And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 24: Julia Michaels

Episode Date: October 3, 2017

This week's songwriter is defining the game as we know it and she's only 23! She's currently still celebrating the release of her debut mini album "Nervous System." The album's first single "Issues," has gone 6x Platinum worldwide! Moreover, she's regularly collaborating with some of pop music's biggest names, having co-written Justin Bieber's smash hit "Sorry," Selena Gomez's "Good For You," and Nick Jonas' "Close feat. Tove Lo". Quite a resume from one of the industry's best and brightest. And The Writer Is...Julia Michaels! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey guys, this is, and the writer is, and I'm your host, Ross Golan. I've written with hundreds of artists and writers over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life, the industry, politics, composition, whatever. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs, and most importantly, who the people are who write the songs. I'm producing this with the Great Joe London, big deal music publishing and mega house music management if you want to listen to the songs we

discuss in this podcast follow us on our socials find out about special events or buy some of our merchandise go to our website www. www.andthe writer is.com oh and if you enjoy this podcast please rate us on iTunes or whatever your preferred podcast listening site is we really appreciate that effort this week's guest is julia michael She not only has written hits for probably the biggest pop stars in the world and the defining ones at that, but as an artist,

she recently had her song Issues go six times platinum worldwide. She also released her mini album Nervous System this summer, which was critically acclaimed, and it included her other single, Uh-huh, which also went top 40. I don't think there are a lot of notes

that I need to clarify for this one, so let's just get straight into it. it. Here is, and the writer is, featuring Julia Michaels. Welcome to And The Writer is. I am your host, Ross Golin. This week's writer-artist may be the most influential topliner of the past three years and is now a platinum-selling artist. At only 16, she burst onto the writing scene and within a few years became the voice behind some of the greatest artists of multiple generations, including Selena Gomez, Britney Spears, and Gwen Stefani as well as

Justin Bieber, Nick Jonas, and Lincoln Park. I've described your craft as the closest thing our community has to Picasso. From Santa Clarita, California, by way of Davenport, Iowa, this writer is compassionate, honest, and my friend. And the writer

is my vote for best new artist, Julia Michaels. Hello. Hi. That was a nice introduction. You know what I mean? How often do you get to say that stuff to people? That's awesome. So you were born?

I was born in Davenport, Iowa. Okay. Okay. Uh-huh. I moved to California when I was like three or four. Do you remember Iowa at all? Yeah, I actually go back every couple months because my mom still lives there and all my family lives there. She moved back when I was 16, so I go back as much as I can. Do you stay there? Do you like go for like two?

Because, like, I go home, I go home for, like, two days now or three days, like, at the most. I used to go for, like, ten days at a time and think, like, this is great, because my mom can, you know, cook food for me. Right. And then I don't have to think about life and stuff like that. And maybe that's, maybe I should still do that. My mom makes the most kick-ass grilled cheese sandwich, and I pretty much go home for that. Did she use American cheese? She uses, like, the shittiest cheese you could find, but it's,

It's just so good. Do you cook? I don't cook. I bake, though. Yeah. I mean, I guess I know the difference, but what is the difference? I'll tell you, Ross. Okay.

So I'm a very anxious person, and I find that structure helps me feel more calm. Cooking is a lot of spontaneity. It's like a dash of this and a sprinkle of that and, you know, like making it. and baking is all math. It's all laid out properly. And if you copy the ingredients and the instructions to a T, you'll always get a perfect result. And so, like, the perfectionist and, like, the anxious person in me loves to bake.

When did you figure that out? When I was around 16 is when I started to realize that I had anxiety. and what it was. I literally thought I was dying every 20 minutes. Like when you were 16 and just started happening? Yeah, I think once I started... I was homeschooled.

I think it was once I started writing professionally, the pressure that I put on myself was so overwhelming that I just started getting anxiety and I had no idea what it was. I was at the doctors all the time. Where did it come from? Like, I mean, I get the pressure, but like, is it,

does it something that's genetic? Or, like, where did the pressure come from? Who was telling you? I think I'm really hard on myself. And I think, uh, I think I just put it on myself. Did you play an instrument before? Or did you sing, obviously you did growing up because, you know, just start at 16 out of nowhere.

I started writing poetry when I was a kid. I even won like a fourth grade writing contest for like a poem I had written. What was it called? I think it was called something like your love, even though I had no idea what the hell I was talking about when you're in fourth grade. So I started with poetry and then my mom, my mom got me a piano. We were really broke growing up and one day my mom was driving me to school. I went to a homeschooling program. and there was this baby grand Cheyenne Kimball

on the street that someone was selling and my mom pulled over and I could play a little bit I could play by ear and she knocked on the door, the guy came out and she's like I would love to take this from you I don't have the money right now but I can come back in like

in like a day and bring it and you know pay for it she was like here take take my wedding ring it's like my parents have been divorced for

years so she was like no seriously take it and she's like take this as collateral I'll be back and we just never went back because we couldn't afford it

but we took the piano and so your mom traded your dad's wedding ring for your first piano that turned out to be a good deal how soon um from when you got the piano did you start making songs almost instantly i would i had books of poetry that i would just flip through and

and i know i know pretty much three chords so you know just enough to get my ideas down and i would just kind of take my favorite poems and play those chords and try and find melodies that would work for them. Did someone teach you how to write poetry? No. It just was like a thing. You just started doing it. Yeah.

I just wanted, I loved finding rhymes that worked with others that weren't like moon and June, that were just different. And I love just putting words together. I think because I spent so much time alone, I didn't really have friends growing up. up. Because of the homeschooling? Because of homeschooling because I'm just naturally kind of an introverted person, which you wouldn't know because you've known me for years. You know, and a lot of the times with new people, I'm really observant and kind of quiet. And then once you get to know me, I'm like, ah!

Why were you homeschooled? I was homeschooled because my mom tried to get me to do acting when I was a kid. Is that why you moved to California? I moved to California. My dad did security at Warner Brothers. My dad actually moved here because he wanted to be an actor. And my mom and my dad weren't married. And my dad was like, I was living in Iowa at the time with my mom.

And my dad was like, I want to see my kid. Like, come out here, please, like move here. And my mom was like, I'm not moving unless you marry me. And he was like, okay. And so they got married. we moved here and then they got divorced like three years later and we just stayed

so that makes sense did you ever try the acting thing I did it wasn't something that my it wasn't really weird like you know what's funny my mom pushed me to do a lot of things when I was a kid she pushed me to do dancing and she pushed me to do acting

she never pushed me to sing because my sister sang in the family. And she never pushed me to write because I don't think my mom knew how that world worked. So she never pushed me on it. And I think the rebellious kid in me was like, I'm going to be a songwriter because you don't know how this works.

And then I started singing my own demos and then it just kind of became something that I just fell in love with. Your sister has had, you know, she's a successful writer, artist in her own right, you know, when you're younger and you're are you learning from her?

Are you watching her? Oh, all the time. I don't feel like musically you guys sound the same. No, we are so different. Did you purposefully write music that was different from her? Or is it just, these are just two different humans. They just happen to be related.

Yeah, no, we are just completely different people. We grew up in the same house, but we are so different. I actually used to write songs for her to sing when I was younger. I would be like, okay, here, sing this. And I'd play it and have her sing the songs. So did she ever record them? No, it's just something that we did for fun.

When you were young, like how young were you when you were doing that? Like 12 or 13, maybe. And did your parents recognize that the songs were pretty good? Or was it sort of a thing where it's like, oh. I would be like, mom, I wrote this song. She'd be like, that's nice, honey. Do you ever go back and listen to them? Do you have recordings of any?

No, absolutely not. When did you start doing, because you were saying you started doing demos, were you demoing other people's songs or you know, you were writing and demoing or both? Yeah, so my sister used to do demos around the city. And that's kind of how I got into a lot of the studios and at a really young age, she would sing and I would just watch her sing.

And I just found it so fascinating. I was always her biggest fan when I was growing up. And then as I got older, and I really wanted to have music be what I do, it's not that easy when you're first starting out and you have to make a living. So I started doing demos just around the city with different people.

And that's really how I, I started meeting people. I met Lindy Robbins through a demo that I had done for her and Ian Kirkpatrick, which is so crazy because... So who heard you and it's like, yo, you got to do this. I'm going to go and do this demo. I mean, somebody heard you and it's like, hey, hey, that girl can sing. A lot of it was just kind of word of mouth.

I did a lot of demos when I was writing with Jolene Bell as a kid. And then I did a lot of stuff for... Explain who that is. Okay. So Jolene Bell is a songwriter. She does a lot of stuff for, like, Nickelodeon and, like, commercial promos and library music and stuff like that. So I met her through doing a demo.

And actually, no, I met her because my sister did a demo. And my mom at the time, I was like, Mom, don't make me sing for her. Don't make me do it, please. And of course the first thing she says when we walk in is, Honey, you should sing for her. And I'm like, no! So I sang on the piano. I sang a Juliette Sims cover

because I was very into her when I was 15. And she was like, we should write sometime. And I was like, okay, sure. So one day I was going to go meet my friend at the mall. And my mom picks me up. She's like, you're not going to the mall. we're going you're going to go right and I was like what okay let me call Allison and tell her I'm not going to come because she's waiting for me Allison's at their mom right now so um so yeah

we and then we started doing library music which is you know songs for the backgrounds of yeah um and I we started that when I was 16 and then when I was 17 we did a theme song for a Disney show called Austin and Allie. And that's kind of when it all started. But in the midst of that, I was still doing demos and stuff. And so Jolene and Lindy were really good friends. And Lindy asked her if I could sing and if I could write. And Jeline was like, yes, I wouldn't have invested my time into her if I didn't think that she could do this. And so I met Ian. It was a song that they had me demo. I hadn't met Lindy yet, but I met Ian, did this song. And then I did another demo for Lindy,

and then she was like, we should write. And I think, like, the first five songs that we did together all got placed, like, right off the bat. Wow. We didn't miss moving on. I think that was our second session for Fifth Harmony. We did a song of Fire Star Starter for Demi. We did Slow Down and Undercover,

which was on Selena Star Dance, Stars Dance album. Like, we just, like, had something. really special, really quick together. Did you realize how unusual that is at the time? Or was it sort of like, oh, no, this makes sense? Well, it was my first real look at success. So I didn't really know what it was, how it worked. And Lindy would always tell me, like, this never happens.

Right, yeah, yeah. This never happens. Right. I'm like, well, awesome. When, so I guess the Fifth Harmony song was the first, real single. Yeah. Did you get to hear it on the radio? Oh my gosh. So I remember they were going to perform it on Kiss FM. They were going to do an acoustic version of the song live on Kiss. And so someone told me what time it was going to come on first time. So I was driving around in my

Ford Escape, just waiting for it to happen. And then the minute it came on, I had to had to pull over because I was just crying. You know, you get 100 nos before you get a yes. And then when you hear that yes on the radio, it's like, it's just the most surreal and overwhelming feeling. I still cry every single time I hear a new song of mine that I've written on the radio or song now. I hope it's not every time to hear a song of yours because you'd be like, you'd be sitting in

your car the whole time. It's awful. It's always the first time. I just tried to get to CBS. I can't because every song I hear. It's true though. Always, the first time I hear it, it's like, it just kills me. Did you meet the artist?

Like, were you meeting Fifth Harmony and Demi and Selena? Because I guess you're about the same age as all of them. So, I mean, were you making friends? Were you friends with them? No, I didn't meet them until after the fact. I met Selena the day that we recorded Slowdown. And then we didn't speak until we were working on revival. Wow.

Which was, what, two years ago now? Yeah. I had written a song called Nobody. And she loved the song and wanted to make it her own. So she had me and a co-writer, Shane Steve. even come in and rework it with her. And I shot down and I hadn't seen her in so long. It had to be about four years maybe.

And she was like, I feel like we're going through the same things because you are writing literally everything that I feel. And it's just bizarre. And I'm like, it's very possible. Are you in like a super fucked up relationship? And we just bonded over that really quick. And yeah, and then we. did i we did eight songs together on revival and it was a magical moment it's nice when when in that

did you meet um i guess the order of things you before you get to revival yeah you meet you you meet justin well even before i was going to say before that you meet your publisher oh oh oh you meet your manager oh right yes so like where do how do you get from like okay I've got these cuts. Now all of a sudden, I'm teaming up with professional people who are going to help. At some point,

your mom isn't the one who's making the call, saying, you've got to hear. Julie, someone else starts making that call. Lindy was like, you need a manager. You need someone that's going to say no on your behalf, if you're too scared too. And someone that's there for you, looking out for you.

So she was like, I'm with AAM. you should meet Becca Tishker and I was like okay cool so we met at a restaurant called sweet butter and I was wearing a an Iowa Hawkeye sweatshirt and you could take the girl out of Iowa but you can take Iowa out of the girl hello always and so I sit down she was like is that a Hawkeye's sweater? And I was like, yeah. She was like, I'm from Dubuque, Iowa. And I was like, I'm from Davenport, which are literally neighboring towns. I was like, this is so random and weird. And we just hit it off so quickly. And I was just like, where's the pen? The only two women from Iowa in the music business? Actually, you probably know like 15 and I just

like belittled Iowa. And only one other. I only know one other guy from Iowa. Who? Jason Reeves from Iowa. So, so small. So you go, you guys meet at that, and then... Yeah, and then I was just like, I'm obsessed with you. Yeah.

I want to work with you all the time. Yeah. So far, so good. So far, so good. She's been with me for six years. How do you, how do you meet Justin? Justin? So I had been working with the same people.

All the time. Who were Lindy? Lindy, Jason, Eragon, Eiffigan, Ian Kirkpatrick, Sean Douglas, Sam Martin. That whole crew, we used to call ourselves, we used to have a thing called the banana camp that we would put together every year. And we would go to Lake Arrowhead, and we would just write songs for a week and then leave. But those were my main collaborators for a really long time, and I'm such a creature of habit.

Like, if it's going really well and it's not broken, why fix it? Well, me, each one of those writers has had like worldwide major, major songs. Like, it's not like, it's not like you're collaborated. Some people get stuck in their their first writing teams

where it's like most of L.A. and New York or anywhere, you know, their first writing teams aren't comprised of like, you know, comprised, composed, of, you know, five, five writers who each have you know, just massive amounts of sales and like radio play and stuff

and like you're joining in from there. So I could see why you'd get I'm not going to leave like the nicest crew of humans that are super talented and I learn a lot from. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I mean,

they taught me so much. I'm so grateful for them. Especially Lindy. I mean, I wouldn't be here without her. So one day I was like you know I feel kind of stuck I'm feeling a little uninspired

maybe I should try new people just for a week and if it's terrible I have my crew and I'm cool I'm good with it so Alyssa Feldman was my day to day at AAM at the time and Alyssa and Katie Vinton at Warner Chapel

put Justin and I together during that week with a producer named Felix Snow. And I was still a pretty nervous wreck when it came to riding with new people. So I walk in the studio. Justin has on full makeup, platinum blonde hair,

this parachute suit and these, you know, like five-inch boots, just living his life. Fabulous. Just so fabulous And he's like We should do something like 90s in vogue

And I was like Let's not Maybe And um I'm gonna go bake That day was honestly So insane So

Okay before we started writing Because of course I was like Too nervous I was like should we go eat something maybe Just to You know Get to know each other maybe a little bit So I have no concept of temperature.

I wear sweaters in the summer and shorts in the winter. And I was wearing a full-on winter coat. And Justin was like, why are you wearing a winter coat in 90-degree weather? And I did this kind of motion with my arms where I just kind of threw my hands up. And I was like, eh, you know, this is what I do. And this crazy woman, kitty corner from us, just across the street, thought that I was looking at her and was like, what? And it was insane. So we're walking.

We hear someone talking behind us. And she comes up to us and she looks at Justin. She goes, looks like your little girlfriend here is trying to start problems. And I was like, me? What? And he was like, no, no, no. And then we just walked because we were so uncomfortable. And then we started laughing because we were just like, we didn't know what to do.

And she's like, yeah, bitch, keep laughing, keep laughing. And I'm like, Justin, I've never been in a fight before. I don't know what to do. He's like, don't worry, boo. I got you. And we just like ran across the street as fast as we could. And that was kind of like the breaking of the ice moment. for us. And then we went back. I hid in a closet.

So I decided to hang out some brooms and some like, you know, some soap and some... I have a very weird writing process. I get really stimulated very easily. So if there's a lot happening in the track or if someone is singing in my ear, a lot of melodies, I can't, I can't think there's just so much happening my brain just gets cluttered so jason was singing some melodies and felix was working on things and i was just like i need i'm just can i go in there and jesson was like you mean the closet and i was like yeah perfect sat in the dark on the floor yeah justin gave me this this title it was like sick of this like once once you don't sleep with me you'll never be sick of this and

Oh, nice. And so I was like, okay, what if we do it like this and this and this? And I came up with like a little melody, a little sitting in there. Meanwhile, Justin's probably thinking, I'm like a fucking psycho. Like, insane. So I opened the door and I'm like, maybe we should do something like this. And he was like, oh, okay, cool. You can be as crazy as you want.

Let's do this. And that was kind of the start of our relationship. And our four-year anniversary is to actually come. coming up on September 25th. Oh, wow. So. Happy anniversary. Thanks.

Yeah. For a songwife and songhusband. Yes. Yeah. I follow you on Instagram. I follow him as well. My song hubs. What makes you guys, you know, in the last four years, you guys have obviously done a lot and we'll go through some of the songs.

But what makes you guys good collaborators? What is it that you guys have together that most people don't? have? I like to say, well, you know, we have, I think we both have an understanding of what both of us do, and we don't have egos, you know, if I take the lead one day, he's like, cool, and vice versa, we don't get in each other's way. I think, I always say, together we make one perfect human being. He's really light and really energetic and outgoing and outspoken, and I'm kind of broody and introverted and dark and he doesn't have any of those things and most days i don't have those things so together we just kind of make one perfect human being and that's why we work so

well together do you guys i mean do you guys bicker like a real husband wife no we've only gotten into like one fight and that's it really what was it can i ask i don't even remember it was it was it was probably something so ridiculous but we're really quick at being like okay that was enough like we're cool like I love you so you guys meet

and you end up with just a crazy amount of songs coming out in like 2015 I don't know if there's another artist or writer who has 2015 we'll put 16 into because I don't really know when these songs were written

and just know when they came out right you know but you ended with eight songs on Selena, you end up having, I think, nine or something on the Haley's Steinfeld album, you know, Memorial 11, 1500? We did the whole EP with her, I don't. Oh, the EP, five, whatever it is. Yeah, I don't remember how many songs that was.

And then, you know, so I'm not even getting to the singles, just the volume of writing. Yeah. You know, I mean, it's that thing of, at some point, your batting average, I know that the next year you have Brittany Spears where I think you had, you know, five, seven. And then for Gwen Safani, you had 12. Yeah, something like that. You know, even just writing that amount of material is a lot of material, let alone, like, getting into the songs that are singles. And I guess the thing is, like, a lot of these artists, are they coming to you and saying, like, I want you to help shape who I am.

as an artist is it just a coincidence and you walk in it's like hey we all get along let's just do an album and it's just like it just happens that it all just works out

in that way a lot of the times it's it's that first initial meet when we make something really special and the chemistry

is just there right off the bat and then you know you all feel comfortable with each other and you feel like you can be open with each other and no one's going to judge you. And I think that's a really big thing for artists.

You know, they want to be able to say what they want without, you know, being reprimanded, you know. And I think when they find somebody that they can be open and honest with, it's rare for them. and they don't want to mess with it. When we did, used to love you for Gwen,

that was our first session that we had. And Justin had been working with her. I had a mental breakdown, and I went to Iowa because I was just like, I can't work anymore. I'm so tired. So he worked with her for a little while, and then they had me come in.

And we just talked about anything and everything. she just poured her heart and soul out and she had these notes that she had written down in her computer and she was reading these notes and in those notes she said I don't know why I cried but I think it's because I remembered

for the first time since I hated you that I used to love you and just kept reading and I was just like oh like have you ever heard somebody say something and you just feel winded like someone just punched you in the gut with emotions and you're like

I had that feeling and I was like we have to write that and I think we wrote it in about 40 minutes and we were laughing and crying and dancing and I think it was just such a special moment that we just continued it did you have moments in there because of how many because you were writing a lot for female artists but then you have you know of sorry come out with

Justin Bieber. Yeah. Was there ever a pushback from male artists? Did you ever feel like you weren't welcome into certain rooms because you're female? No, I've never felt like I wasn't welcome. When I was younger, I felt like I wasn't welcome mostly for being so young. You know, people don't want to mess with you because they don't think they're. you know what you're doing when you're 18, 19.

And a lot of the times you don't, but you know that you want to be there and you know that you have something that you can bring to the table, but a lot of people don't want to take those risks. And so I'm really grateful for the people that did. It's also super relative. I mean, I was in a band until I was like 29 or 30,

and then I started co-writing and really like trying to do it. So you start co-writing on some level when you're 16. Yeah. So when you have your biggest year, basically when you're 20, 21, 22, 23, it's essentially like the same amount of time as whenever somebody else starts. You just started before everyone. Everyone else thinks they're like, well, when I was 16, I was in high school.

I mean, I was wearing like music suspenders and like a Burt and Ernie tie and singing like in front of fluorescent lights in like some, you know, chorale room. and Deerfield, Illinois. I didn't know that, like, you know, you could be a professional human at that age, you know? So, like, I think people just don't, they're looking at their, through their prism, and they just don't realize that how. A lot of the times, too, people think it happens overnight. Oh, yeah. It does not.

I wrote hundreds and hundreds of songs before. those songs came out. Yeah. You know, it's, it's not, it's not easy. Art is not easy. Did you know that, you know,

you had had singles and slowdown was really big. You know, a lot of these songs were, were pretty big songs, but nothing really was as big as sorry. No. You know, that came out and it was like, oh, oh, there are hits, there are hits, oh, then there's what that is.

Yeah. When you were done writing, it? Did you know? No. I had no idea. None. No clue. We had actually... How did you learn that it was like a good song? So we had been doing, we had been working on the Haley EP during the day and we were asked by Josh Goodwin to come in and try writing a couple songs for for the album. And, we never did night sessions because I work 12 to 6 and then I'm so mentally drained that I just, there's no way I can do another one. And Justin Tranter was like, we should go.

We should just do it. Like, it's an hour of our time. It's fine. And I was just like, it's so political. There's no way we're going to get on this record. It's just not going to happen. So he was like, shh, let's just go. So we go there, we do the first night.

We actually thought the song from the first night was way better. And then... What was that? It never came out. What was it called? It was called Like You Mean It, I think. And then the second night we wrote Sorry. And Goodwin comes in.

He's like, this song is so good. And we're like, really? Okay, cool. And then it made its way to Chelsea Avery and St. Scooter Braun and everybody just loved it and I think from the time that it had been written to the time it had come out it was all of three weeks we um the original version had stutters and the verses and uh just didn't like those was like you go go go and get mad mad my mad at my honesty and justice didn't like those so i think two days later or something we changed them with like a little filler lines like you gotta go and get angry at all in my honesty and um and then it came out like three weeks later it was just insane and then it was everywhere we had we had no clue we had

no idea had i know you could you can hear your voice and other songs that had come out before that yeah but the background yeah it's so clearly you it's not even tweet It's pitch shifted up because we actually wrote it in a different key for my voice and we had to obviously pitch it up for Justin to be able to sing it. But yeah, it's to people that know me and know my voice like you guys do because we've worked together a bunch and you've heard me on demos. It's like it's very clearly my voice. I mean that's a crazy thing.

Yeah. It's almost featuring you in that way. It's so big. So that same, and I know I'm out of order on these things, but like, good for you. Yeah. It really is sort of the difference of Selena being, you know, slowdown makes a lot of sense for when that came out. You know, like, and for, that's more in the Hollywood era. It's, you know, it's really safe.

And then good for you kind of is. You know, sorry is a big song, but in a way, Justin is such a big artist that it supersedes, like, all the other people involved in it. Like, everyone knows who's writing it and all that stuff and you hear you in it and all that. But good for you is like a moment where I feel like it's so different. Yeah. And it's so, like, not a hit in quotes. Right. You know, like it doesn't follow the math.

No. It's just, to me, that's the first time where I think people realize, oh, there's, you know, there's. There is something behind this song that's not the usual writing world. This is like an instinctual choice on some level. As big of it as a hit that is for Selena to be like, hey, I'm a woman now and I'm no longer, you know, in my previous deal. It's kind of like that for you too. Yeah. Did you feel that way?

Like, do you feel like it represents you? in that part of your life in a unique way. I don't know if another song had come out at that point, or maybe I just didn't know the discography. But to me, it felt like that was like a huge moment of this is Julia writing like a Julia song. Yeah, I think, you know, over time, you stop kind of listening to what other people want

and start listening to your instincts and trusting your instincts and stop trying to please other people and you're just like, I'm just going to do what I want and if it works, awesome and if it doesn't, okay. Does someone encourage you

or was there like an epiphany? It was kind of an epiphany. I've always really loved songs that were really conversational because I am that way. And we had written good for you on a Sunday in about 40 minutes. I had had 14 carrots written down in my notes on my phone.

And basically what you hear from first verse down to the end of the course, I just went on the mic and I just sang that down and came out, Justin and I finished the rest, recorded that. And then we left. We had an hour left in the studio and that's what we did and we just left. which did how soon from that to when she heard it I don't remember I'm not sure

but I think I think I remember being like on my treadmill in Iowa with my mom around Christmas time and listening to that song and being like Katie we should maybe we should send this for Selena maybe this could be really cool and it just happened really quickly.

It was actually not even supposed to be a single. It was supposed to be kind of like a, this is your new sound, welcome to the world, kind of like a hype track situation. And I was in Paris when I got the email being like, like, hey, we're going to release the album soon. Looks like, good for you is going to come out next month. Congrats. And I was like, oh, awesome. Because I wasn't thinking anything of it. They were like, it's going to be a hype track. It's like, it's nothing. I was like, great. So then I get a call from

Katie and she's like, are you so excited? I was like, yeah, it's a hype. Like, yeah. She's like, no, it's the single. It's the single. It's coming out. It's the first single. And I was like, What? And I remember jumping on the bed in Paris, just freaking out that this was real and this was happening. It's so funny because, you know, the other side of that was also hearing that I got the call being like, listen, Sam old love is not going to be the first single. And being like, I'm going to sit down on my bed right now and be like, I don't know what this song is. is it's going to be first but I hope it's fucking huge because the bigger good for you.

The bigger the first song is the better shot for the second single. Right. And thank you for writing the second single and it being as big as it was because then it let's say. Hands to myself. So let's go there. This is convenient.

We should have planned that. Hands to myself is another one where it's just like the verse and the chorus and the chorus melodies are kind of the same. You know? So it's another one of those moments of like, yeah, you guys can like go write your songs and do your busy this and busy that. But I'm going to just write my song.

Right. You know, tell me about writing that. I had recorded a voice note. So I tend to be a very touchy person, as you all know. I love to hug people and be like, hi. You know. So Mattman and Robin were in town and we're working on. something and I was giving

them like a I was giving Robin like a hug and I was like leaning on him like like this and Justin was like let's go we're almost done and I was like I'm sorry I can't keep my hands to myself and I was like hmm title

title it's like you know the light bulb mom was like ding and so I left and I recorded this little voice note this 10 second voice note and it's just like can't keep my hands to myself. And you can hear my car

screaming at me to put my seatbelt on because I'm just like recording in my car while I'm driving. Very unsafe. So unsafe. Don't try that at home, kids. Right. And so Aaron Bayshok at Interscope

called us and was like, we're one week away from going to mastering, mixing and mastering and all of that stuff. Do you have any more magic in you guys to just come in and write something and we were like we can try yes so we wrote i think one or two songs that week and nothing just felt right and i think the third day i came in and i was like okay call me crazy but i have this really weird voice note and i think it

could be really cool to make it really simple and sparse and and kind of whispered and sexy something she hasn't done yet um let's just try it and again we wrote it really quickly i've flubbed the the the bridge that i mean i cover why i don't want to in the in the on the mic in the i was like bear with me guys right and i just tried i just experimented with some things and then Beisha came in and Selena came in and everyone just was just like this is it

like we're good like this is it and we all just I remember hearing that song being like don't make mine third just don't make mine third I love this song

just give me a shot bro you have close you know other other songs that were you know coming out I love myself and close for Haley

and close for Nick Jonas and all in my head for Fifth Harmony again with them. You know, those all do well. Yeah. You know, they all end up getting, I believe, to top 10 or radio or 15 or something like that. Somewhere in the top 20. Yeah. Do you check charts?

Oh, yeah. Does it change your mood? Yes. It totally does. Are you able to enjoy. the success of the songs that aren't number ones? Yeah, of course. I mean, there are songs that I just love,

and I don't care if it goes or not. Like, Bad Liar is one of my favorite songs I've ever been a part of. And I think it, I don't even know if it even went top ten, but I don't even care because I just love that song so much. you wrote that in a really interesting place I mean I was I think we were on the bus right after you guys were I think you guys were in maybe that wasn't bad liar I thought

there was some I know you guys were writing on the bus and you were in Florida during the Orlando shooting yeah we were so I thought that the It was kind of we were in we were in Florida for like all for three really intense events the night Christina Grimmie got shot all right

We were leaving Orlando. And when we got to Miami, I think, the Orlando thing had just happened. So Justin actually flew back to go and help. I was going to fly with him, but he was like, Julia, you're an anxious piece of shit. Don't come with me. You're not going to be able to handle all of the trauma. So I was like, okay, I'll stay here. I'll write stuff.

I'll just try and get as many ideas as we possibly can. Selena was heartbroken about Christina. So it was just a really weird time when we were on that bus. Oh, and then after Orlando, that kid got eaten by an alligator at Disneyland. It was just like, it was like three and so crazy, just crazy intense things that had happened. But as a response to it, you guys did a song that I don't think people like, I don't think that there was enough. push for it but the hand song that you had you guys you guys push to have i mean you wrote this song yeah and for people who don't know it they should look it up but there's it's featuring everybody

yeah i'm really proud of that it's a weird thing when you write a song that kind of goes to charity and is also like sort of a we are the world moment um so justin really wanted to do a charity song and he was going to do a song that had already been done like a cover a charity cover and the song that he wanted to do which I don't remember which one it was was um they wouldn't clear it and which is crazy right so we were like let's just write our own what are we doing so we did hands and I mean Justin, it was his birthday when we were flying home from that tour. And he was on the phone non-stop, contacting people, asking for favors, trying to get as many people involved as possible.

I mean, that guy will forever be my hero for that. Like, I really can't take any credit for that song. I wrote it with him, but he really did all of that work. I'm so proud of him. And, I mean, the song came together so quickly. And it was so beautiful to hear all of their voices together, coming together for something that was just so dark and really needed attention, you know.

How did working with, you know, this year you got to work with some really interesting kind of alternative male artists? You got to work with, you're on the bleachers out. album? Yes. Just really exciting. So exciting. Friend of the podcast, Jack Antonoff.

Mm-hmm. You got to work with Ed Shearing, this guy from the United Kingdom. Yeah, just this guy. Yeah. No big deal. And then heavy for Lincoln Park. Yeah. Which I worked on that album too, and that's got to be like the most complicated thing.

You know, like I listened back to that song that we did and it like it has a whole new meaning now. Mm-hmm. And it's very, I don't know how, yeah, it's really intense. Yeah. How did you deal with that, the loss of Chester? It was very confusing. You know, I didn't know Chester very well,

but the little time that I had spent with him, he was really funny and really outgoing. him and Mike would just have the most ridiculous playful banter back and forth and we'd all just laugh and have a great time and every time I would see him like hey how are you I'm awesome ready for this tour I'm so excited about this song

I gotta go I love you I'm like I love you too you know you would never thought you just didn't know no and you know I said this I said that to someone the other day when you're a songwriter you write so many songs that sometimes you start to see things in a generalized kind of sense and you forget that somebody this is what somebody is feeling you're like oh that's relatable yeah people feel weighed down by their problems sometimes things feel heavy but you don't realize

what someone is trying to say to you because it's it's masked with warmth and love and and happiness. So when that happened, I definitely listened to Heavy in a whole new perspective, and I can't listen to it now. There's a lyric in the one that we did, and the chorus is like, you know, I scream to myself when there's nobody else to fight.

Yeah. And it's like, fuck, man. Yeah. I mean, he showed me his lyrics and his phone, you know, for a lot of it. And then we were just, back and forth. And the whole thing is like, oh, it's a dark.

It's a Lincoln Park song. You know, like, here's this guy. I know, you know, of course, I know what this is. Right. But, like, listening to it now is like, oh, boy, man. It's a lot. Yeah. On a happier subject, I did actually talk to Brad and Mike recently.

Me too. And so, like, they will figure out what to do. The last song, you know, before we get to the fun part, is, you know, friends for Bieber comes out about two weeks ago or so. Yeah. By the time this comes out, I don't know, six weeks, something like that. That's a big song. Yeah.

Once again, how do you feel about it? I'm very thankful that I get to keep continuing this. thing with Justin. It's funny, Goodwin FaceTime me before friends came out and I answered the phone and it was Bieber

and I was like, oh hi. I was driving. I was going to let me pull over. I do a lot of things while I'm driving. Probably that I shouldn't. Sorry. And he was like, I'm about to record friends. I'm really excited about this song.

And I was like, awesome. I'm so excited that you're going to do. He's like, we've done a lot of things together. I was like, yeah. He's like, I'm excited that we get to continue this. I was like, me too, man. That was like a really cool, really cool little moment. So you're a pop star.

Oh, yeah. Yes. Am I pop star? I don't know. I mean, look, I think I like when people start are talking about potential best new artists for the Grammys and, you know, however that works out, it works out. Right.

But, you know, are, there's a dearth of women writers who are not trying to compete with what's cool. Right. And they're doing their own thing. There are, I think the best writers as far as artists are concerned right now. And for a few years have been women. I think you look at, you know, whether from, from Katie Perry and Keshe, and Megan Trainor and like girls

write Taylor Swift there a lot of them are really like A-list writers not like they're not you know it's no joke but you come out with issues

and I feel like the response has been insane yeah but it feels it feels like people you know I grew up right when you know Alanis Morissette is like

is killing it You know, and she's super honest with their lyrics. And people are like, are you allowed to be honest with your lyrics? And, like, can you say those things? Yeah. Can you say I go down on you in a theater? And, like, can you say that in, like, your debut song, you know? Damn right.

But you can. And you can, like, you can do these things. Did you feel when issues came out, were you prepared for what was about to happen? Not even a little bit. We wrote the song. We actually wrote issues the day sorry went number one on Billboard. And I was in a relationship at the time

and we got in a really shitty fight about something. And I was like, really of all days today. And I was so upset about it that we actually wrote issues that day. And, you know, sometimes you write things that are just a little too personal. And then, you know, someone wants to cut it and you're just like, yeah, but this one's a little too close to home.

And Charlie Walk at Republic had been trying to coax me into signing with them for a while. Like, took me to see the Carol King Musical, you know, just so badly wanted me to do this. And for the longest time, I just said, No, I think it was more because I'm just a really insecure person, and I've just never thought that I was really good enough to be an artist. And I sent him this song one day.

I said, what do you think of this? And he said, well, what do you want me to think of this song? And I was like, let's, I don't know, let's just put it out, just see what happens. Maybe if, you know, if few people like it, then awesome. Like, I don't want to be famous. I just want... I just want to make connections with people. And then we put out in January, and it just...

It's just overnight. Do you get stopped a lot now? Sometimes. Very, very, very, very random places. The other day I went to Disneyland. I guess this isn't a very random place, but I went to Disneyland with some of my friends. and this little girl we were getting on

It's a Small World and this little girl with her mom or her grandmother were in the boat and I walked up to the gate to wait for hours and she looked up at me and she smiled and I smiled back and then she turned away and then looked back up as if she had just seen like a shooting star or something and I was like hi and she was like and just kept looking back as the boat was moving forward and she was like, oh my God, it was really, really cute.

So there are definitely moments. It's funny because I just don't, I don't think of myself as anything other than someone that just writes music that I want to write. And so then when that happens, I'm like, oh, right. I'm not just a songwriter anymore. People know who I am now. And it's really cool. People will come up to me and be like, I'm a big fan. And I'll give them a really big hug.

And I'll just be like, thank you so much. I mean so much. because it really does, you know. Like I said, it doesn't happen overnight, and it's hard, you know. So for someone to feel that connected to you and your music, it's just, it's a really great feeling. Are you going to write with other artists still? Yeah. I'm trying to be Batman and Bruce Wayne at the same time.

That's fucking bad. That's the sickest. Uh-huh's come out How many, like, are you going to keep Releasing Singles off this? Are you going to keep doing... Off the mini album? I'm not sure. Uh-huh. Are you already writing for the next thing?

Do you already have the songs? I'm already writing for the next... I think what I'm going to end up doing is another mini album. I... I've been writing. I don't have all the songs yet.

But it's coming along. Yeah. I'm going to list five people and just tell me the first thing that comes off the top of your head. Okay. Okay. Lindy Robbins. Cat lady. You know that was good.

That's really funny. Katie Vinton. Mama. Mav's mom. Mama. Oh, I mean, industry mom. Pub mom. Yeah.

That too, right? Yeah, exactly. Your mama. Mama. Pub mom. Pub mom. Becca Tishker. Oh man, I have so many words.

Strong, independent, badass, hero. Katie Vinton, also hero. Lindy, also hero. Jaden Michaels. Aw, warm, and supportive, and beautiful. Justin Tranner. Fabulous. Fantastic.

Energetic. What's a song you wish you wrote? Ooh, I mean, my go-to will always be, I can't make you love me. Bonnie, right? I mean, it's just one of those timeless songs that just murders your insides every time you hear it.

I was with Sean Douglas in Ammo yesterday. Oh, yeah? And we were sitting around a piano singing that, like three growing ass men being like, I can make you love me, singing harmony with each other and kind of holding each other at the same. Mm-hmm.

What's a message that you have for up-and-coming writers? A message I have for up-and-coming writers is to trust your instincts and write what you want to hear on the radio, not what you think other people want to hear, write what you want to say. So I meet with, you know, a lot of up-and-coming writers. Yeah. And I think this has been, this is really cool.

I had a meeting yesterday. And everyone in the office was like referring to you as Julia. They just refer to you as Julia. Like it's like Madonna or pink. Like, you know, when you talk, you could say Katie and Kesha and, you know, Megan, whatever. You already know who I'm talking about, you know, you can go Alicia, whoever, well, I guess Alicia could be pink also. But, you know, the Gisivik, Gwen, you just name them and you know who it is. And the fact is that there is a whole generation that's already calling you Julia.

That's crazy. And in the business, you are now referred to as Julia. And I was like, oh, my God, that is the coolest shit. Like, they don't say Julia Michaels. And a lot of these women are really good, like really good. And their path, I keep. Explain like what works about what you're doing is that You know

It wasn't like you There are a few people who tried to do what you're doing And didn't succeed as it as well as you have You know I mean See is done really well at it and I mean Carol King go back And like there are obviously you know there obviously are people who've done it But the vast majority of people who've had like a moment as hit writers And then tried to do the artist thing

it didn't, maybe didn't fare as well. Right. But some of it is because you wrote always honestly, even for other people. Yeah. So like there was sort of like a, it was an easier transition than being like, okay, that was my how I write for other people.

This is how I write now for myself. And when people hear that, they're like, yeah, but I actually wanted you to sing the songs you wrote for other people. And on some level, not, you know, in the way that it, the honest. is. So I think it's really interesting because you're influencing a whole generation of

up-and-coming women in the music industry. And you're not referred to as Julia. I love that. I think sometimes the reason why certain songwriters turn artists maybe don't work as well also is because they give that sound to one

specific artist. Whereas I have spread that sound to multiple different artists. Sure. So the competition's different. It's not like it becomes more like part of the musical landscape. Yeah.

And not like competing with another artist. Exactly. I think that's maybe why maybe why sometimes turns out a little different. I'm not sure though. Who knows? On a personal note. Yes. First of all, thank you for doing this.

Thank you for having me. There aren't a ton of people that, that go out of their way to check up on other writers and their families and how they're doing. And you've made an effort over the last year and a half to check up on me and my wife a lot. Of course. And it's so incredibly appreciated. And I am so proud of you because you are exactly who you say you are. Thank you.

And I think people who want to know who you are, just listen to your songs. Thank you. And like, I can't compliment you better than that. Yeah, no, that's a huge compliment. Thank you so much. Thank you for doing this. Love you. I love you.

There we go. Thanks for listening to this episode of And The Writer is. If you want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed, be sure to check out our Spotify playlist or visit our website at and the writer is.com. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe to us on iTunes. You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter. And The Writer Is is produced by Joe London, edited by Miles Bergsmah and published by Big Deal music.

A special thanks to David Silberstein from Mega House Music and Michael White. On next week's episode, we sit down with Charlie Puth. And then after that, after you said that, I was like, Then I tell you all about it when I see you again And then we look at each other and we like start crying It was two dudes who had never met each other before Start crying in front of each other And he goes up to me, he's like hug me brother

And we just, I'm getting like chills thinking about it right now Two people who were with each other for two hours We're crying and hugging each other Just because of one line And we wrote the entire song and we spent We started making the production and we worked on until like 2 a.m. The...

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's my voice, and I did that because I knew he produced tonight, I'm effing you by Enrique. And I'm like, I'm going to really impress him right now because I'm going to do... Oh, ooh. Yeah.

And I was like, bro, we need... And so the next day, we're... And I'll never forget, Mike came in. And we took him out of a meeting with, like, Simon Cowell. And he was like, what, he was pissed. He was like, what is so important? And we play him that.

And he, like, starts, like, tearing up too. And he just, and I just met Mike, too. And he was like, give me the pound. You just nailed it. And that's the song that, and I'll never forget, a hundred people came in and out of the studio that day. And they notified the movie company. They were like, we have your song.

Until next time, this is Ross Bowling.