept and I'll have to write like 10 bad versions of it to get to the 11th version. that is actually the concept crystallized, if that makes sense. Like, there are a lot of songs you have to write to get to that song. Do you reuse titles for all these?

Never. It's weird. I was a, this is a weird name drop, I'm going to just do it. I was in a session where Cia said, we're in a room with there's like Stargate and Benny and these people. And Cia says something like, oh, cool. She's looking at her phone or whatever. I don't know.

She's talking about it. She's like, oh, my song, I'm making this up. Like, tornado is coming out. And to the producers, we're like, oh, that's great. It's cool. She goes, no, no, not that one. And then the other one's like, oh, that's great. And it's like, no, no, not that one.

She just rewrites her thing until she gets it right. Okay. This is her concept. And she's like, I'm just going to keep writing it. And she's curious. Like, it doesn't matter that she's gone there. And she doesn't mind is diving, you know, diving into it. Yeah, I think that.

sometimes there's like a pressure in like, I guess, the session world where it's like, you need to kind of get it on that day. But it's sometimes it takes a really long time to write one song. Like, didn't Leonard Cohen write Hallelujah for like years? Yeah. I think there's something so romantic in that, you know? That song in particular is crazy because, you know, it's the original, his version's uptempo. It's got 14 verses.

And then do you know the story of that song? Kind of. It's like Jeff Buckley was... I love Jeff Buckley. He was house sitting and heard the live version of Leonard Cohen playing Hally, which is much slower. Grabbs a guitar while house sitting does his like cover of the cover of the fast version with fewer verses. And basically, you know, makes you think like right now everyone has all. of the songs available on their phone.

But there was a time where it was being, whatever vinyl's there or whatever CD's there, that's what you get. And you're sitting there, house sitting. You're like, I'm going to put on this one thing, which then triggers this thing of like, I'm going to play. Crazy. Anyway, let's go tell your story

a little bit. Okay. Because, you know. Sorry, Jeff Buckley, back to me. Jeff Buckley, who? Yeah. No, sorry. We love Jeff Buckley. Yeah. We do love Jeff Buckley. Very talented. Very. But brilliant. I mean, just, just. Okay. You were born.

I was born. Cool. Yes. You had parents. I did, too. So tell me, where are you born? I was born in London. I don't know if you can tell.

Yep. To two parents. A mother and a father. Yep. And I grew up in East London, not really in a particularly, like, musical household in the sense that, like, my parents didn't play instruments. or kind of have any creative background whatsoever.

But they had a real love for music, I feel, like a real fascination and a very eclectic music taste. Like, I just remember feeling like they just liked a good song. It wasn't like my dad likes rock and my mom likes this. It was like we were listening to everything on car journeys in the kitchen. And I just always remember just being fascinated by music. musical theater especially like that's where I kind of really got like a love for it I love the drama I love the orchestration I love the romance of it um and yeah I started singing when I was eight years

old so musical theater was it that your family would listen to musical theater soundtracks or you're going to musical theater no that was kind of more my own personal thing what did you discover first um west side story oh yeah I mean whoa right Right. Still now, like, if I listen to that soundtrack, like, it moves me to tears. Like, if I listen to Maria, I get goosebumps. Like, listening to that vinyl at home on the weekend for me is, like, very just, like, a reset. I loved, like, Disney, I guess, when I was like, A, like, Pocahontas for me, run it back.

Run it back. Colors of the wind. I'd sit there and sing that, yeah. And, yeah, I was just very shy as a child. So I think musical theater allowed me to, explore music and storytelling and like storytelling through song which I think is a real skill and like performance in that way but without having to tell my own story which felt scary I was just like I don't talk about myself ill so British like don't look at me but look at me

yeah don't look at me while I'm on stage yeah stop looking at me guys um so I think that was like a really safe space for me and then when I was like 15 16 I picked up a guitar and I started learning piano. And then it was more like covering Carol King and Amy and like just sitting and just I would sit for hours and just do covers, but like not filming them just for myself, just looking up the chords and like,

okay, now I can play this one. Okay, now I can play this one. And not really even performing them anywhere just for my own like pleasure. And then I started writing my own songs around year 16. What's the first time you wrote? I wrote a song called New Boy How does it go?

Oh my God Oh my God, there's a guitar behind you Don't even Okay, fine That will never happen No, it was a song called What is that? No

That's okay There's a guitar by No, there's so many guitars in here And I will never pick them up Okay It was a song about like We're just starting A girl at school had like

Got a boyfriend And I'd never had a boyfriend And I was like She doesn't want to hang out with me No boy Yeah, like I was kind of angry. New boy, got you new boy. Yeah.

Did you play that song for anybody? No, never. That was just like the first song I remember thinking, this has got something. What was the thing? It was kind of cool. Like it was on like electric guitar and like I just remember thinking, wow, maybe I should pursue this.

I mean, it's weird just finishing your first song and you realize, oh, I should write another one. Yeah. At what point do you say, hey, mom, dad, I have a skill? I don't think I ever say. I think they overhear, you know, they overhear me in my bedroom. And I remember my mom being like, because I went to a sports and technology college, like, where I grew up. And neither of those things were really speaking to me.

Why were you there? That was just a local school. There was like one school in the area. You go to the primary school, then the secondary school and then, you know. And she was like, there's this school called the Brits school. Maybe you should go. And I was like, okay. You know, she showed me the website.

And she was like, you could study music or musical theater. And I was like, wow. Oh, my God. You know, this is crazy. I mean, it's super supportive. Yeah, very supportive. Like, they were never like. Aren't parents who aren't in music supposed to say?

No, you're not doing that. Well, I think that. What did your parents do? My mom's a civil servant. So she works. in law. She's like a child lawyer. And my dad sort of had lots of different jobs, but he's very like got a technical mind, like, works with computers a lot. And it's just like very clever, very clever people. And, but in my family, so my auntie's son saying that in a confusing way,

was like an actor and like a musician and a rapper. And so like like, yeah. Have you seen Top Boy? No. You know about So Solid Crew? Yeah. He's in So Solid Crew. He's in So Solid That's cool. Yeah. So it was like I'd seen like it was kind of possible. Yeah, the attainability is really helpful. Yeah. So I think my mom was like, well, it can be a job and you can be successful in it.

And I think maybe that. You can't understate how significant that is. Yeah. For a family to be like, oh, no, of course you can. Like my great cousin's stepbrother was. Yeah, it's possible. It's happening over there. Yeah.

Yeah. It's interesting to think maybe if that hadn't been the case, they might have been like, No, you're going to be a doctor. But I sort of don't think so. I think that they really recognize like a real love for me in it. And I think that can only be encouraged. The Brits school is super famous, but explain to our viewers what some of the people who have been at the Brits school and maybe some of your peers and stuff. Yeah, I mean, Adele.

Amy went there for a bit. Loli Young, Ray, King Cruel. Orange County. You went to a school with some of those people too. Yeah, Ray and Lola we were there at the same time. Are you guys on a text chain? Not the three of us, but yeah, I know them both. Yeah, which is crazy.

Ray was in the year above me and I think Lola was in the year below. So you get into the school. How much of musical theater was pulling you versus the other part? So I originally was on the musical theater course and I wanted to apply for the music. course, but I knew that I wouldn't get in. Why? Because I had written all these songs and like, was experiencing songwriting and a love for being like an artist,

but only privately, like, in terms of writing like a personal statement or like an application, I had nothing to show for it. Like, I'd never done a gig. I'd never, like, you know, performed my own songs or even shared them with anyone. So I was just like, this is kind of a lame application, you know? But what I did have was experience in musical theatre and I was, like, this is my plan. I'm going to go in like a spy through the musical theater course. I'm going to do that for two years. I'm going to make friends with all the people on the music

course. I'm going to make sure the teachers know who I am. And then I'm going to apply to change two years in. And how they do it at Brit is if you want to change course, you have to audition. And if you don't get in, you leave the school. Wow. You know, because it's like, no, you can't go back. You're saying that you're dedicated to this. How dedicated are you? Wow. Yeah. What did you audition to get into the school initially? What did I do? Gosh, I can't remember now.

I guess I would have just sung a musical theater song, maybe Pocahontas. But it wasn't Pocahontas. I can't remember. I think we just sort of, it's a written application, and then you go in and you sing a couple songs. I can't really remember. Did you perform? Before you did the switch over to the music said, did you perform at all while you were there?

what shows were you. In musical theater shows. My gosh. I have such a bad memory. Like, I'm such a present person, which I think is such a skill. But it's like my past doesn't exist. Yeah.

It's like, you're asking me that. And I'm like, um. No, it's a real thing because when you're writing a song, I know they're the people who can recall every lyric and it's brilliant and it's awesome. I don't know how you do it.

It's so cool. But if you don't remember anything, you also never repeat anything because you just walk in, you're like, it's just, you know, you're like, every day is a new day. It's like Dory from. Exactly. That's me. Yeah.

That is me. So wait, so you then auditioned to get into. I then auditioned to get into music and I'm busking in London. I'm sort of on the streets with my guitar case open, just singing sort of like all my covers that I've been practicing. And I'm getting my songs together. And then, yeah, I audition for the music strand and I get in. And then it's like, oh, I'm in now. I'm a musician.

Forget the musical theater. Well, don't forget. We're grateful, but I'm doing this now. Yeah. And that kind of changed my life. The teachers were amazing. I was introduced to so much amazing music. I met like my best friends there.

I met Finn and Dan who's still playing my band now there. Like we've been friends and been playing together for 10 years now. Amazing. Which is crazy. Like there's videos of me and Dan like busking on the street and it's like 10 years later and we're like going to play 602s together like it's crazy It's mental Six oh twos together? Yeah It's crazy

What was the first show you saw at the O2? The first show I short the O2 You know I actually think it was rudimental Oh yeah so my manager when we met Hey girl Was um a day-to-day manager for Rudimental at the time. Yeah.

And she gave the school tickets. Is that right? To see Rudimental in exchange for being able to come to a show at the school. And I guess, like, look at who was at the school. So then I went to the O2. I remember sitting up in the gods and being like, wow, the O2. And then, yeah. Did you sit in those seats and think I want to be on that stage or just like, this is just amazing?

I don't even think I was thinking that at that point. Like, I don't even know if I'd done my own. like proper gig yet. So to think about playing an arena was like it didn't even cross my mind at that point. When's the first proper gig? Um, is it servant jazz quarters? Yeah. 2017 capacities maybe like 70 tickets and I was like wow. I'm a store. I was like damn I made it. I mean, so many tickets for one human. Yeah. It's not nothing.

And the stage was maybe like, it was so small and I had like 10 people on there. Like it was like we were all crammed in and we were watching videos of it the other day and it's crazy to see. Oh, is our videos like on? No, they're not online, but I have some footage. But it's funny because I was listening to the songs and I was like, gosh, it's kind of the same vibe. I wouldn't say like the style of music changed that much. It's just, I guess, honed. I was like, wow, I've really just been true to that.

Like what I was playing then is kind of the vibe of what I'm playing now. The step from that to, you know, you're playing for 70 people. How do you get sort of to the next level to getting discovered, if you will? I mean, great question. How do you get to the next? level. I think I just then became really dedicated to like, I think I signed a publishing deal when I was like, sorry, I'm just looking to her for all my answers. How old was I? So you have to get into a studio after that. Are you, were you recording before that show?

No, I don't think I was recording. And then it was like, first time you get to a studio. First time I get to the studio. Oh my God. I haven't really thought about any of this in such a long time. I think maybe it was with Felix and Felix's studio. I don't remember. Yeah, it was like, okay, now I was introduced to the world of sessions, which obviously I had no clue what that was. I'd only just sat at home.

And it was like, yeah, you're going to go to this stranger's house. He's never met. And you're going to just write a song together. And I was like, okay. Loll. Sure. You know, you just turn up. Hello.

I'm Olivia. You know. And they're just like, and I'm like, whoa, whoa. And I did this session with this guy. I don't remember who he was, so it's fine. And he was like, okay, what do you want to do today? And I was like, I guess write a song. And he was like, well, what I like to do, how I like to start songs.

It's like, I like to look at the top 40 and then just pick one and then sing my own melodies over that. And I was obviously like, is that how you write songs in the professional world? Okay. And so we did that for a bit and there was like a lot of auto tune involved. And then at one point, I was just like, I need to go home. I feel really just this is not the right vibe. And he was like, don't worry, I'll send you the bounce.

And I was like, okay. I left and I was like, maybe it was great. I was like, maybe that was great. I'll wait for the bounce and I'll see. Get the bounce. It starts with an explosion. And then he's like panned the sound of high heels from left to right ear. Like me walking into the.

the room. And then it's just like my voice over this horrible music, sounding so, like, sad and tired. And I remember I said it to my manager and she just replied like the poo emojis, like pooh, pooh, pooh, pooh. That's wild. What was the song called? I have no idea. How many times do you listen to that song here? I've listened to it twice. I can't, I can't listen back to stuff from that time. It's like so cringy. I feel like that should be a ringtone. Oh my God. But like, I really like, I've got my. I've got my. chops like I have been to some random studios I've worked with some random people is that you know how how is without baiting an answer being a young female walking into a

room with often men that are much older yep what is that like it's crazy and especially when you're like 17 18 and you're still figuring out who you are and like what it is that you want to say. And sometimes you end up in these rooms and it's like everybody's really telling you what you are or what is the way to write a song. And you feel so like, but I remember when I was at home it felt so good. Why does this feel so icky, you know? But, you know, I don't regret any of that time because I learned so much about myself and I'm really good at going into any room now and being like, hello, I'm Olivia. Yeah.

Like, I'm able to just get off to, like on the right start now. Like if I'm in a session or I'm in the studio and allow myself to be in control rather than just being passive and being like kind of told what to do. I think that was really essential for me, like growing up. How would you advise a young female artist who's just now getting into their first rooms? I think get really good at saying, no, I don't like that. I don't like it, you know, or get really good at saying, can we try something else? Like, I would do these sessions where it was like, I would spend the whole day thinking,

I really don't like this idea or this really doesn't feel like me, but not having the courage to just be like, can we stop something else? Can we just start something else? And then it's like the days wasted and you just sat there feeling like small. Yeah, so I think just get really good at saying, no, I don't like that. You've really, you know, a lot of your collaborators are sort of like the, you know, to me it's the, it's a lot of people I've worked with in the UK, they're like part of the UK writing scene. It seems like you fell into the safe place of it. Yeah.

I just think ultimately I'm only interested in working with nice people. You could be the hottest shit. Sorry, I don't know if I can swear. You can swear. Okay. You could be making the hottest, you know, whatever. Shit. Yeah.

But if I think you're a prick or I don't enjoy your company, I've got no interest in being in the studio with you. I think the best songs... Have you ever left a session just like... All the time. Yeah. Loz of times. I'm so ill. Sorry, you've got to go. Because it's like, I think the best thing,

I think the best songs, for me personally, come from like four hours of amazing conversation and tea and chat and like talking about our lives. And then the song gets written in like an hour. So if we can't have that, we have nothing for me personally. You really start to get your stride. It seems like right when COVID. I know.

Annoying. I mean, it's crazy. Like a lot of people, either that's when you either blew up or you disappeared. It was like one of it, like it was a, that's the turning point for most people. What was it about getting from, you know, you're starting to get into sessions. You graduate, presumably. Yes.

And, you know, you know, probably feeling like you have some momentum and then hitting that wall. It was really hard. It was like a mixture of a weird time because it was like, yeah, COVID. So that was like the first summer I'd been booked for like festivals. and touring and like the live part for me is the best bit. So I was so heartbroken. I was like, what? I'm supposed to be playing festivals, like a real artist.

And that was taken away. And then I think that was kind of around the time that like TikTok started to be a thing, which is crazy to think about because when I put out my first song, it didn't even exist. And so there was a bit of like, you need to like do slowed up and sped down versions. I said that wrong.

But do you know what I mean? It's stupid. So, like, there was all that going on. And I was like, God, I really don't want to do that. That feels weird. Yeah. But we got a van and we painted it yellow. And then we just drove around the UK and just opened the doors and played for people.

And that was, like, I guess, my alternative to festivals, the festival season. When you release, OK, Love You Bye, what were your expectations? No, expectations. That song, wow, that song I made the first day I met Olly Basten, who was like, who produced my first EP and it just kind of fell out that song. It was so fun to make. And the studio we made it in was like this kind of like converted pub in East London. And I just remember thinking, this is so fun.

And I, and I was like really into Paul Simon and Graceland at the time. And I kind of felt that influence on it. And I feel like that was the first song that I made. that I felt like free and not like it needs to be this like pop thing. Like it felt so me that song. What gave you the confidence that that session? You know, why is that session the one where you switched that mindset up? Because there just, there was no pressure.

It just felt fun. Like I really connected with Ollie and I think he like wasn't heavy handed in the way that some people can be in the studio. Like, I think he just wanted me to just flourish and was just there to support that and hold me and say, what do you think? Like, it was one of the first people I'd worked with that was like, well, what do you like?

What do you think the piano sound should be like, you know? What do you, like, how would you like the drums to feel? Do you want to play piano, you know? Because I could play, and it was like, yeah, I would love to play that little line. And it just felt fun. they didn't feel like work you know yeah it's impossible to go back yeah and once you have that feeling you're like oh my god I can feel like this all the time but also that's the professional

co-writer versus the sort of like race to the middle writers you know the ones who kind of recognize it no this is about like experimentation and trying some stuff yeah it's okay if you fail but it's okay Let's just all like, go ahead. Yeah, play whatever you want. Just like grab that instrument. Yeah. And we weren't like referencing anything that was like popular at the time. Like it was like we're referencing just things that we both love.

Like our common ground in the room rather than thinking about an external person who's not in the room and like what they would like. It was just purely like what would we like to make. Did you release it on your own? No. I was signed to a label called AMF Records. Okay. And then that EB came out under that. And AMF was like in, I think it was virgin at the time.

But then it became EMI. Yeah. How did they find you? This is before Joe. This is, yeah. This is pre-Joe. How did they find me? I don't really remember how they found me.

I just remember Emily, my manager. She's like pointing me. Great manager. Yeah, I guess I had done my public. and then I just remember we all went for lunch. And it was me, Emily, Mike, and Jordan. And they were like, we think you're great. Like, we want to sign you.

And I was like, a record deal as well? Oh my God. Yeah. And I was like, yes, I'm in. Whatever it is. Yeah, sure. Have me. It's weird.

Because you can do that deal and that can either, you know, that moment's a sort of, that's also a turning point. Did you feel like. at that point that you had made it? 100%. I was like, wow, like, I'm on a label. Like, there's going to be people that are going to, like, help and, like, invest in me. Wow, I'm worth it.

Yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean, like, they put their money where their mouth is at that moment, and you end up going in and recording the EP, you know? Yeah. So, you know, the follow-up to that, obviously that, that song, comes out, you know, and that EP's got, you know, 100 plus million streams. Which is crazy.

So it's like to go from, you know, the playing for 70 people and then trying to explain that here's twice the population of the United Kingdom listening to this music. Did you ever have it get to your head? I don't think so. I feel like I try really hard and think all the time about not becoming a prick. that would just be horrible. Because you know a lot of those people. I've met some, yeah.

And it's just like, oh, no, it got to you. That's just, yeah. I feel like most of pricks I know are people where they didn't get there. Do you think? I do. I think most people who get there, wherever there may be, wherever there is. Yeah, wherever their version of there is.

You know, many of the people who are, they tend to be more grateful. and have an acknowledgement of luck and chance. Yeah. You know, it's not to say, like, sure, they had the skill. A lot of people have skill. A hundred percent. A lot of people work really, really hard.

And I think it's really important to recognize that, like, yes, you've worked on your skill or your craft or whatever, but all the people around you that had to believe in it and be there to make it happen as well. Like, it takes a village of people to make an album or, you know, do like a campaign or just anything. A lot of people that people don't see as well, you know? The second, uh, EP comes out like right now.

Wow, great research. You know what? Shout out Jen. Hi, Jen. Wow, this is fun. I feel like I'm doing a trip down memory lane. That's good, right? Yeah, it's great.

I hope that that's the kind of thing that, you know, if there's, uh, you know, as I always say, like I, I don't know what this podcast is. worth to people, but I do know that it shows, it kind of started with this idea that my mom used to say, I just remember her telling somebody that I was a struggling musician. And I said to my mom, I said, no, I'm just a musician. I'm just a musician. We stay struggling. Yeah.

But we stay struggling. And I think some of it is like when you hear this journey, that part of that memory lane is this like even the struggle of being massively successful. Even the struggle of like following up things of of of dealing with switching labels. It's all a struggle. It's a struggle the whole the whole time. So, you know, this idea of doing a second EP and having it land like with a worldwide pandemic is not exactly like it's pretty ill-timed. It was ill-timed.

I remember it was like we were trying to get the hardest. part finished. And also, I hated that song. I was like, this can never come out. I was like, this is cringe. Yeah, yeah. I had to really come around to that song. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

What? Yeah, I didn't like it. I wrote it and I was like, this isn't good. And then my manager was like, it's really good. I was like, fine, I'll finish it. You know?

And then it was like... Does that happen a lot? He does happen a lot, yeah. I feel like often with like, it's like I'm almost scared of the song. Like I kind of enjoy the ones that are more like low key. Like the ones that feel scary to me, I'm like, this isn't good. Or I'm unable to tell like what it is.

Yeah. It's crazy. But yeah, I recorded the vocals for the hardest part in my living room and I did it on like Zoom with an engineer. So it was like they'd like sent the mic to those vocals at you. Yeah, they sent the mic to my house and then I just kind of was like doing it on like audio movers with the guy on Zoom. Zoom. Yeah. And then I was mixing it like in my flat and like I was alone in COVID and I was just like this is trash but they're saying it's good and then it came out and I loved it.

Yeah. When did you start recording your own vocals? I've always kind of messed around on like logic and garage band and I really enjoy comping like quite enjoy that as a process quite fun. I can really enjoy that. Do you still comp all your vocals? I like to sit there. I like to sit with someone and like go through every single take and like really labor over what we're doing. And it's often not like super comp, but and I really like to record all the way through, like front to back the whole song every time. I don't really like to do it in sections. But yeah, the performance is really important to me of the vocal, like the feeling in the vocal.

The only other women I know that comp their vocals, and by the way, I shouldn't say women, maybe artists in general, but Ariana and Megan Traynor. It's so fun. It's like can determine so much of like how a lyric lands or like the tone or like how hard you sing one word and the next. Like there's so much power in the comp. I find it fun. Yeah, but you also have to have this skill to one recognize what's good or not. And a lot of times somebody thinks that what they sing sounds good, so that's good enough.

Or they, you know, we probably get from theater in some way is how important that delivery of a certain word is. I think that's often more important than like the note or like, I don't know. Like I kind of like sometimes if like maybe the note's a bit janky, but it made you feel something because you're like, oh, maybe her voice cracked there because she was sad and like that's more important to me than like it being pitch. Perfect. Well, like, who, who or what is the real hardest part for you back then? What do you mean? Like, what the song is, you know, it's like it becomes like a heartbreak anthem. So, who is it about?

I can't tell you that. Come on, please. I mean you can. No, I must protect people's privacy. Fair. It's already intense enough to have dated me and then me to make all, like, all this music about it. Like, I must at least protect your privacy. Has, well, I mean, you, we know of other artists who've used real names and even phone numbers and stuff in the past.

I would never do that. I think that. Do you think that affects your personal life? Do you think people like, you know, do they, you know, do they want a song? Run away from me. Do they? No. Do you think.

I don't think so. I think I'm a catch. I think you're a catch, too. I think it's nice to have songs written about you, no? Of course. That, like, you've inspired somebody so much that they want to, like, make a whole album about you. I think it's really beautiful. Yeah.

Or intense. Depends how you look at it. Have you ever played an album or did you play that song for that person? NMPA is our lead sponsor yet again. What is the National Music Publishers Association? What do publishers have to do as songwriters anyway? Well, unlike artists who can be unsigned artists, there is no such thing as an unsigned writer. You can be a self-published, a co-publisher, a published writer.

Publishers only make money if songwriters make money. So NMPA goes and fights for you. They go to Congress. They go and support the community. They fight DSPs to get you paid more. That's what they do. They fight for you and they fight for this podcast. So thank you for fighting for songwriters NMPA.

Thank you for fighting for us too. Okay, so I use splice. And I'm pretty sure every producer who listens to this uses Splice. But if you don't, you need to see. start using Splice. They have the most incredible licensing library that you can go through for any kind of samples you can think of. But they take care of their original creators. In fact, they just came out with a beta version of their AI suite. Unlike its competitors that we know that may not take care of the original creators, every time you use Splice as AI tool, it triggers

a licensing event for those original creators. So there's not a better company that I can think of right now that you can use, where you can use the efficiency of AI and also know that you're taking care of the creators. And that is Splice. Have you ever played an album or did you play that song for that person? No, never. I'm really intense like that. It will be like the song will be stuff that I've never said to you and like never will. And like I'll just put it out. But they have to know, no? I'm sure they do, but we never talk about it. Like I don't play stuff for people ever, like before it comes out. Like, I only sent my mom the album that I just put out, like, a couple weeks before he came

out. Was she so proud? She loved it. Yeah, she loved it. But, like, yeah, like, sometimes I wouldn't even send my manager songs. And she's like, well, I have to hear them because I need to help you get them out. And it's like, fine. Fine.

I mean, it's such a vulnerable process. us, but the more vulnerable you get, it seems like the more the audience comes with you. Yeah, that's the catch. The deeper you go and the sort of more you like scare yourself, those are the things that resonate the most. Like every time when I've been like, that song's too much or like, wow, that one makes me cry or like, wow, I cried when I made that in the studio. Like, they're always the ones that like last or people can hear that.

What's the most vulnerable song you've ever written? A couple come to mind. I have a song called Slowly on my second EP. That is one of the most, the songs I'm most proud of writing. Like, that felt just like I was ripping out a piece of my heart at the time. Loud on this album, I think, is a really vulnerable piece of music. You know, it's just like single vocal, one take, front to back,

strings and a guitar and it's like just basically talking about how somebody didn't want to fall in love with you sad embarrassing you know when you wrote those songs was it is it weird to have a collaborator around do they help you with lyrics too um it wasn't weird because the people that i wrote them with i was am and was extremely comfortable with i don't think those songs could have been written day one on a session with somebody I just met. Like they were born out of like years of collaboration. Like Max and Bastion who I write a lot with and are amazing just musicians and people. Like we've been writing together.

Yeah, since I was 17. Yeah, crazy. So when we get in the room, it's like there's so much context on each other. You know, not just my life, but like their lives and like where we all meet and what I would say or wouldn't say and chords I love. I love and chords that just wouldn't work. And yeah, I remember I came in the studio that day and I just laid on the floor and I just sort of cried and I was like, I'm so heartbroken.

And then we wrote that song, yeah, in a day. Messy is, that's a good album. Thank you. Hey, good job. Thank you. That was a really good. That was a good one. You liked that?

I like that one. dive like set a new level for you you know just as notoriety it's sort of like that's the first time where i feel like it really cross over here interesting why do you now feel that i just not i'm not really aware of like that but yeah i guess that was the one that kind of went well it's a it's sort of it's the virality of it You know and also like when you think about timing-wise like you were saying TikTok didn't even start really when it wasn't a thing when you first did your first EP And the second one was probably right at like the like the beginning of people really using it Yeah it was called like musically or something yeah right so what at what point are you like oh shit this is this is this is like you know at what point is it has it left the station really oh this might be bigger than other stuff I've done It's hard to tell

I'm not really somebody who's like looking at stuff online like that like for me it was like I remember we would just be playing shows and people would really sing along to that one like that was like the first time it was like people would sing along to every word of the song rather than like the chorus

or like the end or like they're just listening and enjoying but like I remember thinking how they're singing along to all the words wow all the words. It's weird when you go to a city that you've never been to before and they seem to already know you.

It's crazy. It's crazy. It's like, guys, I've never been here or I'm so far from home. Like, when we just played in Australia in February and people were singing along, I was like, guys, I'm really far. Like, this is crazy. Yeah. It's not really made for humans to have the communication with hundreds of millions of people.

Like you're maybe built a. talk to 200 people, not 200 million people. It's really hard to like compute, like when you see like how much a song's like streamed or something. Like it's really hard to understand like actually how many. In a bad way or neither. I don't really know if it's good or bad. I think my brain doesn't really work in that way, like with numbers.

Like a million people is a lot of people. Like if your song gets listened to a million times, that's loads. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I mean, you know, man, I need like getting $4 million a day. Really? Uh-huh.

Something like that. God, you own your stats. I'm a smart guy. I can retain information I read it not that long ago. I mean, I look at charts just like because I've got songs that, you know, we either publisher that I write around. So you just like are constantly checking when you see certain songs that are just like, that's been sitting here for a while.

And that's a lot of streams per day. You know, you just start noticing it. But going back to dive, like shout out to Tresia. Shout out. Wow, yeah, Trey. He's great. Yeah. He's been here before.

Like him. Matt Hales is great too. Amazing. Were you familiar with his artistry before? Very much so. I was a big fan. I loved everything he'd done with Leanne. And she was like a really important artist for me.

Like growing up, like seeing somebody that looked like me, but was playing the guitar in the UK was really important. And I always just remember looking at the credits and seeing that they'd just done everything together, those two, and thinking, wow, I'd love to have that. Or like, I'd love to work with Matt. And I just thought his writing was fantastic. Yeah.

One of the things that the music industry does, that I despise is this. there's just not a real understanding of how female artists that I know have it seemingly harder. And they also, the pop stars I know and love, almost all of them write. And the men I know that are pop stars, almost all of them take outside songs and then say they write. Really? You know? Interesting.

But I know a lot of, you know, you're playing instruments, you're singing, you've earned it, you've gone through this, you've learned how to write, you've been writing for a long time. I feel like people look at you differently than other artists because you have this, because you play instruments and because people see that you write. They see like this struggle that it takes to play. and it's like it just gives it this authenticity that I think other women don't necessarily if they don't play an instrument they might not they might not get that kind of respect that I think that they deserve you know in your case when you walk into a room I mean again these writers are really professional and I think now your reputation precedes you a bit but even in that messy stage when you're showing up

Do you feel like you have to educate your co-writers ever when you show up in a room? You know, it's really important for me whenever I get into the studio with somebody new or kind of less so now. I'm more kind of work with the people that I'm comfortable with. It's really important for me to sit at the piano straight away if there is one or a keyboard. And any song that I've ever written, I need to know what the chords are. And so I'll have a piece of paper in front of me. And if we're working out the chords, I'm like, okay, what are they?

And I'm playing them as we're writing the song. I'd like to have a complete understanding of the structure of the song. Okay, now what are we going to do for the chords for the bridge? And like, that allows you to kind of feel at the helm in a way. And other people are playing as well. And sure, you can jump on the piano too, but like, I'm here at the root of it. And we're not going to record anything until we've written it most of the time. I'd never really start with production.

It's always like we're starting a song. in the room together and then we can think about how we want to produce it. I like to work that way. Where do you get your lyrical inspiration? Do you come in with a title, a concept? Do you just sort of start singing something? Just start singing something really. Sometimes I'll come in with like more of a feeling.

Like I'll have to write a sad song today. Like sometimes I come and be like, I'm feeling sad, so we will be writing a sad song today. Like, I can't write something up tempo if I feel sad or vice versa. So it's mostly feeling led. And like, I'll have little lyrical ideas, you know, in my notes and things. But again, it's about reading the room. Like, sometimes I'm like, I'm really precious about this idea.

And I'm not sure about you yet. So today I won't say that one. Or, like, I really think that that would be great with this part. like they would understand that lyric, you know? Like, I've often found like, I really enjoy weird lyrics. Like, you know, there's no reason why the word cutlery should be and nice to each other. Like, that's ridiculous. But I knew that Matt would understand that, you know?

Or like... That's what makes it sound special. Yeah, like I know I'm able to read the room and understand what I think other people would understand. So, yeah, I think songwriting is really about it. Songwriting is really about just reading people, you know, outside, like to get the inspiration, but also like in the room when you're working. And from movies, TV, books, things of that. What do you mean?

Do you get inspired by those? Not really. It's more people in real life. Like, I've never made up, like, a situation for a song or a lyric. That's interesting. Yeah. Are they all autobiographical? Yeah.

Absolutely. Like, I've had times before where, like, the song's been good, but I know it's made up, so I'm like, I don't want to sing it. I have to change that lyric to make it real. Why? Because it doesn't do anything for me. Like, I have to go up and sing it for the rest of my life. And it's like, I don't want to sing lies.

Yeah, but they don't have to be lies. I mean, there's an era of writing where, you know, you know, Eleanor Rigby is not about something that, you know, Paul McCartney's feeling. Yeah, that's great for Paul, but it's not my vibe, you know? Yeah, it would be, it's like, it's sort of what makes the writing songs for others fun sometimes because then you can go and be that for a day. Do you write songs for other people? Never have done.

Why? You're such a skill. You're so good at it. And maybe in the future, but I just, um, It just, again, it feels so personal to me. It's such a therapeutic exercise for me. And yeah, I don't know. I'd like to in the future.

It'd be interesting to kind of let go of some of the preciousness I clearly have. But no, it hasn't happened yet. The art of loving is fantastic and it's becoming even more and more successful. over time. You know, I mean, it generally just came out. Like a couple weeks ago. And it's like, it's out of this world. It's just like, it's, it's so insane.

In the making, tell me about the approach to making this album. It was quite a journey. I think I definitely fell into that, oh my God, I have to make a second album. How did I even make the first one? Whoa, I have to do it again. Can I? Who am I? And I had written a few songs that I liked, like nice to each other, and I'd come out here and

I'd written Easy with Amy and John and I liked it. Then I kind of got lost. There was a whole middle chunk where I was like, I don't know what the hell I'm doing. I'm making bad stuff. it was really bad or it was like or what you thought it wasn't doing anything for me i had no desire to release it or like work on it and then i really honed in on the title what does it come from i went to an exhibition here in l a before a session um called all about love which was in response to bell hooks his book all about love which i'd like devoured and loved and was so inspired by and

And then I was like, ooh, it would be interesting for me to make an album in response to the book and the exhibition and do like a case study almost on love. Whoa, quite fun. I could learn about myself. I could document the last, you know, two years of my life, basically. And I could heal and close the chapter. And wouldn't that be fun? And then once I had that, I was like, okay, great.

I'm going to go back to London. I'm going to work with the people I've been loving working with. We're going to rent a house for eight weeks. I'm going to bring in my piano from my house. And we're going to do eight weeks solid. I'm going to sleep there. And at the end of the eight weeks, whatever I wrote, that was the album. No more.

No more writing. I mean, that's the dream scenario. What did you learn about love in the making of the art of loving? Well, love is really scary. and can make you feel really powerless sometimes, but I think making this album made me realize that I'm so full of it and I have so much to give and it exists everywhere outside of romantic love,

like all around you. And I think we put so much pressure on romantic love. And a lot of the music is about romantic love for sure, but I think by the end, and I would say the chronology of the album is, kind of as it happened, I've just felt such a love for my friends and the women in my life and my family. And I'm thankful for all the, you know, the heartbreak

and the stuff that happened, because it allowed me to make this music. But it's a skill, love. It's not like a fantasy, mystical thing that, you know, just happens to you if you're lucky. No, it's real. You have to manifest it and cultivate it and keep looking at it and keep working at it.

Are you good at love? I think so. Yeah. Are you better at love now since you made the album? I think so, yeah. I think I'm talking about it all the time. So I have to hold myself accountable to be good at it. Sure.

And, yeah, I think I just, I've been through a lot of different types of love and being loved and the absence of love. Do you have love now? Yeah, so much love. Do you have time? To love? Yeah. Of course. I love every day.

What do you mean? I don't know. Like, you know, you said most of the... Sure. Yeah, of course. There's always time. I think, um... You're traveling all over the world.

You're doing shows all the time. You make the time. Yeah. I mean, it makes all the stuff that even, you know, it makes it all worthwhile. Like, it's, you know, for me, if I can, I make sure I'm home for dinner. I'm a sure to take my kids to school. I'm not doing that. No, I get that.

But, like, for me, that's like, that keeps the rest of it. It makes all this way more fun if I focus my life around the love part. It's taken a long time to get to, all right, I have to make sure, like, keep the priorities straight. Do you think you're good at love? I think I am I think I'm good at prioritizing love I think I sometimes have to work at I always say I'm a recovering narcissist

Interesting You know So I think there's like learning That my That self is really not that You know It's not that interesting Honestly

This podcast changed a lot for me Because we did this like we've done 200-something episodes and when you start a podcast everyone starts a podcast this thing's old now it's like nine years old right and when you start it you're like I'm gonna have this gonna be a conversation

with two friends we're just gonna be chilling and then you hear back those first episodes you're like ah I couldn't care less about what I said show off yeah and he's just it was it was a giant magnifying glass on like what my eagle

sounds like. Interesting. Now it's visual or moved on. It's a whole other thing. I couldn't recommend enough. People should record themselves for an hour and listen back. You don't have to do it for however many, you know. But you'll learn a lot.

You will learn a lot. How you communicate, what's important to you. You know, what questions do you ask? Do you listen? And the opposite of talking, when I grew up, the opposite of talking was waiting. That's real. Just me now. Yeah.

It's like it's a room full of like that. It's like who's next? Wow. I love that self-awareness in you though. That like that takes quite a lot. It's a bizarre thing. Like having all these conversations, you're doing interviews all the time.

What have you learned about yourself from doing interviews? Sometimes I ramble on too much. I've had to learn that sometimes just answer the question and then be still. because in that gap after the question is where you end up saying stuff that you didn't mean to say. Yeah. Sometimes sit in the silence. Sometimes don't feel the gaps. I think I'm quite like, I don't know if a people please is the right way to put it, but like I like people to feel comfortable.

So if I were to feel like an awkward tension, like I would just fill it and like throw myself under the bus rather than just like letting it be uncomfortable, you know. I try to bring this into songwriting. that it's more interesting if you have a weird cadence then it is to do this is how I'm going to say every single sentence here that's not really that interesting

we've heard that space is interesting space and weird space and the way I've learned to communicate from this podcast and from having conversations and now I'm on some boards and I'm involved with so many different organizations. So how I speak and what I say has a different weight now. And it changes how in a session, how even if you want to talk about love,

the choices in when you say certain things, giving the listener an opportunity to hear every line to hear the word cutlery. It's one thing to have the word and use it in a song. It's another to write it in a song in a way, that the audience can hear that unique word. It's punctuated, yes. Yeah. Framing words, framing sentences, framing titles.

That stuff matters. It matters in how you phrase questions in an interview. It matters how you write a song. Also, you know, how about we can hear what I'm saying? It really irritates me when it's like you can't hear what people are saying. That's my pet peeve. That's me in my soapbox for a second there. What do you mean?

Why write the lyrics if I can't hear what you're saying? you might as well just make noise do you know what I mean I get it's like a style thing maybe for people but like I'm always like turn my voice up in the mix I want people to hear what I wrote I love what I wrote and that's the whole point

also I'm going to enunciate I do not talk like this at home yeah I want you to hear what I'm saying in this song yeah there's no question that there's a lot of what what I'm probably I'm much late

or speaker when I'm at home, you know, and whatever. So when you pick out singles for an album like this one, the order of how you're telling the story, you were saying that, you know, how you wrote the album is, is in some chronological way of dealing with how you've learned about love. But the way you release songs isn't necessarily chronological. Well, although actually in some ways it is chronological, just not back. to back to back to back. But why is nice to each other the first single?

I think it was the first song that I wrote for this album that I love. It felt like a good entry point. I loved that the first lyric is here we are back again. I'd love that as an idea for a first single for an album and the first track on an album, essentially apart from the intro. And I think that it just has a lightness that song. it's both flirty and fun, but like I think really meaningful

and showcased a different side of me, I think, from the messy stuff. And I just knew it. I just knew it was the one. I had no doubt about that being the first single and the first track on the album whatsoever. A lot of people pick their first single, but it's not necessarily what their audience thinks is the first single.

And then, but somehow like, you know you're not somehow, Now, straight up, you just know your audience. Why do you know your audience so well? Because I just think, I like to think of my audience or people that listen to my music as just like being the same as me. Like, I think that they would just like the things that I like and appreciate the songs that I appreciate, you know?

Like, I don't, sometimes I feel like people think of the audience is like not knowing as much as them or like, they're not going to get this. And it's like, of course they will. Like think about the way that you consume music. Like treat your audience as if they're extremely intelligent, which they are. And yeah, I just thought that would be a cool one to start with. I didn't really doubt that it would be understood. Man I need is crazy successful because it's crazy good.

Why am I not a writer on it? Where were you? I invited you. Why was I not? Where were you? When will I be added as a writer? You can do a remix. You can be a little show.

Tell me about how you wrote, man, I need. We did a week in the studio in the house. It was me, Zach and Tobias. And I came in that day, and there was a lot of energy in the room. We'd all never worked together before, and it was all just a bit, like, crazy. And I knew that we were going to make something fun. And I was like, guys, let's make something really fun. I want to make something I can dance to.

I want to make something that when I perform live, it's just going to. to be like a tang fastic, like just woo. And I think we started with the drumbeat. And I was like, yeah, I want to do something kind of like Michael, the way you make me feel esk. And I sat at the whirly and I went, dang, bang, bang. And then we kind of just like wrote it. And then by the end of the week we had like three ideas.

And that one, I just, I remember driving to him from the studio. at the weekend and I just played it again and again and again and again and again and again. And I was like, okay, well, if I can listen to this again and again, I think other people might want to. Tobias was the first person to win a songwriter the year for the Grammys. What is it that Tobias does that's special? He is the most energetic and like, I've never worked with somebody in the way in the way in which he works. He just has so many ideas and he's always on his feet in the room.

Like he's always sort of standing and like giving so much energy. And I think that kind of pushed me to give it back. And we have it on film like the moment we were kind of writing that the kind of the hook part. And it's like we're going back and forth and he's like punctuating the rhythm. And I'm like, what about this? And like it was just so exciting. He's so exciting to work with. Nothing passive about him.

Can I have that video? Yeah, sure. Cool. Posted. Got it. The success of that song, again, it's hard to understand. Except when you think that it's the population of London every single day, streaming it. That's crazy.

Really? I mean, yeah, probably. Everybody in London. We don't know that. But essentially, it could be. What's the population of London? Okay, so every two days. So half of London.

Wow. Lull? Have you made it? Do you feel like you've made it? What does that mean, though? I don't know. What's your there? Well, as I said earlier,

I don't think I've ever been like, like ambitious in terms of, like, the charts isn't really like, my marker of like success. I feel like weird stuff goes into the charts all the time. I don't think it means it's good. You know, I don't think that's a marker of like, a song being good or not.

I think there's like a lot of factors, but I think made it for me would be like headlining Glastonbury or like, I don't know, playing the Sydney Opera House or something. Or maybe playing the O2 for six nights. Or playing the O2 six times. I mean, you're getting, you know, you're getting compared a lot to Adele because of the success of her. I hope she doesn't mind. I keep thinking, oh, gosh, she must be like, God, her.

They keep comparing me to her. I hope you don't mind, Adele. I'm sorry. If you look right there, right over the hill right there. Wow. I'm sorry, babe. Sorry. Do you guys have a relationship?

I never met her. No. I've covered many of her songs. She's very nice. I bet she is. I've only met her a couple times, but she's very nice. I bet she is. Probably wouldn't even remember meeting me,

but I remember meeting her because she's nice. The, you know, I think that one of the annoying things, again, about the way the music industry sort of talks about women in the music business so they compare each other

versus being like, you guys all have a place at the table. And I'd actually None of, even if, you know, Ray from last year, Ray next year when she releases her album and you, you know, and Adele and Amy and all these like, you know, successful women in the UK, you guys all sound like have your own place. I think so too.

Do you like or dislike when people talk about, you know, naturally ask you comparisons? I just find them kind of boring. It's like, as you said, people love to, just in general with music, like, be able to say what it is. Like, they're like, it's like this or isn't it a bit like this? And it's like, I just find it kind of boring. Like, I find that if you're a female singer and you've come from the UK, like at some

point, somebody's going to be like, oh my God, I hear Amy Winehouse. And it's like, no one will ever be Amy Winehouse. There will never be another Amy Winehouse. Like, she is so individual and like one of one. And like, yes, it would be crazy to say I'm not inspired by her in the sense that she was like doing honest storytelling and like classic music and Motown inspired. But I'd like to think that I'm making different stuff and I'm not just doing it in Amy Winehouse impersonation. And as much as it's a flattering comparison because I am so inspired by her as an artist, I do think it's quite lazy. Not just in comparison to me, but in anyone, like when people say that Ray's like Amy or like, it's just like,

I think people also do that with when one direction in the wanted were out. I think people just don't know how to articulate people's music because they don't have the vocabulary so they use unless the muggles of the world don't really

and that feels like the muggles of the world. No, I understand it. I think it's hard for people to articulate the nuances in music. Because also it's like with the Amy thing, it's like, but she was pulling reference from people before. So it's like I'm not referencing Amy more so. I'm referencing Motown.

Do you understand what you mean? So I think that I find kind of, yeah, I don't know. I think anybody listens to the album also has feels like, oh, this is its own lane. And if they've been around long enough, they're able to say like, oh, that's cool. I mean, there's Diana Ross in it. Do you know what I mean? And there's like, it's not just, there's all kinds of amazing sort of, not even references. It's just like you are a human of that, of the earth that listens to other humans.

Yeah. If you were to have your, well, you probably don't know Mount Rushmore as maybe you do. We have this giant statue here that has four. With the big heads. Yeah. Who would be your, you know. My big heads. Yeah.

Who are your big heads? I didn't like my big inspirations. I don't know. Just like who would you, who are your favorite? musicians ever your four favorite musicians stevie wonder oh yeah ertha franklin carroll king her big head can go up there wow i'd love to see this and who'd i say stevie ertha carroll oh my god earth wind and fire i know that's a few heads but yeah that's a cool statue looking thing if you were to pick four artists that are current that people should know who would they be

Oh my gosh. That people should know. Like, what do you mean? Are they like people I think that people don't know? Yeah, that inspire you that aren't famous. Well, what's famous? Okay. Let's go another way.

I'm so annoying to. No, I like this. I'm just making up shit as I go, so why not make up? No, but I mean, like, you know, what are some artists that that inspire you that the rest of the world hasn't heard yet? This artist, I always look about her, Alice Phoebe Lou. I love her writing. I think she's incredible. Ooh.

Do they have to be like new or can they be like old? They could be whatever you want. I really, I'm enjoying listening to Julie London at the moment. Just old, old jazz vibes. That's my favorite thing to listen to. It's an amazing. She has some amazing, amazing records. So soothing, so much feeling and performance and drama.

Love Judy London. So good. I love that you just called that out. Yeah, fun. Do you listen to a lot of jazz? I do, yes. I would say that's what I listen to most at the moment. It allows my brain to switch off, I think,

because it's like so far from what I'm mostly hearing and making. Brazilian music, I love. Gal Costa, I think she's amazing. Drew a lot of inspiration from just her kind of vibe for this album. You like performing at jazz bars currently. Do I? I don't know, do you? I haven't done so recently,

but I'd like to do more of it. It's something I'm interested in. Are you going to do a jazz album? Maybe at some point in my life, I'm interested in the idea of standards. Like I was thinking about that as a concept the other day. Like, okay, so this is the conversation I was having. I feel like back in the day with, like, amazing songs,

like, for example, Crimea River. Someone writes it, and it's like, that's an amazing song. And then everybody has a go at it, you know? Or you'd be like, I'm gonna put it in this style. And like that was kind of normal. But like if I covered a, I don't know, what's an example of an artist. I mean just that sounds fine. No, but I mean like today, like if a song came out like recently, like if I covered a Tate

McCray song and then like did it in a salsa style, people would be like, why are you doing that? Like you can't, but I feel like there was a lot less like ego with songs back in the day. It's just like, that is a good song. And like, these are the standards we have and we're all going to sing them. Which I feel like is less of a thing now. Yeah, it's infuriating. Because, I mean, in reality, the value is the song. It's like, it's what drives all of it.

Yeah. And like, I just think, I'm always thinking about, you know, Carol King in that respect. Like her giving, you make me feel like a natural woman to Aretha. And it's like the selflessness to be like, we'll have my version and we'll have your version. and we'll share the songs, just with the love of the songs. You have credibility and the talent that if you chose to do that,

it would be a really cool standards album. It could be interesting. I think also it's the idea of, you know, it becomes in a way like a, it can also be like a mixtape. Like you could do like, I'm just decided to record. It wouldn't be a mixed tape.

No, I'm just saying like the version of like, I'm going to do five songs that are covers and there it's also, you know, Basanova. Yeah. of these five songs. And if you like it, cool, listen to it. Sure. And like, without it having to be serious.

Yeah. I'm quite interested in that, like doing some kind of standards. Are you going to write a musical? Yes. Have you written a musical? No, but I would like to in the future. It's definitely on the bucket list for me. I hope you do that.

You want to be involved? Yes. You into musicals? I have musicals currently. Oh. Yeah. Musicals? I do.

I have, well, the last. The last time I was in London was in February of 2020. We were doing, I have a show called The Wrong Man. We did a show in November, New York of 2019, and Tommy Kale directed Hamilton did it. And Alice Lackmore did the music. And Josh Henry was the lead. You're in musicals, so I need to speak to you. Yeah, yeah.

Okay. I love it because like the difference of writing, when you write long form and musicals and stuff, you can write that song that one I can write as many songs from a female perspective as I want I can write a song about a butcher-liking

loves of bread if I felt like that was a thing quite freeing yeah you can do what if you're especially if you're part of the book writing if you're part of the if you're adapting a play it's also like the

the scenes are kind of given to you in some way where that's the inspiration and your job is to move the story along through music you can dive into different worlds musically themes themes different kinds of vocalists I mean the best part of theater is that first of all being in a room with actors who have music in front of them is amazing um because the worst dancer in new york can cite read better than the best singer in LA. It's crazy. You know?

I mean, nobody who cite reads here, but you go there and nobody there is learning from a demo. All on the paper. They're all looking at paper. And,

you know, I'm not necessarily composing using that, but the orchestrators have been fortunate enough to work with, you know, and they'll often have

somebody else come in and even notate it, but to notate the work, it gives it a tangible thing. It's for a man And one thing they think songwriters don't get to see, they don't get to see the math. Hmm. That you can see when you see notes on paper.

When you say, oh, yeah, this actually doesn't, it doesn't look right because it isn't. Hmm. And if I just move, you know, can we actually lower this down to here? And then it would be correct. The structure of this is actually like the visual part of it. Hmm. I love looking at sheet music. It's gorgeous.

It's gorgeous. Yeah. And it really clarifies what you're writing. But it's a fascinating thing It's like I love the space I highly recommend it I think telling also writing albums To tell stories like it's a thing Like writing the wrong man for me

And having like a real every single lyric matter It's the best thing I've written And then the whole album has like A million a million streams I just think It's very easy to get caught up In all the stream stuff of it But as you just said

Like I don't think that's reflective of whether it's good or not. Totally. It's just reflective of how many times it's been played. It's like got nothing to do with the quality, I feel. Like I find stuff all the time, like on YouTube or like, I don't know, or whatever you listen to music on. And I'm like, oh my God, this has 2,000 streams.

And it's like the craziest shit I've ever heard in my life. And I'm like, wow, I feel lucky to have found this piece of music. So, yeah, I think that I just, I don't like. like looking at the numbers with the music. I don't like being told what song everybody else likes the most. I like being able to choose for myself. Well, I think you are writing music where all of the songs are good. Thank you.

And I am a critical listener. You would say if you didn't think so. I certainly wouldn't say that. I wouldn't say, I don't know if I didn't think so, but I certainly wouldn't say that I genuinely enjoy listening to what you're releasing. And it sounds honest. And it's the performances are real. And I'm so excited to see the arc that you are going to have.

I know you're just, you're just sort of starting. And you're already having the success because of who you are on the record. And I appreciate you doing this podcast. And I'm excited to be, you know, will this will be. this will be the first of many, I'm sure. And I hope you come back on and let us know the next thing you're working on because I'll come back on for my musical. Okay.

It's been really, it's really enjoyable to listen to what you're doing. And I appreciate your, I appreciate your art and, and you're, you're a good person. Oh, thank you. That's nice. Imagine, I don't appreciate your art. You're a bad person after meeting you. Goodbye. Goodbye.

And on that note, this has gone well. See ya! We hope you enjoyed this episode. It was produced by me and Joe London in association with Mega House Music Group. If you like this episode, go give us a rating at wherever you listen to your podcast. And make sure to follow us at And The Writer is on all your socials. We'll see you next week.