And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 228: Hit-Boy | Success, Betrayal, & The Stories Behind Hip-Hop’s Biggest Anthems

Episode Date: November 17, 2025

Today’s guest has rewired modern hip-hop. His fingerprints live all over the last decade but the real story behind that success is far more human, painful, and transformative than the headlines ever show. In this conversation, he opens up about the highs and lows of being a producer in hip-hop: the pressure, the politics, the contracts, the moments that nearly broke him, and the breakthroughs that almost didn’t happen. He also shares the lessons shaped by fatherhood, betrayal, and real perseverance — all while creating some of the most important and culture-defining music of our time. And The Writer Is... Hitboy! A special thank you to our sponsors... Our lead sponsor, NMPA aka the National Music Publisher's Association. Your support means the world to us!And @splice -- the best sample library on the market, period. Chapter list 0:00 TEASER 1:20 Ross’ Intro2:02 Fatherhood and Being a Full-Time Dad 5:12 Parenting, Hoops, and What His Son Really Loves 6:29 The Humbling Reality Check: Kids Don’t Care About Your Hits 7:29 Growing Up Between Pasadena & San Bernardino 8:34 Seeing His Uncle’s Success & Wanting to Be on TV 9:35 Falling in Love With Beat Programming 10:12 Learning to Write & Rap at 13 11:23 Selling His First Beat for $20 at 16 12:24 MySpace Era: The Birth of “Hit-Boy” 13:09 First Major Betrayal: Partner Gets Signed Behind His Back 15:01 Advice to His Younger Self: Patience & Self-Belief 15:23 Building Early Industry Relationships Through MySpace 16:13 First Time Inside a Real Studio (The Underdogs) 17:39 The Underworld of LA Sessions & A Young Hit-Boy Watching Greats 18:44 First Major Placement: Jennifer Lopez 19:06 Providing for His Mom With His First Checks 19:27 Growing Up Without a Present Father 20:22 His Dad’s Return & Going on a Run Together 22:04 How Fatherhood Changed His Time, Focus & Creativity 23:27 Recording Nas: The Hidden Role People Don’t See 24:57 Getting His First Publishing Deal (And the 18-Year Lock-In) 28:02 Staying Current: “I Update My Software Every Day” 28:21 First Big Hit: Drop The World Lil Wayne & Eminem 29:47 Why He Used to Clash With Kanye 32:00 The ‘N*****s in Paris’ Moment (Language Question + Setup) 33:35 First Song With Kanye: The Christmas Track 34:12 Making Music With Kanye, Jay-Z & the Good Music Family 35:40 Hearing 'Paris' for the First Time in the Planetarium 36:32 Realizing the Song Was Going to Be a Cultural Earthquake 38:23 Big Sean, Executive Production & Sharpening His Ear 39:09 How Drake Found the ‘Trophies’ Beat 39:52 Stripping Beats Down to Let Artists Shine 40:33 When to Stop Producing: The Minimalism Lesson 41:38 Depression, Contracts & Losing the Relationship With Drake 42:57 The Pain of ‘Trophies’ Not Making Drake’s Album 43:13 What His Publishing Deal Held Him Back From 44:22 Working From a Place of Fear vs. Freedom 45:01 Working With Beyoncé (Excellence at Every Level) 46:22 The Story of ‘THIQUE’: An 8-Year-Old Beat Comes Back to Life 46:39 Why Old Beats Deserve Second Lives 47:57 The Making of Sicko Mode & Travis Scott’s Explosion 48:20 The Greatest Timing Ever: Streaming, Social Media, Travis 49:00 The Long Journey of Sicko Mode (2016 → 2018) 50:13 Are Producers Songwriters? The Eternal Debate 51:30 Nipsey Hussle: Early Sessions & Mutual Respect 53:53 Nipsey Claims the Song: “I Need This for My Project” Hosted by Ross Golan Produced by Joe London and Jad Saad Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I used to be feeling ways about me and Kanye always clashing, but then I realized, like, he clashed with almost everybody. What's the best advice you'd give young producers navigating the industry today? You got to stay tapped in, you got to stay focused, you got to stay updating your software, man. Like, you cannot get stuck in the past and think that one thing is going to be one way forever. Like, I've seen a lot of people lose it all. When you got a lot of people around you, like, it creates confusion

and you don't see what's really right in front of you. I didn't even realize that I was in a, bad publishing deal until four years into it when I made a actual hit when I was looking for that big check. Oh, damn, so this is not what I thought it was. How does Drake hear the beach trophies? Damn, I was working kind of from a place of desperation for the last 18 years. I probably don't got a relationship with Drake now because of that, you know what I mean? Now I'm making music from a place of pure art and I'm making the illest art of my life. You're about to go down this journey. What would you tell that kid right now? Man, just be patient, man. And, and, you know,

understand that you already that person, you already who you're supposed to be. You're going to be somebody just like believe in yourself more. This season is presented by NMPA, the National Music Publishers Association, champions of songwriters and publishers everywhere. Welcome to And The Writer is. I'm your host, Ross Golan. Today's super producer is one of the architects of modern hip-hop. He makes stadiums shake, clubs bounce, and speakers blow up.

Whether crafting eponymous records for JZ and Beyonce or defining careers like ASAP Rocky and Travis Scott, this legend's fingerprints are all over the last decade of music. Oh, and he's an artist. Oh, and he's a dad all the way from here. This man is in the game for the right reasons. And the writer is hip boy. Yeah, man, great intro.

Appreciate that. Yeah, you know. I figure if you were going to wear those. ears I should give you a solid Yeah, yeah, I know. People gonna be looking at the interview. Like, what is he on? Man, it's just some wavy ambush, you know what I mean? I felt like a Christmas story when I woke up today, so, you know,

good movie there. There's something about having, you know, we have kids the same age. How often are you watching Christmas movies not during Christmas? Man, you know, it's so crazy. My son be humbling me, like, whether it's like life stuff or movies or music, like,

I'll try to show him, like, home alone. He's like, man, this movie looks old. Like, he want to watch YouTube videos, like, of other kids playing with toys. Like, it's the wildest thing ever, man. Like, highly produced stuff just does not, you know, with the kids want to see no more. It's a lot of perspective. Do you play him music? Yeah, I mean, he's in the studio with me, bro.

Like, I'm a full, full-time dad. Like, when I got my son, I got him, you know, through the week, all through the week till Friday. And he'd go with his mom for the weekend. But, I mean, he would have been here right now if he wasn't doing his homeschool at the house. Like, he's in interviews. He had studio sessions. He was there for most of it. I did six albums for Nause from like, you know,

2020 to 22 or 23. And he was there for most of the sessions. So much so that he made his own song. He made his own song when he was three years old because his fourth birthday was coming up. He wanted to make a song for his birthday. I just set him on a chair, put him on the mic. It blew my mind.

Like, I got a video. I was filming it. You can hear me laughing in the background because I'm like, bro, like I had no idea. He was taking all of this in, like, subconsciously. So when he got on the mic, it just was flowing. Like, he was saying stuff, had his own little context to it. It was funny. Is that taught or is that, is, is music taught or is it ingrained in a human? For me, like, I'm not a technical guy at all. Like, I feel like

all my stuff got downloaded early being around my uncle, being around my family that played a lot of soul for music, Motown, whatever it may be, R&B stuff, early 90s. And, you know, the chord changes was I didn't know what they were but I just felt like magic it felt like something was happening and I feel like that's the same thing that's happening to him he watched me make beats he mess around on the keyboard he didn't record his own songs he watched me with people like Big Sean with gnaz with whoever it may be and it's like he's seeing a lifestyle and it's like I got like you know even his teacher texts me yesterday like he should get singing lessons because he really likes to sing like when they're doing songs and for the class

and stuff like that. Like he really is passionate about singing. So, yeah, I'm going to really cultivate that and really, you know, push him in the ways that he want to go. Yeah, it's a weird thing when you're a dad and you're trying to look for what skills are. Where do you put the gas on? Which fire? You know, you see these little things.

You're like, okay, well, he's really good at this, but I don't think he loves this. He's really good at that. Like, he's clearly singing really well. Like, all right, let's go there. Like, he's been doing the, he played baseball. Baseball won full year, but he's been, like, practicing this year again. And I also got him a basketball trainer, but he's, like, in a basketball way more.

Lately, he's been telling me he don't want to go to baseball practice. He wants to train with my boy Team Reg. Like, they, he already, like, he went from, like, barely being able to get the ball up to now he hitting, like, 15, 20 shots, like, just like every little session. Like, he might hit four or five in a row sometimes. And, yeah, like, I'm really, like, he, when we leave the studio, so there's a hoop in the back, He makes sure he put up shots before we leave. Like, he's like, I'm not leaving.

I'm not leaving at all until I'm done. Like, he's really passionate about hoops. So I'm going to keep him in that. Are you more excited about a release or are you more excited about him hitting five shots in a row? A release of a song? Yeah. No, for sure, watching him make the shots. You know, he resilient, man.

Like, it's like if he miss a bunch in a row, he would like literally tell me like, man, I'm not leaving this place until I make my last shot. And that's motivation for me, you know what I mean? It's like some proud dad moment type vibe, like just like, damn. Like, he really got something in him. He got some dog in him. We had like at a song that popped on the radio where I turned back and I was like, hey, man, I wrote this. You know?

Yeah. And this was kind of a few years ago where he just, I just, the first time he was, we were ever in a car where we heard a song that I wrote. And he looked out the window and he was like, bus! And I was like, that kind of said everything where it was like his interest in whether I did something or like he was clearly in his own like interested in something else. Like I said, man, my son humbles me every day. Like I make new music. I make some beats. I make some songs.

I hop in the car. First thing I want to put on is the new stuff I made. He like, no, play K-pop demon hunters. Like, I want to hear that. I want to hear soda pop. I want to hear whatever. I'm like, wow, this is crazy. But it's some humbling experience.

Does it make you change the kind of music? you right? Like would you want to do? I don't make me change it, but it gives me perspective. Like, okay, this stuff is getting hundreds of millions of views, billions of views. There's something in a DNA that I can learn from, the structure, whatever it may be. Like, I make completely different music, but it's all just music at the end of the day. It's something I can take from that, you know. Do you want your son to be a musician? I want to be whatever, you know, he wanted to be. Like, you know, if he grew up to be a hooper or, or make music or want to be a doctor, whatever it may be, like, you know, I'm a supported.

All right, let's go to the beginning of your story. So you're a California kid. Yeah, Pasadena. I stayed in Pasadena until I was 13. And then I moved to the IE. I moved to San Bernardino when I was 13. Stay way up in the hills. Like, I had to walk to school.

I was like sad every day, man. Like just all my friends was in Pasadena. So I didn't know nobody in San Bernardino. I was like 50 minutes to an hour away from Pasadena. So like I would be going to school. sad every day and shit like and then um ended up just like that summer after like i got out of what seventh grade or whatever i just was like watching all these kids on tv coming up bow wow little romeo like just like i was like man i got to get on tv i got to turn it up like what they get

fly they're wearing the flyers clothes they got girls chasing them i'm like that's the life but i already had seen the life through my uncle he was in troupe rn r b group had some number ones and stuff but I live with him for an early part of my life. So I saw that, but really I got charged up by seeing kids my age. Like, that was going crazy. So I started writing music, didn't know what I was doing at all. You know what I mean? Just picked up a pad and a pencil and just started writing anything that came to my mind.

And I just kept it going from there. Then about a year and a half, two years later, my uncle hit me and was like, man, my friend knows this kid. And he got like the, he got like, you know, the host. set up to record to make beats. Like, you should go over his crib and just check it out. And I went over his spot, bro. He had Asid Pro, FL Studio, like the early, early version, all cracked stuff. You know what I mean?

He had the CD burner with the labeler, with everything we could make, like, albums right out of his bedroom, you know what I mean? So we started doing that. And I was just rapping the whole time. And basically, I just started messing around with the beats. Like, I wasn't even, I wasn't trying to take it serious. at all. I was like, it looked like a video game, you know what I mean? Especially FL in particular, like just the blocks and the colors and how it looked was like a video

game. So I just like, man, let me see what this about. I used to watch him make beats. I started messing with it. I'm like, man, this is actually fun. You know what I mean? I'm clicking this stuff just random. And I'm like, I actually want to dive into this. And that's what made me just be like, man, I'm about to get my own setup. And I started making beats. And it always was still to this day, it's just fun. Like, I'm just like program. I'm like a master programmer more than I am like a person that's going to hop on stage and play keys or something. Like, I'm like a, I really, you know, started on tech. You know what I mean?

I started with tech. Didn't realize it. But I was learning to be like a master programmer from the time I was like 15, 16. And now where I'm at and just being able to hear stuff the way I do, it makes a lot of sense. When you said you started with a pen and paper, what were you writing about? Man, bull, crap, nothing. It wasn't real? Yeah.

I mean, it was, I was trying to rap about the stuff. people was rapping about on a rap city in 106 in Park. Just like, I didn't have no car with no 20-inch rims, but I still wrapped about it at 14, 13, you know, but, you know. Yeah, you're two years away from my license and you're talking about. Yeah, I know. I know. Yeah.

What, you know, obviously moving around a lot, you know, what's the, what kind of, who is, who are you living with and who is playing you different kinds of music? Because, like, your influences feel like they're from all over the place. No, they are. It was, I mean, I always stayed with my mom, but we stayed in different households. We had different apartments. We moved around a lot, you know what I mean? But everywhere it was hood and everywhere it was soulful.

You know what I mean? They played, you know, all the rap stuff that was out, gangster rap, West Coast rap. And they played a lot of Edda James, Aretha Franklin, Mary Jay Blige, just, like, all, like, the classic stuff. When did you first start working with somebody where you were like, okay, I'm going to make a beat you rap or I'm going to rap, you make a beat? Man, bro, like it must have been the first couple months after I, not maybe not even that long, but like I just hopped right in. As soon as I started making beats, like I also was tired of being broke and tired of not being able to go get Jordans and go get the nice stuff I wanted. And my mom couldn't afford it. She was doing the best she could, but like, it just was what it was.

My dad had been in prison since I was three, still in there right now. But it's just like, you know, just started looking at it from like, damn, I could really hustle with these beats too. So, like, I went back to school. Like, yo, I make beats. I rap. I'm like, if y'all want to make music. And I sold my first beef with 20 books, like, ASAP.

I was like 16. You know, from that moment it clicked. And I was like, hold up. I'm going to keep doing this and just kept moving around. And when MySpace came out is when I really start. expanding. I was like 17, 18, going on 18. And I had a MySpace page would always just do remixes and put songs up. And- Was it under Hit Boy? Man, so it used to be hit boys. It was two of us. And we ended up splitting up and I had access to the MySpace. So I just literally took the S off

just to be an asshole just to be like, you know what I mean? Like F you, you know what I mean? And then people started hitting me, sending me messages like referring to me as Hit Boy. They're like, hit boy i'm like yo it's actually a cool name i'm gonna just keep this name and uh just went from there and basically like uh why did you get split up man so it's a it's a it was a real story that like really molded me like basically like this kid that i was working with his name was eric king he like was like master on the piano like he'd been playing since he was like five six years old like nice so i took him around these producers i knew that i had to connect with Long story short, they end up signing him behind my back, though,

and it kind of just, like, push me to the side. And that's how we split up. But it's like how he came to me and he, like, told me, like, man, like, you know, the production ain't paying us, man. I'm just like, like, you know, keep playing keys in church and, you know, just focus on that when he had really signed with the people I introduced them to. So I just was like, that was like a real first, like, super betrayal. You know what I mean?

In my story in my life. But it moated me. It made me, like, goes get music books. books and maybe go get just watch YouTube, just watch like and get around other musicians and just like get my musicality up. You know what I mean? Really learn how to structure chords and whether I'm playing them or programming them making them come to life.

Yeah, I always tell people that it's when people say like what's advice to give a new writer, I always say learn how you're getting screwed. Right. Yeah. That's the best thing because you're going to get screwed. So the question is like, what do you give me in return? And that it becomes a real valuable lesson when you started seeing like, oh, shit, people don't care for me. Like, I have to figure this road out.

For sure. Yeah. I mean, I didn't even realize that I was in a bad publishing deal until four years into it when I made a actual hit. When I was looking for that big check, when I was looking for that advance, like, it was like, nah, you signed this contract. And it's like, oh, damn. So this is not what I thought it was. What's advice you'd give the first? time you took that s off, you know, off my hit boys.

And you're like, okay, you're about to be, you're about to go down this journey. What would you tell that kid right now? Man, just be patient, man, and understand that you already that person. You already who you're supposed to be. Not like fully developed into that, but, you know, like, you're going to be somebody just, like believe in yourself more. Yeah. Yeah.

My space is, first of all, we were just talking about my mom. MySpace like last week. You know it's like a fully functioning site still. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like all your music for sure is still out there. Crazy. Like, guaranteed if you look that up, it's still up there. You know, when you said you introduced your co-writer to these producers, were those people,

like, how did you start meeting people in the music business? Was it just people hitting you up on, on MySpace and selling it? Well, that particular situation was, so I knew Steve Russell, who was. in the group troupe with my uncle Rodney B. And he had started to produce like a bunch of R&B stuff. He was doing a bunch of Omar, O'Mar, Marcus Houston, B2K, all of that stuff. And so I was just like, you know, I'm seeing this stuff on TV. I'm like, oh, he turned up, you know.

So I just start blowing him up. Like, man, let me pull up to the studio. Let me learn from you. Let me study. Like, first he just blowing me off, brushing me off. Then finally got that call. Like, man, you can pull up today. So we went to the underdog studio, you know.

Edmunds Tower is right off, Coangan. Hollywood, yeah, and that was the start of me seeing, like, like, bro said, like, walking through the halls and you're seeing, like, celebrities, you're seeing superstars, people you see on TV, and it was, like, eye open and like, oh, this is how they do it. Like, they had an ill process to the underdogs. Like, they would all just be in the room, artists show up. They talk to the artist, see what the vibe is, and they just start writing the song right there on the spot, like, you know what I mean?

So I got to see all of that, all that process, but that was how that went down. So I brought Eric with me and Eric ended up, you know, just they was mesmerized with him because he knew all the gospel chords, all the R&B changes and bridges. And like he just was advanced with it. And it was like they kicked me to the curb, you know what I mean? This is when Candace and Wendy are probably part of the underdog's world. Man, this is probably way before that. Really?

This is 04, bro. This is way back. Yeah. Yeah. Do you keep in touch with them now at all? Because for sure, you come across at least one of them. I mean, Harvey worked with the Grammys. Yeah.

I mean, I'll be seeing him here and there. Damon, he cool, you know what I mean? Steve, cool. I follow Steve on the Graham. And, you know, for Steve, like, family, he'd been around my family since before I was even born. So there's no love loss. It is what it is. And I get it.

And I needed it, you know what I mean? To become who I am now. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, Harvey's the CEO of the Grammys now. That's kind of wild. Crazy. The, getting kind of humbled like that forces you, I mean, for sure, it forces you to do the thing. You're going to do one or two things.

You're going to fall off to the wayside or you're going to go study and get better. Like I had, I'm going to guitar center. I'm going to Sam Ash. I'm going everywhere. Just like getting any book I could to just show me like where to place my fingers for the chords. It is before like YouTube's doing like what it is now. Yeah. like for sure.

So it was hard to explain. Like you have to actually, you had to read and it had to experiment a lot and just see if it was any good. What was the first beat that you made that you were like, oh, I've made it? I made it? Maybe I, maybe let's take that back. Let's say that there's a point where you have this beat where it's like somebody who kind of quote matters was like, I want this beat. I mean, the first, um, man, I mean, I'm. was doing it way before this, but the first placement I got that came out on a label back when,

you know, you would go to the store and get the CD open a bookly. Like, I did a song on Jennifer Lopez. That was my first official placement, like, on a major label. And, I mean, you know, I'm proud of that situation. Just like, that was a time where, like, I was, like, it felt like a star, like, you know, showing my mom my name next to Jennifer Lopez and all these other big producers. And it's like, oh, I've arrived, you know. Was your mom always supportive?

of this journey. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's why, you know, first thing I did when I got some money was bought her a crib. I didn't bought her all type of cars, like make sure she's straight and give her money like every month, you know what I mean? And basically like this was back in the day, people like a lot of kids, especially didn't have setups in their house, didn't have computers, didn't have NPCs, didn't have mics. So it was like foreign.

Her people, her friends, even some family members would come over and be like, bro, like, what is he doing? Like, what's all this noise? Like, we're trying to watch a movie. Like, you're making all this noise in the back. And she was just happy that I was inside because she didn't want me to go down that path. My dad, you know, was on. Do you have any relationship with your dad?

Great relationship. Yeah, for sure. And, you know, whether we're talking or not or whatever, I always got real love for him. Like, even him being locked up, I still, I didn't have a dad. I knew I was missing something, but we still were write letters, talk. He would call me when he could. And I still felt like I had a dad, you know what I mean? Just like, but he just wasn't present.

You know, I've seen a lot of things that I did miss. with having that, not having that physical energy, you know what I mean? But, man, like, I didn't invest it in my dad. He came home in 2023, and we went on a whole run, man. He was on stage with Kendrick Lamar at the pop-out concert, like, holding my son. It's a picture of Kendrick, my son, and my dad on stage. He did songs with Snoop Dogg, Y, G, music, Soul Child, Todd, Dollar sign. Like, the whole, like, you know, urban rap world just embraced him just off-rip.

He was rapping, you know what I mean? And we made albums. He made money. He did a lot of things and he still ended up back in prison. And that was a place that pushed me to where I'm at now. I'm mentally like focusing on myself and really like, man, you can't save really nobody. Can't save everybody for them. So it's like I got to let him be the man he is.

Like, and he lives a different reality than me. Like I'm, you know, A, B, and C, X, Y, Z. Like, it got to be clear. Like, I don't like confusion, you know what I mean? And it's like when you got a lot of people around you, a lot of opinions, a lot of people talking, it creates confusion and you don't see what's really right in front of you. And, you know, I provided with so, provided with him, you know, provided him with so much opportunity for him to end up back in that position. I'm like, man,

I got to really mash out and go focus on me now. Like, spent a lot of money, a lot of effort, energy, put my name, my reputation on the line, all these things. And it's just like, I'm not to do that for myself now. Yeah, and there's nothing that keeps you more present than being a dad Monday through Friday full time, you're going to be, you know, that keeps you really grounded. It's like I'm sneaking in the beats now. I'm sneaking in the time to write, you know, versus like. I always feel like I can, I mean, it's slightly different, but I'm, it's that time, that time in the middle of the night when I'm up because somebody's like not, somebody's making noise. Someone of the kids make, you know, it's like, it's like, I feel like I go to the studio and I'm

executing whatever I thought of all night. Exactly. You know, like, oh, shit, that's a sick beat. And then you're, like, doing a voice note of something or whatever it is. And then you go to the studio and you execute the idea rather than just, like, have the all day sitting in it. No, that's amazing. Like, I'm on the same thing where I'm recording voice notes. I'm writing random lines down, things I might see or might hear.

And, like, by the time I get to the studio, it's like, it's flowing because it's like, I know it's crunch time. I got to, like, makes this time count versus, like, when you young, you want to, you in the studio, you want playing video games. You brought girls through. doing all this stuff. And it's like, now, nah, we at, we at work, for real. In your head, are you a producer, a writer, or an artist? Man, I'm a artist, man, I'm a musician. I do everything. Everything, man, whether I'm writing a verse for somebody, a hook, if I'm writing my own stuff and I'm making a beat, I'm just happy to be making music. Like, none of it. I differentiate

none of this. You know what I mean? That's why people, I didn't heard, oh, man, man, stick to producing and da-da-da-da. It's like, bitch, I am stuck to producing. I will never be not stuck to production, but I'll just make music. Like, I have stuff to say. Like, I got stuff that's in my mind that I need to get out. That's how I express myself. And, you know, I'll never stop doing none of this. Like, recording, you know what I mean?

I've engineered most of the nod sessions. People might not even know that. You know what I mean? Like, I really sat there and recording him, just me and him in the room, like, going back and forth, helping him format stuff, moving hooks. And, oh, you said this, like, at the end of a verse. But I think it should be a hook or a bridge, like, just really making it makes sense. Like, it's more than just sitting in the room.

making beats. I watched his master class. Yeah. You know, he really is, it's hard to just find who's the best lyricist of my lifetime. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But he's definitely on that Mount Rushmore

of, of, of lyricists. For you, you've worked with the best rappers of all time. Certainly since, you know, you've been working. Who's on your Mount Rushmore of rap artists. Man, you know, I was just thinking about this, man.

I really don't like lists. I don't like political. I don't like nothing that could put me in a position and we're like, oh, you said this. I might feel different tomorrow. Fair. Because, man, I really listen to the most hood ghetto music every, like pretty much all day, bro.

Like, I listen to Rio de Young O.G. Peezy. I listen to Big Sad, 1900. I listen to Fat Jack, super gangster hoods music. You know what I mean? Like I really, you know, but I grew up on Jay-Z. I grew up on, you know, playing the high-level extra-produced fly, lyrical, you know what I mean? But I just, you know, I don't know.

I just like, I play a lot of hub music, man. Let's go to the business. So you get, you get, you know, I know you mentioned you at your 18-year publishing deal. Yeah, yeah. So what, where does that start? How do you get your first publishing deal? I was on MySpace. I met Polo de Dawn in 06.

It was like August of 06. He hit me up and was like, man, like just talking about the beats and was like, man, we can get some paper together type vibe. And then boom, finally got on the phone with him. He like, man, I'm more than just a producer. Like, I can help you know guide you through your career or whatever. And, you know, I don't think that Polo meant to like lock me in for 18 years. I just feel like the people that was doing his business along with you and PG.

It just, that's where the game was. That's what they saw happen. And that's what I just got locked. into, but, you know, again, man, this should just molded me. It just like, it made me be like very humbled all the time and just kind of almost like, I still want to make it. I still never made it yet, you know what I mean? No matter how much success I've had.

Polo was one of my first sessions outside of, I started working with like Dre and Vidal and those guys and it's like we kind of got, you know, started moving from being in a band to like writing the same time and I kind of end up in that same situation. a lot of those same producers. And I ended up in a session with Polo. And I just remember there was this artist that we were with it. It was like, you know, just like enamored with Polo's watch. It was this like crazy.

Yeah, the most iced out thing. Yeah. And he was just like, all right, sure. Just took it off and gave it to the artist. That was one of the craziest things I had seen at the time. Like here I am like trying to stay afloat. I'm about to give my condo back to a bank and here's this guy

I just handed like a year's worth of like Polo was doing it extravagant man super big like we used to like go to the club I was signing him

I was sign his own four you know what I mean he just had Atlanta on smash he had a lot of places on smash but like I watched him he don't even drink or smoke none of that he's sober

he bought like $75,000 worth of champagne and just like everybody drink free for the rest of of the night, like, just to keep the club open. Like, he just was doing outlandish wild stuff. And, you know, maybe that's why I'd be throwing turked-up parties. You know, watching, being new to the industry is one thing, but being new to the industry and being surrounded by those who are spending money in a different way.

Like, that's an era when a lot of producers were getting paid insane amount of money for beats. And so they were spending money, like, it was going to last forever. What did you learn about being around people in the music business who had money? What did I learn? I mean, that it can firstly come and go. You can have it and you can not have it. I've seen a lot of people lose it all. I mean, I've been through my situations where I had Ives and had to go back down to zero and start over.

You know, it's just like you got to stay tapped in. You got to stay focused. You got to stay updating your software, man. You cannot get stuck in the past and think that one thing. thing is going to be one way forever. Like, I move, like, it's a new time every day. Like, I'm updating myself every day. Just, like, moving flyer, just moving smarter, just utilizing my time, you know, properly.

You end up getting, you know, the first big hit is Lil Wayne featuring M&M. I mean, you had some songs that were significant, but that's like, at the time, like, yeah, this iconic. Yeah, I was the first one that was like, okay, now the hip hop community and, you know, the people on Twitter, that's hip hop Twitter and all that was really like, oh, hit boy chasing cash, surf club, that's a whole situation, you know, that's like something that we got to keep our eyes on. When you're in the studio with those guys, how is it directing those guys how to perform? Are you?

Far as who? Either. Let's go Lil Wayne. Well, I wasn't. with little wayne this is back in the day you know wayne was just like smoking hot back then like we wasn't really getting around and we just sent the beats over to his engineer k y k y was his full-time engineer but um i did like that was a time where just like spark like okay i got to follow my intuition and i know what i'd be talking about because when me and chase made that beat i had watched

the interview little wayne said he wanted to work with m and m so that day we made that beat i was like bro this is the beat for wayne and m and chase just so happened to get it to kate's just so happen to get it to K-Y and K-Y and it really came to life. I was like, oh, I'll be spot on sometimes. Like, I got to really keep following that intuition. Do you ever question your intuition? I have. I have, man.

And I don't know why. Trauma, whatever it may be. You know what I mean? Like, now that I understand myself more, I've been doing therapy, like, just, like, able to articulate myself. I understand, like, I always had it. Like, you know what I mean? It was, it would be times, like, like, like. I used to be feeling ways about me and Kanye always clashing.

But then I realized like he clashed with almost everybody. So it's not just me. You know what I mean? I was like taking that hard. Like damn, like why am I always going back and forth arguing with this dude? Why is he always whatever? Like whether he arguing with me about credit. And I'm telling him like, bro, like if you want like you could take all the credit.

You Kanye West, you know what I mean? We were getting back and forth about, oh man, you was in the studio. This guy said you made the beat. Well, I actually did make the beat. That's why they said it. You know what I mean? But like we were getting to it about shit like that. You know, I just took it personal when I shouldn't have.

I should have just kept in industry like the rest of these motherfuckers. But you have this really, I was going to say this later, but I feel like when I have songs that come out, they're really like specific for like this artist, that artist, this thing, and it's one song at a time. And I don't necessarily dial in with artists. But you have this, you know, they're few. But it feels like there are a lot of artists that are just one. to come back to you personally.

Like you have multiple albums and multiple parts of these careers or multiple songs with these artists. Why do you, what do you do that makes artists want to come back to you over and over again? I can't even tell you. I think it's just my consistency and really my imagination. This is all coming out of my mind, bro. Like I'm not the technical. Like I really, like, if you told me to get in the room with a pop star and they wanted to sit

at the keys and make some shit, I probably could make something happen, but like, I'm more so like my hits have come when I was just in the room just banging out just doing whatever I want to do that's coming straight out of me that's where all my biggest hits have come from how should a white guy say and in Paris we just say Paris okay so Paris just Paris yeah that sounds big yeah that was big another joint that I emailed you know I wasn't expecting nothing of it man NMPA is our lead sponsor yet again what is the national music Publishers Association. What do publishers have to do with songwriters anyway? Well, unlike artists who can be unsigned artists, there is no such thing as an unsigned writer. You can be a self-published,

a co-published, or a published writer. Publishers only make money if songwriters make money. So, NMPA goes and fights for you. They go to Congress, they go and support the community, they fight DSPs to get you paid more. That's what they do. They fight for you and they fight for this podcast. So thank you for fighting for songwriters NMPA. Thank you for fighting for us too. Okay, so I use Splice and I'm pretty sure every producer who listens to this uses Splice, but if you don't, you need to start using Splice. They have the most incredible licensing library that you can go through for any kind of samples you can think of, but they take care of their original creators. In fact, they just came out with a beta version of their AI suite, unlike its competitive,

competitors that we know that may not take care of the original creators. Every time you use Splice as AI tool, it triggers a licensing event for those original creators. So there's not a better company that I can think of right now that you can use where you can use the efficiency of AI and also know that you're taking care of the creators. And that is Splice. Is that how you meet Kanye or were you working with you? No, we did a song called Christmas at Harlem.

That was the first song we ever dropped, Christmas song. And I was like, when I sent his cousin Ricky to beat, like, some months prior. And he was like, yo, basically like Kanye was looking for some stuff at the tail end of my beautiful dark, twisted fantasy. He was like, yo, yay liked the beats, but they just don't fit this particular album. And then a couple months later, or like a month or so later, he hit me like, yo, Ye about to do a Christmas song over one of your beats. And I was confused, like Christmas song. I just didn't really get it.

But when I heard it, I was like, oh, this is fly. Like, just like, you know, everybody told their perspective. He had the remix with Dip said. Like, it was fly. But, yeah, that's how we connected first on Christmas and Harlem. But then we went to, we went to studio, like, January 2011. We went to Abu Dhabi. We went to New York.

We was just locked in, working traveling and making music for him and all of his artists. I worked on stuff with John Legend, pusher, big Sean, like everybody that was over there and I was working on other songs with him and Jay Z that I was like I was like man the hype it was on none of them songs made in nowhere they didn't they just got cut niggas in Paris was just a beat I had email and they was like boom they went to Paris and they must have just been my potty was lit turned up and they recorded most of that just like in hotels and stuff so it was like a more personal intimate energy so I'm sure they probably was lit put that beat on and everybody started dancing maybe it was some girls in there and dance

I don't know how I went down, but they turned it up. And then when Kanye the next day, he was like, yo, me and Jay just did this song on your beat. He was like, when it's come out, your life about to change. When you heard that, where were you the first time you heard Paris? I was at the planetarium in New York. They had the release part, not the release, the listening party with everybody in there. I remember DJ Callow was in there. The clips, push it, like, you know, the whole good music, bunch of celebrities.

Beyonce, I believe, was there. They play in the album. They played no church in a while at the intro. People going crazy clapping. Then lift off. Then when niggas in Paris dropped, I remember DJ Callie, he's like sitting right behind me. He got up. He started going crazy.

Wow. And I see the whole planetarium. They got the stars. They got like the moon. It's like looking crazy. And everybody in that joint was just jumping up and down, like losing their mind. I was like, oh, this is different. This is like Kanye was right.

it's hard to know a song's coming out with big artists and not already start. It's like buying a lottery ticket where you see the first number matches and the second number starts to match. Yeah, for sure. And we've all been part of the song where it's like the third number doesn't match before. You know, you think it's going to happen. It doesn't happen. When did you know Paris was happening?

I mean, just the energy around Watch the Thrones. already knew, I mean, obviously it's Jay-Z and Kanye. It's about to go crazy. But once I started seeing other people reactions from the planetarium Monty and then boom, we started partying playing an album all night. And that song just had people in a chokehold. And then when I came back to L.A., I started getting booked for club appearances. I'm going to different clubs in Hollywood, hide and all that.

And just like, bro, it was like being at the concert, like just off-rip. Like the first time I heard it in the club, they probably played it like five times back to back. and the whole club was just turned up. I'm like, this is a movie. I got a little too caught up in that, though. Yeah, what does that mean? I just started partying a lot.

Start throwing my own parties, you know what I mean? Just like, I always kind of threw my own parties, though, even when I was younger. But I started really kind of going super hard with it. And, you know, that was a part of learning curve. You got scaled back and you got to really stay focused. That's, you know, that's why I'm at the spot now. When you see younger producers doing a victory lap, an unhealthy victory lap.

Do you chime in and let them now? I mean, I don't really be hanging with producers like that. I got a couple of homies, people that I've been cool with. And, you know, I connect with different people. But, I mean, you know, hey, do you, man? You got to learn what you got to learn. You know what I mean? Period.

Click is amazing. I love Big Chon. He featured on one song I did, and I've never met him. But I think he's like, I just think he's incredible. It's like his flow is like it's so incredible. I learned a lot from Big Sean, man. You know, he let me be an executive producer on Detroit too, which was a super important to him, you know,

follow up to his mixtape Detroit. That I also was on, I produced on that too. And, you know, we did an EP together, like, you know, it was like me, it was Big Sean and hit boy, like, you know, gave me a lot of looks and just learning from his process, like, man, he has say some stuff that I'm like, mind-blown, like, it's amazing. and the hill hit me the next day. Like, no, I'm going to change that line.

I got something better. And it's like, oh, you got to, like, sometimes, like, sit there and really listen to what's going on. Just don't go off the first thought. That's crazy. Drake trophies, you know, that's, like, prime Drake coming out. Yeah. How does Drake hear the beat to trophies? He just hit me up for some beats.

Probably must text me or hit me on a group. whatever it was. He hit me up, sent him a pack. And that beat, like, I had the horns. I had chopped the horns and then programmed the drums and my boy Ray, he added some like stuff to the drums too. But I had a bunch of like, I had some chord changes. I had this whole like stringing section with this like super R&B lush sounding stuff. He erased all of that and just turned it into like an anthem, you know what I mean? And that's another thing, even with the pairs beat, I had like this whole section with this brass and it got big, more sense. and Kanye scraped all of that and just kept that main synth with the drums and added a couple extra little bells and whistles.

But that taught me to just scale back sometimes and really like let the artist be the main attraction and let that beat just like, you know, run with them. Yeah, it's so vulnerable. It's like it's hard to be, to pick, you know, it's like you go to some, some restaurants and they'll have five dishes that have them all these ingredients. you don't know what's in it, like it tastes good, and it's amazing how they made it happen, but there's just a shit ton of ingredients. And then they'll, you know, they'll cap off a whole meal with like,

this is a steak, and here's some salt. And it's the best steak you've ever had and the best salt you've ever had. And somehow it just works. Like, you don't need all the stuff. Yeah. When do you know how to stop producing on a beat? Now I'm kind of just, I'm in a state of flow.

I'm just like, just happening. So, like, I feel it in my spirit, man. I just like, I'm like, oh, this is done. This is good. You know, you could always go back post-production. I love post-production. I love getting the vocals and being able to finesse it and work, you know, add a chord change here, add whatever, just like make the moments. But that initial thing and my most success are my most simplistic beats. So, like, why wouldn't I follow that? You know what I mean? It's just like in and out, man, they got three things, man, by a double single. protein, whatever, you know what I mean?

It's that simple. Like, people like consistency, and they like to just, like, know, like, you know, I'm going to be good here. When a song like trophies goes, you know, where so many of the artists you worked with you really dialed in, what was it about that situation that didn't make more songs? Like, I feel like that was like the Drake anthem that, and then you kind of, went on and we're working on this stuff. Man, you know, it's a lot of things, you know, and it's like I can't call it one specific thing,

but I know something that I can say and I can take, you know, I want to say, I guess blame for it. It's like, I was like, I was super pressed about this song going on, nothing was the same. I probably don't got a relationship with Drake now because of that. You know what I mean? And I just was like hitting them every day, pushing them, like, you know, to where he didn't even put it on,

nothing was the same. And I was kind of, I was, I was actually pissed about that. You know what I mean? And, you know, you know, We haven't really been cool like that since then Even though he did hop on Sicko mode But I don't even think he knew I did that beat When he rapped on that

I think Travis just took it in and like Get on this type vibe But yeah Because I'm gonna tell you my I'm just like in my mind You know at this point I know I'm in this bad deal So in my mind I'm thinking like Oh maybe I just got to out do niggas in Paris

And then I'm gonna get out this deal Then I'll advance Then I'll get da da da da And I'm like every artist I'm pressing Like put that you need to put this on your eye I'm da-da-da-da. And it's like, it never was that. You know, the contract was the contract, period. And it's like, it was, I had to wait it out and I had to do what I had to do. But I probably did put some extra pressure on Drake to where. You're like, man, I don't even putting this shit on my album no more. You know, you end up putting it on a random young money compilation. That song deserved better in my eyes. But that's just what it was at the time. So, you know, it's all love though. Like, Drake, great artists. Got a bunch of licenses, so that's good. Yeah, I mean, it's stay on the any Super Bowl and any. Field, basketball games, whatever, baseball, you know.

So it's good. What was the part of the publishing deal that kept you in for so long? Was it MDRC? MDRC. What was your MDRC? I don't even know, bro. I can't even tell you. But I know that like...

There's an era when people were like doing eight songs, 12 song, MDRC. Yeah, but mine was like five songs, but it's like even way, going surpassed the like five songs. It was like they didn't count a lot of my stuff. Like certain stuff had to come out on a CD or whatever the case was. And it's like they stopped making CDs. So it's like y'all still going to honor this. And, you know, however it went down and went down.

And we're all dealing with it. And this is the thing. It's like you can't compare deals with what's going on today. If you did a deal 10 years ago. And yet you're sitting there and you're like, you know, imagine it's the, it's like the Scotty Pippin thing. You know, it's like you're sitting there. You're like, wait, I'm getting like $500,000 a year still. You know.

And you're winning championships. And you're like, I definitely been winning championships, man. So I definitely felt the way, you know. And, man, I'm just happy to be here, man. I feel like a whole new person, you know, just whole new human being. That Black Cloud is gone. And it's like, damn, I was working kind of from a place of desperation for the last 18 years. Still feeling like I got to make it.

Or, you know, I can go back to living on Section 8. I can go back, broke, whatever. Like, so it's just like a more of a stressful thing. Now I'm making music from a place of pure art. I'm having fun. I always have done that, just didn't realize it, because I had this thing in the back of my head. But now it's like a clear path, and I'm just making straight art, and I'm making the inless art of my life. It beats is way better.

My 808 smack. My 808 is just like just not way harder than I ever been able to make, I can make them walk like a dog now. You know what I mean? I was just kind of guessing my whole career, throwing shit together, seeing what work. Now it's like, no, I'm sharpshooting, I'm precise. I know how to make the 80s dance now. How do you make 808's dance? Man.

Man, be me. Sick. That's called clickbait right there. Beyonce is good. Amazing. Great, great. Very precise. I was trying to chat with this morning.

Exce was a good song. Yeah, yeah. Yep. You got to hop on that. And then flawless. What's it like working with Beyonce? Say? Ill, just another sharpshooter.

Every part of her, everything, you know, visually, how she want to dress, what she, everything is dialed in, you know what I mean, way before. You know, I didn't see all type of mood boards and like her just like really focusing on how she want to present herself to the world and it's like she just executes, like, she'll execute her. Does your process change if you work with women? Nah, they be wanting to hard beats, man. They'd be wanting to, like, you know what I mean?

Maybe one stuff that Jay-Z want to rap on. I mean, Thick is the craziest beat of all time. It's a weird beat, man. I make that beat like 2014 because I did flawless for Beyonce and Nikki. And I gave her both of those beats at the same time. And I mean, Thick just didn't come out until, what, eight years later or something like that. Do you check up on beats? Do you ever go back?

Like, if I said, hey, send me a pack, would you send me a pack that's from all different eras? or do you tend to favor songs that are recent? It depends. Don't with the vibe. But lately, I've been just kind of updating because I still got most of my files from like 06 until now. So go back into Zips and just make stuff updated. Just like, you know, add the knowledge I got to it now.

Yeah. I mean, also it's just the same way with any song. Like it's so good to make sure you go back and not be precious about like, oh, I did it then. until I'm moving on. I think the writers who move on from a good song because it hasn't been cut yet, that's just a writer who doesn't understand the business. Yeah.

Yeah, for sure. I mean, bro, like I said, they took eight years to come out. Even sickle mode, like, that didn't come out for two years after I gave Travis the beat. And that Drake had already done his part. And that was sitting for like two years until Astro World came out. You know, so that was another. I actually played that beat for Jay-Z. And then when Sickomo dropped, he was like, man, I had this beat, huh?

And we just laughed about it. But, yeah, crazy. We can jump to Sickomone. That's a good song. Definitely. It really defines Travis Scott as, like, a worldwide, you know, artists. Like, you know, it's just like a new level. Like, you reach that whole album, man.

That whole album. Yeah. I did Carousel. I produced Carousel with Travis and Frank Ocean on that album on Astro World. Yeah. So I was a little part of that process. And I was like, oh, yeah, he's here now. He's like, he's been doing his thing.

But, like, Astro World was like that moment where I was like, man, he out of here. You know, Paris happens. And, yeah, I mean, who's not putting money on that collaboration? Like, anybody's like, you're scratching off that whole lottery ticket. You feel pretty good about it. But Sicko mode is so big. I mean, and it comes out that timing, 2018 for streaming. It's like the new level of subscribership.

A lot of people are part of it. He's blowing up on all kinds of social media. Yeah. You know, tell me about the process of, like you said, that someone has been sitting around for a bit, but the process of you discovering Sickomode, rediscovering it two years later as now it's a Travis Scott record.

I mean, well, I was always conscious of it because Travis FaceTime me the morning after him and Drake session, which was the night that Birds in the Trap came out. I produced way back. And I think it might have just been way back off that album. I did that with the homie Rojay and my boy, C-note.

You know, we all, yeah, yeah, for sure. That's my boy. We worked on that. And basically, the night that came out, Travis hit me, like, man, I need some beats. I need you to send me, because I had played him in that intro part from Sicko mode.

I had played that session, but I didn't give it to him. He's like, man, I need you to send that one that you played me and sent it to him. He's like, man, I got a big session tonight. I'm not going to work with Drake. Boom, he hit me the next morning. FaceTime.

He with the Drake vocals going crazy. He was like, you know, spazzing. And basically, it was like, man, I'm going to use this on the next album. So basically, I had to wait from, yeah, 2016. until 2018. It has two and a half billion streams or something like that. Crazy.

A lot of producers on there, but, you know, we still got to eat something off of that, for show. It's a lot of streams, though. Yeah. Like, if you're going to be splitting up the plate like that. Yeah, yeah, got to be. Here's a question. I mean, you, you produce on XO, but you're not a writer on XO.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, so basically she had the, you know, a lot of the song. I just came in and just like did some additional production, added some keys and some little drum programming and stuff. So this is a debate that we have a lot on this podcast. Yeah. Does that, do, if you add drums and keys, do you deserve to be a songwriter? I mean, I can't call it. You know, that's Beyonce too. You know, they got different rules over there.

It is what it is. You know what I mean? So it's like, you know, however she's seen it is being split up, that's her vision. Are beatmakers, not beat makers, are beat adders, you know, are those songwriters? Yeah, I mean, especially if they're coming up with unique parts and, you know, counter melody or whatever it may be something to just like bring the song more to life. Yeah, I mean, I mean, I'm, I like to give people fair credit. I've split credit with plenty of my own boys and just people that I know just like engaged and

fair percentages. Nipsey Hustle is an L.A. defining artist. And when you're talking about, like, if not, like, all of rap music, and when you talk about, like, the kind of music you were saying, you were listening to, like, he's like a god in that space. And you got to work with him on, you know, racks in the middle, which is, you know, a huge record. Take me through your journey.

with Nipsey. Man, I first met Nipsey somewhere out in LA, but I had already worked with him because my boy Chasing Cash knew Johnny Shipes, who Nipsey used to be signed to Johnny Shipes and basically to cinematic music group. And he was working on Bullets ain't got no name, volume two. This must have been 08, 09, whatever it was. And Chase has sent him some beats we made and he wrapped on his beat that me and Chase made made it was called Thugging. It was a song with him and Boozy. And I was our first connection.

And then from there, just started running into him in LA. We worked on other little stuff. We worked on mailbox money. We worked on a song called a hundred a show with Rick Ross. I produced that. He rapped on some stuff for me. He wrapped on this song called Alert that I had way back when I was early starting in my, you know, just to really dive into my artistry. And then basically we didn't we didn't we didn't work on no victory lap stuff when he was working on this island We didn't have no contact for like a couple years then I ran into him at a I think it was Beyonce show at the Rose Bowl and basically I was like man you got to pull up I got some joints I think I got this rabbit hair my mama

Basically yeah I was like bro I got joints you should pull up and he pulled up on me and um I had the racks in the middle song. I actually was trying to get him to rap on it because it was going to be like from my compilation. I was going to do a compilation with different artists. So it was going to be me featuring Roddy Rich and Nipsey Hustle. Then end up being Nipsey Hustle featuring Radi Rich and me because he asked me could he had a song. He heard it. I was like, bro, I need this for my project.

Like I need you to like let me start my next campaign, my next rollout with this song, you know, post victory lap. And I said cool when we did it And he knocked it out man And uh Made it a classic When you won the You know like it won a Grammy And it like got it was

It's hard to call like that bitter sweet It's just bitter You know it's like Well no But man you know it was like Validating too because we already like We felt like that When we made that song

We felt like it was Grammy level We felt like it was the highest honor We felt like we really did something, you know, and for it to be confirmed like that, was like, damn, you know, that was a good moment. And I really thought about Nip, like, just talking about his coming up to my studio and be like, man, I'm more than just a rapper, man, I'm a real writer. I really make songs, you know what I mean?

And that's what I'm trying to get across to people. And for that song to really, like, take shape like that. I'm like, damn, like, he called it. Berserk is really, like, you know, it's such a, it's such a big record. but, you know, now you have people featuring on your shit, and it's like it's really, like, becomes, I feel like that's like a coming out party of the artistry where it's like outside of people who are already following you, like, you had to notice, you know. That was a moment where I was just, like, trying to be featured on as many singles as I could.

Like, I was featured on some T. Grizzly stuff. I was featured on the Nipsey racks in the middle. I was featured on some big shine stuff. and just really like, you know, in that moment, I was, like, using my tag super heavy on every beat and just trying to be featured just so I can just get my profile up and really, like, put my name in a place where I felt like it should have been. Like, you know, it's like, man, I always think, like,

I've said this before, like, bro, like, if niggas and Paris had a tag on there, hit boy, it would be a way, way bigger name, you know what I mean? I could have when they got bags to DJ, I could have got a bunch of more opportunities that, you know, wasn't, didn't come to fruition because it's still people that, to this day, I feel like real music people know hit boy, but the average person might not know who hit boy is. So it's people that don't even know I made niggas in Paris.

And when they find out, they be tripping out, you know? Do you feel the same pressure as an artist as you do as a producer? No, I really don't feel no pressure no more, man. Because my pressure came from, I need to make sure me and my mom don't go back to Section 8. You know what I mean? And that's where the real pressure was. But now it's like, man, I got, you know, we got wealth. managers. We got tapped in with J.P. Morgan, man. We got real estate. It's just a whole new ballgame now.

You know what I mean? I don't feel like I'm going to ever get back to that space. So now I'm just more comfortable. It's just about art. Like, let me see where I can push it, you know, doing film stuff now, you know, working on an album in a movie with Alchemist, like, just pushing my artistry to places that I personally, like, felt like I could go to but never seen how I could get there. Yeah. We were talking to somebody recently who has. was saying, you know, we were talking about our kids. And it was like the one thing that we'll never be able to give our kids is having nothing. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. My son's sports. That boy, he want to go to Target. We go shopping. He want to get the Rick Owens jacket. He wanted to like, man, he, I spent like, man, bro. I ain't never got none of that. You know what I mean?

I never got no. and stuff like that. You know, I had what I needed, but not what I wanted. And I can't he get what he need and what he want, like drop of a dime. Do you feel like, how much do you owe your success to coming from nothing? I mean a lot. That's like, you know, my hustle, my drive, my just determination, man. It's like, man, because there was so many people that I'm like, bro, looking at, you know,

like the Eric King dude, like, man, I'll never be good as this dude. Like, I'll never be good as this dude. This dude rap too good. This dude, like, it's like, these people never made, had no, no accomplishments. You know what I mean? Like, most of the people that I used to look at and look up to. So it's like, you know, man, it get greater later, for real. Nas is, we were talking about him before.

It's just such a legend. And when you're talking about the stuff that you listen to when you're, like, you know, growing up in the 90s, like, Nas and Black Star and all that's, You know, all this stuff becomes so big. What's it like working with Nas and what's your relationship with him personally? Man, we was on the run, man. We was just hanging out a lot.

We was just like tapped in just like he wanted to work. And that was the biggest difference maker. You know, you got people that say they want to work and you come through. They come through. You play them 30 beats. They don't pick none of them or they pick one or two or leave and you never hear from them again. Like I played nods a couple joints and he start hopping on stuff immediately and just kept telling me like I'm a pull back up and he, you know, kept his word.

He just kept locking in with me and I had to honor that and, you know, give him the same energy back. Like, you know, when he was coming to the studio, I would like turn my phone off or put my phone down and just like, let me really study, let me really lock in with this dude and just like max out. That's why we made 80 songs in three years and dropped six albums. It's so crazy. Yeah.

That's so much music. What have you learned from watching Nas rap that you use as an artist? Man, just like being more snappy with the flow and coming back to stuff, just like I mentioned with Big Sean, like they might say some stuff that I thought was super ill, but then they, you know, they'll take a copy. They'll listen down. Like, oh, I can change this. I can make this better. And that's something that I definitely apply. Yeah.

You know, you also are starting to release more and more of your stuff throughout all this time and getting to really kind of collapse. with Big Sean on a different level when it's sort of like both you guys together. Is it, do those artists look at you differently when you come in as like, well, this is for me as an artist versus like I'm working on some beats for you as, you know, your project. Not really. Like I said, man, I try to make it all one world. I'm really like, oh, I'm super hype for you to hop on my album. Like, yeah, man, check this song out. Just like I would say, check this beat out.

And if it did inspire you to do something, like, let's rock. What's the craziest session you've ever been in? One of the craziest was like during the Watch the Throne sessions, New York, was at the Mercer Hotel and just like so many celebrities was in the room. He had a big suite with the music equipment set up, keyboards and Pro Tools, all the set up. And it was like, brother like Jay-Z, Beyonce. It was like Mariah Carey, John Legend, a bunch of good music artists. And it's like, I'm in the middle of the room.

got the keyboard. It was like a Yamaha, I believe, like a motif. And I'm coming up with chord progressions. Wild John Legend is sitting right here. Kanye right here, they both singing melodies as I'm playing the keys. And I just like, I made a beat, like, right there in front of everybody. And I was like, I was a moment. I was like, damn, this is ill. Shout out to John is a friend. He's great. Yeah, for sure. Watching and seeing the Sequin, Barclay, Jersey makes me think of when I was, would play fantasy football with him. Are you an Eagles fan?

Man, I just like, man, I'm like good colors and I like, you know, throwback jerseys. And this is a modern joy, but it's like, you know, I got that feel. But, yeah, man, I just like fly stuff. When you talk about, like, you know, that people get better with age a little bit, like, you know, he had like a couple years. They were pretty good. And then he's like, sometimes it's just the team you're on. It's like who you're around matters. Yeah, where you at mentally, the thing.

that's going on around you, yeah, like, you know, I'm sure you probably had some energy drainers that was around them maybe and got rid of them. Like, that's what I did, you know, so now, you know, I could breathe. I could just be, like, the best hit boy possible. What's the best advice you'd give young producers navigating the industry today? Man, what is the production game right now? I just, I just don't feel like what it used to feel like. It don't feel like it's like, you know, I just don't, I just don't see.

like, man, I seen somebody say something last night, like, we don't have a music business no more. We got a tech business that's using the music for data. And it's like, I just don't know what's what. I don't know who's the best right now. Like, I used to be a clear cut. Like, these are the top guys. But I don't even think artists care.

They don't really care about beats that much, man, to be honest, especially in the urban world. They don't really, they don't really care about having the illis beat. They want to have something that's some pianos, some guitars, some 808s, the same. snaring the tick high hat pattern you know what I mean it's like I've seen it man I've seen people come like man I want something different I play them something with an ill bounce timbling Neptunes level bounce nah give me some simple trap stuff like all right for show but you know know take that into consideration that's where art art are the artists are down so let me apply that let me make some so I got my 808 dancing you know what I mean it's like let me make some 808 shit

that's in that pocket but still got something different to it but still simple simple enough for, you know, an artist to get. The tech world for producers is wild right now. And it's like that the AI conversation is everywhere. And there's not a session I'm in where we're not talking about how crazy some of the stuff is. Yeah. How much are you using AI stuff? Man, I definitely, you know, implement it into my, it's in my toolbox.

You know, it's like, don't depend. on anyone thing. Like, if you got an NPC, don't fully depend on that. If you're on FL, like, just, like, experiment with stuff and just, like, see how you could, like, make something that's not, like, a lazy thing, like, make something that's, like, actually creative and then utilize it. Like, you know, I wanted a chant part for a song I made, and I, like, typed out the lyrics, and I just was, like, generating stuff until it actually gave me a voice that sounded, like, how I heard in my head. And I was, like, boom, cut it up, manipulated it, pitched it, and put it on the track and it's like you can't even tell it's wild

yeah um the you know when you're in a session with an artist who's like just rolling through tracks who's the hardest artist to keep up with in a studio uh one of them was jews world did a bunch i did uh five songs on this album death race for love like his uh that first album he dropped oh three grito um who else i'd be working with he's also So maybe the best freestyle or like... You know, he can go for hours. You know, he's just like... Rap about anything, stay on topic, never run out of lines.

Like, Juice World was... He was a beast with that. He was different, man. Like, I don't think I ever seen nobody just like... Just rap for that long and never run out of nothing to say. Don't say the same thing twice. Just like... Yeah, he was nice.

You mentioned Timeline and Neptunes. Big inspirations. Definitely. Just the creativity. To me, that's like the top tool when it comes to just obscure sounds and making them sound like music and making them sound like they belong in a certain pocket, you know? Like got other amazing producers, like it got the musicality. Like it sounds like live. It sounds good. But they music sound like they was taking the most random sounds and just like making it something like, you know. To me, they like the top when they come to creativity from beats. Is there an artist you'd be starstruck to work with? Starstruck? Who knows?

Maybe when I meet them. I don't know. I did a session with Smokey. Oh, that's it. That's probably about it. I've got a few, like, there are few people I've been in. I was in with Bon Jovi. That was the solid.

There's like a few of those people where I was in when I was like, Like, yeah, maybe like Stevie Wonder if I was gotten there with Steve Wonder, yeah, man. It's not impossible. I'm sure he would roll up. Are you a good dad? Am I what? A good dad. Nah, I'm an amazing dad.

I hear it all the time. People that don't even know me come up to me in the streets. Like, yo, bro, I love everything you do. But I see like the type of dad you are, just like even just through social media. It's like, man, that's inspiring. You know, I hear that every day. And I won't say I won't say nothing else I was gonna go I was trying I was fin to get too real

But yeah basically man I'm a great dad man Why don't you get too real Because it's just it's deep But The one person that should see like how great of a dad I am doesn't see it And it's like a net it's like a fly like the fuck are you doing Like you know what I mean type shit And you can probably guess what that is

But yeah everybody else can see it Everybody else says it. Everybody else is like, bro, like, you know, it's people that have their own kids. Like, bro, like, man, I ain't never seen nobody do it. Like, you got him in interviews. You got this dude that video shoots. You got him in the studio. Like, still leaving my sessions to go take him to swimming lessons.

Still leaving my sessions to go take basketball training, baseball. Like, I'm just like sacrificing because it's coming from a place of I didn't have my dad at that age. So when I look at him, I literally see like a little light skin version of myself. You know what I mean? I see myself when he smiles. Like, that's my same smile I had when I was his age, like his essence. And I'm like, bro, at this age, I was questioning a lot of stuff. We was moving around.

We was, you know, we had to go stay with my mom friends at certain points. We had to sleep on floors. We had to go through a bunch of bullshit. And like, he is like, he living like rich, he rich. You know what I mean? So it's like, and it's like, you know, beyond that, I'm there. I got, I'm doing the time with, I'm putting the time in with him. Well, thank you for doing the podcast, man.

Man, this was dope, for sure. We have a list of, you know, people, people hit us up a lot. You know, there's like, the list is pretty short of people we haven't had on. You know, it's like people are like, we want, you know, Max Martin. A Hit Boy comes up all the time. Man, that's crazy. That's what's up, man. Appreciate you all having me, man.

This was a good vibe. I like the spot. Nice and, y'all got a good bar over there, too, man. You know? I have to pull up more than I mean when I got my boy. Yeah. Pull up, man. I want to, you know, check out the studio somewhere.

Here's some stuff, man. It's vibe out. Thanks for doing it. For sure. We hope you enjoyed this episode. It was produced by me and Joe London in association with Mega House Music Group. If you like this episode, go give us a rating at wherever you listen to your podcast. And make sure to follow us at And The Writer is on all your socials.

We'll see you next week.