And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 257: Adam Lambert | Identity, Idol, Queen... and The Game Every Artist Is Playing

Episode Date: July 21, 2026

Today's guest is one of the great voices of his generation — the theater kid who auditioned for American Idol with Michael Jackson, watched the judges' faces fall, and demanded a second song because he'd just quit his job and had no health insurance. But his real story isn't the voice. It's the game — the one Freddie Mercury wrote about, the one that picks your singles, writes your headlines, and decides who you are before you do.And The Writer Is... Adam Lambert!In this episode of And The Writer Is, we go deep on:The AMA kiss that blew up a $500,000 single launch — "everyone was going, oh shit"Quitting Wicked — and losing his health insurance — to audition, then refusing the judges' noWhy Kara DioGuardi 'busted his balls all season'What Brian May says "Play the Game" was really aboutSigned before the finale even aired: why losing Idol never matteredand much more.Hit subscribe and turn on notifications. Every week, we go deep with the most interesting creatives in music.Follow us on socials: @andthewriterisA special thank you to our lead sponsor, NMPA — the National Music Publishers' Association. 0:00 Intro1:09 The album is out — why self-titled, "first name basis"2:35 Meeting Pete Nappi through a pandemic song still in the vault3:39 "Am I Okay" — written one week after the breakup6:02 Singles made him "crazy" — the label picks that flopped: "I told you so"7:04 Leaning into what fans expect vs. challenging them8:16 Proud of the flops, indifferent to some hits9:34 Theater kids: every album is a character, every record a world11:28 The dystopian cover — "I want it blasted into the future"13:55 Adam Lambert or Freddie Mercury? "I feel like it's me"15:35 Coffee with Freddie — what Brian says "Play the Game" was really about16:56 "The music industry is a big old game, isn't it?"17:43 A college-DJ dad, a Sly Stone mom, and a kid screaming through the house19:46 The Fiddler note where everybody went "oh, wow"21:03 San Diego to LA at 19 — math knocked him off the college path23:00 Weed, poetry, and GarageBand25:49 Wicked: six months, burnt out, and a new plan29:20 Inside the Idol machine — two camps, two agendas32:49 The Burning Man epiphany that vanquished the fear34:39 No job, no insurance, and judges who didn't get Rock With You35:11 "I didn't really ask" — the second song that changed everything36:22 Why Idol can't break artists anymore38:04 Honey water: the whiskey story behind Kara DioGuardi's grudge41:21 Justin Timberlake tells him to remake A Night at the Opera42:06 Losing the finale — already signed before it aired47:20 The blog photos drop: "Yeah, that's me. Get over it."51:53 The AMA kiss and the $500,000 single53:22 What Do You Want From Me — the P!nk demo56:00 Singing uncredited on Avicii's "Lay Me Down"59:03 "It takes a village — bring them with you"60:26 Max Martin: "When you get on stage, I don't have to worry"61:26 How Queen actually made the call62:07 Trespassing hits #1 — a first he didn't know he'd made62:48 The poster-child years: "the headline is that I'm gay, and no one's talking about the music"66:11 Trespassing, the "bipolar album" — his half vs. the label's half67:20 Two months with the Wolf Cousins — why his songs didn't make the cut70:05 The Ghost Town gamble — "you've got to do something drastic"72:44 Songs with no home — "throwing my ideas into space"76:03 Velvet dies to Covid, two weeks in76:52 A Telefunken, YouTube tutorials, and teaching himself Logic77:51 The secret musical: 20 songs written over Zoom82:45 Identity vs. brand — "the personality precedes the skill"83:35 Songwriters don't get paid for their time — the union conversation87:37 Giving his co-writers master points — "it's just classy, man"88:28 Where the stage presence actually comes from90:13 The hardest part of fame93:06 "I nitpick the negative" — showing the uglier side for the first time96:28 Is Ozempic killing LA nightlife?Credits:Hosted by Ross GolanProduced by Joe London & Jad SaadEdited by Jad Saad Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to Anne the Ryder is. I am your host, Ross Golland. Today's super vocalist has no one, not two, not three, but not active range. He turned from contestant to iconic front man. But underneath all the glitter theatrics and melisma's is more glitter. And under that glitter is an artist who spent decades navigating fame, identity, and reinvention. All the way from Los Angeles, well, New York, and, you know, Indiana, whatever. This artist embraced the songwriting community and is now a hit writer himself. And the writer is Adam Lambert. I love your Q iPad has the most whimsical font I've ever seen for, you know, a Q iPod. Like that's incredible.

It makes you happy, doesn't it? It gives you the feelings. It does. So does wearing sunglasses. You were wearing sunglasses. I'm like, I'm going to wear sunglasses too. I was like, it's early. It's been a long day.

I keep putting, you know, the eyeliner has to keep going on and off and on and off. And like, sometimes the eyes just need a little bit of a break. Yeah, I have the same issue. Um, okay, so the album came out. The album's out. I mean, you know, this, this isn't live, but this, it came out like a couple hours ago. Yeah. How do you feel?

Good. Relieved. Yeah. Why is this album self-titled? Um, well, I hadn't done it before. So that's kind of like the simple answer. But, you know, it, I don't know, like, I, it just felt like the right way to kind of be like, this is me. First name basis. It feels more personal, more intimate. I don't know. I think it was just like, that summed up the story that we were telling. It's just, this is me right now.

This is where I've been. This is where I'm headed. Did it take time to discover the sound for this album, or were you pretty, did you know what you wanted? I mean, you know, it took a second to take shape, but we kind of had some really strong, clear intentions at the top of it. Like, I worked with Jess, my incredible A&R and sent her a very long reference playlist to which she replied, can you narrow this down for me a little bit? I said, sure, sure. So I deleted a bunch of stuff and kind of boiled it down. And yeah, what we found was a lot of the references were 90s, like sort of alternative electronica kind of stuff. And, you know, the contemporary references were artists that were also doing that style or referring to that. So, yeah, I mean, there's

clear interpellations. You know, there's that. You know, there's that. Yeah. There's that. Like, you really went into that. How did you meet Pete Nappy or the executive producer? It's a funny story. I worked with Pete during the pandemic because him and Samantha Ronson had a band. And randomly, I had known Sam socially for years, and she randomly hit me up and was like, hey, I have this song. I need a singer for it.

Do you want to do it? And I was like, yeah. And at this point, we were still like social distancing and all that stuff. I had purchased a good mic with the beginning of the pandemic. I was like, I need to like start taking this time and like learning how to use logic. Like I want to do something with my time. So I had started to kind of like teach myself how to cut a vocal. And so I cut the vocal for this, the song of theirs and sent it over to them.

And I said, is it okay. Like, I don't know if it's right. And he's like, no, no, I can work with this. And the song's incredible. And it's still on the shelf in the vault. It's still, we never put it out. But that introduced me to Pete. I was so impressed by him.

Why did the song never come out? I don't know. I don't know. I think I think it had something to do with like, their label. Yeah, that's all I had to say is their label. But I think that they disbanded not that long after that. So it just, like, didn't make sense.

What's your favorite song on the album? I don't have a favorite. I can't pick a favorite. I mean, Am I OK is a very special song. Why is Am I Okay a special song? It's like the one ballad. So it definitely stands out. And it's also, I wrote it a week after I broke up with my longtime partner.

Long time five years. Long time for gay people. It's long. Yeah. That's a long time for all people. Yeah. What is that? Like 25 in dog years or what?

No, it's times seven. I can't do that. 26. Yes. I'll match your bad math. Well, what is five times seven? Someone doing it. It is 35.

35. 35. So my 35-year-old relationship, it ended. And a week later, I was in a writing session in London. And this was what we wrote. And so it was just like raw. fresh, real. I mean, these were literal questions

that I was asking myself and questions that my therapist had prepared me that I would be asking. And I just like, I've written, you know, vulnerable, sensitive stuff before, but I feel like this one was just, it was so in the moment.

I don't think I've ever written a song while I'm like in the midst of those types of feelings. How did you mentally respond to finish? writing the song. Did it, did it? It was therapy. Yeah, it was like catharsis. It like let me sort of, it helped me through the, the process of grieving, healing, all that.

And then, you know, finishing it, I think we got a good demo after the first day in the studio. And it was originally to acoustic guitar. And then producer changed it to piano. And he sent it back to me. And I was like, oh, whoa. this is different this this this takes it to the next level. Did your ex hear it? Yes.

What do you say? I think he was like, okay, okay. You have feelings. I didn't know. I think he was thinking that I just like flippantly was like, I'm over this, you know, and I was like, no, this was not an easy decision. This was, I'm still, you know, hurting. So, yeah.

I think it was good. It was a good way to, you know, fly an olive branch over to him a little bit. Do you feel like you're on the same page on what the singles should be on this album? I made myself fucking crazy, trying to figure out singles, and also the sequencing of the tracks. I mean, those two things. Yeah. That made me insane. What is the process? And made all my team insane as well, because I was like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I just like, this one goes actually number nine, but it's actually because number six goes the number one. Oh, yeah. But I mean, that was Jess and I being like, hmm.

Hmm. Hmm. But, you know, in the past, I've, like, I've had experiences when I did, like, major label releases where the single was picked and I didn't really have a say. And I was like, uh, and I was, I don't think that's the right one. I don't think that's the right one. And then it didn't do well. And I went, I told you. So were you ever wrong the other way? Probably. Like, that wasn't the right one. Totally. Probably. Yeah. I mean, I'm wrong all the time. But I'm also right all the time. If that makes any sense. Yeah. But yeah, I don't know, I just tried to trust my gut on this one. Like, I was like, what? I don't know.

I feel like this is the vibe. Eat you alive. Just, I wanted the first thing to feel like bombastic and sort of rock, you know, I think that over the years I've learned that like, you know, fans and even casual fans, they, they see you in a certain way. And you can try all you want to. like challenge them with their perception of who you are, but sometimes it's good to also just lean into what they expect. And so I was like, you know, this album blends a lot of like, there's rock influences, there's pop. But I thought, let's do the first one. Let's do a rock kind swag song, you know. It's interesting to have a self-titled album still have somewhere in the

seat of that, the expectations of the listener influencing who you are as a writer. Then you start questioning who you are as a human even in that process. Well, I tried not to question it while I was making the song. So, like, that, like, I was done with the album before I started worrying too much about the outside. I think I made the album more for myself this time than I ever have, which is, which is cool. Like, that hasn't always been the case.

It changes your expectations. At least not to put thoughts in your head, but it feels like, you know, there are albums that I have that I'm exceptionally proud of that did not. do well commercially. And I'm, like, I'm, I'm, I'm totally satiated with that. And I've had songs that have done exceptionally well commercially that I don't care. I just don't care about, you know, like, it's fine. That's great that it's there. But I don't really, you know, it just happens I was in the room that day or like I had the idea that worked, you know. What are your expectations at this point in your career when you release an album?

Well, I think, I think I've, I've started to manage them more because I don't know what to expect ever. You know, I think, I think with this one, it was kind of like, I don't want the, I don't want it's, you know, the numbers success to be the thing that defines it or, or validates me or tells me if it's good or not. Like, I know that this is good this time. I feel really, like, clear. And it feels really good to just be like, well, I'm proud of it. And then, yeah, of course, of course, you know, we're artists. Of course we want validation. Of course we want people to hear our stuff. Of course, you know. And I, you know, I'm also like an, and, you know, I'm also like an, an entertainer. I've done other people's music

and stuff too. So I'm like, I am concerned about the audience. I want the audience to have a good experience. Yeah, we're both theater kids. Yeah, there you go. So it's like part of the marrow. It is. It's a weird thing when what you get from growing up doing theater and we'll get

to that is that you have these shows that live in a genre and you each character plays a different artist in this world and they each have their own EP or album throughout this thing. And you live in this musical space.

If you're doing bye-bye birdie, you're in, you know, you're in rockabilly. Yeah, exactly. If you're doing Fiddler, you're doing Klusmer music. If you're doing, you know, West Side Story, your Sondheim numbers game, whatever it is, you know. But you, the idea that you can really live in this space, and it gives you, I think, when it helps you define when you're working on an album, hey, this is the world I want to live in now. And when you work on Queen, then you're like, okay, I'm in, in this headspace. And you can jump around. Yeah. Like, that's interesting. You put it. I've never heard it put that way. But that's, maybe that is the difference. Like, I feel like it's like a character forms, you know, or like, yeah, the world. I mean, the world building thing. I kept hearing that word thrown around the last couple years. And I was like, right, right, world building got it. And yeah, of course. I. I, And I'm always drawn to artists that do that. And so I think with this project, we, like, we really pushed that further than I think I've pushed it ever.

Is, you know, well, the Velvet album was definitely a clear world. But that was the album lost to the COVID pandemic. It was like it came out and two weeks later everything was done. Yeah, right. It was sad. But this album just like, I said to Jess, I'm like, I wanted to feel almost like our world is sort of like a dystopian, post-apocalyptic. almost a little bit sci-fi. Did you do the art direction?

I mean, the art direction is amazing. I have an art, I've creative director named Nikita that I worked with. But that's incredible. It's so great. And it was, it was a controversial choice because I wasn't totally, to be, you're hearing it here first, guys. I was like, is this the cover? Is it? Is this the right cover?

It's so different and a bit strange that I was a little scared of it at first. It feels like I'm listening to, it helps you listen to the album feeling, like you're listening to it in 2030. That was literally my thing. I'm like, I want this to feel like it's blasted into the future. Yeah, it doesn't, it, you can't listen. You could listen to the, especially if you're, the nostalgia moments, you, if the artwork feels like it belongs in, in the, in a different era, you're going to listen to it in that

era. Yeah. But I think you listen to it in the future, if that makes any sense. Yeah, it was like, I kept saying, like, I wanted to feel like we're like in Dune or something. Yeah. It's like, sort of like, it's, you know, it's the future. it's like another planet maybe and it's like it's new but it's old you know what i mean like it's

both are you still a theater kid well i wasn't for the longest time and then i got to go to a broadway show the two summers ago um start or two falls ago um and i missed it like i hadn't done it in 18 years i hadn't done a musical so like it was nice to kind of go back to that it felt full circle it felt like i was kind of revisiting like a younger me yeah and i like theater people i like the family i like the team I like the structure of it. That was good for me for a change because I'm very unstructured person

until about month three of a six-month run. And then I was like, okay, structure's killing me and I'd like to take a vacation. But it was really, it was good. It like stretched me. It challenged me. Yeah, a month three of eight shows a week. And I did a six-month run.

So it was like, when I was done, I was like, I just want to sit for like a week on my ass and do nothing. And I did. Yeah, and having to pay. yourself vocally is impossible. Luckily with that show, I will say, vocally it wasn't that challenging.

It's, you know, the emceeing cabaret is not necessarily like a big vocal role, but physically and mentally, it was like, it was a lot. Yeah. Especially in this production, you have to change like every other scene you're changing your makeup,

your hair, your full costume, and he's like sort of a shape shifter. So it was just like a lot. But when you are singing with Queen are, do you feel like you are Adam Lambert singing with Queen or do you feel like you're

Freddie Mercury? Hey guys have you ever wanted to get further in the world of And the writer is? If you ever want to sit in that seat across from me well guess what? You can now join the conversation. That's right because we just launched our Patreon. You'll get

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and Lynn Manuel Miranda and Shania Twain and Babyface so much, so many great interviews that you can get amazing insight and knowledge from. So come and check it out in the description below. There's a link for you to join us on Patreon. Do you feel like you are Adam Lambert singing with Queen, or do you feel like you're Freddie Mercury? I feel like it's me. I feel like I'm me.

But I've always, like an actor, I've always tried to break down the songs as like, by their intention in order to find how I want to sing them. And so it came down to me going like, okay, what was the, like, the expectation of the writer here, you know, whether it was Freddie or, or Brian or Roger or John, like, what do they want the audience to feel? What's the vibe? What's the story they're telling?

You know, so I try to break it down that way as opposed to, like, what does the recording sound like, you know? If you had coffee with Freddie Mercury, what's the conversation about? Do you want to put some whiskey in there? Sure. First and foremost. Yeah. I, God, I wish I could do that, you know? The sweetest thing is that Brian and Roger both have said, like, I think you guys would have

gotten along, which is like, that, that, like, made my night when he, then they told me that. I made my, it made me feel like, like, part of the family a little bit, you know, um, that's, that's good. That's good to hear. What's a question you would have for him? What's this one about? What's this one about? You know, it's like, some of the songs are kind of vague.

And, and he wasn't, like, really up front in the press. He was kind of private. And so there's a lot of little mysteries about him, you know? I would love to, like, learn more about what inspired some of the songs. Totally. Yeah. I mean, Brian told me at one point that play the game is sort of like, he thinks. He's like, I'm pretty sure that was Freddie sort of talking about, like, his sexuality and sort of, like, playing the game and, like, fitting in and, you know, assimilating to the culture.

and, you know, not saying anything about it. You know, he asked questions like, it's so easy, but I can't do it, you know, in that song. Like, can't do what, you know? So, yeah. Do you feel like you have to play the game still at all? Oh, there's a, I mean, the music industry is a big old game, isn't it? I mean, that's the part of the out that I don't like.

I think I love making stuff. I love making music. I love performing. I love making art. I love dressing up. I love all that. The business side of it, I'm like, oh, it's, it's, hardcore and it's so ever-changing and so rapidly like morphing into the next thing and

well especially from when you started yeah from until now it's like it's changed drastically it has and it keeps going like sort of side to side back and forth that you hear like you read like an article on billboard where they're like this is the new model of the business now and like three months later it's like well that's maybe that's not true as a california kid were you influenced by music that was coming out of california or were you influenced by the music your parents listened to on the East Coast. Probably more what my parents listened to. My dad was like a, he was a college DJ. Oh, wow. So he had like a clactic. A ton of vinyl. Like a ton of vinyl. And it's, you know, all 70s like Prague rock kind of stuff. He was totally like a hippie, you know,

did a bunch of acid in, you know, the woods when he was a teenager. So he was like, you know, a music lover. Yeah. And my mom was a music lover too. She listened to more like, like, I remember her putting like the Sly Stone album on and Al Green and. And, you know, stuff that was a bit more like, you know, R&B pop kind of leaning. And my dad was into, like, the weird psychedelic rock shit. Did they make music at all? My dad can kind of play piano, like, just like self-taught for fun, like jamming. But my mom, my mom knows a lot of lyrics.

She's good with lyrics. Who can sing? They don't, no one sings. That's weird. So as I was screaming through the house as a kid, I'm sure they were like, whoa, okay, where did that come from? Well, it's a weird thing because you don't. don't necessarily know your kid is good if you're not, you know? So even if, even if you're killing it around the house and you're saying like, oh, that's cool. He can sing all these songs or

maybe not. Maybe it's just like, be quiet. I want to, you know. There was some of both. Yeah, there was some of both. I mean, my parents were, were not like stage parents. They weren't like, you know, everyone gets a trophy. You're amazing. They were like real, which I'm really grateful for that, you know, they weren't blowing smoke up my ass like as a kid, you know. And I think you see that a lot with kids and then it gives it's great. You do want to encourage your kids. Of course. You want to like, you know, make them feel safe

and free to express themselves, but also like there's the flip side of where you're feeding your kid, you know, delusion on a platter. And that's not great when you get into the real world, you know? At what point did you realize that you were good?

I remember I was doing theater, like from 10, I was doing musicals like with this children's theater group. And I remember we were doing Fiddler on the roof. There you go. And, you know, the Russian soldier in Fidler on the roof that sings like the big long note? What is the song?

What, the one that models sings? Oh, La Chim, yeah. There's like a Russian soldier that does this, like, big tenor solo thing in that. And I got cast to do that, and I held the note. They were like, hold the note as long as you can, the one big note at the beginning of it, and I held it for a long-ass time.

Yeah. And everybody kind of went, oh, oh, wow. people were impressed. And I remember being like, oh, I'm good, I'm good at that. Like, I didn't really know if I was either, you know, until you start getting responses, you know. So, yeah, that's how I started. And then I started taking voice lessons and theater in California is not, I mean, San Diego has, has the globe, shout out to the globe. And they have, and they have La Jolla playhouse.

You know, they have two major regional theaters, but still theater in California. California is not as prevalent as is on the lower east side. No. And that was the thing. Like I always, I think by the time I was a teenager, I was pretty settled on like, I'm going to be a, like a performer. I want to do musicals. Yeah.

So my fantasy, of course, was to move to New York to do Broadway. That was the goal. But for whatever reason, I stayed in L.A. for like, until I did Idol. Why did you move to L.A.? Well, I mean, I was kind of like, San Diego's. Sandy was kind of conservative. And I was kind of like, there's no opportunities here for me. There's going to be a lot more in L.A.

Not conservative. Yeah, that is not how you describe me. No. And I was like, yeah, let's. And I had some friends that had moved up there that I did theater with a couple summers before while I was in high school. And I kind of followed them up there and was like puppy dog on their doorstep. How old were you when you were doing that? 19.

Yeah, 19. Did you feel like, you know, at 18 or 19, a lot of. the kids are in college. They're doing I was supposed to go to college. I was enrolled in college. I applied to like all the big art schools and I didn't get into any of them because my grades weren't super competitive. And I hadn't done all the like extra

BS that you're supposed to do. I was like when I was in high school, I was just, the only thing that I put my energy into were the extracurricular activities like theater, choir, photography. All the artistic stuff. I was like, you know, and I was okay with writing, okay with history, but like math fucked me. Like math.

knocked me off the path. I had to go to summer school. I was like, because the whole time I was going, why do I need to know this? I'm never going to use this in my life, and I never have. Yeah, now it's even harder to justify when someone could just say, hey,

what's, what's three times? What was it? Or A plus B equals whatever. I'm like, fuck A and B. What are we doing? Right. Let's sing about it. Yeah.

And why don't they teach you how to do things that are practical? like your taxes or like a mortgage payment or like teach me like life stuff. It is really weird that life 101 is not part of everybody's. I find that so strange. It doesn't make any sense to me. Especially in a place where you can't where you need insurance. Yeah.

When did you start writing? Do you know, I mean, I remember in high school doing a lot of creative writing, you know, like kind of, you know, short stories. Like in school, like, you know, they would, I took a creative writing. class and that kind of sparked something for me. I enjoyed that. Do you remember anything specific that you wrote? I'm sure there's like a folder somewhere. Yeah, I think like for like the like the final that in that semester it was like you had to write, you have to like submit like a book of like these different things and kind of check off a

criteria and I got into it. I liked it. I enjoyed it. I also got really into the like the graphic design. I was like designing stuff and you know my text with like, you know, book. And, you know, of course, I was like, it has to look good. And then I think when I was in my early 20s in L.A. when I got sort of settled there, I was smoking a lot of weed and definitely doing a lot of, like, creative writing. Poetry and I was always with a pen and a notepad. But as somebody who could sing the phone book, didn't you want to sing those lyrics? I don't think I knew how. Like, I was, like, writing, like, prose and poetry.

and, you know, being like, well, if they're lyrics, they have to rhyme. And I don't think I really knew how to get from point A to point B. And then I, a friend, my friend Alan Lewis, who was sort of like a big brother mentor to me and dragmother, had been like messing around on garage band. This was sort of like when garage band became a thing, like it was new, you know. And he showed it to me and I was like, ooh, I'm going to learn how to do that. And so I started messing around on garage band. And that kind of, that got me.

me like sort of curious about okay what's it like to make my own music what's it like i became fascinated with production and like the sounds and the layers and like how you can manipulate the vocal and i would listen to certain recordings of artists i like and would try to like figure out how they did it yeah interesting you know and yeah i just that's when i think that that's when it started to sort of become like a fantasy of mine was like and at the time i thought this is just this is just a fantasy like There's no way I would ever become a pop rock star, you know? I didn't think it was in the cards for me at all. A solid anecdote about not rhyming, though, and having hits and theater.

You know the song, you got trouble. Right here in River City, right here in River City. There's no rhyming in it. It's four minutes of no rhyming. It's really... It's rhythmically, it's really... It's like a rap, yeah. It's like a rap, but there's no rhyming in it.

I don't realize that. If you want to listen to something crazy, listen to You Got Trouble Right here in River City Right here in River City So you know You end up in Wicked

Yeah Uh Shout out Steven Schwartz Lovely guy He is a lovely guy Yeah The The

That show is Is really challenging But it's also really fun And it's all these things Yeah I was in the ensemble So like it was And I was an understudy So like I understudied Fiero

But then I was in the ensemble And it was Did that make you want to do it more or less? I don't know. You know, it was funny because I had done theater in California the years prior to that. And it was always like a two or three week run. That was it. So it was like never enough to sort of like really wear yourself out on anything.

So it kept me wanting more and more. And when I did Wicked, that was the first time I had done a run that long. I was in the first national tour and I was in it for six months. And I was like, by the end of the six months, I was like, I'm burnt out. I don't want to do this anymore. Yeah. And I think, I think, you know, I think I wanted more, you know, I wanted to, you know,

maybe play the part permanently, but that wasn't really in the cards. And I think I remember at that end of the six months being like, okay, I want to go back to L.A. And I want to, I want to become a recording artist. Like, at that point, I kind of, that was sort of my, I was more like clear on wanting it. It's weird because there's this, you know, the just wait and you'll see, you know. And had you gotten that role, had he been Fierro for a long? Would it change things? Yeah.

It would have changed things. For sure, it would have. And I remember I kept kind of. You're not auditioning for Idol. Right. Not yet. If your path was already like, you know, you have that on your resume. You're now looking for an equivalent part.

You're now looking for muddle and Fiddler. It's the next step up on the ladder. Yeah. And versus this, it was like, that's a good time to jump ship. Yeah. And it was interesting. because I had I was in a band for like a little while in like I think it was in between when I did the first national I was in this band after that. What was the band called?

It was called the Citizen Vane. Okay. And it was essentially a metal band and I didn't really know much about metal. But, you know, I could scream and they liked it. And looking back on it, like, again, I just was so unhinged. I just didn't really know what it was yet. Well, one of the hardest things that people have is when they can sing anything,

you know, our, you know, one of our models around this show is there, there are millions of singers, there are thousands of artists, and there are only 40 songs per genre at a time. Yeah.

You know, it's hard to, when you can sing everything, then everyone's also like, hey, you should sing wicked, then sing a metal band. Yeah,

yeah. You should do ballet. No, you should sing a rock song. You should sing a pop. Because you can. Yeah. You know? And it's like, and to be able to say, you know, six albums later, like, this is me and this is my.

It's like, it's, um. Yeah. Yeah. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you want to. Like, you know, I could probably bust out an opera song. I'm not going to do an opera album, you know. Right. It's not.

I don't want to live with that and have to perform it, you know, every time I do a show. Yeah. But yeah. Fast forward two years from, like, okay, I'm. here. Opera album. It's really good, though. You've talked about, you know, American Idol a million times, but from the perspective

of even, you know, song-based, there's, when you audition for it, you first, you select the song you audition with. Yeah. But there's this whole process around casting songs. with people who are singing on these shows. And it's gotten more... It's produced. It's produced.

It's guided. You know, they have to make a TV show, right? That's the gig. And, you know, when I auditioned, it was like, there are different camps. Like, there were the TV people from Fox at the time. There were the people from 19 who were the, like, the music management company that takes the winners and the runners-ups or whoever they want and signs them to deal. So, like, there were two different camps.

right and they each had different agendas and like I was really really fortunate because I was the oldest person on my season I was right at the cutoff the age cut off what was the age cut off I think it was 27 and I had been working in LA for the like for the 10 years prior or almost 10 six seven years prior so it was it was like I had some professional experience I like had been represented I had like done this that and the other thing I was probably more professionally experienced than any of the other contestants, which definitely helped me out. Like, it helped me figure out what I was dealing with, sort of in how to play the game, you know, how to, like, give the producers what they were looking for, but still do what I wanted to do.

Like, you learn that stuff as a performer over the years, you know? Auditioning with Bohemian Rhapsody and then being the singer for Queen. Well, it's funny, because I didn't even audition with that first. The first song I sang was Rock With You by Michael Jackson. Oh, that's a good song. And the judges were kind of like, they didn't see it. They didn't get it. Like, it was, I saw their, like, billwildered faces.

And I was like, okay, this isn't going well. And mind you, I had to quit my job at Wicked. I did Wicked for six months on that national tour, came back home, tried to be a rock star for a minute, ran out of money, and then found out two years later that they were opening an L.A. company. And I begged to be in that. So I was in the L.A. company as well. So I was into my second year in the L.A. company when I auditioned for Idol. But they made me quit in order to get to the TV judges because you're not allowed to have any professional contracts in play.

You're not allowed to, you know, have any ties. So I had to like sever everything. Give me more detail in that. Because the way the shows work and how people get to judges, how people get in it, especially when you live in L.A. And you can sing. There are a lot of TV shows. There are a lot of people looking for singers.

There are people who might know that Adam Lambert is an excellent singer. You know, I don't know what your journey was, but it's a little more nuance that I think people realize as far as how people get in front of the judges. It was like four rounds of producer auditions first. Your very initial thing was it, hey, no one, I'm going to audition for American Idol. Or did somebody say, hey, you should audition for American Idol? No, no, no, it was me. I said it. And I had to go to the cattle call, like the big open.

open call in San Francisco with like thousands of people and wait six in the morning. It was, it was obnoxious. It was really brutal. Were you ever in doubt or was it, no, this is that. I don't really know. You know, I think I had the summer prior to that, I had gone to Burning Man. It was my fourth time going to burn, third time going to Burning Man. And I did a bunch of acid in the desert and sort of had an epiphany. I like, all of a sudden just like, figured out a way to recognize all the things that I was afraid of and just vanquish them, like just get rid of them. And I came back from that Burning Man trip and was just like revived.

And a weight had been lifted. And all of a sudden I felt like I got to throw myself into more opportunities. I got to say yes to everything. I got to like put more eggs in different baskets and just go for it because I wanted something to happen. And so that was that was sort of the like the push that I needed to like really go for it and the music thing. I remember like I started writing for like a publisher just to be like an in-house, you know, songwriter. That was one thing that kind of got moving. And then, and yeah, I saw the audition notice and I was like, I've been a fan of the show for since it started.

Love Kelly Clarkson. Loved Fantasia. Love, you know, Jennifer Hudson, all these people. And I remember the year before me, what was his name? David Cook had won the year before I was on. And I remember watching that season and being like, oh, he's so smart. He's taking songs and like reinventing them, like doing different arrangements of them. And I was like, that's how you win.

And so when I got in there, I was like, I think I know how to play this game, you know? When you get through the first round, the second round, the third round, now you're in front of the judge. and you have to drop out of Wicked to get in front of the TV judges. So the pressure was high. You have to sign the contract before you do that in case you get to the where you enough. Pressure is high. You walk in,

you do rock with you. They're like, in my mind, I was like, fuck that. Because I just lost my job or quit my job, which means I didn't have health insurance and, you know,

all the stuff that I needed to live. How am I going to pay rent? So I was like not taking no for an answer. And the minute I saw them kind of, of look at me funny. I was like, what else you want to hear? I got, I got tricks. Like, what do you want? And they were like, well, what do you have? And I figured, I'm like, okay, go for the classic rock, because that's like the other thing that you can do, you know? And so I did. It's so weird because they, most people probably don't get that second song.

So you did well enough. I kind of was really, I kind of told them I was going to do a second song. I didn't really ask. That's the confidence of somebody's 27 who's been on stage, who's toured around and wanted the gig. I wanted the gig. I was like, I need the gig. And Yeah, I remember, like, Paula was super supportive from the get-go. They had asked, like, what your first concert was. And I was like, it was Paul Abdul. It was literally the first concert I ever saw. So I think instantly we, like, clicked.

I think my first concert in an arena was George Michael. Ooh, lucky you. I never got to see him live. I remember running around. I was, like, six when Faith came out. Oh, I love that song. Oh, that's just so good. I remember hearing it on the radio, like my mom would be driving us places and that would come on.

It was such a good song. And also, I need you tonight by NXS. I loved that song. Oh, yeah. And every time it came on, my mom would say, like, he's so sexy. Every time. I was like, what is she talking about? Why does American Idol, why did it work so well for those first 10 years?

And why is it that not just American Idol, but American Idol, the voice. why is it so hard for them to break an artist now? I love that you ask me, like, as if I know. I have thoughts on this. I can speculate. I mean, I don't really know. I think, like, I think streaming changed things because, you know, it used to be an event. Like, people would have to tune in at a certain time on a certain night and watch it together.

So there was this, like, communal sort of event about it. Like, the water cooler conversation the next morning, families were together, voting, was like an active thing. It was, it was just more focused, I think. You had a, you had a captive audience, you know? I mean, my season, there was like 30 million people watching every episode. Were you ever nervous? Yeah, I was terrified.

Yeah. I was completely... How do you deal with stage fright? NMPA is our lead sponsor, yet again. What is the National Music Publishers Association? What do publishers have to do with songwriters anyway? Well, unlike artists who can be

unsigned artists, there is no such thing as an unsigned writer. You can be a self-published, a co-pubbisher, a published writer. Publishers only make money if songwriters make money. So, NMPA goes and fights for you. They go to Congress, they go and support the community, they fight DSPs to get you paid more. That's what they do. They fight for you, and they fight for this podcast. So thank you for fighting for songwriters, NMPA. Thank you for fighting for us, too. How do you deal with stage fright? Whiskey?

Back then, that's what I would do. I snuck it in. You weren't allowed to have any alcohol, and I would, like, put whiskey in, like, a water bottle. It's actually a really funny story. Kara DiGuardi, great writer, who I ended up writing with on my first album. She gave me kind of a hard time the whole time I was on the show.

She kind of busted my balls. When the other judges were into me, She was like, I was like, why does she hate me so much? So after I was done with the show, I was doing a writing session with her. And I was like, why are you busting my balls like that on the show? And she's like, well, the first live show that we did when you sang the Rolling Stone song, before you went on, I heard you like say to one of the runners like, and I eat my honey water.

And I was like, what? She goes, yeah, you were like meeting your honey water. And I thought you were this pretentious, you know, vocalist, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, Kara, that was weird. that was whiskey. And she was like, oh, now I understand you. I was like, I was terrified. I needed to loosen up to sing that rock song, you know?

It was like a rock song, you know. I love Kara. She's great. And we like totally clicked like after I was on the show. She's like, I didn't think that I would like you. And I was like, I don't know what the problem is, you know. She thought I was uptight, you know? Honeywater.

That's really funny. Yeah. That's a good name for a song slash album. It has a ring to it or a band. Or bit. Yeah. We can start that as our side project. Honeywater.

The Honeywater, too. She's honestly, like, not just one of the smartest songwriters, but smartest people that you'll ever be. Brilliant. Yeah. I'd have great time. But, yeah, so, like, you know, I definitely, like, I would get really nervous, but I also back then, like, there was something about adrenaline and, like, the nerves that was, like, fuel for me. Like, it really, that's why when I was on Idol, I was screaming the entire time in the stratosphere because I was way too excited. I was not relaxed, like ever.

And so that all that frenetic energy would come out that way. And I learned over the years, like, to now I don't feel that way when I perform. Now I'm like settled just because I think I'm more experienced and used to it. But back then, I used to get so much adrenaline. And for like big, crazy rock songs, that's great because it can cook you and like push you. For the ballads, it's not great because then you're like shaky and you have like no, you're not grounded. you know so that's something that like i've learned a lot about over the years and how to sort of like

manage it and harness it and ride it you know there's so many major rock vocalists that uh that were not only part of that show but a part of the zeit guys since you've become adam lambert the star we know have you had any cool stories with any rock stars that that, you know, came up to you and were like, your voices. Aw. Nuts. I mean, yeah, I've met a bunch of people. I don't know.

I think, you know, obviously, Brian and Roger, that's rock and roll royalty. Of course. I've met artists that, like, I'm always like, you know who I am. Like, it always kind of surprises me, you know. Maybe less now, but in the beginning, yeah, it was like really, I remember, like, going to an event, you know, because I was doing the rounds at, like, you know, the Grammy type events and, like, some of the L.A. You know, Academy Award. parties and, you know, agency parties and, you know, schmoozing. And I remember meeting randomly Justin Timberlake.

And he was like, this was early. And he goes, you got to do like Queen Night at the Opera, man. And I was like, yeah, yeah. He's like, you should remake that album. I was like, huh, okay. And then look what happened with Queen, you know. Have you told Justin Timberlake this story since? I don't have his number.

Thanks, Justin, you know. He's a lovely person, too. Talented. You win the show, right? Oh, is the runner out. Second. That's right. Oh, yeah.

You're right. That's a great. That's great. I love that people thought I won. That's so great. Yeah. I always, that's always like the American Idol like thing. I did not win.

How does that make you feel? I was cool with it, actually. I was, first of all, by the time we finished the finale, I was like, I am so fried right now. I am ready for a break. My whole purpose of going on that show, was to get a record deal. And before we even did the finale, I'm not telling all the T, you know,

the powers that be, the people that ran the management company, they came into my dressing room and they were like, we want to sign you, RCA wants to sign you, no matter what happens. And I was like, okay, great.

So like, I was good. I was like, that's all I came here to do. I wanted the opportunity to like, I kept saying to myself, like, with the music thing, I'm like, if I could just work with these great producers that I love, that I'm a fan of, something magical could happen. You know, and I, and at the top of my list, when we started the album, I was like, Max Martin, Dr. Luke at the time. Ryan Tetter, like, there were these names of people that I really looked up to and respected.

And I got to work with all three of those guys, which was amazing. That's right. You're the Chris Allen season. I know because I had a couple songs with him on his album. Sweet guy. Like the sweetest, coolest down-to-earth dude. It was funny because the whole time we were on the show, we were actually roommates for a majority of it.

That's cool. And we just got each other. We were like, we had each other's back. So when it was him and I in the finale, it was actually really cool because we, like, genuinely respected each other. Yeah. It felt good.

It's interesting. Now it's a badge of honor in a way. If you don't even qualify, you know, it's like, I feel like you were part of the era when if people knew who you were from that show, you became a rock star or you hadn't a shot at it. You had a shot at a shot.

You had at least like you could have a good swing. It's also, but it was also a reflection of where the music industry was at for like the first 10 years of the show because the music industry was suffering, obviously, from all the streaming sites that like Napster and Limewire and all that stuff. So they were, you know, they were like on their knees in the 2000s.

That's why the indie thing became, so hot in the 2000s because the majors were like, eh, we don't have any money, we're losing money, we don't know what to do. And then when they kind of figured it out, it started to shift again. But Idle was, I've read this and it makes sense. Like, Idol was sort of brought to America as a format from the UK, but it was really meant to like become A&R and PR and artist development for labels. Like they were like, we need help getting to the people and building fanbase.

basis. And, like, I think that's why it was sort of designed that way. Yeah, I mean, it's the, uh, uh, there are a few parts to why I think American Idol really worked. But one thing was that at the time the judges were less famous than the artist. Yeah. You know, so you, you could fall in love with Adam Lambert and not feel like, like, when Paul Abdul is the most famous person on the panel. Yeah, she was like the legacy artist. Yeah. Then, then, who's one of the one. wonderful and she's great. The best.

But it's not, it's a different thing when you're, you know, when you have, the voice, obviously they have like big stars. Like music stars. Yeah, and American Idol turned into that and a bunch of,

you know, so it like, it made it harder to break artists when you're watching these other people. You also, you know, being the first, you know, the first gay contestant to be that successful from,

from that show has, you know, that song that you're talking about, Freddie Mercury, talking about, like, it's, you know, you have to assimilate. You can't really. There's no. I mean, I did play the game a bit on the show.

I mean, I was out at 18, right? And I've always been, like, once I came out as a teenager, I was, I mean, luckily, my parents were really chill about it. So I had, like, a good support system. I was in with theater kids and creatives and, you know, club kids and all that stuff in L.A. and I never really felt the challenges that other queer kids face. I didn't grow, you know, I wasn't in the Midwest. I didn't have, you know, bullies.

I wasn't getting, you know, I was in the arts. So that became kind of like a bubble for me, which is I'm grateful for it. It created a safety space for me and I could just express myself. And so I was like really comfortable like with my label of being gay and I really liked being gay. I was really gay for my 20s. I was being gay all over town. Wait, you're gay? Yeah.

That would be the other. And so it was like, I was cool. And when it came time to the show, it was like, I wasn't closeted on the show. Yeah. It just never was the line of questioning when the cameras were rolling because like that wasn't sort of standard back then. It was sort of like you were straight until proven anything else back in the day. I mean, it might have literally been the policy. Yeah.

And they, it was interesting because a lot of people go, oh, did they do this? Did they tell you not to say? And I said, no, they didn't say shit. Like they, in fact, there were some pictures that came out on the blogs right as we were going into the live shows. And it was me and an ex, like dressed up, going to like raves, kissing, you know. And they, the photos had come out and the publicist for the show actually called me. And it was the day that they were doing the top 13 event, which was the very last time that we were even going to be interviewed. like by the press before we went into the shows.

Because once you're in the show, they like, they don't want you doing interviews and stuff to influence votes. Or they didn't at the time. And so the publicist called me and she was like, how do you want to approach this? And she was very cool and very supportive. And she said, well, what do you think I should do? And she says, I think you should do whatever you feel is right.

I was like, okay. And then I was trying to get it out of her. I'm like, do you think the show is going to feel? She's like, we're down for whatever you're, you want to do. So I was like, okay. And so when they asked me about it on the, on the carpet, I was like, yeah, that's me. And I think they were like waiting for more. I'm like, what are you asking? Like, they wouldn't ask. So I was like, well, if they're not going to ask, I'm just going to say, yeah, that's me. I'm kissing a guy. Like, get over it.

No, it's really, it's helpful for the community to have somebody who's confidently themselves. Yeah. And then it like, it ends the conversation because it's a stupid line of questioning anyway to give a shit about other people's. Like, now we get that. But I think at the time, the gay community was in a very interesting spot because we were fighting for visibility and fighting for rights. I mean, gay marriage kind of like right after I did idol, that was sort of on the bill. Like, we were at a very interesting turning point in mainstream culture. And national television is very different than. Very different.

And national radio is very different. It's not Bravo. No. And it's not the Broadway scene in New York. Yeah. It's like, it's a little tricky. Yeah. So it was like, it was a little tricky.

to navigate, but I'm, you know, I ain't stupid. I wasn't born yesterday. I kind of like had seen how queer people had fared on the show in seasons prior. And it wasn't good. And I was like, let's like, unless it comes up, I don't really think it needs to be, you know, proclaimed. Right. I think if I had had like, you know, a boyfriend or something at the time and they had been in the audience, maybe that would have been the natural segue. But there was just no reason to talk about it. You know? Four-year entertainment becomes one of the biggest albums that 19 Entertainment does around American Idol. Did it?

I didn't realize that. Yeah, it did great. I mean, it's peak number three and Billboard 200. It's like, it's a massive album to have. It's like, yeah. Put that in your pocket. The guy, the guy, Ashley Newton was the guy that did the A&R with the management company. And he was amazing.

Yeah, he's a legend. such a great guy and so cool. And when we sat down, it was like, what kind of album do you want to make? And I just loved that I was dealing with, like, because after the confidence of getting so far in the show, I was, like, self-assured to be like, I'm going to say what I want to do, you know?

I'm like, I'm not going to do the same old idol, formulaic adult contemporary crap. I don't want to do that. That's not me. And they were like, okay, what do you want to do? I'm like, I'm going to do like a pop. I want to do pop music and rock, you know, pop rock. I was like, I want to do like what, like,

like pink and Kelly Clarkson. Like, I want to do that stuff that's like edgier and cooler. And then, of course, like, Gaga was just breaking. And I was like, like, like her. There's, like, room to do the glam theatrical thing. Like, that's me. Like, let me do that. And so they got it.

And Ashley, like, because we had to put the album together so quick, I didn't get into the writer's room on a lot of these songs on that first album because we were just doing it fast. But he got songs from like major established acts, you know. Gaga wrote a song. on the album. Yeah, I mean, Pink. He does what he want for me.

I mean, it was like they got Rivers Cuomo from Weezer. They got Matt Bellamy from Muse. They have a song from the darkness, Justin Hawkins. I mean, Linda Perry did a song. I mean, it was like, oh, the Linda Perry one I did. No, she wrote it. I didn't write it.

She wrote it. I didn't write. Yeah, I don't think I wrote much on that. There was a couple little things that I started writing, but not much. when, you know, the second single is, what do you want for me?

The first single comes out, it does fine. Well, what do you want from me? The first single was great, and they spent half a million dollars on a music video. Right. And, like, they were gearing up

to, like, make that the big deals before your entertainment. And then I performed on the AMAs the night before the song came out and it had a big controversy because I kissed a guy. Yeah, you kissed a keyboardist. Yeah.

And so... there were complaints, people were freaked out, all of a sudden, like, all the business side of it, they were all going, oh, shit, oh, shit, this is not what we were trying to do. You know, we didn't know he was going to do that. And so everyone was, like, freaked out. Who knew you were, who did know you were going to do that?

Did you see? Yeah, I didn't actually even know I was going to do it. It was like, I was just kind of going on. It's the honeywater. It was the honeywater. I did have a little honeywater. But it was just kind of like a moment. I was sitting in the audience watching, like,

all the acts before me and they were killing it and I got really like intimidated. And I got up there and it wasn't my best performance. It was a little sloppy. I was a little pitchy. I was having a hard time like hitting all my marks. I fell at one point and did like, which turned into a dive roll. I don't know what angel was protecting me on that. And so I was like, I was like, this is a wreck. This is a train wreck. And by the time I got to the end of the number, I was like, I got to do something to distract people from how bad this was. So in a split second, I'm like, I'm going to kiss the guy that I've actually been making out with a bit at home with our honeywater. I'm like, you know, we've kissed before.

So this is consensual, you know, and he loved it. And so, yeah, I kissed him. Yeah. What do you want from? He's huge. And it's, you know, Pink and Max and Shelbeck. Shout out Max. Shout out, Shao Shellebich.

It's great people. It's a massive song. I remember they sent me the demo. With her singing. Uh-huh. Because it was supposed to be on her album. And it was like done. Like the song was like done.

And for whatever reason, she didn't conclude. She was like, no, I don't want this one on the album. And so they came there like, we have a song that, and they played it for me. I'm like, this is great. Of course I want to sing this. And of course I want to work with Max Martin and Shelbach. Like, big fan. Do you feel like when you cut outside songs versus writing songs that it means something different to you?

Or do you, do you know, as somebody who's an actor who also can interpret songs, like the way that they were saying like David Cook could do, you know, where he's it. Do you find it that you Yeah. It's hard not to hear that song and not think it's yours. Well, it's like it's the thing of like if I can find my own story in it and relate to it, then it's good. Then I'll, you know,

I think one thing I will say that is that early on with demos is that I would end up taking on a lot of the mannerisms of the singer who sang the demo, which I've learned how to like not do now. Like I found my voice a little bit more now.

A lot more now. But I definitely think Pink influenced how I sang the song, for sure. Yeah. She's so good. And thank you, Pink. Yeah, right. She's incredible. I wrote a song with her called Barbies that came out.

And when I was vocal producing, I remember saying to the engineer, I was like, let's just make sure that there's no auto tune on because I can't really, it's so accurate that I can't really tell, like, what's a, I don't want, I want to be able to edit the actual performance. He's like, there is no auto tune on it. and it's you know she comes from a generation that didn't grow up on autotune you know same with you so it's like you know when you get the opportunity to record real singers who are just fabulous with their intonation you know it's it's a different game in the room because you're like oh this is it's almost intimidating it's real yeah it's real and you have to you're trying to edit something that's wonderful every time and so you know

I'm getting to sing uh that kind of song is yeah pretty great you know she's still she's in the BG track of that song. Oh, that's cool. Yeah, yeah. Like, you know, when I go and do like live stuff, you know, we have all the stems. And like if you isolate the vocal stems, you can kind of, you can hear her doing like an alto lower harmony. Yeah. Are you in any song that you're not the front man in?

Like, are you, do you sing background vocals on any songs that have come out? Same background. No. I sang like a little featured part on a Boy George record. That's cool. a couple years ago. I did a song on the Avici album, and a lot of people don't know it's me because they didn't credit any of the singers. They didn't say

featuring Allo Black or like they didn't put our names on it. What song was it? Lay Me Down with Nile Rogers. Nile Rogers and I did it with Tim Avichi, yeah. It was and it was like a really last minute spur of them. I'm thinking, Nile and I had met. He had played on a song on my second album. We got along really well and he's like, hey, I'm working, he called me one day. And he was like, I'm working with Avichi. It was like a Monday. He's like, come to the studio right now. I want to, I want to, I want to, I want to you to help me write this song. And I was like, I'm, like, I went out last night. I'm like kind of fried. Can we do it tomorrow? He's like, nope, it's the only day. I was like, hung over as fuck. And I was like, I'm just going to go. I'm going to do it. And we wrote that. I wrote the lyrics, like, it took like an hour. What was Evich like?

He was really cool. He wasn't there for that session. I ended up meeting him the later because Nile was doing some more writing with him in the Hamptons. And I was on the East Coast, and I went and I stayed with him for like three days and worked with them together. And he was great. You worked with Nile Rodgers and Invici together is the sickest session of all times. I've been in the room with, I got to work with Pharrell for a week, too. That was like, that was mind-blowing.

What's the like genius? He's brilliant. I mean, he's brilliant. He's just so cool. and like no bullshit, which I liked. Like, he was kind of like, no, that doesn't sound good. I was like, okay. He's like, that sounds good.

You know, he was just like direct, which was great. It's interesting, the culture of EDM stuff where they don't credit some people, you know. I was a little annoyed, to be honest. I don't think that was Evichie's thing. That was his manager's choice. And his manager wanted to make, I understood what he was probably going for. He was like, he wanted to make Avichie the star. I get it, but.

I sing a Galantus song. called Pillow Fights and the song's so good but it's a weird thing it's like having to deal with you deal with sound exchange and you get like your royalties you do the thing you like you're still a singer on it but it's a weird thing because you're like that's it's it was interesting to see it live and you're like I it's I feel disconnected considering that it's yeah I just feel like in this day and age especially and maybe it was sort of just shifting into streaming I think at that point too for him but like everyone needs as much help as everyone needs help you know an artist needs their credit a writer needs their credit like this is a tough business we're all trying to win we're all trying to like

make more art and make a living and survive like don't be selfish like take people along for the ride with you i'm i'm a firm believer in that i just think like it takes a village to do this stuff it's not just one person like bring them with you you know getting Grammy nominated is really cool. That was very cool. And especially coming off of a show and you're not, you know, it happens so fast. It's like really within a year and a half, you're going to the Grammy. That was exciting. That was really exciting. How did your family feel by you getting nominated for a Grammy? They were proud of me. I mean, it was just such a, it was so validating, you know, it was like, okay, because my one thing with Idol was that, you know, coming off of that show,

it's like you were put into a category a bit. And some people would, wouldn't take you seriously because you were on a talent show. And so, like, there was, there was some doors that were not open to me because of that. Like, you know, you weren't considered, like, quite the real deal or quite cool or whatever. And so getting the Grammy nom was, like, a nice moment to sort of feel like, okay, the industry is recognizing something, which was really nice. It probably helped that Max Martin produced it. Max is a lovely human. He's, like, the best.

He's been so supportive, so lovely. And like after that, then we did your whole career. Yeah, we did a whole album together. Yeah, exactly. The original high album. Yeah. And Shelbach's great too. I mean, I was thrilled to work with them on that.

I mean, they're just like the best. Max is like the best in the business. But they're also just so nice. What do you think makes Max and Shelbeck so great? The fact that they are nice and down to earth, that helps. That really helps. It's like they're not, they don't have these giant, obnoxious e, They're like, they genuinely love making music and they love artists, you know, and they're humble and sort of, yeah, down to earth.

Dry sense of humor, like such a dry sense of humor, which I love. Yeah, it's great. I did a thing last year, or two years ago now, in Sweden for Queen, like it was like a tribute thing. And Max was there because we were in Sweden. And we all were sitting at tables, you know, doing a dinner before the show. And Max said something really nice to me. He said, you know what I love about you? And I said, what?

He goes, whenever you get on stage, I don't have to worry. I just know you're going to deliver. I don't have to worry. He's like, some of the other people I've worked with when they get, I'm like, I'm like worried. How are they going to do? Is it going to be good? I was like, that's a really nice compliment.

That is, especially from him. Yeah. Brian May and Roger Taylor call you and say, hey, you want to sing Queen? Like, how does Queen contact Adel? Lambert and say, we should try singing at the MTV Europe Music Awards. They came onto the finale of Idol. They were asked by the producers to perform, and Chris and I performed,

we are the champions with them. So that was our first time meeting. So it was like, there was something in the air, something clicked. There was like a resonant thing. And it just felt good. And I think they, you know, I had sung Bohemia Rhapsody, so the seed was planted. I think also the, apparently they saw a video of me singing Led Zeppelin. during the run of the shows.

Like the Rock Week, I sang a whole lot of love, and they were impressed by that. So cool. Trespassing, that's a big album. Yeah. Good job on that. That went number one. Yeah.

First openly gay artist to debut at number one on Billboard 200. Which when they told me that, I said, really? Like, I had no idea. That is actually amazing that it took that long. Yeah. It's not the first time it's happened. It's the first time an openly gay man. So it's interesting when you're really,

We're talking about when... We're like, came out later. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. But interesting that it took, that it's not like we're in 1960. Right. You know?

You're talking about in the last 10, 15 years, these kinds of things have happened. Do you feel obligated to be a leader in the community? I don't feel obligated. I think it's something that I chose to, that I was drawn to, that I chose to dig into, I think. I think, you know, it was interesting because when it all started, because there wasn't, you know, because of like milestones like that and because there weren't a lot of gay men in, like, openly gay men in like the current pop music, like, world, there was extra focus on it. Like, you know, and also we were at a time where the media was so excited about it. Like they were, they wanted the headline. They wanted to put, make someone to a bit of a poster child and have them wave the flag. And, um, my public. at the time was, was, he's gay and he was really excited as well because he had worked on Idol for years and never had a contestant that he could kind of do the gay press with and like, you know, make some statements with. And so we worked really well together at Roger. And I think

that that it, there were moments where I was like, wow, this is like the, the headline is that I'm gay and no one's talking about the music. Okay, you know, like, yeah, would I, would I Rather, it had been a little more balanced, sure. But I also, like, felt strongly about being proud and sort of not apologizing for it and, like, being open about it. Like, I thought that I could do some good, you know? Yeah, it's weird, man. I mean, we're all just doing our own journey in the music industry. And so part of that comes the, you know, who you are as a human just comes with you.

Whatever you're, you know, it's just part of the deal. It's like, you can't have. had that, you know. And the other thing that was interesting is that it was like, I felt like if I had my publicist or if I kept, if I started being like, let's not talk about gay, then all of a sudden I'm like giving into the shame. And I'm like, that's not my vibe.

Like I'm going to be open and proud and like, you know, ready to talk about it. The next few years you're in queen officially and then, you know, and then you're in Glee. you're doing all these things that where you're a pop star, you're in theater, now you're a rock star, and then you're in TV. Was it hard to find your artistic identity,

or was this all feeling really, you know, because it's such a unique journey, did it feel like you were actually doing the exact path the you should be doing. I think those years, it was like me, the entertainer. Not as much me, the artist. I mean, I think the glee run was really fun. I mean, that felt a lot like Idol.

It was like I got to sing like a bunch of songs. We got to do recordings of them like we did on Idol. I was really, I thought the recordings turned out really good. Like, some of them were really cool. And then, you know, acting and being on camera was like, that was a bit new. That felt good to do something a little, stretch myself a little bit. Not super different from theater. but different.

And yeah, so I was like, you know, I was like kind of finding my footing. But I do think that like I had strong artistic creative ideas. The problem that I was having around those years was that they weren't being sort of, the people I was working with felt like they knew better. It felt like they were like, no, you need to do this. This is where it's going to work. We want to put you here. And I'm like, okay, but I kind of want to do this. And so there was some, like, tension, you know.

I mean, the trespassing album is a really interesting album. It's, like, kind of bipolar because all the stuff that I really wanted to do is on the album. And then all the stuff the label wanted me to do is also on the album. And it's not necessarily the most cohesive album because we were on two different pages. And there was good work done on both sides of it. But, you know, I was like, I wanted to lead with like the funkier stuff. Like, you know, we did a, Frella and I did a song. And I did a song with Nile Rogers and Sam Sparrow.

I'm like, that's what I wanted to lead with. And they wanted to do what do you want for me, part two. The original high is really when you've become, like, a writer in many ways. Actually, I didn't write a lot on that album, to be honest with you. You're on, I mean, maybe it's just because you're on, like, the, you know, Ghost Town. Well, you know how it goes. Like, sometimes they give you a little cut or something. Oh, interesting.

I didn't do it. I did a lot of writing. It's just none of my writing really made the cut. I spent, like, two months in Stockholm. with the Wolf Cousins. And I went to the studio almost every day. And I tried to write a bunch of stuff. And it was like the stuff that I did a lot of heavy lifting on,

they just weren't that into. So I was like, why do you think that? It wasn't that good. When you listen back to those songs, do you see that? Yeah. I mean, the ones that I, yeah, the ones that didn't make the cut. Yeah, I can see why they didn't work. Yeah.

I think I was still learning. And I think being with... What a cool way to learn. Yeah. I mean, being with them, it's like some of the best in the business. And I learned a lot more about, I mean, I did a session with Tovlo, great writer. Yeah, she's amazing. And just watching her work.

Like, I think over the years, I've learned a lot from the writers that I've been in the room with. And then, yeah, I definitely contributed. And I've done, you know, I've contributed ideas. And what did you learn from Tovlo in particular? She trusts her gut, like her instinct. She doesn't overthink. And the simplicity of it is what makes it so great. It's simple.

But that's kind of the Swedish thing. It's like the melodies are simple. They're symmetrical. They're like... Yeah, it doesn't have to be this. Yeah. This is not... They match.

It's almost slightly mathematical, you know? It's like just in being in those rooms and watching them work, I did learn a lot. So I think by the time I did Velvet in 2019, I was very involved in that one. Like, that was my baby. I wrote, I think I co-wrote everything on that album and drove sort of the creative direction. and like the sound of it. I didn't really, I didn't have, I didn't have an A&R. I was the A&R on that album, you know.

So like that one was really, very much, very much, yes. Why is it helpful to have an A&R? I mean, there's a list. I mean, the simplest thing is just having a second set of ears, someone to sort of be objective with you and be like, I don't like that. Because when you're the creator of everything from yourself, it's like you get attached to stuff, you know, and you think your idea is amazing

because you're like, look what I did, you know, having someone kind of be real with you and say, yeah, that's not a good line there. That part kind of sucks. Like, you could beat that. Like, that's very helpful. And then obviously, like, the contacts, who to work with, like, helping you, you know,

if you have a goal, helping you, like, sort of find the right people to get that goal, you know, like knowing how to make something happen. Ghost Town is a great song, by the way. I know that, like, before ghosting over that, that song is really cool, and it's not an obvious choice. No, and that was, I mean, I definitely, we had a couple other songs that they, and when it came time to pick the single, my management at the time were like not, they didn't get the ghost town record. They didn't, they were like, what? This was also, it wasn't finished yet. It was like still a demo.

And I could, I was like, no, this is going to be something special because it's so weird. It's so strange that we go from like folk country. vibes to like, you know, dark house, you know, it was like such a left turn. And I knew I was like, that's how you're going to get people's attention. You got to do something like drastic. The oh shit moment, you know, when you hear a record and you go, oh, what? And it had that. Max knew. Max was like, yeah, this one's cool. That's really funny. Yeah. That's all it takes. Velvet is like, because it's something that you're like so hands on and, and you're, and you're,

your hands were dirty in the writing from it. What would you tell that Adam now about his songwriting? Good job. I felt like I arrived on that. Like, I felt like I was getting it. Like, I got that there was a world. I got that there was a sound. I think what I had finally learned was not to do super complicated, abstract lyrics,

but to go a little more like simple, pop, you know? Easy ideas, you know. easy hooks. But then with Velvet, it was all sort of this sort of 70s low-fi world. So, like, it was fun.

It was fun to, like, create something that, like, had a very specific aesthetic. The thing about writing simply is it allows you to interpret and sing all over it. But when you write like a singer, that's when I think singers

get themselves in troubles because they're trying to write melodies that are fun to sing, but no one else can sing, or it's not. But if you write a really simple melody, a great singer, you know. You can ornament it. Yeah.

And again, like the, how you do it live, you can do whatever you want live. 100%. But that actual recording is different. That takes, it takes a lot of, you have to, like, really check your ego when you're in a writing session and you can sing four octaves or whatever. I mean, what's really great to. How many octaves can you sing? Do you know this answer?

I'm not sure. Or do you know the answer you just don't want to say? I actually don't know the answer. Somebody will know the answer. But, you know, the cool thing, Chatsy-B-C, what is Adam Lamber's? The funny thing is leading up till, but this is why I think I got to that point,

is that I, after the original high, I did so many writing sessions around town. And I don't know what was going on. I think my management, maybe we're just waiting for the thing that they felt like was the thing, but I wrote with so many people.

I had so many songs. in the vault. And these poor producers and writers that I wrote with were probably like, is it ever going to come out? Like, but I learned a lot through that process

because I did a lot of sessions. So like I really flexed, you know, I like did stuff like I went to that castle and Paris and France and I did that. I did so many sessions. So like I started trusting myself more

with what I could make. And I met some amazing people. You did the community thing. I did the community thing. Every, Every songwriter in L.A. Does the circuit. Who was in, like, we kind of came around the same time.

Everyone knows the same general writers. They all took a crack at writing a song for a day, maybe two in a day. They traveled around the world doing random sessions because some labeled this or in your case, you're the artist. But the thing is, like, you have to go in the grind of walking in. There's no song. You put everything into it. You sing the shit out of the demo and the song still isn't good enough.

And you do it again the next day. the next day and then at the end you're going through all these songs like oh maybe they aren't all good some of these are good some of these are and somebody's like nah that's the one and if you're lucky that they picked the right one at the right time i mean i you have to learn the way you did it there's no shortcut i think the problem that i had was like i had some good songs i didn't have anybody to that was like a partner for me to like go okay now what are we going to do with it or how do we make it better or like i didn't have an i didn't and i also for whatever reason my management at the time were not really taking the lead there either.

They were kind of like, and then at one point I was going to do like an EP and I had the songs and then it just sort of like fell apart. I don't remember what was going on. I think, you know, at the time also, like I was doing a lot of work with Queen. So that was sort of the priority because that's how we were all paying the bills. Fair. But yeah, it was a weird time because I felt like I was putting all this creative input

and output into something that like didn't have a home. So I just felt like I was just felt like I was just. just throwing my ideas into space. And it started to get kind of discouraging. Oh, it's, you know. It's a discouraging process. But how did you get out of the, you know, what brought back the confidence? I think the first song that we had for the Velvet album was with Tommy English, with superpower.

And I, Tommy's so cool. Like, great producer, really chill, great energy. We got in, and it was him and I'll see Juber. Oh, I see. And we, Ilsey actually drums on the, on the track, like, which is so cool. She got behind the drum kit. I just, like, the minute we finished it, I was like,

that's the, that's it. That's like, that's the sound. It's like a little 70s rock, but also funk, like, little disco bass line. Like, I love all those things together. And I was referencing a lot of, like, some of like the indie bands that were doing sort of that kind of influence stuff. And I wanted my album to have that sort of, like,

indie alternative feel. And that kicked it off for me. It came out, basically. Right as the pandemic hit, right as everything got shut down. I had all of these like promotional TV things lined up, performances. I had a tour with Christina Aguilera, like a co-headlining tour that was like in like already planned. And then COVID and just like washed it all out, which was such a bummer. Yeah.

It worked so hard on that album. It hit a lot of people in the music industry hard, but it really hit performers. Yeah. The hardest. Yeah. Yeah. Because then all of a sudden they're like, why don't you just perform on TikTok? And you're like, oh, and my, I was being essentially forced to do some dumbass, a couple dumbass things on, on social media that I was like, ugh. But, you know, it did keep us going. It was, it was fine. And then, like I said, during the pandemic,

I was like, I want to like get, since there's no one to do this with. Yeah, better at producing your own stuff. I want to like start playing around again on the computer. And so I start learning how to use logic. I got some good equipment. I, like, literally used YouTube to teach myself what to buy, how to do everything. What's the mic? You said I bought a nice mic. What was that mic that you bought?

Shit, what is it? I think it's a telefunken. Yeah, there you go. But it was, it's a, it's a, you know, she's a classy model, the Bentley. A Bentley. Yeah, sure. I was like, I'm a singer. I got to get a good mic, you know.

So then I, yeah. I used YouTube and taught myself how to do the basics of like vocal production on logic and then started doing Zoom sessions with writers. Yeah, it's the best. The goal was actually for, it was for, it was technically for a musical that I started writing. Oh. Which is still in the works. That was, I literally wrote like about 20 songs via Zoom with random people for this musical. So that's coming.

It's still on the shelf right now because I'm working on this album. But at the same time, I also did other. music too. Like, it was like we would do sessions and we were like, is this for the musical or is this just for me? So I had like, I had a bunch of songs that were, you know, that I was literally doing on Zoom and then putting the vocals in myself and had these demos that were pretty shitty because, you know, I was rudimentary doing it, but we had ideas. And actually, there was one idea that happened during that time with Brandon Colbyne and Alexander Lewis that made it to this album. That's cool. So that's like the one

that was on the shelf that I was like, we got to put this back. Do you do you have a good catalog in your head of your demos that haven't come out but you still like? Are there still songs that are sitting there that are special? Maybe a few. I mean, I definitely think when we were finishing this album, I went back as we kind of had

like the majority of it, I did go back through and sent a bunch to Jess and I was like, or anything is good? And we did say like, that real love songs got something. That's got something to it. Yeah. Yeah. And there were, and the other was with Pete during that time, like sort of after we, after the shutdown was over and we could kind of start working again, I did some sessions with Pete Knappie, and there's two or three songs that came from that.

In addition to the one that I recorded for his band with Samantha Ronson, that were actually the things that planted the seed for the sound of this album, because he and I got in there, and we did one with like Upsal, she did one of the songs. with us and it was like really alternative really kind of grimy kind of everything was sort of like there was like acid house influence and like everything was sort of like distressed and kind of noisy and I had never really made music like that that type of approach before that was that dirty sounding and I was really into it yeah I was like this is cool this is like 90s shit it really fits yeah and so when it came time to do this album I had those songs as reference Like these are some songs I think could make this project.

And that was the jump off. And so when we started figuring out, we had like a bunch of different songs sort of in the works. And I said, you know, should we have like an executive producer? And everybody was like, yeah, that would be good. I was like, what about Pete? And that that's the A&R role that you were saying that would be really helpful to have, you know, to have that.

And Jess was like, yeah, an executive producer is going to help connect all these. And I said, what about Pete? And she was like, yeah, that would be cool. And I just knew he could like, I knew that he could get the sound that I was going for, you know. And it's funny because as the process went on, there were some songs we had that their original demo form were more traditional, like traditional rock songs, for example. Like, E.U Alive sounded a lot more sort of classic. And there was a few of them that fell into that category. And I brought them to Pete.

and I was like, okay, yeah, do you see me now? It was like very much like it sounded like a 70s rock song or 80s. And I brought them to Pete. I'm like, okay, Pete, let's like do our thing with this. Like, how do we take this and make it sound like it was produced by like, you know, nine inch nails meets, you know, Bjork meets massive attack meets, you know, all these like 90s kind of touch points. And he totally got it.

He totally knew what to do. It feels like that. This is a good time to ask the, uh, our Patreon question from, Tilda says, you've constantly evolved throughout your career. Has there ever been a moment where you question your artistic identity? If so, what helped you reconnect with yourself as an artist again? It feels like this is sort of what you're... It was getting out there and just writing.

And maybe my management team at the time kind of felt that way. They were like, you need to just get out there and write so that you can figure out what you want to make. And I think that was true. I did some set during that time, I did sessions with Justin Trans. and his, what was the band he had, semi-precious weapons. I worked with them, like, as a group, which was really fun. It was really fun.

We did a couple really cool songs. Here's my Justin Traynor Anitale, which I've talked about a bunch and I'm friends with Justin, but we were in the same theater school when we were seven years old. Really? We grew up in, like, neighboring schools, and then, like, or neighboring areas. Yeah.

We're the exact same age. And we ended up in the same theater, Apple Tree Theater. Every time in Midland Park, I take a picture. of it in Senator. So it's kind of fun to be like these theater kids in Chicago, right? To go from there to like,

we end up in bands and we end up signed to the same publisher and then we end up in these kinds of conversations and it's kind of... Small world. Very small world. Let's go to some rapid fire.

Sure. What's the difference between identity and brand to you? Well, I think nowadays, I think it's kind of one in the same. I mean, I think for an artist, I think the identity has become

in some cases, more of the deciding factor of your success than the talent in a lot of cases. I mean, I think audiences tend to sort of want to, they want you to be their, they want to imagine that you're their friend, you know, that there's somebody, or that you're somebody that they identify with or somebody that they would want to date, you know, it's like it's, it's the personalities become sort of, it seems like it precedes the skill at this point. So I think the brand often is the individual. It's the person. Tell me about paying songwriters. What do you want to know? I don't know. I mean, like, you know, songwriters are, you were super involved in the

songwriting community. Like, you're part of the thing. So tell me about how you take care of songwriters that you work with. I mean, I think that was something that Jess and I talked about early. It was just like, I am fully aware of the fact that songwriters get the short end of the stick right now. And many are incredibly talented with cuts that do well. And they're still like having second and third jobs and they're not getting paid correctly. And it breaks my heart.

It's terrible. It's stupid. Like, why are, first of all, why isn't there a union? That would probably help. But that's a big ask. I'll explain that later. But keep going. I mean, the music industry in general, the thing that kills me is that like, it's like one of the only industry.

where there's not unions and protections. You know, in theater, there's tons of protections for actors and the crew and all this thing. In the film industry and TV, obviously, there's tons of union activity to protect people, to advocate for people so they get paid correctly. Why don't we have that in the music industry? There's a musicians union for, like, live players or, like, orchestra players, but that's it. I mean, there's, we can't unionize because we're independent conduct. I get why. We're not, we're not, you know, songwriters were looking out for this potential bill in California that would allow Uber drivers to unionize. Right.

Because if we. Because they're independent contractors. They're independent contractors. But I guess they're all working for Uber. So it's sort of like that's the, yeah. So that's the, you know, we, we own all of our, in theory, we own our copyrights. So we could unionize, but then we're selling our copyrights. And I don't think songwriters really want that. Yeah, I think there's pitfalls to that, yeah, obviously. Look, my plug there is, you know, obviously I'm the co-chair of the songwriter composer when you're a songwriter, join the Grammys.

And when you do, click on that button that you identify as a songwriter and composer. Yeah. And you should join songwriters of North America and Sona and NRA. SAI if you want to join trade organizations that can actually help. You know, that's something Justin and I are very involved in Sona. I'm on the board for that. There are organizations that help songwriters, but we need artists like you who talk about it. Yeah.

Because I think a lot of artists are afraid to talk about it. Well, it's weird to me too because, you know, a lot of the people that I've worked with, it feels strange to me that you don't get paid as a songwriter to be in the room for your time. I mean, every other business is sort of like every other business model. It's like you get paid for your time in a hundred different occupations, you know, whether you build after. Whether you own it or not. Yeah. Or whether you or whether you, you know, you build them afterwards or you get paid up front or whatever the deal is.

Like, you get paid for your time. The fact that to do the songwriting hustle, you just have to sort of go on spec and sort of like, I mean, a lot of producers get paid, but songwriters don't. I don't get it. I don't get that either. And to be honest,

I think that songwriters will eventually end up with things like MasterPoints, and they'll get, you know, Ivers in London in the UK, has done a great job leading fees. But why do producers get paid? and not art writers. Because they don't own the master. They're not making the thing. They're not making the thing.

But the problem is this. As a songwriter, a lot of times I'm the one in the room is doing the vocal arranging. I'm playing guitar and piano and all the things on it. But if I'm a drum programmer, I get a point. But if I play guitar on it, I don't. It's so weird to me. That feels crazy. Yeah, it does not right.

And it feels crazy that songwriters don't. And as a producer of songs now, there are. songs, every song I do, I really advocate for my co-writers to get participation. We did that too. I mean, I just thought, you know. It's just classy, man. You didn't have to do that. And it's appreciated. I think I think it's fair. Like, it wasn't even like, wasn't meant to like make myself, you know, look or see a certain way. Yeah. Yeah. It's my job is to make sure people know that that's the kind of person you are. It isn't your job to do that. That's why you have publicists. Yay. But yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm, I was happy to do that. There are 74 publicists. here and it's really awkward.

And they're all dressed the exact same. It's so weird, guys. Okay, you have the world's best stage presence. Did you have to work at that? I don't know if I worked at it.

I think it just kind of came from being a theater kid, really. Like, just being on, you know? And also, like, I was saying, all that frenetic energy, it's like it has to go somewhere. So, like, I, you know, was very, very active performer, you know, like moving around, looking at the audience, like, you know, it's like kind of, you know, showboating a little bit in moments. If I go back to like some of the queen tours, it's like there were moments on in those sets where it was more serious and a little more like stoic.

But then there were songs that were a bit more playful and campy and and fun where I, I vamped it up. Like, I gave it some theatricality, you know. Is there a text chain of all the American Idol rock stars? No. Not that I'm on anyway. I feel like there's like a, hey, look at this picture of my dog from like you to carry underwood. I don't know. I hadn't spoken to Chris Allen in a very long time.

And then randomly last year, we had like a fun little text exchange, you know, just like catching up just like, how have you been? It was really nice to chat with him. And then also there was a, there was one contestant on the show, Matt Gerard was his name. Every once in a while I get like random text from him. Like he really tried to like keep the group, the family.

It was really sweet. It's really sweet. But I've lost touch. And then Allison I've stayed in touch with for my season. Yeah. Also had a Max Martin song. Yeah, she did. And we toured to get.

She was my opening act on my first tour. That's cool. And then she, she's like moved into she sings backgrounds for everybody she's always on tv she's always she works with ricky minor a lot she's so talented and so lovely what's the hardest part of your career the hardest part yeah hmm it's a big question i don't know i think i think the first couple years were weird like i was like i didn't really you know it happened really fast you're you know Fame is a funny little thing.

It's strange to adjust to. I mean, luckily, I was a little older. I can't imagine going into it as a teenager. But it isn't, it's an adjustment. Like, your anonymities sort of compromised. Do you have to, like, there's, it's, it is a sort of sacrifice in certain ways. But it's also, like, an incredible, you know, win. So it's both.

And just sort of reckoning with that and trying to figure out the balance and trying to compartmentalize, like, my needs and my personal life with, like, a public thing. That was a little tricky. Dating was weird adjustment with that. Because you were famous? Yeah. And busy, you know. Right.

But, like, that's still a weird thing. And I'm not even that famous. Imagine the people. I can't imagine, like, the A-list celebrities that are, like, you know, that have, like, you know, 40 million followers, 100 million followers. I can't imagine what that's like. That's crazy. Do you want to be more famous? No, necessarily, no.

Do I want a little more success? Sure. What is success? More people listening to the music, more opportunities, you know? But I am happy. Like, you know, like with this album, like, I'm getting a lot of great responses. And, you know, like with the Velvet album, it was, you know, like we said, the COVID kind of washed it up. But you know what? It was the best reviews I've ever gotten.

So that, like, knowing that the work is good, that, like, what I created is appreciated and respected, that's, that's, that's, that's, winning for me. It really is. Like, that feels really good. You know, and then you would hope that that word would get around and more people would listen to it, you know, because like everybody else, we got to pay the bills. You know, I got to, I got to pay rent, you know, and that, you know, the more people that listen, the more opportunities you have, the more tickets you can sell, obviously, that would be great. It's so interesting because, you know, you, you've built this career that's super enviable, enviable. You know, you get to, you get to perform with maybe the best rock band of all time. You get to

record songs in the best writers of all time. You become a great writer who then now can write with the best writers of all time. You're releasing six albums as an artist. And, you know, it seems like the opportunities are endless. And it's a weird thing when you're, you know, it's not my life. It's your life. One of my fatal flaws is that I have a tendency

to sort of nitpick the negative side of things. Like I'll, you know, zero in on what something isn't. And sometimes what I need to do is go, okay, but what is it? You know? And that's human, man. Yeah, and that's something that I'm always working on. Gratitude is hard. And also, like, being able to look in the mirror

and recognize what your struggles are and your challenges are is a big first step. And a lot of this album sort of centers around that. It centers around me being able to go, okay, you're not perfect, obviously. And I'm not trying to communicate this idealized superhero person. It's like, no, I have flaws, you know. I have things that I fuck up on.

I have things that I need to work on. I have things that I feel stupid about or guilty about or, you know, ashamed about, you know. And I put that into these songs. It's the first time I think I'm showing like the uglier side of who I am, you know, which I think is, you know, that feels really liberating. Super cathartic. Yeah. You know, and that's why, again, Adam, first name base is like, you get you to see the good, the bad and the ugly here, you know.

Well, I appreciate you doing this podcast. Again, as I said, you know, your journey really has coincided because, you know, I didn't, I started co-writing in 2007-9 era where I was like, I've been in bands and I'm in L.A. The same time you are and you're seeing some of these. Those were good years, weren't they? Yeah, they are. It's a different world. It was a different time and it was very fun. LA had a lot of money.

The parties were wide. Yeah. This was hard to explain to people when you'd have these. I had no money for a few of these years where I could drink free with great food. And because you're just, there would be four parties in a night that are red carpet events. You don't even have to be a star. You just maybe have to know a couple people. Just know the right people.

But you're getting in these places. and it's like, we can talk about the friends that we have in common later. Yeah, yeah. Because I'm sure we, I'm starting to figure out who some of those people are. But like, you know the one person that does the door for SBE and you're set.

It's just a weird thing. And you go and there's Coldplay playing a Nokia show or something, like some party that's, that's, you know. It was hide for me. Remember hide? Yeah, of course. That was the party to go. That was the club to get into.

It was hard to get into. I somehow met the right people and could get in. And it was like everybody was in there. And it was the tiny little room. And DJ AM was killing it, like doing all these amazing mashups live. I mean, it was like a different time. Yeah, we're just trying to Travis Barker about that.

It's like those are those events. And you can't, yeah. L.A. was a different. I also think, you know, this is also people, maybe people had an iPhone. And if they did. Pre-social media. Yeah, man. Social media has been amazing in some ways, but it's also like kind of killed some things, you know.

It's like... One of my best friends has a bar, and it talks about how, you know, a lot of the people, they'll meet on some app, and then they'll go to this bar, and then they'll drink, you know, water or something because they've already met. You know?

Like, it's not like when we're going to those clubs and you're like, it's a different era. Well, and I was talking to some of the last night about this, and it was like a big aha moment that I hadn't really considered. I think part of what's taken all the nightlife, like it's dialed down the nightlife, LA is GLP ones. Oh, that's funny.

Ozympic and Wagovi because you don't really want to drink that much on it. You don't really, you can't get a buzz. You're like kind of, kind of makes you a little blazay about life a little bit. Like you're skinny, but you're kind of like, and I've been on one for three years. I can, I can attest that like, I'm like, sometimes I'm like, do I want to go out? Like, you're just not, you're like, I'm good. I'm good. I'm skinny.

I got the Jomo. I'm like the joy of missing out's real. The joy of my saying out. But I literally think that's what's fucking with the nightlife in L.A. Because I think a lot of people are on those GOP-1. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Think about it for a minute out there, y'all.

Like, who's on a GOP-1? Do you go out as much as you used to? You don't, do you? Yeah. You don't drink as much as you used to. You don't. You don't want to go to a restaurant. You're not hungry.

I mean, we always provide donuts. Yeah. And I can tell the GOP-1s have gotten. I didn't even look at that Eclare over there. No. The one with my name on it. I didn't even see it. I hand carved it.

I thank you so much for doing this, man. I really appreciate it. There you go. That's your episode.