And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 262: Ryan Beatty | How to Make It in Music Without Losing Yourself

Episode Date: September 1, 2026

Today's guest is an artist and songwriter whose career has taken him from teenage YouTube covers to working with Beyoncé, Tyler, The Creator, Brockhampton, Miley Cyrus and Jack Antonoff.But this conversation is really about something bigger: How to build a career in music without losing yourself along the way.Ryan talks about learning to trust his own taste, being grateful he never had a hit record, protecting what makes an artist special, and refusing to let success, algorithms or other people's expectations define him.We also get into Boy in Jeans, Brockhampton, Tyler the Creator's unexpected DM, writing four songs on Cowboy Carter, the making of "Bruises Off the Peach," and his new album Sweet Fortune.And The Writer Is... Ryan Beatty!Subscribe for more conversations with the artists, songwriters and producers shaping music.Follow us: @andthewriterisA special thank you to our sponsors:NMPA — the National Music Publishers' Association Splice — the best sample library on the market. Period.Chapters0:00 Intro1:36 The Greek, Hollywood Bowl & Pokémon evolutions3:08 Being made fun of for singing4:09 “I refuse to continue just being one thing”8:32 Why being hard to define is freedom9:52 How Ryan approaches a songwriting session11:52 Teach people how to treat you13:43 “I’m grateful I’ve never had a hit record”14:12 What success feels like vs. what it looks like20:08 “I didn’t feel smart enough to be a songwriter”20:55 Boy in Jeans — finding his voice as a songwriter26:42 Jack Antonoff and an unexpected Broadway placement27:30 NMPA + Splice29:19 His advice for artists going viral31:55 The moment he decided to do it his way34:06 Brockhampton, Kevin Abstract & finding confidence37:05 Why Ryan never pitches songs40:43 Tyler, The Creator’s unexpected DM42:35 Dreaming of David, touring & burnout44:52 Making “Bruises Off the Peach”48:17 Finding his actual singing voice50:30 Cowboy Carter — four songs, told nobody54:30 Making Sweet Fortune & chasing timelessness57:32 How he wants listeners to see themselves in his songs59:36 Amy Allen, Clairo & making the studio a place of joy1:04:25 “Doing this is scary for me”CreditsHosted by Ross Golan Produced by Joe London & Jad Saad Edited by Jad Saad Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to And The Writer is. I'm your host Ross Golan. They say it takes 10 years to make an overnight success, while today's guest has put in the work and earned his place as one of the industry's best new artists. What started as a teenage YouTube phenomenon evolved into one of the most promising careers in music. Not to mention, he's written with royalty like Beyonce Tyler, the creator, Miley Cyrus, and, Brockhampton all the way from California. He's built a career rooted in honesty over hype. And the writer is Ryan Beatty. That's beautiful.

Hey. Honesty over hype. It's delicious. You can steal that. I will. You're known as like a real tastemaker. Am I? I think so.

Cool. We always write with stuff before it's cool and you kind of, you know, I mean, well, I mean, you yourself are cool before you were cool. So that's a tastemaker Well look like you said It's taken a long time to get here And kind of maybe awkward at first To get here

My early career was Looks very different than how it looks now But I think all of that was important Are you here now? Do you know what I mean? Like is there or there there? Like where is? Starting off way too deep.

Whoa, hold on, let's get there Let's get there. All right, well fine. I think I'm here now. All right? Yeah. Where do you want to go.

Who knows? Who knows? I mean, I guess I don't have a specific place in mine. What's the dream place for you to play? For a while it was the Greek, and I'm playing the Greek. So now I guess the Hollywood Bowl? The Greek is the best venue in LA. The Greek is so cool. Yeah, I'm very excited for that. I mean, Hollywood Bowl is cool, but... Yeah, of course. It's kind of like the larger version of that. I played the Ford. Have you

into the Ford before. That's a cool thing. So the Ford feels like sort of like if, you know, we're talking about Pokemon evolution's right. It's like the Ford's like, you know, the starter. I feel like the Greek is like that middle and then Hollywood. I'll kind of remind me of each other. Are you into Pokemon?

Oh my God, are you kidding me? I grew up obsessed with Pokemon. Really? Yeah. Did you collect cards and stuff? I did, yeah. Do you still have any? I probably do somewhere in the archives in my parents' garage.

I feel like people would be surprised by, like, my interests in that way, because I'm not very open about my personal life with my music. I actually am. Music is very personal, but personality-wise, like, I'm learning how to open up a bit more with that. Because ultimately, it's what makes me feel more comfortable. It feels scary sometimes to talk about, like, my personal life in some ways. Like outside of music? Oh man, how much time do you have? There's just probably so many reasons.

A lot of it has to do with maybe growing up. Even with music, I felt a little bit embarrassed by singing, by loving to sing because I was made fun of it for liking it a lot growing up. So early on I had this idea that I, was to be sort of ashamed by the things that I enjoy. And it led to a lot of compartmentalizing, you know, feeling a bit, like, fractured. Because I was also a skateboarder at the time.

Like, I was a big skater. So, like, I'd be doing musical theater in the summer. And when my friends would want to skate, I wouldn't be telling them, like, oh, I can't because I'm doing theater. Like, I kept it really separate because I was really shy about it. and the two could never exist, you know what I mean, at the same time. And it's a lot of what I talk about in therapy,

but I'm really learning to still like be all parts of myself and one and like loving that and living in it, like, you know, constantly searching for that freedom because I refuse to continue just being one thing and showing one thing.

it's not fun it's suffocating yeah yeah it takes a it takes a confidence when i was in high school and i remember opening opening night of our town was was the state playoff game for hockey and i was like well i'm in theater i'm a theater kid like i i got to go do this and i miss and and i never from that point on i could never go back i could never go back i i'm a theater kid like i i i got to go back to that hockey team. Like, they just, like, it was not appreciated. And, like, I was, like, a theater kid. And it was this moment of even just that,

let alone the other parts to that. It's just this idea, like, trying to, you know, follow your heart and whatever that is and be like, I like, I like this, I like that. And it's okay to be multifaceted and unique and in your loves of life. I think that's just, like, like everyone's mission in life is to just continue to like find the core of you and not be

afraid of what that really looks like. At least for me, that's what I'm constantly trying to do. And I think that you can probably hear the music as well, you know. Yeah, no question. When talking about, you know, the fact that when I think of drag music, I think it's going back, it's like this high energy like dancing. It's like it's a party. like a lot of it. I mean, where it's like really this,

you know, these big ballads or whatever the thing is. It's really bombastic music. It feels like it's a show, you know? When, is there a part of you that has wanted to make music

that your brother could perform? You know, could perform. No, I mean, it's totally separate. You know what I mean? It'd be fun to see that.

But at the same time, um, you know, It's a different art form. When you're little and you're doing, you know, musical theater stuff, is that the introduction to sort of music in your family? Maybe as a performer, but music, no. I mean, music was a big part of my life because of, you know,

my dad had pretty good taste, has pretty good taste. Like what? Like, I listen to a lot of James Taylor. I feel like that was like a big staple. John Denver as well. Stevie Wonder. That all makes sense a lot. Yeah.

That's interesting, yeah. It's funny too because that sort of formative music for me. And then as I got older, I kind of didn't touch back on it until, like, I would say in the last six years or so, where like, I don't know. It's so funny how you can grow up and, like, leave some things behind and they all return back to you at some point in life. and you're like, oh, like, this is actually, like, really deeply part of the fabric of who I am. And it's fun to, like, see that return in some ways. It's cool to reference those, too, because that's an era, listening to the new album, which has a lot of Americana and country influence in it and this wide variety of genre.

And when you think of what James Taylor was doing and what John Denver were doing, they were these crossover artists. you know, this is James Taylor was fulky, but he was pop. He had pop hits, but he was folkie, but he wasn't, but he was. And then in retrospect, you're like, it's just James Taylor. And John Denver is the same thing. Clearly, it's country, but it's not. He had pop hits. You know, those are real crossover songs. And if you're saying, you know, showing that those things really influenced, you know, where you are now as a musician makes a lot of sense. When people ask you, What genre are you? Does it drive you nuts?

Yeah. Does it bother you that you're hard to place in a genre? No. I actually think that, I mean, that's freedom, you know, artistic freedom in a way. It's like I have to chase what excites me and what feels real to me. And honestly, like, I can't boil that down to one genre. And it's not like I'm trying to find places to land. And it's just like whatever I chase, I end up chasing. And I always want to be able to surprise myself in that way.

But ultimately, it's not surprising to me because it's what I love. It's the music I love and what I'm drawn to. But it takes a, you know, you're a great singer. You could sing a lot of things and it'd be good. What makes you special is your artistry and being able to direct that conversation. because most people who sing really well and may like a lot of music and may want to go into a certain direction

don't really have that conviction of where they want to go right now. You know, well, I was going to say, like the people you surround yourself with are excellent musicians, you know, Ethan and whatnot, we can get to some of your collaborators. When you walk into a room,

How do you approach a session? Well, I try not to overthink it, you know, because I think there's been so many times, especially when I was younger, but I've walked in and I'm like, I'm going to be so prepared today. And I'm going to be so in whatever space that is that exists and it's like nameless. It's just that creative space that you go to when you're like really locked in, you know, which is like the best feeling ever. I used to think that I could trick myself into it and I've learned that there's no tricks for me. Like it just, some days I go in and I'm like so tired and I'm like, I don't know if I can make anything today.

I feel exhausted physically and just I don't think I put two words together. And then one thing hits me, whether it's a melody or a chord that's being played and then something beautiful happens where I'm like, oh, it's right there. I could see it clearly. I know exactly what I want to say. or there are times where I go in and I'm like, I have an idea. And then it's just you feel like you're wrestling with something that doesn't need to be wrestled with. And then you don't end up making a song.

And it's also important to not be frustrated on those days because, you know, many times I've left the studio and been like, I don't think I'm ever going to write another song again. I don't think I have any other songs to give. Like, can you run out of words? Can you run out of ideas? is like, it feels like that sometimes. It feels like that, especially at the end of writing an album where I'm like, whof, I've given everything I can.

What else could there be? There's always something. That's the moment when you walk in because the label says, we need a deluxe single. And you're like, what? I just gave you the thing. And then all of a sudden you have to go back in. You know, then you show up to a place.

I just finish the album. I don't want to do this. I have to say, though, I can't speak for everybody, but for me, like, I feel like I've really, you know that term like teach people how to treat you? I feel like in music, there's times where I've been incredibly stubborn, like with my work. I think it's important as an artist to be a bit stubborn because, you know, you know what's good for you, you know it feels good. Sometimes I've been stubborn in the totally, totally wrong ways. And it's just, you know, anxiety appearing as me, like, protecting myself somehow.

It's taking a long time to learn when to kind of be like to really, you know, hold my ground, say no. And the times to be like, okay, let me listen to the people around me. But I will say that nothing is ever asked of me that feels like super not true to me. Because I think I've established what I will do and what I won't do. So I feel a lot of respect with the people that surround me that work with me because they accept me as the artist as I am. And I'm really grateful for that because I know that's not the case for a lot of artists, especially younger artists. You know, people really want the chance that's given to them and they see it.

You know, I remember when I was really young and I thought that like, here's my shot. Oh my God. Totally flopped. Totally failed. And I was like, oh, I don't think I'll ever. get one of those again, but it just takes a lot of time, you know, and to not see things as life or death as an artist. That initial flop is essential for a human.

It is. And when you see the artist who succeeds on that first try and you see them develop as a human, it is hard. Oh, my God. Because the ego, when you first get that first record deal and it's like, here, this album's coming out, it's going to be a smash. If it's a smash, then the next time you, you're going to be a smash, then the next time you, you're me of a flop, you are going to be massively ill-prepared for it.

You're chasing the dragon, you know, and yeah, and then at some point you have to ask yourself, like, what am I doing this for? Because it feels good to, you know, I'm actually grateful I've never had a hit record before, like, because I feel like that sometimes can feel, not to say, I wouldn't love that, you know, it would be great. I just feel like that can create an anxiety. You know, it's funny. It's like it seems like success because it is success in a numerical way. But what's important to me is learning what success actually feels like versus what it looks like. That is a big facade that you have to see through.

What is success here? I think success is being able to play a show with the Greek and do it the way that I want to do it, even if it's taken this long, you know, whatever, and get to make records that I love to make, get to work with artists and producers and the musicians. The musicianship that I'm surrounded by is, like, top tier. You know what I mean? I get to work with people that are the best at what they do.

Like, that's success, you know? And there's many other examples there, too, but... If a song becomes a smash, smash, how does that change who you are as an artist now? Something, okay, I don't know because it hasn't happened, so who's to say? I can't predict the future, but something I consistently try and overcome is the idea of perception, the perception of me as an artist. I think that when more eyes are on you, the more pressure it is to rise to the level that people expect from you. You know, you see it with pop stars all the time where

their new era, they're like, you feel that pressure buildup of like, okay, we're going to tease it perfectly, we're going to drop the song and it has to be number one on Billboard or because the last time I did it, it was number one. So, you know, and if it doesn't reach that point, then the narrative is going to be, ah, not as good as the last time or, you know what I mean? That is a scary game to play. Some people do it really well and then some people let it be what drives them. And I think ultimately that is putting the pen in the listener's hand. You know what I mean? That's putting so much power in the perception of you rather than making things from passion,

making things from realness because you love it. And yes, both can exist at the same time. But you have to know the game you're playing there because it's a scary game. People are so reactionary these days, you know. Oh, man. You know, there's a liberation, I think, in respecting your audience enough to give them an album they weren't expecting. Something that you believe in that is different, so they have to go on that journey. The expectation of having to have number one songs, that's wild.

Yeah, it is. So let's go back. We're, you know, you were saying you were raised in a house where there's, you know, James Taylor and there's Stevie Wonder and there's John Denver. When do you first think that you can write a song? I remember writing a song when I was in maybe like fifth grade. How does it go? I'm not going to do that for you. No, come on, man.

Okay, what's the call? Oh, my God. I'm giving you way too much. much right now. I don't know. Maybe I'll feel comfortable answering that in a second. But let me just say this. Okay, what's it called? Classic. Dad joke. It's actually called Phantom and it's the first song on this new record. No, I'm just kidding. That'd be so wild. Thank you. It's called secret language. No, I'm just kidding. That's also a song. Yes, I know. I'm got it. I'm with you. We're on the same page. Yeah.

So for a long time, I knew I was a good singer when I was young. Singing was the first thing I had felt great at. You know, you always, I think, like, in life, you find that one thing that, like, feels special to you. It was singing for me. And when I started doing music when I was, like, 15, I had an idea of the kind of artist I wanted to be. I knew I wanted it to feel That's so young, man I know, I know

I know. It's crazy That is so young too My life, I'm 30 years old right now But you have that conversation You know This idea of walking into a session And be like this is what I want to sound like Started basically at 15

Whether you knew that's what you wanted or not But to say like at 15 you had an idea of what you wanted to sound like or what kind of, maybe what kind of artist you wanted to be? That's a wild statement. So remember when I said I was stubborn? So when I was young,

the word no came from my mouth a million times more than yes. And I think early on when I was first working with the people I was working with at that time, it was, why don't you do this? I was like, no, I knew what I did not like. I didn't maybe have the vocabulary

for what I wanted because I was 15 years old or who I was as an artist fully because I was 15 years old. You know what I mean? How did you meet people at all that wanted to work with you at that age? Well, I was, you know, I posted videos on YouTube.

I was like doing covers and stuff and it was like doing well. Yeah, that started that way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so yeah, it was a trip to like publicly try things and figure myself out. didn't know who I was as a person yet, yeah.

But back to the question about being a songwriter. At the time, I didn't feel smart enough. I didn't think I could be a songwriter because I felt like it didn't get good grades in school. I didn't hate writing, but I just didn't like doing English class. Like, all of that. Like, I was just like, I didn't feel intelligent enough. the idea of that.

So, but I knew that I wanted to be a songwriter. I didn't really trust my own voice, though, for a long time. Your own written voice? Yeah. And then I think when I, a little bit before I wrote my first album, I could tell my passion as a songwriter had grown a lot. I also started to feel like I was building my own language for it, which felt exciting.

You know that exhilarating feeling when you're writing? You're like, oh, like, like, like, This is me, and I feel like no one else can say this right now because this coming from me. It's not what sounds like this person or that person. And maybe it's not great, but it feels exciting to me. And then when I started working on my first record, Boy in Jeans, I mean, that was it for me. That was when I fell in love with songwriting. And it came so quick.

Like, I wrote that album in basically a month. And just off pure excitement and the... That's a decade after you started, you know, you started, you know, your first song. It was summer of 2017, so yeah, it was like, you know, six years, but it was 21 at the time. No, 20, I was about to turn 21. It was a summer. I was 20 years old.

And yeah. So who heard any of these? Sorry, timeline. Who heard any of these songs from the fifth grade you to 21 year old, do you? Who heard those songs? Yeah. I mean, some of them existed, you know? I had put some of those out.

When was the first time you played something for your parents? Like, was it that song? We were like, hey, I wrote a song. song? Yeah, I mean, at the time I had... Were they always supportive of this? They were, yeah. Yeah, that's great.

They were supportive of me and really appreciative of that, you know, because I was, you know, young and had a dream and it's crazy to like let your kid pursue it and they did the best they could and, yeah, really supported me. So, so tell me from... fifth grade to 14 when you started posting on YouTube you're doing

is that when you were saying you kind of learned who you were as a performer from musical theater? Yeah just... Is that around that time? Yeah, I mean, even earlier than that, I like being on stage was really fun. What were some of the musicals you were in? Let's see.

I was in this one it was called 13. Oh, yeah, it's Jason Robert Brown. Jason Robert Brown. And, oh, my God, that was when I really fell in love with performing. It's like, Ariana Grande's like... Okay, let me tell you something. Yeah.

I remember, this was like right after... He's been on this podcast, by the way. What did you say? Jason Robert Brown's on this podcast. Incredible. Anyway, sorry, keep going. No, so, Ariana. Ariana, I remember she was in that musical, and I was, you know,

I remember looking up some of the performances. This was like 2010 of the cast because I think had just been on Broadway. So like we were kind of early on and doing like the local productions of it all. And I remember seeing a video of the whole cast singing one of the songs. And she stuck out to me. I remember hearing her voice and being like, that girl's voice is insane. Like I was blown away by her. And then like a year later she had started posting videos on YouTube.

but I think she was also on that show at the same time. And it's just insane to see, you know, not to be like, I was there early on, but like, you know, I knew her from that musical. And then, like, seeing her career now, I mean, like, she's incredible. She is incredible. I actually saw her in New York recently. I went to her show. Amazing.

Yeah, she's a legend. A lovely person. So you were in 13? What else were you? I was. I was also in... Were these professional, like local theaters? Community theater, yeah.

Oh my God, some things are so embarrassing. I mean, I was in, you know, bye-by-birdie and... Okay, this is a good one. No, this is... Bye-bye Birdie's a classic. Okay, come on. Yeah, I was in mostly classics. It was definitely not.

I was not in mostly classics. So there was, in elementary school, I was in high school musical. Oh, yeah. And I played the character. Ryan. And then a year later, I was in the local production of high school musical, too. And I played the character Ryan. So, yeah, it was a big role for me.

Your resume, your theater resume is like, this feels made up. It was, I mean, a super method. Yeah, right. Yeah. Today you are Ryan, okay. Ryan, res, Ryan. Yeah. I was in the music, man.

Oh, there you go. Yeah. Who were you in that? I played Winthrop. Oh, well, the wealth, far away. Yeah, exactly. I had to, you know, do the Lisp and all. I think I had, like, kind of a natural list at that point.

I feel like now if you did the production, you'd have to probably, like, maybe play a little bit with, that feels pretty archaic to have a lead character with a, you know, because they talk about the Lisp so much. It feels like a speech impediment is something that isn't, You know, wildly. Yeah, no, I don't know if I would. That's a rule.

Maybe I don't think I would reprise. Yeah. At this age, I hope so. We were talking about that song from that musical, you know, that stands for pool. That's it. Right here in, River City. Yeah. That there's no rhyming in that song.

That's an amazing song. It's like almost like a lot, but there's no rhyming in that song. On the music, he's spinning bars. Yeah. Okay. you're in Music Man. There you go. Were you going to be on Broadway?

Was that ever, was that ever, did you want to do theater? It was one of those things where, you know, as a child, you're like, that would be so cool someday. But funny enough, I've recently had a song in a Broadway production, which was really cool. Which one? That's called Man of the House. And I did that with Jack Antonoff. That's right. Originally, the Romeo and Juliet.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's great. We originally wrote that just together for, just for our, like, we just had a session together. It was like 2019. The song like hung around for a long time. And then I was boarding a plane from New Orleans and I was in the airport and he called me and I'm like, what's up? He's like, hey, I'm doing the music for this production for Romeo and Juliet. We'd love to use this.

And I was like, dude, hell yeah. So that was a little bit of like a, you know, childhood dream to be part of a production in some way. I mean, it's awesome. Yeah. NMPA is our lead sponsor yet again. What is the National Music Publishers Association? What do publishers have to do with songwriters anyway? Well, unlike artists who can be unsigned artists,

there is no such thing as an unsigned writer. You can be a self-published, a co-published, or a published writer. Publishers only make money if songwriters make money. So NMPA goes in fights for you. They go to Congress. they go and support the community. They fight DSPs to get you paid more. That's what they do.

They fight for you, and they fight for this podcast. So thank you for fighting for songwriters NMPA. Thank you for fighting for us too. Let me tell you about Splice's Sounds plugin. It brings millions of royalty-free, high-quality samples right into your DAW, making it easier to search, preview, and drag and drop sounds all over within your project in any DAW. FL Studio Logic Pro, you know how it works. I've been testing out a new tool called variations

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because they're succeeding on YouTube and on Instagram and people are hitting them up saying, hey, come and do this album. Yeah. I would say that remember what's special to you and hold onto it really tightly and protect that. Protect that more than anything. like remember how fragile it is to you believe that it's fragile believe that it's special um and hone in on that you know what i mean i think it's interesting it's like with with where we are now in music and culture and you know everything is found through an algorithm

it's important for people to things can happen really fast but slow down as much as you can too you know what I mean like if you are if you're great at what you do even if right now like something you post or a song you share like goes you know viral

which is a word that I hate saying don't let that be the thing that fuels you like believe in the thing that you're actually passionate about and take your time, take your time, take your time. Because that's not necessarily asked of artists these days, I think. It's not about taking your time. There's no human.

There's very little humanity in the when the people who are in a position to ask artists or demand artists to act a certain way, it'd be antithetical to their business. business in their business model yeah i mean i'm well aware that this is a business but i'm also well aware that this is my life you know and i've been in conflict at times with that you know of um what could work but remembering my human in it you know me this is this is all my eggs in the basket. So when did you, when did you come to that realization that in, in the process of

becoming a professional musician off after YouTube, did you realize, you know, boy in jeans makes sense, but there's a lot of music between, you know, YouTube and boy in jeans. Yeah. So when in that process did you realize, hey, you got to, you got to pull the reins on this? You got to slow up and I need to go back to like who I am. Yeah. I was around 18 years old and I had a moment with myself where I was like, if I'm going to continue to do this, then I have to do this like my way or I have to like listen to my heart. And I still did music. I still would do shows at times just because it was like I was passionate about it and things would come up and I'd be like, sure, like I'll show up and do it.

But I wouldn't say like things started getting serious until that first record, Boy in Jeans. And that was the moment where I really was like, okay, I have now like nothing to lose. Like I've lost everything that I thought I needed to continue. Like I wasn't doing the YouTube thing anymore. I was just like there at this point like I had this is just because I'm passionate about it. So to see the success that that album got and the sort of response that that album had, it felt like I had proven to myself that trusting myself was the most important thing. And that has proven itself again and again and it's like if that again,

it's like if that's the thing I could tell other young artists to believe in, it's like just trust yourself. I mean, that's your fingerprint, you know, as an artist, is that that confidence of this is me is everything. Your story is interesting because you've succeeded so well at writing for other people and with other people. How do you get involved in Brockhampton? I became friends with Ian. I'd heard his record.

we had worked with a similar producer, the same producer that produced his album, American Boyfriend. I had worked with, and he had posted the record, I'd listened to it, and I was, like, so moved by it. It was cool to see, like, another queer artist, like, just saying, speaking their heart unabashedly, like, really being honest in the music. So we became friends, and,

I think Brockhampton already been a thing, but they had just started putting out the first saturation. And it was so crazy to see them blow up the way they did. And it was, I mean, to be involved in any way was really cool because it started off as a friendship between me and Ian. And then at one point he was like, you know, you should try some vocals on this. I was really shy.

I was really shy because I never wanted to feel like I was including myself or like trying to like jump into a space that I wasn't invited in, but felt invited to. So I did it. And right then and there, I realized like how much I had grown as an artist, just like off of what was happening in the room and like the instincts that I had as well. It felt like a really important time for me. And it gave me a lot of confidence, you know. I remember when bleach came out. And he's seeing the response of that song, I was like, I felt so cool. It was cool to be part of something that also felt cool. You know what I mean? That was a new thing for me. Walk me through the day that you wrote Bleach. Well, yeah. So it was like summer 2017, I want to say like July.

I'm guessing July. It was in North Hollywood. I had also started working on my album Boy in Jeans at the time. literally the neighborhood, one neighborhood away. It was like, could walk there, basically. And Ian was in there. Ramil was in there. And, I mean, the track was already so gorgeous.

Like, we'd love the idea. Ian mentioned, like, Lauren Hill melodies. And we started singing this melody together. And what we were doing a lot of times, we were, like, trying to channel maybe, like, artists. Like, with sugar, I was, like, you know, I was thinking of Siza. I was like, what would Sizza?

a sing right here, you know. That was later on, like 2019, but it was fun to do that a little bit, like, trick your mind a little bit to, like, you know, have fun with it, take yourself out of it a little bit. And then when we recorded Bleach and then hearing the vocals pitch down, like, I just knew that song was special. Was that your first experience really writing with artists outside of your, yeah, yourself? Did you find that addicting? Do you enjoy that? I do enjoy it.

I don't do it as much as maybe people think, but I, yeah, it's fun. Between the, you know, obviously the Beyonce stuff and the Miley and then, you know, the Jack Antonoff story and so it seems like you do it more than I think you do. It's maybe just, you're batting. average is incredible well i was just going to say this um i i've never written like i've never pitched songs or like written songs and like see like oh maybe this will end up something it's like

everything i do i try and make it feel very intentional and regardless of the artists use it or not but i will say that like i don't i've never shown up to just like hopefully get a cut on something I show up because I feel like I have something to say and I only say things when I think it's worth saying or singing. And I think that's why every time I've set out to write for another artist it's connected because I give it the same love I would give for my own music, even if it is genre different or...

That's a lot of emotional gift. Thanks. I mean, doesn't that in a sentence, that sounds exhausting, too. Yeah, but it's what makes it worth it. You know, it's painful. Sometimes it's fun, you know, but it's, like, why do it if there's not a little bit of friction, you know? That's important. Boy in jeans is great.

Thank you. Good job. Thanks. I like that. I can't believe the album came out eight years ago. Yeah, time flies. It scares me. I mean, the fact is that you want to be like, let's delete COVID during that.

True. It feels unfair. I feel like whenever I look at that, yeah, it does seem like a long time ago. Yeah, well, I dropped my second album literally right before COVID. Yeah, we'll get to that. That's a crazy time to do that. But the success of that album, you know, that's sort of when I think most of us, at least the business, have an idea if they didn't know,

who you were before that. They certainly know who you were at that point. How did that change your perception of yourself? You've talked about how that album gives you the confidence as a songwriter. How did that change your perspective of yourself as an artist? I felt like my voice was actually being heard, you know? I felt people finally cared about something that felt real to me. And then I felt, all right, like, I need to follow this up with something really good. So maybe there's like another layer of pressure there a little bit. Like I wasn't quite free yet.

I was more like, all right, like let's keep going. It definitely motivated me, you know. I think I put out like 10 music videos for that album, which is like a 14 song album. Crazy. Maybe 12 or something. I don't know. There was a lot of videos. I cannot imagine doing that now.

It's fun. Yeah, it was really fun. You know, I think that kind of effort in that time period in your life, looking back on it, that's incredible. Yeah. You follow that up and you end up working

with Tyler the Creator, which is just so fucking cool. Oh, my God. Tell me a story about Tyler the Creator. Yeah, so I was driving home. I think I just shot a video and I was driving home from set and he DMed me

I was just like, dude, this song, Parties Over, is crazy. Which is a song on that album and I was freaking out. I was such a big fan of Tyler at the time. Like, I literally, um, you know,

I was a huge fan of Wolf. Um, cherry bomb. Uh, I just think, like, his musicality. I really admired his chord choices, I thought was really cool. I know that was, It was a, you know, it's a big thing for him. So to hear him connect with the music, I just felt so excited.

Yeah. And then later on, a few months later, he hit me up and was like, him working on this Grinch thing. I think that your vocals would be really cool in some of these songs. And I was like, can you come to the studio? I literally was like, I'll be there right now. So I got up and went to the studio. We had so much fun making the songs and Santigold's on one of the songs.

And that was insane to work with her. too. Yeah. I got a five-year-old. I'm familiar. It's crazy. It's crazy, yeah. No, I'm really grateful for that.

That's another moment of, oh, I'm doing something that's connecting. I'm doing something that, you know, an artist that I admire connects with. It propels you, you know? So you then releasing the album in January of 2020. Yeah. That's bad timing. I wouldn't have none. But, you know, at the same time, I have to say, like, when I put out that record,

I was in a really weird place in my life. And I was supposed to tour that record around that time. And I'm really glad that I didn't, honestly. Because I think that I would have, I think I needed to not. Why? You know how touring, I mean, have you toured before? Yeah. Like touring, it's like either the best thing mentally.

But it's complex. It's like it can be all things. It's like some days you wake up and you're like, I don't know how I can play a show today. And like how I can show up and give the energy I need to give for people and feel confident in it and feel like I'm not only giving but receiving. you know and I don't think at that time I would have been able to receive or give the energy that I needed just just mentally then why I mean you've already been touring at this point you've done a

barely a little bit but you know it's just without going too deep into it I just I was I was maybe burnt out a little bit from 2020 oh yeah we've given it some time what was the name of your first song? I don't do that for you. We'll see. I'm not giving up. It's going to be right when we shut this off, but I'm still going to ask. It'll be like 10 years from now.

You're going to be stopped texting me. Calico came out. Calico. Sorry. It was like earlier when I was saying, like, you know, when you're trying to tell people like, well, my last name's actually pronounced Beatty. I was. I was on it, though.

I know it was. I have dyslexia, everything. No judgment. No, no, no, it's fine, it's fine. Oh, we're good. Bruce off the piece is like, it's like, I love that song. Thank you.

I love that song. So before I get in album, I just want to know, like, what's the story behind that song? Tell me about how you wrote that song. Oh, I wrote that song in Malibu. It was like summer of 2021. And Ethan and I had been working together now for like about like five months.

Ethan is Ethan Gruska. Ethan Gruska, yeah. So we started working together February or March of 2021. The first song we wrote together was multiple endings, which is on the album, Calico. And we both, you know, we knew that our musical partnership together was exciting for both of us.

He was the exact person I needed to work with at. time and I think that we just like you know it's kind of a meant-to-be situation because his music is his choices are very pure and I wanted to make I knew that the next record I was going to make I wanted to be super opposite of what I just made because dreaming of David is highly affected vocal modulated vocal pitched almost electronic leaning sometimes dance record the next thing I made, I was like, I know I want it to be super bare bones, raw, the vocal to be right in the ear, whispered almost, and clicked with us right away. So we did some sessions in Malibu that summer, bruises off the peach, is one of the songs

I wrote. And we'd do this thing where he would start these musical ideas and then he would leave, because I, especially at the time, like, I needed kind of that privacy. Like I would get really shy about songwriting actively in front of somebody because I would be like maybe overthinking it or whatever. So then I had spent time with just me and the engineer. And I would sit with the mic and I sang on that mic for hours, melodies after melodies, after melodies.

And my voice was like pretty raw at some point. Sometimes my voice gets really raw. It's like when it sounds the best. So then the first melody I had for it was the chorus melody. And I was like, ooh. But the first melody I latched on to. And the lyrics started coming really quick because the minute I'm like, that's it. Things really start to fall into place for me because there's like that inner confidence of like, all right, there's something here.

And now the words almost could come easy because I believe in it. it. Like the minute I believe in it, then everything else kind of falls in place. So I wrote the song once I got there kind of quickly, and I'd finished, I stacked the vocals. I did all the vocals that night, adlobs and everything. And then Ethan came in the next day, and I was like, I did this thing. Like, I hope you like it. Whatever, I played it for him. He's freaking out. Like, oh my God, this is so good. And I was like, yes. It just felt really good to like get that kind of immediate excitement over the song. And I didn't touch the vocals again after that.

You know, the vocals that you hear on that song are the vocals I've recorded that night of writing it. So it feels super fresh in the moment of a capture. You know what I mean? One of the things that I love about that album, and I was talking about it to Joe and Jen before you walked in, I was like, what I love about what you do is you actually, sing that one of one of my favorite writers says to me,

he's like, yeah, if people did, you know, I will always love you now, I'd be like, and I, I will always love you. Like, that's how people would sing that. Isn't it terrible? You're just funny. But it's real. It's like, that's how people sing now.

And it's like, and it's distracting and it's not fun. And after COVID, during COVID, it became really, cool to sing everything like this and in the mic and everything's so quiet and even if you were singing it's still this quiet everything's bedroom this and the hip-hop world's all zanxed out everyone's just it just was all so not for like singing and there's like and then there's like albums like this that come out where you're like ah you're like allowed to sing and i really appreciated that because it was like a choice that it's obviously natural.

But I think a lot of people fight against that because maybe it's not the in thing to do or it's not what radio has. I think that, yeah, that comes from a place of people not maybe finding their actual voice in their singing. Like I think, honestly, when you listen back to even my first album, like, I sing some ways that I'm like, why am I singing like that? I mean, why am I saying the word like that? So I was still shedding this idea of, like,

how I should sound on the record versus just singing, like, sing like Ryan, you know? And so Calico felt like the first time where I really was just doing that through the whole record. So, yeah, I think I really found my actual voice with that album. Cowboy Carter comes out in between that and where we're at now. what's the story about working on that album? I mean, obviously, you know, working on the album of the year

is an amazing feat, you know? What's it like to be a part of an album that wins the album of the year? Still blows my mind. Like, I have to constantly remind myself that it's real, you know? I was working on that around the same time I was working on Calico. So I was kind of going in for sessions for me And then I would go in for sessions for her I think my favorite thing about that whole process was

I felt like Not just like How do I put this? Not just a songwriter for the project I didn't I felt really connected to it I felt really respected I felt involved That's cool

And that surprised me You know Because I felt like there was a lot of trust put in me. But what made me feel really happy at the end of the day was like I was not only being trusted, but I was also like really coming through. You know, I was really proud of the work I did for it. And I think it just all comes down to allowing yourself to be intentional in all things, you know. So I treated it very intentionally. I treated it really sacred. I didn't tell people I was working on it.

Was that hard? Is it hard to work on a Beyonce album and know she's cutting songs, especially when you have, you know, Beyonce Miley songs and whatnot? No, it wasn't hard because I just trusted that it was going to work how it was supposed to work. The worst thing you can do is be like, I'm working on this big thing and, you know,

tell everybody about it. And then if it doesn't happen, it feels like kind of like a letdown. Like I have friends that, you know, they'll laugh because things like that will come out. And there's like, I don't know how you do it or how you can keep this so close to the chest. And then it's like, we'll see it one day on Instagram and, you know, you're part of something. And like, no one knew. But I take, I just take things seriously. I don't know.

Like, you worked on what protector? Worked on protector. Two hands to heaven. Bodyguard. and just for fun. So crazy, four songs were wild an accomplishment on an album that went to album of the year. It seems like since that going into Sweet Fortune,

that there's more of a, maybe more of a country influence. Is that coincidence? I think that at the time, the sort of songs I was listening to while working on that record, definitely like trailed into when I started making this record sweet fortune Who were some of the artists you were listening to?

I would listen to Lucinda Williams. Yeah, sick. I was listening to Blood on the Tracks. Yeah, Bob Dylan. I always, I feel like it's so redemptedly. You know, when I asked about the reading, my assumption is that there's, because it's, It's Lucinda and Bob Dylan, these are lyrics that are so vivid and raw and crunchy. I read a lot of lyrics.

I take that seriously. Like I... It's poetry. I mean, it's not, it's serious literature. Yeah. I have to say this, I also did read Lucinda's memoir. So that was really good. That was a crazy story too.

Yeah. Sweet fortune the song is excellent. Thank you. That is compositionally just a flawless song to me. Thank you so much. And the chord changes are interesting, the fact that there are some melodic choices in it that are unexpected and something that feels very timeless.

Tell me about constructing that song. That does not seem like a song that you can just record in a night. Maybe it is. I don't know. How do you write that song? Yeah. I was in the studio with Claire, and I kept referencing,

um, there's this, there's a song that I kept referencing while making this record, Rainbow Connection. Oh, yeah, of course.

Yeah. Who doesn't? But, um, there's a purity in that song. I think it's a perfect song. Uh, it's like, just the most beautiful,

emotional, song. I wanted to make something that reminded me of that in some ways. So we would always say like, my God, we would say in the studio like when we were writing, Meen Claire, she'd be like

this is Kermit approved. This is Kermit approved. That's so great. Sweet Fortune was definitely Kermit approved. But yeah, I don't know. We were chasing this feeling of timelessness maybe of Exist now

and then and in the future, like, stand the test of time in some ways, which I know is like a big thing to take on. But ultimately, it at least allows us to, like, reach for something, you know? And I love that song, too. Because actually recently I was asked, like, what song would you, when you're, like, 90 years old, will you look back on from this album and, like, you know, stand by the most? And obviously that will probably change many times.

But sweet fortune comes up because it feels like such just, staple song for the time in my life while making this record. I think it's a little more complex than you know, maybe the listener might take from it, for me at least, when I look at the lyrics and what it means to me. But I'm glad you liked that one. No, I like that one. First of all, Rainbow Connections written by Paul Williams, who is the president of ASCAP right now

and has been in the, you know, it's in the Hall of Fame and just a lovely, lovely person. So I'm sure somebody, I'm happy to connect you, but I'm sure somebody listening to this, we'll get this to Paul. He's a wonderful person. And a great advocate for songwriters. You know, what's great about this album,

lyric-wise, is, you know, if you did know who you were and what you're, you know, when you're talking about how you're, private about your personal life, it does not feel that way to listen to this album at all. How is it that somebody who feels private about their personal life writes lyrics like that? Don't you feel like you're kind of, you know? Let me tell you the problem. Yeah.

I feel so comfortable putting it in the music. It's like the one place for me where I can transform my feelings and like be excited about them and not feel scared to say what I really feel, but talking about it for some reason. It's like that, that's when I get, like, shrink a little bit. Why is that? Why is it that songwriters and artists are fine seeing in front of thousands of people? And then, you know, the greeks can be, what, six, eight thousand people or something like that?

You're totally fine doing that. And then, and then if, but if you took the instruments that away, would you, would you, would, you recite the lyrics. That would be pretty good, huh? Yeah. I will say this. My, in those moments, what I, when I'm performing,

when the music is out for everybody, I'm thinking less about, at least this is what I'm subscribing to now. I don't always probably believe this, but I'm thinking less about what they think of me in the song versus how they see themselves in the song. And,

ultimately that's what I want you know my my lyrics are really personal and sometimes very specific and especially like in some of my previous records it's like you know could be things that people could find hard to relate to or understand what that means but I think I want people to you know 20 years from now if they love my music and they see themselves in it 20 years from now they can listen to the song and see themselves in a different way. You know? I think that that's what makes music magic in some ways. Not to be corny.

No, it's, I agree. Four years ago, you were saying how you were, you would ask someone to leave so you could write the lyrics by yourself. And now you're writing with some writers, including our friend Amy Allen and whatnot. What is it like now writing with other writers? Do you enjoy co-writing? Yeah.

That was a hard thing for me to embrace, but I also knew that I wanted to try it because I wanted to attempt to make the studio a place of joy and not like gripping so tight onto having to squeeze the juice out of something to make a beautiful song, you know? And I wanted to shatter my own idea of what it means to write the songs that I need to write and want to write. So Ethan had worked with Amy a bunch, and he had mentioned along, you know, I think a couple years ago, like, oh, we should all get in a room together and make something. And I was like super down. I think she's incredible. And with Claire, she's been a friend of mine for a long time and we'd never made anything together. So that was something I wanted to try because I also really trust her taste. I think she's like just an incredible artist. And yeah, that allowed me to approach the music from a place of, joy take my own sort of like you know that voice in my head that's like you have to make something now and it has to be the best thing ever having someone there just be in the room and support the melodies the lyric idea and just be like yes do that you know that was important for me at that time. It's also just

it can just be fun like you don't have to take it so seriously. Yeah. There are some sessions where I think it gets really serious but I think the process of co-writing that I enjoy is when you're showing up you're like, it's just a day.

Like you'll go home, you'll eat dinner and tomorrow you can be like, I don't like that song and that's okay. You can just enjoy the day and then maybe a good song comes out of it. But I think when your expectations are like, you know, this is the heaviness, this part of writing an album goes away very quickly when you're like,

oh, well, I'll just write a song today and then, you know, I'll get back to this tomorrow. And then out of this relaxingness, you know, often good songs happen, you know, takes you out of yourself a little bit. Totally. Our Patreon question from our friends in Patreon, we have our friend Maggie says, if we found your voice memos of your songs before they were finished, what part of your writing process would surprise us the most? Probably how much my voice cracks in those voice memos.

Really? No, no. No, it's funny to listen to some of the voice memos. And when you know that thing, when you're singing the melody, you're trying to find maybe the words for what you're trying to express. And there's almost like that middle language that happens where you're like not saying, words, but you're mumbling things. And there's that, like,

I don't know, sometimes you're like, what the fuck was that? Like, do you have, do you have voice memos from, from Sweet Fortune? I have plenty of voice memos. Can you play one? No.

Oh, don't cry. Here's a question. What was the name of the first song you ever read? Hmm. So not there. Okay. Well, thanks for doing this podcast. Thank you for having me.

You know, this is like, it's fun because we are able to sit down with all kinds of people wherever they are in their journey. But I just know where your journey is heading as far as it's just growing because you are being so authentic. and it's Kristen, my friend from Billboard had a really nice post about your album was like, I don't think there's a song that you skip on this album about

she doesn't do like reviews or anything like that. I just remember seeing it and even just recently it's like the community is embracing this album and you as an artist in such a positive way because you are being really authentic. And right now, authenticity is it's currency in our business it's so hard to find that and it's the hardest thing to do but it's the most rewarding thing for everybody yeah because if somebody's authentic with me uh it allows me

to be authentic and especially in a life where you know things are so complicated you know like we all want to do our best we all want to show up like the best version of ourselves but something i'm learning is even coming here today like doing this is scary for me but i'm trying to do the scary things because right now like talking about this and and feeling vulnerable and authentic with you like it heals something in me that and it tells me that um like i said earlier with you it's like all parts of me can exist here right now and uh that's hopefully that that can be felt to the people watching or listening and hopefully they can feel like they can do that for themselves too, you know?

Yeah, it's also, you know, it makes you really likable. Thanks. You're pretty likable, too, I have to say. Oh, thanks. Yeah, it seemed pretty authentic. Yeah, but I've got, I got, that's a different thing. You're not afraid to ask me, like, ten times the first song I ever wrote, so, I mean, there's some bravery going on.

Oh, we're not done yet. We're doing with the interview, but it's going to happen. It's going to be random posts on your Instagram as be, like, some weird things. and be like, stop, man. But someday you'll respond on. I don't know. But no, man, you're looking. I think that, I think being, being vulnerable

and being willing to talk about this stuff is what it gives license to not just people who aspire, but I think everybody's aspiring. I'm aspiring to write great songs today. You know, I, most, anybody I know who's in a studio or who's on tour right now, aspires to perform, they aspire to play, and they aspire to be authentic too.

And it's hard when you've got people who, like, the powers that be needing that thing faster, needing that song sounding like this, it's hard to have the chutzpah to go and say, you know, I'm going to be, I'm going to be authentic. And you do that well. And thank you. Thank you.

Thank you.