And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 23: Jack Antonoff

Episode Date: September 26, 2017

Welcome back listeners! For our first episode of Season 2, we have one of the music business's most in-demand collaborators around today. At this very moment, his work is seemingly inescapable on the radio waves as he co-wrote and co-produced Taylor Swift's new Top 10 radio single 'Look What You Made Me Do,", co-wrote and co-produced Lorde's smash sophomore album, "Melodrama," including it's infectious single 'Green Light," and even dropped a sophomore album of his own, "Gone Now," for his own artist project, Bleachers. He is widely recognized for his incredible skills as a collaborator and his amicable attitude...And The Writer Is...Jack Antonoff! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey guys, this is, and the writer is, and I'm your host, Ross Golan. I've written with hundreds of artists and writers over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life, the industry, politics, composition, whatever. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs, and most importantly, who the people are who write the songs. I'm producing this with the Great Joe London, big deal music publishing and mega house music management if you want to listen to the songs we

discuss in this podcast follow us on our socials find out about special events or buy some of our merchandise go to our website www. www.andthe writer is.com oh and if you enjoy this podcast please rate us on iTunes or whatever your preferred podcast listening site is we really appreciate that effort welcome to season number two First of all, thank you to all of our listeners for making us one of the hottest new music podcasts in the industry with over half a million downloads and counting. We've been getting tons of feedback from our emails and social media

and we appreciate all of your enthusiasm and your willingness to spread the word. So thanks again. Thanks for rating us on iTunes. All of that's been very helpful. We are starting this season off with Jack Antonoff. Jack currently has the hottest song of radio with Taylor Swift's, Look What You May Me Do, which is currently top ten,

and was only released three weeks ago. He co-produced and co-wrote the Lord album Melodrama. He co-produced and co-wrote the upcoming St. Vincent album. And if that wasn't impressive enough, he also released his second album as The Front Man of Bleacher's Gone Now. So without further ado, here is, and the writer is, featuring Jack Antonoff. Welcome to And The Writer is.

I am your host, Ross Golan. This week's writer, producer, artist, philanthropist is one of my favorite humans in the game. See, everyone agrees that the music industry is uber competitive. But a true artist only competes with his or herself. And this man has written and produced songs only he could write and produce. And as an artist, he releases songs only he can release.

From the New Jersey. This writer fights for gender equality and for the LGBT community. And the writer is, the guy I almost text every day because his name is alphabetically next to my wife's Jack Antonoff. I didn't know that. Dude, I can't tell you how many times I'm about to text you a picture of my dog. Or your dick. Or my dog. It is actually pretty funny.

So let's go to how it all begins. for you. You were there. Well, that's true. Kind of. I mean, I missed the whole steel train. Oh, yeah. You were there. I was there, is. Oh, like way back. I don't know. Okay. So, well, look, you tour around with the trailer that looks

like your bedroom. Is. That is your actual bedroom. Cut it out. It's important to work on projects that financially cripple you. Wait, wait, do you sleep in that? No, I just wanted I thought

So long and the short of that project is I love how quickly things move it out of days streaming, you get a song blast it out to the world immediately but I wanted the other side too and I wrote you know like I'm sure you have a space where you write a lot of music I'm not a very big hippie but I think

like the atmosphere of it gets charged like you charge it with these songs like it's the same way that if you're in a great studio where this happened like my version of that my Abbey Road is my bedchards. that's where I write all the songs. And so I wanted to play my new album for people,

fans in that room. Incredible. And it's important. I think that's important to, because I know you've had a million experiences like this too. There's so many things in music and art where you have an idea and someone's like, but you're not going to

make money. In fact, you're going to lose money. And then you get caught up in that game, but that's not why any of us started. No one in this room or in any studio you walked into is there because they wanted to get rich, they would have sold washing machines or stocks, which is such an important thing to constantly go back to because there's other people in our business that are there to get rich. So when you are building a trailer using your furniture from your childhood room, and you're in that

room playing the music, the new album for your fans, are you listening to it like you were 15? Do you find yourself like listening to your own album like you're a fan? Does that put you in that place? Or are you able to sort of differentiate you as the writer and the artist from... I'm pretty far from it now.

The idea of the project was sort of by giving it away. Like the album and a lot of my work in general is about moving on. I think I write a lot no matter what I write about what part of you froze. What part of you is unfrozen? Because that's sort of interesting to me

in general. which part of you is dancing into the future and which part of you is stuck in the past. So I like the absurdity of like you know, trying to move on. Well, here's my, here's the most absurd way of not moving on. So I'm pretty far from it. I'm even thinking about like maybe I'll like blow it up

and some grand gesture. But once I put something out of it, I usually get far enough from it. You mean like put dynamite in that old bedroom? Yeah. Blow it up for real. Just in them and like, you know, might as well race all the way down this road

of complete absurd energy. Are you working in a way to impress that kid or something? Yeah. I'm very, I don't know if you had this. I don't know who told me I couldn't do it. Because it wasn't my parents. They were great. Maybe it was school because I didn't do well.

But I have this sense that someone told me I couldn't do it. And when I say it, I mean all of it. You know, make a living, write songs, perform, feed myself, have like a healthy mind and body. Like I just, I don't know what it is. maybe it's a Jewish thing I don't I just I'm so

I'm railing against that and in that intro that you remember was very nice but it is when you said being competitive it's like that's that's the person I'd like to be kinder to is myself

I'm not really looking at anyone else but I don't know who I don't know who gave me such a chip yeah I pretty much have had like one therapy session and this this person said to me

it was like you know I have a lot of issues with 16 year old me like 16 17 year old I wasn't the best part of my life. And he's like, you know, you can go back to that guy and, like, hold his hand. Like, if you go back, what would you say to that guy? You know.

Or how do you forgive him? For being not great. Was your 16, 17-year-old self not great? Just, like, not inspiring on the way I wanted to be, not like... What would you have done differently? Nothing in hindsight. But at the time, like, I wanted to... make better music.

I wanted to reach people. I wanted to, like I just wanted to exist and I don't know, I just wanted to create more and I did not how to do it. And I was like stealing shit.

Wait, what do you mean? I was like into theft. You ever get caught? Yeah, I got arrested. Really? Or like the under 18 version I arrested. What were you stealing?

Well, I was really political about it. I would only steal from big corporations. Right. So, but I stole out of like, it was just like, sport. It was like something my friends and I got into. Yeah, we used to steal CDs from Borders. Yeah. Which is gone now, so I think. If it's not Borders, send me an email, I'll send

you like 25 bucks or whatever for the CDs that we used to steal. But actually, they were probably 25 bucks a piece. That was a weird time. Yeah. But yeah, or just like the concept of like, not to get super therapy, but like even nowadays, like, I'm obsessed with, and I keep wanting to use this as a lyric and I can't find a space. So I don't know what it is yet, but we would never, like a decent human being, you know, a non-banon, would never speak to another person the way they speak to themselves. A decent person would never speak to, you would never talk to me the way that you talk to yourself. Oh, wow. Think about the thing about the way that you, like if you don't, if you do something wrong, if you're not a okay, if you, you know, fuck something up.

Think about the way you treat yourself. And that, and that, I think, is, I've been trying to write that song for a long time. Is that a universal thing? I think it is. I think everyone treats themselves, not necessarily like utter shit. Like I don't think we're all abusing ourselves, but I do think that we all have a very hard time

treating ourselves like a friend. Who? What's that lyric? Like I wouldn't. Yeah, I mean... I would never talk to you like I talked to me. It's too chunky, right? It doesn't say it all.

Well, it's weird because you're the, you know, you're the antagonist in it, which I like. I never want the listener to be the antagonist. Totally. So if you're talking about, either you're talking in the third person where you're saying like, in a way, don't treat me how you treat you. Don't treat me.

That's nice. Ooh, that's good. Maybe I'll use that. Don't treat me like you treat. Or is it just like maybe I can't write it because I'm trying to make it like a hook and maybe it's just like a weird passing lyric where it's like, what did he just say? Did he just say that really profound thing in like, you know, the third verse or something? Right.

But I love the concept. But I'm sure you are like that too. It's like I have like certain certain flags in my head that I haven't written yet. That's a big one. Yeah. Like why am I so mean to myself? I'm not a mean person.

Who sets your like level of, I don't know, we were just talking about where you raise your bar, you know, wherever you set your bar and you aim for it. Who set your bar so high? Was it you? Were your parents? I mean, I think also as a Jewish kid growing up, I felt certainly in my family that everyone was an entrepreneur.

And so I felt like I was failing if I couldn't feed myself in doing what I was doing. Versus like, no, you know, I remember having the conversation early on in my career telling my mom not to tell people I'm a struggling musician and to just describe me as a musician. I had that conversation. that adjective really yeah like friends and family can look at my bank statement at another time but regardless of what's happening there I am a musician right and that is the pursuit and to be honest like if you're in you know if you're a resident as a doctor

you know before you become a doctor you know you're not making any money doing that either but everyone's proud of you because you're I think what pisses people off about artists is there they're they're you know no one's like uh you know I'm gonna go to college I'm gonna become an artist and uh

shit out a few kids and just be an artist for the rest of my life no one's ever said that so I think it inherently pisses people off when you go for it yeah um because that's that's there's only uh that's that's the whole story of life is trying to go for it but but there is something Jewish there

because you touched on a second ago I wanted to go back to it um I did grow up with this feeling World War II in the Holocaust is so present for Jews. So as far as that bar goes, like, there was this, not like invisible thought, but this, like, straight from my grandfather was like, yo, I got here in the craziest way, like, escaped fucking Europe, moved to Denver with no money, went back to Europe to liberate the camps, moved to New York City, like 13 people living in like in East Village apartment sleeping in drawers, literally, just so your mother could go to college.

and now you better not fuck this up. So it's a weird thing. And I think it's post-Depression mentality for Americans. I think it's post-World War II mentality for Jews and Europeans. But it's this like, we worked so hard so you could do whatever you want. So by all means, be an artist, do whatever you want, but don't you fuck it up? Because, you know, we didn't do this. So I always had the sense that like if I'm going to try this thing, oh my God, I better not

disappoint the people who, you know, didn't like put in a hard day's work to get me here, but like, you know, like fled war and like, you know, slept on the floor and, you know, success for my grandfather's generation was to be alive as a Jew. Success for my mother's generation was to have food on the table. So it's it. So I'm this lucky generation where they're like, okay, we worked so hard so you could actually have a choice. So I do feel this insane pressure. I think it's why Jews are so jittery. I laugh at that. My company's name is Papa T. Borr Incorporated.

You know, that all my music goes through my grandpa. Yeah. You know, who, same sort of thing. Barely escaped. And it was like, it felt like I look at every statement I get is written to that. I mean, all the checks. Every contract is written up. My name is Shirley Lawrence.

That's my parents. Yeah. Crazy. Are your grandparents proud of you? Well, I have one grandma left who's extremely proud. But the grandparents aren't here. The grandparents have departed over the past decade. Do you have any conversations with them in a way?

I think they are proud and I think it's the only time that I ever care about financial stability. Because I toured so unsuccessfully for so long. You know, had to be supported, had to ask my parents for money, not move out of my house for a very long time. I really had a lot of peace with that because I really believed in making work. But every once in a while, now that I've been able to support myself,

I don't really care about that stuff, but I care about it only because I can see my grandfather being like, you know, we worked so hard just to get to America to try to live the American dream and you're getting your piece of it. Yeah. Because that's the real American dream, right? To work incredibly hard through generations

and to be able to provide, for your generations to come. That's the only time I care about that stuff is like, because they weren't money focused. I mean, they lived in like a tiny house in Burlington, Vermont. The guy was a rabbi. You know, it's not like an ace way to get rich.

But that makes me proud. Because they were, I think there was concern for a long time. Good reason. When you're an artist, sometimes the universe yells at you to stop. How many shows did you play where, you know, it's not, like, oh, there wasn't a great crowd.

Like, there was no crowd. No one. The only audience member is the bartender. That's not like... Or the band that's either closing or opening for you if they were willing to stand there. The universe with... By all standards is yelling in your face.

Like, please stop. Like, we're asking you. Like, if there's a God, God did not send people to my show. God did not put money in my bank account. Like, if I was a religious person... And I think that's what's amazing. That's why I love talking to writers and artists and people who do what we do because there's not one who just ascended into it all.

Everyone had to buy the delusion until it wasn't a delusion anymore. So you're, I mean, you were just saying that the person that you feel like said you can't do it is the universe. For all those shows, you know, it's like, I remember playing in Asbury Park and going and playing it. And there was no one at that show. When you tell people that story because I do this, they're like, but Smith's Paul crowd. I'm like, you don't understand. Nobody. No one. And you're like loudly playing while the promoter like looks at you.

And it's like, this sucks. You suck. And you just, I mean, it's, you drove six hours or ten hours in a van with people that sometimes you really didn't even like. Yeah. To do it just, just to do it. You hurt your body, you hurt your mind. You just like diminished the no money you had. It's those early days of touring are so formative. I talk about this all the time. I don't know if people.

realize this, I'll be at a show, it'll be sold out, and I'll have this feeling like, I hope they come. Because I can't take it if they don't come. Yeah, still. Do you ever have like a cousin come visit you in Iowa? It was like, Ross is in a band. We're going to go see the band. They show up and they show up and they show up. This is what you've been doing? Like, there's no one here. Yeah, I had a cousin that's come up to my show in Seattle. And they were all so, they were really supportive. But I mean, I want to go back to have one thing that you said was that you had to ask your parents for money. And this was something, there's an artist, Andy Grammer, he says, he's said to me before, he's like, I think that there's always going to be an

asterisk next to my success because I'm a white male and just so much is given to a white male. And, you know, when I think of being in a place where you can ask your parents for some money, my parents helped me out a couple years after college and doing the same sort of thing, you know, I'm so thankful to have been part of that. But one of my questions is like, and I've wondered this, if my parents weren't able to help me out, I don't know how I would have gotten here.

Because there were so many times where, you know, I was, that assistance kept me afloat. I mean, they weren't giving, I was eating pasta with butter and salt because like, but you weren't not eating. Everyone needs help. So like, I've always wondered like,

how do you make? it in this, how does somebody make it in this industry if they can't ask for help? That's, that's tough. I mean, you need to find people who believe in you. I don't think it necessarily has to be the place you were raised from. You know, I think there's, but that's like, that's a huge problem with our, with our, with our government and our society. We know other countries have ways that if you're an artist, you can find help, you can get a grant, you can seek it out in another way. We're not really set up. to take care of people who aren't in,

I mean, in so many ways, obviously that's incredibly obvious. But there's a huge hole. There's a huge hole. That's something in the music business, you know, some of us get involved in music education and things like that. Like, everyone needs to be picked up in some way. It's very, there's a huge hole there.

When in the process, you know, Steel Train had a following. That's like a real band. It got there. It took a long time. So like we worked 10 years to get to the point where we could like, I think at the height, not to put it in financial terms, but we each made $300 a week. That was the, that was how, and that was enough to sustain on tour, not borrow money, go home and live with our parents. Like no one moved out of their houses.

That was enough that, and that was, we were the richest man on earth. Right. And in reality, that was, that wasn't delusion. We had a van, a trailer, and we could drive around the country. country and not lose money. Yeah. And feed ourselves. The fucking miracle if you think about it. Yeah, for sure. And there's also, there's, there's a difference between happiness and joy and some of of these other adjectives that describe that. But in the English language, there's only like the word, for the most part, when you would describe that time, you think of it as like, it's the same thing

as I was saying. Like, you're only so successful. Like the word successful is arbitrary. It's an absurdly relative concept. Totally. Same with happiness. And when you're saying in this case, you're able to provide for yourself and be a musician and you're able to tour around in a van and whatnot. That's as happy as you get in a sense that there were times where

we'd run into each other on your eighth month of touring for the biggest song in the world. And I don't know if you're happier at that time than you are when you have $300 a week. I think... No. It's just different.

They're just different universes. Yeah. So you're always in some sort of spectrum where the... You know, when I was in Steel Train, the bottom of the spectrum was, you know, not get by and no one comes and it's horrible.

And the top of the spectrum was, I looked at bands that could draw 500 to 1,000 people. And I said, that is the top. That is the ultimate goal here. And now that shifted. That shifted as life goes on. then you have another experience.

It's no different than like girls. It's like you make out with a girl and you're like, holy shit, what if I could touch your boobs one day? Cut to like you're in your 20s and you're fucking in your like seeing some weird shit on porn. I don't know. But like your whole spectrum shifts, you know. You remember that like being in like sixth grade and you had second base? And second base was like the equivalent of like, oh, I don't know, not even entering the hot 100.

You know, it's got to like, you're in 12th grade, and you're like, it was number one for a week that sucks. I was a chubby Harry Potter. I was having that conversation in sixth grade. I was wearing like a silk shirt with like different colors on it's like mid-1990s. Maybe you were just trying to, you know, even get a best hit. Yeah, man. You know, maybe we were trying to bunt, like a successful bunt. Yeah, totally.

But I think about that a lot, like how weird it's gotten where. but you know this comedian Mike Barbaglia? He's a great comedian He's a really old friend of mine I've known him for a long, long, long time and then I met Bonnaroo 2005 He said this thing to me Because he's had an amazing career

That just keeps growing and growing And he goes, I keep feeling like Every time I achieve something Someone's gonna grab me and take me Through a trap door and be like Now you're in or like Here's your card This is how we do it

This is how you do it when you have a number one record This is what happens when you win a Grammy All this stuff right And he said all this stuff you work and you work and you achieve this new level you think something's going to happen and you just the bubble burst you're like oh it's just about the work oh okay it's just about the songs it's just about how good the records are

and the performance and then all this stuff and there's all this hype and you have this moment you have this moment and poof oh there was nothing at the end of that tunnel it's just about what happens when you write it's weird you almost have to experience the mountain top a couple times you know to recognize that that it's uh that it's not a tangible thing. Even people who climb Mount Everest is cool, you get there, but you still have to quickly turn around or you die on the way down. I mean, like, you can only be there for a minute, and then you have to turn around, and you have to, you have to turn around quickly, and you have

to, like, move your way back down. And then when you get down to the bottom, you can go and start training for, like, the next year to maybe go for it. That's exciting. Training for it. But I think the idea is like you get up to the top and somebody's going to, you know, there's going to be a parade or even that parade. Like I imagine that. That's not very long either. It's not very long either. And also it's not very satisfying. Yeah.

You realize that, I mean, that's what I believe about writing and making work is that feeling compelled to do it. Like even right now, like I'm like, what is that? I'm going to go see you today. It's like, am I going to find that thing? Is anything going to happen? Is it going to be another day of almost or is something actually going to happen? and then when something happens you get so excited and you feel so alive but i think just existing in that process is uh the highest form of consciousness i've found do you know when you read a great

song uh i know when i have a moment i know when i have uh i don't i don't write a ton so i don't have a lot of i know when something uh feels exciting to me um which more and more i'm starting to give myself uh permission to say well if something feels exciting to me then it's it's a real thing. I'm trying to let go of what, you know, the mill of, is it going to work? Is this?

Is that, you know, the anatomy of something that, quote unquote, works is really just something we like. Right. I mean, we talked about this a little bit when we did the songwriter Hall of Fame thing last year, but your technique is so different.

Your math and your arrangements are just different than, you know, let's say the Swedes. Is that intentional? It's become... No, no. Max always calls me in... What does he call me

an unprofessional songwriter? In a sweet way. Or, you know, like one time Max told me why, like, he was comparing we're young and I want to get better and saying why both of them were incorrect. And so I didn't know that, but now I take pride in the niche.

Now I'm happy to be that if that, if that's the hole I fall into, I'm cool with it. I just, I never did, uh, I never did well with it. Like, like it, it, when I, when I find a song or an idea that, uh, is exciting to me, it's because it's exciting to me, not because of any other thing. And, and I've never worked well with people that stitch things together that way. But I have so much respect for it. It's just like, it's like I just don't have, not great, I'm not good there.

Yeah. Does it make you second guess yourself? No, that's the one nice thing about any kind of success. I feel a little more confident in things that I was always secretly confident, confident in. Yeah. Because I think that we all have that part of us. Like, you wouldn't write songs if there wasn't this tiny little voice that was like, I really think there's something here. Once again, no one starts this to make money.

And the fallacy of starting it to like get girls or guys or whatever is not really, like you do it because you have to do it. And you really believe that there's, you know, I think that's why someone song has so much self-hatred because you started this because you actually think that these songs that you are capable of writing are something the world should hear. That's a very tough thing to come to terms with. There's a lot of ego there. With the ego attached to songs, you know, especially when we're talking about the mountaintop and then songs kind of go away, if that's the metaphor, you know, I guess one of the themes that we've had in recent interviews have basically

been that legacy is stupid. You know, it's that in a way it's like, You know, it's not like... Does legacy exist in the modern world, though, with the amount of information that happens? I mean... Aren't we just sort of focus on moments at this point? If we were to ask people who are listening to this to sing me a melody

that was written by Mozart, sing me a melody that was written by Beethoven, sing me a melody that was written by, you know, Paul McCartney, let alone Miles Davis or Franz Liszt or like, you know, going backwards, or Bach, or something like that.

My assumption is that even some of the most astute listeners that we have can't really do all that. Yeah. I was even having a moment I was like... Not to belittle that.

I'm just saying that legacy has been stupid for a long time. It just took me getting older and realizing that, you know, you have... I don't know what the purpose is of any of it. I think in a way,

like the purpose of it is to make people feel in the moment really excited. but the idea of people talking about my success in the future is weird. I mean, you know, you could very well end up being some sort of Confederate monument and somebody, you know, you think you're achieving

some sort of thing, but eventually they just take you down. Or nobody remembers who you are so they don't mind. It's a very funny thing to think about just who's going to hear it, when they're going to hear it. I take a lot of comfort knowing it exists. for people to find. The music exists. I don't take comfort in being like,

oh, people are going to listen this forever. And I'll live forever through that. I take comfort in knowing that this like, you know, it's like a dime, you know, when they sift through diamonds. Yeah. And like those like big strainers. Yeah.

Like it's there. And if someone ever wants to find it, they can. So, you know, short of like the entire universe being erased, it does make me feel a little less freaked out about dying. Are you freaked out about dying? Not like any more than anyone, but it's there. I mean, I do think about my work as like, I back it up towards not being here anymore. Like there's certain things I want to do, certain songs I want to write.

If I get an idea, like we were talking earlier about this song, about how a person wouldn't talk to themselves the way they would talk to a friend. Like, that gives me stress if I actually have an idea and I want to write it and I haven't done it yet. Yeah. I mean, that's what makes you motivated as a writer. Like I crave those moments because that means that I have a purpose to go. Totally. Not just like, I think I've written songs and crafted through not being inspired, but those moments where you're actually inspired to write down that concept, that's exciting.

It's very exciting. But it's all crazy. It's fucking nuts. If you think about it, I think you could drive yourself crazy. What if I didn't go to the studio that day? What if I didn't drop my phone on the piano key that hit that note that led me to just have that melody? Like it's just, there's no rhyme or reason. Have you had a moment where you were like,

I don't really want to go to the studio. And then you went and it was like, oh my God, that's... Endless moments where I go to the studio and someone doesn't show up and then I'm left in the room with someone else and we just kind of noodle around and lead something crazy or anything good I've ever done. Any examples for those? Tons. I mean, when I did the track for Out of the Woods, which is a Taylor song that I'm really proud of,

there was some issue at a venue in our show was canceled that night and I didn't have my stuff. I left it on the bus so I only had these old samples on what was on my laptop and cut up that O-O thing and I only had like this one drum kit on there and I like it just all dumb little things when I made it I want to get better. I was in Malaysia and my MPC software literally glitched out and started going like da-da-da-da-da-da.

it was like and I kind of like sort of bribed my head to it like it's always something incredibly stupid um he kind of it puts in perspective how much power powerless yeah just power powerless i always think that literally every song i mean when i was doing fun and we did some nights we sort of like had this weird college show in phoenix and someone was like if you want to use one of the music rooms we went to the music room started like banging out the song like it's always some dumb thing where if that one college student wasn't like hey do you want to use our piano room what the fuck would that have not happened would then we are young have been a one hit wonder and we wouldn't have had a follow-up that wouldn't matter and then would i not have been able to done it it's it could drive you

fucking insane and paralyze you because what are you supposed to do how are you supposed to create those moments you can't speaking of going back to the legacy thing what you should do or what we should do is find out which exact room it was he wrote some nights send up plaque so they could put it on their wall because imagine every student walking into that room being like, holy shit, this is the room. Yeah, and then some student is going to see that and then

be like, think they want to write the opposite of that song and then that leads something. It's just everything is so wildly connected. But everything I've done that I've been proud of, something silly happened, I don't know, have you really had like, have you really had the like, let's go in and write this song

and you actually write that song? No. Isn't it always like weird cousin of that song. Absolutely. That meets like another weird cousin. They have like an insensual relationship and they birth like the right song. Sure. Sure.

Absolutely. I mean, it's amazing how many voice notes I have where you hear the crinkling of plastic because I'm picking up my dog's shit while I'm singing into my phone with my other hand and holding his leash, you know, while I'm like trying to sing this melody into my phone. Yeah, that shit crinkle sound leads to a drum sound probably. Yeah, exactly. You know, when you're in a band in L.A., there's so many bands in L.A. where they've spent 10 years in a band and they don't quit. They're just like, yo, we're going to make it someday. And I worry about those people because they're so loyal to each other that they're willing to not move on when they know something is broken. And they think that somehow they're going to either write the hit or someone's going to not. discover them.

And I tend to think that there's some exploration on certain projects. And you've been in a few bands that have all been successful on different levels. And there have been some time where you said that you were done with Steel Train,

that you're done with fun, and now you're in bleachers. When do you know when to sort of end a project to start a new one? And how do you facilitate that political nature in bands?

Well, politics aside, I think your body tells you. So literally, I think your body is like when I, your body just starts focusing on things. So like, when I started bleachers while I was in fun, on these like big arena tour,

theoretically everything should have been like really great. And I just would, without thinking about it, just like found myself going back to the hotel and writing songs every night. And, and I always wrote songs. but you know the difference between writing songs and writing a project. You can write a million, billion songs, but writing an album is a totally different experience.

You know, like, it's like... And I was like, oh, my God, I'm making an album. My body did it before I admit it to myself. Before I could deal with, how the fuck am I going to be in fun and have another album and what are people going to think? I don't want to have a side project. That's not me. Like, I don't want to be like some guy in a band

who looks like he's grabbing that success. It starts... Before I could even deal with all that shit, I was just making it out. So I think your body really, it's no different than like relationships. Like, I really believe in like following just like, what do you do? What are you writing? Like your life right now, like, what are you writing?

Sure, you're not a total hippie fuck off. You're not like not showing up to sessions and like digging a hole in your backyard looking for a song. But like in between life, what are you doing? What is just like naturally happening? Is your eye twitching? Are you writing your polka project? So that's A, I've always just sort of followed.

You know, even at the end of Steel Training, I got really excited about fun. I was like, kind of want to be here. But politically, it is weird. And Fun had a totally weird thing, you know, where... But that was a weird one because me, Andrew, Nate, had all worked so hard for so long. Nate was in the format. I was a steel train, Andrews, and Anatoly. You're not talking about people who did two years of weird touring.

You know, we were 26, 27, when that... thing took off, you're talking 10 years in for all of us of like building and building and building and so it happened and it happened quickly. It was weird. Everyone had a different reaction. And also songwriting became a part of that. We all started doing things with other people. That was also, to get back to the chip, that was motivating for me because when I was in fun, I had written songs for so long and had my own bands and done everything else. And then all of a sudden, like, oh, I'm the guitar player in this band with the

glasses or whatever. I'm this caricature that is and it didn't make me mad at people because I was like, I see that. I think about my favorite band, oh, there's that dude. I recognize his face. He can't be doing anything because he's not

singing it. And I noticed that. I won't use any names, but in this sort of segues, how I really got into writing. I always wanted to collaborate. And I always wanted to do things. and I was trying to figure out a publishing deal because we were young and become a hit. And so all of a sudden,

I'm sure you had this moment where you go from, I want to do this to everyone's like, well, now you can. Like, we're opening the door because we finally trust you. It doesn't make me mad, but it's just how it is. You know, I'm that way. My manager will call me and say, do you want to work with someone?

I'll be like, well, who are they? And if my manager says, they're just this person, I'll be like, okay, I'll look it up. But if he was like, oh, they did this song that you love, I'll be like, oh, great. it's just it's knowing someone or not so when we were young happened i had a shot um and i remember this this really motivated me so this person who wanted to sign all of us we uh he started setting up sessions and he set Nate who was a singer and fun up he set him up with Bruno Mars and Pink and he set

me up with two people that i don't even know if write songs anymore and i remember i had this moment this is the i don't have a lot of advice because i'm not super old yet or super accomplished but i always tell people. In that moment, I was like, I've got to find my people. Who see you as? Yeah, I need my people. Who see you is the frontman of your life. Of front and my life. And by the way, it's not about front and center because half my days are spent just helping other artists work on their vision. It's not about that. It's just, I was like, damn, I got to find my people. And I worked on it and I slowly did. But that was also part of that chip of like I wanted to define myself outside of that because

it felt odd to be in an ecosystem where I was having all the success but I felt like I couldn't do the things I wanted to do you really have to find your people and that ecosystem at the time with a lot of people we were working with on the business side I was kind of like hi I have this idea for another band I want to write songs too and everyone was like yeah yeah we'll get to you just you know

play the guitar and rock out on the stage I'll be like but I'm not to live. because I've been doing this for 10 years before all this shit happened. Before radio before number one songs, I got all these songs. So that's a big thing that I've taken with me is you don't want to have blinders.

Look around because there might be some dude or some girl to the left who you don't think is the one that's going to have the heart and the songs and they might actually got it. So that was also part of that chip that we were talking about of like oh I got to you know

not just get defined by this. the single to my I was in a band called Glacier Hiking and the single for Glacier Hiking was a song called Stay Positive which I took from the musical I'm recording right now so in 2009 the song

was from this musical and I remember saying my bandmate and to you know the producer I was like well let me play you the musical and they're like no no no no it's fine we get we get that you have a musical I know no I swear it's like a really modern like cool thing Stay in your lane.

Stay in your lane. And that song ended up becoming, you know, the song that we really were pushing for whatever moment we were pushing it. And, you know, it's eight years later right now. And I'm recording that musical for real and where, you know, all this stuff's really happening with it. And it's shocking just to see that this piece of music, you know, I was waving it to them. I was like, no, I'm telling you guys, no, this is real. And people are really liking it. Like, when I play for other people, they really enjoy this.

And they were like, not into it. They're just, you know. It's cool, man. Good luck with that. You're like, fuck, man. I have so many songs that have become massive hit songs that I waved in someone else's face before they had a reason. I mean, dude, stories, endless stories of, oh, Jack can't do that.

Oh, Jack's not a writer. Oh, he is, okay, well, Jack's not a producer. He's never produced a hit. Then you produce a hit. It's like, you just, I've been waving things in people's faces and you just, you just, it doesn't even, it used to piss me off. It doesn't. You just got to prove it.

because they just but but one thing it does do is it makes me recognize excitement if I'm in a room with someone and they're like I got this other thing I'm like please tell me about it because it's that same feeling when you're in a room with people and you're like but there's also this and they're like nah do the guitar part you know it's always something for a while it was do the guitar part and then it was okay he can write all right do do the top line and it's like but I think I can also produce and it's like no and then you get there and you always you always got to prove it

you always got to go take it and I think that that is a nice thing to remember well you produce music now that feels it feels like you're not really you're not very good at chasing trends I'm not good at it

you're really not I mean in the nicest way like you have all these like you can have the most current pop stars writing with you but there's something about your productions that feel

they're much more timeless they're much more like songs in a way we grew up with even if there's modern synths and stuff like that there's not like if it came across my desk it's over if I know it's a trend

it's cooked because I'm not out there you know there was a time I was not 16 I was like on the street at the Legion Hall New Jersey witnessing shit you know we're like 18 in New York City when like the Mercury Lounge

was happening like but at 33 if you're telling me that that traps happening it fucking happened already you know like so I've just sort of resigned to this thing of like I just want I think the best way that I can contribute to the world is just what I think is cool

because I'm I'm not interested in I don't know if we found out about it it's over right I want to incriminate you if I find out you're right I mean I went and why would you want to also it's like I also feel that way that was a big lesson too from the way I came up of like it's so tempting though

it's tempting because you know it'll research quote unquote better but I also I think it's also once again the chip when we are young happened and I started going into rooms there was so much energy to recreate that

and I was just like but that worked because it didn't sound like anything no one when that song was in the hands of the label so that's my first hit right it didn't sound like anything and no one earmarked it as a single. The only reason why that song became a single is because Jeff Basker who produced

that song, played the song for Kanye. Kanye took the song, him and Jayzie wrapped on it, kept the hook, put it on Watch the Throne, and then took it off Watch the Throne two weeks before. But during that time period, all of a sudden everyone working on fun was like, whoa, whoa, we thought we were signing this little indie band and we're going to make a cheap album. What the hell are these huge stars doing recording this album? We got something here. You know how that works in the industry. And then something it's earmarked as the next thing. But it wasn't because that song was like, no one was like, that's going to be a massive, massive hit.

Everything I've ever had, the next thing I did was brave with Sarah Borellis. It's just like noodled around and did that. And I sent it to my manager and he was on. It was like, this is like actually really good. But it didn't really sound. It was sort of like this like poppy piano anthem. And I've never had an experience.

Once again, I'll just talk about my own. inadequacy. I'm just not good at recreating stuff. But I also don't respond to it as a person because I think people are, I think people can tell. Right. And I'd rather have a song that shits out at 20 or 50 or whatever than one that goes further but doesn't, you know what's a game I like to play? Think about your favorite songs from the 90s. Check out their chart position. Blow your fucking mind. All the ones that are the number one songs in my head are really like number 65, but it's like the actual number one song that year, gone. But that other song, but that's what I'm chasing.

I'm chasing the big songs that are actually the good ones that hang out. Evergreens. Evergreens. Do you think that, I mean, you now have a number of hits. What do you think are the evergreens? I mean, I feel like you kind of have a few. But in your head, what do you think in 15 years? If it's fortunate enough, what are the songs that people are going to say like, man, that's an evergreen?

I don't know. I mean, there's the ones to me. Which ones are to you? I think one of the biggest evergreens are putting it is the Lord's on Greenlight. Yeah. The song means so much to me. I think it's like, I still don't get sick of it.

Yeah. And it wasn't like a crazy radio hit. But people like it so much. I don't know. I think out of the words, the Taylor song is like that. I think that I just look for those songs that actually kind of stick with people.

even just like field research you know not like m scores or if someone clicks off the radio here or there or whatever but like people come up between the street they're like I love that song I want to get better seems at that feeling

where it just feels like I just like shouted enough of my life and even like some nights I don't meet too many people who are like oh god if I hear that one again like people seem to like it which is essentially because that's a funny thing about our business right

the ability to have success and annoy people. Yeah. I don't want that, but it's so present in our business. And I believe that, because here's how I feel about the radio. I don't think it's going anywhere. And my whole fucking life, everyone's like the radio is going away. And they just keep being wrong. And I think streaming is a beautiful, beautiful thing. And it's the fucking 80s again in the music business.

You see it. Budgets are opening up. We're entering a new golden era. It's wonderful. We're no longer on this Hindenburg. Great. However, 30, 40 million songs, fantastic. You, me, kids in Sri Lanka, someone in Dallas, Texas. We need to be connected somehow.

We're connected by Trump. We hate him. We're connected by Game of Thrones because we love it. And then we're connected by a certain list of songs. Maybe this song we're connected by because if we fucking hear it one more time, we're going to rip our eyes out. And maybe this song we're connecting.

by because we love it, but we can't live. And I am full left corner of the sandbox type motherfucker usually. But even when I was like going to punk shows and Legion Halls, my existence was railing against goddamn Britney Spears and Insink. So that thing, it's sort of like Sprite, Image Nothing Thurts is Everything. Well, that's your image. It's like whether you are a vessel that rails against mainstream in that 10-song radio playlist, or you love it. And it's Michael Jackson and the world is new again, or it's Taylor, great, Kanye, Beyonce, Adele's good music, or it's utter garbage that makes you want to kill yourself. We have to fucking be connected by it. It can't go away. And so I always say that when I'm in label mediums.

Like, we're the gatekeepers. Is that going to be good or is it going to be bad? Yeah, how will people remember? And back to Lexi, but how will people remember this period? I love trying to freak out like ANR guys. That's the new thing I say. I say, when you're dead, I like to start conversations with When you're dead, if I'm in there and I got a special song and I'm like, I'd like you to really work on this. Not because I need to make more money,

not because I need to be more well-known, but because in that short playlist that you have the keys to, I think this one, this song about loss or real friendship or whatever it is, I think this one has the power to kind of matter a little bit more.

And then I say, when you're dead, right you know are they going to remember for this or that I like to plant that seed in both the Lord album

and in in both bleacher albums you're so it's so it's the lyrics are certainly in the verse is really small

and close and when you're talking about uniting a lot of people it's really interesting because I feel like they're so personal

and do you think that that helps getting an audience to become closer because they then end up feeling more connected because if you get you get Jack then like and I get Jack

then we're close or is it or is that a detriment you know I think it's probably both but I think that I mean that's why I love the mainstream so much is not because

and this is arguments I've had with writers a lot not because I think it's stupid but because when it's smart God it's amazing right when it's Obama it's the best feeling

but like okay you're a freak you're a total freak right you're like working on your musical and you do this show because you're a total freak of nature like you're not representative and I hope you take this a compliment I know you of like your average person hanging out on Instagram.

You're not like, it's weird that you are penning things that everyone knows. Right. But that's what's like so exciting is to say like, okay, if I'm this piece of shit over here, if anything, what do I have in common with everyone? That's the chorus to me. What do I have in common with everyone? Doesn't have to be the whole song because I'm not trying to, I'm not writing a jingle for everyone. So it's like, whether it's me or other artists, I say, you got the whole verse.

You can say whatever the fuck you want. You could talk about when masturbation loss is fun, your fucking lazy green day. You could talk about propaganda. Did you know I was nine, tried to fuck a friend of mine. He was eight, I turned 10, 14 years later, it happening. And you could say whatever you want. Bruce Springsteen, I want to change my clothes, my hair, my face. A writer came in and was like, I have a great line.

I want to change my clothes, my hair, my face. I'd be like, well, that's going to be a really hard song. cut to even if we're just dancing in the dark it's like yeah you that the chorus hook it's not a bad word literally fucking grabs you by the mouth and you're along for the ride and then that ride one song is an entire life so whether it's me that that you know i want to get better i'm talking about losing my mind from taking acid the death of my sister panic and anxiety disorder but hey i want to get better and that's and so i said When I wrote that song, I was like, I think I can squeeze this by people because everyone wants to get better.

Taylor out of the woods, talking about all this very personal stuff about a relationship falling apart, liking it to this snowmobile accident going into the hospital and seeing all the darkness and color in a relationship. But are we out of the woods? If you ask me, are we out of the woods yet? If my Uber driver turned around and just said, are we out of the woods yet, I would say, I would immediately know what he was talking about in my life. every song that I've ever Sarah was brave

is a very personal story about a friend coming out but I want to see you be brave if you look at me in the eye and said that to me right now I matter what the fuck if anyone said that to me if fucking Trump said that to me

it might matter and so I think that's the ultimate goal God how easy would it be to write songs that fly over people's head yeah I could do that right now and then I could just sit in my corner and be like you don't get it but when you've had that

connection with people it's incredible but I think I always say that versus go to town. It's the difference on some level of either being the artist or writing with the artist versus pitching songs too. I feel like when you're pitching a song, you have to be aware of the fact that... Do you pitch a lot? Of the songs that Sam would love my house and Dangerous Woman were all pitched. Dangerous Women seems so personal though. I mean, if you hear me playing it on acoustic guitar, it sounds like...

That doesn't maybe be lightning in a bottle because that seems like, as an outsider and a fan, that seems like the thing I had been waiting for her to say. Yeah. Like actually new moment. But when I was... Did you talk to her before? I thought it was for Carrie Underwood first. Well, I've talked to Carrie about it now.

So we're friends. It's cool. But like, I always thought she would be right for it, but I went to Nashville. and I didn't know anybody who knew Carrie, and I had this like chorus written out. And then I went back home, and I played it for Yoan, and we did a version of it.

And when we were done, we were like, you know, Alicia Keys was coming in the next day, so we were like, oh, maybe this is more for like Alicia or something like that. And we played it for my publisher who then was like, you know what, let's get a girl vocal on it, because that's going to help. And Was it you singing?

Yeah. So you were singing you make me feel like a dangerous woman? Well, that's part of the craziness of that. I just thought it was a really cool concept

and I thought it was a really dark melody over like those chords which felt really empowering. Like to me it felt like it was almost like a blues more of a blues record at first. You know what grabbed me about it

and I don't know if you intended this in any way? You know the song, Natural Woman? Is that kind of thing? Yes. So it doesn't sound anything like that in any way

but obviously the woman, dangerous woman, I thought it sounded like you could hear society like melting away over 40 years since that song came out of like, you make you feel like a natural woman

and you feel like a dangerous woman, it felt like oddly like this like political time capsule. It's weird you say that because the original version of it before, because I have all the voice memos and the first voice memo I have of it is me driving and being like,

oh, this would be cool if there was some sort of modern version of that. it was like, you know, like, something about you makes me want to be that kind of woman. That was like the very first version. And it was like, well, that kind of sucks. And like, how do you like edit that into something? Words like that, this. Just.

Yeah, it's like, well, what? Right. I, that's the only, I don't want to. I would do anything for love, but I won't do that. Like that, I want something just like this. Yeah. I always, I, not, no shade of anyone, but whenever I hear that song, I go, just like what? Tell me.

But that's a thing. But I want to know. Like, if you said, like, I want something just like, like, like, I want love just like pain. I want pain just like food. Just like, like, tell me because I'm listening to your song and I got to listen to it every day at the airport and the Uber and the blah. I got to hear it everywhere. So just tell me what you want. It's like being in a bad relationship

It's like when you're with someone That's when the fucking radio drives me crazy It's like communicate with me I don't have to love your production I don't have to love your drum sounds But fucking tell me something That's why I love that Daniel's Roman song When I would hear it to be like

I understand exactly what you're saying Thank you And now I can choose if I want to stream that song 100 million times Or never listening to it But songs and maybe I'm overthinking this Songs like I want something just like this I'm like you've got to tell me how you feel

or else I can't go on. But that's the difference of a lot of the sessions are... You didn't write that song, did you? No, I didn't. But a lot of the... If I did, that'd be great. That would be amazing. But I also, I didn't, I knew you didn't because you're...

I knew you wouldn't say that. But there's, there are a lot of, a lot of co-writers that have are immigrants. And so they speak, they want to write songs that communicate, not that there were immigrants on that particular song, but they want to speak to the world. And a lot of that world doesn't speak. English. Yeah.

And so they like the sound of the word and they like the broad strokes vibes. But sometimes you get the most emotion out of that. Sometimes when you, because I work a lot of people that are not from here too. Yeah. Or English as a second language.

And sometimes they just, a person who has less words will just say it in a way where you're like, whoa. It's the same reason why I write on piano, I'm not guitar. I'm better at guitar. So I'm like, oh, these are dumb chords. You know, I'm on piano, I'm just like,

that's beautiful. You know, so sometimes I'm writing with someone who has English as a second language, they'll just be like, they'll be like, I want love. And you're like, ah! Yeah. That's gorgeous. Yeah, right.

It's a, John song. But I, that's, I fuck with that all the time. Just a comment. One of the things that I really like about, you know, the, you were able to release both the Lord album and the Bleacher's album, I believe, the same week. Yeah, like two weeks apart. Two weeks apart. Which is totally unintentional.

I cannot believe it worked out that way. So awesome. And one of the things that's really cool about it is. that you guys both wrote on each other's albums. Yeah. Well, I think that's really cool. Even though I think she only wrote on one song, but I think like...

But she was like so, I mean... How cool is that, though? She was very helpful with just opinions. Yeah. Because you know when you get... Sometimes you're like, like, I'm in a phase right now where I'm just like free and I'm trying things

and I'm doing this, I'm finishing that, I'm just noodling around. But then when I was making the Lord album and the Bleacher's album, that was like 18 months of like, this is the only thing I'm doing. And it's every day. is chipping, you know how it is, sometimes you write these songs

or work with an artist or your own songs, and it's like, it comes out and you're like, put a helmet on that thing, that is done. Back up the fucking drive right now. And sometimes you're just like chipping away at a fucking piece of stone looking for this album in the song forever. And you know it's in there.

There's no question. That was the Lord of the Bleacher's album. There was never a question that it was in there. It was, those were just two records that had to work like that. But I had been in the hole for so long that when they came out, I had this feeling of relief that it was real, literally. You know, because I had done so much,

those two albums were the only thing I was doing, and no one had heard them for so long. And I'd go out and play shows and I play old music. People say, what are you working on? Blah, blah, blah. And I don't like that. I like when things come out quick. Are you nervous when your songs come out?

No, I get relieved, mostly relieved. I mean, I don't feel, I'd have trouble admitting this a couple years ago. I'm trying to admit it now, which is that when a song comes, out, I have an expectation for what is supposed to happen for it. And I don't mean that in a gross way. I mean that in an emotional way. I think to myself, okay, this is not the kind of song that I want to be a huge radio song. This is the kind of song that I want for people to put in their back pocket and to be a secret for 100,000 people across the world. And just, it sounds like a lot, but just,

you know, or 10,000 people across the world or five people across the world, whatever it is. And then sometimes I write songs and I think, I really truly want the whole world to hear this. Not because of any of the gross reasons, but I really think I did a good job. Yeah. And I really, and it's format for it. Because people will, you, there's a certain part where when you start writing in a way knowing your audience and

knowing humanity, and you're like, no, this would really entertain you. If you give it a shot, I promise you, you'll really enjoy this. Yeah, some of these lyrics. I'm a fairly good curator at these things. Like, this one, you'd really have a good time. Ego is for, that, ego is for, for,

you know, I had more ego when I had less going on because I had a bigger chip. Now it's not ego. Now I'm not like, you got to hear my shit, blah, blah, blah. I'm just like, no, no, no. I know. This is a great one. And I hope that the powers that be open the gates, because this will, this will be good for the community. There's a little bit of the burden of success in that way is that you feel like, you know, it's like your obligation to entertain people. And also like the fans tend to always feel a certain level of success becomes selling out. So you're like having to constantly battle like,

no, no, no, this is, it's really just a song you should enjoy. Just take it for what it is and not. Or like there's no, I don't know. I mean, I feel this way about press a lot. But I feel that what if it's exactly what it is? And I understand why, and when you do a lot of things, I think if you're, I'm a top liner, this is what I do. good night.

It's very easy for people to be like, that person's a great top lender. I make track. This is what I do. Bye. I put out records. I'm this person. I only write books.

I think it's, if you're very clear, just like Trump's campaign, you know, it's like Steve Vanden's whole point. Like, if you stay on narrative, you're going to get the idiots. You know,

and so I think the second you start doing a lot of things, I'm sure you've seen this within the industry, people start questioning. Like, why are you doing that? Why are you doing that? And I just keep trying to say, well, it's just what it is. It's just what I told you it is. I really think I can do this.

All right. I'm going to list five people. Okay. And just tell me what comes off the top of your head. Okay. Rachel Antonoff. My biggest inspiration. The ultimate hit predictor.

Truly. Really? My sister and my girlfriend are the two people that I care most. about their opinion about music. They're like babies. They don't care. All of us in this room, it's like, when you play me a song,

it's like, I'm going to tell you who I am and my 14-word reaction to this song. You know, it's like, I mean, the drums are old dated, but yeah, it's a good belly. You know, like, my girlfriend says that they're just like, they like it or they fucking don't. So funny.

Babies. I sent a song to an artist last week, and I told my wife about it, and she goes, let me guess. like it, right? And I was like, you know, I was like, well, he doesn't respond and she goes, babe,

this song's just not very good. Like, she was trying to get me not to send it. I was like, I kind of like it. And she's like, telling you. And she's the same thing. She's no skinning the game. Yeah. She just likes it or she doesn't. It's a beautiful reaction. So funny. Nate Ruse.

Nate Ruse, we had our break together. That's, you know, never that was one thing, Lear Cohen said to me, when we were young was happening. He's a very intimidating person. He's very tall. He looked at me and he said,

this will never happen again. I was like, what do you mean? And he was like, not success. He's like, I'm sure you're going to have a great career, but you never get a break again. Right. And so there's memories, me, Nate, and Andrew shared that

I'll never... We flew first class for the first time and got drunk and shouted new money. Like, Like, you're idiots, you know. We're idiots. We were on, you know, we heard our shit on the radio for the first time. You can't go back to that.

Lord. Lord. I think Ella is... She's our Bjork. She's our Cape Bush. She's the future. Not because she's young. Because she doesn't seem young.

Her age is just like this, like, weird detail. Ella's age is like, if, like, right now you were like, check this out and take your shirt off and you had like a primus backplate. tattoo and I'd be like, what? I'm always like, you're 20? Like, but you're teaching me so much. Deeply important artist. And from a very selfish point of view, it just believes in me in a very serious way.

And I'm sure you have people like this in your life. Maybe because, maybe for a good family relationships or whatever, the best comes out of me when someone actually believes in me. she pushed me a lot for her own record which is funny because probably should have been vice versa Lena Dono the person who well as I said before the other

true clear-headed song person who can really understand music but an insane inspiration I think that when we got together is when I started to realize I was like oh I can really set some pretty crazy goals. She doesn't have any, there's no door or wall between her and an idea. Are you guys going to do projects together? I don't know. I don't know. It's funny because I've never really wanted to.

What I love more than anything is lying in bed with her. She's writing, I'm listening to mixes. and I feel like a lot of art is coming from this tiny space you know that's people have different ways a lot of people are like how do you guys do it it's like you're always traveling ever together

and it's like it to be supported in art like that is an expression of love that's pretty absurd priceless yeah what's next for you specifically or like sure I don't know

it's just a question what are you working on is it a real question yeah are you excited about? Oh, man. You're excited about your theater. Yeah, I think the wrong.

Oh, your play, not your theater. For me, it's like, well, it is what it is. I don't know what, you know, when I was 18, 17, I went to this thing at Northwestern. I remember them saying, what's a play. And everyone's like, oh, well, I know what a play is. And then it's almost, it's impossible to answer. I don't know. It's when people go on stage and read lines.

Well, what if it's, you know, what if it's, there are no lines? is a musical a play is the theater of politics a play what is it if it's improvised is it is it a play does it have to be you know does it need people for it to be a play you know

can you just do it from lights and tell a story from something else the idea that there is no real answer to that and for me the wrong man it's like it's a concept album that can be a feature length, that can be a musical, that can be a few things. And I hope people really enjoy it.

But there's no, what I've, what I struggled with when I got my first record deal is that there were aisles and stores. And I don't think I fit very well in an aisle. You know, I was, iTunes was brand new. And they put, what, what was your music called them? Was it an alternative? Like, just, what, what aisle did you get pushed into? I was, I was, I was under alternative. It was a, I was a hilarious genre because it's literally like, they're like, okay, Totally. And I was, you know, I was opening for Jurassic 5 a couple times, like, more like for like a few weeks kind of thing. And I remember playing with like, you know, random bands like Ozo Motley and stuff like that. And then I was, and then they put me as. So like just sort of left of center music that people just like like music. Like bands that have a random trumpet player or like.

Sure. And now it, now it's like, now it would, it has a better shot. because it was not a, it just wasn't, it's just not a genre. Yeah. Do you feel like we're genreless now? I think we're close, we're getting closer to it every day. I think on one level,

people listen to music very differently. Now, they literally listen differently. They listen with headphones. Yeah. Which I love. Which is a different, but it's a different way to experience music and in mass we're listening to music differently

because people aren't driving as much. There's a whole generation of people who aren't driving as much. And even if you drive... Yeah, you don't drive. And if I'm even in a car, I'm usually in headphones in a car. Yeah, it's...

So if you're listening to music differently, then you should record it differently on some level. You should write it differently on some level, in my opinion. Well, of course. I mean, that's mono versus stereo. There's a reason for that. Yeah. And I'm sure at the time, there was like, you know, your Phil Specter, monopurist,

or like, this is absurd. Right. And I'm trying to... I'm trying to figure out what the balance is as far as... I like what I'm doing in my career with the wrong man. That's super exciting because I think that's different. And I like the idea that I walk into a room and try to facilitate my co-writer's best song. I like walking into a room and being like, what kind of song do you need

and let's write the best song you have? Are you in a place where you're enjoying artists more or just writing more without artists? They're just different processes. Do you have a preference? Because some people, it's like sometimes you know, like, I don't know. I have a better shot at getting song's place, I think, when I'm with an artist.

I guess it depends on who the artist is. Yeah. But I think when, I think the fewer writers you have in a room, the better shot, let me phrase it like this. When you have, if you add writers to a session, you add third, fourth, fifth, the writer, I don't think that increases your odds of having a hit.

I think it does the opposite. I think... I've never functioned in camps well. Right. Well, but either you do it because it's just a blast, and you're like, okay, so today's just fun. And if we nail something because 11 of us are yelling in a room, that's fun. But on some level, I like that I go into a room with one person

and we struggle through a song, but it doesn't sound like... It won't have the homogene that you get from having too many opinions. It won't turn vanilla because when you have five people who all have to agree on a song on each lyric and each melody it's going to get more and more vanilla the more opinions

you get. So I like the vulnerability of fewer writers and you know so I think that's been part of what I've been trying to do is to find people I feel most vulnerable that I can be vulnerable with as a red guy

right? Yeah Yohan and I've done a lot of like I mean we've had probably 20, 30 decent size cuts together. What's your favorite song you've written? What's my favorite song? Yeah, like what's the one that when you're dead? Yeah.

What's the one that they play at your funeral? Or just so far. To be honest, I'm really excited that I recorded the wrong man. I feel like if I die on my way home, which I hope doesn't happen, because it's going to be a weird interview if it does. That's the one that we should listen to.

it does whatever state it's in and however you hear it listen to it I think you'll really get you'll get my it's not only has it span 12 years of writing

so some of the songs are that old some of them are that new but they it gets my sense of humor it gets my politics it gets my you know it shows my

um it it's really doesn't seem like I'm the character. It seems like there is a character in it. I'm just proud of it. To me I think that that exemplifies everything I've worked for as a song crafter.

To me that feels like an opus. Well that's what I love about songwriter so much is I've never read a songwriter who's just like, I just wrote that song. I feel like every song is, you just take out a new funnel and you're like, I want to put it all in, have the best song ever. And then you do that. And then you put

that funnel into a funnel it's like it's such there there's nothing that i don't know don't you feel that way like they're just everything is it quite intentionally the best song that you've got in you yeah i think so i well certainly at the moment i mean i like that i can point to songs and they they kind of exemplify a moment in my life what's the song that when you die you're like oh yeah that's the song that i should be remembered for um it can be a body of work because i mean i threw that out a steel train song called Dakota. I think it's like a very... Wow.

Perfect song. Now they have some perspective on it. But it made up place called Dakota. And it's like little stories about horrible things. And in Dakota, one day you'll wake up unchanged. There's the hook.

But I was really bad at hooks when I was in that band. Like I didn't... I was very into complicating things. It's such a... It's crazy how hard it is. Still, every day, yesterday. I worked on something.

I just listened to it. And I was like, like, stop it. Stop. complicating it. It's crazy how hard it is when you're in there to just say it. It's like the ESL thing or it's like being in therapy. It's like just saying it. It's so easy, especially as like a Jew to like have a million words and say this and say

that but to like just say it like and that's always the hook when you like fully are broken and you just say something. I think that's where when you're having a good co-writer and someone that you love writing with. That's what I was saying. Like someone that I can trust being vulnerable with, just one on one. that's where I'm going to be like, that's where I'm going to be the best writer is when I can, where I can go and just say it and not feel really weird about it.

Yeah, no one's going to be like, ugh. Like, I mean, I can come in with a song called Dangerous Women on acoustic guitar, and Yon's going to be like, immediately jumps to the piano. It's like, all right, let's make it happen. Well, that's my favorite. We've done that so many of records. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the greatest contribution.

Yeah, sure. What's your, what, what, what pisses you off the most about what we do? What we do? Yeah, like the industry and just like, like, what do you think is like fucking like... The chasing the trends thing is really hard for me. Because you feel like it's just... Well, I just don't know if I... I don't know if it's not...

I don't really care, like irrelevant of me. You know, I think that... I think a lot of great songs get passed up. Like, there's no woman right now who sounds like, you know, like Jewel or Cheryl Crowe or or Alanis Morissette or anything like that in pop music and there's no you know there are very few

there are very few bands right now that really get to play in the pop music world and and the idea of the chop vocal basically being the dub step of 2017 you know if the

the drop in quotes was last year's thing you know that that idea of writing where you basically just say I don't know put a drop in there or the minute you hear somebody throw in that chop and you're like oh it just sounds

so relevant yeah and it's like you have this short window of pitching this song and hoping someone cuts it it's just like it makes me sad because like I'm not no one ever wrote a song and thought I hope this is forgotten next year yeah but

well because that's what I essentially the art of songwriting to me and to everyone I know is essentially like which goes back to how we started talking at the beginning of this about the absurdity of legacy but essentially it's like

to quote you if I die on the way home today check this out yeah if I die on the way of today check out my new EP but seriously check this out because it's more it's the closest I can get

to you know putting my heart and soul into something you can hear I want you to hear the sweat that it took and the months it took per song. I want people to

listen to something and have it seem so simple and have no idea how difficult that process was. But like, you can, you just know it. You just knowing people. When I hear about some guy,

like when you hear about Lynn Manuel you see him freestyle or something, you're like, is that really a freestyle? You see like those M&N, them freestyles. You're like, is that really a freestyle? Like, are they really that genius? And maybe there are people who are that genius. I assume they are. It's like a magic trick to me.

Well, I've never, I'm so not a freestyle type. Like, everything takes me so long and Right. It's the total magic trick to me. And editing. And editing. Yeah, and what if you took all that out? And what if that was, and what if that was it? And what if

it was just that? Yeah. Well, thank you for doing this. I like that you are constantly wearing your heart on your sleeve in social media, in your music, and you represent songwriters and artists and producers really well. And to have somebody that when you know that you have a song come out, it's like when you see a movie in it and it's that actor that you really like. It's exciting because you know that it's going to be something that's unexpected,

and you know it's going to be something that isn't going to be cookie cutter and it won't be chasing trends and it'll be you. Well, that's my new goal now is don't let Ross down. Exactly. All right, well, I'll be judging you. So thank you again. Thanks for having me. Thanks for listening to this episode of And The Writer is.

If you want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed, be sure to check out our Spotify playlist or visit our website and The Writer. is.com. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe to us on iTunes. You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter. And The Writer Is is produced by Joe London, edited by Miles Bergsmah, and published by Big Deal Music. A special thanks to David Silverstein from Mega House Music and Michael White. Until next time, this is Ross Golan.