And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 259: Jessi Alexander on Writing "The Climb" The Week She Almost Quit... + What It Takes To Last as a Nashville Songwriter

Episode Date: August 4, 2026

Today's guest wrote "The Climb." She also wrote "I Drive Your Truck," "Mine Would Be You," "Don't Think Jesus," and "Ain't No Love in Oklahoma." But her real story isn't the hits. It's the ten years before the first one, the five years after it when the phone stopped ringing, and what she figured out in between about how to actually last in this business.From a dropped record deal and years as what she calls a washed-up artist nobody would write with, to Song of the Year, a Grammy nomination, and a run of hits she wrote while raising three kids under three. She carries three things at once that almost no writer figures out how to hold together: a working method she can actually teach, a conviction that this is a calling and not a job, and a refusal to write the safe version of anything.And The Writer Is... Jessi Alexander!Hit subscribe and turn on notifications. Every week, we go deep with the most interesting creatives in music.Follow us on socials: @andthewriterisA special thank you to our sponsors for making these conversations possible.Our lead sponsor, NMPA — the National Music Publishers' Association. Your support means the world to us.0:00 Intro0:48 Her favorite non-songwriting songwriter trick1:54 "How do you make unavailable country men emotional?"5:33 The five songs on her Hall of Fame plaque11:07 Pool halls and stick shifts: "that color is what I draw from"12:42 The artist deal that fizzled — "I wasn't the artist type"13:31 No man's land: "no one took me seriously, I was a washed-up artist"14:01 The insane story behind writing The Climb: "just another damn day"20:11 Bud Light, a guitar pull, and a British director22:07 Being told The Climb would change her life "Sir, that doesnt happen to people like me"28:08 Nashville still said No30:38 Getting men to sing: long notes and the falsetto flip31:44 "What part of their tool belt have they not used?"34:32 The professor who told her to quit school36:18 Her album, the mergers, and Redneck Woman40:27 New mom: "they'll just put someone else in my spot"45:30 Good mom or good at work — never both46:16 2015 to 2020: "the water just turned off"48:23 Advice for the writer whose phone stopped ringing50:24 The song that rang every bell57:21 Concept-first or melody-first: "I'm the director"61:16 Songwriters own it. Screenwriters sell it.64:16 Imposter syndrome and the Billy Strings answer65:24 What makes Morgan Wallen great69:46 "I don't like to not know where all the bodies are buried"71:43 I Drive Your Truck (Crazy story)74:37 Her granddad's truck in the driveway75:44 "Call in the third. Call in the fourth. Call in the 10th."76:46 No #1 party until they found him80:36 The truck-song traffic jam they were worried sick about85:38 "Keep your head down." Still the only answer.Credits:Hosted by Ross GolanProduced by Joe London & Jad Saad Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to Anne the Writer is. I am your host Ross Golan. Today's songstress is a true craft woman. Her pen is not afraid to get a little messy. She's deservingly decorated because, unlike most, she made the climb. Wait, no, I like this one better. If I got to choose a co-writer right now, right here, mine would be you. Oh.

And the writer is the one and only Jesse Alexander. Oh, well done. Well played. I feel like we've been trying to get you on this thing forever, and so I'm really happy that you're here. So glad to be here. Thank you for having me. You're a really talented writer. Thank you. You too. Why are you in L.A.? Well, I came to see you. And we're here to see some music tonight.

We're going to go see Parker McCollum at the Greek Theater. And I don't get out much. I don't leave Tennessee as much as I used to. But I like you. come out here every now and then and just. How often you go see concerts? Not enough. When I do, I'm always so inspired. And, like, my favorite thing to do as a songwriter is to, like, get out in the crowd. And I don't mean the nice posh pit.

I mean, like, get out and try to really get among the people that are, that spent their hard-earned money, you know, to buy this concert ticket. And I try to, like, look around and go, why does this song work for this artist? what is this artist needing? What are these girls needing? I write mainly for men or a lot with men right now. But especially like observing the, just the listener. That's what matters to me is like,

because I can get in my little room and think I know what people want to hear but until you get out there and you see why something works, you know. Yeah, my first draft of the intro was how you make unavailable country, men emotional? I try really hard. But these people are notoriously like, oh yeah, they'll never, they'll never sing that. That's like, that's the bulk of, but I'm like, I can make them sing that. How? What is your, what is the magic? I come to the guys. I try to really, I mean, I didn't have brothers and sisters and definitely always felt like I craved brothers, you know. I was just definitely had boy energy growing up and definitely a tomboy. And so I just, I just, I just really,

really relate to men, especially when I'm writing songs. Like, I feel like sometimes I even relate to them more. I don't know why, but I think that immediately that just like diffuses the like girl guy thing. And I'm like, I mean, sometimes it's funny, like in the room because I'll be like, I mean, she's probably like, imagine she's like, you know, shirt or strap off on the beach or whatever. And they're like, wow. And like, no, I can see it. I see what you're seeing, you know. And it's just, I don't know, I can see how men can feel like that vulnerability come down. They're like, okay, you know, and I'll just get in there and I'll be like, why have you not ever sing about your dad?

Or what happened with your mom? I just start asking questions. And they know I'll go wherever, though. They know I'll write the honky tonk song, the beer drinking song, the cheating song, the song about their dad, you know. So I think it's just really trying to get their trust. in the beginning and then just see where it goes. Why, when you say you're primarily with men right now, why?

I say that, though, because that, but it's not really true because me and Megan Maroney and there's so many other women that have come through that I'm loving, writing with. I think that there was an era of time in country music especially, and actually all genres was that the females weren't saying a lot of depth. Like, it felt, especially in country, it was like, everything was beautiful and blessed and happy. And I just, that's not what I want to do. Like, I can maybe write those songs, but that doesn't, I don't enjoy that kind of writing. I like to, like, go to the jugular, like, find the darkness or the light, you know, just the intensity.

And I felt like for a while women weren't really doing that. And if they were, like Miranda Lambert, she was such. She's an incredible writer. She, you know, or even, like when Taylor came through Nashville, she wrote a lot alone. I mean, all the females didn't really need co-writers. So Carrie Underwood, you know, we can list them. But during that era, I was like, I've got to survive. And I know that's not how I'm going to have my hits.

I need to find the guys that will go. Anyway, you know, and Blake Shelton was a great example. Mine would be you. I mean, like that, he's the guy. I knew if I wrote makeup, so I. in the first first that that would catch his ear and it would be, you know, the kind of song. He wanted to be provocative. Yeah, it's just a, it's the thing when you walk into a session and when I said like Defy Nashville rules,

there are certain things that, you know, you can't help but have that publisher on your shoulder, that person, you know, that person saying, yeah, don't go. Nobody's going to release that. and you just had been pretty unafraid. I mean, look, for people who don't know your discography, give us five songs that people should know that you've done. What is your, you're going to be up for a songwriter Hall of Fame at some point, and they're going to say, she wrote these five songs.

What are those five songs? Gosh. Well, obviously, The Climb, my first hit, which Miley Cyrus, like, did change my life, and we can definitely talk about that. That's like the crown jewel. You know, that's the song I'll never sell. You know, that's the piece of land.

You know, that's what I passed down to my kids. But then the songs that I feel like really show my range or depth would be a song, like I drive your truck that won Song of the Year for Lee Bryce. Mine would be you. we mentioned, I mean, even my Morgan Wall and stuff, like, don't think Jesus, like, that's, I would hope that I'd be in there. But the songs I have out right now, I love, you know, my work with Megan or Riley Green or, like, I feel like I'm just getting started, you know. So it's just like every, you know, if every time you turn around, another great artist is walking

through Nashville. And especially right now, I really relate to these artists. There's been decades or eras that that didn't I think we all were raised a lot of like or we have similar backgrounds we have similar we're trying to speak to the same person and so it just jives

really quick the influences are a lot of traditional country with things that I was raised on a lot of like or even like soul blues a lot of southern music if that makes sense like roots music is popular and so that's kind of my wheelhouse

So when they walk in the door and they're like, we really want to write something traditional like Florida Lynn. I'm like, well, yeah, let's go. Like I know every, all of those songs. Yeah, well, how do you learn those songs? Let's go to the beginning. You're Tennessee born and raised. Yeah. So this feels like you came out of the womb writing songs.

So tell us about you. You were born. Yeah, I was born. How did that go? Well, it was a little dysfunctional in terms. in terms of my parents split up when I was three, so I have no recollection of them together. So very, like, I can see why I'm kind of a gypsy at heart

because on my kindergarten, when they're teaching you, you know, write out your address. I was like, I don't know. It's my mom's, my dad's, my me-moss, my grand. I was being passed around a lot. So I'm also an only child, like I said. So you can imagine just a lot of like turmoil I'm feeling with all this, but also a lot of like introspection, like listening to music. I was an odd child. I think a lot of people you've interviewed would probably say the same. Like, why does an eight-year-old have like Steve Ray Vaughn posters or like, you know, Patsy Kline or ACDC? I mean, I was just crazy about music. And I think. think looking back, it's like my dad didn't really know what to do with me other than this little girl, but he loved music. He's a painter, but he loved music. And he was very part of like the Memphis

blues scene at that time. And that was like our language together. He'd this stack of vinyl. He'd pull out and it'd be everything from bluegrass to country, like I said, Seoul, Delta Blues. And that was the one thing that we could really talk about. And the more I knew about the music, the more. I knew about the more it would, you know, he would just adore that, you know, and I could talk to his friends and then I could pick up a guitar and play it. So I was just an odd kid. Everybody else was playing soccer. I'm like figuring out how to play the slide guitar because I saw Bonnie Rape do it. You know, I'm just different and all through that time. And then I'm also, they're noticing at school, like every time there's a poetry contest, I'm playing, you know, winning or anything

writing. I was just like journaling, writing. What's the first song you ever wrote? I don't know. This just sounds like a funny, such a songwriter thing. I remember rewriting other songs. What's that? Like, I remember hearing a song and sitting at the piano and trying to learn it, but I was too lazy to write out the lyrics. So I would just rewrite my own lyric to the song, like using the melody. What was that first song that you do remember? I remember definitely Hank Williams, senior who was a big influence of mine and you know it wasn't like I'm so willing some I could cry but something like that like just sitting at the piano three chords and just doing that's crazy that guy died I mean all those guys died in like their early 30s late 20s early 30s and he died in the back of a car on

a tour literally yes something like that yeah it's so tragic did you grow up around a place that glorified that kind of personality? I mean, definitely being from the South, like, and just being shuffled around from bars, because I was, a lot of seedy places in Memphis and Jackson, Tennessee. I learned how to shoot pool young. I learned how to drive a stick shift because my dad drank, you know. Like, I had very, like, rural blue collar kind of seedy. Like, they should be a movie about it, actually.

You know, it's like a lot of that color is what I draw from. A lot of just people that work really hard and to make very little, you know. And so that's like the backdrop of core of me as a writer. That's where my work ethic, though. It's almost like I saw people bust their ass, but I also saw people not, you know, and just like spiral into really dark places. So, like, seeing both of those things is the core of me. like I'll never go there.

I know that's where I come from, but. It's so interesting when you said, avoiding sitting with the posh pit, which really like hits me, because that's where I try to sit. I know. I do, I mean, trust me, I love a good VIP. You know, you're going to the Greek tonight,

which, you know, has like the grass, the best posh areas. So, you know, when you say you're out of the, try to go sit where people are using their hard-earned money to, you know, to buy those tickets so that way you can, so you can feel, you know, what they're feeling, see what they're wearing, hear what they're talking about,

doing all those things. What lights their eyes up, what makes them want to hold their girlfriend a little closer, or all those little things. Did you ever feel like you were being pulled from your roots? The climb definitely was the wildest, card ever played. Like when I say I was writing at that time, I was, I had tried to do, when I moved to Nashville, people heard my voice and they were like, you should be an artist.

And I was like, really? I mean, you know how it is like starving artists. Like, I'll do anything. Like, just pay me a draw. And so I got a publishing deal and an artist deal. But very quickly, you could tell I wasn't the artist type. I wasn't driven to be an artist. I just. I just, didn't, they'd be like, what do you want to say? I'm like, I don't know. Like, I didn't have that part of me. And I hated to talk about myself and like prop myself up to be something. And so that fizzled out really fast. But when that happened, of course, you lose your record deal, you lose your publishing deal. And I was in no man's land for years. Just writing, no one really took me seriously because they always like a washed up artist, you know.

I couldn't get any good rights. And so when I wrote The Climb, like, that was such a random day. Like, it wasn't, I wasn't thinking anything. I did, when I heard the melody in my head on the drive there, I did remember thinking, this sounds classic and it sounds like epic or something. Wait, paint this picture. Yeah. Tell me about the full day.

What is the day that you wrote The Climb? Okay, the day is like another damn day. I'm just out of a deal, like kind of in the beginning of this new deal, Disney had signed me to their Nashville office, but I mean, it was like I feel like Lisa Ramsey kind of signed me as like a pity favor. Like she obviously saw something in me, but like I was not getting good rights anymore. And I was just floundering around. And that morning, me and my husband were we had just gotten married and we were starting to think about kids. My husband's an amazing songwriter. and he had just written in one song of the year for Whiskey Lullaby, which is a huge, huge hit. And he's crushing it in his career. And I kind of started going, I want, we're going to get married, and I kind of want to have kids. So maybe I should just back off of all this. And maybe, I mean, I've given it at that time, it been like eight years.

And I was like, maybe, I mean, I felt like that's maybe not what I'm supposed to be doing. So I was just kind of, I don't know what I was doing. I was kind of biding time until I got pregnant or something. You know, it just wasn't thinking about ever having a hit. I was really down, really dark. And I just drove into that day on my little civic. And I remember the radio was on and I turned it off. And I remember thinking, I've got to have an idea.

Because I had a new writer that I didn't know John Mabe was on my calendar. and I was like, I really got to come up with something. We had a female artist booked because I was starting to really try to show, look, I can write for other artists. I don't have to be the artist in the room. So anyway, I heard the melody in my head, just the chorus of the climb. And I just remember thinking, is that islands in the stream? Is that, what am I on? What is this?

And I just turned off the television, turn off the radio and didn't pick up my phone. and I was just like listening. And by the time I got to his office, I'm like busting through the door. I grabbed a guitar. I mean, I didn't even talk to him. I was like, I'm so sorry. Like, I just got to get your guitar. And I played the chorus, the melody of the climb.

And he's like, whoa, whoa. I was like, I know, I know. I just put, you know, he's putting garage band up. We're recording it. And about that time, the knock at the door and in walks the artist that has, I've never told who it was. But she walks in. And I'm excited because I've got an idea for this person. And she sits down and I'm like thinking I got a good one, you know?

And she says the fateful words, you know what? I have so many ballads. Like all I need is like a show opener, like a barn burner. And I look at him and like, I can't give, can't show her this. So she's going to hate this, you know. And we wrote, I got the guitar. I wrote like a shuffle, like bluesy shuffle. She was gone.

But the whole time we were writing, I was thinking about that song, you know, that I came in with. And after she left, I said, let's listen. But it was too late in the day for us to finish it. But I was like, send me that so I can just think about, think on it. And during that era, you've come to Nashville and I know y'all have the award shows, but we have like this whole awards week where it's like ASCAP Awards, BMI, CSEC, CMAs. And for a struggling writer that literally has nothing going on, it's like, It's torture to go to another award show and yet another year not getting an award.

And I was just in a dark place. I was happy for my husband. I was happy for my friends. But I was just like, why? Why do I have to be here all this time? And I don't want to go, you know, but I went that night. And I remember just standing there clapping for someone that had literally just moved to town and they were getting their first award. Was it?

I'm not telling you. Why? They would appreciate that. You're not saying anything. And it was just like, really? they just moved here. And at that, I didn't have the title of the climb, but at that moment, I remember thinking, but would you want it that way? And I honestly asked myself, would you want to roll into Nashville and it all just be there and then what? Or would you like the long, slow roll and the pay, the payment, you know, the payback when you get it and the underdog story and then the longevity. And I was like, I want to. that. And I remember logging that thought. And that's the same day that you or same week or whatever during that year. And then we got together. And John was an underdog as well. He had, he had been a song plugger at EMI. He

never had a hit, never even had a song recorded. So when we wrote that song, I promise you, there was no thought of it being a 17 week number one, like, change my life song. Hey guys, have you ever wanted to get further in the world of And The Writer is? Have you ever wanted to sit in that seat across from me? Well, guess what? You can now join the conversation. That's right, because we just launched our Patreon. You'll get access to our monthly Zoom hangs where we'll listen to demos, give feedback,

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I mean, I think a lot of us have songs that we really like that are on our computers that someday should be a hit somewhere. But that doesn't mean they ever get cut. Tell me about how the climb gets heard and how it gets cut. Yeah, it's a cool story. So we write it. And at that time, I hate singing so much because I'm told myself, like, no one's going to ever want to cut anything you're singing because I'd, like I said, been an artist. So I made him sing the vocal. But I did do one female version. Back then, we were doing a lot of versions. And it was a little more spiritual and had a little more gospel feel. Some of the lyrics were changed. It was actually written as third person. You can almost see it. That dream, your dream.

And it also had some, like, faith things in a topic. So anyway, we had our demo. And Lisa Ramsey, who I mentioned earlier, she found out that Disney was doing the Hannah Montana movie. And they were filming in Nashville. And she's like, wait a minute. You're going to come to my turf, Nashville, Tennessee, and film this movie.

but you're not going to use the Nashville songwriter songs? Like, she just couldn't imagine. So she went on her own and found the director of the movie, Peter Chisholm. She invited him over to the Nashville office to have, like, what we call a guitar pole, which he drink beer, play guitars, and around. And this guy was, he had, you know, fresh out of, he, like, had this British accent. He's from London. Never seen anything like this.

We're a bunch of redneck sitting around drinking literally Bud Light and playing guitars. and he just was really into my voice, which makes me want to cry because it makes me think about how much I hated my voice. And then that was the thing that he was like, I just love your voice so much. And I was like, thank you. You're so sweet. And he's like, would you please just, I don't want to go home without hearing your voice. Can you just put some songs on a CD so I can just listen to your to you sing? And I was like, okay, this is it. This is my moment because I don't have any pop songs. I don't even have kids. I don't know who hand them on. Tanna is, but if I want a song on this movie, I have to think real quick of what song do I have

that's remotely pop or young, you know? And I remember, oh, it's there's that, it's the climb song. And I put that on the CD and he went back to London. And then like maybe two weeks later, we get a phone call. And in his British accent, he says, darling, if you will rewrite the song, I'm going to rewrite the whole script. And it's going to be. around the climb. I mean, I have chills thinking about it because I thought, how sweet is this guy? Bless his heart. He doesn't know that that doesn't happen for people like me. Like, I've been here for a, you know, you know someone bigger, better is going to come take this slot. Because he's like, no, it's going to be the song. He kept comparing it to the Rose, that Miller, that movie. And I was like, yeah, I'm like, Peter, sorry, this is not going to happen. You know, thank you.

And everything he said would happen happened. And it just, it literally was surreal because during that time I got pregnant. And so as I'm preparing for, you know, my daughter to come, there's my dreams. I'm turning on pop radio and there's the climb. I'm turning on TV and there's the commercial for Hannah Montana movie. Like all these things are happening as I'm like, it literally in the hospital giving birth. she sang it on the President Obama inauguration fall. So it was like all my dreams came at one time. But your original question, though, was like, like, where have you had to pivot or, you know, it's like that.

I didn't consider myself a pop, young pop, you know, female songwriter growing up the way I did. But like, that was, I guess, the route that God used to get me into this job was that song. That's a fantastic story, and I would like that copyright. Okay. So does the artist who came in that wanted the barn burner that you gave the shuffle feel to, does that person know that that was a song? No. You've never let them know.

No. And they still have no idea. Do you ever see that person? Not really. Yeah. Mm-mm. It's a weird thing because, as I always say, if you want to know what it's like to be a songwriter,

walk into a room of people you don't know, sing at them and then ask what they think. Yeah, exactly. You know, it's super weird. And I think people think that it's a normal activity, but it's this vulnerable thing. I had a song that was a, you know, your story, not mine, but I had a song with Maroon 5.

That was a similar thing where I walk in, wrote the song, I have the voice note, the drive all the way to the session, and playing for this. Beryl in the door. Yeah, and played for his super producer and his super co-writer and they had

a lot of hits. And I sang it to them. I was saying at them and they were like, yeah, I don't know. I'm not really feeling it. And I had a double that day and that night I brought it to one of my, you know, now dearest, dearest, dearest friends, co-writers. And I

sang it to me. He's like, this is great. And he did a version of it And Emeroon 5 was recording that night. And so they played Max walks in. He's EP in the album at the time. Here's the song. This is Day of. And Adam came in and cut the song.

And it was like the same thing where I walk in. Earlier in the day was so like, how do you guys not hear it? I also did think, you know, I've been, when you say the different versions, I have many examples of the. thinking that it's for a man and that a female cuts it because it gives it's empowering from her perspective. And similarly thinking it's for a female and a male artist cutting it. Right. Because it gives them vulnerability when they're so used to the other thing. So if you can't figure out what to do during a day of writing, just take one of your songs and change the perspective of it.

that might be really valuable. Absolutely. Or change third person to first person. Yeah. There's so many little tricks. When you said that the climb was initially spiritual, are you religious? I'm very spiritual. Yeah.

Yeah. How often do you find spirituality to be the inspiration to your writing? Probably 100%. Oh, wow. Yeah. Even when I'm writing. something that's, you know, you would probably say, I don't know how you'd put that in a spiritual box, but I really feel like, God, my higher power, like I said, like literally gave, like, this isn't

just a job. And there's been other songs that I can, like, I drive your truck there's like, this is like my purpose. This is my life purpose. There's a reason why I wasn't, you know, an artist is because I really needed to be where I'm at. Because I try to really use this as not just a moneymaking. It's like I want to inspire people. I want to make people feel seen and heard. And so I take it very serious as a not just a job, but as like a lot of my life's work is to share the gift that God gave me, you know, every day.

And going to that award show and thinking, man, that long road is what it's going to be rewarding is inspirational. And I, you know, that, it's hard, it's hard not to envy the person who shows up and just cranks out hits. But if you don't have that foundation of struggle, you know, I think a lot of the people, if success has 10,000 or a thousand fathers and failure has none, when you have a moment like the climb, I imagine a lot of people were like, I always knew you had it in you. Oh, or what was worse was like, oh, see, you, you.

weren't a country rider. You should have been doing film and television. And like, I was so confused because I was like, wait, what, what am I? You know? So it didn't solve all your issues. It didn't. It really actually complicated. And Nashville didn't claim it. You know, they were kind of like, oh, see, yeah, you should be out there. You know, you. Did you have direct conversations, other people you're thinking of specifically? Just, I remember, you know, the gatekeepers in Nashville at that time that I couldn't get arrested with, you know, I couldn't get any songs in those camps or in that, those labels. I thought, see, I can have a hit. Invite me to your party. And it just didn't get me in any big rooms in Nashville. It didn't help break down any, I felt like everyone was happy for me, for sure. Nashville was happy for me. But it was more like, yeah, go do that, you know. And I'm like, wait a minute. Like, that's not really what I, do and I enjoyed those that first couple years after the climb I you know got to write for like

a Celine Dion record I wrote for Princess in the Frog or Tingerbell or like Hannah Montana the finale like I had some really great songs a part of that but and my core I mean I've told you who my influences are like yeah it's hard to you know what I mean I'm William Sr. and then you're you know I'm not able I can I mean I can only rhyme wings and dreams so many times you know like I knew like I know. If you're a Disney writer, though, then, you know, that's a valuable rhyme scheme. And it was great. Like I said, God used it to get me to the game.

But then it was, like, the real work. Because then I had to prove to everyone, no, really. I can get in these other rooms. And I can write for Blake Shelton or Dirk Spently or. Did you have to hide that you wrote the climb? Were there times where not that you were embarrassed of it, but were there times where you strategically kept that away from conversations? Not so much. I think the biggest challenge I had when I realized right away

was I just I can't sing in the room if I'm going to try to write men's songs. I'm going to have to, I'm going to have to, you know, get these guys singing. And I have a big range as a singer and I learned really quick like there's things I just can't do if we're writing for these type of artists that don't sing not like like shelton obviously but um no but i i drive your truck is our long legato notes in an era you know the pop version of it that i always think is funny is that if people did you know dolly part and i will always love you'd be now it'd be like and i i always love love you nobody holds notes totally and you got these men to sing i'm a singer singer but you know that's so yeah that's again one of the

those Nashville rules that are broken. Yeah. How do you get Lee Bryce to actually sing? Yeah. It's long notes. I think it's finding not so much. They're stretching them. It's finding like, I remember with like a Morgan Wallin's song, like I know what a great

singer he is. So I know that he could do the flip. He could do the falsetto flip. So intentionally put that and don't think Jesus. I like to find what is this artist not done? What a part of their toolbell? have they not used? What does the crowd not know that they can do?

And that might be recitate like an old country songs. Riley Green just did it with Ella Langley where they talk. Like that's a trick. Or I might think, do people know how low this guy sings? He can read like a great baritone. I do a lot of homework before I write. That's how I had the Coleswindle, Laney Wilson, duet, was because it dawned on me the morning we wrote that he'd never sang with a female.

So I was like, okay, how am I, every day I'm like, how can I be used here? And that was the day I was like, okay, well, I can sing the female part. And he needs a, he needs to have a duet, you know. So did you call Lainey? I mean, who, how does that song? Tell me about the day that you guys write that song. Yeah, we're on a tour bus.

And like I said, I had that title, never say never, just in my phone. And we wrote a really neat duet where it's like, you sing a line, I sing a line, you back and forth. instead of verse, chorus, second verse, you know. And it was really fun. And we literally had it written out like a script because it was so complicated. And then I sang the demo. And what was hard about that was at that time, all the females that we wanted to use or Cole wanted to use had just done a big hit

or couldn't get the clearance with their label or whatnot. So that song sat there for about two and a half years. but our pluggers at the time, Anna Wise Band and Rusty Gadsden, they loved that song and they're like, one day we're going to get the right artist. And I give them the credit for just knowing we've got Cole's vocal, we just need the right female. And at that time, Lainey, who I'd already been writing with and I'm watching her, she just had her first hit with Things a Man ought to Know. It was just perfect timing.

Again, it's like, that's always the story of my career. It's like I always have to be patient because it always works out. Yeah. You know what I mean? It helps to have, it helps to be prolific to have a lot of songs out there. And, you know, with that expression of people overestimate what you can do in a year and underestimate what you can do in a decade. Yeah.

That those things do have, things have a way of working out if you're patient enough. Yeah. It's just hard, though, you know, not to go back to the, The eight years you gave before the climb. There are a lot of moments there where you can give up. Is there a moment where you thought it was going to work, but it just didn't? No. I mean, it was like a downhill spiral, a really long...

How do you get signed initially? I just... Tell me about moving to Nashville. Yeah, well, I am... Luckily, you know, I'm from two and a half hours away, so, like, it's not a... Yeah. You either go to Memphis or you go to Nashville. And so I went to MTSU, the college, outside of Nashville, and I was floundering around.

You were probably there when Luke Laird was there. Yeah, we were there together. Did you guys write together when you were there? I was a social work major. And because at that time, there were only options were you had to be in the engineering program, like a sound engineer or a music business. And I mean, I can't even, you know, balance a checkbook. So I was like, I'm not either of these people.

So I'm a social work major over here. But everyone would hire me to come sing the background vocals or sing, you know, they're for their demos. And that's where I met some of those guys. But I was taking a music business class and the teacher called me to class after. I've been there four years. And he called me to class after class, he said, Jesse, I've never said this to a student, but I think you need to quit school.

And I was like, whoa. was like, you're a social work major? Like, look, where were you last night? I was like, the blue bird. And it was like, you need to go. And so I did. I was like, I just needed someone to tell me that. And I did.

And right away, I got a backup singing. I thought I'd be a backup singer. That's really what I first moved to town for because that's what I was doing in bands and stuff. And I got a job pretty quick. But it was like Cinderella story. And then got, like I said, every, One thing led to another.

People would hear my voice. I got the deal. But then I got trapped in a lot of mergers and record label, you know, all this stuff that was going on. And what I was doing at that time as an artist was probably where like a Casey Musgraves or Chris Stableton kind of singer-songwritery more like that. But at that time, it wasn't that kind of music. So, and like I said, it is what, 2002-ish? It was, yeah. It was like 2005 when my record came out.

And like I said, it was just this person signed me and then this guy left. I mean, it was just a mess. The dysfunction that you had in your family and then going to college and then not finishing college, was that hard for your family? It really wasn't, I mean, because college was kind of far-fetched. Like I said, a lot of people in my family are like carpenters and trade people, you know. so college was already a big deal. I will say that everyone in my family knew that I was going to do this. Yeah, it was just a matter of when you were going to do.

Yeah. When your album comes out, my first album came out in November of 2004. Okay. My first major label album. And it was, it probably should have come out 18 months before that or, you know, a year before that. but similar thing, people kept moving. And by the time it comes out, it comes out on the, like, just a terrible day for it to come out. It was just not good time.

It was just everything happened that shouldn't have happened. And you're sitting there, you're like, man, I put in all this work. Yeah. And I think when you're early in your career, you feel, I'm going to say entitled. That's not really the right word. But there's an element of it being kind of easy as far as you go, you, the, leave college, you get gigs, you get a record deal, and you have an album release. And yeah, it's dysfunctional within the label and people moving around. But album's still going to come out.

Things are still going to work out. I've seen that happen. Oh, totally. So the album comes out, what happens? It's just like, well, I have a label mate. I was on Columbia. And at the same time, because there was two launching pads for like two promo teams, radio. And so you could launch two singles at the same time. And the same week that mine's being launched is Redneck Woman, Gretchen Wilson. So like, the whole world changed. Yeah, right. Like, I mean, just blew me out of the water. I mean, I'm over here singing like cool, like Cheryl Crow, like, you know, whatever. I mean, it was like the Redneck woman and that movement began. And what I was doing was so different than that. And so it was just like, man, it was dark. It was just really, I just, I can't say enough, like, how I just

wasn't cut out to be an artist. I can remember it be on at radio stations and be like, who's the hottest guy in country music? And I'd be like, Chris Christofferson? Like, I didn't know how to play the game, you know, I didn't, now I work with artists every day and I'll marvel at them because they know how to say and how to, they know what they need, you know, and I just wasn't cut out for it. And I was also bored. I didn't like singing the same song every night. I love traveling. I love being on a bus, all that. But I love to wake up every day

and with a blank piece of paper. That excites me. Well, yeah. And, you know, writing a song for Miranda Lambert versus Blake Shelton is such a different day. So fun. And you get to shed who you are and be somebody else for a day.

It's hard to explain how fun that is if you're not. It's so fun. You know, if you're not in it. But I know I'm all over the place. It's okay. But after the climb, you end up getting into the Blake Shelton world and you end up having hits. So it wasn't that long of this, you know, the getting some respect from the country world. Yeah, it still is a couple years and, you know, and some re-educating.

Plus your... A new mom. Yeah, you know, your... Postpartum and, like, whatever that is, you're not having a... You have a child. Yeah. Was there ever a moment where you're like, okay, I now have like the world's biggest smash. It's hard to beat that.

And I have a daughter. Yeah. And you're not sleeping and all those things. Like, what's the process for a new mom to get back into a songwriting game that is fairly aggressive? Yeah. And it's like, no one's, you know, sending you flowers for leaving. Like, people are like, next. Like, you know, you definitely, I felt like, like,

if I leave, no one's going to miss me. You know, like, they'll just put someone else in my spot and move on. Like, I felt like I could not take my foot off the gas. And it was really complicated because, you know, you have, like, all these doors opening, you know, that you want to take advantage of. But I'm very committed to my role as a mother. Like, I wanted to kill it. Like, I want to be a great mom, you know? So it was hard.

Those years had all these opportunities. I mean, I remember getting opportunities to write in London and out here and just like a big artist and whatnot. But I just had to prioritize really what the life I wanted to have and what kind of mother I wanted to be. And that's when I kind of said, you know, I thank you. Because at that point, I was out of Disney, maybe at Cobalt at the time. And I just remember thinking, like, as much as I love to write out here in London or just because I do, I love film and television. I like trying all these different things. I just got to focus on country music.

because that day is pretty easy. You know, you wake up, I get my daughter off to school or whatever, daycare at the time. Then I go right and then I pick her up, you know. And I have a pretty, there's a lot of people, moms at school that don't know what I do, you know, because I'm there. I'm able to be there for a lot of school stuff. And because I, so right after, though, to answer your question, I was like kind of getting my feet wet, trying to be a working mom, you know, being home with her. and then we got pregnant with twins. And so I'm like, okay, wow, this is a whole other game change.

But like I said, like God is good. Like right when I think, how am I going to do this? Like, how I'm going to have three kids under the age of three? That's when the era of like, I drive your truck and mine would be you and drink on it and like a whole other run of songs. And it was weird as I constantly felt like babies are a blessing, you know, for me. in my career. They've just been nothing but a blessing. NMPA is our lead sponsor yet again.

What is the National Music Publishers Association? What do publishers have to do with songwriters anyway? Well, unlike artists who can be unsigned artists, there is no such thing as an unsigned writer. You can be a self-published, a co-published or a published writer. Publishers only make money if songwriters make money. So NMPA goes in fights for you. They go to Congress, they go and support,

the community. They fight DSPs to get you paid more. That's what they do. They fight for you and they fight for this podcast. So thank you for fighting for songwriters NMPA. Thank you for us too. I find being a dad makes me ultra efficient. Yes. Because I don't have time to do a lot of the other stuff that you used to do. And I also think I get cut out of certain worlds because I can't go party with you. I can't do the dinners. I could, but I'm not going to. And I don't want to spend all night here. I want to be home for dinner. I want to take my kids to school, all those things. And also rocking your kids to sleep and doing all that can be a very cathartic time where I'm writing a lot of lyrics and ideas and going to my phone and doing stuff. But that string of

hits is not by accident. And it's really hard to do that even when that's all you have to do. Yeah. Why do you think you had the string of not just hits? These are like career makers. Yeah. You know, what was it, how were you able to balance being a mom and being, you know, just maybe the world-class songwriter of country during this era? So hard. I mean, a lot of trying to stay in the, like, boys club, trying to, like, you know, trying to.

you know, trying to appear like, oh, no, I can hang, you know. I mean, it wasn't graceful all the time during chronic migraines. And that's a whole other story. But like I lived a lot of years in chronic pain. So, I mean, I can remember just being on a bus, like with a migraine, like trying to write a song, trying to hang, trying to stay up late. But then taking the red eye home so I could be there for someone to wake up, you know, just it wasn't healthy.

There was a lot of years of just run and frazzled. I don't know if I did it very graceful. I remember feeling like, and I wrote about it in a song that I put out called Mama Drink, where it's like when I was being a good mama, I felt like I wasn't being very good at my work. And when I was at work, killing at work, I felt like I wasn't being a good mom. Like there were many years of that. And, you know, I beat myself up over that.

But it all come, you know, my kids are fine. Yeah, right. It's all good, but it was definitely frazzled. And I just, there were years, though, because I went a period where all the hits stopped. And it was like, like 2015 to 2020 was tough. And I had to reinvent myself again. You know, so I feel like it's always been like a little, if I imagine myself during this, I'm like walking on heels, but I'm stumbling, you know.

Do you think the people you were celebrating during those eight years when you were saying, you know, you're going to these award shows and you're clapping for some of your friends and your husband and all these people. From 2009 to climb through 2015 are just, you know, legendary hits. Were those people cheering for you? Who the artists?

I don't know those people. I think so. Nashville definitely, I mean, I don't know if you feel like when you come, but there's that community, you know, there's definitely some that that you know aren't rooting for you. But I definitely have always felt the love from Nashville, especially my crew, you know. There's definitely those people that I, that aren't fans.

But for the most part, I do feel the love. And especially we've all kind of worked together in some capacity. Yeah. It's a small town or used to be. But, you know, you kind of all work together somewhere or you got a publishing deal together or whatnot. So 2015 to 2020, why did the doors close? I don't know. It was really weird.

It felt like just the water turned off. And I wasn't doing anything. As a writer or the songs coming out? The songs just getting, like, I would get songs cut, like the way I talk with Morgan Wallin, but it would die at 30, you know. Like, I would get these songs recorded, but it just, it. It was weird. I mean, you know, I think I've changed publishing deals. I'm sure that I can't remember all the dates and details. But I was working as hard as ever. I don't know. I mean, it could have been just a headspace. It could have been also what was going on in country music. Like I said, right now in the last five years with someone like Luke Holmes came to town. I was like, yes. I know, I mean, I know exactly what to do. You know, maybe that era, there were some artists that I just didn't. you know, have as much to give to. I don't know. That's a good question. What's advice you give to a writer that is, that's had hits but doesn't have hits now? Oh, yeah. I heard someone,

I think it was Eric Church recently talking about this. I really believe that if you want to be a songwriter like and not go crazy, you have to get used to the highs and the lows and the peaks in the valleys. Like if you're someone that needs like, you know, killing it all the time, rolling sevens, you know, it's going to be a hard run. You know, for me, like when I told you I made that decision, like, I want the long haul. I've found that I'm okay to kind of settle in and go, okay, well, it's hard though. Year three, you start going, you know, at year five, I was like really worried. But I can handle the, the heartbrain. a little more, maybe, because I've just had my heartbroken so much by the business.

But yeah, I think you just got to really just keep grinding and just almost like don't look up. Just stay in the zone. Just keep riding. Write your way through it. It's interesting because, you know, having, you know, Morgan Wallen songs and Luke Combs songs in this part that you're thinking of as a lull is an interesting thing. your bar ends up getting set really high. And I think that's another part is a song coming out on an album that's great. You're like, okay, that's fine. A song that might even be a moderate hit, you're like, okay. Yeah, right.

It's hard when your bar is higher. What is, what does a song have to do for you to feel like it achieves your best? It's a really good question. And I thought of this when 8 and 11 Oklahoma, I had out with Luke Holmes two years ago. And it is, to answer your question, like, it did all the things. So it got to write it for a movie, which I love. I love writing for film. So it got to be in the Twister movie.

It also went on to be on a radio hit. It went number one, a country charts. Amazing. It got nominated for a Grammy for Best Song and a Motion Picture. and then like my kids laugh It went viral You know like it's played on the Oklahoma Like football team

Like it's just one of those songs It's like that to me is ringing all the bells Um Do your... And I love the song Do your kids listen to your music? I mean, tears Like you know

Like they They tolerate it You know They're excited I'm fortunate that the age of my kids Like my daughter 17 Like she is the Megan Moroni demographic. So like that's been really fun. It's like to her girlfriends, like, I'm pretty cool.

You know, like to have the songs that like her friends are listening to Megan Maroney's music. And so I love, and I feel like I have a really good perspective when I do write with Megan because I'm raising a daughter that's, you know, not far off from the people that she's singing to. So yeah, my kids definitely listen. They'll get excited when I'll play on my song, like the song I have. out right now with Riley Green think as I drunk. They remember the work tape, the day that we wrote it, I played it for them. I was like, y'all got to tell me this is not a hit, you know, and pick them up from school. And they were already singing the chorus by the third chorus.

They had memorized it. It was just one of those songs. I was like, it's got to be a hit, right? And so they get excited to hear, like, it now being on the radio. But it's got to be weird for them, you know, because it's probably like normal to them. but like surreal, I don't know. Yeah, I play my, my kids hear me writing songs, but they're also so young. They're so young.

Yeah. But, you know, we had our billboard in Times Square last week, and they came to New York, and we showed, you know, to have them see that. It was like, for me and my wife was really important to them. It was like, this checks out. Yes. Of course you're on this billboard right now. You're like, that's not normal, but that's cool.

Yes. My son did say something along the lines of, I want to be on a billboard. And I was like, that's cool. He's like, can you buy me one or type thing? Or can you order me one? Can you order me one? You're like, well, it doesn't totally work that way, but you can get there. It's just, I don't, this is not how I expected to get there.

Anyway, this is a separate story. But I want to know the story a little bit about ain't no love and over. Oklahoma because it's obviously what you were talking about. It checked all the boxes, but the day you write that song still, there's no guarantee. So tell me about the day that you write in Oklahoma. So Jonathan Singleton, Luke Combs producer is an old friend of mine. He's also from Jackson, Tennessee. And we had written for the Angry Birds movie.

So I wrote Angry Birds one with Lake Shelton and then Angry Birds 2 with Luke. And so when they got approached to write for the Twister movie, I was like, they called me, which is great. But there was a huge snowstorm, an ice storm coming through Nashville. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, I'm not missing this right. I don't care how I get there. I have to get out. And of course, Jonathan lives way out in the country. So me and Luke met at this McDonald's and, like, drive in on chains just to get out to Jonathan's house.

I mean, it's crazy. But we sat down and they had a lot of. of that going the track for it and I was just blown away. I mean, it's such an aggressive track and Luke had already talked to the director and the producers and knew what they needed and it was just an easy write. And what was so neat is, you know, y'all's time change with LA. We were able to write the song at 11 o'clock our time. So we just sent it in and waited until y'all woke up the LA office woke up and we were able to sit there and write a whole other song

which wound up making it on his next record what was that song it's called um oh boy you put me on spot um well is it on his fathers and sons records um I have to think on it but uh the director right away it's like y'all nailed it and we're like it's just that easy and Luke went in there and sang it and killed it yeah he's so good he's so good Also former guests on this podcast.

Yes. Shout out Luke. And Megan Roney. Yes, I saw her. And my favorite Olivia Dean. I'm a huge van. She's great. No Caller ID is fantastic.

Thank you. That's a good song. Thank you. That's a really fun song. Writing with what I like about, you know, when you're talking about the world, those eight years of figuring out what you're doing and that there wasn't. the kinds of artists that you like. It feels like Megan's on the, lyrically in the same space as these grittier writers

and sonically very sheen compared to, you know, some of that. And so it's cool to see even the, the cleaner version of female country now is risky and it's exciting. Yes. But as you're saying, working with all these men, what separates Megan Maroney from other female artists? I mean, she is such a great songwriter by herself.

She genuinely is so good with words, and she knows exactly what her audience wants to hear, and she knows how to, like, I love her relationship with her fans. It's kind of like Taylor. You know, she just knows what they've, grown up together. They're growing up together. And I have so much trust when she has a line because she'll be like, oh, my fans will get this. I'm like, okay, you know, I trust you. She's so witty. She listened to a lot of Casey. And we have a lot of, I think, some of the same influences.

And she's just, she's just great with words, lyrics. She trusts me to do my thing. And it's just a great right. She's just a great songwriter. When you write, do you start? with concept first, melody first. You said the climb started with melody first. That's been with a melody. Are you a concept first or a melody first writer? I'm both. Definitely both, all the above.

Like, never say never was just a title. You know, so many times I just am kind of winging it and walking in the room and I don't typically have a lot of concepts. I would say that's my weakest link. Like, I genuinely need more concept writers because I feel like I'm best when I'm in the director role where I'm like, I see the whole picture.

Like mine would be you is just a title in Connie's phone. And I saw the whole thing. I saw so much more than we even wrote in the song. Like I saw the full movie. I saw the relationship. I saw the breakup. You know, so I'm, I think I'm best in that role when I, like, an editor and I kind of help people get there.

But definitely we'll walk in the room with a melody or a concept for sure. It's just, every day is a different day for me. Have you ever tried, actually, when you say you feel like you're sort of the director, have you ever tried, and your dad's an artist, you know, have you ever tried directing? No, but I was telling a friend that when we got here to town, I was like, there was in those, those, it was actually 10 years till I finally had the hit was like the came out. So a full 10 years of floundering, there was this, little moment where I thought about being a screenwriter.

And I came out here and I had a couple like, I took a couple people to coffee, I can't remember who was at the time. But I was very interested in screenwriting. I love... Did you ever do it? No, I still don't know how to do it. And still, I would put that on like a bucket list.

Like, if I could just be in a room one day with a screener, I'd love to watch how they work. And I don't know a lot of actors. I'm not necessarily interested in that. I love filmmaking. And I love screenwriting. And I'm always like when I'll watch movies, I just listen to the words. The way, you know, they probably listen to songs.

I've written a couple book lyric and music musicals. I work a lot in musicals. But one of them which has a good amount of dialogue, part of the reason why I got involved in the writing books, one was by accident because it was just a concept album that became something bigger. But the other one was, it was the beginning of COVID, and we just didn't have any book writers. But we had the, you know, we had the, you know, we had the theater. We had the director.

We had the whole thing. But I was just like, let me just try. Yeah. But there wasn't this. Then I got in this fear once you start, like, what am I doing? And then you start working like out, like really detailed outlines. And then it's not dissimilar. I think if you do all this homework when you're going into sessions.

But if you went in and it's not just writing the title, it's not just writing the concept. It's writing the concept. And then, okay, what's the motivation of this song? And then how do I structure it where the chorus is going to be, you know, if the chorus is the title and your pre-courses, sort of how to get there and your verses are the, you know. I think that I would like it because I already write like that.

I already write very. I think about the whole, like, the second someone tells me a title or a concept, I and anyone that writes with me knows, like, I have to know all the part, the motivation, where we're going, how we're going to get. Like, I have to know the whole story. And the second I see it, it's like a dog with a bone. And it's like, I'm in, you know. The hard part is the buy-in for a song is you show up.

And when you don't nail it, you go home still. Yeah. And you still might have had a good day. Yeah, be like, oh, he didn't really get it. But the buy-in for writing a script is you're going to have a few of those days, but it's going to take you months. And then you go and you show somebody, and they're going to be like, me.

And you spent so much time on it. And you spent so much time. So you have to just keep going. And you have to, I respect those guys. You know, and also when you're a songwriter, you own your copyrights. Right. And when you're a screenwriter, you sell your copyrights. You know, the studio buys the ability.

to exploit this copyright. You have no say. They can buy it and then they could find some other screenwriter to change it and you get no royalties unless it's in your contract.

Wow. So the screen actors is not screen actors, the Writers Guild, the Writers Guild, they, you know, they're a union

because they're not independent contractors like songwriters. We can't unionize because we all own our copyrights. But those people are work for hire, especially if you're,

You work on a TV show, you know, you own nothing. You show up there and you write, but you own nothing. If you're an author, you own it. If you're a screenwriter, you own it until you sell it. You don't have this ongoing royalty. Yeah. It's also different. Nobody's remaking your script.

Yeah, totally. The way that they would have sung. The climb's been remade a thousand times. And every single time, you get paid because you are the IP owner. That's right. It's just a different situation. It's just neat. I think that I've got a lot of respect for screenwriters.

When you get nominated for a songwriter of the year, did that make sense? I mean, it made sense to us, the voters. It made sense to us who are involved in the thing. Like, of course. But to go from, you said that, well, you know, talking about the climb, like, this isn't supposed to happen. Yeah.

Just a little. Yeah. And then, you know, you're the best at what you do. I still feel that. I still feel that way for sure. I mean, I definitely keep a very real life. I tend to go back home a lot. And like I'm around, yes, I'm around a lot of famous people, very talented people, very accomplished people. But I'm also, I try to keep it very real. A lot of my friends or nurses or just common folk, you know. So I, it definitely feels weird to be on the Grammy stage in any way, you know, and just, you know, you feel like, am I deserving of this? But I do feel like, you know, I've definitely worked hard. And it does feel good to be acknowledged for sure. But I try not to put too much merit and stuff like that. It's just like, you know, a lot of people could be like, oh, done, you know, and I'm like next. Like, what's the next thing? You know, like, I don't want to get too caught up in it. Do you have any imposter syndrome? I mean, maybe, don't we all? Right? Like, I definitely feel like sometimes, like, it hurts when you know that there's someone back home that's a great,

great singer, too, or a great songwriter too, you know. But I also heard Billy Strings did an incredible interview one time where they, he has imposter syndrome. And they were like, you know, how do you work through it? He said, I had a therapist one time asked me like, well, how many people back home were good singers and guitar players and good with money and good with people and good, you know, and worked every day and didn't show up late. Like when you start adding all that up, you realize, okay, that's why I'm here is all those things. And so I've tried to give myself some grace there. Yeah, earned.

And I think that there's this weird, this weird feeling of, you know, wherever today is in looking at a career that spans longer than that first cut, you know, from, you know, when you look at that whole thing, and some of it's just in awe of the fact that this is how it rolled out. It's crazy. You know, you've obviously worked with a million amazing artists, but Morgan Wallen is now the top of the world. Yeah. What is it about Morgan Wallen that makes him great? He's so authentic. Like, I mean, you can just stand at this coffee pot with him and just be like, you're so you.

Like, he's not trying to be anybody else. He's got so much charisma and just star power. Just being around him, that was the first feeling I got. And, I mean, he had just come off the voice. I mean, he had nothing going to even have a record deal yet. Like, and I could feel it just being around him. I mean, you know, when you're like around someone, you know, like, this is a star. I could just feel that sense.

The other thing that people don't, I don't know if they really realize what a great singer he is. And I didn't even really until he cut Don't Think Jesus. I was like, whoa, because that's a full octave. Like, because I wrote it with a guy. So, like, I would sing one part and we'd flip up. And, I mean, but Morgan just without even trying can sing it. He's a great singer. and he's just he's really just real.

You know, he sings about stuff that he knows. And I'm very drawn to artists that are like that. I've learned that. And usually with my publisher, that's one of the questions I ask is like, you know, are they authentic? Like, who are they? Do they know who they are?

Because I can almost roll with anybody as long as they know who they are. But if they're coming to me to help create them or like brand them or help them, I'm just not your girl. There's some great writers. that are good at that. That's, I tend to get excited about what you're excited about. And I'm like, ooh, let's write about that, you know, even though I might not know what the hell they're

to even talking about, but if it excites them, that excites me. And so Morgan's very much like that. I mean, whether he's rapping or if it's dirt country or if he wants to do a Jason Nisbel song or like, you can tell, like he's got his hands on it. That's a, first of all, the skill of no, you said, well, you know, you know what that's like when you're around somebody who has the it thing. I actually don't think that that's normal. Even amongst the best songwriters, producers, A&R people, if it was normal, everyone would be in the room with the right people.

But you're actually putting in the sweat equity with the Luke Combs and with the Morgan Wallens of the world. And, you know, you're there early. I'm there early in the basement. That's really, that's not a normal skill. Yeah. That is like a really advanced skill. Really?

Yeah. Well, I probably miss a lot of them. I mean, there's a lot of artists I miss because I didn't, it wasn't there. in the beginning. But I tend to, like, when I met Lainey Wilson, I was like, you're my sister. Like, we felt like we were related. Like, and a lot of these artists, a lot of them I just really relate to you right now on country music. And they feel like kindred spirits. Lany is so cool. She's the best. She's so fun. It's a, it's like this intimidating cool. She's so cool. what makes Lainey so special in a crowded space like the music industry right now?

Yeah, just that authenticity again. And she just, she's so humble and so endearing. I mean, everything from her accent to her, I mean, she's just, it doesn't matter how big she gets, how many private planes or awards. When you talk to Lainey, she's looking you dead in the eye and she, like, sees your soul. Like she is just a soulful person And I'm so excited The world sees it

What I'd always seen You know That's what's so fun about our job As you start in the beginning with these people And It's been wild It's a wild to watch What it's going on with Riley Green

I mean we've I've been riding with him Since he was Making little YouTube videos And now He's on the voice Like it's so wild that we're here I saw it all along

Yeah that's just not a normal skill Really? Yeah, I wish it was. Because I'm not bad at it, but that's exceptional. If you do it once in your career, if an A&R person does that once in their career, they're set for life. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? And you're talking about, you know, these people finding someone on YouTube or somebody who just left the voice, these are not people that you bank on most of the time. And most publishers are probably not even pushing you to write with them. Yeah. They're just so talented, though. And I feel like on our right in the first, first time in the room with him, you're like, whoa. Like, okay. Do you always do reconnaissance for your schedule? I do really try to you. I'm so embarrassed if I don't because I don't like to not know where all the bodies are buried.

Like I would, I know the songs you've written. You know what I mean? It's important to me to know. That's scary. No, but I just mean, or like when I write with someone, I would be mortified if I was like, let's write you a patriotic song. you're like, yeah, my last single was born in the USA. Or something, you know, like, I would, that's rude.

You know, it's like, I want to make sure they know, like, your time's valuable. My time's valuable. It's amazing how much the artists are surprised when you do any homework. And you're like, no, I listened to your music before. Yeah. I tried to do that even with, you know, with the interviews, make sure that I'm listening to. Sure, you try. It's a lot.

It's a lot. But I do you try to do recon and I try, like I said, to find the weak spot where, can I get in what is not being said what like it would kill me to know that like you're sitting with this artist and let's say they have a they have this other side of them that you're like why have you never exposed that let's write that I drive your truck we we haven't talked enough about oh man because here you're talking about you know uh obviously the client mine would be a lot of these are these are massive songs but I drive your truck is one of those infuriating songs for a writer who's like,

oh, of course, of course. How is it? You know, it's sort of in this, this, like, this, um, uh, the house that built me kind of thing where you're like, yeah, yeah. I mean, we all, how did we not all write some of these songs? Like, what, what happened? How do you write, how do you write that song?

How do you, who? How does that even come out? Yeah. Well, and when it's written, It's like, yeah, there's so many things that are going to work against that song, even if it's great. Yeah. Tell me about the journey of I drive your truck. I'd love to.

It's really probably my favorite story of all my songs. So I was pregnant with the twins, just thinking I'm probably never going to write again, you know, because I already have this toddler. I mean, I got twins coming. I'm like, I'm just working through my calendar till my due date. And I had on my book that day, Connie Harrington, who I went on later to write, mine would be you with as well. But this is me and her. It's just a two-way. It's just me and another girl.

And I'm thinking, why am I even really? I'm pregnant. It's hot. It's July or June. I'm like, I don't even want to go to work. Try to explain what that. We just went through that. So, like, explain what that is for all the men out there who have no idea what it's like to be pregnant.

Explain what being pregnant in June or July is like. Twins. With twins. Well, first of all, you have a million high-risk appointments. So, like, every day I only can be there a certain because you have to really make sure that the babies are growing at the same rate and all this very specific. So I'm hot. I'm swollen. I'm so massive.

Like, I'm probably 280 pounds. That's what I feel at least. Nothing fits. I'm hot. I'm tired. I'm exhausted. And I see Connie Herington in my book, which you could easily go. she'd be fine if I canceled.

You know, she's a girl, she gets it. But I'm such a workhorse. When in doubt, just go to work. You know, I'm just very my work ethics high. And so when we sat down that day, and like I said, that's the arrow that I was like, I'm not writing any more female songs. Like, I really want to get on these guys records. And so I was like, I'm not singing.

And she was like, well, I'm not singing. So I was like, well, I don't know what we're going to do today then. And so I was like, well, let's just. talk. So we start talking and she's like, well, I did have this idea that was haunting me. And she pulls out this post-it note. That's where she keeps all her song titles. And she starts to tell me the story that she was driving home the day before on Memorial Day and she was listening to NPR. And it was a special about basically a dad that was trying to get flags placed on his son's grave and other people's graves. And she said, I just caught the tail end of it. And then she starts to just weep.

And I'm like, well, what's the title? And she's like, well, I don't really have the title, but he said, and she'd start crying again. And this takes like 20 good minutes for me to finally get her to say. He basically, the interviewer said, well, what do you want to do to honor your son today for Memorial Day? And he said, I just have no idea what to do but drive his truck. That's all, that's the only way I feel him. And Connie just, she's crying. I'm crying. I'm pregnant, hormonal.

And I'm like, we are absolutely writing this song, you know. And I was flooded with visions of my granddaddy's truck in Jackson, Tennessee, where my, my mom, when we lost him, I was at 10. It was tragic. He was killed in a car accident. She kept his truck parked in the driveway. And every summer I'd go back and I could go get in the truck. And he was a carpenter, his tool belt, and his change in the ashtray.

and all my little granddaddy, I could get there. I could smell him still and feel him still. And so I immediately went to that truck. And I was like, I know the truck. It's a 1986 era, you know. And we just start going, a lyric, lyric, lyric. She's writing, her dad was a P-O-W in Korea. So, like, we definitely could draw in a lot for us.

But I kept hitting this place every time she'd want me to pick up the guitar to sing. And I was like, I just, I don't trust myself. This is a guy song. And I said, we have to call in a writer. We just have to. And this is where I really hope people think, you know, it can be, you can be stingy with an idea and be like, oh, it could be a two-way right now. But I hope people hear me say, like, sometimes it's better to, if you're not getting it done, call in the third, call in the fourth, call in the tenth, whatever it takes to get the song. That's what I believe, at least. And that day, we made the right decision and we called Jimmy Uri. And, um, he came in the next time we got together and he had the most beautiful melody kind of going and he got it and we just we wrote the song and it was truly magical um that moment we didn't care if it ever was recorded we knew we had nailed whoever said those words on npr we nailed it and so um we wrote the song and our our plugger rusty gadsden was like this is song of the year and we're like your lips to god's ears you know like go make it happen and he did he He pitched to Lee Bryce, who was not even looking for a ballad. Lee Bryce cut it. It went to number one.

But the really fun part of the story that means so much to me is that when we have number one parties in Nashville, they give you plaques and you give speech and all this. But we were like, there's no way we're going to have a number one party if we don't find the guy that said that. So we went through, you know, hours and hours and hours of NPR tape looking for this and finally found him. and we found the episode. We went online and we zoomed in and there was the truck and the gravestone. The whole thing was there, the flag. We zoom in and we see that the day that we wrote the song is the day that Jared Monty died. And it was like, that's why when you say, how much do I, how much is spirituality a part of my job?

It's 100 because I'm telling this guy's story. I mean, I knew it right then. I was like, we were there as a vessel for Jared Monty to tell the story for the Gold Star families that lose people. And they have to keep going on. They paid the ultimate sacrifice. And we brought Paul Monti in. We had a big steak dinner sitting next to me. And he said, what other songs have you written?

I was like, sir, I don't know. You probably don't know anything I've written unless you, do you listen to Pop Radio? He goes, yeah, I've been kind of. I said, well, I wrote a song called The Climb. He literally dropped his fork, and he said, I played that at Jared's funeral. Oh, yeah. And we knew we were tied, me and Jared and me and Paul. This whole, this was no accident.

And I went on to find out that he was Lori McKenna's school teacher. Like, yeah, like so many, someone general that I know was his commanding officer, Jared's. I mean, it's just, it's. if you want to go really do a deep dive, Amazon Prime made a movie, called It All Begins with a Song that I'm in, and we actually go to Jared's house. But that song is just such a gift. It's a gift for anybody. I lost my mom in my early 20s to ovarian cancer.

Like anybody that's lost to parent or anybody, you know, just you don't know what to do with that grief. And to me, I think we just captured grief in a nutshell. And I have so many letters and people, you know, reaching out. And it's just been a real gift. It's so hard to write a... It's so easy to write a song. Yeah. It's so hard to write a hit.

It's hard to write really almost impossible to write an evergreen. Yeah. But then to have something that is, you know, it's not just that. It's so brave. It's brave for elite. Like, credit or credits do. Sure. There are other people who...

Sure. Would never record... Most artists would not record that. Totally. And credit to Rusty, too. Like, I saw him last week and MPA stuff in New York. And, like, he's one of the best that... He's ever done it in that space.

And, you know, the song plugger in this equation is, like, is fascinating, too. You know, who helps connect the dots on something so magical. It's like all those things had to work out for you to meet the family. You know, if one, if, if, if, if, if, if Russie doesn't say like, this is the song in the year, if Lee doesn't cut it. And then if it doesn't, what if it's not the single? Or what is it to die it's 50 because it was another truck song. At that time, there were a lot of truck songs on the radio and we were worried sick about it. Yeah, there's so many things.

I was trying to, this is an aside, but I was trying to Brandy Clark not on this. just because we're friends and she's one of my favorites. But we're talking about that era, and, you know, everyone's writing a truck song and she would write it just sort of inauthentic because she's just not a truck writer. Yeah. She's a different kind of writer.

And you get in this phase of trying to compete with what everyone else is writing at the time. Yeah. And it's impossible not to when every label's like, we need a song, it's just like, you know, this. and just like that, do you ever feel like you are swayed in the way you write by what a label needs? I learned probably in those years of 2015 to 2020 that I'm not really good at trying to write things that I'm,

especially like when I would come here to write, you know, there's so many artists on the charts that I didn't know. It's like how could I, just like when some writers come to Nashville and they want to write country songs, it's like I know what I'm good at and I try to stay in that arena. But that doesn't mean that if someone comes through that, you know, because I have a lot of other influences. Like I'm very influenced by boys to men or Mariah Carey. Like a lot of my melodies come from that kind of stuff too. So like I'm open, but I definitely think I've been fortunate. these last couple years that things are just clicking because it's what I do. It's in my wheelhouse.

But when it isn't in my wheelhouse, I do struggle some. You know, it's definitely not something I'm good at to pivot so hard into something that I wouldn't listen to or know a lot about. Even if you respect the genre, you respect the artist. If you, you know, the mistake LA writers make when they come to Nashville is to try to think like, oh, I'll show these guys how to write, you know, a pop melody. And these, that's not what we do here. or we're story first. Storytellers or words first. And Nashville writers who are like,

I'm going to show these guys how to write a lyric that matter. We don't really need that. That's not really what we're doing here. We're trying about emotion. We're trying to get you to like feel something. And you can try to do it, but it's really hard unless you have that artist at the right time and the right thing.

And some of it is sticking through those hard moments. It's that for pop, it's like this 2020, beginning of COVID till almost now where there's this you know this anti-pop bedroom

whisper kind of like all the all the rap stuff becomes this like same trap high hat same sort of Xanaxed out kind of performance and then all these songwriters

who want to sing like this and real quiet versus singing in an arena because they weren't and I'm like the guy who wants to write Like lyrics or melodies that people want to sing in an arena. Same. And until there's an arena tour, all these songs that were coming around,

I'm like, well, I don't even know where to go. How do you do? Do you try to, do you just wait and kind of idle time until those come back around? Or do you try? I really like writing 100% songs. And that kind of keeps me in some place where it has some catharsis for me that reminds me of why I got into this thing. Yeah.

Also writing, you know, writing for theater changes a lot of that because, you know, it's these ridiculous songs in musicals. You can write any song you want if it fits the story. And you can't, you know, Lee Bryce isn't going to sing a song about a baker liking a song that a, likeing a butcher. Yeah, totally, totally. But you can write that in theater. And not that you're actually doing that,

but the idea of you can live in this world where you can write whatever you want. And so it happened that I had some shows happening all around the development in that way. And I think that helped distract it. Yeah. And I really like the business side, which you said that you're not done to.

And I love it. You do. I love publishing. That's great. I like the numbers. I love the advocacy stuff. I like the Grammys. I like being involved in some of these things that,

that are not writing lyrics or melodies, but I still feel like you're creating music. You're involved. You're helping. I like the math of all that. That's cool. But I don't know. I mean, the being patient,

it's nice that when all these K-pop groups coming out, then all of a sudden they take outside songs, and then you get these artists who are now doing well in the pop space, and now they need those writers again who write those kinds of songs, and all of a sudden you're like, I got a grip of these songs that you're like, wow, I didn't know. I wouldn't have guessed that 10 years ago that that's where my career would lead is to like K-pop and theater.

But like if you asked me to, what I did yesterday, it's like those two things. And it's just, you just keep your head down and go. That's always the answer. People are like, what would you give, you know, new songwriter advice? I'm always like, you don't want to know because it's the same thing. It's like, keep writing. Work hard. I will see this.

I probably spend more. I spend more time here writing country songs. And there aren't a lot of places to take outside songs. Right. So you want to at least create seeds and do these things. And it's a world where you can escape also from L.A. Sure. You know, if you just spend two days working on a song where you're worried about,

like where you're telling a story that's in another place. then you're on vacation. Yeah, it's true. Anyway, we could talk about this for hours, and I really appreciate you doing this. I really wanted you to do this for a long time. I wanted to do it. I love it.

I listened to your podcast. I love it. I mean, your discography is awesome. But, again, mostly because you keep releasing really brave songs at these people. Thank you. Whether it's natural or not, it just seems so easy. I know it's not. But the songs seem so effortless in the fact that they're consistent.

Your discography is now over, you know, it's over 15 plus years of hits. That's crazy. That's crazy. Awesome. It's very cool. It's Hall of Fame shit. And it's an honor. So thank you for doing this.

Thank you for shining a light on songwriters, too. Easy to dance when you have people like you on it. There you go. Thank you.