And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 26: Claude Kelly

Episode Date: October 16, 2017

Born and raised in New York, New York, this songwriter caught the music bug early on, being introduced to a wide variety of music styles by his Jamaican-born mother at a young age. That passion eventually led him to enroll at Berklee College of Music in Boston where he went on to collaborate with notable artists such Whitney Houston, Faith Evans, Christina Aguilera, and John Legend, proving this icon is truly a source of inspiration for all. He is now a four time Grammy Nominee and has penned chart topping hits throughout the last two decades such as Britney Spears's “Circus," Bruno Mars’s “Grenade,” and Miley Cyrus’s “Party In The U.S.A." And The Writer Is... The Studio Beast himself...Claude Kelly! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey guys, this is, and the writer is, and I'm your host, Ross Golan. I've written with hundreds of artists and writers over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life, the industry, politics, composition, whatever. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs, and most importantly, who the people are who write the songs. I'm producing this with the Great Joe London, big deal music publishing and mega house music management if you want to listen to the songs we

discuss in this podcast follow us on our socials find out about special events or buy some of our merchandise go to our website www. www.com oh and if you enjoy this podcast please rate us on iTunes or whatever your preferred podcast listening site is we really appreciate that effort This week's guest is Claude Kelly. Claude Kelly's amazing. He can write for any genre. He's had number one songs across the board. The guy's amazing.

Personal note, when I first met him about 10 years ago, maybe even shorter than that, I got kind of nervous. You know, I'm here at a Grammy party, and I didn't have any cuts really yet, and here's the great Cloud Kelly. And I walked up to him, and he was super nice. So it's nice to be able to return the favor

and let you guys find out who the great Cloud Kelly. is. He's recently released a song called I Enjoy You that's part of his project, Lewis York, that's on his EP Masterpiece Theater Act 3. So check out Lewis York. And without further ado, here is, Ann the Writer is featuring Claude Kelly. Welcome to And The Writer is. I'm your host, Ross Golan. This week's writer has a name in the songwriting industry that's equivalent to Madonna or Wichel. His credits include ginormous artists like Brittany, Bruno, Kelly, and Miley.

Not only has he helped shape some of the biggest pop artists, but he also has a handful of R&B Grammy nominations. From New York City, this writer has helped define the job description of the modern songwriter. And the writer is, living anywhere but Los Angeles, Claude Kelly. That's the best description I've ever fucking heard of myself. Donna, cool, I'll take it. Dude, no, because people can say, like, if I said, oh, yeah, who you're interviewing today, I'd be like, yeah, we're sitting down on Claude. Nobody's like, oh, Claude, who?

It's certainly not in the songwriting. They can't see if I'm wearing my comb bra right now. Oh, man. Happy to be here, though. Here's a cool six degrees of separation. Ready for this? Oh, God. One of my first cuts is in 2011.

it was once I quit being in a band and it was this band called Forever the Sickest Kids and the song is called Same Dumb Excuses You and I are co-writers on that song Really? Yeah What?

Okay How? This is awesome because we've never actually hung out before Although I did once introduce myself to you at a Grammy event at that point And which is strange is like in 2000 You know, if you got to go to like, there's a Grammy event called Friends and Family. Yeah.

And I used to be somebody's like plus one kind of thing. You know. You all were someone's plus one. Right? I was someone's plus one for many years. For many years, right? Yeah. And at the time, I think it was the first time I was able to go with my wife.

So seven years ago. And I was like, that's Claude Kelly. he's on that song that we just got released. It was this band that was on Motown who got dropped quickly afterwards. And I was like, I just, you know, it was just like, yo man, congrats on everything, you know, whatever.

And you're like, yeah, man, you too. And then that was basically it until now. Fast forward seven years. Yeah, fast forward seven years and all the shit that happens. But I just think that's really interesting. I think somebody sent me the song and said, I can't remember if you had the hook or you

You had the verses kind of thing. It was like, oh, we need like a hook or we need the verses on this thing. A guy named Dan Strong and Jared Sharf, who plays guitar for us and else. I know Dan Strong really well. From New York, we used to write together all the time at a studio downtown. That makes sense now. Now it's all coming back to me. But it's just crazy.

I mean, you can actually have cuts with people and not even know who you write with sometimes. in the modern songwriting world where you can write all over the world and not even be in the same city as somebody. I think that makes me feel always a little awkward when someone's like even right now, we have a song together and I feel like a song is such an intimate thing that you should.

It's almost like, we slept together, but you don't know. I'm like, we did? Right. But I mean, it's the awesomeness of technology and also the kind of awkwardness of technology because you don't really know who you're collaborating with. And also, had I known it was someone this fucking awesome, then I would have, you know what I'm saying?

push for more stuff. Well, I'm glad it happened seven years later. At the time, to be honest, most of my songs, if I look back at the songs that I was writing at that point, I think there's a reason why they weren't successful and there wasn't

the consistency and there wasn't the discipline and there wasn't the... That's every single song. That's a song I did yesterday. That's every single song I've ever done. In my mind, I'm like, this is the shit. like the world is going to change the world

and sometimes like most often you're wrong but every now and then you're right and that's the cool part about songwriting but I go back and listen those songs now and you realize that like you're never as ready as you thought you were like there's some song from like eight years ago I'm like man they were bug and this song should have been fucking number one like

fuck everybody and then you listen back and you're like oh yeah that chorus sucks right so yeah that's me like the songs I did last year so Let's go back to the beginning of your story. So you're born?

I was born. Okay. Thank God I was born. Yeah, that's the first step. That's the first step. I passed the first step. Where in New York did you grow up? I grew up in Manhattan.

So I think that automatically makes me some kind of alien weirdo to begin with. I don't think I realized that that was a weird thing. Because if you're from New York, it's just, it's massive. So you think that the whole world is that way? And it wasn't until I left to go to college. I realized that actually being. from New York City was pretty strange, I guess, to everyone else outside of New York City. So I grew up in Stuyvesant Town, which is downtown on the east side, 14th Street and First Avenue.

And that's, I was like about stomping ground. Like, it literally is the reason why I write the way I write now. Because 14th Street is like a 14th Street is where everything meets in my mind downtown New York City. So it's like, my family was Jamaican and they came to America to do really for nursing. and there's all these Beth Israel Hospital at NYU were really close to 14th Street so the whole medical community

which was largely immigrant like West Indians and a lot of nurses from the Philippines and a lot of nurses from England were all there and then it's also that line where like above 14th Street

kind of gets nicer and below 14th Street is the village so it's like the cross the cross of hip hop and punk rock and Billy Joel and all that stuff in one place. Yeah, I mean, that really was the epicenter of music growing up.

Exactly. Like, my playground was St. Mark's Place and Astor Place, and all the graffiti and the punk rock. And I was wearing Doc Martins, and I thought I was grunge era, MTV grunge era. And so you were getting all this brand new hip-hop and brand-new alternative rock. And I was listening to They Might Be Giants and Stoneapple Pilots. At the same time, I was listening to Big Game Age. It flashed.

That's all. That's what 14th's true. street is. It's like, it's all of that. And there's, I went to a private school that was on 12th Street, but when you came out of school, Washington Irving, which was the big public high school, was right there. So you'd come out and it'd be all this, it'd just be everybody. You went to a private school for music? A private school for my education from, pretty much from kindergarten all the way up through high school. Wow. Yeah. In New York, that's, yeah. Is that like an application situation?

Yeah. I mean, New York private school is like, like, college. So like, basically that was my mom's focus. She was like, you have to get like a designer education. So I went to the school called Grace Church School, which is right near Union Square. Did she have a really thick Jamaican accent? Yes. Well, my mom's accent is half, partly Jamaican and then she grew up. Then she started nursing in England. So it's British and Jamaican and American. What does that sound like? I can't, I can't do it. Like, every, Everyone, every time I try, it doesn't work. Although people say that my Jamaican accent comes out sometimes.

I think it's in some of the ends of my phrases or when I'm angry. But you might have to just piss me off and it'll come out. Mine comes out and get real Chicago. Like if I get really angry, you're like, no, that's not. You just start laughing. Is that really? My mom, she would say Ross. She calls me Ross.

Ross. I love to learn accents. That's a whole other conversation. That's a whole other conversation. But you, you, yeah, so I grew up in,

I said a lot to say that I grew up in New York City. Sure. And, were your parents into music? No, my family is really all medicine. They're all like nurses,

doctors. No, but I mean like, well they, into it? Yeah, like, did they play music

around the house or were they singing? Like, man, like, yeah. I grew up in a single parent so I was just my mom and never really knew my dad,

which I wasn't really a bad thing because I never really met him so I didn't really miss anything. But my mom. Was he in New York? was he, in New York, but I don't really know the details of him and the rest. So it's not

like a sad story because I don't really, you can't really miss what you don't know. Right. So, but to make up for that, what I was saying, my mom was super, super proactive in just making me aware of culture and arts and sports and everything. So, lived in one bedroom

apartment and literally every single room in the house had a radio tuned to a different station. So there was, their house was just noise, but it was just amazing. noise. So my if I was by myself, I was playing it was on the radio. So it was

Z100 or Hot 97 or whatever was just hot. Which is an interesting era too because you would get Biggie and then you would also get no doubt of pilots. Exactly. That's how I knew at all. It wasn't unusual to have rock bands and hip hop. Back to back and it was all

awesome and you were just soaking it all up. And then I guess to everyone to all parents that sounds like just bullshit that like turn that noise down. That's just how That's just generational. But then my mother, you're not Jamaican if you don't know Bob Marley. He's like, Christ. So literally, that was like my early education was Bob Marley.

That was always playing. Motown was always playing because my mom came to America in the late 60s when Motown was big. And so she actually saw almost every single person that we consider legendary now live at the Apollo Theater. Yeah, that's awesome. So she just had this personal connection to it. So she had all the record.

She had Aretha and she had Ike and Tina and the Supreme and she drilled that. And then she'd have, then I'd go to church every Sunday. So it was hymns and church music every week. And then I started playing piano first. So I started playing piano when I was three. Classical. So it's classical, reggae, church music, hip-hop, R&B pop, soft rock probably in the kitchen. It would be like all the adult AC.

stuff that was like, you know, crossing over like Chicago and Billy Joel and Carol King and James Taylor. So I just sat there and soaked it all up. When did you figure out you could sing? I was singing, apparently I've been singing before I could talk. The first thing I ever, the first things that kind of came out of my mouth out of words was no women, no cry by Bob Marley. Wow. Yeah, which is a pretty heavy song to say. Yeah. I'm singing like serious cultural anthems as a baby, which is actually interesting because that's that's still what resonates with me now. But I remember, I remember, as young as I can remember, people told me that I was singing that song.

Yeah, that's great. So I was singing before I played piano, but I actually took piano seriously first. Right. Did you go, you said you went to college? Went to Berkeley. Oh, okay. Did you go for piano, or did you go for singing? I got in on piano.

Yeah. And then when I was classically trained. and Berkeley is a lot more of a contemporary jazz school and so I was used to reading, decide reading and reading just all the notes out and I just had a complete panic attack my first semester of having to read charts and I know I didn't want to be a professional piano player in any way

so I was like, well if I don't want to be a piano player I should figure this out so I literally switched to voice and I've been singing all through high school I've been singing all my life anyway so it wasn't like I was singing for the first time I was in choirs and competitions and stuff in New York but I switched to voice my first semester. So really no one from Berkeley on knows me as a piano player at all. If you knew anyone about anyone who knew me when I was a kid,

knew me as a classical piano player. Wow. How often do you play? Do you still play? Hardly ever. It's actually embarrassing because I think I might have, I definitely lost my skill because I just didn't play. I didn't play a lot.

But also, more like my, more like a sight reading school. I suck at sight reading now. My fingers are I love it. just kind of stiff, I guess, when it comes. But my brain works classically. So the music that's constantly in my head is like scales and minuettes and different motifs and patterns of notes and melodies and classical music. When you were at Berkeley, were you in bands?

Or were you doing solo stuff? I mean, what kind of singing were you doing? So even at, this is weird. Even at Berkeley, I sang. I sang in gospel choir. like the smaller elite group called Overjoyed. I did, I performed at show. I did all like the stuff that,

I guess the singers at Berkeley would consider successful. There was a thing called Singer Showcase, which is very hard to get into. It's like a show every semester for the best singers. They audition and it's like American Idol. I'm pretty serious. I did that twice and I did all the cool stuff. But I still was, I wouldn't consider myself

a singer first at Berkeley. I just literally did everything. I was, I knew I want to, wanted to be in the music business really, really badly. I'd always wanted to be in the business from like when I was like in grade school. I think even back then my yearbook it said like I was going to probably end up working out LaFace Records when I was like in second grade. Yeah, which I still have that.

It's weird. Taff actually work with L.A. Reed in real life is weird. But I did everything. I was like I managed. I produced shows and I managed like I would mock manage my friends and get their demos together. And I sang. I did background work.

I would arrange songs. I was just a jack of all trades because I figured that I would have to know a little bit of everything to get in the business and I had no idea what career I'd get into. I mean, that's what in the intro when I was saying how it's redefining what a songwriter is.

Yeah. You know, one of the problems that happens now is that people tend to look at, they have this definition of a songwriter as being a guy who goes into a room or a woman who goes into a room writes a song and then leaves. And they don't recognize how many aspects of business and finance and marketing and branding

and all that facets that make this profession work. So few, you know, the three hours to two days or whatever it takes to write your song is a part of it. And then the whole other process of being a salesperson, you sell air for a living and like understanding the job of a song writer has very little to do with the writing part is a joy like anytime that I know I have the day just to be my creative self is literally

the best time ever because what you're like what you're saying is real fucking talk like the the skill of selling your song the skill of being in a room with an artist I mean there's literally

parts of the songwriting industry I mean there's all obviously if we're complaining about, like our rights and our credits and how much we're getting paid and those are the parts that keep us alive. But the parts that we still haven't been taught and figuring out, which is why a lot of us fuck up and fail, is those things. Like, it's the business of songwriting that happens afterwards, like, figuring out when to put your ego on the back burner.

No matter how big you are, if you're fucking Max Martin, there's a moment where, like, it's not about him anymore. It's about making Britney or... Justin Timber, like whoever, sound their best, and knowing that time, knowing when to force and when to push back, pull back, knowing how to even just talk to

very successful, free-willed, opinionated, sometimes fucking crazy artists is a hard job. Totally. And it's a job that I think we're not allowed to complain about because, number one, I think people see songwriting as very fancy and, like, especially when you're good at it,

when you're successful at it, it's almost like, well, you've worked with, like you said, like Whitney Houston and Britney Spears. So that's luxurious, so you can't complain. And also there's like a code of, a secret code where, like, songwriters especially are not allowed to give away the dirty secrets of what, of how it's, especially songwriters. I don't know why we're, we're like the priests. Like we're not allowed to say anything about how treacherous they are. And by they, I mean, every fucking body.

I mean, treacherous, sometimes the fans are. Sometimes artists are. Sometimes the labels in the management are. Sometimes radio stations. Sometimes bloggers are treacherous to the creative process. Like demolish it. And we're kind of just having a holy vow. And we can say nothing negative about how it gets treated.

It's very scary because this process of what we're doing right now is a little bit of magicians telling how magic is done. And the more people recognize that it's mathematical and it's an illusion and how you create what is literally a sonic illusion. It's not like if you put on no woman, no cry right now, it still sounds like Bob Marley is in the room, but he's not here.

That is an illusion. Just like watching television, they're not in the room. And people don't think of songwriting or recording music as being an illusion. And the minute you start talking about it being not magical, but being scientific, there becomes some pushback from a lot of people who don't want to admit that, you know,

for some reason, singers are truth tellers. So people assume that, well, then they have to have written their own songs. Yeah, it has to be an entire idea. Yeah, and even if it's like their favorite artists in history never wrote a song. You know, they just don't want to admit that it takes a village to make it happen and they really don't want to admit that, you know. It's funny you're saying that because I was just debating this with my business partner,

Chuck Harmony yesterday. We were just talking about this very thing. And for a long time, it's been this whole thing of like, it's been a dirty secret that especially a singer or a singer-songwriter had a team doing stuff. And for a long time, I guess as a songwriter, we suffered because we felt like we were just kept in the dark and we weren't getting the attention or the love or the money or the awards we deserved but now something the ties are turning and there's this thing now where like it's actually biting the artist in the ass now because number one of the songwriters myself included get tired of it

and if you can really sing your talented like see ya and other people you can just do it yourself and often do it better but even worse than that I think that we give artists are getting a lot of catching a lot of flack for their failure now and I think now that you realize all eyes are in you I think there's an eagerness to say, like, no, it's not just me. It's a team of people. Right. So as a fan of music, let me put it in perspective. Let me give an example.

Mariah Carey puts an album out, and the world doesn't think it's her best album. That's happened before. It's not a surprise, but she's also legendary. But she's also been doing this for 20-plus years. And so to some extent, it's actually not fair to her, the artist, to literally pan her as a complete thing because you now see her as responsible for her look

her image the marketing the song the video the timing everything it's like the live TV performance the whole thing I'm like but she definitely is the forefront of this but there's

for Mariah Caroline there's a hundred people at any given time making the whole thing works so I think it actually benefits now more than ever to reveal the fact that they're like there are amazing fucking people like rock stars who are doing a lot of different things so that everyone can actually breathe a little better because I see it that way I see it like where I do it sometimes where like you look at someone they don't do as an artist what you want

them to do and you kind of throw all the blame on them like why the fuck they put that album out and why are they wearing that and like who who like why did they approve this video and what is this song and why are you been singing that you realize that this one person can't can be responsible for the entire rollout and and so on the flip side it I think it benefits everyone to be like like here's this amazing songwriter I have and here's this genius branding person and this video director and this choreographer and this stylist because it also makes the business grow but I think it cuts all of us some slack and for us just be fair now because why not I don't get it does anybody if nobody takes to the blame if no one takes the blame then the record labels just

drop everyone and move on and the money keeps flowing that's that's where they get off but If no one takes to blame, then what happens is the art suffers. And I think that's what is happening more often than not, is that we just keep it moving. And without any regard to people's art or their career or the time put into it. Going back to when you were, you know, you're finishing up college and you're a singer, did you want to be the artist then? No.

You never wanted to be. Of all the things that you were doing, you didn't really want to be the artist. I am really hard on myself and I was never crazy about my voice, which is, I guess strange to hear me say now because now that I am, and I've chosen to be in a band and be an artist, that seems so opposite of what I believe now. But I knew I had a, I know I could sing and I know I could make the songs and the sounds I wanted to make, but I never felt like my voice was good enough. against the people I compared myself to so like... But you're comparing yourself to Bob Marley fucking Bob Marley and Whitney Houston

and Billy Joel and... Yeah. Which is silly, but also I've always had really, really high expectations for myself and always had really high expectations for music. So in my mind if it wasn't giving me that feeling, then it wasn't good enough. And so if I couldn't hear that in my own stuff, then I wasn't going to put

anything. I wasn't going to even go down that road. That's how much I respect artistry. As a writer, how to... I mean, were you comparing yourself to those people as a writer? As a writer, I compared myself to songwriters. A lot of them... Like, when were you starting to write? Were you writing?

I didn't start writing until I was... After I graduated from Berkeley. Okay, so you were like, yeah, I could write this if... Well... How do you start that late? Okay, so I was at Berkeley and, like I said, didn't know what I was going to do. And at the time, this is literally how life fucks your whole shit up. At the time,

music industry was kind of set up where you could do whatever you wanted. Like, there was just money was flowing, it was 2000, whatever. And then while I was at Berkeley, 9-11 happened. Oh, right, yeah. And I'm from New York, and it happened in New York.

And I don't think people talk about this enough, but it really did flip the music industry on his ass. Because music is still not a necessity. It's a pleasure for people. And so when people get scared, or money gets low, or they're hoarding for safety reasons, the last thing you think to do is to go out and buy music.

So a lot of music tanks, but also the business and entertainment business kind of froze. And so for us graduating the next year, those A&R jobs that used to be able to get because you went to Berkeley and they had a relationship and you just go straight to Def Jam or go straight to Interscope, they weren't really there the way they used to be.

And so I was like, well, now what the hell do I do? And the only lucky thing I had was that I was from New York. so while everyone else came to Boston to figure it out and had to figure out a whole other city, I just went home. And New York was the music industry. So I just tagged along with my friends who were in studios, my musical friends who were just writing and recording while I was in college, younger and older than I was. And I was sitting in the back of the room and like as the songs were either good or I sucked, I started to have ideas. I'm like, that's not what he should be saying there.

That note shouldn't go there. And I built the courage up to speak. after a while they're like why don't you come do it or like it just became like the thing where like they needed me in the room and I built my confidence up naturally after I graduated from after I got my degree in music business I went and got a whole other career as a songwriter and that's partly because I don't think that we we do a good job of saying songwriting as a real career before you fall into it and also I think that I was I didn't I would have majored in songwriting at Berkeley had I known Oh, you would have?

I probably would have, but had I done that, I probably would suck. I think I probably would have analyzed it too much. The things I used are the things that I learned in like the, you know, I just did have a music industry degree from SC. And the stuff I learned from, you know, the intellectual property law classes are the things I use every day. Exactly. The songwriting stuff I learned from listening to. Your favorites and.

Yeah, from listening to my favorites and eventually having them as mentors. That's how I learned how to write songs. I mean, there was a songwriting class, but it was fine. And music changes. What I learned was, like, really the intellectual property. Music changes, so you can't really, like, you can't really textbook music because the way, like, okay, so if you were studying the way Diane Warren wrote ballads in 97, then you'd be really behind right now.

And I'd say that they're not valuable and that I wish they weren't on the radio, but that's not necessarily how songs are being crafted now. So it's hard to study, get a degree, and say that, And that's this my thing. Like, I think I just absorbed a lot of stuff at Berkeley. How are you paying bills in New York after graduating? And you're sitting in recording studios not contributing. Oh, my God.

Listen, the amount of things, okay, all right. So I lived at home for a couple years, maybe three or four. And your mom was totally supportive of like, yeah, man, go for it. And, like, awesome and rare. And I know that's not. not like, it's not normal. So, I mean, she knew I was driven and she knew I was going to figure it out. I wasn't really sure how, but I think she had a lot of faith in me.

But I took a lot of odd jobs. So I worked all over the city. But I was used to working because I had summer jobs and I worked when I wasn't from probably 14. I got my work permit when I was 14. What's the worst job you did during those years after college? All right. Talk about six degrees of separation. Yeah, okay.

I worked on 14th Street. I worked at a glass engraving shop. So it's literally a store where they carve the words into awards for whatever. It could be like the annual doctor's convention they're giving you an award. And I'm literally at this machine with this glass thing, like filling it all in. And then it types out like Doctor of the Year, Ross, like whatever it is, like that kind of stuff. So and Lily my job wasn't even to do that much. It was really just to dust and windex all the glass examples.

And the store was full of just glass example awards. I were just collecting dust. I'd just spend all day windexing. And the weird thing is that I got a call. I was just trying to write the time. I got a call to do some random trip to go to Holland to write with someone. This is me just around New York grinding. So somebody had just heard some of the songs you started doing it.

I don't remember how that happened. I had been writing for people and my name had gotten to one of the, person to the next person and someone ended up offering me an opportunity to come work on an artist demo overseas and I told my boss at the job that I was going to like need a couple more days or whatever and I told him on four and he was like he basically was like you know you should probably focus more on working here because music doesn't really work out for people and you know you can really climb here and I think you're making a big mistake and you should take the time off the windows outside you can wind next to windows outside you can wind

The car windows. There's so many things you can win decks, not just awards if you keep working at it. I'm like, yeah, I'm going to go to Europe, I think. Right. So then I quit the job, go to Europe, come back. Two or three years later, or maybe four years later,

things are going good for me. I'm in L.A. I'm working on Corbin Blue. Oh, yeah, from American Idol, right? From glee Ah, from glee, right Who's by the way an awesome guy And this is like early on before I had anything

Massive out So I was literally just getting better And these people were taking chances on me, gratefully Did you have a publishing deal? I didn't yet, I think I was I ended up trying to want to travel But I didn't have my publishing deal yet I was literally just getting around on my own

Did you have a manager? I did have a manager from New York And were they helping kind of spread the word? He was helping spread the word I mean we were literally just On foot basically just it was word of mouth i i signed i went from ascap to bmi and bmi really believed in me and they actually were really instrumental and kind of connecting a lot of the dots for me so i'm in this

session i ended up doing most of corbin blue's album at the time that came out just i was working really hard and we had a flow going in was great album comes out it does what it does it was it was part of the whole glee hoopla i worked for him at the time get a call from him a year later and he's like so i'm at lunch or my dinner with my uncle. I'm telling him about my album and how great it was and I'm telling him that, you know, I had this amazing songwriter named Claude Kelly. And his fucking uncle was the guy who owned the Glass and the Gleeving store. No way.

Yeah. So his uncle never heard from me again. And then when he heard from me again, it was by his super famous nephew, who I guess at the time he didn't even know it was going to be so big, who was on this hit show, who was now getting his entire album written by me. who he told it. It would never work in music. What a great revenge story.

That's awesome. I definitely had a relative at one point that said, you know, your parents are still helping you out when are you going to get a real job. And they definitely have posted on social media all kinds of things about... I'm so proud he wouldn't be my summer of the year.

I mean, it's actually... I'm trying to be bitter about that stuff because it's part of the course. Like, music is a crapshoot. Like I know that. And for most people, they don't make it. So it actually is pretty common to say. Yeah. And right.

So for me to be like, in theory they're looking out for you. Exactly. Right. For me to be like, you couldn't see it is kind of true, but it's also kind of most people's story. And it doesn't actually end the way that ours ends. Sure.

Sure. So you're in, are you, you're not living in L.A. though, when you're working on that record because you refuse to live in L. I refuse to live in L. I refuse to live. I was, I was, I am a true blue New Yorker. And my theory was if I could take my New York mentality, which is basically Puffy Can't Stop, won't Stop, like all times the day and night, and I could apply that other places, I would

beat my competition. So I learned to write really fast. I learned to write really well really fast. And I learned to demo my own stuff. So the reason that I actually became, I think, a good singer was because I would sing everything. Because it would take too long to get someone else to say. sing it the way I heard it in my head and I know I had enough voice to do it. So there's almost every demo, male or female, bar maybe one or two, that went to artists was me singing them. So I would get to

LA and I would just, I would go to one session for three, four hours and write a song and get that place and then go in another session for three, four hours and cut it and get a place. And I do three sessions a day. I go from Dr. Luke to Acon to Chuck Harmony and then back to the hotel. You had a couple hours sleep and do it all again. and do that every day for a week and then go back to New York and get some rest. That's crazy. Yeah.

So you go, when is all this happening? I mean, like you were saying, you were in Holland and then three or four years later, you know? Timeline. Okay, so I graduated in 2002, 2002, and I didn't get my, I didn't get any kind of, the break that people know me for, which is like Brittany and Kelly Clarkson was 2007.

Right. So, I was in New York just, figuring it all out with no publishing deal, hardly any money. And I was literally at my last. Like, I signed a publishing deal because I had to. My original plan was never to sign one.

I wanted to purposely be like the rogue ghost writer that no one could. You wanted to be Diane Warren. I wanted to be like, they could not figure whether I was coming or going. And I ended up signing to Warner Chapel for not a huge glamorous deal. I had nothing out, so there was no reason from them to give me a lot of money. But there's something about, this is weird. This is one of my first big lessons I learned in the music business.

Like, I just got to chill. That's weird. I haven't thought about this for a while. There's something about you working really, really, really, really hard for something. And like doing everything you can, spending all your money and trying it, and you're still hitting a wall. And there's just, I believe there's this part right before success happens where you have to literally relinquish. You purposely have to relinquish some control. It's almost like letting the universe know that you trust it enough for something big to happen.

And the publishing deal was much less business for me and much more spiritual. And not like in a Christian or Jewish or any other kind of way. It was much, much more like me trusting something bigger than myself that it was going to happen. I had done everything I possibly could. I had been very mindful of my relationships. I'm genuinely a nice, friendly person. I enjoy being in a studio and collaborating. So I never have like negative I rarely have beef with people or or or or

or studio sessions. I've been writing I thought at the time better than I ever Was and I just kept hitting a wall and then I was like at the time this is how this is how is how I really started getting to LA I was like I have no money left and I just knew it deep down It's like if I can just get to LA if I can just get there I know something will happen I just need someone I just need some money I just need someone to just push me a little bit And the publishing deal was just a little edge I needed to crack the door. Because I signed my publishing deal in, let's say, I want to say it was August. And nothing about the publishing deal changed my circumstances except for the fact that I trusted.

Everything that I had been doing even the weeks before that. So I signed the publishing deal. And the Whitney Houston record that I had written maybe in July or June, I found out I was going to be on Whitney Houston right after that. after my publishing deal. And the Michael Jackson song I did, I got placed like in September. And then Britney,

I went to L.A. And the first thing Dr. Luke and I did was circus for Britney Spears. How did Luke hear about you? So on the trip to L.A. And this is part I don't really remember. I know it was someone who worked with Luke who reached out to my manager.

But neither of them were there. They just arranged for us to meet. And Luke and I are similar in that. we're really musical and I think we come across it's kind of a big personality but I'm probably more shy than people realize so putting the two of us in a room

actually putting two songwriters in a room usually is a little awkward because they're both kind of insulated and kind of a ball of ideas but kind of afraid to say any of them at one time so it took a second for us to warm up and then I played him the Michael Jackson song kind of because I wanted just to let him know right away that I could do pop music.

Because my biggest obstacle to that point was that you walk in the room and people see a black guy and they automatically assume that you should be doing Usher at most. And so it was always my goal to defy the stereotype. So I didn't want him to see me and think that I was going to be his lane into the urban world. I wanted him to see me as a great songwriter that would write whatever he threw him my way. So I played him that song on purpose to let him know that it was my idea and I had done it with Akon, who I guess he might have perceived as urban, but I could write a song for the biggest pop star you know.

Yeah. And he heard it ever. Ever, kind of. Just stunning a little bit. But he saw me for exactly what I was. He was like, you're just a fucking great writer. And so when he called me back, he was like, I want you to come back and work with me.

And I said, sure. And I flew back to New York. And then about a couple weeks later, he's like, I want you to come back for Brittany. And on the plane ride back, to LA to work with Brittany I was sussing through ideas

and circus came to my head. So you walked in with like a song like a concept and you're like I got an idea. Well not the melody, not even lyrics. I just this was right after Brittany had the breakdown and the shaved head and all that stuff.

A lot of times I tend to work with artists when they need like to overcome something. I don't know how that works out but I prefer to work with artists when they have something a point to get across or something important to say or to answer an answer to the world. And so obviously everyone was waiting for what the hell she was going to say after. It was after the whole Gimme More album and the MTV,

detracting MTV performance and that whole thing. So she had to come hard. And so I was scared shitless. I was like, this is a lot of weight. I knew it was my chance to do something really awesome because no one calls people for Britney Spears very often. And I know he was calling me. It wasn't the label.

so I knew that and I know it wasn't Brittany because she didn't know me so I was like I have to prove a lot to a lot of people that I'm worth it starting with Luke and then just the whole nine yards so this is you still felt like you had to prove something having had at this point songs out with Whitney no but none of them had come out yet

so actually what happened was the Whitney and Michael's song were actually done first but the way you know how it takes forever for songs to come out and the way the politics worked out Brittany Brittany and Kelly came out before Michael and then also Michael passed away that's a long story I'll get back to that But I was on the flight and I kept thinking about her life and how to make sense of it.

And I was like, her life is fucking crazy. It's like a circus. And I just started thinking about the imagery of what that could be. And I knew that she was a dancer and that she made great videos. And I thought of the idea of like, I'm like the ringleader. Because if you're the ringleader, you got to get out there every fucking night. You had to open the show, all eyes on you, whipping your hand, whether you've feel good or not. And I was like, what must it feel like to be the ringleader? You never get to

know if they just have to, they have to get the whole show started. And I was like, that's Britney Spears. She's got to, she's got to set the circus off whether she feels like it or not, whether the press is there or they like her this week or not. And I was like, that's a song. And then when I got to L.A., Luke and Benny Blanco were there working on the music. And it just sounded like exactly what I was thinking a circus would feel like. And so it came to, we tweaked it for a day or two because we're all perfectionist, but that song is wild because to start yours,

to start like the successful part of your songwriting career and then watch a song go all the way through the steps, from demo to label hearing it, to Brittany coming to sing it, to it being on the album, to being the name of the album, to being the single, to be the video with the elephants and the lions,

and the contortionist, and then it's the tour, and then it's the perfume, and then it's the, like... And it all started on an airplane. Yeah, that, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, that an idea can do that much, that can go so far.

And it was actually the best thing, 2007 was the best thing that ever happened to me in terms of those artists, not because they're famous and I got well known for it, but my goal, my dream was to work with Britney Spears, and my dream was work with Michael Jack. and Whitney Houston and people like Kelly Clarkson. And I thought it was going to take me 12, 15 years

after my first hit to get there. So when it happened in the first year of the world knowing who I was, I had a panic attack because I was like, well, now what do I dream about? Like, what do I do now? And it's fleeting. I mean, even when you keep thinking of,

I know when you're aspiring, just like, all you want is, you just want to pay your bills and then you're like oh well there's a huge difference in the industry between not making money and making money because it's sink or swim and then all of a sudden you have a song

that gets up to number one and you can try to will it forward but it's eventually it'll go down it's literally watching the tragedy is it's not such a selfish thing but the tragedy of watching your number one song goes down is actually equally as heartbreak

because you're like oh no the party's over and you watch the party it's kind of slowly die. I always felt like it was cathartic because you'd be on a song's way up. You know, you're just like come on, keep going, keep going. I know this has it. I believe

this can go forward. Come on. Looking at radio stations big, why isn't Topeka playing this song more? What's wrong with Cincinnati? What's wrong with Cincinnati? Why don't they hear this song? This song's huge. Look at all these other stations and you're spending all this time trying to

hope it goes up to the top only for it to once it finally goes down I almost feel like there's this moment of like well that was the life yeah that happened and then I can go on to the next one that will cause another six months

of anxiety but but you have this panic attack or is it like a real panic attack I need to stay inside I mean it wasn't that I wasn't that physical but I definitely had to sit myself down and and make some new goals

because if Michael Jackson is your goal and it's pretty much everyone's goal who grew up studying pop and he's singing your song like literally the guy who I grew up listening to his voice is on and my backgrounds are on there so it's me and him singing together Did you meet him? I didn't meet him

he recorded it in Vegas It doesn't make any less awesome It comes in and I was like holy crap And I hope people recognize what you just said though That listen to any song That a songwriter is done That sings at all and they're all over these records.

Oh, yeah. Like, there's no question that you're singing background on those records, and you hear them, you're just like, oh, yeah, there's, you start recognizing the literal voice of the songwriter in all their songs. If you go through their discography. When I meet people and they hear me talk or they hear me sing, I hear a lot of, oh, my God, you're the person going, uh-huh, on circus. Because they use.

my, the demo vocal that I did there. And in my mind, I'm just cool, use whatever. But like you said, they don't realize that there's other people's tones and sounds that are part of this record. So, man, but I mean, part of the nervous breakdown was like, okay, now what do I do? If I've done,

if I've reached what I thought was the pinnacle. So literally from that point on, my career has been full steam ahead of just fucking people's heads up. That's just, let's just, what I... You were just like, let's go as hard as we can. Try to get as many hits. Not even as many hits. Let's break through as many boxes as I can.

Like, as soon as you, because the industry, the labels like to put you in a box. So as soon as I did circus, I was a pop guy. And I can't do R&V anymore. You're not allowed. So I was like... It's interesting. You were saying that you had to go into Luke and be like, no, no, no, I'm a pop guy. And then

you're like, you become a... Or not just... You have the ability to do pop. And then that puts you in a box where you're like, wait a minute. No, no, no. I didn't want to walk into this box. I didn't want to only do pop. I wanted to say I could do this too. So literally my discography, if you look at it, it's on purpose.

It was like as soon as I have a big one on this side, I'd go over and jump. And a lot of times I did against other people's advice. Especially like on either side. And if you're doing it, you have a hit record here that like stay over here. So I would do Brittany and Kelly. And then I did Fantasia and had a number one with her on the Arup inside. And she got a Grammy for it. And then I did R. Kelly.

and then I'll do, you know, then I'd come back over and do Jesse Jane and Miley Cyrus and then jump back over here and do Liljohn and all kind of random stuff. I would just be all over on purpose. Then I go to London and do Ali Meurs and something over there and then come back over. So you could never quite peg me and you could never quite peg my race or what city I was from. I was just writing bangers that you would love and then realize I did afterwards. And that's, I've had a blast doing that the whole time. When you say people, like who,

who are you envisioning is looking at Claude Kelly as like a writer? You know, I think a lot of what, this is my own experience, I would guess that I think a lot of what makes most musicians work and create the way they do is their inspiration. But also, I think we're formulated by the doors that are slammed in your face on your way up. So a lot of the chip on your shoulder or the reason why you work with certain artists is probably, the ones that inspired you and part of the ones that everyone tells you, doesn't think you can do. I heard a lot of like,

if you're a black writer, you got to write R&B. And I got putting a lot of awkward sessions that really weren't the best for me because you guys are black. So there should be a hit here. And sometimes I got putting really great sessions for that and it hadn't worked out. But more often than not, I felt like it wasn't so much that I couldn't write the song because I usually wrote,

I was able to make it work. It was just, I was so offended by the fact that I was being pegged because of if I was from New York City or if I was black or if I was, or if it was R&B or hip hop. I was like, but I like Cindy Lauper. Like, I want to write Phil Collins record. Like, what are you talking about? Like, put me in with a rock guy. And it was the few A&R as an artist that took a chance on that that allowed me to prove

that people, that those ghosts, I think were probably in my head too, were wrong. Do you think of that as racism? Hell yeah. The music industry is racist. Like, that's probably a bold thing to say, especially for someone that's doing so well in it. But I'm doing well in spite of the fact that most people are not doing well because of race. Genres are one box, but within the box of genres, there's race within that.

And there are opportunities given to white artists that are not given to black artists. there's money paid that's not paid across and there's definitely just the consideration sometimes that's not given because of where you're from or even what your discography says. I know that because I sit with other writers, black writers

and there's almost a sense of you're looking at two almost like the analogy I see in my head is like two soldiers that were like the two lucky ones that made it through the fucking field of

of landmines and you're like wow so you figured out how to make it too huh like you avoid all the bullshit and all the people telling you know and all the people telling you're not good enough or that you can't do this stuff Esther Dean is an example every time I talk to her and I don't see her very often it feels like you're talking to someone that

survived as opposed to like you had a great opportunity and we're having a blast doing it here yeah of course it's a lot harder for I mean there's a history of They can go into for years and years about the business and fairness and black artists versus white. And I'm not sure there's an answer to it either. But for songwriting specifically, I think that there's a part that that's beginning to shatter now.

I think we're part of the generation that's shattering it. Sitting in Nashville right now is shattering it. Yeah, I mean, I was going to ask. So we're obviously doing this interview in Nashville. I mean, you're living in Nashville not doing country music. I'm living in Nashville, not doing country music. And I always say that this is the blessing of technology. I have a lot of bones to pick with technology and what it's done to music.

However, one of the awesome things is that it's played a big part in kind of wiping away some of those invisible walls we put up. Because like I said about where I grew up, I think that New York City and 14th Street is kind of a microcosm of what I ended up having to get used to in the business. Technology, iPhones, iPods, I guess MTV 2 made it so that music wasn't regional. Like our parents listened to what they grew up listening to what they grew up to because that's what's playing in their neighborhood. So if you grow up in an Irish-American neighborhood, there were certain things that everyone listened to or Jamaican neighborhood in New York or you were from Atlanta. And for a long time, hip-hop was based off of, it was

regional hip-hop. It's New York. hip-hop and southern hip-hop. I think what it made, we all listen to music kind of schizophrenically now on purpose. So I'm halfway through a little Wayne song and he says something that makes me think that I want to listen to TLC and TLC takes me to Taylor Swift and that takes me to Drake, which takes me to Miley Cyrus, which takes me to Deaf Leopard, which, you know, it's just a good and so I think that has forced everyone to realize that everyone's listening to everything so you can't possibly put people in a box based off of how they dress where they're from, how they look. it's not possible anymore

and Nashville is kind of changing the most rapidly because the kids of even country stars or country execs that would have thought that way grew up listening to everything so if they're going to be musicians they're going to want they were influenced by Drake

the same way they were influenced by Taylor Swift and you can't we can't help it you can't help but be the product musically of all that you do or all that you don't take in so because we're taking in so much you and I graduated I mean.

We graduated, I think, pretty much the same year from college. So my assumptions were the same age. And my first record I was able to buy in a Virgin record store, that's probably the last album I bought in a store. I was happy that I just made the cutoff to have it. Because that was the goal. I just wanted to open up, you know. I don't have a CD player now.

and I had a song come out that was on a pretty big album a couple weeks ago and I made sure to at least go buy the album at a target just so I could open up the cellophane, open up and see my name in it. Yeah, just to see like that's still, to me, that's still a very exciting thing. But the death of record stores meant that the death of aisles, which means the death of genres, and it starts to become the homogenizing of sound and songs. So do you think it's a good thing or a bad thing?

I think it's a great thing. I mean, I miss the fact that, like, you know, the idea of, like, the real rock band or the real, you know, I actually think, I think what it did was it actually killed a lot of music that I was a fan of growing up. But I also think, you know, the fact that you can listen to bad and bougie and then, and then. then, you know, let it go. Right, right, right. And that they're next to each other on a chart. Well, I guess they're a couple years apart. But you can have multiple genres all on the same chart.

And like you were saying, I think that kids don't know the difference between, you know, they can get into a phase, but I don't know. This is a lot more. I mean, you can just soak in so much more. I remember. You think it's a bad thing? No, I don't think it's a bad thing. I think the access to music is an excellent thing. I think it's great.

I've definitely made use of it because I'm a studier, so I can spend too much time to listen to worlds and worlds of music and going down rabbit holes that make me late everywhere, give me insomnia. But I don't think that the options are the problem. I think that, I mean, there are problems that technology is brought. but I think the erasing of those Yeah, I think that is a good thing. I spent a lot of time thinking about this stuff. You wouldn't have Taylor Swift featuring Kendrick Lamar in 1985. No.

Like that wouldn't even have come across. I mean, I guess you had Aerosmith and run DMC, but for the most part. That was newsworthy because it was groundbreaking. It was groundbreaking. It was groundbreaking. That was super rare. Now you would have, it's not a question that you would pick. We're going to pick a very white artist and a very black artist.

And we'll put, you know, or we'll have, right now you have a really Latin American artist with a really white artist. That's number one. And then you have the next one that's, you know, a European with the same white artist. I mean, maybe that's the through line. But you're getting the idea of that stuff. I don't remember that happening. I think when you'd have a duet, you'd have, you know, for the most part, it was, the duet was within its, within certain walls.

It was very well calculated. It was within certain walls. It wasn't as free as it is now in terms of like you just get it done. I think the plus side is all this, is the collaboration. It's opening the door to a lot more creativity without having to go through some of the, I think, terrible gatekeepers that were there before. Yeah. My only issue, well, not my only, there's a few issues. I think that the music, I think we as musicians, we can play on the music business, but I think all of us is too late, but I think we're so.

but I think we sold our industry to another industry. So, like, when I watch the NBA, I'm always a little bit jealous. When I watch ESPN, I'm always jealous. I just look at, like, how insulated they are as an industry. Like, everything about it's top-notch. You can't get in there unless you're the best. You pay a lot of money to go see it,

to play the video games that's around it, to buy the paraphernalia it's around it. Like, it's the upkeep of the actual, the level of excellence is so high that we also gather around every year to watch the NBA finals or the Super Bowl or the World Series. And we have a, we just have a very lackadaisical approach musicians do to the importance of just music, the care of music on a whole. And it has nothing to do with the availability or who's in it or it's just after it's there, after we have the art, like how do we treat it? treat our artists. How do we treat our whole, this business we call music is so shabby in terms of how when you compare it to sports and you compare it to even, even musical theater, even, and the one I'm not speaking of, which is when we sold it to is technology, which I think was the most silly thing

we did ever, which is that we are a business within a business. So technically we can't really do anything without computers anymore. There is no music business. without computer, without the computer industry. So if we decide in this room we're going to be a band, it's not impossible to do, but we're all very, very good at what we do and we've done it to a certain level of success. So technically, we deserve and know how to do this

on a really high level. For us to do it at a high level today if we start a band, means that you have to go, you have to subscribe. You have to give in to technology first, which means that before your music can, you have control of music Apple has to have a say in it or Spotify has to say it about when it can come out

and at what level and where it decides to be in their tier of importance and that's actually technically outside of... That's still the distribution of the creative process like in a sense that you could go and so few people get an opportunity to tour music before they record it for real.

Yeah. And they don't get to rehearse the songs before they go in the studio. Now, like, you're literally, most of the time, recording the song the day you're writing in, and it's literally recorded on the computer that then you just put

a, you bounce it down and it's ready for distribution on some level. That's why I say it's a cash thing too, is that like the opportunity of the availability is the blessing. Like, even today, like this wouldn't have happened without social media and I mean, us actually having a conversation. That part of the inclusiveness, the community, the

community of music is beautiful. I think what happens after, like what happens to our products, which is actually how we fuel. Yeah, it's really cheap end. It's cheapened. Yeah, yeah. And I wish that even to your point about buying a CD, we gave it up

so fast. We gave it up so fast. And I think about it now in retrospect. I'm like, okay, I'm from New York. I remember there being a massive tower records downtown, right? Which was my favorite place to go. I would see the artwork and I'd meet people in there and you watch people pick up things and even that was a way for you to learn music.

And if you think about the fact that if all the record labels or all the power players or all the people that had money in this all had a godfather-like meeting and said like, what's the rent to keep the L.A., Miami, Chicago, and New York, one massive place open in their big cities. If it was $10,000 a month or $50,000 a month, it's actually a small price to pay to actually be able to go and get. you know even if there was a store where it wasn't selling the actual album but you had an opportunity to listen to it in a communal environment or there was like that the music industry said was communal that's what i'm saying like yeah we can go listen to music everywhere now for sure we can listen to in starbucks

but technically when you go listen to music in starbucks you're buying into the into coffee Starbucks is profiting and so when you go to apple you know the apple store to buy to buy something to buy music you have to buy computer before you buy music you have to have the You have to do, you have to get, you're right, paying me first before you get that. So technically music is almost a hobby to everyone else's industry. And when there's no hub for us to go to, that's just our own stuff, which makes it hard for there to be a community outside of this online. You're, you were still, you know, all those records, when you're talking about circus and my life would suck without you and, and, uh, party in the USA,

all these songs are starting to come out though, while people are still buying. CDs. Do you think? Like, at least the tail end. The tail end. I think I'm really grateful that I got the tail end of the old business into the new business. So, like, I got to work

with Clive Davis and watch him, like, do the old school A&R rollout for Whitney Houston and do, like, the whole, that doesn't really happen that way anymore. And I watched CD sales still be a thing. And I watched, even the Billboard charts. Like, I watched the old school, I watched

records climb, have to do the tough climb of the billboard chart was literally your hard copies and radio promo and stuff like that. And I watch it change and start to include streaming and all the stuff. And I've kind of, I've succeeded on both sides, but it's interesting to be on the cusp of that change. I think it actually benefits me because I'm able to be flexible with artists. Artists that are like 30 plus, I know how to talk to them and work with them and calm some of their fears. And I also know enough to work with artists that are 30 and under because I know what I know what it's takes and I know what Spotify looks like and I know.

Well, if you were, I mean, if you're four years older, you go through your entire Berkeley experience recording to tape. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And you go through your entire Berkeley experience without having email. Nope. Or you'd have email but not like where you'd actually be able

to look up information online. When I was at Berkeley. You know, it's like you're developing years. That's the cusp is our age. I think. You know, you had a cell phone sometime in college, if not. all of college. All of college.

Illegal downloading was the big thing when I was at. Like Napster and all the stuff. Freshman year. USC suit Napster when I was there. And it was like, wow, like my college is suing Napster. And our teachers are like, don't worry. People will support music. And you got to record a tape.

Digital's dead. And we'd go back to our rooms and use reason. And go on to Navster. And there was such a disconnect from our teachers to... Do you remember the big fear? The big fear was like, because there was maybe one of two cases where it was that like, if you were legally downloading, like, the FBI would basically come knock on your door. And like, you could get arrested for stealing online music.

So everyone was kind of like, it was like watching porn. Like everyone's in there like, don't download this song. And you felt like you're always looking over your shoulder because you thought the FBI was watching you personally. Yeah. They weren't. That was college. They weren't watching us personally. No, I don't think so.

I can give a shit. When you go through this run of not just number one songs, but like number one billboard songs, they're defining a number of artists. You know, you end up on obviously grenade ends up blowing up. And to be honest, as successful as Bruno was, when you wrote grenade, my guess is that was probably even maybe before nothing on you, right?

Yeah, it was before all that came out. Because it came out pretty close. So, you know, it's not like you were just, writing with established artists. You started working with unknown artists and at the time Bruno Mars was unknown just happened that... I know him as a writer because he was a writer in LA for a while. Yeah.

I actually love writing with new artists a little bit more. Of course. Were you starting to aim for that? I just never said no. Because once you work with Brittany then you get calls from all over and so there's a natural like where you work with her peers and I was always scared of burning out that way. And I always knew that you could be known for resuscitating a career or you could be known for breaking a career.

And breaking careers is, to me, a lot more meaningful. So Bruno, Ali Murs, Jesse J, Tori, Kelly, and a few, I'm forgetting people now. But I work with them specifically, Chrisette Michelle on the R&B side. I was like, let me work with people that I can help develop their actual voice that the world will now remember for us. because the thing about my fear with Britney Spears and I have it today I have it today with Brittany and I have it with Kelly Clarkson

is that if you don't come out in the beginning then technically your hit is how I see it. Your hit is just another song to knock off. Because Britney Spears has a gazillion smash records. So if she just doesn't feel like doing circus for the next tour right.

She might not. She might not do it. And also like to the songs that, like you were saying, they're resuscitating a career or, you know, breaking a career, the ones that land right in the middle of somebody's really successful career. Yeah. It's just another.

It's just another. It's just another song. I don't think anyone's looking at who they're right. If we're talking about the songwriter career, I agree. That for people to look up who the writers are, you have to be right in the beginning of their career. So, well, who's involved in that?

Or obviously, like you're saying, they're resuscitating. Yeah, you get in the middle of, of, of a, even Whitney, as cool as that is, it's still like, it's Whitney Houston. What are you going to do that competes with the 20 number ones? I'm proud to have worked with Whitney Houston and I have to run with Michael Jackson for all the obvious reasons.

Legendary people, they're singing your song. Not many people get to say that that happened. That's awesome. But the actual musical satisfaction of watching, part of the in the USA to help define who Miley Cyrus is as an artist today or the fact that people know Jesse Jay and know her for a price tag and domino and stuff like that means more because it comes from a much, much more original place. I couldn't, there's nothing to build from.

I knew it in Houston before I got in there with her. So you can assume much from the songs she's done and the interviews you know of her and the trials and tribulations and then you can kind of guess. Like it's not hard to figure out what. key to put Britney Spears in what she's talking about and you can kind of assume her where she's in her life but if I say there's a brand new pop star coming here that you'd never met before but she's going to be big help to find that when you nail that it's just like it's money you put a lot of time into Jesse Jay you know yeah I love Jesse I feel like that was that became kind of known in the industry that you

became you know her main collaborator really I think so I'll take it I thought so I don't know I'm in my bubble. This is also right when I'm, you know, I'm just started at that point, this has to be 2011 or 12 or something like that. And at the time, I'm just getting out of being in a band. So I was learning who all the players are in the business. Gotcha. You know?

I wasn't, I didn't, you know, when you're just starting out, what's cool about this podcast is that you're starting to quickly learn who these people are. But when at the time, there wasn't anything like that. So you're sitting there and you're like, I don't know, I guess, you know, who do you look up to, who's doing what? And you follow careers of songwriters. And there was this moment where it felt like that was, that just was a main focus for you was Jesse J. But maybe I'm wrong. No, no, no, I mean, it's always, it's always awesome.

It seemed like you put a lot of effort into that. I absolutely did. I'm really just more intrigued by, I guess, what the outside opinion is because I really do have blinders on a lot of time. And I go from like, okay, I did that, and I'm already into the next thing. So it's kind of cool just to hear what it seemed like from the outside. Jesse and I spent a lot of time together because she was important to label and she got signed. Everyone kind of knew she was special. And they, they, she did a showcase in L.A.

And myself and Luke and Max saw her. I knew that she was something. And then the first time we did with her, the first round, we departed in the USA. and we all thought it was a hit and so when the powers that be didn't think it was a hit it was a little confusing

because it was kind of like well you ask us to work with her and we thought she's amazing and then we turned around something that we think is amazing and now like like you guys should be the most gunhole about this

like this is what you want is for an artist to come and figure it out and to be a defying record and for it to sound great and with great writers and producers and so when it kind of fell by the wayside and kind of sat for a while

strangely the intrigue about Jesse Jay didn't fade because I felt like they're bugging like she's a star and we all felt that way and so when it actually came out on Miley we kept some backgrounds from Jesse J. on there because Jesse just her voice is insane and it kind of reinvigorated us to be like now now we have to really prove to them that

what did the label say when party in the USA was so big well it passed through a few labels that might be your biggest I mean I guess I mean I don't know I guess you've kind of like two or three that are tied. But that's so big. I love that one because for me it's not so much about the number on the chart. It's about it's cultural relevance.

Right. Totally. Yeah. And that's almost like July 4th is around the corner and I'm going to hear a shitload of times, which is embarrassing, but it's also like, holy shit. Like I have like a... You have a copyright. I have a copy right.

That's an evergreen. And that makes it one of the biggest ones for me, whether it's the most money-making one or whatever. I love that feeling. That's what I aim for. How did Jesse feel about it when it was big for Miley? Did she feel like that was supposed to be her record? I think we all felt like it was her record,

but it was a long time before it came out. Because it didn't go to Miley first. It went to a bunch of labels. Everyone heard it. Everyone loved it and was afraid to commit to it. Jordan Sparks wanted it at one point and what was dying to cut it and that didn't work out. To the point, I don't think people realize this,

but part of the USA was not even meant to be what it was. It was literally a one-off for Miley Cyrus's clothing campaign through Hannah Montana. It was like it was either a Target or a Walmart. I was a Walmart exclusive. So it wasn't like it had this big rollout. Like it was Miley Cyrus is back again. It was just like it kind of snuck in there. And as soon as it hit the internet, everyone like at the time was like Perez Hilton, everyone was like, have you heard this new Miley song?

And then the demand for it pushed it up to iTunes chart. and then they had to kind of like eventually open it beyond Walmart to it's funny I just realized this that my first single is a band that was coming out on Hollywood Records it wasn't a cut but they they were opening for Jonas brothers and in theory I think this was supposed to be a pretty big push for this band called Honor Society and the song came out

and they were on two tour, the whole tour is called Here Comes Trouble, which is the name of the song. And then Party in the USA came out, and the whole label was like, you know, basically anything that wasn't party in the USA, just

take a back seat because everyone had to, it was like all hands on deck. And I actually don't know if I've ever seen that really for another song where the label and almost everyone around it was like unprepared to deal with like how fast that song was going where everyone was

starting to push that yeah that that song feels different than you know even even grenade still following like three massive hits and circus is with grenade was a little similar though because I wasn't aware like because I knew him as a writer so it's a part of me is not not that I didn't believe because I wouldn't have gone in with him had I not believed in him but it's no different than like you say hey i'm doing my album and like you want to come right and i write something because i believe in you but then to watch the world understand what we always kind of know in our closed in our closed studios was impressive because like you said i did the song before and all that stuff came out so crazy and then i know it's great about i watched on twitter we were like

holy crap this song grenade is amazing and i'm like whoa like okay and then you kind of go with it i mean the guy is doing or just did the super bowl twice right Twice, dude. You know, you talk about, like, the princes of the world, you know, that went and did it once. Or, like, you know, Bruce Springsteen. And did it with Beyonce and Coldplay. Like, that's how big Bruno is. Bruno's not like, and he's that good?

Yeah, exactly. That the Super Bowl, instead of going with, you know, the Rolling Stones or whoever to go and do it, they're going to Bruno twice in three years. In three years. Like, I could easily see, you know, the whole. thing become that oh no it's the bruno mars halftime show because every year you get he's a residency at the half time at the super bowl that's awesome it's crazy right it's doable though because he's that good he's rock solid as a performer okay so real quick so you go from you know you've you've got all these cuts and then you kind of go uh you kind of go and do it seems like

other things like you go but that's the real questions so i need to know what happens basically there till now because You go into another world. I'm smiling because it's the part that I'm excited about. All that stuff is... All that's your past. I know this has been a lot. No, that's awesome.

But I need to know what happens to Claude Kelly. So, three or four years ago, I was working my ass off, doing everything that we just spoke of, working way too hard. Like, like I said, three, four sessions a day. My head was spinning. I was writing good stuff. I would call it good stuff. I wouldn't call it great, and it definitely not my best.

But definitely good enough to where, like I was still getting money and nothing to complain about. Totally depressed. In New York, and started, I was like, maybe this is it. Maybe I've done this. I've gotten my hit records

and I've worked with a lot of great people and I should just go do something else. And I started looking online to go get my master's degree in world religion. Just to like, not because I was trying to be like a priest or anything like that, but I just felt like this is a good excuse to travel and a good basis by which to travel and learn things and meet people and maybe be inspired to just do whatever's next in life. And I was sitting in my studio in New York and my buddy Chuck Harmony,

who was, we had the same manager at the time, I started telling him this. And he's like, that's funny because I was getting ready to go to the seminary. And so I looked at him and was like, you fucking crazy? Like, you're one of my favorite producers. You can't do that. Like, you gotta do more stuff. And he's like, you sound crazy because you're about to go to fucking grad school and stop writing. So that literally that day, that conversation led into like the reason why.

And the reason why became all these things that we were annoyed with in the business, the places we had been burned, the songs that we had been disappointed by, the sales that weren't good enough, all the shit that just kind of weighs us all down. And what it came down to in the end was that I felt, uninspired by the boxes that actual songwriting had become for me. It got to be three minutes and 30 seconds. It's got to be whatever to be PM. It's got to be in this key and have this EDM break and all that stuff.

And it becomes formula. And if you're a real creative person, that's a prison. That's just as bad as being broke and not having any placements and being told that you're black and you can't do pop music. You put yourself in the same box with a few more zeros in the band. So we're like, well, let's just go in the studio right now and not worry about the time or the tempo or the key and do what we want to hear. And so we did this song. And when it was done, it literally felt spiritual again.

It was like, whoa. It was potent. It was the best song I had written in years. The energy in the room was crazy. And literally that day, a new me started. and so that was when I decided to be an artist. It wasn't because I wanted to, and I had this master plan, and I was waiting for the right moment.

I literally got dragged into a kicking and screaming. And then when I thought it was just going to be artistry, we said, okay, well, every time we have a free moment in between doing the stuff we hate, we get in here on a Sunday and just do this. And 16 Sundays later, we had this body of work. And halfway through that, we're like, well, I guess we're a band. So I guess we should have a name.

I'm like, well, where are you from? He's like East St. Louis, Louis, and I'm from New York. So we're like, we'll call ourselves Louis York. Just literally the mashup of all of our influences, Miles Davis for him and Ray Charles and Bob Marley and Sting and Phil Collins and TLC and Biggie Smalls and just Shide, all the stuff. And every day we get in there and have this conversation about what was missing. And the job was to fill in the gaps.

So there already is a Beyonce. There already is an usher. Like, how come no one's talked about Rod Stewart in years? How come, like, there's this thing where, like, you study Michael Jackson so hard and Madonna so hard and Mariah Carey and those kind of like pillars that you realize that you're neglecting all this fucking amazing music that is not that. Like, no one's trying to sound like Cindy Lauper or Annie Lennox or Tracy Chapman or Shadei or Sting or until he passed away.

George Michael. I mean, literally all these sounds are the soundtrack of my life that are much more than just thriller and like a prayer and these things that we all try to chase and it opened up the world of sound for me and then it became a philosophy.

And we're like, well, how are we going to make this work? It feels like a business. It feels like this is what I want all my art to sound like and I want it to be profitable and commercial but have a meaning. And I want to work with people

that believe that. that. And so in all those conversations, the whole thing developed. We started a company called Weirder Workshop, which is literally just, first, it started off housing Louis York. And then we wanted to be like, we wanted to be a home for not only just artists that we sign, but it's a home for our friends, whether it's the artist that we work with through labels or our musician friends, to get it right, just to get it right and to think outside the box. So it's kind of kind of modeled after Muscle Shoals. We're not a record label.

We're not really, we're not like your hardcore record label. We're putting out records and chasing, trying to compete with Def Jam. We're a creative hub. And we set up shop in Nashville because we didn't want to be in New York or LA. New York is kind of dying creatively, which is sad. And LA is too crowded. And Nashville has a full respect of music, but it's growing and getting more diverse. So we didn't even, we didn't even set up a music role.

We set up in Franklin. So it's outside. It's like 20 minutes outside of Nashville. and we literally have a workshop it's all our offices there's like 10 people who work there there's an amazing studio upstairs and we're at the we're where i love to be we're at that stage right before it all breaks again so i'm doing the best music i've ever done and i don't say that everyone says like this is my this is my most meaningful work like this is my best it's not it's not that kind of a thing it's it's more it's not for me to say if it's my is my most popular work but

it's definitely the work i'm most proud of and also it's something most potent. So it's much less about knowing me because I did that one song that Miley brought to number one. It's about like getting artists to come and figure out who they are and give them a much more directed sound and get paid and get the credit for all the work that I'm that. I was kind of already doing that. But now it's, I have a reason and a purpose behind it and I know where I'm going with it. So I'm writing the songs. I'm writing more now than I did, probably than I did before. It's taking me longer. But I'm doing it with a lot of lot more focused than just being used for my three minutes and 30 seconds and then praying for the best

afterwards and i guinea pick louis york a lot of times because i think a lot of times i get frustrated waiting and so we do it ourselves and i think that as a male artist not trying to compete with chris brown or trying to compete with with beber there's a whole part of male artistry that's missing especially as a black male artist is if you're not usher of chris brown or or the weekend or drake now there's there's there's no the tones. There's no Marvin Gaze. There's no Arkellys. There's none of that stuff. It's literally

just a one-dimensional sound that we're trying to defy. Right. So I'm super duper happy, which you're probably hopefully hear from my voice. I'm excited about music again. And I'm excited about shifting culture again, which is what I think I did the last time by accident. And this time I'm doing with a little bit more purpose. And I'm learning

now because it's changing that. It doesn't have so much be a a number one on the charts for it to be culturally relevant. Like, my aim is in different places. So I love pop records, and I will always do that, but isn't, this may sound cheesy, but

isn't, isn't I love you, you love me by Barney, as big a hit record is. Yeah, right. You know what I mean? Like, isn't a Sesame Street song or every single fucking Disney song we know, or whatever, the theme song,

like we know the theme song, like, we know the theme song the Game of Thrones now just as well as we know so it's just trying to apply my creativity and break outside the box again in places where people won't suspect I'll be and for me it's artistry but also outside of artistry it's

having more of a say as a creative force are you going to end up having to team up with with like a bigger yeah we've had we've had offers we do like we have independent distribution through Sony Red which is now orchard I guess and that was on purpose because we wanted to maintain some

the creative control. A lot of this is just not being bound by even quarters and semesters and the Christmas break and all the kind of stuff that I think doesn't really matter. People want their songs when they want them. So never say never, but I'm more interested in finding cool partnerships per artist, per song, per project. And we really have a studio. So the draw now is come to Franklin for a week.

and we'll get your sound, we'll get your single, we'll get your look, and we'll also produce videos and everything, so it's a one-stop shop. I watched the Muscle Shoals documentary one day, and I've always been a fan of Hitsville, but I watched the Muscle Show's documentary,

and everyone should watch it, especially in the music business, because I don't think people realize that it's a bunch of white guys in Alabama that were doing all their favorite Aretha Franklin songs. Yeah. But the idea was,

you send this potential legend to a place where they can get away from the noise of managers and A&Rs and the press and even social media. And then you get respect and ain't no way and thank and all those massive records. And so we're getting them to come down here. We've had a bunch of cool people that are just starting to come down here. Anyone you can name or not yet? Across the board, we did, you know, the country artist named Cam.

She recorded there. Maya, the R&B artist has been there. A gospel artist, we just named Leandro Johnson, was there. Roe James was just in there I'm forgetting a bunch of people now I hate when I do this Deborah Cox was in there It's happening

And it's not Listen I'm impatient And I'm like I tell you at the beginning I expect like excellent So for me it's not okay until Yeah you can be patient and urgent at the same time Exactly but if people are wondering where I am It's not I didn't disappear

I'm a Capricorn And Capricorn like Capricorns like to climb the mountain and then throw themselves off the cliff and then climb up the mountain again. So technically that's kind of what I did. It was like, okay, cool. Now that I can do that.

Let's see if you can do it a different route. Well, okay, so then last question is, do you have any personal life? No. Nice. I'm not allowed. I mean, my personal life is... During all this, you're going through all this craziness.

No, I had an amazing girlfriend for seven years, and we're talking engagement. all that stuff and I literally that was part of one of the things that I lost as part of this growing up. I call it growing up because I definitely feel like I'm a different, I feel like I'm a different person. I think differently. I look differently.

I sing differently. I'm a lot more confident. But there's, I guess there's a regret because who wants to say goodbye to an awesome thing? But this has become my life. And not in a way where it's not in a way where like, oh, you're a workaholic and you're doing it for the money

and you got to find some time for yourself. it's all encompassing in an amazing way. Like we're a family. Everyone there works together and respects each other. I still hang out and have friends and do all normal social stuff, but I would be lying if I said that this wasn't my life. Totally. And I don't regret that right now.

I'm on a mission to do something that's more than just, if I'm known for what I've done already, I'm grateful, but I wouldn't say I'm, I'm satisfied. So this is about me doing something that I think will be a bigger legacy for myself. The theme for everything we do is this thing called deep fried veggies. So this is name of actually Louis York's album

that'll be the next year, but what's the philosophy is that you give it to them fried, everyone wants it fried, but then when they bite down, they don't realize they're eating broccoli. So it's just doing art that is appealing to everybody, but it's also it's not a flash in the pan

which is always my biggest fear that you'll be forgotten or that it won't last. So just doing more smart work. We got to go to the last segment, which is going to be, I'm going to list five people, and you're going to just say the first thing that comes off the top of your life.

I'm going to get in trouble. Okay. All right. Go ahead. Let's go with Dr. Luke. Tortured genius. Oh, I like that. Let's go with Miley Cyrus.

Rockstar. Let's go Jesse Jay Silly I love that I think people see her as like this intense singer But she's silly When I think of Jesse Jay I think of when you first saw her with the bangs

And do it like a dude in price tag That's Jesse J to mean That's to me like the heart of who she is She's a fun loving crazy wild girl I love that Let's go Chuck Harmony One word Damn it

You can go two words if you need Masterful Ahead of his time too. Chuck Harmony, dude, I get asked the most, if I can be really candid, I get asked the most why Chuck Harmony

because I work with a lot of people and he's worked with a lot of people too, so why I decided to partner with him as opposed to anyone? And again, I like to work with people that we can build something together. People have no idea.

He plays every instrument. And he can, he's literally, if there is something that reminds me of Quincy Jones, and capability. Like, could do jazz, could do pop, could do rock,

could do soundtracks. It's Chuck Harmony. I love that. Yeah, it's insane. You kept mentioning Ali Mears, and so I'm going to go with the British steves. Steve Mac and Steve Robson.

Yeah. Two of the best producers in the UK, and every time I'd go to the UK, it was always one week after you were there, or it would be like, you were like a week after, it'd be like... I apologize. No, no, it's so good.

We have to work out our calendar, so... I know, right. But it was a interesting thing because I'd go out there and it was always like, they were always editing something you had just done or I was like, I was leaving and then I'd be like, oh yeah, you know, Claus coming out next week. I was like, you know, we never actually hang out. We need to go together so we just knock it all out.

Steve Mack is meticulous. Absolutely. Maticulous. Steve Robson is quirky. Yeah. He's another thing. Steve Robson is in town right now. He is in Nashville right now.

I saw him before. I went to New York for the web, but I saw him when he first got here. But the thing about Steve is that he's, I love working with him because people don't know all that he can do. He can really do anything. Anything. He's a massive Rascal Flats producer also ends up doing massive, you know.

All the Ali Mergers. It's just totally different stuff. I love going to London for that reason because the two steves are like, that's just a whole trip by itself, those two. Well, thank you for doing this. You know, you and I are, you know, having gone through the same, being the same age.

And artistically speaking, you feel like you're in your, you're about to release your, the music you are most proud of regardless of the success of it. and I'm currently about to do the same thing, and having gone through a life of pursuing music in whatever capacity you can,

and to go and, like you said, you know, you climb these mountains, and those are beautiful mountains. But still the pursuit is, I still like the kid that was so broke that he might as well start writing a musical because no one would have them in the room. And that is my, the thing that I can now share

and open a door for that because I can now. Yeah, thank God. And somebody might want to listen to it. And when you're saying that you're going to Franklin to start this weirdo thing and defying, you know, whatever boxes people put around you

because you are finally doing music that you're like, you know what, that's why you started this whole thing was to do something that makes you smile and to be honest, it's infectious. Everyone around you is going to smile and root for you because you're going to be smiling. Hopefully.

That's all it's about for me is I literally feel like a kid again. I have more of those feelings when I'm like, that's how I felt when I heard so-and-so for the first time. That's all I'm chasing is that are those chills of when you, like, oh my God, this is a new thing. This is music is amazing. I feel that a lot more now I mean it's already successful man

it's successful enough that I see how happy it's making you there's no way that you are going to beat you know it doesn't matter who cuts a record it doesn't matter how big it gets you're just happiest when you're happiest yeah that's true you know like nothing

you've already reached a level of success on you know the Lewis York stuff the stuff that you're doing in Franklin without ever even releasing the music is already successful. That's my lesson for the day. Hell yeah.

I'm grateful already. Thank you. Well, thank you for doing this. And let's get in an actual room together and write. Finally, man. Let's do this. All right, I'll make that. Appreciate it. Thanks for listening to this episode of And The Writer is.

If you want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed, be sure to check out our Spotify playlist. Or visit our website at and The Writer Is.com. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe to us on iTunes. You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter. And The Writer Is is produced by Joe London, edited by Miles Bergsmah, and published by Big Deal Music. A special thanks to David Silberstein from Mega House Music and Michael White. On next week's episode, we sit with Dan Wilson live on YouTube.

Ross, I'll tell you what. I'll tell you the three rules I had. when I started Semi-Sonic. I got the guys together. I got John and Jake together and basically pitched them on the idea of we're going to be a band and we're all going to pitch in together and we're going to like make, I guess, hit songs, but by our own lights. And I told him, here's what I would like to be our, well, it was our four rules, really.

One was we're going to split all the proceeds equally, but I get the last word. That was really helpful. Two was life is more important than music. Three was, if we're having a bad time, we have to stop and go get a drink at the loring bar. And four was if a song isn't sounding good, we're going to throw it away. and I'm going to write a new one. I just didn't want to slave over something anymore, like trying to make something sound better.

Because what I found was, if you write a great song, it just sounds good right away. So you might as well just like till it under and write a new song. Until next time, this is Ross Golan.