And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 253: Nessa Barrett on Fame, Music, and Finding Herself in Public

Episode Date: June 16, 2026

Today's guest built an audience of millions before she was old enough to sign a record deal, turned a 30-minute crying freestyle into her debut single, and made one of Gen Z's defining breakup anthems out of a phrase that became its own internet language. But her real story isn't the viral fame or the streams. It's the part that plays like a runaway and teaches like a masterclass: how she left home at 17 to chase music, what it costs to become a person in public, and everything about the business nobody explains until you've already survived it.And The Writer Is... Nessa Barrett!In this episode of And The Writer Is, we go deep on:• Why she ran away from home at 17 — a 4AM ticket, six school bags, cops on her trail — to make music• The truth about "i hope ur miserable until ur dead": she didn't write it, it's not her favorite, and why she sang it anyway• "pain" — the 30-minute freestyle she cried through in the booth that became her first single• Why she can't record with Auto-Tune — and what she learned the first time someone handed her a finished song to cut• Signing to Warner Records on Zoom during Covid — and the messy contract she had to escape first• "All of my confidence comes from my fans" — the performer who still gets embarrassed easily• The childhood trauma and the generational cycle she says she's trying to break• Why she closes her eyes every time she records, and writes a song like she's building a movie• The lowest point of her career — and how prayer, faith, and going back to her core brought her out of it• "I've never loved my music as much as this — and I didn't know it could feel this way"And much more...🔓 Want in the room? We just launched our Patreon — monthly Zoom hangs where we listen to your demos and give feedback, hang with you directly, occasional guest drop-ins, and the full archive of 200+ audio episodes (Sabrina Carpenter, Lin-Manuel Miranda, Shania Twain, Babyface, and more).https://www.patreon.com/andthewriterisWatch on Spotify. Spotify subscribers get fewer ads on my video.Follow us on socials: @andthewriterisA special thank you to our lead sponsor, NMPA — the National Music Publishers Association. Your support means the world to us.Chapters0:00 Intro — her whole journey has been public1:37 The cafeteria TikTok that blew up2:48 A childhood with no stability3:45 "A lot of trauma — that's what drove me here"4:20 Why she chose to be open about her struggles6:50 Music as her safe place + her dad's makeshift studio9:22 Her first recording, at four years old10:56 Walking into a real LA studio, terrified12:21 Songwriting as a diary14:17 The tell-all she might publish under an alias17:30 Join the conversation on Patreon18:21 Stage fright, bullying, and the voice crack20:34 "All my confidence comes from my fans"23:44 From cafeteria TikToks toward LA28:59 Running away at 4AM — the plane ticket story32:54 Landing at the Sway House at 1734:54 First sessions, jxdn, and singing other people's songs36:34 Why she can't record with Auto-Tune38:07 NMPA: why publishers fight for songwriters38:49 Learning to ask for what she wanted in the booth42:24 "pain" — the 30-minute freestyle that became her first song45:02 Signing to Warner Records on Zoom50:19 The public breakup, and hearing old songs differently51:32 "i hope ur miserable until ur dead" — singer vs. listener54:07 The truth about who wrote her biggest song55:50 Breaking away from the influencer label59:06 Building a sonic world — writing like a movie63:45 Why she closes her eyes every time she records64:10 Five movies that shape her sound65:12 Acting, directing, and what still scares her68:16 The new era: falling back in love with music70:18 Rapid fire71:27 The lowest point — and how she came back74:49 What younger Nessa would admire most77:19 A message to her parents78:55 "I've never loved my music as much as this"79:31 TAPENOTES: Ross & Joe break down the episodeCredits:Hosted by Ross GolanProduced by Joe London & Jad SaadEdited by Jad Saad Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

And welcome to And The Writer is. I'm your host, Ross Golan. Today's next-gen pop star went from social media star to Shooting Star. Behind her viral clips and charting singles, this artist channels heartbreak, rebellion, and raw emotion into every single lyric. Her sound slips between pop punk and some crazy vulnerable stuff you can't quite name. She's fearless. She's magnetic.

And she's rewriting the rules. what it means to be a young artist in the spotlight in 2026. And the writer is Nessa Barrett. Hey. That was so sweet. Thank you. When I was first coming up, I could make mistakes and no one saw it. I could release music no one heard.

I could do music videos that, thank God, are nowhere to be found. You know, there's all this stuff. And right from the get-go, it's like, hey, here's Nessa. And like, you've done it. gracefully. Thank you. It's really hard. Yeah, it was really scary. Honestly, now, like, it is just terrifying knowing that everything has been out in the open and like my entire journey and like finding myself. I think I started this at like 17. I'm like 23 now and like I feel like I'm a different person every year. Um, but yeah, it's it's scary. I mean,

what's the first thing that you posted that, that was like, oh, people actually are watching me. Um, I don't know. Okay, so like back when TikTok became like an app, um, I was in high school and all of my friends had it. And, um, someone at some point convinced me to create an account and like make a video. And so I made a video with my friend in like our school cafeteria. And it was like something so stupid. But I just like blew up from there.

It was the oddest thing in the world. Like coming from like a random girl like in New Jersey didn't really feel like I fit in at all even in school with like friends. And then having like thousands of people randomly like all over the world being like you're cool. I don't know. It was so weird. That is so bizarre. It's also like super. not natural for a human to be talking to thousands of people they don't know. Oh no, like your brain's

not wired for that. Yeah, it was it was tough. At first though, I like loved it obviously like the attention was like nice and everyone had like nice things to say. Um, but yeah, very overwhelming. Let's, let's tell a little bit of that story. So you're, you know, you're, you're a Jersey kid. Yeah. So you were saying, you know, here you are not. not necessarily fitting in and then you're having that kind of moment. Tell me a bit about your childhood. Hmm. Sorry.

Yeah, I didn't really have the best childhood. I moved around a lot, and so I was in a different school for like pre-K and then a different school for like elementary. and then the same for middle school I moved and then high school I moved. And so I never really had like stability with friendships or like, you know, I feel like some people have like a long, you know, time friendships growing up. And I never really had that. Yeah, I didn't have the best life at home, a lot of trauma. But yeah, I think that's kind of what.

drove me here because I was always really passionate about like obtaining something greater and becoming something better than, you know, just what I experienced. It was pretty dark, yeah. I mean, you've been really vocal about a lot of that. So, you know, what part of the healing process allows you to communicate about it publicly? Um, I think that for so long I felt like I was so alone and I was crazy and no one understood what I was going through. And one day I just decided like if I was given a platform, I want to be that person that is open and honest about like real life struggles, whether it's like childhood trauma or just like, like, all the mental health stuff that I'm diagnosed with

and like deal with on the daily, like, I just really wanted to be the person that I didn't have growing up. And so like having this, you know, need of wanting to be something important and like making like all those bad things have a purpose, I think that's just ultimately like what drove me into being vulnerable. I feel like when you think of it beyond of like your own emotions, then it's just,

just kind of easy. It'd be so much easier to fall into the cycle. Yeah. Did your parents, were they raised in the cycle or did they have their, or did they create their own cycle? Oh, no, definitely. It's definitely like, yeah, generational cycle that I am trying to break. Do you have siblings?

Mm-hmm. How are they? I have two younger brothers. Once my full brother, he left, he was eight years old when I was. left. So we have like a really big age gap. And I have another younger brother. That's my, my dad's son. And I think he's like three. I've probably only seen him like twice. Wow. But yeah, I think I think they're good. Yeah. When you're traveling through all those different places growing up, were they all, were they all in New Jersey?

I mean, I don't know. Why were you in so many different areas? I don't know. It was just so you go wherever you're going. Yeah, I really don't know. Yeah, I just, every like three years, it felt like we were just, you know, just up and left, and it was that, and I had to, like, start over. What's your relationship with music during all of it?

Yeah, I feel like music has always been something that I, went back to when I needed a safe place. What kind of music did you grow up listening to? Oh my God, everything. We were just talking about the Eagles here. But like, yeah, I grew up listening to the Eagles, Prince, Amy Winehouse, just rap because my dad loves rap. And just like so many different types of music.

But my parents both really loved it. And so I think that's kind of. of, yeah, that part of them really, like, seeped into my bloodstream. But, yeah, my dad also, like, his passion, his entire life was to be, like, rapper, producer. So I always grew up with, like, a makeshift studio in my house. I, like, recorded my first song when I was, like, four. Do you know what it was? The song?

Like, the song? Yeah. Okay, so I actually have it. Like, what? Do you want to hear this? Yeah. So there's one. One of them is like my dad's song and I like sang the intro and it was Tomorrow by Annie.

And then the other one I have and it's, he just like hooked up the mic and this, it was like this like really cheap mic in like our in like a coat closet in this apartment that we had. And like we would have to like take out like to like use it. We would have to like take out the vacuum and like the coats like hung up. Like it was like really funny, but this was just like I have a thing of me like freestyling. Oh, I have to hear this. It's the thing also, you know, this I'm teaching my four-year-old about Annie right now. We're going through all the old musicals and stuff like that. And it's a hard knock life comes from Annie and it's such a jam.

It's so good. And you can hear like why Jay-Z does, you know, as a smash using it. And it's like those songs were incredible. Mm-hmm. Were you listening to theater songs at that time, or it just happens that he's like, hey, sing this song when he did tomorrow? I think I probably, I mean, I don't really remember

because I was so young. Yeah, right. Yeah, I'm pretty sure I was like a fan of the movie, and then I sang it, I guess, I'll play you. Oh, I'm so excited about this. The title of the file is called When I Look at You, Janessa. because that's like my full night but anyway

this is like straight up freestyle like three four okay anyway it's just like that is so cute it's nonsense no but it's so it's like you know

we I'm with my kids every morning my my daughter and I were singing Frozen 2 not Frozen 1 Frozen 2 specifically we listen to that a lot because she's always asked

if she's only two and a half But she sings like full all out and whatever it is. And it's just the cute, it's so cute. Yeah. That's really endearing. When you think of that kid now, what would you say to that kid if you, you know, if you could talk to that kid right now, what would you say? I don't know. It just, it really makes me want to cry because this has been like my dream my whole life.

And I really never thought that I would make it possible, but probably I would just tell her to it. Just like, just keep singing and be happy, really. So cute. So you started recording that young, so you're not afraid to be in a studio. No, at first I was. At first I was so afraid because, like, you come out to, I mean, yeah, you come out to L.A. Like, I used to, I was recording in, like, a makeshift studio, like, with my father, you know? Coming out to L.A. for the first time and, like, stepping into these, like, big studios with these,

people that, you know, do this for an actual living in Hollywood. I'm just like, I was terrified. It's scary. But, yeah, it took me a while to get, like, comfortable with it. Well, especially at that age with, like, you know, to go from a cafeteria in New Jersey to, like, a studio in L.A. That's a big jump, you know. That's...

I've been in studios of people who think they're ready to be in a lot. the studio where they kind of have confidence until they walk into the vocal booth. Oh, yeah. You know, and it's like, it's all, it's all like, you know, I'm just thinking of some of the guys I've even met in like kind of heavy sessions where it's like the friend of the artist who's just kind of like got this big ego. And then he's like, well, go in. Let's try it.

Try your idea, man. Yeah. And it's like all of a sudden they like, it's really hard to do it. It's really hard. But it does help to have some of the. reps and even if it's in a closet without the vacuums in it, you know, to get the thing going. So what's the journey from then on? You're getting, you're listening, Annie, your dad's rapping, you're listening to the Eagles. How do you, when's the first time you think, well, I want to

write my own lyric? Um, I don't really remember first time. All I know is that when I just like ever felt sad or like stuck or lost like that was what I would do I would go in my my bedroom and I would just write songs um not that was like my form of like growing up with a diary it was me writing songs I've kind of done that my entire life and it never was with the intention of like I'm going to make it a song and people are going to hear it it was just simply like therapy for me in a way to cope. Did you record them after you wrote them, or is it more just you would?

No, because they were just so, like, even when I was so young, they were always so dark and invulnerable that I wouldn't even feel comfortable sharing it with my family. Wow. But, yeah. Well, made them understanding some of the story

before this question, but what made them so dark? Um, I think I just, I just had a really hard life. And, um, I feel like I'm very open and I'm very honest and vocal about a lot of things that I've struggled with, but there are a lot of parts that kind of like haunt me the most and have that I

feel like because of my public image, I still feel this really weird sense of, like, protectiveness over the people involved. And so, um, maybe, you know, one day I've, like, been thinking about maybe writing, like, a tell-all or just, like, a story about my life and how I got here, but, like, releasing it under an alias after, like, time's gone by. But, um, yeah, in a fucked up way, I just, yeah. I mean, it's such an incredible thing to be able to have an outlet like that, you know, to be able to whatever things I dealt with in my life, it was always, if I spent the time to write it out, it would help collect the thoughts. And then it felt like in some ways it reduced parts of issues that have gone through into a song. And I could like kind of, I don't know how to describe that other than maybe you get that. But it's this weird catharsis.

And when I think of some parts of my life, I can always go back and listen to like a song. Like that condensed what was two weeks of really hard time or two months of really hard. Or an air I'd make an album of it, you know. But the idea of. reducing it to a poem that or a lyric felt like that was a way to um like bottle it up no 100 um there's just like something like really interesting about um yeah just taking all of your feelings and like putting it on like pen to paper and being able to just like read it and be like okay yeah that's that's that like you can acknowledge it and then you can like move on it's almost

like this like movement of like energy um and so like when it's just trapped inside you and like you're living in it and it's like your reality i think like moving it onto something like physical and something that you can listen to rather than like the voice in your own head like it really does clear up a lot of that like baggage a little did you revisit or do you currently revisit any of those notebooks? I've lost them. I moved around. I moved around so much.

Yeah, there was one moment. I remember, I think I might have been in middle school where my mom found a book where I was like writing a lot of stuff in it and then I like kind of gotten in trouble. Just for like the things

that I would just like say. And I think she like, I don't know, I'm pretty sure she like threw it away. And then at that point, I was just like, I don't feel comfortable like writing in a physical book again. And I think around that time was when I got my first phone. And so, I'm big fan of the notes at. But yeah. Hey, guys, have you ever wanted to get further in the world of Anne the Writer is? If you ever want to sit in that seat across from me, well, guess what?

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So come and check it out in the description below. There's a link for you to join us on Patreon. Do you like handwriting or writing lyrics in a phone more? I love it. It depends. If I'm in a studio, I have this book. And I love physically writing. Because it also just shows, like, the entire process. Like, you could, like, it's, when it's all, like, scribbled out and, like,

it's, like, random words everywhere. And it's, like, a mess. Like, you could really, like, see how the song became a song. But when I am, like, out and about, like, if I'm in the car with people, I randomly, like, get an idea, the phone's just convenient. Totally. Yeah, got to use it. What was the first time you performed in public?

Oh, well, I did, like, choir and, like, drama. Well, I did, like, one play in high school and then, no, not in high school and middle school, and then I never did it again. It was horrendous. I was so scared. Why? What was the play? I don't remember.

All I know is that I was a cashier. Okay. And, like, got, like, I'm producer. I got like a two, like, line, like, solo and I was, like, shitting my pants. Like, actually, it was, it was terrible. And then I also, I did choir and then, um, during those ages of, like, middle school is also when I, like, started experiencing, like, bullying and then, like, everything just got little dark that I got so, like, my anxiety got so bad.

And I became, like, so, um, just, like, shy and, like. such an introvert that singing became something that was so scary and too vulnerable. And so I just realized that I really didn't like standing on a stage in front of my school and looking like a fool. But now you'll stand in front of thousands of people. Oh yeah. And I fucking love it. How does that happen? I have no idea.

How does a kid who is struggling to sing at a talent show or, or in a school musical, end up singing in front of thousands of people fearlessly? I don't know. I think it's just the universe, confidence. Also, like, writing my songs and, like, loving them and knowing that every single person in the crowd is there for me and because that they, like, connect with the stuff

and, you know, the words that I wrote, I feel like that all of my confidence truly comes from my fans, I think. Yeah, you have really good fans. Yeah. How much of your fans seep into your head when you're writing an album? They used to all the time. I think when I was starting this, I would always, Like what's something that they would want to hear?

What's something like? What are the things that they like from me? You know, what songs would? I was just always having them in the back of my mind, like, writing the songs for them. But I think over time, like now I really just like write for myself. And I know that I have such an amazing, like, relationship with them. That because I love it and it's me that they're going to like it, either way. And so I try not to think about like anything other than other, okay, sometimes

though, like, I do always go into sessions thinking about how songs are going to sound live. So I guess it's technically kind of thinking about them because I'm always like thinking about, okay, like how, how do we make this, you know, be something that's going to be really cool to experience life? I always think about that now. Yeah, I mean, that's what, arena artists think about. Yeah. It's true. It's like if you,

otherwise, if you're, you can be the kind of artist where your audience sits down and watches you sing, or you can be the kind of artist where they stand up and sing with you. Mm-hmm.

Or sing at you even. Yeah. You know? Yeah. So those are different kinds of objectives. I think it's hard not to somewhat think about what would the fan base be like in this moment. Yeah.

You know? But that said, it's really interesting. and we'll get to it, the last EP and this one that's coming out is a, feels like a departure in many ways from some of the kinds of songs that you started

when you were, you know, when you were first out here. And so that, it's a journey that you can hear your audience having to go through. Yeah. To understand who you are.

Mm-hmm. But let's go back to, okay, so, you know, you're, uh, you're in a school musical, of some sort community theater, whatever it is, two lines,

and then you give up the performing. What's the journey from that to, you know, posting TikToks in a cafeteria? Yeah, I mean, there was just like a few years and I went to high school. Yeah, I mean, I was just like, I feel like kind of just like shy and not really doing much. And then then I ended up posting that video.

So there wasn't really much going on. I think luckily though, like, because I moved so much, like the people that I went to high school with didn't see like, you know, me looking like a fool in like choir like, you know, whatever play that we did. Did you look like a fool in choir? I felt like a full. Which I think that's like, that's like more important. I don't know. I don't know. I do remember there was like one point though.

Like we were rehearsing for like the Christmas like, um, is it called like recital or. Yeah. Whatever Christmas thing. And my like solo came up and like I had like a voice crack and then everyone started laughing. And I was like, oh my God. Like I want to die. Um, but yeah, and so I ended up, like, leaving that school and then going to a completely different town, New Jersey and starting fresh. And they didn't know about the voice crack.

No, they didn't know about the voice crack. They didn't know that I sang. The weird thing is like, you know, even, even if you were in a situation where your kid was singing in a choir and a recital and their voice cracked and people laughed in the in the crowd, it isn't necessarily even like at. It's like, my guess is like the parents and the kids and the. the whatever who are sitting there. Now this is like old man perspective, it feels like, but it'd just be them being like,

oh, that's cute and like kind of like, and then like moving on from it. And then it's like, but to you when you're the one performing, you know, I can't imagine that trying to absorb that moment feels a lot more weighted than. Yeah.

And nobody else remembers that moment. Oh yeah. Well, it stuck with me. Yeah, for sure. Did you ever take voice lessons? No. You just had it naturally? Um, I don't know, maybe. I think the one thing that I heard all the time that made me question if I, you know,

either just love to sing or if I actually could was the fact that everyone was always like, you have a unique voice is what they would always say. Like my parents, like when I would say at home, they'd just be like, oh, great. Like, your voice is really unique. And like, I feel like that's just like one way to like kindly, you know, let a person down a little bit. But even like my choir teacher, she told me I didn't have the right nose to sing or something weird. So it was just like, I don't know.

All I knew that is that I loved it and I didn't make my own ears bleed when I opened my mouth. And so, yeah, but I never did like lessons and stuff. Both of those two things you mentioned are two of the essential ingredients for a successful pop star. is that your voice is unique because you can't teach tone and that's what pops. Yeah. You know?

Like, you can't teach tone. Yeah. Whatever you say about it. And the other thing is, if you have a nasal tone of some of any sort, that's going to cut through a record in a way that you can't EQ out.

You can't like that listen, go listen to all these great singers in history, whether it's like Barbara Streisand who wouldn't touch her nose because of how her voice sounded with her nose. Or like, you know, Michael Jackson or any of these people who had like, like famously, that's what, where you tunnel your, you focus your tone. And it's like you can't teach that. So those two things like those, your teacher or your parents didn't under, maybe they didn't understand it. If they think they were letting you down.

If I meet a kid who has that now, I'm like, you are super lucky. Now it's like a chance, you know, because you can't teach those things. Okay, so you do this, you know, you're 17 years old. You start posting something. People are like, hey, I like this. What's the journey from, hey, I'm going to leave home and move to L.A. And do all that. How does it go from, how fast does it go from I'm posting this to TikTok to

I'm moving to Los Angeles. Probably a few months. I just like I milked the shit out of it and I realized that, oh, I can actually get money. And then I realized like what like that it was possible to go to like L.A. and like, which that was just something that was just such an like impossible dream. Like the idea like just like being in Hollywood. It was just so impossible. to me, it was just things that happened, like, in movies.

But then I was like, wait, I actually think I could probably make a little bit of money and then, like, buy that plane ticket. And then COVID hit. And I was, like, out of school. And I was stuck at home. And I didn't know how long I was going to be, like, we all were going to have to, like, be forced to, like, be home. And I didn't know, yeah, I didn't know how long it was going to last.

And I just, I bought a ticket in, like, the middle of the night. and I left. Like, I ran away from home at, like, 4 a.m. And, yeah, it was as big. Like, the cops were after me, apparently. Like, it was this whole thing. But, yeah, like, I made it out here. And then shortly after, I ended up getting signed with, like,

Warner Records. This is wild. There's, like, a few details that were skirted over there. Yeah. But you leave it four in the morning, but you buy the plaintiff, what on? You buy a plane ticket on your phone or something? On my phone, yeah.

And you're like, I'm leaving that night. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And you didn't tell your parents, you just left. No, yeah. I think they had a feeling that I was going to run away, and so they, I don't know. I've tried to run away so many times in my life.

Like, yeah, but they had a few things. And so they, like, took all, like, my suitcases and like hid them from me. And so I like through like every like clothing item that I could in like six old school bags that I had. Yeah, and I left without them knowing. It was like really scary. And I looked like crazy. I'm like four nine like running around like the airport with like six bags.

Yeah. And is this Newark? What airport are you flying out of? Or is it Philly? Philly. Yeah. Didn't the gate agent say like, hey, lady, this is, you're trying to bring six bags on this? Like, how do you get?

How does this take this? I'm pretty sure I checked them. I, like, kept two and then I, like, checked the rest. But they probably were, like, they probably didn't end up checking them because who's just, like, checking, like, school bags? cool stuff. I really actually looked so sketched now that I'm like thinking about it. But it was like so impulsive to and so last minute that I couldn't get a one way.

I had to get a flight like with a stop. And I think I was somewhere in like, I don't know where I stopped. Maybe like, maybe like somewhere in like Texas or something. And that was, that was scary when like I got off the plane. And then, like, I took my phone off of Airplay mode. And then I'm just getting, like, at that point, my parents realized that I was gone. And I was just getting, like, blown up with office. Did you say I'm gone?

I'm never coming back kind of thing? Um, I honestly, I don't even know if I, like, responded at all I remember is they're, like, like, I had, like, they basically tracked down what flight I was on. And then, like, they're actively, like, were, like, officers, like, looking for me. And I remember, like, like, just, like, running, being, like, I just need to get. on this plane. I just need to get on the plane. Were you 18 at that point? No. I was 17, yeah. Wow. Yeah.

That's wild. Where were you going to stay when you got to L.A.? Um, okay, so I had a boyfriend at the time who I met on social media, and he ended up moving into, um, he was like a part of like one of like the first like content houses in, in L.A. And so... Had that high pass stuff, right? Yeah, it was called like the Sway House. It was just a bunch of like 17, 18, 19 year old boys living in this like mansion in Bel Air. I don't know why I thought that that was, you know, a good place for me to run away too.

Honestly, that was just as scary. But no, yeah. I went there and then I ended up, I think it was like a year of me, like living in these Airbnbs and having to like move around all of LA, like, for, for, like, months because I couldn't get a place yet. That's insane. I mean, those content houses, as you said, were, obviously, a couple of them have created some amazing talent that has come up with it. And the focus on the music aspect of it. What, when you showed up to this house where there were a bunch of presumably idiot dudes running around.

Like, you know, like, I think we all were like, like, whenever you're at 17 or 18 and you can live in a house in ballet or that you're, you're probably just running around like a maniac. How are you, you get off the plane, you're fresh into L.A. How soon until you were like, hey, I'm here for music. I think that was always my intention. So I'm before, yeah, that was always my intention. I think I reached out to someone in the space. I don't exactly remember who. And I was like, I really want to get in the studio. And so I ended up, I had like one like test session at this like studio.

just to see. And then I went there, like, every day. Yeah. Who is, I mean, it's obviously, Jaden was the person you came out, you know, and, you know, you guys had a hit together. Oh, yeah, yeah. And was he already established in the music business at that point?

I mean, I know who he is through certain co-writers, but. Yeah, he was already doing music. then. And, yeah, he was already doing music then. And so I ended up going to the studio that he was, like, working out of, I think. Where are you getting the songs to sing at that point? So the first session that I ever did, I was, like, given, like, a bunch of, just like records to just like cut

which I didn't even know that that was like a thing I was like oh my god there's songs that are already written and you just want me to like sing them um and so did you like that? It was odd but um

again I was just so new so I was like yeah I'm also like my first time like recording and like working in a studio like official one in LA you know not one in a closet and so I was just like yeah I'm just going to do it and um so kind of like warmed me up into recording um and then yeah but that's the thing like I never yeah I didn't I didn't like it is like how do you feel connected to a song when it's like not yours to begin with Um, but yeah, it got me to sing that's when I learned that I cannot record with Autotune. It's impossible.

Really? So from the jump. And that makes sense because I never used it growing up. I don't know if we had the software to, like, to have Autotune, like, while recording. But, yeah, so that's when I was like, yeah, I can't, I can't record with Autotune. I can't record with really anything on my voice, probably other than, like, a slight like verb or else I get like it's a nightmare are you still like that to this day yeah I can't I think you when I'm like cutting like my actual like lead vocals like we keep it really dry some verb if

anything no tune it just doesn't work well with my voice at all I bend a lot and I think it like loses the tone and it just it sounds weird and it freaks me out But then, like, sometimes, like, if I'm doing, like, these weird, like, ad libs or, like, post, like, belt-y stuff, I, like, like, crazy IQ tour. It sounds like I'm screaming through, like, a guitar ramp. And, like, it just, like, I like distortion when it's, like, needed. But, like, actual vocals, like, no, I can't have anything on it. NMPA is our lead sponsor yet again. What is the National Music Publishers Association?

What do publishers have to do with songwriters anyway? Well, unlike artists who can be unsigned artists, there is no such thing as an unsigned writer. You can be a self-published, a co-publisher, a published writer. Publishers only make money if songwriters make money. So, NMPA goes and fights for you. They go to Congress, they go and support the community, they fight DSPs to get you paid more.

That's what they do. They fight for you. you and they fight for this podcast. So thank you for fighting for songwriters NMPA. Thank you for fighting for us too. How soon after your first time in a session in a studio like that till, you know, now you're speaking like somebody who's been doing it for 40 years, you know, like how soon after that experience, you're like, oh, I don't want to sing without a tune. This is actually how I want to, like, how natural were you at manipulating the

to work for your voice. Mm-hmm. I think right away, I really knew what worked for me and what I liked and what I didn't like and I knew what I wanted. I think at first, it was really hard for me to be vocal and honest

because I just really believe that everyone kind of knew better than me. But when it came to how I was recording, I was pretty like, yeah. I think like after, I think I probably like tried to record like one line on that like pitch record. And I was like take the auto tune off right now. Do you remember what that pitch record was? Um, yeah, it was, it was, it was so, it was, it was, it was really cringe.

Is, um, it actually was like, it was, yeah. And to your credit, you've been able, you know, like I was saying, I'm so happy my first 150 songs are not available for anyone to hear. And here you are recording and within a very short amount of time, like people are hearing you. Like you were able to, a lot of people release that cringe song. Yeah. And then they're having to figure out what to do with that cringe song that's now like forever

in the world, you know? How do you go from that to being like, I want to, that's not what I want, I want to be like this, I want to be like that. How is it that you narrow down your, because this is all before a song has ever come out, you know, so you're going through this artist development by yourself or with, you know, whatever person you're working with at the time. Yeah. How do you define your artistry so well at that time?

I don't know I think that I was like going to the studio recording these songs and then I kind of realize I'm leaving feeling unfulfilled because what satisfies what satisfies me the most

is when I'm like sitting down and like creating things it's just like the art of actually creating the song and like letting your feelings like out is why I do music and so that's when I started going in there and being like just give me like an instrumenter let me just sit at the piano even though I'm really bad at doing it and just let me like write for hours or let me just go in the booth and like have you know a guitar loop going on for you know an hour

and just let me like with headphones like I would just like freestyle if that like makes sense like I would just, yeah, for like every day, all I would want to do was just like sit in the booth, close my eyes and just like spew, like random stuff. And that's kind of how like my first song ended up being a thing. It was like a 30 minute freestyle after like it was 30 minutes long. And it was so raw. And like I was like crying. And, um, and yeah. Lyrically, melodically, when you freestyle, you're doing, you're just...

All of it. It's just like, it sounds like so weird, but it, like, I just close my eyes and, like, just, like, really, like, become so open and try not to, like, like, think about it. Like, when I'm, like, sitting down and, like, actually, like, writing a song, like, okay. Yeah, usually how everything just, like, comes about is when I don't think and I just, like, feel. And I just, like, it just, like, comes. I don't know how to explain it. You just have to be, like, really open. You can't care.

Like, don't have, like, boundaries. And, yeah, I just, like, close my eyes. And then, I guess, subconsciously, whatever I'm feeling, you know, just, like, come out. And then it inspires things. It's always different. But, yeah, I just. Which song did that become the one that was 30 minutes of freestyle? My very first one, pain.

Your first song, wait, hold on a minute. Your first 30-minute rant in a studio where you're not sure exactly, you're going in there, you're just feeling has 40 plus million streams on Spotify. Yeah, I mean, of course, like, we tweaked it. We had, we brought in, like, a songwriter that, you know, helped make it, like, better. but yeah, that was like, yeah. That is wild. Yeah.

It's a really bad song, though. You think so? Yeah, I think it's terrible. But it's like, it's so real. It's so real. And just like knowing like where it came from and like how it happens. Like it's like. What makes a good song?

Actually, I don't know. I feel like it very. for me. What makes a good song is if I actually want to listen to it. And you can't listen to it? I don't want to listen to that. That's some profound stuff, man. It is hard to write a song that has a million streams.

Oh, yeah. You know? And then when you start thinking like that's, you grew up, you know, basically in a Philly suburb, that's like Philly 40 times over. Like, you know, that's an insane amount of streams. Yeah. for a song that was by accident. How soon, you know, from the experience of doing that to signing a record deal with Warner Records, how did those things happen?

I mean, people post on social media all the time. They want a record deal. They want a record deal. But, you know, what are the odds of that? How does it go from that to a record deal? Yes, so I was signed with a social media. like talent management thing and I'm pretty sure at the time they like were creating this like jv label with warner and so like like anyone that was signed to this like talent agency I mean

this social media management thing whatever it was um that wanted to do music they were they could like be signed to this like jv label like with warner And so as soon as I started getting in the studio, it was already kind of like in the talks. And I was like, this is what I want to do. So it was in the talks. But I was just like, yeah, but I don't want to sign with the JVI.

I want to be with actual Warner. And so I think I don't really remember it so long ago. But it also was during COVID. So I signed my first ever record deal like on Zoom. and it was right before, yeah, right before pain, I think. So we, like, released my first single with Warner. But, yeah, it was, and honestly, I remember being, like, it was really messy because then, like, I had to, like, get out of a contract, and it was a little dodgy what was going on.

But I was able to end up just signing with the big dogs. They let me go. There are a lot of people who signed out of their respective TikTok worlds. But when you signed the buzz was really positive in the business because of where you were coming from as being an honest writer. So right off the bat, once Warner signed you, the buzz amongst the songwriting community was that this woman is really good. Yeah. When did you end up meeting, you know, Maddie and Yanowski, shout out, Maddie. And, you know, when did you start meeting, you know, some of the collaborators that you really dove in with?

Mm-hmm. So at first I was working out of this studio, I think, for like a good year. I was working out of Sound Factory and WeHo. And then I think the first time that I got in an actual session with like producers, I believe was with Evan Blair. And Evan Blair introduced me into all these writers and stuff like Maddie and so many amazing people that I'm like so blessed to have met. and then we started working on my first EP together. Yeah, Evans, Evan's super talented.

You know, the Jaden songs just so big. Yeah. When you have songs that have, you know, tens of millions, and then you have songs that have hundreds of millions, it has like a different thing, you know. How did it change how you were viewed? your own career when you started seeing, you know, back in those kinds of streams? I was just, I was so excited about that song because that was the first song I've ever had that I heard on the radio.

That was what was really sick to me because that as growing up, that's like the dream, you know? Like you want to sing, like sell out shows and you want to be on the radio. I don't think I ever was driven by streams. I don't really like to look at it. I don't really care. I don't, that really wasn't anything that really mattered to me. To this day,

I really could care less on my favorite songs are my lowest streamed ones. And so, but that song specifically, like, it did a lot, Like, we performed on, like, Ellen and Jimmy Kimmel. And our song was on the radio. And it was just, it was really cool.

That's, like, what stuck out to me the most. I don't think. I, like, kept track of the streaming stuff. You guys had a really public breakup. Is there viewing the, viewing your old song like that? Mm-hmm. Does it change when your personal life has changed? Do you listen to the song differently?

Well, I don't really listen to the song. You don't just listen to your own music? I don't know. Okay, I do now. But, yeah, I don't, I don't really listen to that song now. I think it's beautiful. It's amazing. It did so much for me.

It was an amazing experience. Um, I think just because I ended up, like, dating him and, like, it went terribly. Like, I'm never going to allow that to taint the music. Um, like, I have the, I have our plaques, like, in my house. It's like, you know, I just, like, take it for what it is. It's a song. It's beautiful. And, um, we did really cool stuff with it. Um, Pam, I'm not listening to it, though. I hope you're miserable until you're dead is a really interesting song to me. And I was saying this before you walked in that for years, I've always been under the impression that, and I say this a lot in sessions,

like you want the listener to be the protagonist. You're singing the song of the listener. that's who listens to it. And I was in a session with three women not too long ago. And they were like, yeah, we don't feel that way. I was like, well, what do you mean? You know, this is just, there's a songwriter rules, you know? She's like, yeah, but we think of it from the perspective of the singer.

Not the perspective of the listener. And it really, it really fucked with me. Like, it was like I lost sleep over it. Like years, for years, I've been like, you know, is it okay to have songs where you say this exact lyric is so great. Yeah. And I've been so afraid to write this song in like a session, because I'm gonna know. Can you have it where the listener is like, you're, you know, I hope you're miserable until you're dead is like the perfect lyric to describe this exact thing where if for a lot of people it's cathartic to hear this song.

Yeah. And for a lot of people you're listening to it from a different perspective. and I think I've been wrong all this time. And it's like when I was going through your discography and I was just like, damn, this is the perfect example of how it's done well. Yeah. When you listen to a song,

do you listen to it as if the singer is singing to you or do you listen to it like you're the singer? I listen to it like I'm the singer. Yeah. But I don't think that there's a right or wrong answer. I think everyone perceives music differently. But also too, I can listen to music and just like feel it without like giving it much like thought and being like, oh like, you know, I relate to this. Like sometimes I can just take like, yeah, a song and like, you know, not feel like I'm the singer, but, you know, I like the song.

It really just depends, but I think most of the time, yeah, I think personally, I'm like, okay, I'm the person that's feeling this. Tell me about the day that you wrote, I hope you're miserable until you're dead. Funny enough, this one actually, Maddie wrote it. I wasn't a part of the session, and I think that's why it's not my favorite, which is really funny how it worked out. But when I was writing this EP, I had like a booklet of like all of my song ideas and just like everything that I was like going through and then I was like doing sessions. And then like when I couldn't do sessions, like people were still like writing for me, people that I like trusted. And Maddie and Evan, I'm pretty sure they worked on this song based off of my like book. and we were

I forget what happened but he ended up playing it for me and he was like you have to use it we have to cut it so tweaked to like a little bit of the the lyrics but yeah I recorded it and I think because

I was feeling that way at the time I sang it and it was believable But yeah. It's kind of amazing the timing of this. You know, you're coming out of COVID. Everyone's at home and now people,

you're going, you're, you go in signing a record deal on Zoom. Yeah. You come out of COVID with a fan base. Yeah. What's it like to, when was it after COVID, did you realize, oh, this isn't the world that I, that I was in?

in before. Hmm. I don't know. I think shortly after, um, I don't really remember the exact, like, thought process that I had.

Um, but all that I knew was just, like, music was what I really wanted to do. And I wanted to do everything in my power to break away from the whole social media world.

Um, Yeah, just simply too, because I just wanted to be, like, taken seriously. Because music has always been, like, my first love, my passion. I never, like, joined social media with the intention of being, like, an influencer. You know, so. Die first is that kind of song. I feel like that's, like, you know, that's the, that's what I'm talking about. Like, that's the kind of lyric that just gets me personally.

It's just so well done. Yeah. Tell me about creating Die First. Yeah, I made that with Maddie, too. She's incredible. But that song is just, it's all about just the universal fear that I think we all have. Just that, yeah, the fear is just losing the people that you love. And the fact that death itself is a mercy rather than grief.

and, yeah, losing someone that you really care about. Again, made that with Evan. That was for my first album. But, yeah. Also, tired of California is like that anybody who lives in L.A. Yeah. And who didn't grow up here has this feeling of like, oh, mm-hmm.

This is where you're at, you know? and you can't really leave it once you're in it. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's so crazy because I felt like that for years, but now I love it here. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think I, well, I mean, yeah, obviously I love it, too.

I think it's the idea of the superficial stuff that you can't get around. Yeah. You know, when, you know, the legal toxins. Yeah. It's like, I feel like that's. the lyric that's like yeah it's not just it's like they that can even just be the you know you go to certain places and you're like oh man this if i'm part there's a that famous groucho marks

quote you don't want to be part of a club that's willing to have you as a member oh you know you walk in you're like oh man do i live here too but uh you know all right so let's move on to to to the next era you know um How's a teenage girl era? Even then, this feels like we're starting to move to a different sound. You know, what was the choice of moving sonically? How did you start saying, well, I'm going to, you know, you can hear the gears turning. Yeah, confidence.

I think the more I'm making these songs in the studio, the more that I'm, being very, like, vocal about what I want. And so I think over time, each song just became more me. And so naturally, I guess that that's kind of just what, like, shifted the sound itself. But How's a Teenage Girl? Definitely that project, I really prioritized making the music that I was. wanted to make rather than, you know, it was for the arts, not the charts. Oh, that's close, actually.

Someone said that recently. And I was like, wait, that, like, really pertains to a lot of what I do. But, yeah, I just, like, I released my first album. People loved it. It was sick. And then I just got more and more confident about my decision-making and songwriting and just, like, sonically, like, what world I was trying to build. in what I wanted to say.

But yeah. When you create a sonic world, how much of it is influence, how much of it is copying, how much of it is creating? I think that 10% is always going to be, like, influence and inspiration from, like, wherever you get it.

That's how every idea, like, blossoms and becomes a thing is being inspired by something that's already made. And then, yeah, 90% of it is just creating what I feel. I'm a very visual person, and so, yeah, when I'm, like, writing a song or, like, trying to put together a project, like, it's just, like, so important to, like, word build, and it almost feels like I can like create like a movie in my mind if that makes sense and a lot of like my favorite songs I found from film itself and because like just like the the cinematic um scenes like that you could like place behind a song I feel like it just makes it so it like sticks

with you when you listen to it later and it builds this like feeling and so I try and always think from like that point of view. And so, yeah, when I'm like in a session, I kind of already have an idea of the world that I'm trying to build. And then that ends up like bleeding into like what words I use. And it's like so simple. Like if I'm trying to build like this like dark,

gothic visual world, I'm not going to use a word in a song like, um. Sunshine. Sunshine. Or even like words like destiny. Like it's just like there's so many. Like I have like a word book that I'm like you can't. It's just so weird.

And like even down to like the like simple like sound effects. It's like it's so important because I don't know. I like music is like a form of art. And some of my favorite songs are the ones that I can like listen to and I can like close my eyes and like be there. and like feel it. Like you want to feel it. You don't like, don't only like want to like relate to the words, but like you need to feel it.

And also too, like you can really, you can hear, I feel like when a singer, you can hear on a record when a singer doesn't believe what they're singing and isn't in it. I feel like it's so obvious. Like if someone is just, at least for me, if someone's just like singing words on a piece of paper. And so being like visual when I'm creating these songs,

it helps me like even if it's something that I'm like it's real like the lyrics are real to me but building this world in my head when I like sit down and record it I close my eyes I have to close my eyes every time I record because I need to physically put myself in that world and like be it in order for it to like be on the record if that makes sense so the whole like visual creative world building is honestly what makes every song. I mean, you can tell because you make this aesthetic around each single that comes out. You obviously dive into that. What are five movies that inspire you?

I love Cry Baby. Wow. That was really fun, yeah. Johnny Depp version? Nice. Yeah, it's so good. all like Tim Burton stuff I was really inspired by like Edward Scissorhands

Girl Interrupted This is like a crazy take But Purple Rain like Prince's movie It's terrible acting But it's so good I'm like blanking out right now But there's like there's so many I have like a huge like list of like all my

my favorite movies. And the next one will be like trolls. Yeah. Frozen too. Are you going to act? Do you think that there's a natural progression from what you're doing? Because your music videos and because you're like,

so much is it's not surface level performance. You're not just singing at the camera doing a regular music video. Yeah. Is the natural progression for you to do movies, to do TV, to do Theater. I think that would be cool to, like, do a movie.

I think I have absolutely no experience and wouldn't know what the fuck I'm doing. And I think one thing about acting is that you have to, like, let go of, like, all forms of embarrassment. Because it is just, like, humiliating a little bit. And I don't know if I can do that yet, but I think that would be cool. I do know like my dream is to like direct, to like write a movie and like direct. Like I think that I would much prefer to tell a story and be behind the camera. But I'm not like opposed to acting. It's just like really scary.

I don't know. It's terrifying. You just got to like, yeah. How can the woman who leaves a notebook for other people to sift through feel vulnerable about acting. Like how you're so vulnerable to be able to write the lyrics you write. I know. You're super honest in your lyric writing.

And somehow acting seems more vulnerable to you? It does. I don't know why. I think, I think I have a fear. It probably makes you a very good actor whenever you do that. So there you go. I have like a fear of like, it's really hard for me to do something new for the first time. And I think just the overall, like I get very cringed out,

and very embarrassed really easily. And so I think the idea of me, like, stepping on set in, like, saying lines for the first time, like, with people that are, like, have been acting, like, since birth and, like, you know, like, directors that have, like, worked with so many people, like, being, like, a newbie is, like, that's terrifying. Like, I feel like I would feel, like, naked and afraid. And I, yeah, I don't know. It's so scary.

I think there are probably as many directors who want to work with somebody who isn't jaded in it, who haven't done a lot of things who are vulnerable in their lyrics. How did this next, this most recent era come to be? I just really want to, like, make music that I love listening to. Not that I have it before, but I, I think for a little bit, I felt a little bit lost in my purpose, and I wanted to kind of like figure out how to like regain my love for music. And that was really me going back to like my core and, you know, like listening to all

of my favorite songs and then letting myself be inspired by it. and I've never, like, written fully as much as I have, like, on this new project. And it is just, like, confidence in, like, just for once, I'd be like, I had, like, such a clear sonic vision for this, um, for this album. And I was just, like, kind of, like, open and, you know, I feel like, yeah, I didn't allow myself to be afraid of doing, like, things new and, um, fearing, like, failure like I just wanted to go in and like make music that like I love and um have fun doing it and so I feel like that's just kind of it just like became I think that's something where like I feel like

the best things and things that are just like so beautiful it just like happens without like a reason yeah I just let go and then um made my favorite music of all time yeah you and CJ and you know you guys have Yeah. You know, really become an amazing team. I know we keep talking about CJ. He's killing it right now, and you guys have something really special happening. Yeah. We're going to go to Rapid Fire.

I'm going to just like a few things to talk about. I want to know a few things. Are you happy? So happy. Yes. That's great. Yeah. What's a message you'd give to New Jersey right now?

Be nice. Hmm. What is one thing musically you've learned from CJ? Hmm. Probably is that like when you're creating music you can really just be so free.

Like there's no rules. You can make whatever you want. Like I could like go in to the studio with him like tomorrow and say I want to make like a metal song. And it's like just the art of making music itself is so beautiful. and you never know it's going to come out of it and so he's taught me a lot

about just like freedom and just, yeah, the love with it. What's the lowest point of your career? The lowest point probably is probably like singing songs that I don't feel connected to

or like yeah, I think probably back when I was like releasing things that I didn't feel like, soul wasn't satisfied with. I think that's when I like lost myself. How did you come back from that? Parade, helped, kept singing, started writing even more. Are you religious? I'm very spiritual and I have faith. I don't know if I belong to any religion, but I'm very spiritual and have like,

Yeah, I believe that there's something, like, much bigger in that, like, my talents don't come from myself. It's, like, beyond that. What's a lyric you've written that people don't talk about that is special? Ooh. Um... It can be from this hint. It could be from the new EP. From the new EP.

Oh. Okay. There's, there's, like, I'm, like, trying to go through all my lyrics. Um. Okay. One of my favorite songs on Jesus loves Supreme Madonna is a song Venom. It's like my favorite song ever, but it's crazy. But the first verse lyrics are like my absolute favorite, but I like my roses dying.

I watch as my heart grows black. He only keeps me crying and I keep on coming back. And I feel like it's just like, it's just a perfect like poem almost of how it feels to just be in this like, toxic relationship with something that's destroying you, but you almost like it. But, yeah, I like sometimes you could, like, read my lyrics, and it just feels like a poem. Yeah, that is. That's great. I'm going to steal that.

I'll give you credit. I might even, I'll cut you in on the song, but. What's your relationship with social media now? A lot better. I don't think that one can ever get used to, like, seeing so many comments and opinions about you. But I've really learned, I mean, after, like, I feel like seven years, I've grown thicker skin. I could, you know, see whatever. I love posting now.

I love talking to my fans. I like sharing things. And so I feel like it's gone. it's gone better. But yeah, I don't love it. But it's nice. What would younger Nessa, the one in the homemade booth, what would she admire most about this, Nessa?

Probably my confidence. Yeah, she probably would never think or believe that I, could possibly be getting in front of a stage and singing to, like, so many people. I think she would throw up and cry that I'm opening up for the neighborhood. I mean, that's crazy because I was, like, a diehardt fan. But, yeah, I don't know. What was the light to open for the neighborhood? I haven't yet, but...

What is it going to be like to open for the neighborhood? I don't know. hopefully like sick I mean it's gonna be like really wicked I don't know I um I think I'm like more excited to um watch them for the first time I've never seen them in concert that's been like a dream for me and so I think um just being able to like go and watch them I feel like that is gonna be the most surreal thing but um yeah I think it's gonna be really fun me and my band are like really excited and it's just a really like amazing opportunity that i'm like so grateful for to even like be able to be on a stage that that big i'm just going to like have fun but i'm just so excited to see them play the show jesse's great i know we're biased because he's been on here but he's he's great um what's advice you'd give to an artist who just moved out here you know a week ago because they just

left home um um Stay true to yourself. I think we all kind of have this internal, like, voice in our head and this gut feeling. Just hold on to that as long as you can and not let yourself get, like, jaded and lost in an industry or, like, influenced by anyone else's opinions. Just always stay connected with the deeper part of you that makes music in the first place. Yeah, I think just, like, caring about. the art and what it does for you personally is that's the biggest thing. What about your parents?

What would you say to them right now? Thank you for giving birth to me. And, yeah, I feel like I couldn't have done it without them. Honestly, everything, the good, bad, the ugly led me here. And so I guess, do you? down, I just hope that they're, they're proud. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

It's amazing. You know, had you moved out here five years before you did, it was, it was a very, it would be all singles, single, single, singles. Yeah. Which it, you kind of caught, like, the tail end of that, but we've kind of moved to, okay, well, it's about world building. Yeah. And you're part of a record label that. is supportive of you going down these artistic paths that is really exciting to watch. Yeah.

You know, thank you for doing this podcast. As I'm watching, going and listening to these last two EPs, having listened to everything before and seeing where you're headed and like you're very young, obviously very experienced at this point. but you have you can see where this trajectory is going creatively and artistically and I'm just so happy that you're part of a system that is allowing you to grow because it's really good thank you are you proud of yourself yeah I am are you proud of this album I'm so proud I'm like yeah I've never really loved um my music as much as this and I didn't know that it could feel this way. And so,

it's, yeah, really beautiful. It makes me excited to keep doing this. I love it. Yeah. Well, then we'll have this conversation on the next album. Yeah. There you go. Thanks for doing.

Thank you for having me. And that's a wrap. That was Nessa Barrett. I'd never met Nessa before. So, so lovely. You know, it's crazy. It's crazy to just hear something, you know, someone who's been doing it since they were 17, to move away from home when you're 17

and to just get into the music industry that way, could you imagine? And then get famous on social media. It's a wild thing. The coolest part about her story for me is like I feel like she's just, she's been doing it since she was 17, but there's like a world where it feels like she's also just starting, which is so exciting. And the new music is so good. It's like very, very cool. Yeah, the mistake I think people make when they look at somebody young is that their experience isn't equal to their age. So, like, people think, oh, well, they're 23, so they're young or they're, but you don't realize them now. She had a record deal when she was 17, six years of professional work. You know, somebody who graduated college.

they'd be like, you know, 30 at that point. So it's like, you know, she's done a lot in the music business so far. I think it's also interesting because it's clearly earlier on her journey. And most people, when you interview them early in their journey, they don't have anything to talk about. Yeah. But she's clearly gone through so much stuff that there's a lot she can't talk about still. Yeah.

And that's really interesting. It would be curious to, you know, when she comes on next to see, you know, how much of the baggage that she's currently carrying, because you can tell there's still some lifting going on. How much over time will, obviously her story will always be her story, but over time how comfortable she will be opening up about all that stuff. But, I mean, you know, to be her age and have written as many songs as she's written, you know, it's like she's only going to get better, you're only going to get more confident,

you're only going to get better at your craft. and so it's just, I mean, she's already writing incredible songs. And it's trial by fire. I mean, you start off at that age, and then you're suddenly writing with big songwriters, big producers, and all this stuff. So she's become a really good songwriter, learning from the best. But man, I mean, I don't know, how old were you when you got your first cut? Not 17. Yeah, I mean, outside of your band and stuff.

Yeah, I mean, I was doing the band stuff, but like the first cut in the outside of the band was probably, yeah, like when I was getting close to 30, you know, late 20 is something like that? You know, that's just, this is hard to fathom. It's crazy. Also, just being famous when you're that age is like a whole other, you know, the whole another world. I mean, obviously we can't relate to any of that. Yeah.

I think you see it, but it's different when you feel it. Oh, my gosh. 100%. Yeah. Literally, it's unimaginable, you know. But how much you learn from that as well. Yeah. become a very well-adjusted person considering all the shit and all the public like mental

health stuff and all the like and the music industry and and and and and she's like pretty normal seeming you know like that was that's really impressive i also it was really fun to to see how excited she got when when we started talking about kind of getting into the nitty gritty of the craft even after the cameras went off she kind of like started delving a little a little bit more into the process, and you can tell she just loves music and how much of a part of her life that is, which, you know, as songwriters and producers,

that's what we love, you know? She recorded this new album in three weeks, and that's, and I wish we didn't talk about it in the podcast, so there's just some exclusive content right there. But, you know, the idea of recording an album in three weeks is what every songwriter, producer, artist wants, and yet very few people do it. Yeah.

It takes some guts to find your crew and say, this is the crew that we're going to do it. Let's just buckle down and hunker down and do it. An album is just like a, it's like a blood test. It's like it's like a snapshot of who you are at this time. And if you take too long, it's like that oldest song starts to become something that's of a different human. It's like that blood test is irrelevant, you know, if it's too old. Like it's only just a snapshot. So, you know, doing an 11 song album in three weeks and then, and mixing it, mastering it,

have a release date. By the time that comes out, you know, you can already be working on your next album or have a sketch out the next idea and that'll be your next blood test. Yeah, yeah. Well, cool, man. That was good work. Great, great episode. Can't wait to have her back on.

There we go.