And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 258: Suki Waterhouse on Loveland, Motherhood, and Finding Her People

Episode Date: July 28, 2026

Today's guest is a songwriter four albums deep, with a song that's been picking up new listeners for nine years and Mick Fleetwood playing on her latest record. But her real story isn't any of that.From weekend stage camps in West London to opening Wembley for Taylor Swift five months after giving birth, she spent a decade releasing roughly one song a year into near silence. What kept her going wasn't a plan — it was a pair of collaborators who got nothing back for years and got up and made something every day anyway.This is an honest conversation about what a long stretch of nobody listening actually feels like, and what happens when the proof finally shows up on a timeline you didn't choose.And The Writer Is... Suki Waterhouse!Hit subscribe and turn on notifications. Every week, we go deep with the most interesting creatives in music.Follow us on socials: @andthewriterisA special thank you to our sponsors for making these conversations possible.Our lead sponsor, NMPA — the National Music Publishers' Association. Your support means the world to us.And @splice — the best sample library on the market. Period.They've developed a Sounds plugin that allows creators to actually get paid for derivatively generated work from their art, and they have paid out $100M+ to artists already since inception. Chapters:0:00 Intro0:46 How's being a parent and doing music?1:18 "Being a parent is only hard for good parents"2:49 "The girl with the guitar" — how her daughter describes her job4:30 Test-driving album demos on a toddler in her "no" phase12:44 Somewhere Over the Rainbow — and losing to the girl who sang All Saints14:38 The voice teacher who told her she was too skinny to sing15:58 "I was angry. I had this huge fire in me."16:42 The friend group that turned on her: "fuck this school, fuck these people"26:45 "You walk through open doors" — model, actor, musician28:56 "Brutally," 2016, and ten years of making things nobody heard31:01 Advice to a young female artist: learn to produce, even basically32:56 "I went hunting for my fucking tribe. And I found them."35:54 Amy Winehouse at the pub, The Libertines, and a London scene that's gone38:12 Backstage at a Jake Bugg show — meeting Natalie and Jules at eighteen39:23 "They got zero back for years and years and years"42:45 Extreme ADHD, a giant sitar, and a fight over a song46:26 December 7th: flying to London for a song that didn't exist yet47:16 The pact: "if we're not writing something brilliant, we're not carrying it on"47:28 The worst audition of her life, in the dark48:09 A Wurlitzer, a Mellotron, and the song that opens the album1:01:39 "Good Looking" — top ten on TikTok, written nine years ago1:05:53 Covid, Daisy Jones, and deciding to just make the record1:06:32 Every label said no except Sub Pop1:08:40 "It's nothing about what happens in the first week"1:10:16 "Dangerous Woman" and a song that gains meaning over time1:11:38 Daisy Jones: "my name wasn't on the list and I was fucking pissed"1:16:24 "You're more envious of the check than the song"1:26:14 What makes a good song — Beck, Elliott Smith, and roughness1:29:26 Red Rocks with no ear monitors: "I was in insane debt"1:32:04 Opening for Taylor Swift at Wembley1:34:17 Hayley Williams: "this one's for Mr. Waterhouse"1:37:02 A baby in March, a record in September1:39:44 "When everyone goes a bit red — that's when you keep it in the song"1:40:35 What to play driving at night, heartbroken, walking through LondonCredits:Hosted by Ross GolanProduced by Joe London & Jad Saad Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to Anne the Writer is. I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's episode is starring a star, who's gone from Rising Star to Shooting Star in less than a decade. She writes dreamy, devastatingly beautiful music, because her art is an amalgamation of the fashion runways and film sets and festival stages. She's graced her whole career. She's one of indie pop's most captivating voices, and she's here to share her voice with us today and the writer is Suki Waterhouse. Hi. Hi. That was hilarious introduction.

Well, we were talking about being parents and being in music. That's how we started the day. Yeah, we were weeping. How's being a parent and doing music? It's, uh, yeah, it's, it's intense, isn't it? It's so intense. Why do you find it intense? Um, why do I find it intense? Because, um, I feel like, I, because I, I'm plugged in to everything that's happening. And I don't know, that kind of pull to be there like all the time. Yeah, there's like this, this quote that kills me with it, which is, you know, being a parent is only hard for good parents.

then yeah that's actually a really sweet thing that's a nice way to look at it yeah exactly i mean it's it's yeah i want to be around all the time it's like but then but then at the same time at the same time like obviously we like we care about what we do so much and i know that it wouldn't be it wouldn't be feasible for like suki the human to not do anything else for me like personally, you know what I mean? Totally. Like for me as like the human I am, like I have to, you know, I have to work and I have to like make music. And I know that like, and I know that she's going to be proud of me and be like my mom's fucking cool.

And like she's got a whole album of photos of like her on like two tours. And like I do think that I can do both. I really do and I do think I can be a great parent and and do what I do. But it's just like the, yeah, like the you as the parent, the you as the musician, and then, like, you, yeah, the, sorry, what am I trying to say. I'm trying to say, like, do, I think I can do both, but like, it's just, it's just, like, hard for, like, you as the person. Like, you're kind of just, like, you're quite afraid. Does she see you as different people? Can she differentiate this is mom the mom and this is mom the rock star? She, like, knows what I do now. She, like, points out in a storybook we were looking at Joel. the other day and she was like that's um that like that's your job like the the girl with the guitar and and like i'll be like you know at the moment i'm like practicing for tour so she's like she she watches

me like play guitar and she um like she'll say like mommy songs like i'll show her like my music videos and stuff and so it's cool she does like have some idea and then i mean a lot of the time like today it's like i have hair and makeup over and uh like you know her so she's pretty involved in that She loves like sitting on my lap and, you know, she likes looking at the nail colors and all of that stuff. So she, yeah, she's involved and there's always people around and like, and I think, and so she's like very social and fun. But it's crazy. I mean, I do this and then I've got like, she's on FaceTime to her dad who today is like covered in blood with like huge black circles around his eyes. And I'm like, hi.

Like, it's fine. And we're just like, it's fine. And do you know what? She really doesn't actually seem to notice. Yeah. She notices the big, she notices, she knows, she calls him like Daddy Batman now because he's always dressed up like that for like the next seven months, like whenever he's on FaceTime.

Yeah, that's a strange character to have as your parent. I know, but it's fine, right? Every kid thinks their parents are super, or is a superhero, but that becomes more obvious when they are dressed as one. Is there a song that she requests most? No, we haven't got, she's not quite, she hasn't quite got the recall of the songs yet. But I did, obviously, when I was making my album, I would like test drive them on her, you know. Do she approve of all of them or were there some where she's like, I don't like that one next?

I'm trying to, yeah, no, there's stuff, you know, she's in like a no phase at the moment. So sometimes she can just hit me with like a no. I don't like that. And I'll be like, oh. me like, damn it. You try to explain. You're like, but this pre-course is incredible. Yeah, but I did test quite a lot.

I did test them on her and like it did, but definitely like, um, influenced me if she, if she like, you know, had a little, uh, dance going. We were driving to Malibu yesterday and my, my son asked to hear a song called Stay Positive that I did, um, uh, in the wrong man. And we listened to it. And when we got to the playground that's up there, my daughter just kept singing it throughout running around. And I was like, because I never imposed my song.

Like, I don't want my kids to, like, think of it in that way. Where I'm, it's one thing when they asked to hear it. It's another thing to, like, play it in that way. And they, and the fact that she likes the song enough to sing it by herself, It really felt like I, like, achieved something. They listen to songs when I'm working on a project and I'm, like, in it and they hear all the demos and they hear the versions of it.

Yeah. But I don't know. I'm, like, I'm nervous to... I'm nervous to... I'd rather them hear, like, you know, Elton John and, you know, whatever, Billy Joel or whatever. And get into that, then listen to the music I write. And yet, on the other hand,

they've heard... They've heard everything I've done. Of course. They hear everything. They see everything. Like, yeah, I'm kind of, I don't know. I'm kind of just like show them everything. Show her everything.

What was your childhood like? With music or just like what was my childhood? Oh, but both. Okay, so you were born. Yes. Successfully. Yeah, I was born success. I was actually born with the, let's go right back.

I was born with the umbilical cord around my neck. So it was like a fairly stressful birth. it was fine. We made it out. I was born in London. I was born in Chiswick. Do you know Chiswick? How do you know that about the umbilical cord? Well, because it's like a, you know, it's like a talking point of the birth. Yeah. Do you know a lot of details about, does your mom, like their family my dad gave me quite a lot of details. So like, too many details actually. Yeah. I caught both my kids. This is way too much information. But I caught, I caught both my kids. You what? You caught them. Like caught them. And so like, I feel.

like I was like, yeah. Now I'm, of course, they're going to, they're going to hear all those stories. Right. But that's so beautiful.

That's a wonderful thing to happen. There was an artist who, like, who told me, is like that he did that. And I felt like, I couldn't be challenged in that way and not do it also.

And then I did, because he was like, it's a beautiful thing. And then you do it. But like, everyone's like, why do you do it? It was a stunning.

It's gorgeous. It's gorgeous. Yeah. It was excellent. I mean, that's happening. Yeah. Hey,

guys, have you ever wanted to get further in the world of And the writer is? Have you ever wanted to sit in that seat across from me? Well, guess what? You can now join the conversation. That's right, because we just launched our Patreon. You'll get access to our monthly Zoom hangs where we'll listen to demos, give feedback. You can hang with us directly, and we can hang with you too.

Look, occasionally we'll bring on some guests that will chat with our community. And maybe most importantly to me, you're going to have access to our 200 archives. audio episodes. That's episodes with Charlie XXX and Sabrina Carpenter and Lynn Manuel Miranda and Shania Twain and Babyface so much. So many great interviews that you can get amazing insight

and knowledge from. So come and check it out in the description below. There's a link for you to join us on Patreon. So you had an umbilical cord. Yeah, I had an umbilical cord. I was born in, uh, born in Chiswick. My mom, Elizabeth.

and my dad, so they met in a hospital. My dad was a kind of young surgeon. My mom, a nurse, a cancer nurse. And they met over, my mom says they met over a patient with a decaying buttock. My dad has a completely different story that she like came down the hallway and like took his breath away. But so they, yeah, they kind of, they were like young doctors and nurses living in West London. and I came along pretty quickly

and then I've got another sister who's two years younger than me, I'm who's an actress and a director. She just directed like, she directs like music videos for me too. Very cool. Amazing. I like love my siblings so much.

And then I've got, then they had twins, a boy and a girl, right? Quite a lot later actually. Like they're like seven years younger than me. So I got like little brothers and sisters that I grew up with it. I kind of felt like I raised

with them, you know, because I was like seven or eight by that time. So different than older sister. Yeah. In that way. Yeah. What was the, I mean, that doesn't seem like a hot bed of art when you have two parents that are in medicine. No, but like, well, I think my, I think they are, they kind of, they actually are in their

ways. Like, my dad is, um, my mom's like kind of, my mom's like, my mom sort of like is a very, like, zany, artistic person. And like a very emotionally, she's trained in psychology too. She's incredibly like emotionally aware. She's sort of the person that like my friends would tell all their secrets too. And I would actually get kind of like jealous when I was a kid because my like she would like have all the secrets. Because everyone, she was like incredibly like entrusted, warm person like.

Like yeah, just like crazily giving and kind of like, you know, the center of the house. household, like, whilst, yeah, whilst kind of, um, she's, like, always volunteering. She's, she's, she's that person. She, like, cares, cares a lot about, um, her, like, community. And I think, like, everything, everything, like, nice and caring and warm about me is, is, like, from her. And my dad is, my dad's, uh, a doctor and, um, he's, like, very logical. He's incredibly ambitious. He's, like, I always described him as like yeah he's like the figure that was always doing a lot

like reading so many books a week like doing a Latin A level and like training in like Greek studies like my dad's like a crazy learner learning different languages speaks French speaks Spanish well that explains the language you use as a lyricist or in the songs that you write

are, it's not, um, it's just not passive. It's really colloquially as I can't say it, complicated in a lot of ways. Like, they're really colorful words and so I'm sure that having, maybe that comes, yeah, maybe that, maybe that does come from my dad. Sometimes I've, yeah, he, he, yeah, he's like written, um, yeah, he's like written me poetry before and, um, he's just, yeah, he's just written a book that's going to be coming out. And that's cool. I know, it's crazy. He's like written a whole fiction book. So he's like an ambitious freak. And he would call himself as an artist

because he's like a, he's a craniofacial and plastic surgeon. So he would, he would call himself an artist. Absolutely. Yeah. When did people recognize you could sing? I don't.

Well, actually, it's, yeah, it's funny. Because when I was, when I was, I actually always think I was like a really good singer when I was like younger and then I and then like I think I started like when I was when I was like I would do these um you know I was in like these weekend uh like stage camps and do it doing like plays and um I was like the kid that was you know it's getting up and like singing somewhere over the rainbow and and I remember being like good and like having a really powerful strong voice and I was like training a lot and you know and summer's doing it.

these like pop star academy things and entering into competitions and doing like I remember doing like I think I did like a I have done like an Etta James song and I lost I remember losing out to the girl that did for All Saints you know a few questions that I need to know it's so British

yeah and I know it was like and yeah I remember yeah I definitely remember being around a lot of kids that were there was like a kid that I was friends with that did le Miserables. And I remember being so mad that she got that job and like, you know, it was so weird. We talked about theater before and how complicated it is to be a professional actor on stage. And here your childhood is a bit of doing musical theater first.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, yeah. I was doing that. I was doing like the, I remember I was like Dorothy and the Oz. But it was kind of like it was when I was in. I think everything changed for me quite a lot when I went to like my secondary school, which was when you were like 11. And that was like a co-ed school with boys and stuff.

So I was quite like, I was quite like, I was like kind of the naughtier kid in a very like all girls, very like buttoned up. Everyone was like incredibly well behaved. And like I was doing my singing training all the time with like this like lady called Lucy Delafie. Fons who would like tell me that I needed to like, she would always be like, she would always be like telling me that I had to like gain weight to be a good singer and I was like too skinny to be a good singer. She was a big like opera singer and and she was and yeah it was funny. I remember and then I remember like and then like as I went to secondary school um I like you know yeah I got like it was

like co-ed and um I just remember like all of that kind of very that that kind of structure through those years falling away um i like you know like i started just were you rebelling it all went to shit yeah yeah what did your parents think of that um i think no i think they were like there was some really different yeah there was some like difficult difficult years but i was like i don't yeah i was quite they did have three younger children and it and it like all i think now it's like seems it's like it's like easy to sort of, like now they obviously, now it's like all good. And it's like a long time ago, but at the time, it definitely, it definitely wasn't. I mean, you're, you said your younger sister,

not the twins, but younger sister is a couple years younger. Two years younger. Did she follow you in your footsteps of, of rebellion? Or was she? No, I was like the work. I was definitely like, I was the most. I was like, I had this, I think I just had this, I was like angry and I had like a big fire in me and and I was like, were you angry yeah. I was like an angry, angry teenager, you know. I like suddenly just hated. It's being a you know, I hate, I suddenly like hated

my parents. Yeah, everything, you know, it was, it's like that thing where I'm like, I am getting out of like, I don't want to be, I don't want to have anyone be like, beholden to them. I want to go and like have my own life. And I just had this, yeah, this like huge

fire in me. And then I kind of had, I remember like sort of things at school, like having like a sort of a thing with another girl at school that I would like, like, wanted to be friends with. And then she like, it sounds so ridiculous. But then she like kind of like stole the guy that I was going out with. And then all of the, all of the whole friend group then became, you know, friends with all of them. So then I was just sort of like, isolated. And I just remember being like, fuck this. Fuck this school. Fuck these people. And that was like the end. That was like when I was a bit older sort of doing GCSEs.

But it was great. It was all, it was all good at the end of the day because I think it was that it made me go like, it made me like look outside of my school and it just like, I kind of was onwards and and out of it. I still have a couple of friends from school. Like I, you know, but, but it was, there was some like kind of, there was an isolation and a kind of, and I kind of fuck this. I think that's the most motivated.

I'm so much older than I was at that point, but I had a similar high school experience, and I feel like I'm still, there's still a part of me that remembers the shit I went through, and I still, and maybe it's extreme in my head. I don't know if it was actually as bad as I thought it was, but I felt so motivated to prove all those people. wrong and it's still the strange driving force that it's hard to get rid of.

So you think that's probably like all of us that sort of doing this? Yeah. Especially now when you look at what two and a half years, how fast that goes by. Like with our kids? Yeah. Yeah, I know. So like, you know, when you're talking to somebody who's in high school and it's so heavy for them and you're like, well, that's four years, man.

It'll go by like that, you know. And but when you're in high school, that four years lasts forever. And it's a weird thing when it motivates you to move onward. Yeah, and it's such a pivotal moment. And like every month and person that you meet in those years and like getting out into the world and like becoming a grown up and like going through girlhood. Everything that happens to is like is huge, isn't it? One of my best friends said to me a couple years ago was like, hey, do you want to go have?

lunch with my priest. He's in town, my childhood priest. And I was like, I've never been to lunch of the priest. Why not? Let's see what happens. So this isn't your priest? This is your friend's priest. Yeah. I don't have a priest. And I went to this lunch. And by the way, he doesn't really either. It's his childhood priest. And he's a really successful actor. And he also has this, like, need to prove people from his childhood that, you know, prove them wrong or whatever it is. And that became the crux of this conversation and the priest was like yeah but you have to give these people some credit for your success because you wouldn't be there if it wasn't for that motivation and some of the peace comes from thanking those people yeah right and also like we're all team we're like we're like

kids can you thank that that girl who you want me to thank could could you do that no could i'm I'm like, we were literally all kids. And like no one's, yeah. It's like I don't, I don't actually, like, I hope. I'm not actually, you know, grudging so hard. Like on kids. Like, no. Yeah, no, it's, that's what I mean.

It's all part of the story. One of my favorite songs by Arthur Godfrey. What is called all part? It's all part of the story. And it's weird. I think it's actually about, something to do with the priest. I remember, like something bad with the priest.

But that song, I always like love that song because it kind of taught, it's, yeah, it's all part of the story. It's like, I always think it's like all part of the, the mosaic and the masterpiece of your life. Did you write poetry through high school? Did you write music? You know, here you were singing when you were younger doing somewhere over the rainbow and Edda James and whatnot.

And then, you know, does it, when you rebecky, Was it putting music away or was music a part of your secondary school? Well, I think when I was a, I remember, well, I remember, I think it started with, it started with writing things, like journaling a lot. And sometimes those journals, I remember like those journals getting found. Who was it? It was like a friend of mine maybe or like my parents finding it. and I was very dramatic.

I remember being incredibly dramatic in the journals. And like, yeah, I was really dramatic. If I got into like a big disagreement with my parent, but this is like when I'm like 10 or 11, I'd be like, here's my will. You know, like I was that. Yeah, I was super generous. It's so dramatic. Yeah.

But then I remember like being kind of like I remember being like 11 or 12 and there were these girls that were older than me and they had like composed their own song for this like school showcase and I remember the I remember like exactly how the song goes and how does it go? It was like I sat as I cried

empty bottle of wine because still you're not mine and I cried and I was just like oh my gosh this is the coolest thing because they used to have this like there was like this white like pearly lip shine that they were all wearing when they were older.

Like at this point in London, like all the girls were like putting like concealer on their lips. And it was a kind of, this like beigey look that everyone had. But this girl, her name was minty and she had this, yeah, she had this like pearly nivier lip stuff. And she would, and she was like just a rock god to me,

like the coolest girl. And I remember once she like shoved her backpack into me. and like she was she was fierce and like I think she was just like get out of my way and like I'm like I slammed into that and I was still like it's the best thing that out. It's so great. She was just amazing and she was like my first like yeah like female like rock hero and she performed this song and I was and that had like a huge impact on me and I was like wow. So I think then I started trying to like I think I was basically doing like

rip-off songs of that song, you know, like kind of in my diary and like doing, you know, I knew like a couple of chords and like started, yeah, started writing with a guitar teacher. I had like a very funny guitar teacher. Why? What made them funny? He had like, I wonder if his stuff was, I'm not going to say his name, I don't know, He had a lot of, like, he was an artist, too. A lot of, like, very long songs on YouTube that were kind of, like, made, yeah, made up songs about very, like, literal things of his life.

He probably would have done really well on, like, TikTok and, like, we're in this moment, you know. They were, like, funny kind of sketch songs. Yeah. Yeah. So at what point do you? There's so much to discard. There's so many things. At what point did you play a song for, you know, your parents or your sister,

where you're like, this is one of those songs I'm writing in my diary and I'm working on this with a guitar teacher. I wouldn't have been showing them to my family. Did you show them to anybody? No, I can't. Are there recordings of you doing any of these? The first song that I have recorded, there's so much stuff on my on my um I have so much music that and like different styles as well that I was

kind of experimenting for years before before I ever released anything but there was like a guy that I'd met because this is like so you know it's so before I ever had access to like a producer that had done anything you know anyone like I would be working with now so I would like find I was going out a lot when I was really young. I would find, actually, I know who. Yeah, no, actually there was a guy. There's a guy who's actually a musician now. His name's Ben Kahn, have you ever heard of him?

I haven't. He's really amazing musician. Shut up, Ben. Yeah, he's incredible. He's a project out. It's amazing. But he went to my school and we used to record, we used to record things together.

And another boy that there were two guys in my class that I remember. But I don't have a recording of that. The first thing I have that's on the internet that I think I'd like been DMing with, I think I'd like DM'd like DM'd with like a fan or like someone and or maybe put it up on YouTube and then someone else had put it up on YouTube with like a bunch of photos. I mean it's still on the internet. It's a song called Stoned. And that was like maybe 2006 or something.

How does it go? I can't remember right now that's completely gone it's like my mom's favorite song yeah I'm gonna have to look it up yeah that's fine yeah it's completely gone yeah cut to the song

it's actually cool I like yeah I like it when you're in secondary school you start working in modeling and some other stuff too right yeah so that was yeah that was kind of like I feel like as an artist you get you walk through open door

whatever they may be, you know, if it's being a model, if it's being, you know, an actor, if it's being a musician, you just kind of walk through open doors. So sure. And as a part of that, people, you know, people are as, are who they are the day you meet them. So I think a lot of times then if somebody sees you as, oh, this girl plays guitar, she's a guitarist, and she's a model, she's a model. And it's like, then you're kind of in these roles that the world kind of imposes. Yeah.

Yeah. I didn't really, like, know, I didn't have, like, it's like what you're around and what you know and, like, being able to, like, see, like, the opportunity at that moment, like, wasn't, like, I hadn't met anyone yet that would, I didn't have, like, quite, I was, like, working on music all the time but I didn't like quite have I mean I actually I like the ins that I had I'd kind of created myself and like the like what I could do at that point that was like available to me was just like yeah like make a bunch of songs some of like a lot of bad songs like slowly start finding ones that I that I liked more and more and that would be with like people I would

meet out and anyone you know I lived kind of close to London so I I had, and I was like, yeah, all the time. Were you trying to release these songs? Were you putting them on SoundCloud? Like, what point do you start saying, okay, these songs that I'm making on the side, I'm going to start, I'm going to send these out. Like, what's the first time somebody outside of you and the person you're writing? Here's a song.

I would, no, I didn't, I didn't, like, release things too much, but I would, I, like, had, yeah, I had a bunch of songs. So I think, like, that stone song, but I never, like, release. that on DSPs. I think the first time I released something, the first time I ever got to the point where I really loved a song and I'd been like sort of, I've been, yeah, making so many things for such a time. The first time I really liked a song and had that feeling of like, like, I've finally found something that I, you know, love enough to put out was a song called Brutely. And that was, yeah, and that was like 2016, I put that out.

That's a big, that's nine years after, or 10 years after 2006 when you're writing with some people that are like friends of yours. That's a long time to develop one's sound. You were saying how you kind of tried a bunch of things. What were the different kinds of songs that you would write? Like how far away from the suki that we know? So far. Like what? Like I was at the mercy of who I'm at the mercy of who I'm in the room with. So like I would have. I would have, yeah, I had this like super like dance pop stuff. Like even the first, actually the song Devil I know that I put on my first record, I reproduced that. And it was like a very, it was a very different version when I'd written it. Actually, the original version was really cool. And it's actually great. And I kind of wish I did it with the guy.

Do you probably know him, John Hume? Yeah. Do you know John Hume? That was who I wrote that song with. And actually, that's a pretty, that's, that's a legit, he's a legit writer writer to be doing that before any songs had come out. Yeah, I found, I felt, I feel like I found, I found like, there would be, yeah, there would be, that I guess I got to L.A. at that point, gotten, got, got, I mean, this is like, that's a bit later around. Yeah, right. Yeah. So there is like, yeah, there's a long 10 years of, uh, of like getting here, meeting more people. There was like, for example, I remember. emailing Bell and Sebastian

and like you were saying I guess like having been doing fashion stuff like I guess I wasn't like completely like an completely unknown person so maybe that helped fair yeah but Bell and Sebastian

I went over and made a song with Stuart that I later released so I had I would always have loads of stuff when you're looking at developing as a young female artist in while doing all these other stuff, what's advice you'd give a young female artist who's walking into a room who doesn't know what they want to sound like yet?

I mean, the best advice, like, I didn't follow this. So can I give advice that I haven't done? I think that's probably the best kind of advice. Do you know what I mean? That means that you learned from not doing it. Well, if I could like, if I would go back, I would learn, I would probably just learn how to produce, like, at least in like a basic way, that would be great. I'm so bad with like, I, like, I've literally cried before trying to just figure out how it's like my, I really struggle with like the tentacle part of it and just. Yeah, and you're trying to articulate.

Music is that that expression of talking about music is like dancing about architecture. Yeah, or not even like, not even like knowing what I, I know what I like like like, I know what I like like like how I want things to sound. But I mean just like figuring out like make, be able to make fucking beats, be able to like record things. Like I've, you know, I'm like, and I'm still, that is like on me. I've still, to be honestly, I haven't tried. I haven't tried hard enough. So my advice would be like just figure that stuff. Like figure it out in a.

a basic way so that you will just like save a lot of time being able to you know come in with um as like fleshed out of as a demo as possible and like have as much of an idea and there's also like the other part of it which is and also i mean my like the the other the thing that i did do did think i did right is um like i just was uh i just like went i went like hunting for my people and like i went hunting for my fucking tribe and I found them and uh like I met um yeah like the like his name's Blumey he just he just produced the lily Alan record I'd known him since I was like 17 18 he was like the first person that one of the first people that ever worked with me where you know we've still still working together years and years later like absolutely adore him he was

such a um he's always been like such an encouraging like on honest person to work with. How did you guys connect initially? I think I met him at a party or something. NMPA is our lead sponsor yet again. What is the National Music Publishers Association? What do publishers have to do with songwriters anyway? Well, unlike artists who can be unsigned artists,

there is no such thing as an unsigned writer. You can be a self-published, a co-published or a published writer. Publishers only make money if songwriters make money. So NMPA goes and fights for you. They go to Congress, they go and support the community, they fight DSPs to get you paid more. That's what they do. They fight for you and they fight for this podcast. So thank you for fighting for songwriters NMPA.

Thank you for fighting for us too. Let me tell you about Splices Sounds plugin. It brings millions of royalty-free, high-quality samples right into your dog, making it easier to search, preview, and drag and drop sounds all over within your project in any DAWFL Studio Logic Pro, you know how it works. I've been testing out a new tool called variations that lets producers create new versions of any splice sample that adjusts structure, key, and BPM while preserving the sound's core characteristics.

That's because every sample in Splice's licensed catalog of more than 3 million is traceable to its original creator. The original sample creator is compensated each time their sound is used as a source and each time the variation is downloaded. This means that there are more opportunities to use the samples you already love and more ways for creators to get paid.

Variations is available to try now in Splice's Sounds plugin. Check it out. Thank you for sponsoring and the writer is. Yeah, it's always weird when it happens like that Because people are out there trying Well, also that's an era where I think It's easier to meet someone at a party London was an incredible scene

Like when I was going out really When I was going out like I was I started going out really young Like I was like I keep saying I'm repeating But yeah It was it was an amazing music scene It was like when I remember like

Amy Winehouse was on the You know hanging out of the pub And like it was like we would go to Camden and watch bands that would watch tiny shows of bands that would then get signed there was a band called Tribes that I remember like they were my favourite band on earth

and they was just like it was like so exciting and I was like really young and I was like following these bands like getting bigger and you know they had like Marina and the Diamonds was around at that point she like

so that was like so much like yeah the Libertines were huge It was just like such an exciting. It was so exciting. I remember, yeah, it was like, other bands, the Kasabian were like around at that time. And did everybody know each other? Yeah, and like even like, yeah, I remember like Liam Gallagher was around and it was great. I was like 18 and like, you know, sort of in this very, like in some really like fun circles of like nightlife that were.

What is London like now from your perspective? I don't know. I like don't know anymore. I'm like a loser now. I mean, you've been here for a long time today. I'm sure it's not. Now you're a mom who's. Yeah, it's still great.

Yeah, it's still great. I mean, I don't, yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't, like, yeah, it's still great. I'm staying in, um, I'm kind of like living in Camden right now, but yeah, I'm definitely not, um, as, like, plugged into going hell anymore. Yeah. But it was, yeah, the distant memory. You know, it was just, I just remember it being fun and, like, getting on the bus from, and, like, taking a 40-minute bus drive into London and, like, this whole world kind of opening up to me.

So, yeah, I definitely met, I definitely met in the early days a lot of people from just, like, yeah, being out. And that's still, you know, six years before, you know, before he brutally comes out. So you still have this, this time. of growth and travel and doing other stuff. And being in fashion as well. Yeah.

And that was, you know, that also kind of like broadened my world a lot. But I remember, you know, Jake Bug? Yeah, I remember going to a Jake Bug concert and I was really, really into an artist called Finley. I don't know if you've heard of Finley.

And she had a song called Your Sister and she was opening for Jake Bug. And I remember going backstage to like go and meet them with a friend of mine who knew Jake Bug and and that was when that was when I met Finley whose name is Natalie

Natalie Finley and then her boyfriend she just started going out with a guy called Jules Apollinar and they are still together and that was when I was like I think I was like 18 at that point like 18 and I went over to their apartment

in East London like a few days later and they I mean, they are my, like that, those are the people that, like, I really credit for, like, everything for me. Like, we still, yeah, I mean, Jules is on all your songs. Yeah. So. Yeah, he's on pretty, yeah, he's on, like. Or not all, but, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, but he's, you know, that, and it's both of them. It's, it's, it's, it's that couple that, like, it's that couple that, like, literally just went, like, come over. and we have we just made things everywhere we went to France and to his you know we went to his house in France we went to Paris we and they were the people that I go like wow they they got there was they got like zero back for years and years and years they are just like people that get up and make music every single day and only work on things that they fucking love and feel passionate about and they're like there to me like the most like credit all just fucking awesome human beings that I...

What is it about them that brings out the best in you? Um, which it, because they're just, like, I think, I think they're so removed from, I mean, like now, like now they're starting to work on like huge projects at the moment, like, massive, massive, massive. Um, but like they are just, like, jewels, both of them, they're kind of like relics. You know what I mean? Like, they're kind of, they've got the, they're kind of like, yeah, they're like slightly, uh, like that, yeah, it's, it's like nothing, nothing matters apart from making a

fucking cool song in like the, in, in everything. There's not like, yeah, there's not like an inch of them that's like, they're not, yeah, there's not an inch of them that's like kind of, uh, they're just incredibly pure, incredibly pure and they music that you guys do together so so cool and it's it's it's it's you know I moved here a long time ago and I feel like the what's cool has shifted and all this stuff but there's something about the only way you create something timeless is really by being fully authentic and it just sounds this music you guys the music you guys do together so authentically what it is.

It just fits like, I can't tell if there's, if it, if it's, if it's retro or is it futuristic? Like it fits in this way where because it has some of that retro vibes in it, it's one thing, but the lyrics feel really current. And so it doesn't feel pastiche in a way that like Amy Winehouse never felt pastiche because the lyrics kept it feeling forward, really modern. Did you guys ever think, well, what kind of music should we do? Or was it just the three of you guys together? It's like, you know, what's the first day of writing for the three of you guys?

What was that life? It was like some, it was like a kind of droney song. We still have it. It was a sweet song about something about, about something about me like flying on a plane and leaving someone. Like, am I going to feel the same way now that I've, like, up and left? And, like, you know, it was, it was something like that. And, like, I think, like, there's something, there's something about, like, with them,

it's, like, an instrument, like, makes us, like, we're, like, giggling about sounds that we're making. Do you know what I mean? Like, there's, there's this, like, really pure, just, like, ecstatic enjoyment that, that, like, comes out. like we've like yeah like and joels is like jules is like a proper eccentric like we're all like he's like properly eccentric and like like wonderful and really really genuinely strange like like he's you know he's and he's and he's got complete like we've all got like some kind of form of like extreme ADHD and it can be it can honestly be hours of like going completely off course um And makes for good songwriting.

Do you know what I mean? As long somebody can go back and see what the, you know, somebody can go back in time and look back at what you guys did during those, that time, then you might land on something. I mean, how do you finish a song if everybody has extreme ADHD? I feel like it's hours and hours of not, of, like, meandering. Because that's kind of where the magic comes because it's not. I think there's like, and like, you know,

I definitely have like other sessions where we like go in. and we also make great music because we're like in it, we'll be like, we have, you know, eight hours and we're going to make something like, we want to go home and see our kids and that's fucking get to it. And like,

I've definitely made like great songs that I love doing that also. Yeah, parameters can help with that. Yeah, exactly. But then, but like with them, it's like very, with them it's like very much like,

that's stay, like, that's stay up. Like, Jules will sometimes just not go, not go to bed. and like he can just get completely lost in a loop or something, you know, and just, and he's like a wild man in that way. And Nat is like such an amazing partner like to him because she's, she likes, you know, is like a wild woman too, but she like balances him out a little bit.

And she's such an amazing, she's such an amazing lyricist. And like I just love like, I feel like we can, you. Yeah, we just have this incredible back and forth together. But yeah, there's like the freedom. So like when I go, yeah, when I go and work with them, it's, it's, yeah, Jules is like, he's, it's, it's anti-structure in that way. But saying that, we were just talking last night, we were just talking last night on the phone and we were talking about like how back in love was made, which was like the opening single

on my song on my album. And we were kind of like, we've got all of these voice notes and we were like going through everything, like laughing. There's this picture he has. He's got like a giant satire that he got the satar out and had been playing it for hours. And he's got the voice note where I'm like, I just like, what if we just like, I just don't know about this? I'm not sure about the satar. And he's just like, Suuji, like, let the fear go. like he's got heavy French accent

like heavy French accent and I'm like yeah but it's just I just think it's a little it's a little bit too much it's just we were like laughing so much because I did like we did and that's like yeah Jules like she's from she's from Liverpool

and she's got she's like yeah Jals I just think that's just that's just not have that like maybe we'd ease that off and he's just like you know he doubles down he doubles down for sitar yeah it's like we're like you know that long relationship with everyone.

Like you can kind of like, you can be, you can like kind of like say stuff to each other. And I remember the day that we'd made that song, we were actually, that was like one of the only times where it was like, it was December 7th. It was really soon to the record being finished. And I like went,

I like flew to London with like a sense of urgency because I was like, I was like there's a missing song. I want like a, I was like looking for, I'm always like quite directionless when I'm writing in a way of like, like what I want. And this time I was like at that point I was like, oh, like I'm, I was itching for

like a great live sounding, like wanted something epic, wanted something like quite universal, wanted something like uplifting. And actually we like made, we made, we didn't do it. I found the song that me and Jules had been noodling on all day and that was in a really bad mood. We made a packed. If we're not writing something that's fucking brilliant, we're not carrying it on, she just like flat out refused to let us like lay down this song. And she was like, we're starting again. And then I had a, I had an acting audition that was, it was like another thing in the day that was like breaking up the day, kind of like, it was getting to like 6pm. We hadn't achieved anything. And everyone was, yeah. And I was like, Jaws, I really need to use

the studio for this acting audition. because it's very dark in there and I was like, it's the only place where I can get any light and he was just like, he fully was like, no, you're not, you're not using the studio, like, I'm going in the studio,

like you can go outside in the main room and I was like, fuck, so I had like this one tiny little light and did the worst audition of my life. Like complete, and the casting director's like, can I, like, we can't do this in the dark and I'm just like, sorry, like it's fine. and it was just like terrible.

And by the, but when I came back into the room, they'd like locked themselves away in the studio. And Nat had been on the, uh, the Wurlitzer, um, going like, we hadn't had this old tune of the opening of like, do do do do do do do do. And then Jules had got like a melaton out and was like layering meletrons. And then it was like later redone by horns. But like I kind of came in there and we were like,

oh, there's something in that. There's something in that. And then the song came really fast that day. What is really fast, man? Just like the song was... Like an hour or like... Like, yeah, like a couple... Eight hours or something.

No, no, no, no. No, actually, I'm not like... Two hours is pretty fast. It probably wasn't two hours. Like, I probably left for like one in the morning. But it flowed. It was like suddenly we were in it. And it's the ends up being the opening song of the album.

It ended up being the opening song of the album. I remember like walking around the park the next day. So a lady is my lover, did not make the album. No, but it's going to come back. Cut to napping, like, just slowly shaking her head. Absolutely not. No. There's no way this song's going back.

She's like, this is not. Is it hard to balance, you know, when I know, you know, for some people that have to walk into the other room and do an audition or do a phone call or do whatever, that is hard to, like, switch hats, like almost literally wearing hats. It's not a good idea. But, like, sometimes you just have so, yeah, it's not. It's not something I recommend. How do you switch from being an actor from being an artist? I wasn't an actor that day. That was an absolute bond.

You didn't switch either. Yeah, it was shit. It was really shit. So, yeah, it's not, it's not, I don't think that is, like, trying to do. Yeah, that's probably my, I think, like, that's probably one of my downfalls is trying to sometimes think that I can have, like, a billion tabs over and one time. When somebody asked you, you know, in L.A., it's a big thing where people sort of say like, you know, when they meet you and you're like, I'm a blank and they define themselves by their occupation. Do you think of yourself as an actor? Do you think of yourself as an artist?

Do you think of yourself as a model? Do you think of yourself? You know, what do you think of yourself? Just a model. I'm kidding. And then that's, we just stare at the camera. for the rest of the... No, I'm like...

For the next 45 minutes. I'm like such an ex-model at this point. I'm like such an aged out model. I'm not a model anymore, no. No, I don't... You know what? I kind of like... I think that question, like, sort of like...

Like, especially when I started putting out music, it was like something that like kind of like pained me quite a lot because it was like, oh God, I've like been a musician and I've acted and now I'm going to do music. And it was like... And it felt like really intense. Like, uh... Sounds so like,

ridiculous whatever there's so many more important things in the world but like that it felt like a difficult thing like being like oh my god how am i going to like define myself and and and also like how in London especially in England like you're not that you're not like in the states you're kind of like everyone's a little bit more open to interesting different things especially in L.A. actually it's like yeah maybe L.A. in particular like if you were like I'm going to be in a movie next week I'd be like cool great you know what I'm I mean, like, none of your friends would be like, like, oh, like, you know what I mean? There's, like, a lot more openness in, in America, I think. And in England, it's like, you what? You know,

it's, especially in like, in, like, public, in, like, press, I think it's, it's much, it's, you know, and especially you may, and maybe for, like, what I'd, like, done and being in fashion and I was, like, in a certain lane that I was, like, damn, this is kind of, it was, like, a little, difficult to break out of, but saying that I was, I also was like incredibly, I mean, I've had, like, I've been so incredibly lucky to, I mean, so lucky. They also, they may have felt that way until they heard the music and they're like, oh, shit. No, I think, like, I remember doing the, I remember, like, doing my, like, first performance or, like, putting up brutally, for example, and, um, but, like, the, the press, like, picking up

on it and, uh, there's, like, an article and, like, the Daily Mail being, like, fails, to chart at all. It's like an acoustic song. I had like no team, no part. Like, it's not going to chart. Like, you know what I mean? But they like, when they like immediately. And that kind of like, yeah, I was like put off for a long time actually by certain

things like that. So I didn't, yeah, I didn't really release things very often. I definitely was like, like embarrassed. Like, was, it when I look back at it, it took me like a long time. And I would put out like, one song every year. So I had like brutally and then I think I think I might have put out good looking right after that.

Was it? Good looking after that. And like no one I like played that song to at the time was like, was very into it at all. Like. Yeah. A billion people later. Yeah.

Well, and like eight years later too. Like a long time later. So like I put out that song. Even more reason. Even better. Yeah. It takes longer. It takes a long time.

And that was like the first time I like discovered district kids. and like the song has like the photo that I'd used because I was like making like that that was I guess I'd like start even even though I didn't you know I definitely was like I was taking it seriously I think even if people

weren't like recognizing it that much because I had like cover art for that photo and I'd that was like I'd yeah I was like uploading stuff on district and it's funny because the cover art I hadn't figured out the dimension the dimension so it It's like blank space. And that's why?

That's so good. The little like rectangle. That's great. Yeah. And yeah. So I was like and I'd made like a, I'd made a video for that song. And like so I was like making stuff with friends. My friend ever would do loads of things for me.

And like I made that video in a hotel room and like cut my hand open on the on the fan and like went to hospital. And we like filmed most of that video in hospital. So, yeah, I don't know. I don't want to sound like a... I got introduced to Suki Waterhouse as a musician. That's cool. And so I don't... All the other stuff feels like side projects.

Yeah, exactly. To you being a musician. And so that goes back to the how, you know, when you meet somebody, that's how you view them. And so you can't un-see that. You know, once you see that, you're like, oh, that's this person's a musician. They're not, you know. Oh, yeah, they did fashion. in the past that's still like I now I think of you as a musician that's part of your past or

you know these are things you do simultaneously to being a musician so it's really strange how when you meet somebody you develop this this aura around them. Of how you like first came across them. Yeah. Yeah. How do you develop thick skin as an artist? As an as or as you know when you're saying fashion people would say adults would say some crazy shit to you.

How do you develop thick skin? Are you born with that? I don't know if I have thick skin. Like I don't, like I, yeah, like, I like, I feel like our job in a way is to like not have thick skin as well. Yeah. But like I do, I do have a, but yeah, I don't, I don't have thick skin in a lot of ways. It's not. But I do, I think like as I've grown up and like now I'm older, the one thing that I do know is that,

that, like, I, like, I, I, I, I know that, like, things will go up and things will go down. And, like, you'll have, like, I've, you know, I've had times where, like, like, I've been working a lot or, like, you know, think, you know, you know, you feel like there's, like a heat or something. And then I've had it, like, kind of go away. And, like, you're like, that's also, like, okay and, like, really nice in lots of ways, too. and then and like those moments for kind of like you actually want that you want you want to like you want to like you want to release something and be out and then you want to like go it's like very important to like go away and like you know not be doing a bunch of like public things like all the time i don't think that's how like i want to like live my life i don't think it's like healthy

I think figuring out how to like have an artistic process that is actually like healthy for you is now like the most important thing to me. And I'm not, I'm still, I'm like trying, I'm figuring, I'm trying to always, that's like a working thing. Yeah, I think that this two shall pass happens with positive stuff too. You know, I think. And so it's, you can't have hits forever and eventually, you know, you can't have or your version of hits or whatever. Right. Fashion is obviously a hotbed of music. It seems like people build entire lines around good music,

or a whole however version of people want to show a new line. It's so music-based. How did music, through the time of being 16 to 2016, you know, 2016, how did music and fashion combine in your head to, you know, create the person you are to walk in with Jules and Nat and create the music you ended up writing? I think it had a huge, I think it had a huge impact on me, actually. I think, yeah, like the exposure to, like, the exposure to like being, like playing different characters all the time like on set like having um yeah we you know you're on sets

you I actually I feel like I got exposed to a lot of music I um got to meet a bunch of people that showed me so many things so I'm so young um I got to yeah I got to like be a bunch of different people I think I think I like started uh like I remember having this blog and uh a photographer giving me a film camera and like learning how to load the camera. And that was like my thing that I like very much like I always had this camera with me. And I had this blog. And I feel like that was like where I started like putting like having. I was like looking for like this control of my image in a lot of ways.

And I would like go home after a shoot and. Like, I would have my hair and makeup all done, and I would get into my own stuff. I was really into, like, thrifting and, like, had, like, was always, I had, like, these big Doc Martins and was, like, always at, like, you know, wherever, like, combing through spitterfields. I had, like, quite, like, eccentric, very, like, homemade kind of, like, funny style back then. I also had, like, a big mod face where it was, I just, like, looked like I was right out of the, like, Patty Boyd or something.

That's fun. Yeah, it was very bad. I was always in like white tights and like a John Smedley like turtle neck. But I think like, yeah, that blog was like I would kind of, I would do all these like self-timer photos everywhere and upload them. And it was like very like Tumblr era. And that was like I feel like that, like the influence on like my musical tastes and like those images like it was somewhere to like put.

And then, yeah, so I would like always have like prints of that and like make and then I would like stitch together pictures and write things on them. And that was like kind of where I started like putting like words and images together and having like it was like this little place for me to have like some sense of like how I how like yeah images and words if that makes sense. When did you reconnect with your parents? Oh, I was always like, yeah. I was never like. I never was You weren't like outcast No I was never like You know not I was never like not connected to them

Even if we yeah Even if I was like fighting with them I was still connected to them So it was yeah I think that was like a definitely like a time Where I was or like a good couple of years Where I was like pulling away But I would still

I would still always go home when When like you know The shit had to find Yeah Oh that Yeah Yeah Okay, the story of good looking is amazing.

It's such a good story. Like the whole, the fact that we're still in a place where it's top 10 trending on TikTok and that thing was written and came out nine years ago. Is it still? That's so crazy. You're welcome for that. That's so not. I know everything.

You know everything. Cut to Jen over there. Yeah, she's like tight. over there on a key. But, you know. Are you sending him stuff right now? Are you texting him information? Look, I'm not doing this.

I made no thing. Every once in a while. Wow. You are an actor. You're not doing an actor. Yeah. You had me fooled. Yeah.

That's so, growing up. That's great. It happens. No, but for real, like, but the story of good looking is incredible. And it is top 10 at TikTok now nine years after releasing it. I'm sure that when you wrote it, you, nobody writes a song thinking, that 10 years later it's going to be hotter than it was the day that they wrote it.

But tell me the story about the day you wrote Good Looking. Oh my God, it was so long ago. But actually, I do remember that there are certain things that I remember about that song. That I remember that it was,

the chorus originally was good looking, what's cooking. What's good looking? What's good looking? What? What are you cooking up something? What are you cooking up recently? What are you cooking up?

It was good looking what's cooking. And we were really happy with that. And there's like other things that I remember about that song. Like I remember my little brother coming around to do painting. I had this apartment at the time where I would like lay out like parchment paper and we would paint. and he like made he he's really good at drawing and he drew this um he drew like a skyline there was a train track outside of like uh labrack grove station which was where this apartment was and that and i remember like this drawing that he'd done and he might have like written skyline or something

and i and that is where i got the skyline falls lyric um so it was like a little like patchwork of um a little patchwork of ideas that came together. And I feel like we finished that song at Jules's mom's house in France. And I like, yeah, it's all like a little bit, a little bit like piece together. It was around the same time that we did Joanna as well that we made Joanna. Would you already sign a subpop at that point? No, no, no. So this is all independent?

Yeah. How crazy is that? Like all these, everybody wants a record deal or they want something. but here a woman in, you know, writing with her friends, releases a song independently, and it, you know, ends up having this life. The song really blows up like five years later. I think longer, yeah.

I mean, and six years, whatever. Seven years, seven years later, yeah. How is that seven years later, thanks. Seven. Seven, well, eight, eight years. Eight years later. Yeah, that's a long time. What?

I know, it's crazy. I don't know. It's so not a TikTok song as well. Maybe that's why I worked. I don't know. It was like, yeah, it was just complete fluke. It was a complete fluke. What was the moment when it was like, well, that's not, that's, that's, this is working.

You know, this is like, is there a moment where you realize this song is not just some song that I release in 2017. This song is one of the hottest songs in the world. So strange. It was so odd because it was, it was like really beautiful. full, it's so weird the timeline because it was such an amazing moment for it to happen and so like it does feel like

everything was like coming together and like the past was like like the work I'd done and the all the work I'd done in the past was like giving me like a little like wave you know and being like hey that we're gonna we're gonna help you out because I so I'd made my

by the time this happened in 2022 I was shooting Daisy Jones and the 6th I there had been like a big COVID break that was really unexpected. So in that time I kind of was like sitting there being like what like actually like sitting with myself for the first time like we all were right. And I was like I have I've got all these songs. I'm going to just make my record. Like I'm going to be like I'm going to be so unhappy with myself if I never do this. So I like made the record independently. like completely just made the record that I wanted to make.

It was called I Can't Let Go. And then I started like reaching out to record labels in the pandemic. Everyone said no apart from subpop. I think I like, in fact they said like no and then like followed up with them six months later. Like got on the phone with them and this is all pre like good looking blowing up or anything. And they were amazing and they like gave me. gave me a licensing deal. And then, so like the record is about to come out

and I'm shooting Daisy Jones. They got me a, they also have Father John Misty and I got on his tour. Very cool. Which was amazing. So like right after finishing the show, I was about to go out with him on this massive two-month tour doing the craziest rooms.

Like I was, like I literally am always so grateful to him because I was so green. so green, like didn't know what the fuck I was doing. And it was like the best, like, I like fell on my ass so many times. But it was also like the best thing that ever happened to me, like going on, going on that tour. And then so like literally as I'm as I'm kind of about to go on tour like a couple of months, I remember because I was shooting the show. And I remember being in New Orleans.

And it started and like suddenly we're like, oh my God. Like, what? These numbers start going up. And then, yeah, and then just like every day, you're just like, what is happening? It's so strange. Is it, do you still get shocked by it? Or is it something now that it's like you now have an evergreen as part of your life that you wrote? And so therefore it's normalized.

Like, is it normalized at this point? No, I still think it's really, really strange. Like, it's so weird. It's so weird. It's like such a backwards. It's so cool and it's such a, and it's like been such a cool thing to like, um, like,

it's such a nice thing for me to be like, oh, yeah, everything that you're doing. Like, I think it's so true as well. Like, even like I just,

my album just came out a week, like a couple of days ago. And like, I think it's like so nice like, because in my head, that experience made me, just reminded me that like, like it's,

like, it's like, it's, For me, I'm like, there's nothing about what happens in the first week. This is like, this is like a long-term thing where like it's full of surprises. You never know what the fuck's going to happen. You never know if like something you worked on 10 years ago is going to like come back around.

That's like kind of one of the exciting things about like music now. And yeah, it's just like. It's amazing to see the new album's great. And I think a lot of seeing all the collaboration. that you have in the songwriting community and whatnot, you know, you're really, it feels like your trajectory is just beginning, you know. So when to have songs that are now almost 10 years old exploding, it's this weird thing when you're like, yeah, the songs that you're releasing two weeks ago,

you know, or not even three days ago, you know, that they could blow up. in 10 years from now when your daughter's in junior higher high school is bizarre. Yeah. But it totally could. It's like the exciting thing. I'm sure you feel that too. Yeah, I mean, this is the thing about, yeah, I think it gives you hope for songs that you know were great that haven't quite gotten there and you're not really sure why. And also, you know, when even some of the bigger songs that I've done, like, I think when, when our, you know, when our.

records Dangerous Woman It's She had She was a big artist But she wasn't Who she is now As far as she's now

You know The biggest She's you know She's as big as you get In the world I love that song So much It makes me feel

I love that It makes me feel so I'm like I'm fucking dangerous When I listen to that song I love that Me too But you know

That's another story but the idea of that that song is like you know it comes out with an artist and she that's that album changes sort of where she is in her career and she's you know she's a world-class talent and all this stuff and it's not to say she wouldn't have gotten there one way the other but the song has gained more and more meaning as she's gained more and more meaning so it's interesting to see it's nothing I could control it's just sort of a luck of the draw that that song is attached to such a wonderful singer in that point of her career and it grows.

And you just never know that. The full circle moment in this album that's interesting is having, you know, Fleetwood Mac play at all. You know, Fleet, in particular, playing on this album is wild considering Daisy Jones and the Sixth is loosely based on the Fleetwood Mac life, you know. Tell me what it was like playing, Karen in that show?

I think it was, I mean, that show was, was so, like, one of, like, it was, it was,

it was, like, one of those projects where I remember being, like, I really, and I don't feel this very often. Like, I was like, I have to play,

I have to play this character. And, and I remember, like, going into my agent's office and, like, just to say hi. And there were, like,

all the, she had, like, all the characters written out. And the people that she was, putting up for it. And like my name actually wasn't on the list and I was fucking pissed. I was like, hey, like I, where's my name?

Like, what's going on? And she's like, oh, yeah, okay, okay, yeah, that's good. That's good. Like, it's audition soon. And it was a long audition process. It was like a lot of, it was a lot of like, I don't think I was like quite in the, like, quite in their minds. and I flew myself back to L.A.

like in the final kind of like moments for it. They still wanted to see me like again. And I've been like playing a lot of like piano trying to like show them that I could like do that part. But I think it came down in the end to like the chemistry with Will who plays Graham. And I remember, like, I, like, got on his back and got him to, like, run me up and down the halls of Hello Sunshine. And then we, like, burst into this room and did this scene. But, yeah, there was something about that role where it was like, I don't know, maybe, like, in my head I knew that I had to play her because, like, I had to play someone who was so confident about, like, who they were.

And, like, her whole character is, like, I am a musician through and through. I'm going to be doing this till like the day I die. Like nothing else matters to me. And there was like something in that character that I was like really drawn to. And I know that like playing her and like being around all that music, being around like sound city studios and like Blake Mills making the soundtrack and all of us doing band practice even though like we were a bunch of actors like who like took a long time to sound like a good band. but there was like there was something about that that um i think had you know and then combined with like COVID like definitely uh had a hand and like making me be like just fucking do it like you've got one life just fucking do it like get get this record done you that's awesome being a

playing a character who's in a rock band that's really successful and then getting to go on tour with you know, Father John Misty and then later Erez Tour and all these other things. It's like you kind of, you've experienced performing at such a high level and with so many people in front of you.

What's the difference between being in a studio to you and performing on stage? Um God there's lots Like Yeah I'm like that's it

That's it No I get And actually And Levee Last year I went with Went with Levee For six weeks Which was like

Also That's arenas too That was arena Yeah And that was That was like one of the That was like one of the That was like one of the reasons

Like she's like such an unbelievable musician And like someone I really look up to because she's like also done all of this like independently and like somebody that's just like I like I like just like being around it and like watching somebody that's like found this niche and been like I know I know exactly who I am I like know I know that there's there's something here and I just like trusting that's it's hard when when when the I don't want to say the industry puts you in a box I think just culture in general you try it's hard not to chase. trends and you're trying to create your own avenue in this. And so when somebody, when you see somebody who's confidently themselves and succeeding at that, that's as inspiring, if not more. So inspiring. My friend Joe over here always talks about, he's like, yeah, how often we're more, you know, you're more envious of the check. Like when you really think about it, then you are the actual

song. And a lot of times when you look at charts, you're looking at these charts and you're like, I don't wish I wrote any of these songs. It'd be nice to have the success of some of these songs, but I don't want to write these songs. And then when these artists come out and they're authentically themselves and they succeed at it, you can't help but be like, no, that's what I want. Right.

That's what you, that's like, yeah. I mean, like having, having, like, being, like having something inside of you that's, like, pure to you and, and, like, executing it. And then, like, it's like, there are, like, these battles that you, it's a battle every day. It is. It's like it's hard to like, you know, it's like, yeah, like standing up for yourself over and over again, like not listening to the, you know, people around you like trying to help or like trying who are also like invested in. Were you saying the check? Yeah. Yeah. Who are like invested in that and and also like you're like is that, you know, is that like what I, is that what I want in a or is that even like something that. like suits me in that like very like obvious way like I don't know like it's like yeah seeing

people like Leva who who who would be like I've got this vision I'm and I'm like every day I'm going out to battle and it's like it's fucking it takes it takes a lot it really does all of those artists are people who are doing their own path and yeah and that's probably why they all want you to open for them I don't know but like that's a nice of you to say but it's it's a it's uh it's a it's been, it's been, it's been, I've been really, really fortunate to, to just get to even like, just be on a stage with them,

like, be around them, like, like, just, it's, it's, it's, it's kind of like catching how, how, how, uh, because it can be quite isolating, can't it, when you don't, when you don't, like, um, like, I've really, I'm actually, I'm finding that more at the moment, like, my, uh, like, like, world of being able to, like, talk to other musicians and, and, uh, like ask them about like how you know like find like see how them their minds work and just

it's so it's so nice to like even just get to ask advice or be like how does this work in in in your world and because it's like yeah the music industry is quite like um like we all have our own little like fucking worlds going on with like the people around them and you know what I mean like we're all in in a way if it's done successfully yeah you'd Try to build your own world where you can... They're very specific to each person. Yeah. How everyone's, like, doing things.

Like, the mentality of, like, or, like, how, you know, how... Yeah, you know what I mean? Like, I was like, oh, are you showing... Do you show your label and your team stuff immediately? Or do you fucking, like, not let anybody in? Or, like, you know, there's... Do you? Do you show everyone?

I don't show my label stuff immediately, no. When do you show them? I would... I, like, like, I would. like keep, I keep, I keep that. So it's almost done. No, no, I like show them stuff along the way, but I don't, I show them, I will only show something when it's like, and because it's, when it's like in a place that I feel really good

about. Yeah, that's, that's good advice that I think, in a way, you want to entice people to be excited. Of course, yeah. But you don't want them to, you know, everyone has opinions. Yeah, I think like with my managers is different. Are there musicians that you should? share your music with to get advice? I mean, like, if I'm, like, really in love with something and really happy about something,

I'm, like, playing it to everybody. Yeah. Oh, I'm, like, so excited. I'm, like, put this on in the car. I want to play it to the Uber driver. I want to play it to my friends. Like, I want to, like, blast it. I'm really excited about it.

But it's, like, very vulnerable, isn't it? Because you fall in love with something. And then you have that, like, that thing where you've just been in this world and you'll just like, I absolutely love it. you've listened to it for like a couple of days straight. And then, and then like it can be, it can be like really difficult when you like show it to people.

And they're like, oh, yeah, I don't know. Like it's, you're like, ah, you know, it's tough. Well, this is the thing where also,

you know, the getting someone to even listen to a song where they're not distracted is almost impossible. Yes. To be like, hey, put your phone down. I know.

Because I'm playing. And then, you know, you're showing the most important people on your team and they're like, you're playing songs and they're like this and you're, man, I'm nervous about the snare sound, how it sounds on these speakers. And you're sitting there texting or emailing somebody and then you're like, I like, I like it or I don't. I know. It's the hardest thing. I'm looking at my hairstylist over there.

Who like, I played one of my singles too and she's like, no, now she loves it. It's real. No, she loves it. But it's like, but it. Which was the song? No, it was, it was, it was, it was, uh, it was tiny raisin and now you really like that song. But I was playing it to you in contrast with 18 and like you, you're an 18er. And I was an 18a too. And that was giving me a lot of, uh, turmoil because everyone else wanted that,

that wanted tiny raisin on 10 out 18. Yeah, it's just like, it's just, it's so difficult because it's also like, I don't know. I also don't want to be the person that's like, like I do, I'm also like, I'm also like a woman, which probably makes me more, like, I want to be, like, okay and, like, liked and nice. And it's, like, fucking, like, dealing with that side. And, like, you know what I mean? I don't. You don't.

I don't have that experience. It's just, like, being an artist and, like, wanting to, and, like, also, like, having that, like, part of me that's like, well, I'm not a genius. And I'm not, and, like, I'm also wanting. to like take advice and I want to, you know what I mean? And it's like those two things going up against each other or like taking opinions. And it's like I don't, I'm not like, yeah, I'm also like open to feedback. I'm not like a psycho who's not open to feedback. Like and but then it's like, then I'm like, should I be a psych, maybe I should be a psycho and not be open. This is the problem we

all get in. This is the, this is. It's hard because you want, you know, that thing, everyone has an opinion and 90% of the opinions I don't give a shit about, but somebody every once in while will say something and it may be the person I at least expect where it's like, that's actually a good opinion. That was a good note. Right. And you know, it's exactly. We're not, yeah, exactly. I'm not, it's not like, it's not like somebody's, somebody's opinion has not in the past, like, made me like see something in a different light and been helpful. What's an opinion that somebody gave you about a song where you're like, oh shit, that's right. No, that's, but I, I'm trying.

I'm trying to, like, think of one off the top of my head for, like, this, for, like, this song, for, like, this, for this record. Probably, like, things not being, yeah, like, things not being finished. I can think of a lot that I didn't, that, like, didn't, that, yeah, I can think, I can think, I can think, I think, I can think of ones where, like, they've said, like, oh, actually, I wasn't right. but I'm trying to think about probably just things like not put things what are you laughing at my ass time

I want to hear it she's just laughing she's just giggling oh I'm going to find it hard like I'm trying to think about like like like thing okay I'm thinking like the same

like back in love I felt like that was that didn't really like need any feedback I think I played it for like one producer and they didn't they like thought that the verses didn't want like catchy enough or something like that but then they were like oh actually now now now I don't agree with that because because they're giving I mean I I we all we listen to a lot of songs and especially when you're in the business where you know as a publisher I'm listening to a lot of songs so right as a songwriter I'm

writing a lot of songs and exactly I have a different experience but you have time off and listen to a verse, a pre-course or chorus, sometimes another verse, pre-chorus and chorus. But you're making a decision on whether you like a song very quickly. I know. And you don't have the time to, you know. And also your biases, I feel like you have a bias about like, you probably have a bias about like, do I like this producer? Do I like the song? Do you know what I mean? But when you were saying, like, the place that you're listening to it, if I'm like playing it for someone in a car with like the, we have the, we have the, we have the windows roll down and like it's been a fucking good day it's like how but that's the same but that's the same

as me as an audience listener to to music that I hear I can be like I mean I can think of things that of like coming out at the moment where I've been like like listen to it and been like I don't like it now and then and then I've like seen someone play it on Instagram or like I've seen you know what I mean like I've seen them do a little acoustic version of it or I've just heard it a couple of times and now I'm really into the song. It's like things just come to you. Things just come to you at all different times. What's a good,

this is a basic question, but to you, what's a good song? What's a good song? Yeah. I saw this like Beck quote the other day about, I just went to go and he's like my neighbor and I just went to go and see the Wes Anderson, he,

he, that Wes Anderson did this like tribute to his music that Bill Murray, uh, hosted. I think it's on for like three nights. I went the other night. And I was like watching Beck do Elliot Smith's Needle in the Hay. And I was like, oh, that is a fucking good song. Right. Like that's just like, and it's that feeling. It's not like fucked with too much. It's so, it has like such a purity to it. I think, yeah, like I mean, to me a good song. is something that has like

like a roughness and an imperfectness to it I was also like Jackson Brown these days like the just like lyrics that are lyrics that are so simple that feel like so imbued with meaning and heaviness and like on

like I was watching that show the other day and I was like fuck we've made things kind of like way more complicated like some of these the Hollywood Bowl show where they had all these musicians like caramel yeah it was all like a tribute to

West Anderson's music so cool but yeah so like I think I think like I think in a lot of ways like a like a simple message that's just like delivered and like

in some kind of like like poetic way that just yeah it feels it's like it's like chasing that simplicity really that you've now performed songs in front of you know theaters of 3,000 5,000 people or 8,000 probably for Father John Missy to Leve's 15 to 20,000 people which is nuts and then Taylor which is now 50 to 100,000 I have no idea tell me about what it's like to perform in each of those

scenarios um I just did yeah it's funny also I just did um I just did, like, the Mercury Lounge in New York the other day for, um, for like a album, um, like a first kind of like, like, warm up show for some, for some fans. And I did, I did the Roxy last January, like a little, like, little show. So I like, I do really love, um, going. That's more like 600 people. I think I'm less. Maybe small.

I feel like Mercury Lounge was like, fair. Yeah. 50 or something. Yeah. Um. And like those, yeah, those shows. Those shows are crazy because in a way they're actually, like, they're like incredibly energetic. You only have a tiny bit of, you know, I did the peppermint lounge the other day for a Spotify show, but you have like such a small amount of stage.

The sound in your ears is like crazy. Like it's insane. Like I didn't have a monitors guy at the Mercury lounge and I was like, oh. And afterwards I was like, that was interesting. And they were like, oh yeah. And I was like, oh, I didn't have anyone. like doing my ears and like it's been a long time since I didn't have anyone doing my ears like actually when I did the father John Misty tour I was doing like red rocks and radio city and I didn't have an

ear's monitor because I just like was already like in such insane death from like opening you know what I mean it's like you like losing so much money it was like another like cost that I just couldn't afford at that point but like yeah so it's like it's it's a it's a different kind of you have to be like like like so much more. You have to be like really on it when you're doing those tiny clubs and you've got to be and and like using such a small space is like is a is interesting because it's um yeah so that that like in some ways I'm like those ones are like very like exhilarating and kind of like affronting of like I'm like right in front of I'm right in front of people um but yeah like small small clubs I think that was like one of like my like favorite tours ever was um

like the coolest place in the world tour which was like tiny little clubs and like things were just starting to take off and like you know yeah like good looking and just started to take off and it was and it was also like all the people that had uh kind of like been into my music in the last tent like they were into joanna and they were into um they're fans they're real fans yeah and they'd like been around for a long time and like so so that was like that was like a really exciting place and then and then um and then yeah i've like i get and like doing the the leve tour last year i got i think like that was like one of my things that i really wanted to do is just like how do you start to feel because i was i i opened for mitsky one time in an arena uh like two or three years

ago and i was i was like oh this is i felt really really um really nervous like i was like oh i'm not used to this at all. Like, this was, this was a big thing. So I wanted to, I wanted to do the Levei tour also to, to be like, what would it be like doing that for six weeks and like see, and like, how will I feel at the end? Like, by the end, you feel really comfortable being in an arena. So weird. Yeah.

And it's like strange that that can happen. It can normalize. It can totally normalize where, where then you're just like, kind of, you know, yeah, you like, stroll out. Did that prepare you for, for, uh, for, uh, for stadiums? That was, I think I actually did that after. I did it after the Taylor thing, yeah.

I did the Taylor show before. That was before. So what was that like? That was really scary. Opening for Taylor Swift. That was really scary. I mean, like, I mean, she makes you feel so comfortable. And I remember, like, getting there.

And she's like, I'm, like, very lucky to have had her as a friend for a long time. So she, like, I think one of her superpowers is how, like, comfortable she makes you feel. And she, like, you know, she came, she came and saw me before and gave me a big hug. And she's, like, been so encouraging in the past, which is so nice. And, like, just, I remember everyone in my, like, crew and my band being, like, you know, like, oh, my God. She's, like, you know, she's so, she makes, she just makes you feel so special. And, like, everyone. And that's how I think, you know, I think that's how she's able.

able to do, like, do these, like, something like that, which is just, it's, like, unthinkable, like, what a feat it is. And, like, yeah, really, like, that show, I was just, like, the thing I was most excited about, like, was just getting to watch the ERA's show, because I'd been, like, I'd been once before, but I was, like, I was, like, me opening is, like, an out-of-body experience and in my hometown at Wembley. And, like, my dad, like, didn't even believe that it was really happening. Like he was, he was, like, unsure that this was actually, like, a real thing.

He was just like, you know what I mean? Until I was actually out there. But I remember that there was, like, that little table, not that little, she has, like, this door thing that comes up. And I walked out there and I did, I can, my body completely froze. And I, like, missed, like, the first word and caught up right, right away. But I was, there was, like, I was shocked. I was in complete shock.

And doing the soundcheck, I was freaked out, freaked out because it's just empty stadium seats, like 90,000 red seats around you. And you're like, that's a lot. And I didn't really even think about it until I, like, pulled up to sound check. And then I was, I was freaked. I was freaked. But it was, it was like the best, trippiest thing that could have happened to me. And I'd like just had a baby five months before. So it was like, it was like her first trip to London. And like having my family there. And then Paramour, like, Haley Williams was like, said something because I think she'd done a song on the Twilight track. So she said, like, this one, she said something like, oh, Suki came out and she said, this one's for Mr. Waterhouse. And then my dad just like basically

collapsed and was like, she's calling my name. She's, she's just dedicated, dedicated a song to me. And we're like, no, she hasn't. That's so cute. No, she hasn't. You don't have to crack that. He never have to correct that. You never have to correct that. You does not need to know that. He should know. That is really sweet.

Yeah. He was on Cloud 9. Yeah. All the shit I put them through. It was all deleted in that night. I mean, it's so unnatural to perform in front of more than probably 250 people. Yeah. You know what I mean?

Like you perform it from your clan and then you're, you know, you're probably playing at night and there's somebody playing bongas. There's like people are cooking. It's like you're supposed to be in a clan of like 200 people and you live. That's how humans are supposed to, we're wired. We're not wired to perform in front of a thousand people, let alone, you know, 10,000. And at some point, I've said this before and I don't know if this is true, but I think you have this like, there's a level of happiness or excitement that you can reach. And then you don't have the capability of getting more happy or more, like, is playing red rocks or. or playing an arena or playing Wembley

like they're all just insane life memories but I don't know that you can max out how crazy it's funny you're saying that now because I'm like thinking of like how I was and I think I was like I really enjoyed the show but then I remember I do remember like watching her show

and then she called out she called out my name and like said something really nice and I had like I think like the excitement level just because I'd already been like I get I like get I'd scream like her shows make you react in really like crazy ways like you just scream a lot and she like you know she just points around you go and you like it doesn't matter like it doesn't matter like I don't know it doesn't matter who you are in that building you just you kind of like lose it and and then she like yeah she like said my name and said something nice and I literally went into shock and just screamed and like but i like burst into tears it i went over and like i went over a hundred and just like it was it had been a lot it was like bay had a baby like dig cacella like right after having a baby like a five five and six weeks after which was like an insane decision and then like then put like uh was like make i think made a music video at like yeah around

that time too. And so because I had a record coming out. Yeah, I had her in March and my record was coming out in September. So I'd just finished the record like the week after she was born. So it was like a lot. It was a lot of emotional like career fucking insane things happening and having and having her at the same time. It was in 2024. It was yeah, fucking insane. And yeah, That's so insane. If people don't understand how hard, it's hard enough to be a mom, period, full time, let alone be a working mother,

whether you're have a job or whether you're a full-time mom, it's just so hard being a mom. And as a, I just have been watching it for five years, and it's just so hard. And then to imagine that you could go from that to performing Coachella or one, Membley is. Yeah, it was, it was, it was, it was, like, strange and zany and, like,

because I would, like, be, I would be, you know, I'd be, like, at home kind of, like, you know, like, locked in, your home becomes, like, basically, like, an asylum of, like, you don't really, like, leave it much, but then, like, the times I would leave would be 90,000 be really crazy. We're going to finish with some rapid fire. Katie Grass from our Patreon asks, what? What is your favorite part of the songwriting process? That's cool.

You have a Patreon. I love Patreon. Yeah. Come join. Yeah, I will. I really enjoy Patreon. Yeah. We got a thing.

And the writer is. There you go. My favorite part of the songwriting process is I think like I think like the parts where like we've kind of like there's music going that like feels really good. and you're trying to like find something that like fits into it and you're like in a certain you like my favorite thing is like when I'm feeling kind of like I'm like I'm like in a good mood I'm maybe feeling like a little like I'm feeling kind of like quite confident maybe a little bit sassy and I just kind of like I just start like spitting out like kind of like little outrageous like isms and like little phrases and like so maybe you sometimes say something and

everyone like goes a bit like I don't know like sometimes like it's like if you say something and everyone goes like like touches everyone and makes everyone go like a little bit red that's that's that's really fun do you know what I mean well I would say when everyone in the room wants to uh that that's that's that's the right time to keep something in a song when everyone feels uncomfortable like oh should we do this yeah that's when you keep us everyone it keeps the song from being vanilla all right next question is do you ask your husband for feedback on demos ever? Yeah, like definitely, yeah. Does he make a good taste of music? Yeah, he does. Yeah, he definitely does. He, he's always, like, trying to, he's got, like, he's always just, like, wants me to make, like, trance or.

Well, that was the left turn. Okay, we're going to go to the new album. The new album's so good, and I know we're running out of time, so I'm going to just run through stuff. In the new album What should I play if I was driving at night? Which song? Oh, what would you play if you were driving a night? Right now off my new record, I would say play when I get drunk, I want you, boy.

Okay. What should I play if I was your daughter in her 20s? Um, I would say, uh, I love, like, maybe I'll go like some, I would play like floating down confidence river. I would play Cliffhanger. These are all off my old, my like deluxe album from my last deluxe album. That's interesting.

What should I play if I was missing someone? I would play Weirdo currently. That is like my most missing. That's like the, yeah, it's a song from my new record. And it is all about missing somebody, your favorite weirder. What should I listen if I was heartbroken? Um, heartbroken, I would say, uh, maybe like helpless. Or brutally. Can I actually know, brutally is the, that was like me at my most heartbroken. Sorry, for correction.

Solid shot back. All right. What should I play if I was drinking alone? Um, Joanna or blackout drunk. Blackout drunk, amazing. What should, what should I play if I was on my first? date um first date um maybe my fun my fun and what should i play if i was walking through london if i was walking through london i would play notting hill that's a good song does really something for every situation lead single of the new um uh thank you for doing this thank you so much that was really fun i am uh you know i like i said i i became i i'm aware of sukey through her brilliant music and all the other stuff and the history that got you to that is,

is so cool to learn to help define who this incredible musician is. And I am so impressed with where you are in your career. And I know that this, you're going to have, I mean, how many albums deep now, four albums? Three. Yeah. And, you know, we'll be doing this on your fifth. 10th album. It just feels like we're just beginning to hear your story.

And the new album is so good. So congratulations on that. Thank you so much for having me. I've really, really enjoyed it. Thank you. There you go. Thank you, guys.