And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 251: Myles Smith | Stargazing, Therapy, and The Secret Cost of Success

Episode Date: May 26, 2026

Today's guest is a rising star who's risen so fast he's not really rising anymore — he's just a star.From a bedroom in Luton playing $50 nylon-string covers and open mics playing for 4 people... Three years later: a billion streams, "Stargazing" on President Obama's summer playlist, two singles that took over pop radio before he'd ever made a debut album, and a debut album sourced from the notes he wrote in therapy that saved him.He's proof that sometimes all you really need is a guitar, a work ethic, and a Taco Bell-poisoned night in Malibu to write a song people argue about in twenty languages.And the writer is... Myles Smith!If you've ever wanted something so badly you didn't think to ask what it would cost when it arrived — this is the conversation.And The Writer Is... Myles Smith!In this episode of And The Writer Is, we go deep on:• Why he scrubbed every song he made before 2023 — and what "I didn't exist before 2023" actually means• His advice for up and coming artists...• The end-of-Covid breakdown at 18 that almost ended things — and the therapy notes that became My Mess, My Heart, My Life.• Meeting Peter Fenn on the last day of a six-week US trip — and writing "My Home" in the first hour• The Taco Bell food-poisoning night in Malibu that produced "Stargazing"• The hidden cost of success on his relationships• "Hey mom, I want to retire you" — and what she said backAnd much more...Hit subscribe and turn on notifications. Every week, we go deep with the most interesting creatives in music.Follow us on socials: @andthewriterisA special thank you to our sponsors for making these conversations possible.Our lead sponsor, NMPA — the National Music Publishers' Association. Your support means the world to us.CHAPTERS0:00 Intro2:21 My Mess, My Heart, My Life.3:16 The pressure of being "right at the start of the journey"4:35 "If you take away the hits, you could see where I really am"4:54 "I wake up some days in a catastrophe"6:01 The five albums he wore out7:23 His mum, his absent dad, and a single-parent household8:22 Singing in church with his grandma11:41 First talent show: Fix You by Coldplay13:01 The $50 nylon-string guitar that started it14:02 Playing "Dream Girl" for his mum at 1015:23 Growing up Black in Luton and the Labrinth Electronic album that broke his brain open18:45 Open mics at 11 — his mum driving him to every one20:18 Why open mics built him in a way the algorithm can't21:43 "I was really lucky that I got to fail a thousand times"22:30 The first real gig — 100 cap, 90 friends and family, indie band Bear with a Three29:18 Covid, isolation, rock bottom30:44 Therapy — and the notes that became the album33:06 Trust issues, anxiety, the night at 18 he tried to "ctrl alt delete on life"35:12 What he'd say to 18-year-old him36:55 The videographer who pushed him to try TikTok37:25 "I'm not trying that shit" — and the Sweater Weather cover that changed everything40:24 How he paved his way onto an Amber Run tour with one recorded song43:40 NMPA mid-roll44:22 The day his career actually started: meeting Peter Fenn46:08 "Music with other people is supposed to be fun" — Peter's first lesson49:01 "My Home" — written in the first hour of meeting Peter54:48 After Stargazing: "stuck in the future"60:06 Brain scans, burnout, smiling through it all62:30 "Hey mom, I want to retire you" — and what she said63:31 The UK artists who don't love being famous — Ed Sheeran, James Bay, Niall Horan66:12 Are you happy?78:29 "I hated Niall Horan" — and why80:11 Rapid fire83:32 Meeting his wife with all this happening85:00 The album as the closing of the first chapter90:46 Pulling up the old voice memos92:02 The Taco Bell night that became "Stargazing"95:39 The biggest pinch-me moment of the last three years98:06 Ross and Joe tape notesWatch on Spotify. Spotify Premium users get no commercial breaks on our show.CREDITS BLOCKCredits:Hosted by Ross GolanProduced by Joe London & Jad SaadEdited by Jad SaadPost-Production VFX by Pratik Karki Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

How are you feeling with the pressure? Every day is a different day. I wake up some days and I catastrophize them like, this is all going away tomorrow. And that's like a really real feeling and it scares me and I get super anxious. And then some days I wake up and I'm like, I'm exactly where I'm supposed to be.

I never started my career for like critical mass. I started because I had something to say. It's crazy that this is only the beginning. Towards the end of COVID, and I felt myself like really hitting rock bottom during it. during it. When I was 18, it was probably the scariest time of my life because I, you know, tried to press Control, Alt, delete one life. And then I was like, fuck it, I have to face for demons. This whole album's written on the notes from like my therapy throughout that time.

How are you dealing with it now? Stargazen had come out. I quickly remember not long after it peaked, I had this massive empty feeling and it was like, how do I do that again? It's good that it happened fast. It's got to be good, right? If I'm telling you the honest truth, it's, I feel not enough people talk about the scary side of having a hit. What would you say to 18 year old you now? This season is presented by NMPA, the National Music Publishers Association.

Champions of songwriters and publishers everywhere. Welcome to And The Writer is. I'm your host, Ross. Today's rising star has risen to stardom and is not really a rising star anymore because he's currently a star you can stargaze at. He's proof that sometimes all you really need is a guitar, a work ethic, and a velvet voice. In a world where everybody's fighting to be louder, he's figured out a way to be heard. All the way from the United Kingdom, this artist surrounds himself with good people. So it's not surprising the music is good too.

And the writer is Miles Smith. That was most creative intro I've ever had anywhere. Yeah. All right. Still batting, you know, 200 or something like that. The album is wrapped. Yes. It's been a lot of work.

It's being a crazy amount of work to get here, but it feels good to like finally be done with it. Okay, so my mess, my heart, my life. The track list is set. And you've been working on this album since we started hearing your music, it feels like, why is it so hard to put out albums? Yeah, no, it's real tough. Honestly, it was like a bit of a conversation around the album because it, like,

for me, commercially, it would have made sense to, like, have Stargazing and then nice to meet you and then an album. But, like, I never started my career for, like, critical mass is what they call it when, like, people really want an album. I started it because I had something to say. And I've always done music before anyone cared. And so I want it to take the time to get it right. I want to go back and tell your story a bit. But you're riding on this high right now.

Because people don't usually have hits. And then they really don't follow up hits with other hits. How are you feeling with the pressure of just the process of where it's at? It's really weird. There's like a lot of like pressure, but then there's a lot of like calm as well. It's like, it's a real privilege to start my career in the way that I did and, you know, have like sort of now the freedom both creatively and professionally to sort of like do what I want and, you know, have that certain amount of like freedom in my label relationship and management relationship and what I do.

But I guess then the pressure comes from the fact that people forget that I'm right at the start of the journey and so there's this like huge expectation for whatever I do to be like phenomenal and the best thing ever but for me is like I've never done an album before and I'm like still figuring stuff out so it's like a really weird dichotomy where if you take away the hits you can see where I really am as an artist and that's how I view it but for a lot of people external to me it's like they're like you must produce the best thing that we've heard ever and I'm like it's just not realistic. I'm still figuring this out. That's an amazing quote. And that idea that if you take away the hits, you know who I really am as an artist is pretty brilliant. That might be true with all

artists in some level. It's like it's not always the, it's not always the hit that defines you. You know, it's the song that you like most that doesn't work. That you're like, you know, are you putting the pressure on you Or do you feel it's more external? Every day is a different day. I wake up some days and I catastrophize them. Like, this is all going away tomorrow. And that's like a really real feeling and it scares me and I get super anxious. And then some days I wake up and I've got a more level head and I'm like,

I'm exactly where I'm supposed to be. And I think I exist in a really weird generation of artist where like we don't really prioritize albums like we used to, but we grew up on them. So it's like I've grown up with like the history of like, I love albums, albums what I consume. I love artists for their B-sides and the records that no one hears and that's the norm. But I'm sort of growing in a market where it's like single, single, single, single. So it's like my brain's telling me I want to do what I've always seen and loved, but I've got to do what right now requires. And it's like a really horrible spot to be in if I've been completely honest.

Oh, interesting. Yeah, so it's, you know, heavy is. the crown or whatever the saying is, when you say you grew up on albums, what albums did you grew up on? What are your five albums that you wore out? It's going to show you how young I am. So, like, for me, nostalgia is like Green Day American Idiot and 21st Century Breakdown and, you know, parachutes by, you know, Coldplay and, you know, Barble, Mumford and Sons and Electronica, Flabrymph. And, you know, the list goes on and is endless. And I won't do the typical. thing where people name like five Bonnevar albums to see Mindy. Like we all listen to them,

but it doesn't define me. But, you know, I listen to such a plethora of music. And yeah, just hearing things from real people is always what sort of like turn me on. Let's go from the beginning. You're, uh, you're, you were born, you were born. Yeah, I was born. That was the start. Yeah. I think you do. You too, man. Thanks, man. I feel pretty honored. Pretty fast. Every year that there's a birthday, you're like, all right, better than the alternative. 100%. Okay, so wait, you were born in the UK, in London, right? Yeah, man, I made out the sack straight into Luton. That's where I was sort of born and raised. It's like a really small town near to London. So it's like, London's close enough. You could like look at it and be like,

wow, London. And if anyone asks you, say you're from London, but far enough way that you're still broke. So it's like a really cool spot because you have no money, but you have all of the friendship and culture in the world. So what did your parents do? Uh, so my mom worked in like, sort of like schools and then as she got older, moved into like consultancy and stuff. And my dad, I'm not really sure. I never really had a relationship with him when I was like, off conscious age. So yeah. Yeah. What about siblings? Siblings, uh, brothers in like sort of like management and consultancy. And then my sister the same. So very, like, professional 9 to 5 worker family.

So your mom took care of all those kids solo? Yeah. How? I still don't know the answer to that to this day. And she did it so well, you know, like, there's a big age gap between me and the oldest. So, you know, I'm 2070s, 36 now. So, like, yeah, she had all three of us and she managed to look after us, give us all, like, equal attention and all sort of, like, went on to do great things in life. So she's like a superwoman in the midst of like a crazy divorce and like, you know,

hard financial times and stuff. I generally don't know how she did it. Who introduced you to the idea of actually singing or actually playing music? Yeah, I started singing sort of like, I used to go to church and my grandma growing up. So like during like the separation of my parents, like my grandma's like house became like sort of like a place that I'd be most days of the week because they were. figuring their shit out. And so, like, my grandma was, like, hardcore religious, you know, like, amen before every meal. Like, you'd be, like, starving at the dinner table that I just

want to eat. And she's like, here's a five-minute prayer we're going to say. And he's just, like, looking at the bowl sweating, like, now I'm fucking hungry, bro. But she was, like, religious as hell. And she took us to church every Sunday. And it was only during church, like, got into, like, singing. And you don't really know if you're good or not. You just sort of feel. it and you're in the emotion of it and you know it's not about being technical and no music you just sort of do it and uh eventually you do it for so long that when you start singing outside of church and people start going oh you're okay and stuff you're like oh i can sing how old are you when when when is this window probably like six till like nine is when i started like singing in church

and then you know going from church like school assemblies and choirs and stuff and used to do Are you religious? I was growing up, I think, at this age, I'm sort of like at anyone that is my age. I've got so many questions and so many things that like, you know, happen in my life that it sort of like makes me doubt a lot of things. But I think at my core, I still am and I'm super like spiritual in that. I still believe in something. And I live and lead my life like super morally.

and most of like the way a live life is still religiously. Music in churches really, it really changes depending which church you're in. And I'm always envious because the music I grew up with in a religious setting was mostly minor keys and just not like, you know, you don't hear a lot of people being like, oh my God, I learned it really well at synagogue. Like that's not like, that's not really how that. But when I think of like a church, like the music can range from being balk to being, you know, you know, who's big right now, forest is big right now. Like church music could be all kinds of things.

What kind of church music did you grow up with? Like, I grew up black as fuck as well. So like we had rhythm and rhyme and soul. So, you know, all of like the church music we listened to was like all sort of like major keys and like use a bunch of fists and like everything. just felt like coming of age, if that makes sense. And so it was good feelings. And I think a lot of that translates my music now and like harmonies and the way that songs move and, you know, landing on hope and all of those sorts of things.

So like, yeah, church for me from early doors was like, felt like freedom. Yeah, it also, it's just, I mean, it just makes often these really big melodies because you're in really memorable choruses because, you know, people have to. sing along the stuff and they're, I'm just jealous. So you leave, you know, when you're saying it's when you're singing out of church, when people are like, hey, you're pretty good. Yeah. You're only nine years old at that point. You're doing things like you're singing in school, doing like what? So they used to do like little school talent shows and I used to love going there and doing that stuff. What song did you sing in your first talent show? My first talent show.

Oh, I was probably like, Fix You by Coldplay. And then not long after when I got into like senior school, which is like 11 years old in the UK, like I remember specifically it was billionaire by Bruno Mards. Yeah, and that shit went off. Yeah, oh, I'm sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That song is still great. Shout up, Phil.

So you're going, you're doing these songs. When did you start thinking you could write? Writing came pretty naturally, actually. So I got to about 10 years old, I want to say, and I tried, like, sports. So, like, football, basketball, rugby. And I was, like, terrible at, like, the lot. And then it was, like, swimming. And then I was, I wait, I'm black.

So that didn't work. And then a bunch of other stuff. And I just kept getting to this point where I do it for a few weeks. It didn't work. And I was like, I'm not going to do it. Like, and so my mom just pushed me towards, like, hey, like, well, you love singing. So, like, how about, you know, you try an instrument. So I picked the guitar and we didn't have much money at the time, but I remember going down and I think it was called like a famus or something.

It was like in dollars, it was like $50 guitar. And it was like nylon string classical because at that time I didn't know the difference between a steel string and a nylon. I was like, damn, this fretboard's huge, but yeah, I'll go with it. And when I started playing guitar, what I used to do is I used to like go on YouTube and like learn like covers, but then just replaced the covers with my own words. and that's like how I started songwriting. So not really understanding the difference between lyric and melody and just being like, mom, I wrote a song in the exact same melody as a hit song. But I did that.

And then naturally I just then took the chords and write my own melodies and et cetera and et cetera. And it grew and it grew and it grew. Yeah, that's really interesting because there are a lot of professional songwriters where that's how they've made a living is taking existing melodies and rewriting. lyrics around them. So, you were already training for this job. What was the first song that you wrote where you actually played it for your mom that you remember? Yeah, there was a song I wrote called Dream Girl.

How does it go? It was... Oh, man, there's a guitar right there. How did that get there? Is it in tune? Play the first song. Yeah, it was... I remember second verse some reason, but it was...

Like, it was half night, winter night, and it felt cold, it didn't feel right. So I text again just to say, I need you in my life every day. Oh, oh, you are my dream girl. Yeah, there you go. How old are you? 10. Why does it come so naturally? I don't know.

I think I've always listened to big hook music, you know? It's like even in the B-sides that I love, they always had like great hooks. And one of my earliest sort of like things that I latched onto was an album by Labyrinth called Electronic Earth. Yeah, that's so good. Yeah, it's amazing. And still to now, it baffles me how that record wasn't even bigger than it was. But with that, it was like, I grew up in Luton, like, as a young black kid. And at that time, it was like my role models and examples were all like rap, trap, trap, hip hop drill.

And, like, when Labyrinth came around in the UK, it was like one of the first examples of a guy who looks like me and sounded like me, make him pop. And it, like, blew my mind. And I went to go see him, like, live, a little pop-up thing that my mum took me to. And I was like, he plays guitar as well. I was like, mom, black people play guitars. I was like, what? And then she schooled me, not long after. And yeah, listening to that album and, you know, there were songs like, you know,

vultures and treatment and, you know, sweet riot and every single song is just like, you hear it once and you remember all of it. And I think that came out super close to when I started songwriting. And I think that's why I've always prioritized songs that, like, you can remember them after you listen, could it just does something for me. Do you feel pressure? Do you feel pressure to do music that people expect a black person to make in like a stereotypical way? No, I've always liked doing the opposite actually.

That's always done something for me. And I think it's really difficult because you sort of grow up and you see examples and you're like, oh, that's what black people make, that's what white people make. And then you do a, like, you get older and you start learning about the history of music where it comes from. You're like, well, all of this is just bullshit anyway. And so now it's like I just try to place myself in feelings and emotions and whatever genre that may be or sound that may be or sonic is like where I find myself living. And I chase a feeling rather than, you know, all of the other bits around it. Okay. So let's get to the, you know, you start playing some of these songs, you know, at 10 years old, you're playing that for like just your mom or are you playing this as a school?

Do you ever play this at the talent show? Yeah, I played actually in a class assembly, which is like all the kids in the school in like one hall. And like I played it because the teacher was like, oh, you're really good, you should play. Like with the girl that I wrote it for in the assembly. And it was like the most embarrassing thing in retrospect. And it did it work. Did you say this is for you? I was looking at her during it.

And like, it definitely was not the move. And at 10 years old, I had no place to be staring someone in the eye singing, you are my dream girl. yeah but well now it'd be weird for the record at 10 to do that to another 10 year old that makes a little more sense now I'd be like yeah yeah

that's but that's so balzy and it's so good like I bet that that now woman is like holy shit he wrote a song for me when I was 10 probably yeah I've never actually thought about that. Yeah. Well, we could probably connect some dots. This is incredible. Now I

remember that. When was the idea of, maybe this is what I want to be when I grew up? I think that idea came like sort of when I started to do open mics and stuff like that. So I got to about 11, 12 years old and there used to be like sort of like daytime open mics and evening ones. And I used to, mom used to like drive me all around like our local. town and, you know, take me to them because she knew that I really loved doing it. And so I was playing like eight or nine open nights, like open mics a week in all the neighbour in towns and back home and like we'd go after school and she'd take me and like we'd go on the weekends and she'd take me. And then eventually I bumped into my now guitarist Joe, who also used to run those

circuits and he was like a few years older than me. So he was like 16. So I, and she like eventually let me start going with him because we'd been in the same place so many times and like he used to like make agreement with like the bar owners and the pub owners like hey like he's not old enough to get in but like we come in through the back door he plays a few songs and get out can we do that and so we'd start doing that and I think I used to just love like the three or four people who would like really enjoy the music and be like this feels like you know electric and uh the more I did it the more I was like, holy snap, like imagine doing this as a living, and that's where that seed was planted. Open mics are where a lot of singer-songwriters come up.

It's honestly super fun. Sometimes you'd show up to open mic, and you wouldn't even get to go on stage. Sometimes you'd go, you'd get your three songs in, and, you know, if you're any good, the people there are like, what are you doing here, you know? And you get your reps and kind of like how a comedian does with their open mics. 100%. And now a lot of people don't really have that opportunity because they're told that they should memorialize this growth moment

on the internet. And they don't get the opportunity to fail a million times over. You know, it's not as, you know, explain why open mics are so important for singer-songwriters on the come-up. I think it's one of the most important steps in a job. journey and it really scares me like for the artists who are going through it who goes straight from like, I don't know, TikTok or Instagram to playing to two, three hundred cat venues because yeah, that's really cool. But there's so much that you learn just from being in a room with like

someone who's miserable drinking a Guinness and like having to convince him you're the next star with like a half broken voice. Like there's something about, you know, having a bad night or having a really good night that just teaches you, like, in the live space, like, crowdwork, you know, and how to, like, you know, move a crowd and how to, like, add peaks and dips to your set and, you know, how to really build a live performance like a show. But then in the music side, open mics are great for, like, you write a little song on your guitar at home and you could take it out on the road and you could, like, test it is a good song or not and have fun with it that way. And even be confident to present your music and not everything feeling like life and death,

because I feel like, and even I'm subject to it now, you know, as an artist, there's no real scope for failure that exist anymore. And it's really a scary place that you could have something amazing. And then you do what is a natural course of being a writer and put out something that okay or average or not good. And suddenly the world shifts. And that's a really weird thing that we've like almost like, engineered an environment where failure can't exist or people are scared to fail.

And I was really lucky that I got to fail a thousand times before I ever played my first show. Yeah, that's amazing. When do you play your first set where you're sort of the headliner? Oh, it was a... Even if it's at a coffee shop. Yeah, no, it was definitely manufactured. It was like a 100 capacity venue in a small town because St. Orban's. And like 90 out of the 100 people were friends and family that I'd convinced to

paid a tenor to come and see me. So it was like, but here was my headline. Yeah, yeah. But they loved it. Yeah, they loved it. And, you know, it was me and I was in like a really, like, shitty indie band at the time. What was the band called? It was called Bear with a three. Okay. Yeah. And we be played and it

was like one of the most exhilarating things ever. And it was just super awesome to see it all come together. And at that time, you know, like in the way that music used to be when I grew up, it was like, your local band playing to 100 people, like, that's your North Star of where you want to go. Like, that is a successful career, you know, and it's like all of these famous people seem like they're in another world. And it's like, I used to think, if I could make it to that 100 cap venue, I've made it, you know, and that was such an amazing and tangible feeling to chase. And yeah, that was my first sort of like gig experience. All the people you,

said when I said what albums do you like you named you know Cole play and Mumford and Sons and Green Day and all these bands and here you are in a you know then you were in a in a band during you know what you say bear yeah yeah you know it's like another band you know uh why aren't you in a band I feel like I'm selfish in a way that music is so personal to me that I quickly realized I love all the parts of a band like playing live together and you know creating a live set together and you know going out on the road and having fun parts and bits your day but when it comes to the studio like and writing music I I hated the feeling of I had to share this like to open up like if I wanted to say something it it was a communal discussion and I felt

really quickly like I can't feel fulfilled making music that way where I have to compromise what I have to say. Yeah, yeah. It's an interesting choice to, maybe not even choice, like a revelation or, you know, maybe I belong being different, you know, especially when you were sort of North Stars are bands.

Yeah. At what age did you say, okay, I'm going to start releasing my own stuff. Sorry, guys, I'm going to, like, this is actually me. Yeah. I did for a period between, like, 18 and like 20, like, released my own stuff. And it was like not the music I make now.

It was like me figuring it out. Like, what was the like? Oh, dude, like I said, I was, I grew up in Luton. So I was like making like melodic rap and trap and hip hop and stuff. Like, I could spit. Like, you know, I could freeze out. What's a song that you did at that time? They were like, this is a hit, but it wasn't a hit.

From like one that I heard or one that I wrote myself? That you wrote yourself. Oh, I had a song called Scar. which I really love. How did that go? It was like, I know, I know right now

can you turn the lights on the oxal over? You know how I like there. Anything that's so low. I would need to like get it up somewhere. Remember it? Yeah. It was sick.

I remember it. Is that stuff still available? No, that was cleansed. Just like my LinkedIn. That's gone. I didn't exist before 2023. It's like you're like Jason Bourne or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Who said you had to cleanse all that stuff? Was that you? That was me, yeah. I felt like it was a really cool chapter in my life to experiment with just like putting out music and things like that. But there was also the part of me and I do this quite a lot in life. It wasn't reflecting who I was. I thought it was really cool.

but as this is music I was like it's not really what I want to say or who I sound for as a person it just sounds really cool and I think when I came back to it again when I was like 24 I really had something to say and I think that was always my biggest

blocker as a musician like I went from like 11 to 16 writing really intimate songs that sound a lot like what I do now and then I hit like 17 and you know you go to like university and you start, you know, reinventing yourself and stuff. And I was making music for that period of my life.

And then you grow up and realize, what am I doing? And that's when I, yeah, starting my career. Yeah, I moved out here and I was, the songs were super intimate. You know, it was, there was a vibe. It was, it was very specific to what I ended up sounding like much, you know, later. But I ended up going to school here and there were some bands. of my school, it became really famous. I was like, I want to sound like them.

And I totally ended up, like, changing. And I remember I met a producer when I first moved out here who had done Counting Crows and some of these big bands in the 90s. And it was like, you know, he wanted to work with me. He was introducing to me. And then I was like, well, yeah, but what if I sounded like this? And he's like, yeah, I'm not feeling it. I was like, no, all the cool bands are doing this.

And then I spent years, like, kind of scratching, like, a ceiling where I was, like, pretty close. And it wasn't until I was like, I'm going to, just do my own thing. Yeah. When I started sounding like me again, and that's when I got my first record deal. Yeah.

It's like a weird vulnerability that I feel like artists need to, if they're really authentic to themselves, that's your fingerprint. 100%. And you sync or swim with that. Yeah. And not everybody's made to be successful at it. It's not like I sold a shitload of records as an artist,

you know, but like not everybody's made to be successful, but if they're at least authentic to themselves, they won't be like anybody else. A million percent. And I think what was confusing about that stage and why I always say now I chase a feeling rather than genres and sonics is like, I was like heavily listening to like black, like six lack,

and, you know, Bryson Tiller and St. John, like they were like filling my brain. And I was like, I love how their music makes me feel. But I think back then I was failing to decipher how it made me feel and, what they were and I think I was trying to be them, but what I was really trying to do it is emulate the feeling that the music gave me. And I think that I've been able to do that with music now and be like,

oh, I just love how that makes me feel, not necessarily I need to make that sound. How much did COVID and that life, you know, everything gets shut down, and this is really where you're going through that self-discovery as a musician. How did finding yourself as a musician and as an artist, how was that affected by the isolation of COVID? COVID for me was a really stressful one because I not long broke up with my girlfriend at the time. I was like on the other side of the country from my family

and I was like living alone for all of it. So I had a lot of time. And I at that time, like an idiot, thought TikTok was just a dancing app. So I didn't even engage with it during COVID. Like my whole TikTok journey started after that. I pissed away COVID pretty much on Zoom like when my friends playing drinking games closed my laptop and just being in my room like

I'm really alone right now and you know a lot of sort of like when you have that much time to think so much trauma was coming back so much like family issues were coming back and I was like in a really really bad place during all of it and so I just like piss away my day is playing Fortnite because I was like I don't want to think about any of this stuff and sort of towards the end of COVID

I sort of started virtual counseling and therapy. And I think it was like the best thing I ever did because I felt myself like really hitting rock bottom during it. And COVID became like this really cathartic experience where I was like, tried to drink it away. Then I tried to like play games and distract myself. Then I tried to do the thing where like you get fit during COVID. I went in like one run and I was like, I'm not getting fit.

And then I was like, fuck it, I have to face my demons. And yeah, started therapy during COVID. And, you know, not having the pressure. of like, you know, talking about stuff at home when your mum's there about this stuff that, you know, happened when you were a child was like, oh, I could talk about this freely and, you know, not having a girlfriend around so you could talk about, like, how your relationship's impacting you and you can speak freely. It just allowed me to have a really direct conversation with my counselor, like, pretty much like every other day, which was awesome.

When you say you were across the country from your family, where were you? I was in Nottingham, so I don't know, many people know the UK well, but like, London's right at the bottom and then Nottingham's right in the middle. Why are we there? So I was going school up there and then I got a job up there after. So yeah, the year I left school was COVID. And dealing with your demons, you know, the trauma, why hadn't you been able to deal with it before?

I think I've always been like high functioning. So like I get really like, I have to feel my time. And I'm really good at doing it. And as soon as things go quiet, I'll find something else to like fill my time. And this was a one time in my life. I wasn't able to fill it with anything because a well had closed down. And then it all hit me like like a wave. How are you dealing with it now? A lot better. I think, you know, between COVID and, you know, the start of my like career taken off was like I spent a lot of time in therapy and like working through things. I was able to unpack a lot and to work through a lot and, you know, it's not album promo,

even though I probably should be like, oh my God, listen to the album. But, you know, this whole album's written on the notes from like my therapy throughout that time. Wow. And like it really helped me understand who I was and where my flaws were as a human being and what I could do to improve it. And yeah, that period was really amazing. What were your flaws? And I still got loads, but like, my main floor is like, you know, I had crazy trust issues, you know, like that sort of like, you know, stemmed from a whole bunch of stuff, like insecurities and my anxiety was like terrible.

Like I got to the point I'd go out in public and I'd like just be shaking like violently because like the idea of people like looking at me and then thinking people are thinking things about me and like it stopped me from going outside. quite a bit and like depression got really bad like when I was 18 was probably the scariest time of my life because you know I you know tried to press control alt delete on life to you know say in the easiest way and that was the first I went therapy and then I went you know to an emergency therapist and you know you do like six weeks with them just so that you don't like finish you know complete the game and you know but I didn't really deal with anything I just learned how not to be that bad. So when I got to this batch of therapy and I learned about my floors, you know, the trust issues, the insecurities, the anxieties, you know, the, the, my flippantness and like my switch to being

like really hot and cold with everyone all the time and not letting people in and taking on too much. Like, I was just a huge list of stuff and it all stem back to like things I just hadn't dealt with. How incredible to go from not wanting to go. in public because of being afraid of, you know, having anxiety around how people perceive you potentially to then having hits and performing in front of

thousands and thousands. Do you... What would you say to 18-year-old you now? Oh, damn. Uh, uh, no, uh,

down, I never really thought about it. But I was speaking to 18-year-old me now, it'd probably just be like, I know, you're doing a good job, you know, and like, life's tough and is hard. And, you know, there's things that are really tough and complicated and things do get worse before they get better. And, you know, SSRIs take a while to adjust to. But you'll get through it. when you said your notes in those therapy sessions are the basis of this album

what was the first song you wrote during that phase where you're like oh this is getting me out of this because presumably it's the music that that helped you move forward what's the first song they were like this feels different the first song on the album or pre the album

I don't know. I mean, during that phase, wherever, if it's on the album or not. But there's a moment, you know, when that therapy's sort of unlocking the door and then walking through it seems to be this next phase of your music career. So what was it like walking through the door? Walking through the door was like a really strange thing. I think there was still a lot of character traits of like, you know, being overly busy. and like, you know, rushing through life and not being in the moment that, you know,

stuck around for a while. But genuinely, I think the moment I fell back in love with music, like, properly, like, properly was like when I remember had a conversation with my friend Naya, who's like a really good friend. And I was starting to, like, write music in my room again and stuff like this.

And he was starting like a little, like, sort of like production company sort thing. And he was like, like we used to do a music video together. I was like, oh what for like one of my songs? And he was like, yeah, like, why not? It was like, I'm trying to do stuff. You're trying to do stuff.

Let's do it. And like we did a couple and it was like really fun and it felt really good. And it was just like, he always was telling me like, dude, like, you should like really do this thing for real. Like, and I always used to be like pushing it off because like you don't want to face a disappointment. And he'd just coach me and coach me to just keep going and going and going. And then one day he goes, you should try to tip.

TikTok. And I was like, I'm not trying that shirt. It was like, no, you should. Seriously. I was like, I'm not getting up in the morning just doing all that stuff. I was like, that's not me. All that, all that bullshit. And he was like, dude, no, just put your music on there and see what happens. And yeah, I saw what happened. And yeah, it felt really good to like have ownership back of like, this is my thing. I'm going to do it. And it's not for people. It's for myself. and then people fell in love with it. And it was just like really nice to just be like, I'm just doing this because I enjoy doing this.

Yeah, I mean, you choose to do, by the way, I love the dance movie. I now feel like I know we're going to do the hour after this interview. And I hope that we, you know, we got a lot of songs to choose from with the album. We should definitely. But this is going to happen. Okay, so you, but you do, you know,

the cover of sweater weather feels like that's like the first time you know that that's like a really viral moment yeah um shout out jesse just been on this podcast tell me about that moment where it's like oh these numbers are not are no longer 100 people in a room yeah that when i first posted sweater weather that it just like took off like a rocket um and that's like the first instance of i was like oh, TikTok isn't just like a thousand people and 500 of which are from Luton saying, good job. I was like, this is really a thing around the world. And I was just like, okay, let me just check it wasn't for luck.

So I did it again. I was like, oh, it's happened twice. And I did it again and again and again and again like eight times. To the point it was like, I'd grown like 100,000 followers off like 30 seconds of this one song. And I was like, this is absolutely nuts. And then I was like, let me try my own song. Did nothing. And I was like, okay.

Which was the song at that point? Is that memories or is that that later? That comes just a little bit after. So what's the first song that you're like, huh? They're not really reacting to the. It was just something at home. Yeah. Just something at own.

Didn't really react. And then I did memories, which was a track that I saw like, it was my first ever single. And it was just a song that I loved. You do that with Adam? Yeah. you get in the room with that guy? Yeah.

I mean, is it from TikTok that people are starting to say, like, yeah, I'll write with this guy. Yeah, no. So what had happened is that when all of these covers and things were starting to take off, my management, the current management, Eric Parker had, like, reached out. And he'd be like, dude, you're really cool. I want to help you, like, make your own stuff, basically.

And so what had happened is that I'd done, like, a bunch of, like, co-writes that he had sort of, like, set up. And then I worked with Adam and Adam was like super awesome and we did the session out in his garden and it just felt really cool and really right. And I still feel like it was too early to like really know what I wanted to sound like and who I wanted to be. But I think I just wanted to put something out because I didn't want to be classified as like a TikTok cover kid. Like it was something that was really like conscious on my mind that I don't want to just be known as like, I could sing someone else's song really good, because I've been writing songs at this point for like, you know, 12, 13 years.

And so I wanted to put something out. And the schedule of it coming out was dictated by the fact that I blacked my way onto a support tour at the time. So there was a band called Amber Run who, like, I absolutely loved. And, like, they'd obviously seen that I was doing something on TikTok. And I was like, yeah, dude, like, I've got loads of songs that me come on tour with you. I hadn't had one recorded at this point. So, like, I was, like, working backwards in order to try and, like,

get to a place where I could go on tour with them like three months from when I did that. It's weird when you have a deadline. I see people make the mistake of I've got this one show, so I want to have the album done by July 1st. And so I'm going to, I will finish this album, whether it's good or not by this time. But that said, having a deadline gets somebody really working. You know, are you then writing a lot of new music or are you more trying to record stuff that you had already written? A bit of both, a bit of both. A bit of both. a bunch of new music, but also recording stuff that I'd written before. And, you know, most these tracks, like, never came out that I'd told them, but they

hadn't come out. And I think it's because, again, a bit like where I landed after Sargey's and nice to meet you, and a bit like where I landed after having, like, my indie sort of band and, like, my sort of, like, melodic rap period is, like, I didn't want to have a footprint of something that wasn't completely me and what I wanted to say. And so I always, I always, have like that conversation with myself in my mind like before I do something is this what I really want it to be and I remember having like a project ready to go and I was like I don't know if that's how I wanted to introduce myself to my audience and so it never came out that's a lot of self-awareness was anyone telling you you don't sound like that you shouldn't do that or is it all just in your

head all in my head yeah that's wild that's really that's hard to do it's hard to put in that kind of effort and say, no, this is not what I want to do. 100%. When I look at the streaming numbers for something, memories, and you know, you're talking about like across platforms, 30 million plus streams. Like, I'm 30 million plus streams. Yeah.

Surrod. How about that? Well, that's what I was going to ask. I can't, I can't tell. It doesn't say like, hey, this is the chart of, this is the growth chart of this song. Yeah. But, you know, I know a lot of artists that don't have songs that have that many streams across platforms or when that song comes out, I guess it didn't, if that's surprising to you,

that means it didn't come out of the box with lots of streams. Oh, no. My home comes out pretty close after that, and that's like crazy numbers. Yeah, yeah. NMPA is our lead sponsor yet again. What is the National Music Publishers Association? What do publishers have to do as songwriters anyway? Well, unlike artists who can be unsigned artists.

There is no such thing as an unsigned writer. You can be a self-published, a co-publish or a published writer. Publishers only make money if songwriters make money. So, NMPA goes and fights for you. They go to Congress, they go and support the community, they fight DSPs to get you paid more. That's what they do. They fight for you and they fight for this podcast.

So thank you for fighting for songwriters NMPA. Thank you for fighting for us too. Give me the process because that's like a, you know, that's a hit. Yeah. Oh, appreciate that. How does that, like, how does it go from, okay, I've done covers, I've released the song, you know, I'm in the thing, I've got now management. Yeah.

You know, the teams coming together. How do you have your first hit? Honestly, and I hate to say it. I think the day I met Peter Fen was the day that my career started. And I got to give that. man so much credit. That's like my brother. But he changed my entire perspective on music. And had I have not met him, I don't think I'd be where I am. First of all, shout out, Peter Fan. Good man. He's a friend of the podcast and obviously very talented. How do you meet Peter Fan?

So me and Pete meet, so not long after so. I go to the US for my very first time for six weeks, like straight after the memory, straight after the memories came out. So I was in the US six weeks I did three weeks in Nashville, three weeks in L.A. And I worked with everyone. At this point,

who are you signed to? Not signed at this point. So who's fronting this? My management. Yeah, my management. He was in the trenches. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He got his money back.

Yeah, no, but good on him. For a while he did not. That's it. That's an actual investment. Yeah. It's both, you know, sweat, equity and equity, equity. 100%.

So you spend three weeks in Nashville, three weeks in L.A. You said you wrote with everybody, but not me. That's cool. I'll let it go. So you write with a bunch of people. Nashville's got a lot of good writers. L.A.'s got a lot of good writers. 100%.

What is it about Peter? So Pete was my very last session at the end of that six weeks. And my manager used to manage Pete, pre Pete being a writer producer. So when Pete had an artist project, which I hope you guys go and search. So when Pete did that, him and Eric parted ways.

And Eric was always like, you should work with Pete, you're sure at Pete. So the last two days, he's like, let's do it. And I'm like absolutely knackered at this point. Like, you know, it's like it's been a great trip and it's been fun and exciting.

But I'm missing home. It's like, I wanted to go home a bit earlier. But I was like, we'll do this Pete session. So anyway, go and meet Pete. And you guys know Pete. But for people who don't know Pete, he is like a character. like big energy, big heart, like warm as hell, like just fun, you know, and I was like, wait,

music, writing with other people is supposed to be fun because I'd like respectfully, like, up until that point, it felt very like Nashville, very like song focus, very methodical and, and math-see in terms of like, you know, we have this, we land the punchline here, we go here, we go here, and I was like, that didn't suit me. Then you come to LA and it's like, every session starts of like, we're going to write a smash. And then you don't. And then you just feel like dejected. And it's like three weeks in a row of going, we're going to ride a smash.

And you leave with like a B side that the producer is not going to get back to you because it's just like it's not worth my time. And I'm an up and coming artist at this point. So it's like, yeah, we'll get the bounce back. So I've got like an MP3 where my vocals are bounced slightly out of time. And it's just like, okay, this isn't going to work. But when I was in a P, I remember coming with like this sort of like deflated energy, but it's like, dude, like, let's just have fun.

Like, I was like, oh, so we're not going to sit here and talk about for two hours why the industry's failing and then use all of that energy that we've mustered from negative energy to write a great song. I was like, wow, who knew it could be this easy? And yeah, we just chatted, we hung like we're mates. And like, then a song came naturally from that process. And it was just like such a weird way, but looking back such an obvious way. to make music is like have fun get to know each other if you make a song great if you don't hey it's

like building blocks on the next session and i think that pete always had pushed me to like prioritise enjoying what i'm doing and if i'm not enjoying it don't do it um and i carry that into like every session that i do now and then the second thing is like don't chase what other people are doing is like what are you going to do that makes people want to listen that And that could only come from you. And I think he's really good, especially with artists who are like up and coming to like his great at helping them establish their voice, not someone else's voice. And he definitely did that for me because I felt how I went home with such a clearer identity

of who I was and what I wanted to say. So my home was written during those two also or is that? First day we met each other. First hour of meeting each other. We wrote that song. You wrote this on an hour? Yeah. First, first hour of meeting each other.

Shame on you. do you have the voice note of that? It would take me a while to dig up, but I could find it, probably. It's the first song that has like meaningful international success. Going from your hometown that has, you know, you were saying 100 feels like it's something, 500 feels like something. Yeah. Having a song that has tens of millions and now hundreds of millions of streams.

and having like this visible international success. I guess it's not necessarily visible because it's statistical at this point. But what did it feel like to communicate internationally from where you started? It was a strange feeling for sure. It was like, I remember I'd like at the very start of it, I used to have this app that used to tell me

what new music Fridays or playlists had been added on. I remember getting added on like, like, spotlight number 56 on like New Music Friday, Argentina. And I'm like, yo, people from Argentina know who I am. Like, that's crazy. And like, you know, or going on Instagram and it would be like, I don't know, like a Z-lister, like German influencer like reposting your music. Be like, people in, people speak German, know me? It's like, that feeling was crazy.

And like, probably something to highlight that never taken that feeling for granted because, I remember how important that was to like me believing in myself that, you know, random people, like, even like seeing like a woman drive a car in like the Netherlands with her son singing it in the background, like on a postage story, like those small things really made me believe, oh, this is really possible and really achievable and really cool. And dealing with it, it wasn't really dealing with it. It was about enjoying it and I really enjoyed it. and it was like such a affirmation after like what 14 years at that point of like you know making music that oh this thing could do something yeah and just coming where you came from unless like yeah all that preparation but a pretty dark spot right before it

to to to go from that to oh i am being heard yeah so i mean you know what the hero's journey is not the hero's journey is uh you know it's basically like Star Wars is the hero's journey. There are a lot of versions of this. You'll start recognizing it and a lot of things if you don't know it. But essentially, the hero starts off with, you know, just exists. Somebody says, hey, you can do this. Like, I don't know if I should do this.

They leave home. They go on this journey and, you know, they meet different sort of Yoda characters along the way. They're like, well, why don't you try it like this? And you could do that. and, you know, then you get into all the darkness or you have to battle all kinds of things and somebody else comes to this is how you battle that. And by the time you come home, you're a different person who's able to say, this is the,

this is the journey I went on. And I botched that. There's an easier way to say it. But the point of the hero's journey is very much a lot like your career. It's like you start off of being, you know, your mom's the first Yoda. Like, hey, I'm going to take, you're good at this. Let me take you to these open mics. You know, you can do this.

And then to be like, okay, now your family is part of the thing. And then you go through all these dark moments of, you know, that you think that the down part is I'm going to do, you know, is when you're 18, then you hit another down when you're 21 or 22. And you're like, you know, those are, that's all part of the hero's journey to then have a moment where you're looking up. You're like, oh, my God, there's somebody in the Netherlands, somebody in Argentina and, like, oh, I think I understand this.

And then, you know, you come back, literally to have a song called My Home and really completes the hero's journey and that. And I feel like where we're at now is the sequels. You know, it's like when you're getting into that. You follow it up with solo. Mm-hmm. That's a pretty, like, if, in the beginning you said, if, you know, stargazing and, you know, nice to meet you or not, that's where your career is.

If those two songs were the first two songs, you'd be pretty stoked with that too. Oh, yeah. You know what I mean? Those are kind of massive. There are a lot of people who don't have that. Did you start feeling like you would, in a way at that point, did you feel like you had made it? Were your expectations met at that point? To an extent, yeah.

I think having my home and solo was really, really good because this was all pre-label as well. So it was nice of grown so organically. And at the time, it was literally just me and Eric, my manager. That was the team. There was no one else, you know. And Pete, like, you know, he mixed and, you know, produced the whole thing. That was like, it just went to master. So the team was small.

It was me, Pete and Eric, basically, making this thing all work. And having those two really affirmed, like, oh, like, we're moving in the right direction and this feels really good. I think what they did is a firm where I was, but also showed me, oh, this could get so much bigger as well, which was like also really cool. And I think one of the dangers as an artist as well is that you always, I guess, cast a huge shadow over what you're doing with the question of what's next. And I think after stargazing, I've learned, and we'll get there, I'm sure, I've learned that question is the worst question to ever ask yourself and sometimes just say, enjoy now. Where did you, we can jump to that for a second. After stargazing, you had moments where you were questioning,

I guess you weren't questioning, you were, you were stuck in the future? Yeah, I was definitely stuck in the future. And I think, you know, even, so stargazing had come out and it was like, I think it was like three million streams the first day or whatever it was. and it was like super funny, exciting, and like, celebrated with my band. You know, I was on the road at the time and had festivals around the corner, and it was like an amazing experience. And then, you know, it grew and it grew, and it was, I think it peaked at like

five million plays a day or whatever it was. And it was like this amazing thing. And I quickly remember not long after it peaked, I had this massive empty feeling. And it was like, huh, like, what's next? and how do I do that again? And the prospect was so daunting because up until stargazing, my career was on a steady trajectory up.

And then it did that. And I was like, I've missed so many steps that I'm like, how can my brain now factor in the fact that I've missed the steps I really wanted to take because I'm not ready for that yet. And you always have to like work backwards to be ready for it. And I think in my career in a whole, it was the biggest blessing and curse because, like, I loved it and I love what it's done. And I love the fact that, you know, I'm able to do arenas now and, you know, tour the world, which is like such a phenomenal feat. But I also feel like it's pushed me and sped me past a part of my career where I get to learn and develop out of sight, out of mind.

And it's a really weird feeling to live with. But some people have that hit. on their first song, and they don't have, there's nothing in the past for their audience to go look at. They didn't have my home. They didn't have solo.

They didn't have anything to look at. So they go and they hit that. And then the label's also like, well, what do you have next? You have to have something next. And you're stuck in the middle. That's how one hit wonder has happened all the time. You know, it's like everyone's chasing like this hit

before they have any foundation. You had the foundation of open mics all the way up. So when you throw you on a stage, you're like, you can adjust. It's just more people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it's a lot more people. Yeah. But it's still, it's still a stage.

Yeah. It's still a microphone, still guitar, it's still a band. You know, some of that stuff, you had a foundation. It's good that it happened fast. Yeah. Scary as shit. Mm-hmm. But it's got to be good, right?

Yeah. I think that's, uh, respectfully, like the PR answer that has got a few. amazing but if I'm telling you the honest truth it's daunting as hell and I feel not enough people talk about the scary side of having a hit because no one preps you from going like oh I'm at home and I get to see my family and my friends and I get to do this really cool music career to within the space of three months being like oh by the way mum I'm not really going to be able to see much in the next six months even though we speak and talk every day.

And by the way, best friend, I'm going to miss your wedding. And by the way, family, I'm going to miss like three funerals. Like, it's a really weird, weird space to be in. And as a person, I've never chased faint. That has never been something like that has been part of my active pursuit. I've always just wanted it to be about music, making music, and people respect to me for my music. So there was a naivety, I think, getting into this career that naturally,

elements on my life would change, you know? And that's been a struggle. I think having a hit and going global is phenomenal and is amazing. But then being global also means like, hey, there's a lot of countries who aren't as progressive and liberal as a place that I'm from, and racism hits you in a way in which you don't expect through DMs and social media. So learning how to deal with that has been really weird, learning how to communicate who I am to so many different people whilst having to hold on to pass myself just to feel sane has been such a weird experience. And I think through all of it, there was no learning, like, curve. It was like, you're here now, deal with it. And that's on no one else's fault because none of us anticipated it for it to come that quickly. And there's been a

lot of work since then to sort of like catch up with it. But I think just as a human being, it's been one of the most exciting and brutal parts of my life. And I'm only now, enjoying it again. But I think I was smiling through a lot of last year, like, and the last two years, you know, I was like, you know, I had to go get my brain scans because my brain started doing weird stuff because I was sleep deprived and burnt out. Like, I did a trip where I went from, like, I played a show in New Zealand. Next day I landed in L.A. and did The Voice. Next day I landed in the UK and did Big Weekend and you have to smile through all of it, you know? And it's like, I think learning balance has been difficult.

And I just, I wouldn't want to sit on this podcast and do myself like an injustice and be like, having a hit and being big is amazing. It comes with a lot of complications and you've got to be ready for it. And I wish more artists spoke openly about the reality of it because then there's no, like, there's no blindfold to you walking into it. Yeah, we talked to some writers about, you know, you have that number one song and there's no ticker tape parade for a writer. Nobody even knows who you are. And you finally hit this number one. you're like, I got it. And you're still on your phone.

You're still at home. You're still like, you still have to do laundry. You still have to do the things. Like, it's not all it's cracked up to be. But as an artist, it's almost the opposite where it's like you don't even have the, it's not routine. Like the problem for, I think, a lot of writers is that the routine stays generally the same. Yeah. You know, but you're expecting this like ring, you know, something crazy.

And, you know, a championship ring or something. like that. And it's like it doesn't happen like that. And as an artist, it's almost the exact opposite. It's like whatever routine you thought you had, now we're going to go and be in New Zealand, L.A., and you can, you are going to miss these funerals and you are going to miss, you know, your family. As your family, have your friends been understanding? Yes, but it's been difficult to get there, you know, I feel my mom has been the hardest relationship because I've struggled to she's like my best friend man she's been there my whole life you know she's been the person that has kept me sane throughout my whole life and you know walked me through it and then

you know hitting periods where i didn't see her for like three four five months at a time became really difficult um and then there's uh the you know the i guess mechanical part of the relationship which is like she was like my caregiver and personally supporting me and now it's like hey mum i want to retire you and that's the whole conversation because like she's like doesn't know what to do or say or feel and like I've walked into that situation like I'm going to retire you and she's walked to that situation like I don't know if I need that or want that right now in my life and then me thinking I've done all of this to be in that position to create that and this isn't a response that I thought I would get and so there's so many different emotional imbalances

having an older brother and now being in a financial position where I'm I guess more capable to be an older brother, but then still not wanting to undermine him, but then him still wanted to be protective over me, not necessarily understand my industry. But then me also wanted to be able to give back to him. And there's so many parts of relationships and all of your relationships that make no sense. And then it's suddenly the questions that you have, like, all of my band and crew are, I'm really lucky, have been friends before I ever got into this. But then you start going, would they be around if I didn't pay them? And then you've got to stop yourself and being like, that's a crazy thought that I've even ever had that thought, but every relationship in your life

shifts and changes and you feel like you're going mad. And then I think the hard part about being me and maybe being a British artist is that I speak to a lot of artists, friends or peers or other people, and they love being famous. And I'm like, we don't relate and I can't relate to you. And I'm lucky that I have friends like, you know, Ed Sheeran or James Bay or Bastille who are are like me or Niall Horan who are just like they really just love the real world and I didn't realize there's such a gap between some artists who really love being artist and really love being different and really love thinking that we're separated by how much money is in our bank which is benign to me and some artists who are just like this is all cool but this is a real world actually yeah when you

become presumably rich. There are people who follow you around hoping money falls out of your pockets. Yeah. You know? And the strange things, you're so used to seeing reels or TikToks, whatever, you know, people posting that the video of them like, mom, I bought your house. And the mom was like, thank you, thank you so much. But in reality, a lot of times, you know, you go and you're like, I can take care of

of you and they're like, yeah, no, I can take her myself. Oh, shit. Or it's like, why don't you invest in this then? Why don't you do that? And you're like, no, no, no, that wasn't how this is supposed to go. I think that that's actually probably another one of those things that people, you know, don't talk about. But it's not necessarily like people on the other side wanting to receive it.

Yeah. And, you know, it's like being at a dinner and be like, I got this. And they're like, I can pay for my own dinner. A hundred percent. You're like, oh, I was just trying to like, you know, say, no, no problem. And I'm, that's legit. That happens often. I'm mega grateful for the people in my life because all of them have reiterated that no amount of money, finance support or gifts can replace the relationship.

And they very much have told me, like, if you want to give to me, give me your time, your presence and your energy and just be present when you're with me. don't think buying me a new bag or send me in a holiday or trying to retire me or pay for a dinner is that because that's just a person you are and you've always been that person even when you had nothing like I would rather you just take an afternoon off and I think learning the value of everything has changed because I grew up with nothing so understanding that is definitely different as well Are you happy? Me. Even though it sounds like I am not, I'm exceptionally happy.

And I could tell you the exact reason I'm happy. My relationship with my mum's never been better. The people I surround myself with on tour are the best people in the world. And I don't just say that like PR-wise. They ground me, they humble me. They call me a twat of them being a twat. And, you know, they ride and die for everything. that this is and I've built a team that they all have their own professional like goals within the camp,

you know, like my front of house wants to be the best front of house engineer in the world, you know, my TM wants to do the best job that he can do, my guitarists and basses want to be the best in their profession. So it's not about me, it's about us, you know. I'm happy because when I'm home, I'm home and I don't have to worry about stuff. Like I grew up where, you know, paying rent and avoiding bailiffs was like, you know, a daily concern. And now I could like, I don't have to think about running to put $5 on my electric card because the lights have gone out in my house. That's like an amazer spot to be in.

And I think more than anything, I feel like I'm just being true for and honest in every interaction that I have. And I'm not giving in to how easy it is to go that everything's made and everything's good. And the more honest I could be between me and the people who choose to listen to our music. And I don't call them fans just because I just feel super cunty saying fans. It just feels really weird. Like, oh my God, I got fares.

No, they enjoy my music. So I think the relationship between me and the people who listen to my music is really good. And I'm super happy with that. It's weird because you became successful off of the internet. But presumably a lot of the, when you were saying, you know, you get racist DMs and things like that. What's your relationship to the internet now? a lot more conscious. I think before I just really like,

I just loved it. I just did it and it was great and it was an expression of myself and it was super awesome. And then I think there's a reality of when you become like an artist who's like got an audience that there is a part to it that's marketing. There is a part to it that like is, you know, growing a career. And I think I've struggled with that. that because I guess I've wanted the best of both worlds of having a career and doing it

just for the fact that I love what I do. But then there's elements of your job that you don't necessarily have control over, which I'm struggling with. And I think that's the part of them figuring that out now is like, okay, I've got to promote an album and I hate the fact that I have to basically say to people, go out and spend money on buy my music. That really makes me feel weird. but I have to reframe my thinking of that I'm not asking you to go out and pay for my music for me I actually want you to go and listen to my music because I honestly think you might enjoy it

and within the music you might learn something about yourself and I think that I just have such a gear in my head that like hates the sales part of this job and I just got to remember the reason why I'm doing it and the reason I'm doing it is because I love music and music was a reason why I was able to communicate how I felt my emotions, and music was my safety blanket in a household that was really difficult to grow up in. And as long as those are essential to everything that I'm doing, I feel okay

in this role and in this job. Selling, you know, manufactured goods like CDs, I hope your fans buy your vinyl and that helps. But for the most part, what you're not asking people to spend more money than they're already spending to listen to your music, you're giving them an opportunity to see inside your world, which is unique because you're unafraid to have a real conversation, even in this setting, and that bravery will come out in your music. So I think the people who haven't heard it or really listen

should because the person who's sitting across is willing to be open now is open in the studio too. One of the things that probably makes it really hard to be grounded is that everywhere you go your songs are played. I mean, how often are you hearing your songs out and about, like all the time? All the time. Is it weird? It's probably the only ego part of my job that I love. Like, it's so awesome getting in a car and hearing your song. Like, it's awesome like going out in public and like taking a shit and like your songs playing. No words can describe that. People say like when you have a kid, like you can't describe that happiness. I'm telling you,

When you go for a shit and your song's playing, you're like, oh, yeah, that's the closest I can relate to it at the moment. And it's super awesome. And, like, I don't know, there's little jovial things. Like, my Wi-Fi went out the other day and I called the Wi-Fi company. I was on hold for like two hours. And then, you know, they're like, oh, we're going to pass you on again. And then Stargazer starts playing. And it's like, I've never been more angry at me.

But it's even cool that I get to be angry at me. Yeah. That's so dope. Yeah. So, yeah, I love that part of the job. And no matter what people say about radio or TV or traditional media declining, I think any artist is a liar if they don't say they feel amazing when their songs on a radio. It just hits different and I don't know why.

It sounds different for sure. Yeah. All that time you're like, would this sound good on the radio? Would this sound good in a restaurant? Would this sound good on TV or in a movie? Yeah. And all of a sudden you do, you're like, oh, man, that sounds real good. That sounds real good.

You were saying Stargazing, you know, it had three months. million streams in the first week. Well, we can go down a laundry list of classic artists who are releasing music right now who cannot buy, you know, three million streams in the first week. First day. But you were getting, like, in the first day, first week. How? What if that song is, what is it about Stargate engaging that resonates so well throughout

the world? I think, firstly, it's a big hook and an easy melody. And it's really cool having international friends. Like, I've got friends who live in Spain, in France, in, you know, Mexico, wherever. And the thing that they always say is, like, you don't even need to understand the words. The melody just really cuts through language barriers. And I think that's been a really good thing, you know, and it's true. it's like there's, I don't know if it's PR-friendly or whatever,

but people always say, like, Michael Jackson's the biggest artist in the world, because you could go to, like, the middle of nowhere, and there's someone singing his song. And that's the truth. I think great music supersedes language, and I think Stargazing was able to reach people at just, like, a melodic level. Family and friends and stuff must just be, like, over the moon, about how crazy all this is.

dope. I think awards for me, again, I'm like, I say this one plays honestly and truth. They're like, they're cool for me. But like the reason I really like love those accolades is because like, brough, when you bring in your mum to like an award ceremony and like winning an award and seeing your mum's reaction, that's more fire than the award. Like it's so sick to have that feeling. Like I played like my first like London headline like 5,000 people and like my mum. my mum was sat right in the middle of the balcony. And like people singing about the song and it's like, that moment was amazing because all these people had chosen to leave the house, has chosen to spend their money.

And I take none of that for granted because like, it's not cheap to live right now. So that in itself is like sick. And then you put your mum on top of that is like even better. So like awards, accolades, like numbers, all these things are like, for me, they're cool. It's like getting your grades at like school or college. If you went, I went to college and like I did really well. And I was like, it was good to do it. But it was, my mama graduation was what made that whole thing amazing.

And I think I don't live for her, but there's definitely a big part of like my satisfaction of fulfillment that comes from like making her proud because she sacrificed so much. Nice to meet you is a pretty big song. Yeah, did all right. Good job. Tell me about writing that song. That was a good day, man.

I mean, it was me, uh, Plested Pete and Dan Smith from Bastille, uh, in Brighton, which is where I live now, so sort of like South Coast of England and we get in the room and they're all such different characters and personalities like Dan is very English and you know he's just a really fun character but super

English and you got Pete who was super like super LA like we're going to get his God be the biggest thing in the world and then you got Dan and I was yeah no it sounds good you know I mean and then you got Pleasted which is just sort of like Pleistid is blessed it's hard to describe me if you don't know him but he is a songwriter he's a real

songwriter he's a real songwriter he's a real songwriter he's phenomenal but it was all of those characters like mixed in a glass with tequila and it brought out something uh and it brought out nice to meet you and um you know i found the melody of that song uh pretty early on and i know when something's good because like pete he starts going for one of these and uh it quickly came together and, you know, Dan and Pleistid both and made and songwriters, like, you know, help piece the parts of the puzzle together. And again, really quick turnaround on the song, wrote on that session, like a couple hours. The video for Stargazing when you guys, you know, went super viral,

sort of like it was a big part of the whole thing. When nice to meet you, when you finished that song, did you have the same feeling that you did when you finished stargazing? Oh, yeah, it was a vibe. Even though I was the last of the party on that song, We'd done like three other songs in that camp, and everyone was telling me, like, nice to meet you as the one. And I was like, no, it's good, but it's like, it's a bob.

And it was the same with Stargazing, if I'm being completely honest. Like, I thought it was good, but that one who, it was, it was Joe Edithson, my A&R who really loved that song. And I wasn't sold because, like, sometimes, like, I'd need a tiny bit of production to, like, be sold on a record, even though it's not all about the production. It's like, sometimes it helps me understand where the song lives and sits, and they were both very barebone. And Pete's great at like not doing a lot for it to get to a place where it feels special. So for Stargazing, it was a drone. It was a dun dun dun dun, that just turned it into like, okay, I want to go all in

on this song. And then with Nice to Meet You, it just felt way too happy, clapy. And I was like, I can't see myself like, oh, ha, ha. And it felt super country. And I was like, I'm not Shibuzi. I was like, even though many people will get us, racism is crazy. But anyway, we're nice to be. Do you really get confused for it? Oh, dude.

Two black guys with dreads. It's a 90% of the population. They all look the same. That's so good. I mean, we've had like Teddy tell stories about him and Jelly Roll, but those guys kind of like have like a similar vibe. They got face tattoos. They're like, that's a thing.

I don't think of you at Shibuzzi as being in the same. Like, you guys don't even, like, nothing is... I don't think so either, but... Terry, you'll be surprised. You'd be surprised. That's funny. But yeah, but then, you know, when we sort of... It was still sort of like, you know, the stump claps on the offbeat,

but we moved some of the production away from country. I was like, now it feels like it's his own thing. And that was really cool. Yeah, I mean, speaking of other doppelgangers of yours, Nile Horn. I know, man. Same complexion, everything is mental. We just hung out with Nile, legend.

You know, when you were in your learning phase of writing, One Direction's the biggest band in the world, like literally. So how does the relationship between you and Nile start? A lot of hatred. He's just such a dick, right? I hated that man. Growing up. Quite literally, the nicest human on the planet.

I hated him and I'll tell you why. You literally hit it. Growing up, right, with that fucking boy band being like the sex icons of like the UK at the moment, it was like, no girl was going to fancy me when you had Niall Horan walking about. And I just had so much built up frustration because I was just like, you just were the reason I never got love for all the secondary school. And you were the beauty standard.

So I was like, you, you bastard. But then I met him and I was like, I really like this guy. What's the difference between writing with, you know, somebody who's a superstar like that versus not? It's hard because the superstars are met being Nile and a cheerin that you've met them. They're not, they don't carry the superstar sort of like characteristics of where they like being superstars. They just like being normal dude.

So it was like going into. right with pretty much anyone I've been in a right with like there was no ego um I've been lucky enough to avoid ego pretty much my whole journey I've met met it a few times at events and stuff and I hate it uh but he's a normal dude yeah yeah um let's do some rapid fire oh yeah I'm just to ask some let's start with uh are you famous now oh in some parts of the world Like where? In the UK, I would say I'm doing right. You get stopped every day?

Yeah, in the UK, for sure. It's got to be great, right? Over here's like... I mean, I should say it's got to be great because I feel like the people who come up to you are probably mostly fans, right? Yeah, I'm lucky. I've got the most respectful, like, people ever who, like, listen to my music is they just all are normal human beings. It's really nice, actually. I think maybe also because a lot of your, you know, your struggles are public.

I imagine that it pulls in a, there's this concept of what's called parisocial. And, you know, when I see meet somebody in public, often who knows the podcast or whatever, often the conversation gets really deep very quickly. Absolutely. Because, like, they're in a, they've, we have a different relationship. Yeah. You know, being an honest songwriter, artist, my assumption is that you also find yourself in deep conversations very quickly.

Yeah. You know, how does it feel seeing that kind of, you know, like, to me, that's, that's, like, a big part of success. Yeah. You know, how does it make you feel? Uh. I think it adds to my how cognizant I am of like the role that I play now. Like I would be naive to think to a lot of people I'm not a role model.

And I think I would not, my mum's great at this actually. It's a sidesteping a little. But my mum always is a person who reminds me like, you have a voice and people listen to your voice and the decisions in how you present yourself and the things in which you lead with are super important and just be like super, I guess, aware of just like, you know, you're a black male British artist.

There'll be a lot of young black boys who look and sound like you're looking up to you. So don't go getting yourself involved in anything stupid or doing anything dumb or saying anything that doesn't represent you because you're not in that situation anymore where people won't listen to you. And she's also very aware of like, and you have a real opportunity to change the narrative of what a modern man is, you know, it's like we're so surrounded and we have back and forth philosophical conversations about the manosphere and, you know, people's, uh, people's thoughts and, and opinions on how the

world and how the world should run. But the way I was raised, I was raised by my mum and my sister, really. It's like I have, I have such an appreciation for women and their role in society. and I think now when I think about it, it's like those are the conversations which are pertinent and happening every single day and those are the ones that I prioritize and are thinking and the way in which I choose to, you know, speak and do the things as honestly as I do.

How did you meet a wife with all this stuff going on? I mean, like, how did you, you know, what's the story of, how do you have a personal life with everything happening? How do I meet a wife? I don't know. That's a great question. And when do you have time for a, when do you have time for a personal life?

My personal life is sort of on the road with me. Like a day-to-day manager, PJ. I've known him since school. We're best mate. So super lucky that he's with me all the time. My whole band I've known eight plus years. They're like friends from that existed all before this. You know, I fly my mom out every now and then to tour.

My brother out every now and then to tour. So I kind of keep home close. Do you want to ever have like family that thing? Absolutely, bro. Yeah, I don't want to be that guy that's like 40 and all I've got is like plaques to show. That's not what I want in life. Of all the accolades you have, President Obama putting stargazing at a summer playlist. Holy shit, yeah.

That was sick. It's so sick. That was sick. There's like three people, three things like, Brick. British people know about America is like who the president is, like, you drive on the other side of the road and like your food's got a bunch of shit in that. So it's like, it's pretty fucking sick. I got one of the three. How do you feel about, the fact that this career has already been going on for a while and that it's all happened before your debut album? When you've talked about how, you know, you have this stargazing up here and nice to meet you up here.

and you feel like you didn't get the journey all the way up. Does releasing your debut album in the next few weeks feel like that completes that beginning journey? Yeah, that's how I see it in my head. I feel like, you know, and that's why the songs are included on the album. It's like I wanted, you know, from starting out to now to be like put as like step one. Like if it was a series, this would be like season one, you know? And for me, that feels what the.

album is like season one of Miles Smith. You don't have to answer this, but has your dad resurfaced at all? I've not heard from him, no. But I don't know how I would, because no one's really in contact with him, nor the other way around. And it's kind of ideal.

Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah. It's just interesting, you know, being at the top of an industry. Yeah. You know, do you feel like there's um you know i i certainly have a few things that drive me forward in in my career path and it feels like the traumatic parts of my life are a driver yeah um do you feel like that's still a driver driver for you no it was but it's not anymore uh i used to live my life trying to fill that

whole. But I think the reason why my circumstance is so many, so different to so many people's separation is like my mum genuinely didn't leave a stone unturned in parenting and I didn't feel like I've missed out on really anything. I mean, apart from like learning how to shave my balls without cutting them and like shaving my beard like she covered all basis. That was not where I thought that was going to go. Exciting to know. Are you melody or lyrics first? Feeling first.

I know that's a cop-out, but sometimes the lyric gives me a feeling, sometimes the melody does. I think that your journey is just really exciting. First of all, thank you for doing this. Thank you, dude. When, the songwriting game is really interesting. that you're not a part of because you're busy writing for yourself. And when you go into a room,

especially for pitch, everyone's like, we need something like blank. And there was a, I don't know if it's a rumor or whatever it is, but it's like, hey, Miles Smith, they'll look at some outside songs, which apparently you don't need. Which is disappointing because you're fantastic.

and it would be great to send you songs. But it's this interesting thing where the skill that you have as a songwriter as an artist has pushed countless rooms of great songwriters to try to come up with something good enough that you might like it enough to even listen to it. Wow.

it's probably the biggest compliment I can give you because there are so many artists that come and go that nobody cares to get in the room with or try to emulate or try to send them songs because you're just kind of like, this is just this is coming and going and it's a thing, whatever. But I think everyone aspires to write for singers. And people actually sing like a melody.

and that's you know you were saying from the beginning you know the stuff that inspires you are these big melodies and that kind of music you know the joke that we talk about a lot is like if you know if if i will always love you came out today it'd be like and i i will always love you so accurate more passive though nobody's sitting everyone's afraid to sing everyone's afraid to put themselves out there and I love hearing your story because it's so vulnerable to really go and sing and it's probably why it's so fun

because you feel like, oh, if he's doing it, I can do too, it's like gives us license, but you've created a discography without even having your debut album out. This is so confusing already that a lot of writers throughout the world are spending time trying to create songs that are as good as and compete with

the songs you've already done. And like you said, this is only chapter one. You're so young. Like, we're going to be having this conversation every album. And in like 10 years, you're going to have five more albums. And it's crazy that this is only the beginning because your music's timeless. It already feels like it's been around for a long time. So thank you for doing this. Thank you so much. Yeah, no, that's incredible. Well, there you go. That's your first interview, Van the Runner is.

Woo! But I do want to hear, if you can find those demos, like, you know, I'm going to hear those demos, you know. It's going to be a. Oh, let's go. Yeah, that's cool. Oh, here they are. Oh, that's great. Oh, God.

Oh, that's so darn. Oh, that's fine. Oh. That's fire. Dude. That is, we were so much 90-42 down at that point, dude. We were so 90-42ed. Holy smart.

And that night, like, they both threw up from Taco Bell. It was, it was scenes. Wait. Yeah. I'm sorry. Tell me about the night you wrote Stargazing. Yeah, dude, it was a movie. It was like started this song with like,

they drunk so much night before we two. It was not long after I signed a label deal. So like, like, basically I was like, oh, they're like, they're going to do anything. I was like, book me a mansion. And I was like, sure. I was like in Malibu. They're like, sure.

I was like, I want Pete and Jesse there as well. I was like, sure. I was like, an alcohol. I was like, sure. I was like, holy snap. I was like, what? I could do this now? Not knowing that, it's like, all recording budget and I got to pay for it in the end.

So we're like there for like a few days and drinking night for we two and eating pizza and like it's just us. And I'd never be Malibu. Like, I mean, prior to going, I thought it was just a drink. So it's crazy. And I didn't realize no one lived there. So like, it's three of us in this huge. trouts and like we've not seen any other life in like five days and like this house stinks dude it's like we're all walking around in like our pants just like take away everywhere we start

writing stargazing and it's coming along and it's moving and it's feeling really good but it's like late in tonight and we're like okay we'll we'll come back to it tomorrow and in that time jess and peter ordered taco bell and i don't eat meat so like i didn't have any and like i swear to god 30 minutes later like you had outrageous, violent vomiting from like, oh, for them. Uh-huh. Next day, like, wake up, like, you guys go, they're like, talk. Like, ah, dark, we're not good, man.

Finish stargazing. This is the beginning of a movie where you're going to suddenly poison them in order to be like, to be like, you must write the next song. They're like, what? I'm so sick. I'm like, do it. Oh, here's another one. This one's from solo.

People who are wondering how I have the demos right now, it's either from Peter Fenn or it's because I was hiding in the house the whole time. But I'm not going to tell you which one. Okay. Like the first time, you're like, I like, that's cool. I like the energy of like... He's clapping his hands, by the way.

Yeah. This is long. This is... This is like 10 minutes of seven. Let's see what the end sounds like. I like a new lyric again, but I like her meeting the solo twice. Low-key. Yeah, it's nice.

It's fuzz. I'm so great. As I'm just like jump in, just to get sag after. He's just like, I want that union check. So check this out. I got, no, there has to be a bit of voice like than that. I must have something. That is brilliant.

It's funny. Peter asked, you know, in the last three years, what has been one of the biggest pinch me moments? Oh. That's such a genuine question of a bit. Well, this is the rest of it. that's why I'm going to leave it on my phone I'll leave it on my phone

I'm not going to share that but that's why we were laughing earlier I was like some things are better left on a chain that's so good but how great is that like I will say this and although people might be waiting for the answer of that Peter you probably won't get it

um the you know you just want to have even in the business It's like, it's nice to have chains of friends in the business. Like you were saying, sometimes you question, like, what is the relationship with all these people? But the reality is, like, you don't send those texts if you're not friends. 100%. You know?

Everybody understands the failure of us on. That's zero. But there are certain types of successes that you share with those people. And if there are good vibes in that, that can deepen a relationship that's unlike any other friendship I have. My chain of best friends for the last 25 years is very funny. It's been funny all morning. Like, I love my friends, but we all have different jobs.

We do different things. We don't really talk about our jobs all that much, you know? And some of them are Emmy winners and shit like that. Like, we don't talk about our jobs. We're proud of each other, but that's what that is. Yeah. My friends from the business, it's like the ones that you share success with like that, you know, like vomiting Taco Bell while you're writing a worldwide number one song.

success like only you guys understand what it was from that moment yeah you know and you get a glimpse when you hear that story and you hear the thing but you can only laugh that hard and with certain people who are like hey man we're going through this together and this is an amazing thing so it's you know like i said in the intro and i was alluding to them and and and plested and you know Dan and stuff and like you're surrounded by like really good good people and so it it makes sense that that the music's good too. Thank you dude. Appreciate it. Miles Smith.

Miles Smith, man. What do you think? What a guy. What a guy, man. What a lad. Well done. That feels authentic. I got to say like, you know, I know his music.

And I know, you know, our friends that work with him. But I don't know that I had any expectations coming into it. So I like those kinds of interviews sometimes where there's not enough of a history that everybody knows it. You know, there's some brief history things that you can get because he's not shy. But I was really pleased at how grounded he was. And honestly, it's just it's so refreshing when you do interviews with people. where they don't mind going deep. 100%.

I felt the same thing. And they're just willing to kind of like be real. Yeah. Sometimes like not that we've had a lot of this, but like every now and then you can get someone who's a little guarded. They, you know, they don't really want to go too deep or to get too real. You know, it's and you're leaning more into, you know, the album or whatever, which is totally fine.

when someone's willing to just be real and put the wear their heart on their sleeve a little bit, obviously. Like, it's just an an amazing conversation. We've done interviews. I'm sure every podcast, news agency, whatever journalist has to deal with when somebody gives

parameters. Yeah. I'm like, hey, well, they'll talk, but they won't talk about this. And it doesn't happen often, but when it does, you're like, uh, if, how do you, if you, there are a lot of people we haven't been able to interview

because they don't want to talk about the thing that everybody wants to hear or they're sick of talking about it. But even from the perspective of a songwriter, like how did that affect that or as an artist? And so when somebody is just willing to talk about the thing and the things, and it just makes it,

it makes it like a real conversation. And, you know, again, like, I think, you know, we talk about this a lot. Everyone who starts a podcast is like, oh, I'm going to do, it's just a conversation we've just, between two friends. Yeah, yeah.

And then after like 10 episodes of it being an equal 50-50 conversation, it's like, nobody wants to hear the host talk. Sure. Unless if they're a comedian, maybe it's, that's the thing. Or like, if they're with friends where the whole thing is that they're the characters in every episode, like, I guess maybe I understand it. But at some point, like, you know, you want the, you want a real conversation, but the only way it happens is if somebody's willing to have a real conversation with you.

Yeah, 100%. And in this case, like, somebody's willing to even talk and not just, you're not just like leading, leading, leading. It kind of can leave it. And he was willing to just tell you the real story of the journey of a kid from, you know, a working class, single mom family. Like, what a hero. And you and I are, are, are, have little children at home and, and to see. what a mom does is is already amazing,

but to have a mom do it without any other familial support at home. Incredible. I can't understand it because it is hard enough. I know. When you hear those stories, you just, I mean, God bless. Yeah. And you see the way, you know, obviously the reason why I think he's, he talks about his mom a lot and he's like, you know,

he's the way he is because of that. So one thing, a little sidebar, I'll say. is, you know, and I know this a little bit from talking with Peter, but what a voice. You know, sometimes, you heard it when he just picked over the guitar and started singing. It's like, you know, there's the voices that are good, but they need a lot of love and, you know, EQs and compression and things to, like, really bring the voice out. And some voices don't need nothing. Anything.

And he just got one of those voices. He starts singing and it's just, there it is. It's really, really great voice. This is a compliment to Peter also, but to get into, to work with an artist who doesn't have a record deal yet and to be willing to do an entire EP or album, or albums worth of material before a deal.

Like, that's just something that I never did. really. Yeah. I think, unless I was the artist. Sure. You know, but I never did that with somebody else.

And that just takes, even if the person has an incredible voice, even if, like, it's hard not to let the business cloud judgment. Yeah. And I always respect somebody in the game who is willing to dive in with an artist

because they loved them and believed in them before the business followed, like, showed up. Yeah. That is, that's just, you know and shout out to i mean i'm about to just uh gush on on my some friends but like

peter i've said this from the beginning even to him is just like he's he has a bit of that artist whisper talent like he he just can he can connect with people on a different level musician or even not he he can connect with people on that sort of level in his energy in just the way he communicates and I think he just has a talent for that. It's like one of his superpowers, actually. And so to see this work out the way it's worked out and go the way it's gone, I'm just I'm proud of him,

I'm happy for him. And I know he's going to do it again with, you know, the next artist that comes across his plate. Yeah, I mean, I wish the best for Miles and I hope that the album's a success. But again, like these people can, can release six albums in your career, 10 albums in your career. And he already has two hits off this album. The fact that those haven't come out on an album yet is insane. So he'll be back on

yeah, yeah. I'm excited to watch his journey, man. What a nice guy. Yeah, it's a lovely conversation. Fun to listen to. All right. Got to go.