And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 252: Lizzo | Rock Bottom, #1, and the Game Nobody Explains

Episode Date: June 9, 2026

Today's guest is a Grammy winner, a two-time Billboard #1 artist, and one of the defining pop voices of the last decade. But her real story isn't the anthems or the awards. It's the part that plays like a rollercoaster and teaches like a masterclass: how she almost quit, what going #1 actually felt like, and everything about the music business nobody explains until you've survived it.The press version skips the touring deficits, the depression at the top, and the moment in an Echo Park apartment when she nearly took a job at Smoothie King. The question underneath everything she says: once you stop chasing the metric and the moment — who do you become?And The Writer Is... Lizzo!In this episode of And The Writer Is, we go deep on:• Why she wanted to quit music the day "Truth Hurts" went #1 — and the 2017 low point that was actually worse• The touring economics no one explains: how you gross $1M and still finish the year in the red• Why the indie grind that built her, in her view, no longer leads to the mainstream• "She stopped giving a fuck about what we wanted" — Beyoncé's self-titled as a blueprint for artistic autonomy• Why she only talks to people who buy her music — and what comment sections do to her nervous system• The bumper-sticker hook theory — why "Truth Hurts" works when it breaks every rule• Writing "About Damn Time": 83 versions of the chorus, and how the simplest line won• Robert Glasper's lesson: there's no such thing as a wrong note• Why good songs don't sound great at first — watching "Good as Hell" go from silly to gospel• "I make whatever the f*** I want" — and why arriving at that sentence took everything before itAnd much more...🔓 Want in the room? We just launched our Patreon — monthly Zoom hangs where we listen to your demos and give feedback, hang with you directly, occasional guest drop-ins, and the full archive of 200+ audio episodes (Sabrina Carpenter, Lin-Manuel Miranda, Shania Twain, Babyface, and more).[www.patreon.com/andthewriteris](https://www.patreon.com/andthewriteris)Hit subscribe and turn on notifications. Every week, we go deep with the most interesting creatives in music.Follow us on socials: @andthewriterisA special thank you to our lead sponsor, NMPA — the National Music Publishers' Association. Your support means the world to us.Credits:Hosted by Ross GolanProduced by Joe London & Jad SaadEdited by Jad SaadPost-Production VFX by Pratik Karki Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

We can't think about, like, dropping the biggest shit in the world. We can't think about ourselves like that anymore. You've got to super serve your fan base. It'll be the biggest shit in the world to them, and that's all that matters. I don't give a fuck what anyone says about the timing. My timing is always on time. You have so many billions of streams. Did you feel like when it went number one that you made it?

No, I was actually very depressed, and I wanted to quit music. That was bad. Like, I never wanted to get there ever again. What was fucked up that was going on in your life at that time? These kids today, they don't know what it's like to have a little rental car driving from 500 cap to 500 cap playing for food. I was creating a crowd for myself. Like, I was building a fan base by doing this.

Now I can do my own tours. I was able to gross a million dollars on my own, independent, no label. Grossing a million dollars is not the same thing as netting a million dollars. to teach people about touring economics. When an artist gross is a million dollars, what's the general take home from something like that? Oh, honey. This season is presented by NMPA,

the National Music Publishers Association, champions of songwriters and publishers everywhere. Welcome to And The Writer is. I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's chart-topping superstar started topping charts by popping off where the streams are. on your phones, on your screens. She was seen everywhere when she really, really broke in 2019.

A trained floutist with a pen. She was so popular when she broke that pop music became her personal subgenre. All the way from L.A. these days, this artist earned her place in the business and continues to show why she ain't going anywhere. And the writer is Lizzo. Oh, my God. Okay, so I'll do interviews and they'll be like,

this next guest needs no introduction. I mean, and I'll be like, sometimes I want an introduction and you just gave me everything that I've been wanting. I'm like, what would you say about me in an introduction? And there it was. Amazing. I'm very, I'm flattered. I'm floored.

When you're a flautist, you can't sing at the same time. Who says? I mean. Polyphonic flute. Herbie Hancock. Watermillan Man, Mario and Luigi theme song. You can beat boxing. You can do all types of things.

You can beat box and play flute. You can hum. You can Layla Hathaway and do two tones at the same time. When you say Watermelon Man, were you a jazz floutist? No, I wasn't. I'm actually a big faker. I just started. I had a residency at the Blue Note, and it was my first time ever, like, actually playing

jazz flute. I've been a classical flute player my whole life. And now I just think I'm like Miles Davis. Are you enjoying it? I am. I have to read sheet music to be able to play jazz, which is so opposite. Like, I can freestyle classical vibes, but I have to read, like, jazz sheet music. But I'm loving it because it's, you know what?

It's made me a more virtuistic, like, singer and performer. Like, recently, now I'll be doing little riffs and choose notes that I would have never have chosen before, but because I have, like, a little bit of jazz relativity going on in my head and I'm like, ooh, that's, what I really learned, I was jamming with Robert Glasper and I was like playing the wrong note, but there's no such thing as a wrong note. It's just like, you got to make that wrong note, right? So when you have that and you apply it to like the voice, it gets real fun. It's weird. And pop, it's, you know, it's melismatic or it's runs. But in jazz, you would call that scatting. Have you ever just scat it?

Yeah, actually, I like scatting more than a malismas. Like, I'm not a runner. I'm not a running girl. Like, I didn't grow up with that part of my throat. Like, whatever Jasmine Sullivan has in there, like, that staircase to heaven where she can just do runs up and down all over the place. I want to do that time that. I don't have that. Like, I have to work really hard for my runs, and I give you one run per song.

One, if you listen to any of my records, I'll give you one. And, you know, thanks to Ricky Reed, he told me, he was like, don't be doing these runs. I was like, because I would try. I'd be like, come on, just let me do one a little he. He's like, that's the one you get on Truth Hurts. Yeah. All right, I'll take it.

Did you work on your runs and rehearse them before you record them? Yes. Oh, my God. There's probably footage of me singing the run over and over and over and, like, hitting myself because I don't, I'm telling you, like, I have to, the thing about runs is like it has to feel effortless. So like I have to do it with effort like first. Like, let's say the run I just did, he, he, he, and then you have to like do it over and over and get into it doesn't sound like you put effort in it.

That's the fucked up thing about runs. But yeah. When you would sing when you were younger, did you sing classical musical theater stuff? No. I sang The first time I really like really sang

was rock music I was in a rock band So it was your band call ellipses It was the plural of an ellipses Yeah I got that Might be dyslexic

But I'm not stupid The How did you guys Like What is this band Is there evidence of this band? I found them on Craigslist. They were looking for a singer,

and I just pulled up on him and auditioned. Is this Houston? Houston. And I would just get drunk and just, I was really inspired by Cedric Bixler Zavala from Mars Vota and the way he would sing. He would just wail. And I was like, I'm going to do that.

So I was really going for that back then. but it didn't, in my opinion, it was so far from gospel, which is the music I grew up on. I was like, it's way less technically skillful, but actually that's not true because when you think about the notes that Cedric is hitting into Mars Belt,

it takes so much skill, but I think I underestimated that. So I actually started the hard way, which is just like belting and shrieking and like whistle-toning all over the place. And singing over a band, Like, you know, it's loud in a garage. Oh, I fucked my shit up.

And I was not very good. Let's be real. I was not a very good singer at first. It took years of playing shows and, like, trusting myself and practicing to get good. And being in the studio, honestly, being in the studio made me a better singer. Were you trying to write songs for ellipsies? I joined them, and I was singing the words that they had already written in the beginning. And then I joined as a songwriter.

But I've been writing songs my whole life. Like ever since I was like maybe like in the third grade, like nine. What was your life like before the third grade? I was an infant. Oh, that's cool. You started there? I was in Detroit. I grew up in church.

No way. Yeah, I was born in Detroit. I grew up in the Codig Church. And in the church, the congregation, the choir. the pastor, everybody was like my cousins, aunty's, uncles, great grandmas, all the elders. We were just all family. And so I grew up in a really musical family. Like I have cousins who are just like prolific bass players and drummers and singers. And so I would watch them. And my mom played piano and organ in the church and sang. And so I just never thought I was like that good

enough. You know, I would watch, but I couldn't play anything. I couldn't sing. So that was first part before third grade. And then so I was like, because I can't. Do you remember being intimidated of your own relatives before it? Yeah, but it's like not even just intimidation. It's just like common sense. When you grow up when like your mom sang with the Clark sisters and the Wynens, you're like, yeah, I'm a songwriter. I was like, I was like, I'm like, I'm smart.

And that's what they would always say to me. They'd be like, you're just so smart, Melissa, say something smart. You know, my sister could sing and I was the smart one. So I was like, okay, I'm going to put them smarts to use and I'm going to write songs. So the Hitsville Detroit Life, like your family grows up surrounded by this culture, right? Yeah, I think a lot of that was I didn't really, I wasn't aware of because I moved to Houston at such a young age. I moved to Houston in the third and fourth grade. So I don't really have that much, like, formative memory, but my, there's stories about my dad's mom, like, having, like, Marvin Gaye stay at her house and having, like, you know, motel musicians stay at her house.

And then on my mom's side, it was more the win-ins and, like, touring with them. So it was, like, a very rich musical history in Detroit. And I think that you just, that's in my DNA, don't matter when I moved away. What's the first song you read? Oh my God. The first song I wrote was called Broken Household. First off, that's really deep. It was called Broken Households.

The first song that I wrote that I remember, exactly. How old are you when you wrote it? Probably 12. How'd it go? It was like, broken. It was broken households. Children lost homes. Family struggling

Battling Now that was the lead And then the backgrounds It was like no more pain No more rain Make it shine No more rain No more pain

Make it shine Make it fight No more pain Make it shine So that was like And I would tell the girls I was like Okay that's your part

And this is your part And then it was harmonies on the low part. No more rain, no more. I was a stacker. I was a stacker. So at 12, it's just like, you know, that's already Houston. So we're jumping around a bit. But who are these girls?

My friends. So anyone who I was like best friends with, I would be like, you want to be in a girl group? Because, you know, it was Destiny's Child, like, peak. Like, I skipped school to see Destiny's Child perform at, like, a Walmart parking lot on Dunville and Westheimer. And it was just like changed my life. And I was like, oh, my God, they sound so amazing.

And they're all singing in harmony. And they run in heels and stuff to be trained. And so all my friends, I would just be like, don't you guys just want to be in a girl group? And they'd be like, yeah. And it was like kind of fun for them, but it was like dead serious to me. And I'd be like, okay, after school, we got to audition other girls and we got to rehearse. And we got to.

And I was like writing raps for girls and running. writing harmonies. And yeah, it was just anybody who wanted to be my friend was also in a band. As a Houston girl, it's pretty well known that you're a Beyonce fan. Explain your love of Beyonce. I'm, I don't, I consider myself of a student of Beyonce. It's like, it's beyond fandom. Because I had the opportunity and the pleasure of watching her and

growing up with her and her artistry. Like, not personally, but you know what I mean? Like, the kids today, they get Renaissance, Beyonce, like, but it's like, man, I got crazy in love, and I got B-Day, and I got I Am Sasha Fierce, and I got four in real time, and I got to watch her develop into the artist as she is now, and it's such an incredible learning experience for me. She taught me so much about how to be perfect. And I was trying to be perfect all the time.

And then she stopped trying to be perfect. And I was like, yeah, we don't have to be perfect anymore. And then she just, like, completely deviated from, like, the pop path and the path that people wanted her to be on. And she, like, paved her own way. And now she's created just a culture around her. That's so hers and so ubiquitously, Beyonce. and so like just everlasting.

Like she's going to just be Beyonce forever. It's a legacy is what I watched her create. And it's really, really beautiful and inspiring to see because I don't know how often we get that in our lifetimes. We get to see an artist like that. Her ability to move left turn, left turn, left turn, left turn, left turn. That would make you back in the same spot you started. Left turn, left turn, right turn, right turn, left turn.

Yeah. She's making sure that every album moves her story forward. Yes. And not your story forward necessarily. And that not all albums are accepted equally or created equally or meant to be consumed equally. They're just supposed to be a part of her life. It seems to do that as an artist, you have to keep your head down. And you can't really look up and see what everyone's thinking of you every step of the way.

are you able to keep your head down? Well, I'll say to the point of Beyonce is like, and I was just talking about this earlier, as a pop star, you kind of get to a point where people will be confused if you give them something that's not the brand. Like, if I put out a screamo flute album right now, people will be like, huh? Whoa, what's this?

Where's the, it's about damn time? Where's the, you know, bum bum, bum, bitum, where is it? And I think people wouldn't be able to grasp it. So it makes me go, I might as well just give the people what they want. And when you're a pop star, you kind of start being like, give the people what they want, give them what they want, over-serve, super-serve. What Beyonce did was like, she stopped giving us what we wanted after four. When she dropped Beyonce's self-title, she stopped giving a fuck about what we wanted and started giving us what she feels like we, are privy to or, you know, should be privy to in her life.

And I'm not there yet. I'm still trying to give the people what they want because the people's voices are so loud these days where I'll put a song out and people will be like, well, why aren't you putting out the rap stuff? And I'm like, I don't think I'm supposed to see this opinion. You know, or if I put out the rap stuff, they're going to be like, girl, we want to see you sing.

I'm like, so I, I'm working on just making things. It's like making things versus the releasing of things. And right now I make whatever the fuck I want. And that's a really exciting place for me to be in right now. Yeah, people want authenticity, but then they judge the authenticity. Mm-hmm. You know, and that's like an impossible place. Are you internalizing what people say?

Yes. I am. What? I'm an artist, I'm sensitive about my shit. But there was one thing that I internalized that I had to turn into a life lesson. I released a song last year. And it was, I love this song. Actually, Love and Real Life, I cannot wait to play that song live

because I think it's just going to be one of those things that just, I don't give a fuck how it's received. It's going to go crazy in a venue. However, I drop Love in Real Life is still bad. Still bad, kind of had a little bit of a disco funk feel, and it was very uplifting. And we were in like the beginning of Trump's second term, and it was very bleak. And somebody was just like, not right now, Lizzo, when I put the song out on Twitter. And I was like, oh.

And it hurt me. And I shouldn't have let people know that it hurt me because now that's like a joke that they say about my music. But when I heard that, when I saw that first, it hurt my feelings because I was like, what do you mean not right now? this is what music is for. This is what, you know, the 60s was all about. Like the most uplifting music, but it was like one of the darkest times and one of the most like politically fucked up times. But they had Motown and all this like bright, sunny music

because people needed a beat to march to. And I kind of got in my feelings about it for a while. And then I realized it is always. It's never going to be right. But just put your shit out. Like, you know what I mean? And now I'm in a place where it's like, I don't give a fuck what anyone says about the timing.

My timing is always on time. So I don't, when I internalize something, I know I'm going to get a good lesson out of it. I'm not going to let it defeat me, you know? Yeah. My wife keeps telling me not to read comments, you know, and I know that I shouldn't. But it's really hard.

Yeah. Isn't it? I don't read comments. I don't read comments. at all anymore. I used to. How did you stop? How? I think like

my trauma response to comments is so like visceral that it's not I physically can't like I'll sometimes if I see if the comment section accidentally opens up on my TikTok or something

like my, I can feel my spine like secrete like adrenaline in fear and I'll be like, oh, close it. Like, I'll do this. Sometimes if I want to comment, I'll do this,

and then write my comment and then send it and then just keep, like, and cover up the words. Like, I'm so OD about it. Because one bad comment can throw off your brain chemistry for the day. Hey, guys,

have you ever wanted to get further in the world of Anne the Writer is? If you ever want to sit in that seat across from me, well, guess what? You can now join the conversation. That's right, because we just launched our page You'll get access to our monthly Zoom hangs where we'll listen to demos, give feedback, you can hang with us directly, and we can hang with you too.

Look, occasionally we'll bring on some guests that will chat with our community. And maybe most importantly to me, you are going to have access to our 200 archived audio episodes. That's episodes of Charlie XX and Sabrina Carpenter and Lynn Manuel Miranda and Shania Twain and Babyface so much. So many great interviews that you can get amazing insight and knowledge from. So come and check it out in the description below. There's a link for you to join us on Patreon. I know you've been working on this album for a long time. Yeah.

And it's really good. I listen to it, which I don't always, no offense to other people, but I listen to this and it's really good. Thank you. You have put a lot of time. Why is it so hard to release an album these days? Ah, right? It's hard.

to release an album in the traditional way. Like to do a traditional album release is very difficult because people don't have the attention span and that they used to have. And album rollouts, you know, it's like a six-month thing. And I don't think people have the attention span or patience for that anymore. Now it's like every day when the news drops

is something insane or, terrifying or unbelievable or never happened before. And we can't keep up with your single that's dropping in seven days. I want the single now because tomorrow I'm going to forget because something crazy is going to happen or someone else is going to drop. So I think that everyone is just like an attention deficit right now and everyone's fighting for attention. And I think the best way to get everyone's attention is drama. So if you see an artist that's drumming up a lot of drama, it's like, well, they're being, they got you. You know, gotcha.

You know, they're selling you something and they're doing a good job at it. I think that's why it's harder for people who are just genuine artists who don't want to get in mess and drama and just want to put their music out in peace. It's hard and it's hard to even reach your fan base because of this algorithm-based internet where sometimes the things you even want to see aren't prioritized to you because everything is like, I don't even know, of like trick you or something. Like, you know, they're showing me shit. I don't even want to see. I'm like, I don't want to see this shit. I want to see stuff from the people that I follow.

Well, I don't follow anyone. But you know what I mean? When I did, I want to see stuff from the people I follow. I want to see stuff from people I like from artists I care about. There's artists who dropped projects. I didn't even know they dropped a project because my algorithm didn't tell me. I know. It's crazy.

Yeah. Even the biggest artists in the world. In the world. In the last two years, every major artist has dropped an album. And it just feels like impact is hard to actually have these days. Like, it just feels like a bunch of asteroids dropped and there's just water everywhere. So it's like you can't really feel impact because everything is just quaking and shaken and busted up. So what's the, who's the audience you're trying to reach in 2020 sex?

I am only talking to people who buy my music, who come to my shows, who give a fuck about me as a musician and an artist. That's it. I think I've done a lot of talking to everyone at once. And when you talk to everyone at once, you get everyone's response. And it's like, actually, I don't give a fuck what you think, because you're not buying tickets to my show. you're not supporting my music.

You know, you can make noise about me on the internet. Thanks for the free promo. But when I'm talking to people now on the internet or when I'm making music, and that's why with this rollout was so important to me, because it's for the community of people who've been waiting to hear music from me. We can't think about anything like, we can't think about being, what's the word, dropping the biggest shit in the world. We can't think about ourselves like that anymore.

Like pop stars can't. You've got to super serve your fan base. You know what I mean? And it'll be the biggest shit in the world to them. And that's all that matters. Yeah. It's hard. That's a, it's, it's hard enough to reach them.

But then you're also trying to predict what they might like, you know? Or do you think that your super fans are willing to go on your musical journey with you? Or do you have to give them music that you think they, like. I tested that out last year. I dropped two mixtapes, two rap mixtapes that I made in like two weeks. It was my face hurts from smiling and my face still hurts from smiling. And I got a lot of mixed reviews from my fans. Some people were like, this is what we want. This is what we've been waiting for. And then the other side was like, okay, but when is don't make me love you coming out? Because it was really good on SNL. And I was like, damn, you know? So I do think back to like trying to, like, trying to,

to stick to the brand, stick to the lane that you've created. I do think there's a little bit of that that comes into play. But with this album with Bitch, I feel like I've done a really good job of giving the Lizzo platter. That's what I've always done. It's like always like, you know, you get a little poo-poo platter. You get a little bit of, you get a little bit of, a little slice of pork over there. You get some rice over here. You get a little dessert right here.

you know, you get a little bit of rap, you get a little bit of rock and roll, get a little bit of classical, a little bit of flute. I like that there's like, you know, I mean, and the singles coming out, there's like, it feels like Tina Turner and you've got like the, you know, the Shelley Piking bitch chorus and all this stuff. It's like it's clearly, you know, leaning into interpolations into a vibe into an era. What are your thoughts on interpolations and samples in 2026? I think we're in a sample hell.

I think we're in sample C-Hole, where it's like we lost the plot of what a sample is. I think that sampling, I think there's a lot of covers out right now that people are calling samples. But no, you're just covering the song. Yeah, interesting. And it's fine because we're in like a nostalgia-based,

society, like nostalgia is a hot commodity. Like everything is nostalgia. Like all the remakes of movies, you know, the sequels, the reboots, the songs that are just an old song from like 10 years ago with a new artist on and some new 808s. I think nostalgia sells more than innovation and newness. So you can't really fault anyone for it. I'm a snob.

So I'm very, very particular about the way that I sample and the way that I interpolate. And when we were doing bitch, it's really funny because Blake, Slacken and Ricky Reap, they presented the she's a bitch beat. And I was like, okay, this is cool. I was like, this is real cool. And I just started writing to it. I do my thing. We was doing a little. We stayed in the Missy World.

And then the bridge came up because we were writing all the way through it. And I think the chorus was, if you call me bad things, I'm going to be bad, baby, get to know me. You'll see there ain't no bitch like me. She's a bitch. That was the old hook. So we got to the bridge, which that's an original melody, original lyrics, no samples, no interpolation. We got to the bridge and I said, bitch. I was like, y'all, what if I just was like, I'm a bitch, I'm a lover over the bridge?

And they were like, oh. And I was like, it's smart, right? We just put it in the bridge. We give them that one moment, bada boom, bade a bing. And then they were like, yeah, yeah. So I, like, laid down a scratch when we were sitting and listening to it. And I was like, if we're paying for it, we're paying for this interpolation, we're paying for this lyric, this top line, this melody. Put it in the fucking hood.

look, bro. And we slid in the hook and switched. And I put my old hook as the bridge and bitch was made. But I was like, that was so, I was fighting it. Toof. And I was like, no, I can't just sing another song. It has to be original. It has to be, you know, I got to be clever with the interpolation. I have to be clever with the lyric melody. But no, sometimes things just feel good. And I'm so happy. And it's an homage. And it's a moment. And it's a, I think that it's people take. songwriting so seriously that they don't give themselves the opportunity to say that bridge is actually the chorus. Who cares that that chorus is this? Let's move that over here. A lot of people think songwriting, especially, you know, I guess muggles out there, sort of look at songwriting in this way that's like, it has to be this emotional response to this, this time. And, you know, this is so precious. Don't touch my song. And you're like, no, man, this is. This is better. This makes a song better.

Best song wins. And you're just having fun with Ricky and Blake. Shout up, friends. Yeah. You know, I applaud you on that. Speaking of Ricky, you know, Ricky produced my last album as well. And we sold, I think we have almost a million streams. So how many of you guys, how many of you guys had?

Not more than that, right? You don't have more than a million streams. I just got my billionaire plaque. For which song? For Truth Hertz. You have so many billions of streams. And we, I believe Truth Hertz is nearing diamond certification. We are triple plastic, bro.

Triple plastic. Isn't Ricky so fun to work with? He is, man. I mean, you know, we started when he was in wallpaper and I was in glacier hiking and we wrote the follow-up to fuck you for Seelow, and we did anyway. And that was like our first song together. Wait, your band was called Glacier Hiking? Yeah.

Like, have you ever done a glacier hike, like the one in Colorado? The Queen Anne. We did one way later in Alaska, totally unrelated to the... Why should you come up with that name if you've never glacier hiked, bro? My bandmate had that idea. But, you know, for the record, like, we were kind of a big deal and very, very, very, very, very small, like, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very small community.

So we were, like, kind of the thing for very short amount of time. And, you know, anyway, Ricky's great. I want to get to Ricky where, how do you get from a parking lot in Houston with your friends that you're making into your girl group to moving to Los Angeles and pursuing music? I'll give you the short, I think, hopefully the short version. I was writing songs and then I started rapping. And I think, like, rapping for me was great because I was like, oh, I don't have to sing.

Like, it's way less scary. But also in Houston, everybody freestyle rap. All of my friends, like, my friends in L.A. will come to Houston with me. and we by 2 a.m. are all doing like a freestyle cipher in the car, and my L.A. friends are like, how come you are all so good at rapping? How do you think of words that fast? It's just in the water. It's something purple in the water in Houston.

And so freestyle rap came very natural to me. So I started a rap crew called the Cornrow Click, and we all had different colored cornrows, and we had some fun songs. What color cornrows were ears? Oh, my God. Mine were red. Mine were red. And there's a picture of us like.

And then that turned into my rock band. I auditioned for my rock band. And then things got really hard in Houston. And I was like, I need to get up out of here. But I had met someone actually Glacier Hiking, the Queen Anne Glacier in Colorado. We're like this. I know.

And he had a band. And he was like, you want to sing. He was like, let's do some like little Zoom sessions or Skype or whatever. And so I was writing with him via Skype. And he was like, you're so good. Like, come move to Minneapolis with me. So I moved to Minneapolis with him and joined his band. And we played for a while. Of course, I started two other girl groups and within a year of living there. And then there was a producer, Ryan Olson, who was like, I want to, well, first off, Laser Beak, drive. this mixed tape, Laser Beak from Doom Tree, the Dune Tree Collective,

they're like a rap crew on Rhymesayers in Minneapolis. Laser Beak dropped a beat tape called, oh my gosh, lava bangers. And I was in a really bad depression and a really bad writer's block. And I listened to like every CD from Rhymesayers. And I finally got down to Lava Bangers. And I listened to that CD, that beat tape, and I listened to it over and over. and it broke my writer's block. And I started just writing in this notepad

and I filled up the whole notepad to damn near every song on the beat tape. And I was like, I want to make Lizzo bangers. So I made Lizzo bangers with this producer Ryan Olson and a laser beak. And that got Ricky's attention, I think. Because I was touring off of that.

I was like opening for like fucking Harmar superstar and like churches and stuff. Slater, Kenny, and just playing shows. And, um... Harmar's superstar is a pretty crazy Minneapolis shoutout. Yeah. That's crazy. That is.

And, um, I actually was opening for him. Then I would run backstage and change my wig and sing backup for him. And then I would run to, while my DJ sold his merch. And then afterwards, I'd run to the merch booth and I'd sell, we'd sell my merch. And then we'd hop in a little rental car and just follow behind him. the next city. Like, we were grinding. I don't think nobody knows about that life no more. These

kids today, they don't know what it's like to have a little rental car driving from like 500 cap to 500 cap, or sometimes 150, 300 cap playing for food. Is it because

why is it that this generation doesn't understand the grind in the way that you grew up? I don't think they don't understand it, I just don't think they can experience it. I just think we live in a different time. I think the grind is more on the internet. Now it's like, oh, there's like, this generation will tell the future, y'all don't know nothing about posting your song five times a day, every day, for six months hoping that it blows up. Like, it's just a different kind of grind. I don't think

there's an indie grind anymore where that takes you to mainstream. I don't think that exists. I think we're losing that. Yeah. I mean, well, what's strange is it's the grind that you did that gave you the foundation to create the music that ended up blowing up widely because of the internet. Right. Do you know what I mean? So the strange thing is that it's the lack of foundation that that's the difference.

I think a lot of people grind in a very similar way. But strangely, the kid in, you know, that's in Minneapolis that just is a big, about to drop Lizzo bangers is now going to do the exact same kind of rollout that Lizzo is going to do also because you're both, it's both in the same box. Yes, exactly. So I think that's the part that's crazy is like everyone's individual journey of that era is not being, it's hard to be an individual when everyone's being perceived from the same box. Whoa.

that's a little deep. I don't know. So Lizzo Bangers. Yeah, Lizzo Bangers. You do this album and you're opening for a bunch of, Haramar Superstar and Slater Kitty. Slater Kitty. And how does that?

My morning jacket. Oh, cool. I open for so many indie bands. Those are huge artists. No, I know. Those are not small. No, right. But indie was huge at this time.

How are you getting in front of, like who's booking you? Who's booking me? Who's discovering this album? I was on CAA and I was signed to totally gross national products, which is like a small label in Minneapolis. And so I had a management. I was managed by 30 tigers. So I had like infrastructure.

And I was, but also like, I was, I was creating a crowd for myself. Like, I was building a fan base by doing this. It wasn't just like building credentials being like, oh, look who she's toured with. It's like, no, now I can do my own tours. Because when I get out in front of this person's audience, I converted them to Lizzo fans. And so they're subscribed. So I was able to gross a million dollars on my own, independent. no label on a tour just because I played so many fucking shows and turned so many

haters into congratulators. Grossing a million dollars is not the same thing as netting a million dollars. Grossing a million dollars is incredible. But to teach people about touring economics, when an artist grosses a million dollars, what's the general take home from something like that? Oh, honey. Not, I didn't take home. I didn't take home much.

I mean, a lot of it is, I was in the red for a long time because you're paying for everything. Like I said, no label. So I'm paying for my crew. I'm paying for the van. I'm paying to produce the merch. Paying for gas, paying for hotels, paying for my hair.

I did my hair and makeup, but you know what I mean? Like, you pay for everything. So I was, my dream was always to be in the black. Like I would talk to my business managers, and they're like, okay, you're in the red, you're in the red for this. And then one day we were in the black and I was like, yes. But then I still didn't make profit for a long time.

I don't think I started making profit from my music until truth hurts blew up. I remember I started making a profit in like 2019. And how crazy is that? I think the assumption is, while this person gross a million dollars on tour, they see these crazy numbers, but I forget who the artist is and someone will will mention it. Some decent-sized artists, I want to say it was like a Kate Bush kind of artist recently

said that they're not going to tour anymore because the cost of touring is so astronomical for a mid-tier artist. Yes. And a current mid-tier touring artist that even if you're playing 3,000-seaters, if you have a bus, you're not making a dollar. No.

You know? And the idea of grossing a million dollars is incredibly, that is the point zero-zero-zero-zero. of touring artists, and the take home is still the red, is still why the grind exists. Yes. I don't think people understand that. There's, like, a huge disconnect because they see, like, a person who, like, looks famous because they're performing and they look successful as a sold-out show, so you think they're rich, and they're not.

Like, all of the things that you see, the production, the lighting, the outfits, like, someone has to pay for that. The band, someone has to pay for that. And I think, like, the artists who are actually making a lot of money, money from tour are selling a shit ton of really expensive merch. They're selling like bombs and stuff at their shows. They're selling like certain experiences. And then they can make money off of that. But it, it takes a lot. It takes a lot to actually make money from tour. What's crazy even about Lizzo Bangers now is that for sure over time it's continued to grow. And it's probably not part of your current deal with Nice Life. It's a.

separate thing, you know, and it's like that generates, you know, the, what was the label again, you said? Um, totally gross. Like, they're still making money from that album. Like, it's crazy the, that when you put out product at that point and you're working so hard for that product, that over the, the success of the future albums only helps, like, the whole catalog is kind of, it's, it's just a comment on. the longevity of your first stuff.

Yeah. I think I want to be, I've been saying this. Like I said, actually I texted Ricky and Blake this because when bitch came out, they were like, woohoo. The video was great. And I was like, yeah, I was like, guys,

we make great music and we sell out tours. Like, that's my new slogan. Like, I don't want to chase anything that's not for me. I just want to be, I want to take my mentality back. Like, when I first released Truth Hurts in 2017, it was such an underwhelming response. And like the massive platform that was going to premiere, it went dark on me.

And there was like a bunch of other weird things that happened that day. And I was really depressed. And I was like, I want to give up. I was like, I give up on music. And then I was like, wait, we have to reframe our goals here and what it means to be a musician. And I was like, just be cool with being a touring musician for the rest of your life. Just be cool with that. You have a loyal fan base and you can scale up and play arenas for the rest of your career and put out albums.

And I was like, okay, I'm happy with that. And as soon as I was happy with that, two years later, truth hurts blew up, number one, three Grammys, da-da-da-da. And then you kind of get lost in the sauce because then you start number one chasing. You start Grammy chasing, or at least people around you have that expectation. So you kind of put that pressure on yourself. And I feel like that was cute all the way till 2023. And I just think the music industry has changed immensely between 2024 and 2025. And I think, like, analysts and, like, experts, they know what's up.

I don't think the general public knows yet. But there was a massive shift in the way music comes out and the way music performs and the way music is received. And I think now I have really. reframed back to the 2017 version of me where I'm like, oh, I just need to be cool with putting out really good music, being on the right side of history, selling out tours, playing a stadium when I'm 80, like Tina Turner, that's still the goal. Well, I mean, let's, we'll skip a head back, a head back to let's go to good as hell. Because, like, you know, you obviously, you know, you release Big Girl Small World between that.

And I think that's about the time when I first came across or when you were first presented in my world. Like Ricky starts working with like you start working with the crew. Like you start having, you know, you're in the circuit. And, you know, even when good as hell comes out, it's like this song is good, but it wasn't good as hell what we get. It's not the good as hell reception that comes later. Is that so funny? I was just saying this to myself. I was like, wow, what an honor it is to what I was saying this about, um, I actually, I was saying it about good as hell. Because good as hell, how do I say this without sounding like I'm like shitting on myself? I watched good as hell go from like a silly like a, just. like one of them silly like, oh, a silly little body positive song or whatever the fuck

it's about. I can't remember how I said it, but like I watched it go from that, a song that wasn't taken seriously, to now it's like gospel. Like, I've watched the conversation around it change. And I've watched, because I love you, go from something kind of like weird and avant-garde to like, that is like the moment in the, in the, in the, show where people are just like screaming and singing like I've watched it become a standard and I think that that is really cool like when you make good music it doesn't depreciate in value it only gets more and more and more like in value like it appreciates it becomes legendary and I feel like all these songs that we think are so legendary now when they first came out they wasn't considered legendary

they was just a record you you think is there like a famous story? about a song coming out that people didn't... I mean, there's so many versions that, you know, Bruce Brinkstein never had a number one song. It was the Manford Man covered of Blinded by the Light that went number one. It's that kind of thing. Like, of all those hits that he had,

none of them were, like, none of them were pop number one, billboard number one songs. Like, you know, there's... What do you think about, like, Charlie X, the X's career, too? Like, a lot of her stuff is coming out now and people are just like, gagging and they're like, this is so incredible.

And it's like, yeah, well, she, this was out. You know what I mean? Like, and I think that's the beauty of music, too. Like, when it's good, like, the timing will always match. Like, you'll, it'll rise to the occasion. Let's do this next segment called the Good As Hell segment. Okay. Name an artist who's good as hell.

An artist says good as hell. I would say, good as hell. There's so many good as hell artists. Missy Elliott is good as hell. She's good as hell. Name a producer who's good as hell. Missy Elliott. Ah, sick.

Uh-oh. I love that. Name a rapper is good as hell. Missy Elliott. A lyricist who's good as hell. Missy Elliott. Okay. Name a TV show that's good as hell.

Severance. Oh, yeah. That's good as hell. Name a restaurant that's good as hell. Oh, my God. I love food so much. What's a restaurant that's good as hell that I've been eating from lately? That's always so good.

Oh, my God. What do I eat from? Goop. I think Goop is good as hell. It's seasoned. I'm shocked. I mean, it's an easy go-to. Is it?

Well, yeah, because we can order, you know, generally healthy food-ish, and it can show up at your door. But it's seasoned. The same as it did yesterday when we ordered it. Yesterday. I'm gooped. Shout out goop. You can sponsor our podcast.

Name a movie that's good as hell. A movie that's good as hell. Mr. Holland's opus. Oh, that says the flautest. I know. I love that movie. Name a song off the new album that's good as hell. Oof.

A song that's good as hell. I would say, happy to be as good as hell. NMPA is our lead sponsor. yet again. What is the National Music Publishers Association? What do publishers have to do with songwriters anyway? Well, unlike artists who can be unsigned artists, there is no such thing as an unsigned writer. You can be a self-published, a co-publisher, a published writer. Publishers only make money if songwriters make money. So, NMPA goes and fights for you. They go to Congress, they go and support the community, they fight DSPs to get you paid more. That's what they do.

They fight for you and they fight for this podcast. So thank you for fighting for songwriters NMPA. Thank you for fighting for us too. Okay, so Truth Hurts comes out. You know, following good as hell, then Truth Hurts comes out. And it's still like, if you saw the chart of for how long it took for these songs to go. You're talking about not just a year, not just months or years. A song comes out, most labels, there's a label that still

is trapped in the like, how did it do in its first week? And we'll just stop pushing the song. And most artists also stop promoting their songs way too fast. You know, why did these songs really, Why did Truth Hurts really break? And why did it take so long to break?

I think that I'm a little ahead of my time. I've always been. But, you know, and I don't say that as a compliment. I say that as a Jesus, like, I wish I could be right on time. But I'm always about, like, two to three years in the future. Truth Hurts came out and it needed, my fans loved it, like, when it came out. I would perform it on tour, the Good As Hell tour. People were like, woo, but it didn't really, I mean, it's not a number one woo, you know.

What happened was is what I think is the new normal now, but I kind of innovated that. I think I was the first artist to have a song go number one that came out three years prior. It was the longest gap between a release and a number one. And then, of course, running up that hill beat that record by like 30 years. But the rule that was broken or that was created was music needs a sort of emotional connection to connect with people on a grand scale. Like, dropping a song because for a long time, the industry would be... give us that. They would tell us how to feel about a song and they would match a moment with a song and just put it out there. And we were all like, sure, this is the one. Because we didn't have the internet.

We weren't streaming. It was just we took what we got. With the internet, it was streaming now, the industry has a harder time making a hit and telling you what a hit is and curating that. There's no gatekeepers. Now you kind of need a moment to meet with the music. and then it explodes in a sort of critical mass. It's a phenomenon. And my song had been put, placed in a Netflix film. And it was just like one, it was this one specific scene where she was going through the breakup

and she was singing truth hurts to herself. And it connected with people. That scene had an emotional, it listed an emotional response. And then there was a stream response. And people were streaming it and trying to find it consuming it and it just grew a life of its own. And then I remember the label being like, hey, something's happening with truth hurts. And I was like, yeah, yeah, whatever. Because I had,

because I love you coming out. I was like, I don't care about that old shit. Like, you know, and they were like, okay, well, we think this is something you should pay attention to. I was like, I was like, I was like, focused on my new shit. And then they were like, hey, so it's on the billboard charts now. And I was like, okay, you know, where, you know, kind of in like maybe 20s or 30s. Then it was like, hey, it's number seven. I was like, what? And then it was number one. And I was like, that's crazy. But I think because people connected it with something emotional, it grew wings.

The space between releasing it and it being a hit, did you feel like you had made it during that? Or was there a point in that? How did you deal with your trajectory when you're releasing songs and they exist? but there's a huge difference between that and it going number one. Did you feel like when it went number one that you made it? No, I was actually very depressed. I think when my song went number one was like a really dark place in my life. But I think that's a cliche.

I think a lot of artists, when they have their first, like, big moment, there's always some other, like, fucked up shit that happens. What was fucked up that was going on in your life at that time? I, and here's another thing that I don't think today's artists, new artists know much about. pre-COVID, like, promo, that grind where you're, like, doing radio performance after radio performance, and then you have a show, and then you have a club gig, and then you have, like, 12 hours of interviews, and then you have a flight, and then you have to do it all over again.

And it was a lot of that, and then I had a lot of, like, people around me who were kind of manipulative and where I was being pulled in a lot of directions and it was really, really dark because I was getting no sleep. You know, we were drinking, working, coping, and you're exhausted, and then this great milestone happens. I remember I was in rehearsal for the tour, and I remember it went number one

while I was in rehearsal in New Orleans, and everything was going wrong. People were like fighting over my attention and fighting over titles and trying to pull me here and there. And I didn't have the energy for any of it. And I was really sad. Like heartbroken over some love shit. And I remember being like, oh, this feels like shit. And they had like this number one cake for me. And I was like, it was after rehearsal. And I was like, I just want to go to sleep. You know, this, I don't care. This doesn't feel like anything.

I didn't, you don't feel like you made it after that because it's just a thing. It's just like, it's just a thing. It's like, oh, number one, I think you realize the impact of that afterwards when you are like, when everyone starts treating you differently, you're like, oh, maybe something did happen. When opportunities are like, of course you can do this and of course you can have this. And of course, here, here, you know, doors are open that were never opened before. And that's when you start to think, oh, something's different. something has changed.

Is that the lowest part of your career? No. I've had... I would say the lowest was still 2017 when I dropped Truth Hertz and I felt kind of like dropped a little bit

by the people who were supposed to support me and like... Label-wise or what do you mean? I had like a premier partner that went dark. My label was celebrating something else at the time. and I think that that made me feel insecure.

And I was just sitting at my apartment in Echo Park with nothing to show for a song that I thought was the greatest song ever in a music video that I thought was the greatest music video ever. And I wanted to quit music. Like, I was just like, why am I doing this? Like, fuck? Like, I could just go work at, you know, smoothie king or something and just, like, sing gigs.

I was like, that was bad. Like, I never wanted to get there ever again. Shout out smoothie king, though. She's fired them little pizza sticks that they got to. I wasn't expecting that to go there. Sorry. So quickly. No, I thought we were going to get to pizza sticks later.

But, I mean, no, it's weird, though, because that moment is a two-year moment. Yeah. It's like you're at your bottom. You're like that album, the song comes out, premiere, part of, goes dark and that moment is two years and then to be able to be like I told you so yeah was were there moments that you had actual I told you so's no I um I think it speaks for itself I don't have to say it I'm like I'm always right I know what I'm talking about you know how did your family react to you having a number one song did did they change um

I don't know. My family is very proud of me, but I also, for a long time, like, supported them financially and still do. Not my brother, but, you know, my immediate family, I am their, like, main support. And I think that, like, that is part of it. That's part of the number one. one of it all and having a family and loving them and caring about them is you, um, you just add them to the, the, the, yeah. The payroll. Yeah. Yeah. Do you feel a pressure from that or is it, is it sort of like, well, you know. It was a pleasure.

It was an honor. I, you know, had always wanted to be successful so I could take care of my family. That was, especially when my dad was alive. Like, I was like, okay, I'm going to take care of him. And then when he passed away, I got like really sad and depressed because I was like, I, what's the point? And then I was like, you still have more family to take care of, girl. So once I was able to pay for my apartment and pay for my place and their place, and they didn't have to pay nothing, no bills, no nothing, like, I was like, oh my gosh, like, this is what dreams are made of. And I love giving.

I'm such a giver, but I also, I get to take. taken advantage of a lot because of that. Good as hell is obviously, you know, a, like we were saying, also had a comeback, you know, when they were like, we're going to push this next. I was so confused. Were you like, why are you pushing all my old shit? No, I was so good.

Because first they were like, can you reshoot a music video for Truth Hurts? I was like, fuck no. Like, I love that video. Like, that video was a vision that my medium, that a psychic medium told me. about. And I was like, this video is just like so good. Then, so I was like, fuck no. So then with good as hell, they were like, can you reshoot a video for good as hell? And I was like, why? What is happening? So we did. And I reshot it because the first video was associated with a film. So it was like

the film promotional video. But then once it started kind of getting legs three years later, I reshot a video at, oh my gosh, what was the marching? Southern University? I started with a marching band, and it was really fun. And then they were like, hey, do you think Ariana Grande would want to, like, sing on the song? And I was like, well, we've been DMing. I was like, I don't, and it happens so fast. Like, first of all, Ariana Grande is fire.

Like, she was just like, what are you doing today? Come to the studio today then. And I was like, whoa. I was like, okay. So I just pulled up on her. And, like, me and her sat down. Victoria Monet was there. That's where I first met her.

And we all just, like, were writing. And she hopped on the Good As Hell remix. And that took it to the top 10. And I was like, how, what is my life? Like, I was so, I was so confused. I said, why are all these old-ass songs? like resurgence, because Good As Hell wasn't in a television show. It wasn't a movie that came out years ago.

But there was no new thing connecting Good As Hell to people. I don't know what made Good As Hell go up. It really messes with the idea of what we all think the music industry is. And you had been in it at that point for a long time. And so for two hits to go back to back that are old, that's really confusing. Yes. And they weren't on my album at all because I love you. And I thought because I love you was like my opus.

I was like, this is the best album of all time. And I worked so hard on it. But then I like slid, truth hurts and good as hell on there. I was like, fuck it. You know? So crazy. I mean, obviously juice, tempo, rumors, you know, these are all, like, it's just insane how big that was. Did you feel pressure to match the success of that album?

I did match the success of that album. with special. I know. I did. And it was so funny because of how lopsided the success was. Like, I feel like I didn't have the same. I'm also a part of a generation, a newer generation of artists that, like, we did. Because you kind of mentioned this earlier about, like, yes, we grind.

I would grind and I would play all the bars and stuff. But also, I had a sort of internet come up. And I don't think a lot of artists before me had that internet come up. But like me, um, uh, uh,

Billy Elish, Lil Nas X. It's all the same time, right? Yeah, we were all kind of coming up with like on the internet. And, um,

oh my God, what was my fucking point? You asked me about, uh, talking about, uh, matching. Yeah.

So because of, because of how lopsized my come up was I didn't drop like an album and the album was like a platinum selling album and then I dropped another album. It was like I dropped singles and then I worked on an album for two years and then those singles blew up and then I dropped that album and then I put those singles on that album on a deluxe and then that blew up and so the blow up was just kind of like it was you know it was just blooming. So I was still kind of like I didn't feel like oh my gosh, now I have to match the success of because I was on a role. So when I worked on special, I was just like, hell yeah, let's go. Like, I felt pressure from the outside. And I was like, why are everybody acting like this? I say, why are you acting funny now?

Like, what happened? But everyone's like, you know, the sophomore, the sophomore records, you know, sophomore slump. And I was like, I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. But, you know. When did you know? I mean, tell me about writing about damn time. I was going to say about damn time, a record of the year, like, number one, I hated that song.

I hated writing that song. Oh, my God, I hated it so much. And I feel like such the cliche of an artist because it's like hating, writing your most popular song. I love the song, but I hated the process because I was done with my album. I was done with special. And I wanted my single to be, I think, everybody's gay. And the label was like, or actually I remember it was, we were like coming out of COVID. And so we weren't in the studio like this.

We were like far away from each other. And so like sometimes we were working Zoom, sometimes whatever. And Ricky had had this setup at, what's to Michael Jackson Studios, the one with the monkey? East, not East West, it's Westlake. So Ricky had this specifically at Westlake. There's two, there are two Westlakes, and you can find yourself at the wrong one.

I know. If you're like, there are times where I've been at the other one and been like, I'm here, and they're like, you're at the other one. Yeah. Got it. So yeah. So the one that we were in, he had a couch in the live room with a microphone for me,

and he was in the control room. And I remember that day I was like, I'm not, I was like, I'm not coming in. Like, I'm done with the album. Like, no. And Ricky was like, please. He was like, I have something. Me and Blake have something we think it's crazy. And I was like, play it for me on the phone.

And if it's good, I'll come in. And you played the beat, you know, but I don't fom, fom, fom, fom, fom. And I was like, I'll be there in 10 minutes. And I pulled up and I remember writing the, like, the song came out easy. You know, I freestyled the second verse, in a minute I'm Anita, and it's a freestyle. And it's about damn time was like a, well, I said it's about that time. And then it was like, no, it's about damn time, you know. But so that all came very naturally.

The issue was the sequence, and it drove me fucking crazy because Ricky was like it just doesn't feel right yet. Like, I think we had like a turn up the music, turn down the lights. Oh, no. This, oh, this is dedicated to all the boys I hate or some shit like that. Like, turn up the music. Let's make it great. This is dedicated to all the boys I hate or some crazy. shit and I was like, interesting.

And we couldn't really find the angle. And it was driving me fucking nuts because I was like, it's done. The song is done. Like, just leave it. Because I didn't think it was the hit. I didn't think it was the single. I was like, fine, you know?

And Ricky was just like, I still don't think it's right yet. I still don't think it's right. And I remember like just sessions where Blake, God bless him, him would be like, all right, guys, I'm going to turn down the lights. And then come on. Let's go, woo! And he's like doing this. And I'm like, oh.

trying to like get my energy up to like match the vocal to the track. And I remember one day, I remember one day we were sitting down and we could not figure out the hook, like just this little part in the hook. And I was just like, I'm going to be okay. Okay, all right. I'm going to be all right. Okay, all right. Like, why can't we just say I'm going to be okay, all right? say, I'm going to be okay, okay, all right. Why can't I just repeat that? I was such a bitch

about it. And Ricky was like, huh. You know, Ricky, he'll have his like, he's like, that's like, he's like, I'm, I feel that right here. And I'm like, quit fucking with me. Like, he's like, no, I really, he was like, that's really good. He's like, lay that down. And I'm like, all right, I got a feeling I'm going to be all right. Okay. All right. It's about their time. he was like, that's it. And I was like, give me the fuck up out of here. Because if you really think about when it comes songwriting, I'm going to be okay. Okay, all right. I'm going to be all right. Okay, all right. Like, that doesn't feel like it after writing a million lyrics. Like, I have a million lyrics to this song. If I could pull up my phone right now, I have every version of

about them time. It was like 83 versions of that fucking chorus. Everything was written but that fucking chorus. And for it to just be as simple as okay, all right, when I'm giving it, delivering it with an attitude, I was like, I was gagged. I was like, are you sure this is the hook? And he's like, yeah, it's like perfect, it's simple. And then like the rest is history. The funniest part about the song is I start loving songs when there's like, Ricky loves putting like gang choruses and gang vocals and party tracks on my stuff. Like, this is a tradition we've been doing since juice. And I'll call anyone I know who's in town and bring them in. And so he was like, come on, let's do the. And I was like, oh, it's party track time. Okay, this must really be the song.

So I had people in and we were like running back, running it back. And then, you know, after the take, people just ha ha, ha, talking and shit. And then Ricky was like, okay, we want to run another one. I was like, anyway. And then the beat came in. I was trying to get everybody to like get together to let them know that we're running another party track. And that That's how the song starts. And I was like, damn, I kind of fuck with this. It's because it feels like a party. It really is.

That chorus is so special because of its simplicity. And if it was as complex as those verses, which are as off the cuff as they may have been, as freestyles as that second verses, if that chorus is as dense lyrically as the verses, you know, then I don't know that. I don't know. Does it...

Mm-hmm. I do think that there's like a trade-off when it comes to like writing a good song. I think if you're going to give us a crazy dense chorus, then let the verses breathe. If you're going to give us a crazy dense verse, let the hook breathe. Or even like the sandwich in between. Like if you want to give us like something, a complex concept in the verse and the hook, then let the pre be just like dumb and simple. Like there's you do there is a balance to it

What's interesting though is like truth hurts The chorus is really complex Yes Like it does all the things you're not supposed to do Yeah it doesn't repeat Why does truth hurts work compositionally I think that's Ricky Reed I didn't know what the fuck I was doing at the time

I writing truth hurts was like Going to therapy Like I had Everything in that song, I was talking about to Ricky, and he was writing it down. I was just, because I had gone on, like, a date with this, like, Minnesota Viking, and my friend who was, like, she, like, was a hairdresser. I went and, like, I was like, I just want a new hairdo, and she washed my hair. And it was just, like, everything was literally happening to me.

And with a bunch of, like, bumper sticker lyrics sprinkled in and, like, weird melodies. I don't know what works about that because when I first heard that beat I was like, huh? What are we doing? Like, I was like so thrown off by everything. And I think Ricky's genius is that he can hear and see things that other people can't.

And he saw the potential in that. And he kind of carved that out of stone because I was not, there's a lot of songs that was very consciously writing. Like, you know, about damn time was very conscious, special was very conscious. But truth hurts, because I love you, was super conscious, working with Sam Harris. I love him.

Truth hurts was one of those things where I was like not even paying attention. I was like just rambling and crying and like going off. And then he was like, you know, you just wrote a song? And I was like, shut up, Ricky. Oh, I did it. And he was like, you did. And he was naming the lyrics to me. And I was like, oh, that is kind of fire, isn't it?

But I think our theory was. If every lyric, he calls him bumper sticker lyric. If every lyric is a bumper sticker, then it's a hook. Every bar is a hook. So you don't need to write a classic hook because people are going to want to say the next thing that you say right after you say it. You give them a couple moments in the verse, like, of melody to hang on to ring on my finger, sing and single. Like you give them that and that becomes earcan. That becomes fun to sing.

I always say it has to be the last line of the pre-chorus needs to be the that I always say it's the bumper sticker for that spot because I think like it if you can nail this moment that everyone overlooks, then like it makes you have to write a great chorus. And somehow like the setup line like always feels like that's like, you know. I don't really have, I don't think that song has a pre. That song, the lyric that's right before the hook is that, and that's the sound of me not calling you back, and we decided to do a lot of hard cut in the music.

It is, I don't, that part doesn't repeat. That, yeah, that chorus is, is mind-boggling. What was it like getting Missy Elliott on tempo? Oh, Dream. Missy, Missy represents so much to me like an unachievable greatness and I had had I had I had I had worked with her prior to her getting on tempo. I felt like I had to kind of like I felt like I had to kind of prove myself to her. I don't know if she I can't speak on her feelings but

I spent like time in Atlanta with her in the studio and she would put on beats and just make me freestyle to them. And it was very reminiscent to Lizzo Bangers because even though Lizell Bangers was written, the way I recorded it was the producer would just put the beat on and then he would make me run it three times and I wasn't allowed to go back. I wasn't allowed to edit. I wasn't allowed to recut. And then what I gave was what it was. And with Missy, it was the same, except it was freestyle off the dome. She's like, okay, now go in there and freestyle to this. And she was like, okay, run it back one more time, run it back one more time. And and we will move on to the next beat.

And I was like, I don't know what kind of rap gauntlet I just got put in, but it was really, really magical to feel like she believed in my talent. And she was like, yeah, you got like a genius brain. And when you have a genius brain,

sometimes you have to just like, and I was like, I actually don't remember what she said after that because. Yeah, exactly. I was like, huh? When you got a genius brain? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I was like, wow, blah, blah, blah.

I was like, genius, great. So then, after that, when the tempo moment happened, and we were able to get her on there, it was just like an idea that I didn't think was possible. But I think because she liked the song and she also believed in me as an artist, like she gave, she hopped on that song and made it such a special moment. I remember the music video was crazy too.

We shot it in Atlanta. and I kept trying to, you know, I'm five foot nine, and she's five for two. I want to dance with you and I'm sophisticated fun. And in the photos I kept like hunching over and she was like, you need to stand up tall. And like don't yield or bend down to anybody. This is your music video. And I was like, whoa. Like she's given me so many like jewels like just by existing.

But then like actually knowing her, it's so cool that the person that you look up to is also wise. Now that's amazing advice What's advice you would give Lizzo when if she walked up to you in a music video If I walks up to me I don't know what I would give myself Would you give younger Lizzo? Let's say Lizzo

Let's go with Lizzo beats What's what's the What's advice you? Lizzo Bangers Yeah What's advice you'd give Lizzo from Lizzo Bangers? It's really hard to give me advice because I've done so well. I don't want to fuck it up.

I'm like, girl, you're good. You know, just learn from everything. Learn from everything good and bad. You know, mistakes are not mistakes. There are opportunities to get better. Let's do some rapid-fire questions. That's the right pace for when you start rapid-fire questions. You breathe, you take your time, and you make a sort of awkward silence.

Describe your relationship with social media. Complicated. How sad? Well, it's a love-hate situation because I'm obsessed with the internet. I'm a internet kid. Like, I'm obsessed with social media. It's how I found my voice. But also, recently, social media has become a sort of toxic place.

and is extremely weaponized. And so it's hard sometimes to be obsessed and love something that doesn't love you back. Yeah, I mean, obviously you had to deal with a lot of drama publicly. So how did that affect the way you wrote songs afterwards? Ooh. Um, okay, there's two parts. Part one is I was like, I have some. something I need to respond to in the music. And I was like, I've never been in this position before

where I feel like I have to respond to something in my art and people are waiting to hear that. I've never been in that position. And it made me, I don't know how it made me feel. Like, there was one part of me that was like, okay, challenge accepted. But then there's another part of me that's like, what can I even say? Like, what's the point? Like, why am I here? What's my point as an artist? And I think after writing a bunch of angry songs

and a bunch of sad songs and a bunch of super specific songs, I kind of landed on writing, I was writing like good shit again that was just like me and I was like this is why I'm here you know and I think I had to like get through that but I've always used songwriting as therapy not intentionally you know but so I I'm very blessed that I'm able to like process all of my things that I go through in life and articulate how I get through it in song and help others that's the point. My, my, my purpose here isn't to write a really cool song that like, it's just like,

ooh, this is a vibe, and you bitch, you know, I'm, I could, and I have. However, the songs that connect the most and that really align me with my purpose are the ones that help and inspire others. So I was like, how can I help? And I think that no matter what happens to you in life or what happens to me in my career, there will be things that try to get me off that path of helping and knock me off my square. But I will always find my way back to the light and back to helping with my art. Yeah, it's interesting because you're, you know, those first few hits are all about being so vulnerable and being, you know, it's this positive, inspiring, inspiring thing. And so do you feel sort of, do you feel empowered or trap by having to inspire people?

I think it's a, I think it's an honor to be in a position where I can inspire people. I think I have, I think if it's a trap, then it's a beautiful trap. Like, wow, I get to right uplifting. it's a trap that I I don't want to call it a trap it's a space that I created for myself because I did it intentionally I was like I'm making

I have to make positive music and it doesn't matter if like the subject matter is dark or if you know the energy is a little sad or there's not a happy ending there still needs to be some sort of positive messaging at least throughout in the heartbeat of the song

or at the soul of the song. And even with Don't Make Me Love You, that song ultimately in the end, the last line of the hook is like, don't waste my time, you know. But there's so much yearning, don't make me love you, don't make my heartbeat out of my chest,

don't make me want you. If you just want something else, don't bullshit me. And, you know, allowing myself to yearn is something that I think I deserve at this point of my career. want a belt. I want to yearn. There ain't nobody out here yearning no more. Everybody just talk about

fucking and leaving and buy me this. And so let me yearn a little bit. But then at the end, what makes it a Lizzo song is, don't waste my time. Because at the end of the day, I'm always going to choose me. You know what I mean? I'll give you an opportunity, but I'm always going to choose me. And then there's bitch where bitch feels like a sort of response to things. But at the end of the day, I want somebody to be able to be like, man, I don't care what anybody's ever said about me or calls me. Like, I can embrace the parts of me that maybe are not always on display or the parts of me like that the way Meredith Brooks put it out there. I'm a bitch. I'm a lover. I'm a child. I'm a mother. I'm a sinner. I'm a saint. I'm, I'm, I'm your hell. I'm your dream.

You know, like, hell yeah. Like, we contain multitudes. We're not just one thing. We're not always happy or we're not always nice. You know, and you see a lot of women, a lot of female artists in the media get dragged for their behavior. It's like, oh, she didn't smile at me or, oh, she didn't want to take photos. Or, oh, this person, you know, allegedly did this and they're a bitch. Or I'm unfollowing them or don't stream their music anymore. I'm not supporting them.

And it's like, hey, bro, like, give, first off, we shouldn't. be privy to every single moment that happens in anyone's life. And the fact that you're privy to every single moment and now you're judging them off of a micro moment, not even off of how they are in general. You don't know what you're being served. You don't know what you're being. You don't know if you're seeing a video from five years ago and then from five minutes ago back to back and you're like, this person's just a bitch all the time. It's like you're not with them. You don't know them. Don't judge them. And this song I thought was it was a party. Because it's not even about me anymore.

It's about how we as a culture have piled on to women and have just started to, we shame so heavily now. We're in such a deep shame culture right now. And I wrote this song to bust it up and to give people an anthem to sing to themselves. So everything I do is still useful, helpful, comes from a positive place and hopefully uplifts. Are you happy? Oh my God. You ask me this on the most hungover day of my life. And the answer is still, yes, I am happy.

I think I was like very depressed last year. And I didn't realize I was depressed. That's the funny thing about like depression sometimes. You don't know you're depressed until you're like not depressed anymore. And you're like, oh, wow. But I also feel like instead of living in that space, why don't I just help people get out of that space? You know, like come with me, like, take your time.

I'm here to let you know it takes time. But you can get out of it. And you might get back in it, but at least you know how to get out of it again. Well, that's a great place to wrap up. Thank you for doing this podcast. you know, I met you once and you wouldn't remember this for a, because it was really in passing, but I was at Gold Diggers, the studio, Ricky was in the next room. I forget what band I was with. And it was just sort of like, you know, whenever you see, like, friends, you're just like,

oh, this is the best. And it's like, when you see friends of yours dive into, like, for him to have the relationship with you and for you to speak so highly of them, it's like, it's, It's so nice to know that there's loyalty in a game that is so not loyal. I don't want to say it's sometimes disloyal and not loyal. And you guys have developed this rapport that when you look at great writing relationships in the history of pop music, you guys have a catalog that has 10 to 15 billion streams or something crazy like that because of the work you guys have done together and continue to do in all the parts of your career.

And it's just like, you know, it's just such a warm feeling to know that, you know, your friends you came up with have found projects that just matter. And, you know, I don't know. If you're friends with my friends, then you're a good person, you know? And like you mentioned Sam Harris, who's been on this, he's lovely and Blake, who's great. And T-Ran Thomas. T-Rond, they've all been on this thing. They're all part of the crew.

And it says a lot about the company you keep. Yeah. And you keep really good company, man. Thank you. I feel very, very, very, very blessed and very fortunate that I came up in the pop music industry protected. I was surrounded by good dudes. And I'm so blessed that I was oblivious. that that's not always the case.

And you hear about all of these things that happen to people who, you know, have gone through so much shit and so much darkness in this industry. And it breaks my heart. And it reminds me that like, wow, I was, you know, Ricky put his arm around me and made sure I felt safe and protected, not only as like a woman, but also as a songwriter and an artist and on his label, you know, on The Nice Life imprint on Atlantic. And even all, and that's why I rock with the same five motherfuckers.

Like Pop Wanzell, T. Ron Thomas, Blake Slackin, Ricky Reed, Sam Harris. Like, Chech-Chi, Lara. Like, you know, I roll with the same little band of people because one band, one sound. Yeah, totally. And you know, shout out Larry Way. Shout out Brandon Davis. Shout out all these people who are like, you know, these. Yeah.

These people, you just have, you've had people who, who from the beginning are like you've, you've, you've had good people. Yes, on the executive side too. Yeah, yeah, that's what I'm saying. It's all around, like, people who really championed you when, when Truth was out and it wasn't a hit yet, those people were telling us about you. So, like, you know, you were always a star in our world. Oh, thank you. Thank you for doing this. Oh, thank you for having me.

We'll see you for the next album. Yes. Okay.