And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 254: Zooey Deschanel | Her Secret Identity + The Journey of She & Him

Episode Date: June 23, 2026

Today's guest is one of the most recognizable faces of her generation — an actor whose voice you'd know in a single frame. But her real story isn't the one you've watched. It's the one she kept secret: for 20 years she's been a songwriter, and barely anyone — even people who know her — knew it.This is one of the more honest conversations we've had about being underestimated — as an actor who "couldn't" really be a musician, and as a woman the industry assumed didn't write her own songs — and about what it costs to keep making things purely because you love them.And The Writer Is... Zooey Deschanel of She & Him!In this episode of And The Writer Is, we go deep on:Why she erased social media off her own devicesThe "industry plant" myth — why the industry "can't make anything happen" anymoreBeing told "you'll never make a record, no one will take you seriously" as an actorHer "secret agent" identityThe misogyny she goes to bat againstHer North Star she chasesAnd much more...Hit subscribe and turn on notifications. Every week, we go deep with the most interesting creatives in music.Join our Patreon for special access, bonus conversations, demo playing opportunities, and guest hangs!patreon.com/andthewriterisFollow us on socials: @andthewriterisA special thank you to our lead sponsor NMPA for making these conversations possible.NMPA is the National Music Publishers' Association. They fight for songwriters and they fight for this podcast, too.Chapters0:00 Intro1:00 Meet Zooey Deschanel1:51 Writing alone — and erasing social media to do it4:49 Why the "industry plant" is a myth6:37 "You'll never be taken seriously as a musician"7:25 Her secret identity as a songwriter11:15 How She & Him released with no name attached13:01 "I Thought I Saw Your Face Today" — never a single, now #1 on TikTok15:35 The story behind writing "I Thought I Saw Your Face Today"17:24 Her dad, the records, and growing up musical22:44 Brian Wilson, Gershwin, and the Great American Songbook26:13 Five desert island albums28:21 Why "A Hard Day's Night" beats the White Album30:16 Teaching herself piano at six32:46 Writing her first song at ten38:42 "I identify as a songwriter, not an actor"42:15 Dropping out of Northwestern45:59 A word from our lead sponsor, NMPA49:23 Finding her voice in the studio — the mic chain51:56 Recording with Brian Wilson & the gifted mic55:57 Why she never sold out — turning in finished records67:03 The lonely sets where her first two records were written69:35 Almost Famous & Cameron Crowe72:50 "I'm allergic to selling myself"76:19 Nobody believes a woman writes her own songs79:00 Writing for other artists & how publishing splits really work82:07 Why she loves writing Christmas songs84:24 500 Days of Summer & music in film88:36 The songwriting trick: "What if I am her?"93:21 Dyslexia, reading scripts & why melody sticks94:56 Why she doesn't do more theater98:38 Staying clean through party-era Hollywood100:50 M. Ward — 20 years, never one fight109:57 Writing alone when everyone's afraid to111:43 The biggest misconception about her114:18 Finding your North StarCredits:Hosted by Ross GolanProduced by Joe London & Jad SaadEdited by Jad SaadWatch on Spotify. If you're subscribed to Spotify Premium, you don't get any Spotify ads on our show. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to Anne the Writer is. I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's multi-hyphen-it entertainer dances between acting and music like hyphens between phrases that need hyphens. Her performances are whimsical without being flimsycal, timeless without being stuck in the past, and personal without excluding the viewer forward slash listener. All the way from here, California, this, well, and New York now. This woman has carved a unique musical legacy because her voice is instantly recognizable, whether on film or on vinyl. And the writer is Zoe de Chappelle. Thank you. Hello. Welcome. Thank you so much. How long are you in town for? Yeah, I'm not sure. I mean, I live here mostly. So I thought you were in New York. Well, I have, I have a place in New York, but I'm mostly in New York. Yeah, yeah. Did you ever want to live in New York? Oh my God, yes. New York's the coolest. It is the best. I love just like the feeling that you can like leave your apartment at any moment and like something's going on outside even if it's three in the morning. Yeah, it's also a weird place when you go when you're trying to, I find it hard to write there because I just want to be outside with everyone else. I like massive fomo there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I write by myself. So I very much have to be in a very meditative state. Like so when I'm writing, so I kind of need like to be inside for like two days. So New York might not be my writing happy place. You have to be in a meditative state in an era where everybody's stealing your attention. How do you get into a meditative state? So actually it was a process refinding my process like through having kids, through having other jobs that took up a lot of my time, through social media becoming like such a big thing that's in the middle of all of our worlds. I actually just erased all social media from my devices. I still like have people posts for me, but I don't look at it because what's meaningful to me is self-expression and I don't get to do that if I'm like scrolling all the time. How do you, this is maybe a load of question, but how do you,

stay in the loop if you're not on your phone. I've never been in the loop. That's how I stay in the loop. When I say I stay in the loop, like I'm staying in the loop of things that happened like 50 to 70 years ago. Yeah. So I am like always discovering stuff that's new to me. But I will say the caveat to that is that I have a 9 and 10 year old. I have a 9-year-old boy and a 10-year-old girl.

and my 10-year-old girl loves pop music. So I, like, hear all this stuff. I was like, I never listened to any pop music, like, basically ever. And then she's gotten me, like, to listen to pop music, and I love it. It's like, we're in such a good era of pop music, so. And then my son likes, like, film scores and old school hip-pop. So it's fun to discover music through them. What kind of pop music is good these days?

Um, I mean, I like, um, actually all, like my daughter likes, she has good taste. She likes Olivia Rodrigo and Sabrina Carpenter and I keep arguing that it's an amazing era for music. And I think a lot of people who are like to be haters, you know, or are afraid to grow, you know, or put in the effort. Don't recognize how vast the popular music landscape is right now. Yeah, I actually, I see it so. much because I think what was, you know, when I first started like, you know, putting music out with she and him. And, you know, I was writing my own music and then, you know, Matt produces it. And and we were really outside the box and, you know, it was very much in the indie world. And what was pop then was very prescribed, whereas I feel like now there's a huge variety of what can be pop music. and what can hit. You know, I think actually the good side of social media is that people can be exposed to music

that they would like without radio, without all these, like, sort of gatekeepers. And sort of just what hits people is what's, you know, authentic, I think. And I like that. Yeah, that's incredible. I think there's a, whenever I see someone calling someone an industry plant right now, you're like, doing what? Like, the industry can't make anything happen. right now. Like in any entertainment, they can't make anything happen. So the idea that the industry can

be this vengali, like I'm going to make puppet master, make this person a star as like, you are not, you definitely don't know the business if you think that the industry is pulling strings these days. Yeah. I are failing hard at that. I agree. And I also think that like when it comes to just the kind of corporate side, it feels like there's so much fear. And I just don't think, fear is ever the way that, like, to go when you're doing something artistic, like, should not be afraid. Like, it shouldn't be, like, measured. It should be, like, unbridled. Man, it's so hard to do that when you're seeing, you know, it's so hard when the industry, all industries, not just entertainment. Oh, yeah. They copy what's current or they try to replicate

in their way, something that they know. It's a, it's, it's, you know, it's a proven entity or it's something that they can, they can copy. And it's, it's really hard even as a creator to be like, I'm going to write something totally unique that no one else is doing. Yeah. You know, it feels like a, almost a privileged place to feel like you can explore art. Yeah. I don't know if that's taught. Well, I think there's one thing that I definitely benefited from was that I was never on anyone's radar. Like, it was like the last thing. Like, I think partially because I was like an actor first, but like I was still writing all this music since I was a little kid, right? And I was always writing music. And I was

always playing music. And I was had bands and I was like in cabaret acts. And like I did a million things. And then I just like, oh, I would do theater and I audition for some stuff. And then I got some success as an actor. And after that, people are like, oh, you'll never be able to make a record. You'll never be able to do that. You'll never become successful. And no one will ever take you seriously. And I was just writing music as pure self-expression. It had nothing to do with anyone. It just had to do with music I loved. And it was because I loved it so much. And I never even knew if it would ever be heard in the world. And even still to this day, even though I've been and putting records out for 20 years and, you know, writing music my whole life,

I still have a kind of secret agent kind of identity as a songwriter where even people I know don't know that I write music. Yeah. The fact is an important lesson for those who don't know who the writer is for she and him. It's me. Yeah. I mean, it's not, it's not. Why do you think people give?

the bad advice to, to, why did people give you that bad advice saying no one will take you serious as a musician? Because there wasn't a precedent. And it is true that there's a lot of, I mean, no matter who you are, I think there's going to be, everybody's going to have hurdles. Like, nobody just has like this like super easy time and with, with no obstacles, right? but I think there was this particular hurdle was that, you know, when you think of actors who then, you know, you think of their, you know, artists, like musical artists that would then transition to acting and they'd be like, isn't that incredible? Like, they can act. But like if an actor did it, it was like, oh, it's like this vanity project or like it's really bad or, you know, and there hadn't been a lot of people to do that. And so I was just told like, this is not. going to work out. And then I met Matt. And now Matt is like the most supportive, like, outside the box person you'll ever meet. Like he doesn't do anything like, you know, inside of, you know, like he just, he marches to the beat of his own drummer. And he was just like,

I love your songs. I love getting to produce these songs. I'm so, you know, excited to work on these songs. Like, I love doing this. And so that gave me confidence. And when we first were working on she and him, it was going to be my record. Like, the first, um, volume one was just going to be my record. And then after we were done with it and, um, and we were trying to figure out what to do, I got really nervous because a bunch of people were like, oh, no way. Like, you can't do this. Like, people like people like was it your not to interrupt but yeah yeah go ahead you know a lot of my friends that have been actors

who've tried to do music yeah their teams are experts in television and film right and they have not a lot of knowledge of the music business yeah were you using the same team or did you have to develop

a whole separate career I had a whole separate team I had a whole separate career. But so it was actually Matt's idea. He goes, you know, I would love to start a band with you. I love working on your songs. It was like, it was fun for him because he, you know, does his own stuff. And that's one process for him.

But like with she and him, he gets to just kind of use a different part of his brain and creativity. So I was like, that was like my lifeline. Like I said to myself, you know, we could do this anonymously and nobody would know it. was me. And then they can't judge it through this lens of, oh, I know what this is before they listened to it. So you were aware of that before you released the first song. You were aware that that was a, the hurdle. Yeah. So we, oh, very aware. And we, we got signed to merge and who are amazing and all artists themselves. So like a very artist friendly place. And then we were like, why don't we send out the first, like, press records, you know, without any information on who she and him is.

It's just a new band. And then all the reviews came back without anybody knowing it was, like, me and Mward. And then that was one of the best things that we ever, like, that was a very good strategic move. But I had to make peace with the fact that, like, people may never know that I write music or when? Was it that they discovered? Pretty soon. You know, because once you play shows, people being great. Did you see?

Yeah, right. Yes. But did they, did anybody change their mind on whether they liked it or not because of that? Nobody did. Or did they double down because? No. It was like people just had already formed the opinion that they, you know, liked it or whatever, you know, without that. You know, the way we record, like, is very unique.

So it was kind of different from what was coming out then, you know. It's great because it also, it came out in, it probably came out the last possible year before iPhones. Yeah, it's true, yeah. So it comes out in an era where people listen to full albums. Yeah. You know, yeah. They would, if you bought it, you probably bought the whole album and not the single.

Yeah. You know, like you could really die. Like, the timing of it. it is, you know, it just came out in a perfect time. Albeit that it was 2008, which is like a tough year. A tough year. But that people could consume it in a way that it was intended to be consumed. Yes, exactly.

Which feels weird because, like, you know, I thought I saw your face today is the number one song on TikTok right now. That's so crazy. It also wasn't a single. I'm going to tell you some fun fact. Never single. Nobody ever thought that was anything to write home about. I mean, people like the song, but it wasn't like, oh, this is the bangor on the record. It was like other songs were definitely more, you know, the ones people singled out. Also, it was of she and him songs that we recorded, that we have recorded. I wrote many songs before this, but like it was the earliest of all my songs. Like I wrote that in, 2000 or 1999 maybe. I wrote it. That's awesome.

And it was just sitting around forever. It was just like in my toolbox. It's in your trunk. It was in my trunk. It was a trunk song. Yeah. And it was the song I was like, you know when you have this feeling where you go, you know, maybe nobody else will like it, but I like it. So I think some people will like it, you know.

It's so great. Do your kids listen to it? Yeah. I mean, like, they don't, they probably aren't like, let's listen to your songs, Mommy, but they do like it and they, you know, they definitely will, if I wanted to listen to a bunch of my music, they would. Do you remember the day you wrote that song? Yes.

Tell me about how you wrote. I thought I saw your face today. Hey, guys, have you ever wanted to get further in the world of Anne the Writer is? Have you ever wanted to sit in that seat across from me? Well, guess what? You can now join the conversation. That's right, because we just launched our Patreon. You'll get access to our monthly Zoom hangs where we'll listen to demos, give feedback,

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Tell me about how you wrote. I thought I saw your face today. Okay. So I had a friend that was going to college. And I was really sad. And I was just thinking about being in the car with them. And he, like, turned away. And his face was against the tree.

And that was like the first line that came to me. And, you know, a lot of the way that song is like kind of like the chord structure is very much because I was in like jazz bands and cabaret acts. And I would be transposing all the music because we had a piano player about like we had to pay him. And like so back then you couldn't just like put it in a computer program. to like sit there and like I would copy music at the brand library in Glendale and then I'd go home and I'd like be transposing it all for us alto girls and everything was up a fourth and checking all the music so I'd be playing through and I was like these chords sound cool you know and it would be like uh it's why there's a lot of stuff in there like Matt was like this is so cool it goes like

you know, in the bridge it goes like from like major to minor and then minor to major. And I'm like, I know it's because I was like listening to like Gershwin and Cole Porter and like this was the stuff that I was playing. And so it's kind of just coming out of a really bygone era. Yeah. I definitely that then trunk songs really checks out. Yeah. Trunk songs for sure. What's also great is like, you know, you wrote that, you know, that's before a lot of the movies that, you know, the.

let's go back and tell the beginning a little bit. Yeah. From the perspective of you as a musician, you know, you're raised in a family that obviously loved art. Yeah. Tell me about the music that you grew up with and who introduces you to what kind of music. Yes. So my dad is very musical and his whole family is very musical. And I just grew up with like very artistic.

Like my mom is an actor. My dad's a cinematographer. My mom is also a writer. My dad is also a director. Like they do a lot of different creative things. And they're very supportive creatively. So like whatever we wanted to do, we could get lessons in. So if we wanted to like play piano or sing or, you know, sew or make pottery, like they'd be like, they go way out of their way to like support us creatively.

And so. This is us being you and your sister. Yeah, my sister. Yeah. And my dad actually had this kind of funny history in music. And that was when he was in college, he put on concerts. So he put on like Big Brother in the Holding Company and Jimmy Hendrix and Fleetwood Mac before the current lineup, like the, you know, early lineup. and like cream and all these shows because he was like, yeah, it was like me and my friends.

And we just like wanted to see these people play and like they weren't playing. So we were like, let's put on a show. And so they'd like put on shows at the Shrine Exhibition Hall and my dad would do the light show. I mean, he's like a DP, so that makes sense. But he loves music. And like an early memory was like, When I was, like, probably like nine or ten, my dad got obsessed with stereo equipment. And before he bought a stereo, like, and like all the shit that goes with it, the amp and the preamp and all the stuff, he had subscriptions to, like, three different stereo magazines that he read for a year to two.

years before he bought a sound setup. Oh. And then once he liked that with everything? Yes. But like, well, he only cares that much about certain things. And then once he bought it, he would, he would take this like easy chair and you'd like sit it in the middle in the weirdest place just so he could like listen to music like in the perfect position. Like it was very, it was very, he was very like scholarly about that, you know, that thing. And when I woke up on Saturday mornings, he was always playing records.

Like he had this old record collection. He played like really old country music. And, you know, he had like a lot of records from like the 70s that I would then, you know, this was like the 90s. I would go and I'd be like, well, what's cool is I don't have to spend my money on CDs. I can just go like get my dad's record collection. You know? And there's like a lot of great stuff in there. It's crazy to think that the songs from the 70s in the 90s is like the songs from

what we're discussing with the first she and him record. That's not any different than it being 1996 and wanting a song from 1978. I know. And like we were born the same year. And so it's like, I mean, this is a circuitous. but I didn't really give a shit that my sister lived before me. Like, I didn't, she was, she was, you know, her life started when I was born as far as I was concerned until I had kids.

Yeah. Like I never even, it never crossed my mind that the, like, I understood music before. But it all seemed so old. Yes. Even 1978 felt old in 1996. And it's all those weird, like, I've told the story recently about, you know, in 1990. 98 or 99, I'm working with the guys who, one of the guys who had worked on Thriller. And that was only 16 years old.

That's newer at that point. I know. For Sheen Amber. Yeah. But it feels like yesterday in 2008. It's like, well, of course. But in 1998, Thriller felt like. Yeah, forever ago.

Forever ago. Yeah. Is it, was it actually forever? I mean, has, because of the abundance of music that people consume and art that people consume, Is that span in a weird sort of way longer than it is these days? It feels like it for us, but I don't know. Like for kids, I'm not sure. Oh, man.

Okay. So your dad's record collection is awesome. And obviously the old country stuff and listening to when we talk about Gershwin and Patsy Klein and the effects of how that really, you know, you can hear the influences and how you write even at that point. A family that's obviously in the arts, you mentioned Gershwin all the time. And obviously, I know the Brian Wilson love. Oh, I have all that.

And Brian Wilson's like my dude. Yeah. So how do you get involved in some of the Great American Songbook? Because that is so... Because that's like what I sang well. So I had like an alto. I like from an early age. I mean, I always liked it.

But like, I remember like I went to this like, this summer camp that was like a actually a lot of people went there it's called French Woods it's like they had rock band and they had musical theater and theater and dance and like circus all this stuff and it was so much fun and I remember everyone always telling me I like I should be singing these songs so like you know and then I remember hearing like um but not for me the Gershwin song and being like Oh, this melody is so good. And the way it would play with those chords was just pretty different from like what pop music was when, you know, we were, you know, in high school, you know. Even though there's a lot of pop music or like a lot of popular music, I guess, that I love from the 90s.

That's just such a sophisticated view to think. I think I liked songs until I realized what I was doing for, you know, until I moved out here. I loved a lot of music, but I don't think I had this sophistication to say, I really like this melody over these chords. Oh, I would get driven crazy by the chord melody. Like, I remember. Who's helping you navigate this weird love?

Nobody. Just me. It's a weird space up there. I was just like, I remember, like, a few things. I remember, like, being, like, eight. And, you know, when you're, like, play Glock and Shpiel in like the music class. And then we learned like a 12 bar blues.

And I was like, oh, I love how this sounds. And like, this is so cool. And I just, I was like, I never want this to stop. I never want this to end. I'm like, good thing. It loops forever if you wanted. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I remember, this is a really funny reference.

But I loved oldies radio. Do you remember K-Earth 101? Did you grow up here? No, but I know a K-Earth, one-O-11. I moved here in 98. Okay, so K-Earth 101 was the oldie station. K-Earth 101. Exactly.

I got it. And I was obsessed with K-Earth, but like didn't want, like once I was in middle school, I realized it wasn't cool to like K-Earth. And I was like, it was like my big secret, like how much I love K-Earth. And there was a song that's like Gary Lewis and the Playboys, which was like actually Jerry Lewis's son. And it was all like probably like Brill Building songwriting. Yeah.

And there's a pre-chorus, and I loved this pre-chorus. And I just listen to it over and over again. It's really simple, but it's just catchy, you know? And I would just get, I loved, like, anything, I would just get, and I could listen to a song like a thousand times, which I'm, like, even now with my kids, like, my daughter, I'll get in the car and then Spotify, I'll be like, like, you know, if sometimes I'll put on the, like, you know, sometimes I'll put on the, like, you know, play. list on Spotify for the kids because they fight over music. And I'm like, Spotify's picking so you guys don't fight. And then there will be a song that's like, you listen to this like 50 times in the last week. And I'll be like, and my daughter's like, you listen to this song 50 times? Why? But I still like I have like if I like a song, I want to hear it like a thousand times. What are, not to divert, but what are your five Desert Island albums? Albums. Odyssey in the Oracle by the zombies.

Pet Sounds. Beach Boys. I would say it's really hard to pick five. That's like... You can pick one more. Okay. I there's a Liz Phair record from oh so um it's called exile and guy yeah it's incredible i love that record it doesn't get old and it is still i still listen to it i'm from chicago so

oh is that where she made that record well she's a chicago icon you know it's like there's like certain there are certain people that just fit in the whatever that's another story i mean if you ask me this tomorrow i might come up with different. Have you listened to all of those thousands of times when you say that? Oh, yeah. And some of these are ones that I don't. Pet sounds, I actually, yeah, I actually still play all these records. There's a Judy Sill record called Heart Food.

I don't know this. Oh, gosh. Listen, it's so good. And she's such a unique singer and such a unique songwriter and such a sad story. What's the story? She just was she was the first person signed to asylum and she was kind of, you know, outside the box, I guess, and a little rebellious and just ended up. And she had like drug problems and, you know, it kind of, she only made like really two records, but they're great. And that one is so good.

And I think is, yeah, it's one I've listened to a thousand times. I'm going to say like something controversial and that is that my favorite Beatles record is Hard Day's Night. Oh, okay. Because I think it's perfect. It's so perfect. It's funny. I had this, a friend of mine, press max and shout out,

wrote this article about the White Album and he called me the other day and he said, he's like, you know, what do you think about the White album? I was like, well, I think what's weird about the white album is that there are a bunch, and this is the controversy here, is like, there are a bunch of songs in it that aren't good. And this is hard to say because the Beatles are the greatest band of all time. There's nothing that beats the Beatles. And the White Album is great.

Yeah. It's great. But I think that that's what happens when you get, when there's no adult in the room to say like, hey, we don't need all. Let's rein it in a little bit. And let's edit. What people love about it is that there is no edit so you can see all the, you can hear Honey Pie and songs like that. But it was just an interesting debate of like, of all the albums, you know, that's a lot of people's favorite.

And I find that, I find it to be unfocused in a way that makes it great, but also is like, I would rather listen to Hard Day's Night also. Hard Day's Night to me is such an album. Like it is start to finish. Everything makes sense. song to song. It's perfect. I don't dislike any song on that record. I like every single one, I'm like, yes. Like, this is on. Yes. Like, I'm, I'm so stoked the whole time I'm listening to Hardy's Night. And I just, and I also love the movie so much. And the way that it plays as the soundtrack,

it's just so good. When do you start playing piano? So I was, I started teaching myself to play piano when I was about six. And my parents told me I couldn't take lessons until I was eight. Why? My mom got worried that I wouldn't like stick with it unless I was like serious, like old enough to be serious. But there was like no keeping me. It was almost like you need to like lock up this instrument. And then every night and it's not an like like I talk about this like I'm like, you know, I've been playing piano my entire life, but like I'm not a great piano player. Like, I'm, piano is my instrument that I understand music the most on because it's linear. And that's just how I learn music theory.

And, and it's a songwriting tool for me. And so I'll play on tour, but it's not like you'd be like, yeah, I can't wait to hear her shred on piano. Like, I'm not a great piano player. But I love it and I love it as a songwriting tool for myself. And many people play much, much better than me. But I was obsessed. And growing up, I would say, like, we'd be clearing the dishes. And I'd be like, you cleared the dishes.

I'll be the entertainment. And my sister would get so annoyed because my parents would let me. They'd be like, well, you know, she's entertained. That is so messed up. Like, this goes back to the thing of, like, not giving me a shit about your older siblings having to, like, deal with the younger sibling being like, okay, my job here is this. entertaining, yeah. But your sister's an entertainer too. She is.

So she was doubly angry. She was doubly angry. Yeah, yeah. She was probably more of a rule follower than, you know, as older, she's my older sister. So, you know, as older siblings tend to be. I think the person who plays piano well enough to know theory and these are where the chords go makes a good songwriter. And the one who knows how to shred is often somebody that you have to also rein in to

be like this is great, but, you know, I don't know where, I don't, where's it going. Yeah, and it's hard. As they say, like, writing their tracks is like writing a screenplay to special effects. Right. It feels like when you're a ultra-arpeggiating kind of piano player that's moving, you know, modals and doing the whole thing that it can be really hard to follow. Right. And it can be really hard to write a good song out of those.

That's true. So you go into, you're starting to play piano. You're singing K Earth 101 songs. Yeah. I'm getting the picture here. What is, when's the first time you decided to write a song? I was like about 10 or 11 and I remember being like, mom, I got to write this song. And it's like it was about a fair and it was about a fair.

A fair, like a fun fair. Wow. So insane. Yeah. I'm like, it's called Dark End of the Super. No. No, I, no, it was about a, like, a fun fair. And it was like, I'm having fun at the fair.

It was like, it was basically a melody that exists for sure. But I was really excited about it. And I wrote it out in giant letters on poster boards. And my mom helped me. Like, she's like super supportive, like the most supportive mom. And I had all the chords. And I mean, it was like, like, you know, three chords.

But it was, it was like, oh, wow. The coolest thing about songwriting that I think is that you like, you can walk into a room and there's no song and then you walk out of a room and there's a song. And you're like, where did it come from? I don't know. Yeah, for however mathematical songwriting is or music theory is, there's nothing more magical than walking out of a room with a song. I always say, like, I don't know if I love, I don't know if I love writing songs, but I love having written a song.

Yes. So I don't mind going through the pain of, I know this isn't right. What is it? It can't be that. There's got to be a thing here. I also, like, am never, it's so funny because when I see your, like, studio setups that look so, like, cushy and, like, just, I'm always sitting on the floor with, like, sheets of paper that have been, like, ripped out of an art book or something, sprawling, like, you know, like, you know, like. lyrics and then they're crossed out and there's like like chords written. I'm like which wait what did I play? You know it always feels like total chaos that I have to like like that I'm

swimming through to get to that end like I've written a song. I write more on the floor in that room than I set up I put my guitar there. It's how I played growing up. I have a whiteboard. I put the whiteboard on the ground. And I write sitting on the floor all the time. It's something about sitting on the floor. Like, I mean, I'll be at my piano, but then I got this little keyboard so I could, like this tiny little keyboard just so I could sit on the floor, like just because it's... Do you write in the same way every time when you walk into a room? Yeah. I mean, I usually have, like, like, I figured out that it's a lot easier. Like, if I'm like, okay, I need to spend this next three days writing, that's, like, the amount of time I need, like, to write a few songs.

Like, I just need to leave that much time. It's, like, take off. I think of it, like, takeoff and landing. They're like, I don't, I can't be like, oh, I'm going to spend those two hours, like, working on music. Like, like, maybe I could practice a song, but I can't write a song. Like, I can't get any meaningful work done in two hours. Like, I wish I could, but I need, like, a lot of time. And I need, and I love to have multiple days in a row. So I normally like, I like information gather. So I'll be like if I hear a phrase I like or, you know, I have like a song idea. I'm like, ooh, that would be a fun subject for a song or something like that or a melody.

And then I'll record, you know, like if I'm in the car, I might like hear a melody in my head and I'll just like record it on memos. Or I'll like if I hear a, you know, if I think of a lyric or I hear someone's. say something interesting that feels like, ooh, that sounds like, that's like a good lyric. I'll just like write it down. And then I have a giant like just folder full of just ideas. And then when I sit down to write, I have a bunch of ideas. Do you identify as a songwriter or an actor? Songwriter way more. It's the thing I'm way more proud of. I mean, I like acting, but it's so collaborative. Like you're, I mean, to make a film, it's like 150 people.

And I love doing it, but a lot of times you're at the mercy of a lot of other people's work. And, you know, you could work really hard on something. It could not turn out how you want or, you know, even my performance might not even turn out how I want because it's really hard to control. Yeah, somebody else can edit, you know, your performance to look a certain. Yeah, you have totally different timing and you know, and you never know what's going to make it or not. You could be directed to do something that feels really like wrong to you and then you could be kind of pressured into doing that. I mean, there's a lot of stuff with acting, even though I really enjoy it. And it's, I like having multiple creative outlets.

But songwriting is like, this is like 100% me and they're like my babies. Like the songs are like my babies. And, and like making records with my. it's really just super tight collaboration because it's just me and Matt and our engineer and then we'll bring in people to like, you know, come and play stuff. But like usually Matt does all the guitars. I do like all the vocals and I stack a lot of vocals. And it's very, it's just very much us, you know. Did, you know, and we'll get to still some of the process. But going through, you know, it looked like you had a pretty busy schedule for, you know, a good 15 years of just nonstop, nonstop.

Nonstop, yeah. And then adding kids in the whole thing. Yeah. When you identify as a songwriter, how did you find time or the brains? I didn't. I like stop writing music for a really long time. And that's why when we, like, we made a lot of, like, records that were like Christmas records or things like that because I was just like, I don't have time. And it wasn't until like actually this last year that I was like, okay, I miss writing music so much.

It's actually the thing I'm most proud of in my life and that I want to be focusing on those things that I'm most, like that I most closely align with like my identity. And that really, and then I started thinking about how like how I need to set up my time to be able to do that. Because when I was single and childless, I could just have a weekend free. And it was never like you have to go to the school play or the dance concert or the taekwondo, you know, belt test or whatever. And I realize I'm like, oh, no. And because I don't write really, I would actually love to write with other people sometimes. Like, not necessarily for she and him. but because mostly I write by myself,

I have to make myself right. So I have to say I'm not doing anything for three days except writing. Does your team appreciate that or do they lament that? I think they appreciate it. I don't, I haven't like acting, like the movie business is really weird right now. now. So it's actually kind of a good time to be, like, doing more of this stuff because, like, movie and TV has been weird for a while. And I'm like, you know, this is, this actually fits into my life. I just have to figure out. And so I've been writing a ton and we've been recording, which is really nice. Yeah, that's amazing. Okay. So, um, you write a song about a fair. Yeah. You do, just be clear. Yeah. Just the weirdest.

like a carnival a carnival okay i wrote a song about it a carnival um um i saw you with another man at this carnival it's a fair a fair double double double level maybe uh see i this this it's a great idea um a trademark that's not that's not how a song or any words and you can't trademark a song okay um so you write uh keep going down this this process of it yeah so then in high school I would write music, but I actually never played it. Well, I mean, I might play it for a friend or two, but I didn't, I didn't really, I was so shy about playing anything for anyone. So I, I really like, I was for so long building up a chest of songs, you know, because I would, I was in bands, but we'd always, it was always like bands covering other things. Like I had, like, a band in high school and then. What kind of covers? I mean, they would still be oldies, but, like, not, maybe not old oldies. Like, more like Joni Mitchell's kind of stuff.

Another artist I love. But, and then then cabaret, like, doing, like, this old, like, American songbook stuff. While you're in high school. In high school. And then, like, after high school. Because I went to college for one year and then dropped out. Where did you go? Northwestern.

Oh, nice. Yeah. You're in Allison. What was your... I was in 1835 Hymond. Okay. Yeah. I was a cherub there.

You were? Yeah, I was a theater chair. Okay. My brother-in-law did that, actually. He didn't end up going to Northwestern, but he's older than us. Yeah. Yeah. He was a theater.

A lot of people. My sister was a cherub. A lot of people went on to do great things after cherubs. I'm the director, the producer of the show I had off-Broadway was, was a cherub, the woman who started second stage where I had another show. Yeah. She was a cherub. There's a bunch of people that I know that are cherubs. And, you know, I know producers of movies.

Yeah, it's like a real thing. Yeah, because my brother-in-law is like a comedy writer and an actor. And then he just wrote a show on Broadway. Oh, great. And then like all his friends who were cherubs were also very successful. It's a weird thing. Because had I gotten into school for theater, maybe people would have, I have the opposite journey. Maybe people would have taken me seriously as a composer for theater.

But I got a record deal in college. And then by the time I had to have number one songs before people were like, oh, that thing you wrote, that's actually like really good theater. We should see what that does over there. And then I started working in theater because of that. You know, it's a weird journey if you end up, you know. Well, I think the thing that's annoying is when, do you have kids? I have two. They're much, they're not much younger because your kids are young too,

but they're, you know, about to be five and two and a half. Yeah, but you see with kids, they're so creative. And there's no limits to their creativity. I mean, my kids are like crazy creative and in so many different ways. And they never limit themselves. They're like making stop motion movies and singing, making up songs and writing poems. and making, you know, like, like making clothes, I mean, everything. And then you get into the real world and people are like, oh, well, you're a song writer,

but you can't write songs for Broadway. And you go, like, why not? None of this makes sense. Like, we should all be as limited. Like, we all should think in an unlimited way versus a limited way, you know? I knew when going to, like, when you were saying how you had to, like, you purpose. hid the she and him lineup until people recognize the thing. When I first saw reviews of a show that I did in New York,

I knew they liked it if they said, you know, has written for Adina and Boubley and Celine. But I knew that they didn't like it when they would say, like, wrote for Nikki Minaj and Justin Bieber. And I knew what the rest of the review would say, because they had already decided, I think, before they even saw it, whether it was of the standard that it needed to be. Or whether it was worthy. My biography was, you know, whatever you call it, resume was worthy of the stage.

Right. Which is so crazy because it's like how can you be inventive in artistic mediums if you're not thinking outside of the. box. But I think everyone really wants to be snap back to the box. Yeah. NMPA is our lead sponsor yet again. What is the National Music Publishers Association? What do publishers have to do as songwriters anyway? Well, unlike artists who can be unsigned artists, there is no such thing as an unsigned writer. You can be a self-published, a co-pubisher, a published writer. Publishers only make money if songwriters make money. So NMPA goes and fights for for you. They go to Congress. They go and support the community. They fight DSPs to get you

paid more. That's what they do. They fight for you and they fight for this podcast. So thank you for fighting for songwriters NMPA. Thank you for fighting for us too. When's the first time you go into a studio? Oh gosh. So like... Did you do the cabaret stuff? Was that all, any of it recorded? No, no. We didn't record any of it. But I did like, so actually, I did have this weird realization. It took me a while to find my voice in the studio. Like how, I mean, that's like a whole other thing, but like, you know how it is with microphones? And it's why I've become like a microphone kind of nerd, like vocal chain.

Like I just, I have a unique voice that's very low. I mean, I can sing high, but like probably like my best. parts of my voice are low and but I can you know it's like on stage I have a lot of power but in the studio if I use power it doesn't it doesn't translate like it doesn't if I use power in the studio it normally is like not that great but if if I use my tone which is what I realized later was probably the best part of my voice that and that I find the mics um that work for me and like the whole vocal chain and set up that works for me, that that really is a key to getting what's good about my voice. But I had some rude awakenings when I first tried to record. I was like, if people mighted

me wrong, it was just like, oh God. It's like if you don't... Your tone is so unique. That's like, that's such a selling point that if you don't capture that right. If you, because it's like sounds the spectrum and if, and because, there's a lot of mics that are, are kind of focused on the wrong part of the spectrum for my voice. It's why most, most pop singers are probably, Mazzo Sopranos, I'm an alto.

You know, I think, you know, it's just not, you know, so I had to really experiment, but my first experiences, um,

well, you know, okay, it was funny because, um, um, I'm trying, this wasn't my first experience in the studio. But like, I had done some demos and things like that, and that didn't turn out very well.

And then I remember for Elf, they knew I was a singer, which is part of why they cast me. And then I went into record with Leon Redbone, and everything sounded perfect. Like, they got how to record me. And I was like, oh, wow. And then because it's their, Leon was like a, you know, jazz, like old world singers. So it was like they got how to record a voice like mine. But yeah, I mean, I think... That's interesting.

Your first time's going to the studio where just you don't realize how significant your chain is until you listen back and you do... Until you find it right and you realize all that time. What is your... What is the ideal mic chain for you? I have it all written down. But so I actually... So it depends on are we recording on tape or are we recording on... Let's start with...

Because we normally record on tape. Yeah, good. So... And that's a whole other thing. Because on tape, there's warmth already. So you don't need... And that was part of the thing was like Matt always records on tape. So she and him right out the gate, we were like, okay, we didn't...

We kind of, you know, like, the first record... I don't even remember what we were recording on, but it was like sound, you know, it's like sounding pretty good. But we started dialing it in after that, like really trying. We do, you know, mic shootouts always. It's actually incredible. I love doing mic shootouts. But so I went down this rabbit hole. We were making this record called classics. And it was all classic songs. And I was like, we were recording on tape. So it was okay. to use a mic with a little bit of a like higher end because tape has the warmth. So and then, but then I wanted a, I wanted an insurance mic. So I always have an insurance mic now. So in case, so, um, that record, I, I used Karen Carpenter, Karen Carpenter's vocal chain. And, um, I have to, I'm going to get, I'll get back to you on the, um, maybe we can look up the mic pre and the compressor. I can't

remember now offhand, but it's a U-87. in Omni, and then my backup mic is an RCA 77. Cool. Because it sounds actually not great by itself, but we mix in just a little bit sometimes if the warmth isn't fully there, it's like all warmth, and it's very dark. So I wouldn't ever want to use just that mic, but that is great. And then, so if I'm recording on digital, I use, well, I actually now use that. this mic almost exclusively, but depends on what we're doing.

I recorded with Brian Wilson, and we used an E-LM-351 at Ocean Way. And then after that session, he gifted me that mic from Oceanway. What? And so now I basically bring it to every session. Even if you don't use it, just bring it everywhere just as a good luck charm. Yeah, and it was funny because I was in this movie, Troll. and they were like, well, we're recording everybody on the same mic, and I was like, I'm sorry, you're not recording me. It was everybody was on a U-67, and I was like, that is a bad mic for me.

So I have to bring my mic. And then everybody's like, ooh, Zoe. I'm like, I'm not like trying to flex. It's just that I need specific, like, like they always say like Stevie Nix needed a particular mic because she has a unique voice. And you can't just record me with like any old mic. It won't work. I will sound literally bad. So that's why it's super important, like all that stuff.

And having knowledge of like what sounds good. But also, you know how good engineers always go, I don't know, it just sounds good. I just pointed the mic at you and sounded good. I'm like, no, you're a good engineer. Because if you make it sound good, you're good. You're doing a good job. And that could be doing nothing. You know, like, that's just like any other art form that it might be like, the answer might be doing less.

Yes. And not by adding more stuff to the chain. I mean, you know, that's a different kind of engineer to know that. But we never process anything or use any kind of pitch correct anything ever. So like that kind of processing, like I know nothing about. We like are, we live completely in the past as far as recording goes. Yeah. And even compositionally, well, you know, that.

There's a clear timelessness to it. Like you're not trying to play that game. No, I don't even know what the game is. Well, it's, you know, for somebody who was on network television as much as you were and were doing studio films all the time, to be so able to work outside of the box in the music space, weren't people pressuring you? hey, you should try to get in the single game.

Well, I think that was like my first few experiences. Like I said, I made some demos. I did make some demos like with some songs I'd done with like some like random producers and like all talented people. But like it just didn't work until I met Matt. You know, like it nobody got how to like how to make it all work. You know, it's like because I also didn't fit into. the pop mold. And I think songs to me like must have meaning. And I, I don't, I don't, like, sometimes, I think, like, especially when I was first starting out, the way pop was a lot of it, you know,

there wasn't always, like, as much personal meaning in the songs that were out there, not that there weren't, aren't, like, examples of that. But, like, my songs. as didn't fit in the pop mold. So if I tried to, like, write with somebody or like whatever, trying to, like, fit, I just don't fit into, I don't fit into mainstream. And, and, yes, I did do a lot of, like, network TV and studio movies. But what's funny is I still never felt like I fit into those molds either. Like, I felt like it was a miracle that I was even on any, like, network TV or in big studio movies because I started out doing indie films. And, you know, I always saw music as my thing that could be pure self-expression,

and I never needed to sell out. I never needed to, like, we never even, like, we've never even, like, played, you know, mixes of songs for labels to have them weigh in on anything. We always just would turn in a record fully finished. That's the best way to do it. Well, and, you know, to be fair, what makes those, the network, television, and the studio films work is the, what's so exciting about the things that you ended up in is that they were not existing IP, that they became, they became big. Right. You didn't go in, it wasn't, and this is no offense to Marvel movies, but you didn't join the, you weren't, you know, it wasn't that, you know.

It wasn't that, you know. I don't know if I fit in any of those. mold like I need to break molds I can't iron woman you're like why why am I here I didn't I I don't know to be iron woman um you work with Brian Wilson you kind of just like like he gives you a microphone and I I saw the interview that you did with him you gave him at the Hollywood ball which is amazing um three uh three um how many I was like how many three three voices sounds like angels choirs that's like my favorite. very quote from that noted.

I mean, it's like, you know, there's, we were talking about Paul McCartney yesterday. Like there's, there aren't, you know, there's Brian Wilson's on, you know, Mount Rushmore. Yeah. You know, what's it like working with Brian Wilson? Like the most creative guy you'll ever meet and like so zeroed in, you know, on everything. It's fascinating how unique of a person he, like, was. And what a joy it was to be around that. You know, it's funny because when we were doing that song with him,

I had, like, for years, I don't want to say, like, stock. Stock's the wrong word. But I would, like, go to every Brian Wilson. Like, if I was in a place where Brian Wilson, was playing, I would go to every show, right? Like, I was very into it, right? And somehow, you know, I became friends with, like, people in his, like, in his band and on his team and stuff like that and ended up meeting him and, like, and his wife and his kids

and stuff, like, in London when I went to see him play. And so I felt like I had, like, really just pursued being around the world of Brian Wilson, just because I just, I worship him and love him so much. But working with him was really interesting because we, like, I think we, we went in and did this song, and his co-writer was like, you know, we were like, we were talking about like tape versus, like, recording on Pro Tools, and they were like, And he was like, oh, Brian loves pro tools, which is like, you always think of people like, you know, this like highbrow thing of like loving tape. And I were like, oh, and because it's fast.

Yeah. And it's easy. And he's like, oh, he just wants as many tracks as possible as fast as possible. And, you know, and it was funny because I sang the song and I go, can I stack some vocals? Which was like a really bold thing to say to Brian Wilson. But he let me do it. And but if ever anything wasn't to his like. he would just stop it immediately in the middle instead of like you go stop it you're out of time or whatever

and and i'd be like oh okay you know it would be like and everyone who recorded on that like who did duets with him he would just be like stop like it would just be like okay you know he was very exacting about how everything should should be but it was it was an amazing experience and and um and i just like he'd be like, he'd be like, I want hamburgers, you know, like, just, he was like the most lovable, amazing person. I just loved being around him. There's probably a diagnosis for that in this, in this era. Don't we love people that aren't just normal, like your everyday person that you, you know, it's like I just love, like, I just, I loved being around him. It was such an incredible blessing. Recording the tape is you have to be well rehearsed.

And again, in this era, what's different in songwriting is that people write the day they record. Yes. You know, because if you're going to be in a studio, they have the, you know, the tape is there. And that obviously existed before, but it's traditionally, that would be really expensive. I've never rid in a studio. Yeah. So you write at home and you have to practice it. And you have to listen back.

Yeah. And you have to make mistakes and then go back. Yeah. And then you have to practice it. And then you learn, you live in the song. Yeah. Like you almost tour it, even if it's for nobody. Yeah.

You know? And then when you get to the studio, you're well rehearsed. Yeah. Absolutely. So it's like, it's a, I don't know. There's something about the idea of like, of choosing to do that path is a patient path even to begin with in this area. Well, the cool thing about that, too, is that like, we have like songs like even like we'll end up with, there will be songs that like I'll send to Matt and they you know if I'm writing a whole lot I'll send to Matt like a demo and sometimes my demos are more involved in some of sometimes I'll just be like I don't feel like making a big thing of this and a lot of times I like to stack a lot of vocals or like you know do a so like the whole reason there was that and I thought I saw your face today the whole reason why there's a whistle solo is because I wanted a solo on my demo and I couldn't play an instrument well enough to solo so I whistled it and then.

And I was like, are you going to play a guitar? And he's like, no, I like the whistle. We're going to do a whistle. You know, so what I like is that Matt sits with the songs for a long time. And sometimes we'll do it kind of similar tempo and feel to how I make the demos. But like, there was a song on like volume three that was like, I wrote as like a super slow ballad on piano. And I walked in and I walked in the studio the day. going to record it and Matt's just playing it really fast on guitar, like with this cool strumming pattern and he's like, I think we should do it, you know, this way. And it was like, oh, what a great idea. It made the song so much better. Which song was that? So it's the one that's like, I can't help it. I can't win. Um, uh, now. I know which song is. I don't remember my own song. I also don't

ever remember how to play them. Like when we, I go back on tour, I'll be like, uh, I don't remember how. It's like I literally shut everything out of my brain until I'm touring again. And I'm like, oh my God, I have to relearn all these songs. I wrote 20 years ago. Somebody who, are you good? Can you recall dialogue from anything you ever did? Or it's got to fall in the same category. It's, it's melody. I remember forever. Music hooks. Music. Everything is. But the actual... Never wanted your love, by the way. That's it.

That's it. And I can hear the original demo, which was like really slow. So, yeah. So my song, never wanted your love, which I would never forget the name of. No, lyrics don't always... Like, I don't always remember words as well. Like, music I remember much better than words. That's funny for it.

For somebody who acts to do that. I know. Well, I memorize dialogue really fast, but then it'll go out of my head, like, as soon as I've, like, I'm done with the day. But lyric writing is much harder for me than melody. Melody's so, like, oh, easy. Like, I love it. And then the thing that makes me, like, bang my head against the wall or lyrics, because I just feel like it is really walking this tightrope of, like, not saying too much, not saying too little, hitting, like, the thing that makes people go, oh, yes, I know that feeling,

or I feel that too, or I know that person or whatever. Like, that is the hardest thing to do. This is a bad question to ask somebody who struggles with the remembering lyrics. But considering how hard it is, what's a lyric you wrote that took a long time that you now are so proud of? Oh, that took a long time. You know what's... It can be short.

Okay. I'm going to just tell you that there's a song called Thieves that was like the first song. This is the opposite answer, but one that I wrote that song like really fast, like almost to the point like where I was like, did I channel this? Like I walked into a room, which was like my, in my parents' house. I don't know why I was at my parents' house, but I was. And I just had a guitar. Maybe it was my dad's guitar. And I wrote that song in like 30 minutes.

And the whole thing start to finish all the lyrics, everything. And I walked out and I was like, oh, that was like a ghost tell me right now. I don't know what that was. But I really like when I listen to that song, I'm like, I am super proud of this. So I think that's like my favorite song I've written. But, you know, then there are other ones. like actually volume three is full of songs where I'm like I'm super proud of that song like but um like don't look back it was a song that I I it felt crafted like I was like I was working on

it for like a long time where I was like um I have this like idea and you know and I would like work on bits and pieces and it was kind of it didn't feel like that. cobbled together, but to get it to the point where it was, you know, that song took longer, you know, but it really, every song is its own baby and has its own, you know, process of being born. So let's go back. So now you've, you've done some demos. I know we're going all over the point, but you've done some demos that are, you know, not right. Meh. Yeah. Yeah.

And you're starting to act in some Indies and whatnot. Did you question your career path at this point? Really? So I was actually traveling to, so I would go for a long period of time away. And back then, do you remember the M-box that you have to record a demo or like do any multi-track recording? You needed this M-box thing. and I would bring a whole suitcase full of folding musical instruments,

like a tiny, like a keyboard that folded and a guitar that folded and an inbox. I would have an entire suitcase full of instruments and would be writing songs on my off time. And I, I will say it was actually really, what's funny about doing movies as a female, is that you tend to, when you're like 22, they're like, and here's your love interest and they're like 40 or whatever. And they're all really nice people, but a lot of times I'm like, well, they're not like hanging out in the same places as I am.

They're like usually like have a family and like kids and like, you know, it's a whole other thing. And to like everyone you're working with, a lot of times I'd be on a film for like a long time. It might be like four months somewhere and I'd be so lonely because there would be like, Nobody my age. Like all my friends were in band. Like I had like so many musician friends and so many like very creative friends at home and stuff. And most of, you know, the people I'd be working with, I just, it wasn't like I couldn't hang out with them or they weren't lovely. But I just didn't feel like I was in the same stage of life as them. And I just like, and a lot of times would be the only girl, you know, and just feeling really isolated. So like a lot like, especially like my first two records were. like written in very lonely situations where I was like by myself like in an apartment somewhere and like just like writing song after song and just like amusing myself by making these songs and like not knowing where they were going or what I was doing with them but just like having being like this is what I do with my spare time was this while you're shooting

you know, this is, you know, what era are we in? Yeah. When you look back at this time, when are we? This is like 2003, four, five, like, around there. And I had a lot of musician friends and what was nice was they were all super supportive of me as a songwriter. Most of them. Like, I would send demos and they'd be like, this is awesome. Like, you know, it was really nice because at least I had like friends.

that were, you know, very cool. That believed in me. Yeah. But, you know, before that era, working on Almost Famous, you know, it's like, which is now also been a musical that's gone to Broadway and done it had its whole life and whatnot. You know, to work on a movie there that's so music-based. Yeah. And of the era that you grew up listening to music, did it connect you to any of those musicians differently? by being in that era.

So Cameron, like, I don't know, have you read his book? It's incredible. I haven't read the book, but I'm super familiar. Yeah, listen to his book because it's so worth just like, if you're on a road trip or whatever,

and it's so fun to hear him read it because there's so much to be taken away from that. Like, that's just wonderful. But Cameron was such a positive, influence. I don't think he even knew back then that I played music or sang or anything, but he would make, he would make mix CDs for everything. Like you, it was like, I signed on that movie. I got cast in that movie. And the first thing was I got like a double disc set of like, like, and then it was very important. There's actually a really funny thing that happened,

which was that I got cast in that movie and I quit, I kind of quit college to, because I got cast in this movie on a whim, partially because I thought it was too hard to store my stuff in Skokie, Illinois at the public storage because I'm, like, not, like, great at adulting. And so I just shipped all my stuff home with these, like, travelers' checks. And anyway, my friend from college made me a mixtape. And the first song in the mixtape was America by Simon and Gurfuncle. not knowing anything about what I was doing. And then, like, on Cameron's mixtape was America by Simon and Garfunkel.

And that is the song that they play as my character is leaving home. And it's, like, the most significant song, like, to that character. And I always saw songs, like, you know, I always saw songs as a, part of a soundtrack to my life, you know? And, and I really think, like, getting to know Cameron and the way that he thinks. And his love and appreciation for music is, like, unparalleled. Like, I don't know anyone who appreciates music, like, so very, very much, like, who isn't a musician, you know? I mean, he has just such a knowledge and appreciation. And, and so, yeah, being around him was very positive influence on me.

Yeah, for sure. First of all, how is it being in a movie where you have the skill set to write and you're around, you know, legends and not tell them? Like, that's the least L.A. thing you could do. I am so not L.A. Aren't you supposed to be like the, hey, check out this demo?

I'm like the, I'm like allergic to selling myself. Like, it's my blessing and my curse. Like I would, I, I, I have to maybe, my dad's from a Quaker family and Quakers are all about like never bragging and never showing off. And so when like I'm, I'm allergic to showing off, I guess, but it's weird to be like a performer and be like, I'm allergic to showing off. So it's like there's, and you know what I like about Matt to Mward is that he also kind of has this element, but it's really fun because you'll, you know, you'll have this thing where I love Matt when I first met him would want to play in the dark. Like we would play shows and he'd be like, turn off the lights. Like there would be like no spotlight on the stage.

He's like, Zoe can be in the spotlight, but I don't want to be. I just want to play in the dark. And he's a shredder. Like he's an amazing performer. He's a legend. And then finally after a while when we were touring, like he finally started to just step up and start shredding like like, like, you know, leg up on the. the, you know, like the monitor and everything. And I was like, yes.

He's like, it's like, because the showing off is coming from a genuine place and then it's allowed. It's really funny. But yeah, I'm not, I'm not really a, unless it comes up. But that's why people I know well don't even know that I write music. How do people not know that now? I don't know, but. You know, you should have a name tag. I'm like, this is what I do.

This is how I identify. Well, also, what's funny, I remember during the first record, I was kind of frustrated, like, when we first started touring, because we would be doing interviews, like, with magazines and stuff. And no matter what I did, no one would think I wrote any of it. They'd just think I was the singer. And then Matt would be like, no, Zoe writes all these songs. And they'd be like, oh, so you write the lyrics. And he'd be like, no, no, no, Zoe writes the songs. And they'd look at me like, uh, like, it still wasn't registered. even though we told them. And I remember telling my friend Becky Stark, who's a great singer-songwriter, like Lavender Diamond. I don't know if you know them, but she's like super talented. And she was

opening up for us. And she was like, oh, man, it's because I was an actor first. That's why. And she's like, no, it's because you're a female. Like, she's like, nobody believes I write music either. And I was like, that's really interesting because obviously I know there's lots of, you know, female songwriters that are, you know, everybody acknowledges, you know. But I do think there is like an uphill battle to being a singer and being out front and people being like, well, they don't read. Even a lot of pop stars, like, we'll be talking. I'll be like, oh, I like this person or whatever. And people be like, well, they don't write their own music. And I'm like, no, I think they do. Like, they really do. And I have to kind of go to bat for people a lot in that way,

just knowing how, you know, much it means to people to be, like, at least acknowledged for the contribution. It's particularly misogynistic, and it's not, you know, like you said, you know, Ariana is a great writer and edits her vocals and does, you know, like, go down the list, and Sabrina is like an incredible writer, great lyricist, great, right? A lot of these people are, and the strange things. thing is that we were talking about Mutt Lang. Shania Twain is one of the greatest country writers in history, full stop.

Yeah. It was not, like, she's a great songwriter. And the assumption is that she was, that Mutt Lang did all of the writing because it's just this misogyny. And the strange thing is nobody discredits Whitney for not writing. They don't discredit Bonnie Ray for not writing. You know, I can't make you love me. They don't discredit these people for not writing.

Yeah, yeah. It's okay. It's okay. That they didn't. And for some reason, there's this assumption, though, that female singers don't write. And how many male pop stars do we know don't write? Yeah. Doesn't mean they don't get credit.

Right. But it's a different conversation. I was amazed that there would be, like, songs written by, like, eight people. Because I was like, like, it's just never been my process. No, but that's it. That's it. But I go to bat. I go to bat for the eight,

for somebody who writes a lot of 100% songs and 50-50s and I'm proud of that. There are songs that I have that have other writers that have five songs, writers on it, even if I have 45% of the publishing. Yeah. Because the contribution may be something that we now give credit for often in the pop game, even if it's, and some of its strategy, some of it's like, You know, I'll trade you for this element or that element. But I do think that there are sessions.

I had a session the other day. There were still five people in a room. So you're starting at 20%. But it was a really fun day. But you know that the best case scenario with this song is that it comes out and I get 20%. Right. It's a business thing, but it's not you have a good day. But you're not trying to be the also, you know, nobody in that room is the artist.

Yeah, I'm not knocking it at all. I just am like, wow. Like I, I, it, again, like a lot of the way things are done are like, oh my God. When I discover like how things are like done often or usually or many times in, in kind of like the mainstream world, I'm like, wow, like it's so cool to me. I just have never done it that way. So I don't, you know, I'm like, I'm just kind of like, I'm just kind of like. fascinated by the kind of game of writing music. Would you write for other people? I would love to. I would love to. That's an achievable goal. I would love it would be so fun. I happen to know somebody who has a studio.

Oh, my God, yes. So you know what's funny is it was always my goal to have, like, like with she and him, I love writing songs for she and him, but like I wasn't always like writing for my own voice. Like, so thieves, I wrote, like, I was like, this is like a Roy Orbison song. I was like, I want to write like a Roy Orbison song. Yeah. And the way it goes, it crescendos. Like the entire song is crescendoing, like to the end.

And where it's like there's a big note. And I'm like, if Roy Orbison were alive, I would want him to cover this. And then, you know, there's a song called Change's Heart on the first record. And I was like, this I want, I love Linda Ronstadt's voice. I'm like, this is like a Linda Ronstat song. And, like, so many songs I've written... I was made for you, which is, like, very kind of, like, simple. But I was, like, listening to a lot of, like, Ronettes and stuff like that.

And I'm like, okay, this is, like, a Ronette song or Chafan song. And I'm like, I always was writing for other artists. They just, like, weren't, you know, around to record the songs or aren't recording anymore. But I kind of, like... I would admit that a lot of the songs, I'm like, these aren't all optimized for my voice. I just sing them. And I'm like, they're authentic and I'm proud of them. But I'm not like, oh, this is the song I crushed the most.

I'd be like, if you want to know a song I crushed the most, it's probably not one of my own songs. Like the one where you're like, sing the song that's going to just like bring the house down where you're like, felt the hell out of it. It's none of my songs. It's going to be something else. Is that because you don't look at your own work in that way? I look at it for pure songwriting. Like, I love this melody. I love these hooks.

What's the song that brings the house down? Well, we do. Like, I put a spell on you. And like that's always like a lot of times. An unchained melody. You've got like a ton of these. Yeah, like these ones that are like big kind of like showstoppers. My own songs.

Yeah, there's some that are more than others where I like wail on it. But, you know, there are a lot that are very like, intimate and like but it's more just about like loving the melody and like and I'm like there's some other people that would like crush this more than I would and that's why I would love you know to write more with like other people or for other people when you do cover baby it's cold outside and elf you know it's every Christmas do you end up seeing yourself yes do you watch do you watch Do your kids watch, watch, watch, Elf every? They saw it once or twice, and they liked it, yeah.

But my, it's really funny, my daughter, like, loves seeing things that I've done and listening to stuff. And my son gets weird about it. Like, it's like, that's mommy, you know? Yeah. Does that, is that what inspired the run of Christmas songs later was because of that involvement? Or is it just because those are the best songs ever written? I just freaking love Christmas music. It's so good.

So in my, when I was a kid, I got the Phil Specter Christmas record, which I was obsessed with Beyond. Like, I can't, I would listen to it all year round. Like, I got that and I got the Beach Boys Christmas record in my stocking. And I was like, I'm obsessed. Like, I loved how they, like, arranged all these songs. And I was just like, the Phil Spector one, I just, and, like, and I love all the originals, too, on the beach boys. and those like vocal arrangements are like beyond. And so I just love Christmas music.

And then Matt loves Christmas music too. And we recorded that in six days, that first one. We got in the pier to reader, our engineer, and Matt and I just got in the studio and just like put up some Christmas lights and just like straight to like. Christmas lights in July. And some of it would be just like Matt would be like, do you know this one and you start playing one and be like,

sort of, and then we just record it. It's so fun. I mean, what a cool place to be, to be able to do, you know, I think I've had a few Christmas songs. I know I've had a few Christmas songs that have come out.

I was saying that, like, you know, they were not, they're not ones that get played every year. But just that world is really interesting because you hear these albums come out and for a consumer when they hear the Christmas album come out, it was recorded December 10th and it came out.

You know, it was recorded. But you're recording this album in April. Yeah. You know, for it to come out then. So to put Christmas lights on to live in this world. Yeah. Also, as a Jewish kid, like, no, there's nothing better than writing Christmas songs. Like, all I want to do is write Christmas songs.

The best Christmas songs have been written by Jewish songwriters. I mean, white Christmas. Like most recorded song like ever, I think. Yeah, there's an incredible list of them. And yes, they were, we love Christmas. I think it's, you know, all of our songs are in minor keys. And it's just like, it's, you know, Hanukkah songs are just, they don't do the same thing.

When you work on 500 days of summer also, like that's like such a, the music in that is so identifiable. Yeah. When you're looking at working as an actor, how much does music have to do with the roles you choose? I like often make playlists like for characters. Like it's important for like, you know, getting into the, spirit of, you know, the film. But I would say they're fairly separate, but, you know, music plays such a huge role in my life that they're, like, it's impossible for it not to be. Also, it's fun because, again, like, we talk about our kids, like, having influence, but it's like, my son loves film scores.

And that's been fun to kind of, like, he would just, like, want to listen. He'd love a movie and then just like, oh, you have to listen to the score like for days. And so that's, you know, fun to kind of, you know, get into those things. He loves like Godzilla and the Godzilla scores, which are really great. They're so good. Yeah. Even the like weird off-brand Godzilla movies like from the 60s and these really cool scores. So yeah.

So it's it's fun. I mean, it's important, like, in every aspect of my life. But did you ever feel like the roles that people identify you with as an actor affected, you know, the way you created? Did it ever affect, did that affect, did you feel like you had to, I don't know, that's, I guess that's a full flesh. No, but I think, I think what I could answer it there is like, I think, I think, there's something very about being an actor is that when you play characters is the good and the bad is that it's it you know people see a very small slice of that character and and it can it can feel very limiting to you and you know that like they've seen this much you know and then you have so much more and and that frustration can be very um inspiring i i think like as a songwriter like i don't know how you feel but like um that I'm just probably, I'm mostly motivated by like, like things that I can't figure out or frustrating things or things like that. Like I find really motivating as a songwriter versus like something that's just good and happy is harder to write about for me than like something that can't figure out or that's like, oh, that's driving me crazy.

You know, it's a little bit more like, ooh, there's something there. I think it's interesting when you were talking about, you know, writing for Royal Orbison or, you know, writing for the Ronnettes and that being inspiring because the job of a songwriter that I like most is that I can today be female, different race. Yeah. Different, you know, whatever I want, I can be, I can be this thing. Yeah. Whereas my friends that are actors, I'm like, man, you're going to audition and look for these roles. Right. And then you're, but you're not creating the roles.

Right. And you then have to just be this person versus like I get to choose the part I play every day. It's like improvising or writing your own material material, you know. I was, I think it is a form of playing a role, writing, a song. And actually, I think of this a lot that, like, if I'm having a hard time with, with lyrically with a song, that when you can't quite crack that, like, lyrical code that you go, you think about flipping it on its head, like, well, what if I'm a different character in this? Yeah.

I think that's, and that, that was actually that song I was talking about, Changes Hard, that I was having a really hard time. writing about this particular thing I wanted to write about, which is this person who's very upset that they made a mistake. But I was not writing it in first person. It was about, you know, it was like in third person or in second person. And I'm writing and it's like not making any sense. And then, or it's making sense, but it's not good. It's bad. And then I started thinking, oh, what if I am her? What if I am her and I made this mistake and I'm talking to this person and I'm trying to explain to them. I made this mistake. And it's like a, it's like a quote. You know, and I go, okay, now I get it. It's like sometimes it's that little,

little character shift that really cracks the code for you. Yeah, great tool for writers who don't know what to do to write today. Whatever that is. I'll tell my own writers, I'll be like, hey, go through, you know, go through Spotify, go through your favorite songs. Yeah. You know, and then take the opposite perspective. Exactly. You know, it's like, I know you like, you know, the Brill Building writers in and, you know, the first Neil Sadaka song. I'm obsessed with Neil Sadaka.

I love him. Is Hey Carol. Yes. And then Carol King came out with Hey Neil. And that's before Carol did like the artist thing. But it was her first singles, Hey Neil. and that idea of, or Smokey doing my girl and my guy. Yeah.

Like he wrote both those. And it's like, that's not by accident. That's like, I don't know what to write today. I'm going to take my hit and I'm going to just flip it. Flip it. Yeah. No, and one of the things I do, if I'm writing and I'm having a really hard time and I'm like, I'm not thinking of anything.

I have a million real books, like, you know, the like jazz fake books, basically. I just take those out and I'll open page one. I'll play through every song I know. And then until I'm like kidding, I'm like, until I have like enough like chords and lyrics and things in my head, I'll sing them all. And then I'll have it all in my brain. It'll be like spinning around. And then I'll just like have a little more food for thought in terms of like writing music. I think I think all those exercises really can be valuable when you're having a difficult time.

For somebody who writes who, you know, who writes his mind. as much as you do and who's acted as much as you have, why aren't you spending the time writing scripts instead of songs? It's like, it's not that I wouldn't do that, but it's like, I don't know if it's, I, and I'm not saying I won't ever do that, but songs are like my medium, you know, like that's my medium. Like that gets me excited. Reading scripts is the most difficult part of my,

my job as an actor because it's long form, you know, it's a longer, and I can, I'm, I love like, like, I, I am kind of working on a film to direct, like I'm, I'm all that part and editing all that part, that all I'm like, I love that stuff, but writing screenplays is quite, it's just, the process of it is, is a bit long form for me. And because it doesn't involve mel, I'm like, I would love to write like music. I just envision you reading every script being like singing the stage direction and anything to keep you getting through the 90 pages of. It's hard for me. Like it, well, it's partially because I really like, I'm just a slow reader.

Yeah. So I really kind of, and I thoroughly read, but it's, it takes longer than some people like, oh, like, it takes, you know, two hours to read a script. I'm like, it could take me like five hours because I'll get like into every, like very granular about all of it. I'm dyslexic. So I read like a sixth grader, but I read all the time. I really enjoy the information intake. But it just everything is just like, it's going to take me longer. And so going through some of that stuff is just like distraction or whatever it is.

Yeah, I have ADHD, so I have, you know, not the same, but some similar things that, like, where I'll read a whole page and I'll be like, I have no idea what I just read. I have to go back and read it again, and I could do it again. I could be like, I zoned out while I was reading it. While I was re-reading, I zoned out while rereading. I have to do it. It's why I listen to audiobooks a lot because just listening to it, just easier for me. I listen at 1.8 speed, which makes my wife, whenever it's anxious, what are you doing? This is like a panic attack. If you aren't used to listening to things very fast.

I do that too, actually. I usually do 1.5 because it's a little less darned. I try to go just far enough that I can understand the material. But anything that's like, you know, I've gone too far where it's like nauseating, but I've gotten through very long books out of it. I also have talked to people who listen to this podcast on high speed who are confused by the fact that I constantly sound sort of stoned. So they're like, where's the speed? Because they're used to listening at 1.5. And it's like, that's just not how I actually communicate.

Wait, so, you know, you do classic songs. You like Gershwin. You like the American song. And you act. Why aren't you doing more theater? I would love to do theater. I just, like, the thing about Broadway is this, like, it all has to be, like, scheduled in a certain way. And again, it's like, I think what I do best is, like, getting to curate my own, like, maybe if I wrote a show, like, if I wrote music for a show, I would want to do that or if it was just, like, perfect for me.

But, and I would. I almost, I almost did, um, coal miner's daughter on Broadway. We were working on that. That would have been cool. Got to meet Loretta Lynn and she was incredible. But yeah, I mean, eight shows a week is a lot, too. And if I'm touring, I can pick how many shows a week I do. I can pick our schedule. Like, I can pick our set.

If I'm having, like, a vocal day where I'm a little scratchy or something, I could, like, cut songs from the set or, like, lower the keys. Like, you know. But you know what's cool about about shows? Tell me. Because I know you're a theater guy. They tour to you. True.

So like some of that, yeah. Some of the losing the voice is the fact that after that show, you are now going to either hop on a bus or a plane. Yeah. And you're going to head to the next place where you have a show. Yeah. Versus I'm going to go home and go to sleep in my bed.

Yeah. And I'm going to wake up. I'm not going to talk to anybody. But it's, you know, Sunday's the Tonys Yeah My brother-in-law is nominated Oh great for which

The Lost Boys Oh yeah, that's right You did it with the rescues Yeah really fun show Gabriel Man It's so cool It's such a great show Yeah Josh Henry's the lead in The Wrong Man

He's from ragtime He'll probably Hopefully he'll win And also Nicholas Christopher Shout out to him He's in He was in our last reading of Inside Voices, which is one of the ones that we're doing. So I'm kind of rooting for

a couple of these guys. And Brian, you're used for like, whatever. There's a bunch of those guys. But that, that world is like, is really interesting to me because those guys, they, you know, it is a different thought. You have to go home. You have to be quiet. And you're with your kids. Josh is like, excellent dad. And he's got two, like, young, three young kids. Like, you're going to have to, you know. Well, I always said, you know, for touring. Show up the next night. Yeah, my friends who were giving advice, like, before I ever started touring, were like, don't talk after the show.

And I don't smoke, I don't drink. Like, I mean, I might have a glass of wine here and there, but I'm very, I don't, like, I'm clean living. So I just go back to the bus and just, or hotel, and I just go right to sleep after the show. And then, yeah, like, and I don't eat late. Like, I'm really careful. But you were like, you know, you're famous. You know, like you were in through your entire 20s.

Our 20s in L.A. Is entourage. The TV show was out and it was like that is what, that is around a lot of the movies that you're in, a lot of the people you're surrounded by, you know, hashtag me too's all over the place, drugs and alcohol Like, you know But not me Hollywood, a ton of stuff

Yeah How did you avoid it all? I was like never into that stuff Like I just You know what's funny? Do you remember there was like that nightclub called Teddy's Where they had like a very fun night Where they were like

It was like old school music that I liked I would go there Drink water and dance for two hours And then drive home Like I love to dance I'm like I love listening to music I love to go to shows But I would like, I'd be like, well, I'm driving, so I'm not going to drink.

Like, here also, I do, I do feel like kind of great when there was like no Ubers and you're like, well, I'm not drinking. I have to drive. So I would like, I just really, I never like felt like I needed anything. Like, and I was, I never liked like, I, yeah, I don't know. I feel like you were probably at the Dresden a lot. I did. I have, I have been there. So back when I had the cabaret act, we were all along was that hill.

Hillhurst? Yeah, yeah. We played every... Where the derby was and all that. We played, yeah, we played there. We played every place you could play on Hillhurst. It was like... And we had a residency at the sunset tower, like, back in the day.

When was that? It was like probably 2003. Did you try to have a record deal as a solo artist before... No. She and... Who? No. Like I said, I made demos with a few different people, and they know.

never like worked out. But did you try to have it even with those demos? I didn't try. I never was like, yeah, let me. I remember like my acting manager when I was, knew somebody who knew somebody and was like, I went in with like a producer, you know, and they're like, let's do a thing. And I was like, nothing sounded like how I wanted it. It was, you know, they were talented. And then I, um, I did. A misbehaving. It's like totally like, wait, I don't know if this is the remix. I'm aiming for right now. Yeah, I was like, I don't think so. Yeah. And then, and then I did, like, I did do a couple songs, like, with a big producer.

I won't say what it was because I don't want to like, but it didn't sound good. It wasn't right. It wasn't, they're super talented, but it wasn't a good fit for me. Well, it's interesting. You know, Matt is like kind of a, he's a legend. He's a legend. And he was like, I don't think I've ever met him. But, you know, he's, M. Ward is like.

a real artist, like solo artist, producer, you know, that's like, that is a big deal. I'm so lucky. He's like been my mentor and my like champion and like my friend and bandmate for over. I mean, we met 20 years ago and we started recording the first record at the end of 2006. So 20 years. And we've never had a fight. Never. ever had a fight. I mean, that's good business, too. It's like it means that everyone's on the up and up and, you know, you guys don't, you know, it doesn't seem like you guys like need anything from each other outside of being good collaborators, which is helpful. We like making music together. And I like value and trust his opinion. And if he thinks something, I'm always like, oh, yeah, let's hear that. And same goes on the other side. I'd be like, I really think this. And he'd be, like, even the other day we were recording. And I was like, Matt, what do you?

you think it was a song I wrote and I was like what do you think if the guitar solo went a little bit like this and he goes oh great idea I'm like the like he's so open you know what I mean like this is kind of controversial in some ways but I do think that one of the things that makes this a valuable relationship is that he's not trying to take your publishing yeah and that you guys have your roles are well defined yeah and it's not like that is yeah most bands, like the issues come from people saying, well, yeah, but I want this or I want this. And it's like, unless it's structured in a way where everyone is like, nope, this is what you do, this is what I do. Yeah. And like that's why this functions as well as it does for so long. Well, well, he, he's just, he doesn't have a big ego. Like, he's, he's a total genius. But he has, like, he's not an ego driven person.

He's like an art driven person. and he has such a successful solo career as a singer and songwriter and, like, and producer that he doesn't, like, need to try to, you know, like, take credit from me for anything I do. Like, he's just incredibly supportive. Like, he's, like, one of the good ones when you're like, oh, that's a good, that's a good person, you know. At what point did you realize you are a successful musician? Oh, gosh. I think like when the second record came out probably, I was like, oh. And we were touring a lot and we toured for like 10 months that year.

And I was like, I'm tired of touring. And this feels like where that thing where you're like on the bus and I was like, I'm so tired. I don't want to go on stage like this random festival. And then I was like, but I got to get on stage because it's somebody's Saturday night. And then I was like, oh, this is what being a successful. musician is, is like touring and being like, you know, hello Cleveland when it's not your, like, when you just want to be, you know, watching, you know, a rom-com on the bus.

Totally. I mean, this is, we talk about this with, you know, with any sort of like nightly host. Yeah. Or news anchor. Yeah. You know, the fact that you have to leave that at the door, whatever it is, whatever that is. Yeah. You know, every day you have to show to the Today Show and be like,

Hi. Hi. Meanwhile, like at home, it's like, it can't be like that every day. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, volume two is kind of nuts because it charts really high. Yeah. You know, you're charting, you know, these are top 10 records and stuff.

Are you starting? Do you feel the pressure? The only thing that kept us out of the top five was that Justin Bieber put out like two, like a best of record or something. at the same, like two records in the same week. And we almost hit number five, but he was like number two and number five or something. So we were like number six. I remember this.

But, but make sure you fact check. So I didn't feel any pressure. I never felt pressure from music, which is what I love about it and love that I had other things I could do that made me, that allowed me to just do what, like what we wanted to do, that wasn't affected by, like, trying to play anyone's game. And that we really came in out of left field, like, completely... We weren't developed as artists. Like, we were just this, like, organic thing that grew out of liking to play music together.

And, you know, Matt liking to produce the songs I wrote. Like, and, you know, us liking to, you know. When does the next album come out? So we're working on it right now. Yeah. So we've recorded a bunch of songs. And we have a little more to do. You know, we like to sit with our, like, we'll go in and do.

We did like a week of work. And then, and then we did another day the other day because Matt was in town. But yeah, like I'm going to be writing a lot this summer and writing more stuff. But we like to sit with stuff and figure out like what every little baby song needs, you know? Yeah. Some songs need a lot and some songs need very little. The one thing you can't rush is perspective. No.

And listening. And I love like just sitting and listening to those mixes, the rough mixes and being like, oh, you know what? Who gets to listen to the rough mixes besides you and Matt? Just us. You never play them for... I mean, not normally. Like, we might... It's like, say we have somebody coming in to play on it, we'll let them hear it.

I let my kids hear a couple of songs. I also, I let them hear it because I had my kid, my son plays drums and my daughter sings. And I let them come and do it. My son did a little percussion, my daughter did a little, like, kind of a call and response part with me. just so that they could have an experience being in the studio, and it was so exciting, you know, for them.

Yeah, I definitely have had both kids, you know, make some noise that have made. I don't think that they, by the time it comes out because they're so young, they're like, I don't remember doing that. But I definitely, you know, also a good sag after moments. Yes. My daughter, when she was a baby, I brought her in and she played jingle, like some jingle bells on one of the Christmas records. And you can hear her, if you listen carefully, going, ah, you know, babies go like, ah, you can hear it on one of the songs.

This is pretty cute. What's the song you wish you wrote? Ooh, I wish I wrote. Um, so, um, that's such a great question. I mean, are there any, any parameters? to that because there are a lot of songs. Okay. Should it be modern?

Should it be old? Like what? Because I could feel like... Okay. What's a show tune you wish you wrote? Oh, a show tune I wish I wrote. Um... Pinball Wizard.

Sir Lee Goaded Lady or Lady. That's what we... We were seeing that before. That'd be so great. If you were like... If I was like... I really like this Oscar... This one is called like Lonely Go-Hurt.

Although, you know what? Actually, one I love from that show was one. that Hammerstein wrote by himself, I have confidence in sunshine. I didn't know. I have confidence in rain. I have confidence that spring will come again.

You know that song? Yeah, that wasn't Rogers. So, before they made the movie, Richard Rogers passed away. Oh. And there are two songs that Oscar Hamer's. Hammerstein wrote by himself, I believe, unless it was the flip, but I'm pretty sure it was Hammerstein. And because Rogers had the whole heart, you know, Rogers and Heart like era.

So, you know, Rogers had been around. I haven't seen it yet, but I'm really excited to see. I've heard amazing things. But, so it was that one. So it's, I have confidence and something good. And they're both beautiful songs, great songs. Yeah. Yeah, it's pretty cool.

I mean, you know, you, you write songs by yourself in an era when everyone is afraid to do this. And I don't know why everyone's afraid to do it, but it's like it's what you're, what you've done is, is, you have the number one song on TikTok from 17 years ago, not because it took eight people and there was an industry plan. You know, it's like, it's not that. It's just because it's authentic to a human. and their story and it's a real story. Thank you. Thank you so much. That makes sense.

My favorite part of this whole thing, by the way, is hearing people cover the song. Because I have heard like heartbreakingly beautiful covers that I consider better than our version, like on TikTok. And I'm so touched. Like people covering my songs is like, that is my greatest dream. So to me, I'm like, I'm in heaven. And, like, people covering, like, new takes. And I'm, like, playing the chords in different ways, too. Like, I play certain inversions of the chords,

partially because my hands are tiny. And so it's, like, really pretty. Limitations. They do that. Well, that is one of my big limitations. I have tiny hands, part of why I play ukulele. Just like the Kristen Wade character. Like, it's like.

They're not that tiny, but, like, as a wing span of three. More than an octave. Like, I can't do more than an octave. And so I never want to get too much because I always worry that I'm not going to hit the, you know, the notes properly if I put too much, like, of a spread on the keyboard there. So that has guided most of my choices. But I like hearing how everybody plays them and, you know, covers on different instruments. And like, it's great. It's so cool.

What's the biggest misconception about you as a musician? That I'm not a musician. Like, or that I'm not a songwriter. That I, people think that I only write lyrics or, you know, that I don't write music or, you know, or that I don't play instruments. Thank you for doing this podcast. Yes. Thank you for having me. This is so fun.

Well, I mean, it's. it's so it's so enjoyable that you are such a music dork. You are such a nerd. I am such a nerd. It's funny because my kids made up their own sign language that they talk about me. And like, yeah, they talk about the parents, me, Jonathan, and their dad with this sign language. And last night they did this thing. And then I was like, what did you guys say?

And they go, we said, mommy is a nerd. I was like, it's true. This is insanely accurate for whatever it's 100%. I shouldn't assume that there's sign language is limited, but that's like, you know, that's, it's not inaccurate. No, I, you know, it's this thing where we are all, I said this earlier, but, you know, it's been, it's hard to, you know, have your own road in this. And in a, obviously there's, there's, there's no set rules and, you know, but not everybody's successful in this business and not everybody gets to do all the things that they want to do. And like you said, you said there was very little precedent before you, but there's a lot, very little precedent after you as well. Right.

And then part of it is because you just are actually a songwriter who actually does the process of recording music in an organization. way. That's why it's successful. And as from the outside, you're like, man, this person's doing movies and TVs that's great in the way that you want to do it and making choices. And you're doing music that's the way you want to do it. And as a composer, songwriter, podcast, whatever, you know, you're just constantly trying to be like, what is, who am I and what are the choices that I'm going to make with the time I have on this planet. And the only way it works well is if you constantly are yourself in that. Snapping back to authenticity and having your North Star, like, always in your vision is so

important. And I think that's, like, one of the things that, like, like, you always have to have a North Star because you can get really pulled off if you're not going. My North Star is making things that are meaningful, telling stories that people connect with, um, and, you know, and doing things that are like pure self-expression, like, those, you know, would be, you know, part of like my, I guess, North Star constellation, that that, that is what's guiding me and not like money or success or like that I'm like, I'm okay. I'm okay as long as I'm doing that, you know, and it's not, and that my aim is never like,

I got to get this many things. I'm always like, if I like it, there will be some other people who like it. So that's all I think about. But isn't there some, you know, and just when I thought I was ending this thing. But like, you know, how do you not have, like, do you, is there any, at this point, is there any part of your decision making that is commercially based? No, like about music, no. Or anything.

I think there have been times where like within that like being an actor maybe there have been more things like because I have I guess because they're like I have done you know because it is such a huge collaborative thing I have been like doing a network TV show you are marketed like you know you are marketed by a big old team you know and that's a real thing that's a that's a life changing thing but um like that's sort of outside my scope. My thing was always like, you know, remember, like, it was like 10 or 15 years ago, everyone started talking about brand. They're like, what's your brand? What's your brand? I'm like, brand is just like who you are. Like, why are we obsessed with making a brand? Like, brand is just who you are.

And like, if you are yourself and you're authentic to your own self and all that, you don't need to worry about it. And then, you know, it's so. I have tremendous respect for, like, you know, marketing. But usually that's just like if they can capture who you are and communicate that, that's the best marketing, you know? Yeah. Well, thanks again for doing this. I'm excited to see when you're back in L.A. playing the Hollywood Bowl. We are playing not the Hollywood Bowl, but we are playing here in October.

Sick. So if you want to come, let me know. I'll be there. Okay. All right. What a pleasure. Thank you, guys.