And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 250: Niall Horan | Outlasting Pop's Biggest Band, "Dinner Party" & More

Episode Date: May 19, 2026

Today's guest came up in the biggest band in the world at seventeen, watched it pause at twenty-two, and built a solo career almost no one in his position has ever managed to sustain. From success, to tragedy, and back... This Irishman makes his triumphant return to the stage and our hearts with 'Dinner Party'.And The Writer Is... Niall Horan!He talks about Liam not as a tribute beat, but as a presence — what fires you up to walk on stage when somebody you love would still want to be there. After the band, after the loss, after four albums — who do you become?In this episode of And The Writer Is, we go deep on:- Coming off the 2024 tour that sold over a million arena tickets "without a big smash hit of the show"- The twelve-week Southeast Asia backpacking trip that came right before "This Town"- The story of songs like 'Heaven', 'Slow Hands', 'This Town', and Liam's song...- Pushing One Direction's sound from "What Makes You Beautiful" toward "Story Of My Life"- Going solo at twenty-three and being terrified the music was about to end- Julian Bunetta's intervention on "End Of An Era": "this song is about Liam, we just don't know it yet"- "Dinner Party," the new album, and the next world tourHit subscribe and turn on notifications. Every week, we go deep with the most interesting creatives in music.Follow us on socials: @andthewriterisA special thank you to our sponsors for making these conversations possible.Our lead sponsor, NMPA — the National Music Publishers' Association. Your support means the world to us.0:00 Intro1:12 Straight back to the studio after the 2024 arena tour2:13 Over a million tickets sold in 2024 — "and I just wasn't expecting it"3:23 Meeting on the One Direction tour years ago — abandoned buildings, makeshift studios, 200 fans outside within the hour5:46 The post-show ritual: shower, shorts, Netflix, no drinking9:20 Concerts as events now — the fans build it before he arrives10:08 "I grew up on Slow Hands" — Sombr and the new guard14:34 Why the Irish footprint is so big — and why Irish men can't say it out loud17:16 First concert was the Eagles at four — and his mom's Hotel California vinyl18:44 How Niall's listening drove One Direction's sound toward "Story Of My Life"24:58 Savan Kotecha asks: sticking to your guns when every era says chase the trend27:43 "I don't think I'd be able to sell something else that doesn't come from me"34:34 Going solo at twenty-three — and being terrified it was all going to end35:32 How watching the other boys release first actually fired him up40:05 "You can't chase Slow Hands" — the law Niall heard John Ryan name on this podcast45:15 Why he went backpacking through Vietnam, Cambodia, Thailand and the Philippines after the band46:39 Why Slow Hands taking twenty weeks to #1 was actually the goal56:11 "The minute you think you're a household name, it's game over"57:03 What The Voice actually did to his crowd66:55 "Heartbreak Weather" — wanting to be the song that stands out, even at the cost of being safe75:09 Writing Heaven at 1am in Joshua Tree — and John Ryan about to walk away80:53 Liam Payne, and the song that wrote itself in five minutes once Julian said the thing nobody was saying89:02 The lowest moment of his career — and it's not what you'd guess93:36 The waterfall effect — the people you surround yourself withCredits:Hosted by Ross GolanProduced by Joe London & Jad SaadEdited by Jad SaadPost-Production VFX by Pratik Karki Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Were you scared to go solo? I guess the fear was, after having what I had, I didn't want that just to be the end, you know? What I've been proud of is that I've always just kind of stuck to what I think I do best. I mean, it's what makes you so special. It is so hard to have a solo career. You stuck to your guns like the whole time. You weren't the first to write songs out of the band.

How was it watching your bandmate success influence you as an artist? It definitely got me like five. I can't imagine it's losing a brother. You can't foresee that stuff. Julian actually said it, he'd be like, this song is about Liam. We just don't know it yet. We were like school kids the all time. We're just having a great laugh.

This season is presented by NMPA, the National Music Publishers Association. Champions of songwriters and publishers everywhere. Welcome to, and the writer is. I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's global superstar built one of the most consistent and intentional solo careers ever to come out of a successful band. Literally, one of the hardest things to do in the music industry is to not alienate your existing fan base while inviting them to your new era and still score number one hits. He did it by defying trends and defining his own by pulling influence from classics while collaborating with today's best.

listen it's not just the look of the Irish is that good I don't know no okay it's what happens when you work your arse off oh I'm so sorry about that all the way from up the hill this golfer is one of

the songwriting community's favorites and the writer is Nihorn hello that was one heck of an intro I'm excited to be here thanks for having me

dude this is exciting I know. I've watched this from the start, even before you went to video. I've been listening for a very long time, so I'm very excited to be here. That's amazing. You're on like a whole new era. Here we go again. Yeah. How do you feel about that? Yeah, I know. I'm really excited. I think coming off the back of the last tour, I would just like pump to get back in. Usually I like to take a long time to, you know, debrief, take a second. But this time I've finished the tour and basically went back. into the studio a couple of months later. Is it because you feel the pressure from from a world where everyone's like, give me more content, give me more content? Or is it just like artistic?

Well, I guess, no, not really. I just really wanted to go again. I got so excited off what I did in 2024. I sold a lot more tickets than I thought it was going to sell, playing arenas around the world, and I was just pumped off the back of that and just wanted to hopefully do it again. How crazy is that? Is it hard to maintain? In terms of?

I don't know, selling out tickets in arenas. Oh, my God, yeah. I mean, like, I obviously came from a world where arenas and stadiums was kind of half normal, but never expected it for myself. So to play, I played to like 1.2 or 3 million people in 2024, and it just was not expected because I hadn't toured for like six years, five years. And I just wasn't expecting it. There was no big smash hit off.

the show and I just kind of wasn't expecting it but the fans were we were in that period post COVID where everyone was just fired up to go to shows and get out of the house and see stuff that you sometimes say no to and yeah and the fans are just obviously extremely loyal and then we brought a few more fans in and I was able to do arenas all over the world and it's just a crazy mind-blown thing and still is yeah I was trying to figure out when, you know, we've met a few times throughout the years and all this stuff. And I was trying to figure out with the first time that we would have met. And I don't know if you remember this, but I actually went on tour with you guys, Darbyshire and Manchester. Where else was it? It was

like Leeds. And it's the craziest thing. And I know, like, you know, I'm, here I am a songwriter, just like, kind of just like, hey, do you want to go and try and record on, you know, with these guys that are living this crazy life? And you're, it's hard to explain what it's like to be, you would drive like an hour outside of these cities to a random, and maybe it was a hotel, maybe it was like an abandoned building that was like where people lived three centuries ago. The hotel room was already set up with like, as like a makeshift studio. And within an hour and a half there'd be 200 young

fans outside who somehow found their way to you. It's like it was just the wildest thing to experience, let alone I'm sure live it. I feel like you've been in this phase of, you know, from the beginning

just sort of like the travel around the world and have to be creative all at the same time. And like it's hard to, people out there think like oh, there's an album that comes out and then there's tour that goes out, but you're like, you came in a world where you were recording albums while on tour while doing like a million things at once. When you are on tour now, are you still going back to hotel rooms and working on songs and ideas? Not really, no. I mean, those days were nuts. Like it was,

as you said, it was like makeshift, you know, John and Julian would fly in with you or, you know, and the mattresses against the wall and like a makeshift like computer and a couple of PMCs. and a couple of SM7s and it would just be like recording things and because we were just flying tours and albums and everything was just coming at 100 miles an hour so kind of the way we did it you come off stage record vocals into the night

with Julian or John or yeah it was just the way we did it all over the world different places, different corners and it was fun I mean we were young and full of energy so it was great these days are a little bit different I need my time after a show these days.

Yeah, what is your post-show recovery? I literally take a shower, get into shorts and a t-shirt, watch Netflix or something and just like take it very easy. I don't, I try and I don't do any of the drinking on tour or anything like that. Just literally try and take it as easy as I possibly can. Because when you're in a band, obviously, there's a little, everyone can do the singing, split it up. When you're doing your own thing, it's a different singing for,

90 minutes, you know, even longer sometimes, it's hard work. It's brutal. Yeah, it is. On the voice, on the body, just your adrenaline is just rushing. And then you go from like screaming crowds to you're just in your dressing room or in your bunk and you're just like, what the hell just happened? And you get that feeling 90 times a year, you know, and it's quite a, yeah, the roller coaster of it is something that I don't think you'll ever get used to.

Why do you do it? love it I love that I love touring it's it's something that something that I've always wanted to do something I thought that's what the music industry is is like getting out playing to thousands of people it must be the best

feeling in the world and it is like you could be literally having the worst day of all time and then at 8.30 at night you you know the curtain drops and there you are in front of these people who put their money in their hand in their pocket to come and watch it's a pretty cool feeling when you're on stage

in you're performing, do you feel like, do you ever get nervous? Are you just in the moment? Do you ever think about those things that are happening offstage? Do any, or can you really immerse yourself in 90 minutes of just like ultra focus, you know, the now show? Yeah, no, I definitely just completely focus in on what I have to do. Obviously, the more shows you do, the more of a, You're just kind of doing it.

It's happening around you. And, you know, you can embrace the crowd more and get involved. And you don't have to think about, you know, the early shows of a tour can be quite sketchy. You're like still trying to figure stuff out. But once you get on a bit of a role, you're just kind of, yeah, you're just kind of doing it. And it's, and it becomes a lot more fun. And but I've noticed like with concerts these days, they've become more of like an event. Like I remember a tour just used to feel like, show, show, show, show, show.

Now they're like, each city has like its own event. like concerts are becoming more, it's all about the fans and what they're getting up to before the shows and building up shows. And yeah, you remember what city are in more now than you, than you, then you,

if you know what I mean. Why? I don't know. I think the way pop culture's gone with the, with the Taylor stuff and like Olivia and Harry and so like, like each, it feels like every city now is like, it's a big deal when you,

when you come to town. And it feels, yeah, they feel like more events than just like, oh, it's just another show on that. person's tour. They just feel bigger for some reason. It must be like, you know, you have to have a team of people lead, you know, lead the tour before you get to that city in order to actually make that into a proper event. I feel like the fans are doing it. The fans are doing it. Yeah, the fans are just so, like they've

always been like we're, we're one of few artists, you know, I say that, including all the boys where we just have that, you know, that type of fandom that is just there for you all the time and they just build things up themselves they make a lot of noise around it's around the cities and it's like it's a really cool thing to to arrive into a place and feel like there's an event happening for you and now your fans some of your fans have children you know it's like it feels like you you guys are moving into the generational part of it yeah how does that feel it's great it's cool like it's it's crazy now like recently like performed with like a couple of the you know the new crew whatever you call them the new guard and it does make you feel that little bit

older like i was recently got up and played with somber in london and um you know i did a couple did this thing with did sally with uh role model and all these young younger guys that um are you know want to come and sing my songs is pretty nuts like i remember somber said to me he said uh dude i grew up on slow hands and i was like Like, what do you mean you grew up on Slough Hands? How old are you? And when I think about it, Somba was 12 when Slow Hands came out. And Slow Hands, to me, feels like it came out last week.

Yeah. It feels like that too. I was kind of surprised how long that's been. You know, your story, not mine, but during the Grammys, I go every year. And there's like the amount of people who are like, oh, man, I've been listening to your podcast since I was in high school. And you're like, what? Oh, man, we've been around for nine. plus years like yeah man that's nine years wow yeah it does make sense if you're 27 years old then yeah you were

in college studying music that's the math yeah um congrats you're old you made it yeah i made um do you do you do you golf on tour yeah it's nile's golf tour of music with music do you really golf is that real especially in the states like like i like i'm trying to like you know might some people might stay in the city that they just played if they have a day off the next day, I'll like maybe have a stop on the way to the next place, shower on the tour bus. Where are your favorite places to golf in the United States? I mean, Florida's great. There's so much good golf in Florida, TPC Sawgrass, all those like great Florida golf courses will hit like random places in like Ohio or...

How many rounds are you playing a year? If we do 30-something shows, I'll try and get in 10 rounds. That's a lot. that's not a golf festival. Well, it is for somebody who you think, like, when you envision somebody who's a rock star playing arenas, the last thing you're thinking is that in between shows, that's what they're doing.

Oh, no, my fans know exactly what I'm doing. You don't have to think. Do they follow you at, do you see fans at golf courses, or they, or is it sort of like, at this point, you can go do that and how? No, no, that's fine. That's how we kind of get it, like, properly into it. Like, I played a lot when I was a kid.

Like, in Ireland, I played. I played, grew up playing golf. And then Harry and I would just like, you know, with the madness around hotels and stuff, we would literally just go off into the countryside and play golf and you were behind the gates of a club. And yeah, there wasn't anyone around. So that we really got into it around then. Do you have a handicap? Yeah.

What is it? I play off eight. That's impressive. I heard John Ryan. I was going to say. Yeah, I knew that was coming. Are you better than John? We go, we flip-flop.

Yeah. But do you know what John's like? You know, he's just like, dude, I'm the best. Yeah, like, of course, no one's better than me. And that's pretty much about everything. Yeah, it's infuriating. You hear that, John? Who's someone you'd like to play golf with?

Ooh. Steph Curry. He's a beast of a golfer. Like, he's probably as good of a golfer as he's basketball. right he's really good i didn't know he was that good he's like he's a really really really good uh yeah i would love to play with step um it's interesting that he said step and not like i mean well tiger's a little busy right now but like like you know like you know you could have said somebody who's a professional golfer but you said step like to be fair i like i've um i'm

good friends about a couple of the pros so i've played with a couple of the pros and laura mackleroy and justin rose um um They're good friends in mine and I've played with them a few times. Is it just so you guys can get into like, do you just drink Guinness the whole time and whiskey? Yeah, I love playing golf with social golf with professional golfers because they come down a peg or two. Get them drunk and then watch them hit. Is there the Irish thing though that gets you? And I mean, obviously, Justin's, he's British.

Yeah, yeah. But like our English. Is that what, you know, is there the Irish bond that you get with a, a. Rory? Yeah, I guess so. That's how we met. We met through mutual mates who put us in touch and we were down in Australia at the same time and we just met up and basically bonded over drinking and not golf, but since I've played golf since. Why is the footprint of Irish people so big? It is not. It's actually blows my mind most days of the week. It's for a country of like, I think there was a stat a while ago where it was like five million people in Ireland and like

90 million Irish passports on the planet. And it's just like the cultural footprint that we have around the world is just, it's mind-blown. It seems like every American you bump into is like, I'm from, my dad's from Cork. Yeah, yeah. How big is Cork? Or there's one dad. It's very busy.

But it's weird, you know, it's weird. We were talking to Dermit recently and it's like, you know, there's, it's, you know, it's, you know, the stereotypical Irish male is not a overtly emotional person. And then you have these amazing Irish musicians and songwriters and writers as a whole, you know, books, poems, you know, why is it that Irish men are able to communicate their emotion through art and not in, in, in normal conversation. I feel like it's the age old question.

I don't think anyone's ever put... I think if we talk about it, then our art won't be as good. Yeah. I feel like that's just like our vehicle and it has been for years. I don't know why we have a lack of emotion sometimes, but can still put pen to paper quite well over the years,

whether it be screenplays or, you know, writers, songwriters, actors. I don't know what it is. Did you grow up listening to traditional Irish music? Yeah, a lot of traditional Irish music, but my parents were more into like 70s

Laurel Canyon rock. But yeah, I feel like just in my bones is just, like I would play 6-8 straight away. Or, you know, like, and that's why like country music here speaks to me or, you know, like there's a lot of, in my roots

and, you know, in my bones, that would be like a lot of folkier traditional stuff, yeah. Yeah, country music and that Appalachian Americana stuff is our direct descendants of Irish music and Irish immigration into this country. So that definitely checks out. You're welcome. Basically, what I was saying is a long-winded thank you. On behalf of all Americans.

Me, just taking credit for all this. Yes. now horn takes credit for all of American music what kind of music did like you said Laurel Canaan but that's pretty vast well I grew up like my first ever concert was an Eagles concert no way yeah I went to my first Eagles gig when I was like four or five my dad like I recently found like my mother's like original Hotel California

vinyl from the day it came out came with like a free poster or something and like I was looking at this just going do you realize what you've got got like it obviously she didn't because she bought it at the time but like looking back 50 years later it's it's the best one of the best keepsakes you could have yeah totally and like final like seven inch lanyl richie releases and things it was just like geez you've got good taste of music uh but thanks to them it kind of brought me into all the things that was going around around here like johnny and crosbie stills and jackson brown and all of that and that's the stuff that i literally still listen to this day and um yeah old had young shoulders i mean you can't you can tell this is obviously the

influences of that and the relationship with the with julian and john and you know this all checks out yeah i think you know and not not to jump too far ahead but i think that that influence is a lot of where one direction went too you know is is because of what you were listening to has you know a massive influence on the direction of the band. Yeah, I guess so. Like, we would have been, like, talking a lot with John and Julian and about, like, what the sound was going to be, especially, like, the later albums, maybe the last two, especially.

About, like, where the sound was going. It was definitely, like, on the rockier side of pop. But there are some, like, real folky things in there or real singer-songwriter things or kind of heavier American rock. But that's just in, that's in a few of us, and it's also deep rooted in the boys like in John and Julian like they're I mean that is that's that's them isn't it before

I mean they can do everything they can do pop R&B like Julian started making hip hop beats and things and John's just a his his roots are traditional American rock really isn't it and it definitely bled into and coincided with art

what we were listening to when do you first think I think I can write a song I was probably about 14 or 15 like I remember getting the first guitar and like playing the first four chords of like Wonderwall like every kid of my age ever did not just your age I don't know who you're kidding

there's not a person who played guitar who wasn't that's what was going on. Literally E minor G, D and A for the first four and yeah I don't know I just it was probably about 14 or 50 I can't, like, can't even think about with the first thing that it probably, that it was, but. Yeah, I remember right before we started, you said, don't ask me about what the first song I realized. Yeah, I couldn't even tell you what, there was some weird titles, like streetlight and

random. How did it go? How did street light go? God knows. Like, it was at that period where I didn't have, like, the confidence to actually go the whole way with a song. Like, it was just, like, writing bits. I'm still doing a bit of that now, actually, you know?

Like, you're just constantly just writing verses and writing chorus. and just like never actually get into the end of things because I didn't actually know what I was doing. Well, congrats. You're a professional songwriter. Yeah, I know. I mean, that's what it is. I got a lot of help along the way. No, but that's what it is. It's like you, you come up with these random ideas. You record them in your phone or wherever and you're trying to figure out, is this one worth finishing? You try to finish him. Were you in a poetry? Were you writing lyrics and stuff? Or is it always like a melody guitar thing? More of a melody guitar thing. A lyric became, the more emotionally evolved I got. I got better at like actually just putting pen to paper and there's the

Irish thing again and actually spilling it out. But for a long time it was more like melody and kind of mumbles. But yeah, I got there in the end, but a bit of pushing and shoving from, especially from John and Julian. When did you start playing songs around the house where people were like, hey, he's pretty good. Yeah, probably around that. Your parents got divorced when you were young. Yeah, when I was young, yeah. So I spent a lot of time in between the houses, but still kind of a very social family. Everyone was around all the time.

And I just remember, like, singing, like, early, like, Shania Twain and stuff and Garth Brooks and things like that in the car. And people would be like, oh, pretty good or whatever. Or, like, I had a teacher at school that really, like, took me under her wing and, like, put me in choirs and gave me solo parts at Christmas carols. And I played all of her when I was a kid in, like, a school. cool play and like just kind of please sir please sir can have some more pretty good you still got a shot yeah i could still do it it cast me yeah um and yeah i just kind of just always had a love for it

and love for like performing and being a show off and um did you growing up in musical theater is uh like being just doing any of these performances to me i found that to be incredibly influential and being able to move different genres and and performing in front of people and and also hearing the greats like the best songs ever god some of the music in them do you think you'll write a musical i would love to i've often thought about that when i seen max martin doing doing that music a while ago yeah or julia did it and julia did something and i was like oh that'd be such a cool thing to like cast some you know put some time aside to actually dig in for six months and try and write to something but i haven't got the offer yet would you perform in one

Oh, never thought about that. Yeah, I would. If it was the right thing, of course, and at the right time, and it depends on who was doing it, obviously. But yeah, it would be... Do you have a desire to do that kind of singing slash acting?

I don't know if I've got the patience for full acting. Like, even a music video is a slog for me. Is it? The waiting around. Like, the between shots, stuff, I don't have the patience for that. Um, but, uh, no, I, I don't think I would. Again, if it was the right thing at the right time and like just said, someone came to me and was like, right, we've got this great music.

Got this idea for a show. I would, I would have to have a strong think about it. But I do like what I do. I love like making records and going on tour and making records and going on tours. And I kind of like that cycle. And it's something that I've gotten used to for so long. So it would have to be something that I was really into to break that. You know? Yeah, I want to talk about that, um, you know, the abridged version of the 1D journey and how it affected your songwriting specifically around that. You've done a lot of conversations about the band, obviously. So I think what's interesting is the front row seat to the best songwriters in the world and seeing that. So, you know, starting with this segment, which is what would Sovin, Cotetia, ask now Horan and the writer is. Sovan would like to know. Oh.

He says, now you're a veteran artist. What do you feel is the most challenging thing to deal with as things have moved into this streaming TikTok era, having come from X Factor when Twitter was brand new? That is the most savin question of all the time and a great one, because he always asks great questions. I love Savin, by the way. Well, legend. Some of my earliest memories have even been in the studio

with him. He was a vocal coach on the X Factor at the time and he was our first industry person that we dealt with and obviously gave us what makes you beautiful and some of the crackers

from that first record. What would he say to answer to that question? I think what I've been proud of is that I've stuck to my guns on things. I could have easily, like, followed suit and a lot of, like, when music changed, I could have went with it just to have, you know,

the big moment or the big viral song or whatever. And I've always just kind of stuck to what I think I do best. And, you know, whether that be, like, the folkier side of me or, like, at the time I released this town, or Slow Hands, it was a big EDM time. I mean, it's what makes you so special. Like, when I said that in the intro, let's take other people that are in successful bands

that have tried to do it, whether it's, you know, like the biggest bands of all time, people did solo albums. And very, just very few. I'm not talking about, I'm not talking about boy bands. I'm talking about all bands. It is so hard to have a solo career.

It happens that you that you guys each have had moments But to have like a career Means that you stuck to your guns like the whole time Like who gives you the confidence to stick to your guns in an era where everyone's like More more more more and you could be this and you could be that Yeah Aren't there times where you feel like I don't know maybe I should go do that EDM record? Yeah

Like I just kind of I don't think I'd be able to sell it. Like, I don't think I'd be able to sell something else that doesn't naturally come from me. Like, like, when I pick up a guitar, I sing a certain way. Like, a certain type of melody comes out. I don't know if I could ever try and sell that to people. I think people could see through that. Like, that it's not authentic. You know, I think that's very obvious when you see it? When did you know that? When did you know that what your authenticity is as a singer as an artist as a songwriter well i think i gained that confidence from going from not really

knowing to honestly a lot of this comes down to john and julian because like julian's first thing when we write is he gives me one of these we play some chords and he just gives me the mic to the first melody pass is always coming from me no matter what we're doing because it has to feel like it comes out of my mouth. And I gained so much confidence from that. And that's where I think you just, you evolve and you know what happens when you pick up a guitar, what chords you play, what type of melody, what cadence you go for, what the first thought that comes to your head when you hear a groove or the chord progression. And I think I learned a lot from that. And then you just go, and then you, that's happening subconsciously.

And then consciously, you go, all right. that's me so i and then off the success of this town in slow hands you kind of go well that that worked yeah so if it's not broke don't fix it yeah and yeah i don't know if really know if i'm answering your question but i think some of it's going you know through that journey of like now you're you're you're sort of cast in a position where these are the songs you're you know these are some songs that you're going to record so you're learning the business you're learning like this is what you guys sound like and kind of like

you know that was unique in and of itself but the journey it started becoming you know the sonic stuff started moving as a band into this this world that made sense for you to go

and do your solo thing the way you were doing it you know when in the journey did you start you know how did the band evolve from you know you know, what makes you beautiful into story of my life. Like to me, I feel like that's,

that's where you start seeing this, this move sonically that is left, a left turn for a band that's coming out of X Factor. Yeah. Um, I do think that, again, the boys have had a big part of that. And,

and I think we were just getting that little bit older. We weren't, we'd gone from being 18, 19, to, wanting to be, we're getting older and want to be seen to be, I guess, we wanted the music to match our age and what we listen to. And I think that was a big turning point for songs like, night changes in story of my life and deep cuts like fireproof and,

like if I could fly that you were involved in. And like it started to get to feel older around that time as we aged, as we slowly age from being teenagers to, being young men if you like um yeah and then when i when it came to my own stuff then it just felt like a natural evolution obviously i was involved in a lot of those more so in a lot of those later albums and i guess my influence was being pushed on on the songs a little bit more so when the transition happened then it was easier for me to translate that i remember people saying you know in the business like I worked with Harry

and I worked with a few of you guys in some capacity during the time but a lot of people were saying in the best way that your influence on on where the band's going it's like you want to talk to now like he's got he's like he's pushing

he's pushing the boundary of where the band can go sonically and it was really an interesting thing to be like oh well that's that was some of the lore within the songwriting business was that this is this guy and like where you and harry were pushing some of the songwriting stuff and where that was going did you feel like you were encouraged to be a songwriter during that era did you feel like there was pushed back from the label when were you getting encouragement to be a voice of the songwriting. But I think at the start, we just were kind of happy to be to be doing it. And people were, you know, Savin was throwing songs at us and Rami and Carl and Karmikoub and Carl Falk. And we're

in and out of Sweden all the time. And like it was just so exciting to be in the studio recording songs. And then once it kind of kicked off, then we realized, oh no, we want to do this too. Like we want to be, be involved in like, let's set up sessions. And Harry and I would work together a bit. and Louis and Lane would do a little bit and it was kind of like we'd I'd go off and write with someone else and Harry would do a bit and they were kind of just

we were just slowly learning that we've, what we wanted to write about what we, like what we were going to sound like and just a kind of slow evolution of us getting involved more and more as the years went on.

I just, I was just always like pushing, playing people's music that I loved and slowly trying to, to infiltrate their minds and stuff that I that I was loving and listening to and felt like the band could lean towards, I suppose, and kind of more subconscious really than like really pushing it. Like I'm not saying I was going to.

It wasn't manipulating. It's not like I was in or in the band, but you know, like I was, they knew that that's the kind of stuff that I was into and I'd go into a room with John and Julian and we'd jam and then all of a sudden you'd have a different type of song. I don't know.

It's kind of, you can't really put my finger on exactly what it was, we just kind of slowly migrated towards this kind of older mature 70s kind of sound. Yeah. Nice. So the rumors were true. Were you scared to go solo? Was there ever fear? I guess you're just like, my fear was like, oh God, well, I hope it's just, well, my stomach is rumbling here.

I guess the fear was just hoping that this. what's in the end of my like a 23 or four or whatever I was just hoping like by the way it'd be a nice legacy you know to have the last five years but like just hoping that I can still keep doing it and just loving what I was doing and just wanted to keep doing it and trust in that if when push came to show of if I picked up a guitar and given the chance to work with the boys again uh John and Julian you know the trust that something would come of it. And obviously we never know.

You write so many songs, but just still wanting to be, to be doing it was my biggest fear and not just like, all right, now I'll go back to my normal life again. And after having what I had, I didn't want that just to be the end, you know? Yeah, we were just talking about

somebody that we interviewed earlier who felt, who used competition with some of his friends in an insane way to become, you know, to become successful. And you weren't the first to release a single at that point. You weren't the first to write songs out of the band for yourself. How was it watching the beginning of the other guys releasing music and their success? How did their, how did the, how did your,

bandmate success influence you as an artist it definitely like um it definitely got me like fired up to even want to do it more you know like kind of in like a oh i really want to do what they're doing type thing um you know being in being back in the charts and selling out gigs and stuff like that and i just didn't want to miss out you know i didn't want to be part of that too but i i do think we it's a kind of a cliche thing but and we say it all right all the time, but if we were making the same type of music, if we'd all kind of just jump down the same lane, I think it would have been,

it probably would have been more competitive. You know what I mean? But they, we actually, like, completely stayed away from each other, sonically, really. And I was just more, I wanted to be a part of it, knew we were making different music,

and was actually genuinely, like, happy for them. And that's not even, like, I'm not bullshitting, like, it was delighted for them. Like, because I knew they'd be thinking the same thing as me. Like, I hope that what we've done in the last few years is not just the end of it.

And we all get to, you know, grow and evolve again. Was it a surprise when people would release their albums? Or did you guys share demos before they came out? No, the first couple were a shock. I remember speaking to Louis about he, I'd heard a couple of his things that he was doing. And I knew Harry was, you know, just. hearing it, we don't really like talk about music

too much because we've more talk about the memories and like the, that kind of stuff, it's less about like, oh, when you're releasing, when you're releasing. We kind of don't really have like a music industry style relationship. Sure. Where it's just talking about like with the next release or the next day or the next show or the blah blah.

So no, not really, didn't really know too much to be honest. So you go into the studio with John and Julian and, you know, Tobias and a bunch of other people along the way. And it starts to become like the new era, the solo, the solo era. And before we begin that in this segment that we'll call, what would Julian Beneta ask, Nile Horn. On end, the writer is he says, if you had a magic wand, describe what Nile's life is in another 10 years. Well, I hope I'm still making music with Julian, first of all. Wow, I can't believe it's been 10 years since I've started my own thing. It feels like a different life in a way.

So God knows. I'm getting into that period now where I'm settling down, you know, from a home point of view. But I just like, and Julian knows this, like, Julian knows how much I love, like what are we do? he he'd probably get an energy off me as well like that that I genuinely like really love being in the studio with the lads writing songs and then getting out and doing shows and like I when I say that I genuinely mean it and Julian knows that about me and I just I'm always one of those people that like I just try and like take it in as I'm going

and I if you'd had told me 10 years ago that I was going to be putting another album out for out like my fourth album album out and another arena tour, I would have laughed in your face. Like, I wouldn't have, you can't foresee that stuff. And I just hope that I'm having the same conversation with you in 10 years and I'm still doing the exact same thing. And I'm excited about where the music can go. Like, it's just been a slow evolution over the past four albums. And I feel like I'm just starting to get there and get really starting to get there now like in terms of i used to go like we would go through a period where i would like chase down slow hands again and then grew up and realized

that you just can't that that way you can't do that and i heard john talking about on this like you can't you can't just go and write slow hands again it happened let's try something else you can't just like chase down and let's find like the next 80s lick and gate another vocal and You know, you can't do that. It is what it is. And the less I've done that, the more of, the more I've enjoyed what I do. You've done such a good job at evolving each album. And each, you know, I always think of albums as movies, you know,

and each song is a scene in the movie. And the movies are different. And you guys have done a really good job at being in that movie for this. And maybe it's the aesthetic, the whole thing. But like when you really go into it, you're like, this feels like I'm in this world right now. Yeah. It doesn't feel like I'm in, you know, like you're repeating the same world.

I would say especially on this album, I think like one to 12, I think this is like the most cohesive sounding thing. I think in the second album, intentionally we went into like, all right, we're just going to write that song. And whatever that song tells us how to produce it, we're going to produce it that way. You know, we didn't really overthink. It was like going into a pitch session or something.

We just kind of just went for it. we didn't really like create the world as well as we had in the last two probably but i think in this in this album it feels like they're from the same they're all from the same planet and yeah uh come from the same movie and not the sequel when you release this town was it a relief yeah do you know what i wasn't even planning on like i was just kind of it was more of like a telling the fans that i'm still doing music kind of release it wasn't like a big that's crazy it's nuts like we just I took a Polaroid picture as the single cover and I knew I was going to make music

because I was signing with Capitol Records and Steve Barnett who had ran Columbia with Rob Stringer when we were at with 1D and then Steve Vanett came over to look after Capitol Records and he wanted to sign me and I just knew I knew I was going to be making music and I just went in with Jamie Scott who lives near me

to big shout to Jamie we love Jamie I've written some of my favorite songs with Jamie and yeah, I'd had this idea for a song on a beach in Thailand after, when the band stopped, I went traveling around Southeast Asia with a backpack and I just had this idea for the song and I went to Jamie with it and we just wrote this song and I was like, I didn't really,

I probably had two or three others and I was like, I need to just tell people that I'm doing something so I just like, put it out there and then all of a sudden it's like now it's got like a billion streams. Not like a billion streams. It has over a billion streams.

It's great. It's just nuts. Makes you want to go backpack again. Yeah, I think I'm like a bike. Maybe not write the same song again, but go. Are you recognized throughout the whole world? Like when you're backpacking through Southeast Asia, are those people like this now, this.

Yeah, in places. I do a good job of, you know, keep my head down and, you know, keeping quiet. But I know, I was getting notes. But we were hanging out in like, when you're just, staying in hostels and like with people who are traveling the world for the next three years. Who's we? Me and my two cousins. Oh, nice.

And we just traveled around Southeast Asia for like 12 weeks and stayed in hostels and stuff. And people would notice me, but, you know, they come up and they'd be like, you know, fair play. You're doing what everyone else is doing here. Like, we'll, we'll leave you. We're obviously going to leave you alone and people were really good about it. And it was great. And we had the best time ever, literally a red rucksack and a pair of flip flip.

and I don't think I wore a shirt for about 10 weeks. He was kind of flying around different islands in the Philippines and Vietnam and Cambodia and Thailand and stuff. It was great. Were you at all influenced by the music that you came across? Out there. Yeah. No, I was just more of the free spiritness of it. Like, to be sitting around, people sitting around with guitars and singing songs back and forth to each other.

And I just loved, like, it felt all very relaxed. And I think it freed me up. but relaxed me because I had that plan that obviously I knew the band was coming at the end of that year I knew it was coming to to a pause there so I was like I need to do something normal now because I've traveled the world now for years on private jets and stayed in five star hotels and like I've done that side of things I kind of want a bit of the other side of the aisle and I knew that was coming and I teed it up to help to to parachute myself back.

Why are you so grounded? I don't know. That's so messed up, man. I don't know. Anybody else who's traveling doing private jets and five-star hotels is not thinking how now what I need to do is get dirty. I know, I don't know. It's sort of like, I want to buy my own jet and that hotel. Nobody's thinking the opposite.

I don't know. I just felt like we needed it. Is it something that your parents instilled in you? I think there's probably an Irishness to it. Yeah. there's definitely a grounding. I mean, you can't really sound very humble by calling yourself humble. You know what I mean?

There's nobody more humble than me. I'm the best of being humble. But there's definitely like an Irishness to that kind of thing, yeah. NMPA is our lead sponsor yet again. What is the National Music Publishers Association? What do publishers have to do with songwriters anyway? Well, unlike artists who can be unsigned artists, there is no such thing as an unsigned writer. You can be a self-published, a co-published or a published writer.

Publishers only make money if songwriters make money. So, NMPA goes and fights for you. They go to Congress, they go and support the community, they fight DSPs to get you paid more. That's what they do. They fight for you, and they fight for this podcast. So thank you for fighting for songwriters NMPA. Thank you for fighting for us too. So this town comes out.

It's a big song and over time it's gotten bigger. Yeah. Which is kind of amazing. It's crazy. Slow Hands is like a whole other rocket ship. You know, it's a, it goes number one everywhere. You know, did that resolve any issues for you or did it create more issues for you? it did a bit of both

I think like getting like getting that kind of commercial success was kind of like and it's the smallest way it's like still got it still got it you know like right we're still here more so like that more like

all right I'm still people still want to hear from me and what I liked about slow hands was it took a while for it to get to number one I think it was like took like 20 weeks or something like that and and which I liked actually I would have loved the big first week number one you know but I actually liked the slow build of it and the slow build of it since like it only it got to a

billion streams it only got a billion streams only last year after a long after a long time but I've kind of enjoyed and that's what I hope for the rest of my career that there's a bit of longevity in it and songs become part of the furniture if you like and I hope that we can still keep doing that for a very long time even economically

it's always better for a song to take longer to go to number one because you get to enjoy the bumps along the way and you enjoy the longer the longer road up to number one means the longer drop off from number one too both those things become true. It's just if you if you launch at number one, you know, it can stay there for a minute,

but a lot of songs go number one and disappear because of whatever like buzz thing that gets there. It definitely falls under the category of songs I wish I wrote and I was, uh, I was annoyed I didn't write that song. Really? I'm so annoyed. I didn't write that song. We get, like I hear that quite a lot from that. I'd go into sessions then afterwards and people would just talk about slow hands and like, the gated vocal and it was just something that we just fell upon and like yeah it's so good

everyone would talk about it afterwards and stuff well because also we were um you know it falls in that list of like uh we want something that's sort of like slow hands like it falls it like there you've if you look at what a who's looking list kind of thing you know that song is on that list I think I have like a song maybe two

that have landed on some list like that. But, like, slow hands is like, it's, it's often like, something that's kind of like, I think it was saying earlier at the time, it was nothing, it was so stand out. I think timing is obviously a big part of that, as we know. And there was nothing like it in the chart. And I think that's what kind of kept people going, what's that? Kind of had like an 80s lick, but it was a pop song. And it was like, kind of.

loosey, groovy, kind of, I don't know what's going on there, but I remember, like, not really, like, being crazy into it when we wrote it. What?

Yeah, we wrote two songs that day. We wrote another song called On the Loose, that was on the first record, too, and Tobias was just screaming and shouting like Tobias does. And, I just remember just,

all right, let's, we're writing a second idea. Now, you know the way, like, you just kind of write a bit and then move on to the next thing. And I didn't really think about it for,

like weeks afterwards and yeah and then it just blew my mind what happened next but at the like at that very moment it's not like the whole room was gone we've just broken the world here it goes we've got smash hit we was kind of like it happened and then yeah wait so how does that happen I I know when when there's momentum after a session and the artist is walking around being like I think this is my next thing and then like the manager's like are you sure okay I'm backing you and the label's like I guess so like I see that journey. I've seen that journey. I know that's how that works.

But when an artist is like, yeah, that was cool. I don't know. Like, how does Slow Hands become a hit? I don't know. Well, everyone was into it like, you know, like a few days later when every, like, it starts getting sent around. And then it became a big thing. But like in the exact moment I go on like, this is hooky.

And it's like. And when did you know Slow Hands was a hit? About 25 weeks later. I was great. No, I, I, a couple of weeks in, I was like, just looking at what's going on around it, what types of songs are in the area at the time, and just seeing its slow progression. I was like, this could, this could hang around. And then I became like, obviously, like, at the closer to the release, it became to love it.

But I remember at the time, like, the day, like the very moment we wrote it, I've never, or never remember going, none of us did. I mean, Tobias was coming off the back of like when we were young. You know what I mean? And Julie and I were just in a period of just writing a lot, you know, so it was just song after song after song. And Tobias was kind of in for that day. And Ruth Ann came in and helped us write the bridge.

But, yeah, that exact moment, I never. You never do, though, do you really? I get excited. I've been excited for songs that didn't even do anything. What's a song that you were excited about that did nothing? There's this song I have called Black and White. It's on my second album. It's like a four on the floor kind of tune.

And I wrote it with Teddy and Teddy Geiger and explicit. We did a camp in the Bahamas one time, which was pretty sweet. And I remember being in the room for that. Like a four on the floor stomper, everyone is up. And I was just like, in my head I'm going, this is going to be huge. No. Why do you think it wasn't it? I don't know.

You can never put your finger on why it wasn't. We can always put our finger on why it was. You know, I don't really know. But the fans, like, it's now a complete fan favorite. And when I play shows, like, when I go, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, they're just like, the crowd goes nuts. And they're up and jumping and singing along. Do you laugh maniacally?

Like, I told you so. None of you believe you. they're like we're here for you man why you're like the fans the fans love it but obviously for it to be it needs to be a wider thing but it's funny that in i have a video from in that room that day and we were just gone nuts and you get that every now and i had that with with heaven as well and so you know that that's pretty bad heaven was yeah yeah yeah that's like that's that that's that's a slow burner yeah and uh but just you know sometimes you're in shooting and you get that feeling and we had

you were right about that though i mean i think that shows that sometimes you're right yeah maybe yeah i'm an overthinker anyway i'm an overthinker when it comes to that stuff um i just i definitely have learned to like just enjoy the moment for what it is and if it's a hit it's a hit and if it's not it's not that's fine it also helps once you have some songs that are out that give you the base to feel that way yeah exactly you know when you need it because you're like i have

no i you know it's hard if you were doing an arena tour but you didn't have any of those songs it'd be really hard. Exactly. It'd be a very lonely tour. But as we were saying, you can... You'd be playing Wonderwalls. Which by the way, they'd probably would love for like... Great cover.

No, you can chase those forever, but yeah, I definitely got to a point where when I stopped chase and I definitely enjoyed the writing process and the releasing process and the touring process a lot more. Do you think of yourself as a songwriter or an artist first? I think over the years I've gained a lot of confidence in the songwriting sphere like there was a period where I wouldn't have done a lot

I probably could have done it but shied away from it because in my head I didn't think I was good at it but then when I started doing it I was like oh actually maybe I'm all right and someone in the room would go that's great or like that melody's great or that lyric's good

and then you just started slowly gaining confidence To be fair, like, I know we keep, I keep bringing them up, but John and Julian are huge to this. Like, I wasn't a great guitar player, but, like, you spend enough time with John Ryan. And, like, I'm very intuitive, like, brain. I'll be watching, I'll be, like, seeing what they're doing, like, learning how to use pro tools. And, like, just watching how they do things. And, like, you know, songwriting tips and tricks that I've picked up off Amy or Amy Allen or Steph Jones or, you know, just, like, things that gave me. confidence and

and then you just then I fully committed to the bit I guess and yeah do you think after Flickr comes out which is like you know it's a number one album on Billboard 200 you know at that point are you like

oh yeah I'm a songwriter songwriter yeah I don't think you're saying like you're not something else well like at that point like you know the whole idea is to become a household name and have a bit of longevity.

Is that the whole idea? To me, longevity and like being around for, for a long time and not just being like a flash in the past, like, I just want to do this forever. And that's the goal for me is to do that. Are you a household name now? I don't know. That's, but the, well, from your perspective, are you a household name? I don't, I think people know my name.

and I would be a household name to certain people, I guess. But I think the minute you think you're a household name, it's game over, really. You take the foot off the pedal. You take your foot off the pedal and you believe your own shit. And then it probably is... Do you think the voice helps that? Or do you think the voice was sort of not to jump ahead?

But do you think that that, you know, is that part of the overall... branding of like making sure you understand that this guy's got a sense of humor this guy knows what he's doing he's giving good advice he's doing like does that help that um potentially yeah i think it definitely opened the audience up um like when i played my shows i couldn't believe the difference in the crowd from one season of the voice to the next crazy like crazy like a lot of like a lot of older people, older couples, groups of older dudes, groups of people, like, guys my age turning up, like, which would have been completely unexpected at the time and just like being, and I think the voice played a huge part in that. It opened my audience. It also gave me a lot of confidence on, like, camera and being able to, like, completely, like, try and be myself on camera. So, effectively on the voice, you're hosting a TV show. You know, once you press the big red button and the chair spins, you're hosting the show. You're hosting the show. and I think I got a lot of confidence from that.

Were you nervous? You say you gained confidence. Were you nervous when that show started? Yeah, well, I'd never really done, obviously, anything like that. I'd been on a TV show on the other side of it, but it's a completely different deal. Yeah, and just trying, like, being yourself on camera, you know, having a bit of banter between the coaches is something that I would have never have done before. So literally had that first audition, I was like, oh, crap, this could go one of two ways. did it affect your

did being on the voice affect your songwriting or your artistry in any way um it made me dig into other influences because I was picking songs for for different styles of artists and it made me like have a proper dig into stuff

that I used to listen to that I don't listen to anymore or new stuff or yeah just it made me like spend more time looking for songs and I think then you go oh yeah sick drum sound or I love that tremolo on that guitar or like that era was so good that decade was amazing what other bands were in that decade what other art you know like things like that I think it helped me with you're kind of only as good as your app you know your diet that you take in yeah yeah and so if it forces an appetite where you're listening to a lot of stuff that explains why the evolution of how each album

slash movie it keeps evolving because like you're being introduced to so much music even if you're forced to be like oh wow I'd never thought to steal that or yeah because like

I would historically have just listened to a lot of the same stuff all the time just in the house you know you put on vinyl and I'd listen to a lot of the same stuff but like doing a show like that it does force you into like looking into

yeah look properly looking into stuff and it like for instance like I would use radio head as a big reference on the show and like radiohead has informed so many things like I'm sure I'm sure if Billy and Phineas were here I'm sure did mention Radiohead like to me that feels radioheady the way they you know we had this we were talking to Marcus Mumford a couple episodes ago because his that's I mean for anybody who was ever in a band like that's just the they're just the greatest you know I was saying the Ben's is there you know is one of the greatest song albums ever what version of radio head influenced you most? Oh, God.

What's the name of the song that I did on? I had one of the girls on my show or on the voice do. Karma Police. Karma Police, I think, is just genius. It's just hooky throughout. And I just love how he always takes his time in the verses and elongates

and that doesn't try to cram so many words into a sentence. I just love the way he thinks. And how you always think you're getting one song, but you get another song. And yeah, just the way he does things is really appealing on the ear. When you pitch songs, so much of it is like, you know, and maybe it's changed a little bit, but there's always this need to do something slightly R&B.

slightly like urban slightly hip hop something in there like everybody always like tries to do that in a pitch record and sometimes it's like you you listen to those songs that we're talking about those Laurel Canyon stuff it's like those songs are great and you listen to radio head those songs are great um mumford it's sense those songs are great there's no hip hop in it there's no rmb in it it's not everything has to be that and that's the pushing against the grain a little bit being like, yeah, I'm just going to be myself in it. And having the confidence to be like, no, I'm, I'm just me. And that's okay that you, pop music can be many things.

Yeah, no, 100%. And I'm the biggest pop music fan, but I'm also hugely influenced by that type of music. And like, I love hip hop and R&B, but I just don't think that I could, I could sell it. Like, I don't think I could sing that way. I don't, like, I don't, I can't riff or, you know, like, I just don't think I can, I can sell that. To you, what's a great song? Do you want me to name some?

Sure. I was thinking more compositionally. Oh, composition. Now I'm curious about the other question, but we'll start with that. Compositionally, what makes a great song? Obviously, a bit of a hook is always helpful. What made you walk away being like the song with Teddy

in explicit? Why did you feel? You know, feeling. You know, feeling. Just pure feeling. Like, I didn't think it was going to break the world with, like, the lyric or whatever. It just, it just, when you get that goose bump feeling, and every time you hear it, you feel the same. Like, I, like, I still listen to Oh, by Damien Rice.

Oh, yeah. that album just whatever way he's delivering it how is record i don't know whatever it is in it i just i just get that when you get that feeling i think that makes it a great song and um is that one of your island albums yeah yeah 100% what else would fit what are five albums that that you would take with you i take rumors for sure i think it's one of the best first of all time without shadow up there. I take Pet Sounds has to go

with it. I love Hotel California. Actually, the Eagles greatest hits. Yeah. Because you can get them off. And it's very much,

I think the Eagles, like, the Eagles greatest hits is like, I think it's not the biggest selling album of all time. Yeah, it's bigger than Thriller. That's, which is nuts. We take O by Damien Rice.

I wanted to join. ones maybe yeah joanie album not sure which one and heartbreak weather that's how we transitioned to heartbreak weather so um see how we do that what was so nice about nice to meet you coming out and sort of uh leading the way was that it was again like it felt like a a risk yeah you know it felt like it was dangerous and as you need to do that um Did you feel, did you feel that? Or was that just me as like a fan feeling like, oh, yeah, that's, that's a cool move? Yeah.

Or were you nervous releasing that? Always nervous releasing, but I like the risk in a way. It might not work in my favor. It might, I don't know. But I do like, well, it's not so much the risk. It's more, I want to be, I want to be the standout song in that. the in the chart at that time. If it's for the good or the bad, I don't know.

We don't know. We're yet to find out. But I like it when it comes out and it just, it doesn't sound like anything else. And I think that's, again, the same thing with Nice to Meet You. It didn't sound like anything else. It was very different. And I felt like that in the studio. Like I started playing the riff and Ruth Ann started just going, nice to meet you.

And it just became a thing. like it was just yeah but I just like the I just like being the one that stands out I don't know how what are your expectations when you release an album first of all that

the fact like my core group of friends love it and and can connect to the music lyrically and sonically and then the rest of it is a bonus because

nothing you know, the big hitty stuff is not, none of it's guaranteed. Actually, any of it's guaranteed. None of it's guaranteed. But that big hitty stuff is definitely not guaranteed. And I just really want to like the core group of fans to grab hold of it and make it make it their own versus it being a big commercial smash. Do you feel like, you know, on that album you have multiple songs that are, again, over 300 million, 350 million, 600 million, 600 million. It's like, it's so crazy.

It's mind-blown to me. What is a hit in this era to you? Like, what would be like a... Like, how do you define a hit in this era? Versus, like, when you first started, the world was very different. A very different place. Oh. It was very clear what makes you beautiful was a hit.

Yeah. It was a different time, I suppose, wasn't it? Totally. I mean, nice. to meet you is a hit. It has over 600 million streams. I didn't even know that. Yeah, it's a while.

I'm not a number of numbers. You're not just staring at your numbers all day? Yeah, funnily enough, no. I honestly, I got those Spotify plaques last year. I actually couldn't believe it when they arrived at the house. I was at what? I didn't think that that was even a thing for me. But what is a hit these days?

I don't know. Well, the good thing about it is what I like about whatever way in shape, form, people are listening to music, I always think that the good songs are still the winner.

Yeah, yeah. You know, you have big songs online that kind of come and go sometimes, but like a great song is, like, I mean, look what, look what Sumber did online.

Yeah, it's not. Like, he created that world and, you know, probably got signed off the back of being the guy you know on t-tick-tok and stuff like that but also guess what had absolutely genius songwriting in his bones can produce a song himself in his bedroom and had unbelievable songs or like uh like Alex Warren like ordinary like these are still ridiculously good songs so songs are the winner

always and put a little love on me it's one of those songs that's just it's such a good song. How did that song get written? I was playing the piano thing and I wrote the chorus at home and

and brought it to Jamie because if I get stuck somewhere but if I'm writing the bits of songs and if it's piano related it's always Jamie that first comes to my mind and Jamie doesn't live too far from me so I was able to go and see him and the two of us just had like a real

real moment writing that song actually it felt like a real the two of us were sat playing the same piano and it felt special at the time you know when you're sitting down and the two of us were just completely on the same page about what we were writing the song about and I don't really know how to put my finger on it but I just I remember writing that chorus and just thinking I hope this

I hope people really connect with this because this feels really, really special to me. It was just the two of us in a room. And I had, I came with the chorus. It's something about you British people who can do this. Like, there's that story where Dan Wilson said the same thing where Adele walked in

and she was like, I have these two choruses and like this one was rolling in the deep and this was someone like you. And he's like, I'll do this someone like you on if you don't mind do you know what i mean like it's like you come in and you're like oh i just happen to have this chorus it's like dude i live like four minutes from you man next time you have that okay i'll come down here what are you doing like yeah no uh kind of angry at you but also i understand you're out you were in the you were in your other house i don't um yeah i don't come up with

I have more melody with this one I actually had a chorus so that was helpful. I usually have a good concept in a verse. Well, come with me with the chorus. No, I'll take the good concept in my second. When you write a song, do you start from a concept? Well, I start with generally music first

that gives me, that provokes a thought because I find very hard to like match something like, I love you you love me to like you know what I mean like it would be I love you

you love me that's what it would end up sounded like we just oh my God we just written a hit but yeah

whoever takes that yeah it makes it inside I love you you love me yeah that's a 33%

33% and you know you guys can split your 3% good look with that but yeah no I would definitely like

pick play a progression of some sort and allow it to tell me what I'm writing about next. The show, you know, comes out and it's like, I feel like you're not finishing the third album and this one is again like you keep leveling up the maturity and the skill. It really sounds like it sounds like you've continued. When you're saying now, you're defining who. you are as an artist. It really feels really clear around this moment,

especially Heaven as a song, just like, man, that's like one of those songs that probably could have lived forever before. You know? Tell me about writing Heaven. We were in Joshua Tree. We rented an Airbnb, and it was me, John,

and Amy came for a couple of days, and she left, and Tobias came out. And, yeah, we're just, it was like a that was like a one a mer having like been at it all day and just digging huge holes and I was just going wrong and gang gang ganga danga danga dang and we started to slowly crack the code and I was like but then it ran it then it ran its course for a second as I'm going to bed John because you know I don't know if you've ever been to a right in camp with John yeah that guy had stayed up for a week he went for one D by the way there you go yeah that guy would

stay up for a week. Like if it meant, and he just goes, no, stick with this. Like, he was looking at me deadly serious. And finally, he, to be fair, he just went,

God only know. And straight away when he did that, I was like, all of a sudden, I'm pouring coffee. I'm here. I'm with you. You know, and you just hear that one little,

that one little melody that makes you stay. And we just stuck with it and we were up until five or six in the morning and just like, trying to nail this thing. And it just felt like it happened because we were just stuck in the same.

And it felt like we could sing anything over it. And I was just started singing the verses. I was going, like all mumbled for hours and hours. And then we just started to get into Beach Boys mode. Yeah, starting with God only knows and then having those harmonies in the record. You're like,

like a a proper homage we didn't like we didn't uh he just said god and i knows the beach boys thing was like a an a after stop but we did use the the reverb in east west on the on the harms that's sense which is so say and i walked into john's studio yesterday uh we're doing a we're doing a fan event this week and me and john are just playing the songs some of some of the new stuff and I walked into his studio and he's got a whole new tape thing in the corner where he's running reverb through but that all kind of came from heaven

and yeah that song it's just yeah it's a major fan favorite and it's one of my favorites it's like one of those melodies that you just can't get out your head I sound like I'm just bigging up my own stuff here but like

no but I mean Melody. My melody is melody. Yeah. Where else to do it in this? You go on tour and it's like, it's a worldwide tour and now you have three albums to support this. And it's also at this point, like, you're, the whole brand of Niles and individuals, pretty

like household, don't you think? Oh, I just never want to think that way. I don't know. Like, I'm still blown away, but like, I'm just trying to get you to take your foot off the panel. I'm not taking my foot off the pedal, Ross. I want to catch up, man. I won't do it.

No, like, for instance, like, I, like, for instance, like, I'm just like, I, was getting like ticket sales pre-sale numbers this morning from like for my next tour i was still just like oh my god what is going on like it's just an amazing feeling and it's i i love that it's shocking me i love that i'm blown away by it you're talking about how this next phase personally is is you know you guys are they're trying to seems like move on with with your with your with your personal life. Like you're, you're growing up. Are you going to have a family? I would like, I like the idea of course, yeah. Are you able to, you know, leaving, what is leaving home like going on tour right now? Is it hard? Yeah, I, uh, I definitely like to be at home more. Like,

I've become a homebody where it's like in my late teens, 20s, I was just wherever. I'll bring the suitcase, drag it around with me. Go to a party, bring a suitcase. We'll, go to a party, bring a suitcase, me, I'm flying somewhere after this. And that was just the way of my life was. And then, yeah, you meet that person and you start to put roots down and you just, and you want to be in that place, like, as much as possible. And I think what I've really gotten into is, like, striking that balance of, like, how I schedule my life now, you know, being able to make a record, making a record's one thing

because I'm like, you know, we can be anywhere doing that and that's how we made this latest record was kind of bounced around the world, renting houses in the middle of nowhere and doing it that way and I was able to be wherever. But, yeah, the touring thing at the start, you just kind of have to get into a bit of a rhythm. You know, she does it completely,

she's not in our industry at all, so it's a different story for her. And just trying to get like an understanding between each other and how it's going to work. And I think we did a pretty good job on the last tour. I know how long away is too long. And you just over the years, I remember we used to do like five, six shows a week and then be away for 10 years and then come back.

So insane. But you just kind of, that was great and it was fun at the time. But you just like, if you want to have some sort of a work-life balance. Work-golf balance. Work-golf life balance. You know, you have to do a bit of schedule and shifting and stuff like that. And I just, yeah, I enjoy it in a different way now. And I just, yeah, I get excited for going on the road and I get excited for making an album and I get excited for being at home.

And I've just figured out a way as I've gotten older, just through pure experience, how to fit all of those things into one spot. During the last tour, it was shortly after one of your shows that Liam passed away. Yeah. How is that affected touring or affected you? is like even just how i i i can't imagine it's you know it's losing a brother yeah obviously um extremely shocking and tough someone just someone that you know so well can be you know and it's only a couple of weeks older than you is just like no longer with us is just it's just a real thing to even think about um but it does it does it

it fires me up because I know that Liam loved being on stage and stuff like that. That would make me excited to get on tour and do it for the fans because I know that he loved it as much as I did. Yeah. Did you write it all about it for this next album? Yeah, I kind of danced around it for a while.

Me and John had this song called End of an era that was, we'd wrote myself, John and Julian, started the album. by being in Julian's place in Nashville and literally set up the band scenario and just started singing. And I was just singing this, singing all these melodies

and had this idea for like, kind of a song that was like, leaving your past behind, but kind of with nostalgia while being excited for the future and not overthinking either. And then I just, like the more we spoke about it and the more we kept getting it wrong.

Me and Julian, or Julian actually said it, he'd be like, this song is about Liam. We just don't know it yet. And we're kind of dancing around it subconsciously. But this song is about Liam.

And then this song was written in five minutes. And so that's what sometimes you have to do when you're writing a song is just get to the point. And once you've gotten to the point, you can write the point. And yeah, now the song is a completely different thing and it's a song of loss and fear of loss and the end of an era.

And it kind of has a, it's sad. One versus sad and one versus nostalgic. And they are two of the feelings I have when I think of Liam is sadness that he's not with us anymore. But also looking back at, and I just got goosebumps just got goosebumps right there, looking back at the good times of growing up together and doing all the things that we've spoke about for the last hour, of making records together and growing up together

in a mad industry and being all over the world and traveling and all the small moments that we had in hotel rooms and, you know, and being on stage and looking at each other on stage and like all of those things come flooding back in this song along with the sadness. But yeah, it's kind of, it's touching on both feelings. But it literally took Julian to go,

are we like are we blind what what are we doing it feels like we're trying to write something that and julian's very good at this like what is wrong with everyone are we not seeing what's right in front of us and once he said that honestly he was working on the drums inside and me and john went outside and we wrote the song in five minutes and it just makes so much sense now do you allow yourself to reflect on the one d days oh yeah i have uh I've got a good memory, so I remember a lot of places where we were, hotels we stayed in, certain gigs, like, it was amazing. It was just, it was so good. We were 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, whatever, just running around the world. And normal dudes just had this, as we always said, like normal guys had an abnormal job. And it was, we were like school kids all the time. We just haven't. having a great laugh. Do you guys have a text chain that's active?

Not completely active, like some of the WhatsApp groups I'm in, but, but yeah, no, there is definitely, like, we're good at, like, checking in on each other and see how everyone's doing. Because we, like, that's the only thing about what we do is anyone could be anywhere at any time. Like, you get to L.A., and you'll be like, I'm just arrived and they're like, well, I left last night. Like there's a lot of, you know, ships in the night stuff. So, but yeah, I definitely speak to them all, you know, every couple of weeks. When you, when you talk about you, not like some active, uh, active WhatsApp chains. What's your most active WhatsApp chain. Obviously, a couple of the boys from home is a big one.

But there's a wild one with like after hours in, in, in frenzy, you know, Andrew Hass John Julian has the strangest algorithm of all time he's just sending all sorts of weird stuff in Jamie Scott

and just kind of looking back at like photos and we were doing it this week just looking back at like photos that were taking of like trips that we went on to make this album and we would like

rent houses in like rented one outside of London and we rented we stayed in a hotel in Soho one time and we were like when we stayed in this house

in the countryside in the UK we like made up our own golf course. I know John's watching this laughing, but we like put like pots, like flower pots in places and made our own golf course and like with chip balls around. And just like looking back at the photos from that, it was just so funny.

So I would say that's a pretty, that's a pretty active one actually, that one. This is crazy because he texted at 152. It's the longest thing that I can't even read it. Oh. Well, do you know what? John Texan voice note. And I can never understand it.

It's just about him going, blah, blah, blah. And you know what he just talked about in it? Was that? He literally says, like, it goes, like, I'm just, like, trying to read it while, like, by, I'm like, I can't that focus. I'm like, what does that mean? Set up of an 18-hole golf course? Like, the first whole whole over a pond of water and got it.

Like, literally what you just described is what he wrote. So, you know. We did this all over to work. we make up our own little golf courses in the backyard of wherever we're staying and we do more of that than we do songwriting. It's funny actually on that trip we wrote dinner party, after a round of golf

of course. I'm excited to hear. I mean, like obviously dinner party comes out, the album comes out in two months. Yeah. You know, so it's pretty exciting, man. I can't wait. Like, I just want to get it out now

because, as you know, you spend so much time and you just want it and you just want it out and people to hear it. And I just, as I said, I'm at that point where I just want to make records get on the road, make records get on the road.

And it excites me, the prospect of getting back out in the road and seeing the fans again. Because in there, and, you know, obviously we know what's like behind the scenes, making records and,

you know, handing it in, doing marketing plans and mapping a tour and things like that. But the fans have been waiting for three years, like three years is a long time

in the eye of a music fan. Let's go with some rapid fire. Cool. I've enjoyed this. This is fun. Are you happy? Yeah, we should do this again. What's the lowest part of your career? Lowest part.

Yeah. When we were at least put a little love on me. What? Why is it the lowest part? Because I was convinced that it was going to be a big one. I honestly did. Yeah. And I, yeah.

I was actually genuinely upset about that. How did you get over to? Just keep playing it live and let, let, and the crowd would sing it of course, but I remember at the time just being like, oh, I thought that was it. I thought that was, I thought that was my someone you loved. I mean, you also, you know,

you mentioned rumors, rumors was their ninth album. That's crazy. Like, when people say that, I can't believe that. It's just like one of those things. Like, you have, you're on your fourth solo album, and you have like a slew of hits. Yeah, nuts.

But I, yeah, just that, I remember, like, actually being, because most of the time I'm kind of like, it is what it is. Like, but I remember writing that song and just going, this is it. Had myself convinced. What is something you learned about songwriting from those early days writing on a bus? That it can be done anywhere and doesn't need to be in a big studio and an idea can come from anywhere and just get the idea down when you get it.

When it comes to mind, just get it all down. And even if it comes in the middle and I just do it, I think that was a big one. I usually leave it and then forget it. But I've learned that if it comes, you just have to do it. Do you listen to music on a golf course? Always. What do you listen to?

One of those daily mixes, usually like, I know, I like the, I think the music I grew up on is good for playing golf. You're not making too much noise with it. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? There's no one on the next hole going, turn your fucking music down. You're listening to, I love you.

You love me. 33%. Call my lawyer. Just kidding. That's not really how it works. This feels weird. Now people are like, is that how it works? You have to call his lawyer?

What's advice you'd give somebody who is about to audition for a show right now? Do it. And it's the biggest cliche thing of all the time is be yourself, but you'd be surprised. like I be yourself and enjoy it because as I noticed on the voice obviously the level of singer on the voice is just through the roof

like some of the best singers you've ever heard like technically gifted singers I've seen on that show but there's a level of seriousness that comes with technicality that people when they come on the show they kind of can't drop like they take it so serious

because they're so technically gifted and if you try and relax into it you become your authentic self and you sing the way you sing the song and don't try and over flip and trick it do your somersaults across it just be yourself enjoy the process and sing the song would be my would be my main advice well thanks for doing this podcast i know uh the people that you surround around yourself with, they're such good humans. And those good, you know, good humans attract each other. And so it's exciting to see what you've done. You know, I know you've played golf at like the NMPA tournament. And, you know, that's like, it's hard to get artists to do advocacy for songwriters. Oh yeah. I'm huge on that. And so on behalf of the songwriting community,

thank you for not being silent. Absolutely. And, uh, and show. showing up literally to those events. But, you know, man, I'm just, I'm, I'm proud to see this growth that you've done. And it's, this is only your first interview. We'll do it. We'll do it again. But, man, hell yeah, I'm so excited to hear the new album. Congrats.

That's sounded to you. Thanks very much, put. There you go.