And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 266: Tinashe’s Guide to Making It on Your Own Terms

Episode Date: September 29, 2026

Today’s guest is a singer, songwriter, producer and dancer who has spent her career trusting her own instincts—and building a world around them.From “2 On” to “Nasty” and “No Broke Boys,” Tinashe has kept releasing music through major-label deals, independent projects and viral breakthroughs.She’s collaborated with artists including Calvin Harris, Charli xcx and Kaytranada, and joins us to talk about the journey behind it all.And The Writer Is... Tinashe!Hit subscribe and turn on notifications. Every week, we go deep with the most interesting creatives in music.Follow us on socials: @andthewriterisA special thank you to our sponsors for making these conversations possible.Splice, the best sample library on the market, period.and our lead sponsor, our Patreon page!We're still giving away free Universal Audio Recording Gear in our next zoom hang.Join us on Patreon: patreon.com/andthewriterisCHAPTERS0:00 Intro0:46 Tinashe and Ross reconnect—back to The Stunners3:48 “Deep in the Night”—the song she wrote at five5:08 Tinashe’s French fry rankings6:12 Child acting, Whoopi Goldberg, and moving to LA9:11 Life in a girl group without creative control11:22 Buying a microphone and building a bedroom studio14:10 Getting signed—and expecting it to be easy18:40 Join the ATWI Patreon19:32 Splice: Sounds and Variations20:39 Early Travis Scott sessions and being taken seriously in the studio23:29 Recording 200 songs—and trusting the big producer’s opinion26:33 Trusting your gut and knowing when to leave a session30:43 “2 On” takes off. What happens after the first hit?36:03 Writing “2 On” in a garage with friends37:37 Does having a hit teach you how to make one?39:20 Leaving her label and rebuilding trust in her own ideas43:29 What releasing music independently actually takes46:10 Filming her own videos and building her visual world48:14 How dancing shapes the way she writes songs50:08 Working with a label again—and finding Ricky Reed52:11 Getting the call from Calvin Harris53:52 Why genre doesn’t define her music55:19 “Nasty” takes off after she stops needing another hit57:04 Why she won’t write for a TikTok trend58:43 Charli xcx and finding freedom after early hits1:00:41 The unexpected remix journey of “No Broke Boys”1:03:31 Taking the Grammy off her lock screen after seven years1:05:14 Making POPSTAR—and giving herself time to play1:05:55 Which POPSTAR song fits every mood?1:08:19 Claiming the pop star she’s always been1:13:32 “Just don’t stop”—keep putting your music out1:14:42 Her advice to young women in music: intuitionCreditsHosted by Ross GolanProduced by Joe London and Jad Saad Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to and the writer is. I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's pop star has ground through, grind it through, trekked through. Pretty much every obstacle the music industry can throw at an artist. She's been signed, independent, underestimated, rediscovered, and throughout all of it remained herself. A talented songwriter, performer, and dancer, This artist has never been interested in what the industry says she's supposed to be

because she already knows who she is. And the writer is my friend Tanashi. Yay. Wow, thank you for that. Beautiful intro. I just looked up when I first worked with the stunners. Wow. And we must have met around the end of 2008.

Yeah, I was going to say over Yeah, over 15 years. Near 20 years. Yeah, that's insane. That's insane. Like, I don't know if people know enough of your story of like you. Yeah. It's a lot of lore.

I guess we should explain who the stunners are. Okay, yeah. Who are the stunners? I was in a girl group when I was, I joined this girl group when I was 14 years old. And Ross was one of the writers that we worked with, collaborated with. on some of our songs, which was amazing. How did you meet? So Colleen, vitamin C, who did like, you know.

She put us all together. She was the mastermind behind it. How did this happen? I auditioned for the group. It was classic Hollywood, like, we're going to throw an audition. But I knew someone, I knew, I was in a musical at the time. What musical were you? It was called 13.

It was at the... Why is everybody in 13? We were just talking about it. I was trying to Ryan Beatty about it. Because that's, like, where he first started. It's so funny. How do you know that Jason and Robert Brown? I mean, it's a small world.

It's a small industry. You know, when you've been in a long time, a lot of these things. But like Ariana Grande starts in 13 and Ryan Bady's in 13. What about you? And where was there? Where did you do? It was at the Mark Taper Forum. So it was like the original cast that they were like workshopping the script and everything.

We did the, yeah, it was really fun. I was 13 years old when I was in that musical. That's so crazy. Anyways, I met a girl in that musical who played Kendra in 13, and she was like, oh, I'm going to be in this girl group. Like, we're looking for a black girl. You should audition. And I was kind of like, I always wanted to be a solo music artist. I don't know if I want to be in a group.

But I also had zero music industry experience. Absolutely none. So I was like, I mean, good opportunity. Let's see what happened. Audition for the group. And then before you know it, we were working in studios and working with songwriters and going on tour and making music videos. And it was like a crash course in the music industry really, really young.

And it was really fun. Wow. So you were, I mean, 13 years old, you're already working professionally. Yeah. That's wild. Yeah. It's been a lifetime thing for me. So it's never been like one particular moment when people are like, what was the moment?

When you hear of somebody now who's 13 is pursuing art, what do you say to them? I honestly, I just try to like get. to know from a core level, like, is this really what you're passionate about? Because me at 13, I was, I was very, very passionate about it. And I think you can tell when it's coming from a genuine place in that kid. And then I'd be like, you know what? Keep going. Like, you're on the right path, honestly. If you're already doing it at 13, you have an advantage. So keep going. What age could you first start singing? Five, four. As soon as I could talk, I started singing. I wrote my first song. I remember when I was five.

What's that song? It was called Deep in the Night. How does it go? Deep in the night all alone on barren ground. Someone comes in looking around. It's kind of spooky. Spooky, oaky. But that's like your complicated melody and you use the word barren. I know.

I don't know what that came from. I was reading Little House on the Prairie back then. Like, I was on some weird shit. I was a nerd. You should sample that are like, you know, interpolators. I put a little sample of it. I want to say on one of my projects, I want to say maybe a queer, maybe my debut album. I'd have to fact-check that.

Hey, guys, real quick, over 90% of you are not subscribers to this channel. And following the channel allows us to keep bringing you incredible guests each week. And growing the channel to offer more of your favorite writers and producers and industry folk, especially artists. It gives us a platform to tell their. stories to you. If you can hit that subscribe button. Thank you. Now, back to your episode. You really like French fries. I love fries. So you ate food before you did music. I did. A few. Are you a, is it, is it crinkle fries or is it, is it steak fries? Oh, who likes steak fries best? That's a hot taste. You know what? You know why?

Why? You like them best? That's your personal choice? No, but I think my wife likes them best. And this is why there's the area of a steak fry that you can use to dip more ranch. True, but you could argue that for a waffle fry. I'm a waft fries. By the way, to my wife's credit, she probably likes those two. Yeah, I mean, I like them all, so I'm with her on that. Like, I won't turn down a steak fry. But I definitely prefer a little bit crisp. I feel like it was just important to mention the fries being that you're famously a fry connoisseur. Is that a weird thing to have as a label?

No, I love it. It's like well-earned. Because then I know when I go places that there will be fries waiting sometimes. Okay, so you eat some fries, you then start writing songs in the house and singing. And then who in the house is like, whoa, this is legit. Like we should start sending you to... My dad was like an assistant. aspiring theater actor.

And so that was kind of like the bridge. Oh. So he got me an agent. So really young. You were living in L.A. already at this point? No. When I was five, I lived in Chicago, outside of Chicago. Where?

It was in a city called DeKalb. Oh, nice. I'm from Chicago. I'm from outside of Chicago. Yeah. It certainly didn't feel like where you go if you actually wanted to, like, really pursue acting. Which is why. How quick did you realize?

I booked a job when I was about seven. What was that job? It was a movie called Call Me Claws. I played young Whoopi Goldberg. No way. Did you meet Whoopi? Oh, yeah. But you know what's crazy.

Did you meet Santa Claus? I met Santa. I met Santa. Sick. Yeah. So you met Whoopi? Yeah, I played her younger, which is so funny. That's incredible.

Do you still get residuals for that? Yeah, because sometimes they show it on TV during Christmas time. I'm sure they do. It was great. It was like on Lifetime. What was the last time you saw it? A while ago. You don't watch it every Christmas?

Oh, no. That's not a runner back. If I'm going to watch one of my Christmas movies, I'm watching The Polar Express. Ooh. I want more of a classic. Yeah, yeah, yeah, fair. Call me a gloss. But yeah, so we shot it in L.A.

flew out here. And then I was like, oh, I'm going to have to make that move. So my parents moved to the whole family. I've been here ever since. But were you going to do, I mean, musical theater? this is the wrong city for that. So how did you get into, how did you get into, you know, if you have an agent, if you have an agent in TV or film, it's not the same person who's necessarily helping you out and everything. I have no idea how I got into 13.

I'm assuming I just auditioned like I auditioned for. Was Ariana in that version of it? She was in the New York cast. She was in the next version. The next version of the next version of it. Did you ever think of going to New York to do it? I was offered to go to New York to do it. And why didn't you do it?

Because I was in the stunners at the time. Oh, so now we're following this. I was in this girl group. I had just joined this girl group fresh out. And honestly, I was loving it. I got to live out my like pop star fantasy. I didn't want to, I didn't want to go to New York. It was off broad.

I was like, it's off Broadway. Like, I don't want to do that. I want to stay here on a focus. And so I did. I made the choice to stay. We could work with the stunners. That's where we met. I was thinking about the song you wrote, honestly, for the stunners this morning.

Do you know it? Because I don't know. It was like watching the rainfall of. Oh, yeah. Remember that? It was like a song about like change. It was like very inspiring. Hell yeah.

It was a good one. Wow, that just made me happy. There's this world of the non-famous girl groups that people, I'm boy bands that tour around and they play malls and they play all the things. and parking lots and, you know, players' boutiques and whatever versions of it. Yeah. For somebody who doesn't, you know,

most people know cat's eye and black pink. Of course. But the 40 groups that are below that, that all have a shot, what is the life of somebody who's in a girl group? It's a lot of, going to rehearsals, learning choreography, it's going into the studio, record. It's all the things.

It's like you're in making the band. Like, that's what it's like. The only thing that is not fun about it is obviously there's no creative. You can't have any input. That was really kind of rubbing me the wrong way. Eventually, we started being able to write on some of our songs. But at the beginning, we just sang whatever was given to us. Didn't get to name ourselves.

Didn't get to dress ourselves. Things like that. What do you mean? Name yourself? The stunners. Like, we didn't choose that name. Right. So it was very much.

Did you guys as young women have that conversation? Like, we should be called something different or we should be something different? I don't even think, I don't even think it crossed our mind that we, like, had the option, I think. I think it was very much to me. I was just happy to be there, honestly. Yeah. And I was so, yeah, I was 14. And it was like the girls in the group were a range of like 14 to 17, 18.

So it wasn't like we were. Had a lot of experience. Was that too young to be the leader of a group? I think I just was very naive about the, like, I don't know, what that even meant. Again, I was happy to be there. So I was excited to sing more vocals and to stand in the middle and to, like, have those moments. But I think, yeah, looking back on it, it was a lot of responsibility. It was a lot.

But I enjoyed it. I don't know. What's the process of going from that to going solo? For me, I... How long were you in the group? I was in the group for four years, which felt like a really long time when you're a teenager. That's your high school.

Because it was basically, yeah, my whole high school time. And so when I was 18, I was... I had my residual checks from acting as a kid. And I was like, I'm going to buy a microphone. I'm going to make a studio in my bedroom. And I'm going to make my own music for the first time. will, like, record my own music for the first time. So that's what I did.

I built a studio. I taught myself how to use pro tools and logic and started recording my own music, putting it online. Who showed you how it works? A lot of just, like, observing, obviously, like, being in studios with the stunners gave me, like, an observation of how music's recorded stacks, just the process, how they would cut things up, what Pro Tools looked like, watching them edit it.

And then, honestly, it was, had this boyfriend when I was really young, who was in this group called The New Boys. And he had made their first hit. It was called You're a Jerk on his computer at his house. So he was very much like DIY everything. He was like, I make all my stuff in my bedroom. And I was like, well, if he can make songs in his bedroom, I can't tell you. certainly make songs in my bedroom. So I think he kind of opened my mind to the possibility that I could learn on my own via like YouTube tutorials. So that was really, so that was really kind of how I learned YouTube tutorials, watching them, trying it. And I figured it out. At first it wasn't great, obviously, but did you feel like you missed out on a normal high school because you spent it

doing that or does that not? I mean, I certainly did, but I don't feel like I, like, darn, I wish I had gone to a normal high school. I don't feel that way. Going on the solo thing and making music by yourself, were those songs immediately at the level that you felt like they should be? I mean, from like a mix perspective, no, but from a songwriting perspective, yes, I think some of my first solo songs were. where still to this day, some of my personal favorites that I've ever written. I love, like, my first project that I made, and I made in case we die probably within a year of starting to make my own songs in my bedroom. How did you navigate the label world?

You know, you're assigned to, you know, Yeah. Were the stunters signed to RCA? No, the stunters were signed to Columbia? So when you left that and then you get signed to RCA, were there expectations? Yeah, from me or from... I don't know.

From both. I mean, I don't think the world had expectations of me. I was completely fresh, which is the benefit of being a brand-new artist. There's no pressure. But I think I certainly had expectations naively that, like, it would be, I got signed really fast. So it seemed like, oh, this is going to be easy. Like, I made a song, boom, I got signed.

I made a, I put out my first single, boom, it became really popular. You know, it seemed like the momentum was just there, which kind of, again, really reflected how, like, my journey was as a kid. Like, I just followed this momentum. Like, it seemed very easy. And I think, like, the reality check came, like, a bit later when I was like, oh, the music industry is not always going to be just this easy thing that just continues to happen for me.

Like, it's, I'm going to have to, you know, experience some highs and lows, you know. The strange thing is, had it been easy, there would be no discography to support that. When it does happen easy for somebody who's young, who doesn't have seven studio albums out before, like fast forward to now if it works. You know, if it's, you know,

anytime somebody gets into their Tanashi mode, there's a day's worth of music straight streaming. Yeah. That has value for both the fan and for you. Yeah. You want the slow build. You just have to weather the storm. Absolutely.

Because I say this all the time that I'm very thankful for that exact reason because I think it's so much more difficult and so much harder to be prepared for the moment when you just don't have the experience. And there's just no substitute for experience. Like the more you create, the more, the better you get at it, the more comfortable you are with, you know, not making good songs, making good songs, having great air. You know, like you just get more, you just get better, you know.

When you release the first album, you know, I guess mixtape was probably the first thing. that came out on RCA. What was the like to now have to tour solo, having toured with other women and having gone through, you know, a group scenario to, oh, I'm... Yeah, I mean, it was a lot different. I think what I was really enjoying at the time was the ability to create my own world,

create my own show, build my own world, have my own dancers and lights and all the things. and yeah, have a live band. We didn't have a live band before, so that was my first experience with that. So, yeah, the first show I played was like South by Southwest, I think. And the ceiling was like right here, and it was sweaty. Like the literal ceiling.

Yeah, no, like the actual ceiling in the venue was like right here. And, yeah, it was a tiny stage, so it was kind of nice that it was just me because it was a little stage, you know? Yeah. Just five of you on that. It would be like impossible. Everybody keep their elbows in. No, literally.

You know, it's pretty quick that I feel like the industry was really friendly. Like the first, you know, when you get to Blackwater and stuff, it's like these are pretty big names that are collaborating with you. You know, it's the biggest producers in the world when you have Boy Wanda and stuff like that working on your album. Did you feel like at that point? that it was still fluid and that it was easy? Yeah, because, like, kind of like you mentioned, like I had just started making music and I kind of met these people

and built these relationships pretty quickly, pretty easily. Yeah, I don't know how to describe it. It was just like, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. I signed with RCA. They put me in the studio with the first guys I was in with, were, like, Drake's camp, guys. It was into the thick of it. Hey guys, have you ever wanted to get further in the world of And The Writer is?

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And The Writer is. What did you learn from working? I mean, Travis Scott's feature. Yeah. Yeah. But that was very early career of Travis Scott as well. You know, he was still. Not the Travis Scott that we know of.

Of course not. Yeah. It's weird how that happens too. It's like certain things look, you know, the show 13 looks a lot different when from the perspective of 20. 26 than it does in 2007 or eight or whatever it is. Hindsight. But being working with the Drake guys, like he's at that point, the hottest, newest guy at that point.

What's it like entering those rooms as a young female? It was intimidating. I'm not going to lie. Because before then, I'd been making all my music on my own in my room without having to you know, work with anyone else. And so I'm walking into these rooms and oftentimes I actually am fully alone. Like I didn't have an entourage. I didn't. My managers lived in New York. So they oftentimes were not with me in the studio. I didn't bring friends. So it would just be like me and these guys. And there's also this like, you know, I'm young and I'm like 20. And then there was a lot

of like, you know, flirtiness and weirdness. And I felt like I always had to like kind of get over these humps with people and to get them to like take me seriously. And there was also a lot of times where I felt like people just kind of didn't really listen to my opinion because that was kind of like the label made set this up. She's the cute young girl in the studio. Like she doesn't know. And so that was kind of a big learning curve for me because before then, like I said, I'd never considered anyone's opinion. Now, I want to, I'm excited to work with these people. I want to, you know, be collaborative.

And there was a long period of time where I was a bit more, I guess, just like less comfortable being like, no, this is what I want to do 100%. But as somebody who can produce, I mean, at that point, you're producing at home. Yeah. Yeah. You know. I felt like once I signed with a label, that kind of, I don't know, wasn't like a factor in my writing session. for some reason. I don't know why.

Is that because of you or because of the label? I don't know. Maybe a little bit of both. I do think I was just very inexperienced, like I said, with collaboration and with songwriting

with other people. And there was, over the years, I think I just got so much better at being able to have my perspective and say it and be collaborative and not feel.

It kind of felt sometimes like it was all or nothing. Like I'd work with people who obviously would understand where I was coming from, let me take the lead, let me have that kind of creative control, and I'd be, like, really excited. And then there'd be the flip side of that where I'd be recording a song that I was like, I hate this.

I hate this song. So honestly, the process of making my first album, I recorded probably 200 songs. No way. A lot of songs. How many outside songs did you cut at the time? Because you were saying there were a lot of songs that you had to record. And then you're like, I hate this. I hate this.

I would say maybe half. I feel like maybe 100 songs were songs that other people had written. And then like 100 songs were songs that I had like written with people or written myself. And now looking back on the album, majority of all the songs were songs I wrote. So I guess I got to the other side eventually. The writing process with that crew tends to be, here's a track, write a song over this music. Yeah. Is that your experience?

I think sometimes it was that, but a lot of times, yeah, a lot of times it was that. I was less involved in the production aspect, I think, in the earlier days than I am now. Could you even select the tracks that you wrote over or were those sort of like right over this? I hate at the time it was bigger than it is now, but people would be like, this track is a hit. This is the one. And you're like, there's nothing on it. This is the one, though. I dare you to release this as is then.

Yeah, no, I would experience a lot of sessions where I'd walk in and they'd be, that's what I kind of mean by all or nothing. I'd be like, this is the only song we can make because I know better, you know? I have, I've done this. Like, this is the hit. And I also felt that there was a lot of, like, blind agreeance from, like, people on, like, my team when I would work with really. big producers or, you know, the big names. There'd be a lot of pressure to be like, oh, we have to, we have to use this one because so-and-so made it.

Yeah, a lot of those guys would charge so much even to get in that it's like you already paid for it. Yeah. I remember one session with someone who I will not name, but like I would sit there for, I think it was like, I want to say I showed up at noon and he didn't arrive until like nine or 10 p.m. So there was like a lot of stuff like that too where I'd just be like sitting around for a long time.

It's a weird. It's a weird truth, man. Like you can't explain what it's like when you're in a room and also, uh, or like you're in a room full of people are all X-D-Xed out and you're like, what is happening? What am I doing in this room? What am I doing? What am I doing? But I also would stay in rooms so much longer than I would nowadays too.

Like I would sit there for, like, like, I would be like, we got to stick this one out, you know, whereas nowadays, if I'm, like, not feeling it if I'm in a room, I'll eat. What's the advice you give to a 22-year-old pop star who's now put in a studio with the biggest producers in the world? I would say that's probably one of my biggest pieces of advice is don't feel the pressure to, like, make a song just because this session is so important or, you know, this time period is like, you have, there's just too much. if it doesn't feel right, if you're not in the mood, whatever is happening, like I think you have to go with that gut instinct because forcing yourself beyond that

is just generally not that productive. Kind of waste your time. So where I talk about this where with some people about how can we create a like an orientation program the way that pro sports has. Okay.

You know, where people who are recently signed to a major publisher or record company could go and learn about, you know, this is etiquette. Yeah. This is the business. Yeah. You just signed this deal. This is what you gave up.

This is what you're getting. This is the, this is etiquette in a session. And this is how you deal with, like, sexual harassment. This is how you deal with, you know, alcoholism and drug addiction. This is like, there should be a weekend like that, just like they do it. pros or it doesn't matter if you're drafted first or a 780th. Like you're still, you know, in this. Totally.

You still have to go to the same program, be like, this is how you survive this. I mean, I think that could be helpful. There's a lot to learn. But again, it's just, I think I learned that by just like over the years experience and working with so many different people. And then you're kind of like, oh, this is how, this is what works for me. Walking out of a studio is really hard. Yeah.

It is. It really is. When it's easier said than done. Yeah. You know, in retrospect, I'm sure that, like, all of us have been in sessions where we should have walked out. Should have left sooner. You know. Yeah.

You're just grinding through it. What's the best way to leave a session that sucks? You know, you got to just, you just got to be real. You got to be like, I mean, not totally real, but you got to be like, you know, I got this thing. I got to do tonight. Sleep. You're just like, I got to go. I don't know.

Anything. Got to go. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's important to know that. Because I do feel that even in rooms with like young songwriters that I'll work with nowadays, that maybe they, I can tell that they feel. And I understand because it's big opportunities every time you write a song to like, write the hit, write the one.

And I think it's not necessarily always conducive to the creative process to like push past that point if it's just not feeling right to me personally. One of the things you've gotten to now, which we'll get to, but because you're so part of the production process, the writing process, you're with the same crew of people, generally speaking, that you can go in every day and take a risk and not every day is about the hit. And at that point in your career, you're in a new day with new people.

And if you're in for one day and you're from their perspective, you're like, all I have is this day to aim for the single, that they say they don't have. Yeah, I get it. I totally understand. With your skill set, have you written a lot with other people for other people? Like, not on purpose, if that makes sense.

Would you? I've considered it, but in a way, would I, yeah. You'd be so good at it. Probably not. I would be really good at it. You're also promoting an album. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, just like, it's, you know, I'm very precious. with my ideas, I think. Yeah. So if I'm writing an idea, I think it's good, I'll be like, well, I don't want, that's my idea, you know. I'm very crushed to my ideas. You're also a producer. Like, you could also just go in and just, like, handle it.

I am, I definitely could. I'm just throwing out there. Okay. So, you know, when Tijuana comes out, uh, with schoolboy Q. Yes. It was really exciting because it was like, oh my God. that's that's the girl

that like I worked with years ago she's like a grown woman who's just killing it and it's everywhere. I know you've talked about the song a lot but it becomes this defining moment in many ways. Yeah.

Was that the moment that you felt like it was still very fluid or was at a moment where you're like oh this isn't what I thought it would be? It was my first single. So again it kind of just felt like my first single was a success. Since then, I've put out so many singles that have not been a success.

So to put out a song that still 10 years later is like one of, you know, it has stood the test of time. I think that was just, it's uncommon that your very, very first song is like that. So yeah, it was still fluid. I was still just riding the waves. I was like, this is fun. This is great. Everything I put out is going to be great.

But that was quickly changed because the second song I put out, was not successful. How did you deal with that? I honestly just went to the next single. Like immediately, I was very at the time impatient, I think. That's the other thing. When I was young, I was like, okay, one song, February. Next song, March.

Next song, April. And I would be very frustrated by the cadence of, like, the system because it felt so much slower than how I wanted to release. And I do think it's become quicker now, but it felt like everything was like pulling teeth to get a record out. And that was really frustrating for me. When you hear Two On Now, how do you feel? You hear the first beat.

I still love it. I still think it's like, I think it's a great song. I think it's melodic. It's got a fun, like, concept. It's catchy. It's cool. There's like not much else that like literally starts. sounds like that song.

And I think that's, I'm proud of it, for sure. When you hear the second and third and fourth single, do you feel the same way? No. No. But then, you know, the special thing about Tuan was it was also a song that, like, I wrote with my friends, like, in a garage in, like, their house. So we kind of have that special energy. And then the second song that I put out was a song that I had kind of changed a little. but it was written for me basically.

So I didn't feel that same connection to it, you know. And I don't even remember what the third single was. Isn't that crazy? Who knows? It's just so crazy because that's the realness. Yeah. You're, you know, there's that thing like fog of war. You know, it's like with all the things going on,

you think you can gain strategy and perspective, but the only way you get perspective is time. Mm, yep. And in the moment, you're like, the rushing through stuff is... But that's what I'm saying. I was just like, next. Okay, that didn't work next. I also didn't even give things time to cook because I was like...

Yeah. I'm burning daylight here, people. I was ready. Would you have changed that? Like, doing it again? No, I don't think so. Mm-mm. I think that was...

I think that's what... I wouldn't say what. Part of the reason why I've been able to have a successful long-term career is because I kept releasing music. tenaciously. Yeah. You got so many good nominations and respect. I feel like I haven't got it.

From the two-on stuff that from that era. There was like all the like, you know, best new artist nomination for BT stuff. I do you know. And there's, they're just different nominations. There's even just winning a BMI award. These things are like really clear. I forgot about that too. You got the stats.

Yeah, yeah, I study. You got the stats right there. I mean, I'm not, you know, I'm just a show. say my first row. I like that. But you, like, it's, you get, you get, you know, those, those are, those are real acknowledgments of a, a newcomer. Even though at that point, like, one of things that this industry fails to do over and over again is conflate somebody who's young with somebody with experience. And somebody who is, at this point, what, 22, 21?

21. You'd been working professionally already for eight years. Yeah. And most people who are 21 haven't started yet. Yeah. So somebody might be like, oh, she's young. I'm saying, no, no, she's been performing in front of humans now for eight years. Yeah.

Eight years of experience is a ton of experience. Yeah. And I think, you know, at that point, if it takes 10 years to make an overnight success, you're scratching on that door. Oh, yeah, for sure. So it's kind of crazy. Yeah. I think it may have been your first commercial single. Right.

Well, you've been releasing a lot of music. No, you're right. Absolutely. And I was ready in that regard, but, you know, I wasn't, I didn't know the ride I would be on. Tell me about the garage that you wrote, Too Onan. Yeah. It was right over here in, you know, out here in L.A. It was with my friend Red Wine and Bobby Brackens.

And there was like, I remember the studio. They, like, had like, you know one of those cloud lights? It had a cloud light. It was very vibe and like purple neon. Yeah, just another day writing songs with my friends. That's funny. Did you come in with the concept? Mm-mm.

No. It was just like we would sit in the room and, I mean, I'm not going to lie. I think like the two-on wording, I bet you anything that that was Bobby Bracken's idea. He was like, he's from the Bay Area and he had all. the lingo. What's with you writing with people from the Bay Area? I don't know. It's a ral-y connection.

I don't know. I love making like California music. So maybe that's part of it. What's California music? It's just got like a swag to it and like a BPM. It's like 94 to like 99. It's a little faster. You think?

I think compared to like most things that are R&B hip-hop, I feel like land in that sort of 70 to 90. Yeah. It's got a bounce to it It's got a bounce California music has a bounce Which I like When you go after that

And you start recording You're so prolific You're so much music You've done so much music Yeah I have Did you think Having had a hit That you knew what a hit was?

No Do you know what a hit is now? No No. Because I've had so many songs that I'm like, this should be a hit and like hasn't. So I think a hit, I think there's a formula that allows a song to become a hit. And then I think past that it's like luck, timing. What's the formula of a hit?

I think generally it's like something catchy. It's like a melody that you can really, an earworm. that gets in your head or of saying a phrase that really like gets in people's hearts or minds. And yeah, you know, it just sticks with you, something that's sticky. What's a song that wasn't a hit that should have been? Like, I don't know, maybe my song needs. I really like that song. That was close.

Why is that a hit? Melodic, fun, playful. catchy, sticky, kind of fun video. What do you think made, you know, I've seen some of your other interviews where you've talked about between Tuan and Nassi. There's so much that happens.

So much. And navigating the music industry is something that you kind of don't want to wish on your own worst enemy. You know what I mean? It's the Wild Wild West, for sure. It's really complicated.

It's very complicated. Tell me about what it's like to be on a major and then starting to release music that isn't reacting. It's a weird feeling because you start to, at least for me, I started to question whether it was because of me or because of them or what. You just start thinking about like who's to blame. Like the blame needs to be placed somewhere. And I think that pressure, you also feel that pressure from like the surrounding people team crew that like there must be blame. We must figure it out. We have to, you know, because no one wants to like, they don't want to waste their money.

So there's always a constant like trying to renavigate or, you know, what is it? Let's change this. Let's change that. Let's tweak this. So yeah, I think you're constantly looking for like that validation. And I think it became destructive for me by the end of my relationship with my first major label because I was unclear at that point that like my instincts were the right instincts. I had like lost that or I felt that it was really slipping away. And I and I knew that that would have been probably like the worst.

That was not an option for me. So I was like I need to get out of this situation before I reach a point where I. don't believe I have any good ideas, you know, because I felt that the ideas that I had were not respected. I felt that the songs that I wrote were not taken as seriously as the songs that were written for me or presented to me or written by these people. And that really, you know, I started to take that into consideration like, well, maybe they're right. Maybe I can't write great songs. And then I became a lot less confident in my songwriting of production abilities. And then I deferred to other people. And then I was like, this is a mess. Then I had to go

independent and reel that back on in. How did you mentally deal with that? Were you going to therapy? No, not at the time. Like, how did you deal? How do, how does a young human at all deal with? I should have gone to therapy probably. Yeah, it was tough. It was really tough. Who's advising you, hey, maybe we should try to get out of this, or was it not up to you? I'm not 100% sure. I just remember feeling like I, I think it was probably like a group decision between me, my management, my family, people around me that cared about me, you know, that I was probably also expressing that I was just unhappy with the situation.

So it was like, what are we going to do? How are we going to make this work? And then I, you know, got my lawyer, Dina LaPolt, and she. She's firecracker. We love Dina. She's a firecracker. So she was like, you know, I'm like, I'm going to get you out of that situation. We'll figure it out.

The one and only. Yeah, we love our Dina Lippold. You know, the just going through this, again, like through the whole process, so intense. And then trying to find yourself in while also being an artist. Were you able to define Tenasha the human from Tenasha the artist during any of that? I think it was, yeah, I think that was probably my most unclear because like you're saying, you're going through like your early 20s and you're also trying to figure out who you are as an adult as a human as a person. And so I think there was a lot of just like trial and error or, you know, I was figuring it out.

I feel like when I came out the other side and when I really kind of discovered myself fully was when I was able to start making music on my own again, for sure. Making music on your own again comes with the whole other list of issues. Like you deal with things like releasing your own music, doing your music videos. Now you have to do all the stuff. Marketing.

How does a human release music? Yeah. I understand the general mechanics of it. But if somebody wants to release music independently, what is the job description of an artist who releases independently? Well, number one, you have to make the music. So you have to record it, teach yourself how to make it sound good. You have to create some type of visual at this point, I think,

that goes on, either represents who you are or, like, has something with it. because we just live in like a very visual society. And then the third thing that I would say is you just need to put it out there. You have to release art. You have to put it on YouTube. You have to put it on whatever it is, SoundCloud. You have all these, you know, there's platforms now where you can, you know, distribute your own music and get it onto Spotify, Apple, whatever.

But you have to have things out there. You have to allow yourself to be discovered. What was your goal? goal. I know I can, I know what your goal was at 14. I can see now with the title of your album

what your goal is now. Yeah. What is your goal when you're releasing music independently? Yeah. I think my initial goal was to just really make it clear and to find for myself and the world who I was, that I wasn't going anywhere, that I was going to continue to release art, that I, yeah, that there was kind of this tenacious energy. I just really wanted, I felt like I had something to prove, really. And that was the goal. And then eventually

being independent for some time, I think then the goal was like, okay, I've, I've proven that I can, you know, do this without the machine. And now it's like, okay, now I can really explore and, like, become even more free and, you know, about who I am and the music I'm making. When we first met, there wasn't social media like there is now. No. You know, there was no Instagram yet. Yeah. Which is crazy.

Yeah. But you adjusted really well with social media. Yeah. You really, you embraced it. Mm-hmm. And your choreography, your aesthetic, your, the art direction that goes along with the aesthetics of what you've put together. Yeah.

Seems to be as important as the music itself. It's very important. I want to say, ah, but close. No, that's fair. Yeah. Were you always your own art director? Yeah, I've always been a visual artist and love to explore that aspect of how I translate my songs.

Like, even when I made those mixtapes in my rooms, I was also filming my own music videos. But, like, I mean, I'd have my dad hold the camera. and I would edit it or, you know, my mom would take, she, like, took the cover photograph of my mixtape art. Like, we just went to her office and I was like, okay, we're going to put it on a projector and we're going to put a spine on my back. We're going to project it, take a picture. So, like, I always had ideas. I've always been, like, extremely creative visually in how I want to express. And that's always been really important to me to be able to, I guess, do that. choreography has evolved a lot in the last, you know, 20 years also.

Yeah. And you're such a good dancer and you're such a good choreographer. But to stay up on that is as complicated as it is to stay up on snare sounds or hi-hat sounds. Tell me about your journey as a dancer throughout all this. Yeah. Yeah, that's so interesting that you mention that because it's very true. I think it's even how people accept movement and people expect movement on stage now is so different than 10 years ago, five years ago. And when I first started learning dance. And I think what has helped me adapt is constantly having an open mind.

Like even from a very young age when I started training in dance, I trained in like every style. So I was doing like tap, ballet, jazz, hip hop. I never made it like, oh, I have to make it like this or I have to do it like this. I've never limited my style of choreography even. Like sometimes I'd be like, okay, let's make something more contemporary and artistic. And then sometimes I'm like, I just want to make something that has like a cool bounce and like a rhythm and you can feel it. And I think having that variety has allowed me to be able to adapt because, yeah, things change constantly, constantly. Does it change how you write the way you dance?

I think, like, yeah, I would say something. Because I think I'm always keeping in mind, or usually the starting place of a song for me is the rhythm. That's usually where I'm like, okay, let's get a beat going. Like, let's get some, like, what's the tempo? What's the BPM? Like, I like to feel that first. And then I think melody really just kind of spills out of me after that. The journey from, like we're saying,

we're now independent and we're going from that to through the beginning of COVID too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was right. For somebody who's a performer who's a real, like you win people over when you're performing.

You sing well, you dance well, you like own stages. That's like your thing. And when you take a stage away, it didn't seem like that really hurt your career. Yeah. It seemed like... Well, I made an album. I just locked in.

I was like, perfect opportunity. I'm going to make an album. I think I made two albums during COVID. In fact, I made an album in 2020 and then an album in 2021. So I was cranking it out. I had a studio downstairs in my house, so I was just making everything at home.

Again, like releasing music, it's still a different expectation. It's more like releasing music and then you just get to keep doing it, right? I mean, it's like generally speaking that seemed like metrics change. You know, the stats start to change because they're pretty consistent.

It seems like your fan base was loyal and stayed through all these albums. So loyal, yeah. There's, you know, you'd have a few features here, there. But for the most part, it was still like you lock in, like you were saying, doing that. When did your expectations start to change? Like, hmm, I wonder what's on the other side of this independent rainbow. And it'd be like, okay, I'm going to go and start. seeking out some other opportunity.

Probably around 2023. And why did you start moving away from the idea of doing independent stuff? Because I just realized, like I said, I'd kind of like proved what I had set out to prove, at least to myself. And felt that I'd really shown myself that my instincts were correct and felt like a newfound sense of confidence in my own like leadership. So I felt like if I got into a situation where, you know, there's more creatives, there's more people involved in terms of like a team, I would be able to delegate better or I'd be able to talk about my ideas better. I'd be much more confident and being like, no, it needs to be like this. It needs to be like that. And so that was the perfect time to, you know, start exploring that. And that's when I met Ricky. So Ricky, obviously, a good friend of ours.

Mm-hmm. You know, Joe and I've known Ricky for forever. Yeah. And you might be one of the few people I've known maybe longer than I've known Ricky. That's so funny, yeah. Because I've known him for also probably 17 years. But what makes Ricky great? I think what I most connected to him,

the way I'm most connected with him is because I feel like he's a true, like artist, artist. Like he understands me at a core level, like understands the instinct of an artist, even if he doesn't agree with my instinct, I think he respects that. And that is really amazing because not everyone gets that. And, yeah.

How did you get, you know, if you're releasing music independently, I guess maybe before that you had the feature with Calvin Harris, right? Yeah. Like, how did these happen for an independent artist? I knew Calvin from the label days when I was signed to a label. That's many years before this at this point. Yeah, I mean, I just kept my connections. You got a phone call from Calvin Harris?

Yeah. Were you like, hey Calvin? What's a phone call from Calvin Harris like? I got a song. He's got to actually. accent. I can't do it. Yeah. That's right. You'd be great.

You're talking about the one with Normani and Offset? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a crazy phone call. Oh, it was pretty great. That was great timing, too. Great timing. Because it really launches like the, oh, you know, but it's different, you know, to,

granted that that album is less like EDM-y than some other stuff, but it's different than the others, you know, than some of the other things. It seems like your voice does really well with EDM and EDM. remixes we'll get to. Yeah. Pretty fun. But is it fun to release music that doesn't sound like the music that... It's like music, it seems like music you really enjoy.

Mm-hmm. That is not the music that you write by yourself. Yeah. I love that, though. I love having the excuse to make all sorts of different things and having the opportunity to dip into different areas. and I don't know. I've just always kind of been that type of person who, like, is inspired by that challenge, I guess.

And, yeah. Do you think you're genre-less? I would like to think so. I think I have, like, genre-leaning, but I definitely... I just kind of don't subscribe to genre. I think it's just, like, an antiquated, like, way of thinking, kind of. I understand we need it to, like, label things, I guess.

But, like, do we? I don't know. I feel like we could label things better. What's the best way to label what you do then? I feel like we could just label them. I don't know. I feel like we could label song by like tempo. Like fast, song, slow songs. We could label songs by even like, I don't know. Now I'm getting like too nerdy.

Like color. Like I feel like songs have certain, you know, feelings. There's like happy songs. There's sad songs. There's like emotional songs. There's, I don't know. I just feel like. like genre is so it doesn't it just doesn't describe so many songs so many songs don't fit into a genre so many songs are in a great area between genre

I feel like it never actually um it doesn't define actual artists very well no it defines it defines genres but if you're going to be a real artist you should be on the fringe yeah absolutely And you should be pushing some things, you know? Agreed. So you go, you sign to Nice Life. And, you know, Nasty's like, it kind of blows up. Yeah. Nassie had a moment. What's it feel like at that point to be back, commercially speaking?

It was really nice to have the validation, I suppose, because I was getting so many messages from people like, I know you could do it. I always believed in you. And that's just like funny. It's like a good feeling, you know? It's like, ah, I had already gotten to the point where I'd transcended the need for that.

You know, I didn't care to, if I ever had another viral moment. I would love it. But I also had got to the point where I'm like, I'm going to release music and continue to make art, irregardless of success. And then to have a song that was, you know, commercially successful, I think.

I was like, wow. Yeah. Sweet. Love that. The visual part of it obviously had a lot to do with it, too. Yeah. Yeah. You know, what was it like shooting the music video for NASA?

It was actually freezing that day. Really? Yeah, because we were out there in Lancaster and it was in the desert, which gets very, very, very cold if it's not hot. But it looks like it was hot. So we were out there with, like, blankets. And then they'd be like, I think it hailed at one. point, like literally like ice was falling from the sky. It was cold.

It obviously does really well and becomes a moment and has, you know, 300 million streams and it's like, it's still gaining. It went crazy on TikTok though, especially. Like, TikTok really ate that one up. Why? Why? I think because it's just so memeable, you know. Do you write for things that are memeable? I do not. No, absolutely not. I would never do that. on purpose. But now that you've had the success of it, are there moments in the studio where you're like, that's memeable?

No, no, no, no. I think that's a dangerous path to go down. It's so dangerous. You can't try to like get your little sound bite. I don't think that's worth it. But I mean, when it happens. How many sessions have you been on where somebody's like?

What's the phrase? It's not the phrase. Just feeling somebody being like, oh my God, I can see the trend. kind of feeling like, wow. No, we've already lost the plot at that point. Yeah. You kind of become, you know, because

Tanashi music is like, is a choice. Yeah. You know, as a company. Yeah. And you and Nice Life do this together. Uh-huh. And having done independent releases, do you think of yourself as a label exec?

In a way, yeah. I definitely do because I am so involved in my own. business that to say otherwise would just not be honest. Have you signed other artists? No, I haven't. Will you? I certainly could someday.

It's not right now one of my, like, my goals. You can just see it with your skill set to be able to write and produce and help somebody. Or just, you know, your instincts are good. And to have the marketing brain behind, the artistic brain behind a record label is super helpful. Yeah. No, I agree. Charlie FCX is cool She's pretty cool

She's the coolest She's very cool And she's had a similar run That you had Yeah I feel Did you guys talk about that? Yeah we did We did

We had a conversation Kind of being like Wow isn't this great I'm so happy for you But even just the idea of You know She had these hits very early on And it was kind of like

She wrote hits for other people Yep But the trial XXX we know now Yeah no I mean she was grinding from time and to see her success is just, you know, you love to see it. But even she asked me to be a part of a remix on her remix album. And in the song she talks about, she says, because we made boom clap and get to want.

So like she references the fact that, you know, we've been doing this. We had these big moments really early on. And, you know, we've had this whole journey to get to where we are now. And I think that's just really beautiful. What did you learn from working with her that you applied to your new album? I think she's just, what I relate to her now is this sense of freedom and this feeling of like being on the other side. Like I think she too is like post caring so much about whatever, this success or how people perceive her. I'm also projecting.

I haven't. This is just my assumption. And like now she's in this place where it's just coming to her naturally. And I feel like that's such a freedom once you're able to get to that place and create without those expectations of those pressures. Because in the middle, it's just like it's not that fun when you're like constantly like, oh, like I just want people to get it. They don't get it, you know. Yeah, it's back to that fluid state that you started with. You know?

Speaking of the fluid state, No Broke Boys is just like the best journey. Yeah. But it goes to the same thing that we're talking about. It's like good things kind of happen once you let go of some of the other things. Totally. The first version of it. Very different than the version that has almost like 900 million streams.

Tell me about the journey of No Broke Boys. Yeah. So I wrote No Broke Boys with Ricky. I wrote in his studio. And I was like, I mean, there's something about this song. It's super catchy. It's got this like very laid back energy, which I love that like contrast there. And it was the last record that we made for the project Quantum Baby.

And so, you know, we had already made, Nasty had already kind of like taken off at the time. And we're like, I feel like there's one song missing. Like we just need to go back in for like one more song. And so we made no broke boys and put it on the album, put the album out. So it's kind of crazy because it kind of felt like one of those situations that, like, it was meant to be created, you know? Yeah. And then I guess this is the story he tells me. Disco lines heard the song and was like talking to a girl or dating a girl.

It was like, you should remix that. Or I don't know if it was his idea. Anyways, she kind of a-and-arted a little bit. How crazy is that? Yeah, she got an a-and-arted a little bit because he said he made a remix initially and it was kind of like dark and a little bit moodyer. And she was like, no, make it more melodic.

Make it more melodic. This random woman somewhere in the world. Yeah, love her, whoever she is. Because she nailed it. And him. He produced it, obviously. But yeah. And then it became the version that went crazy.

Seeing the success of that Yeah Crazy I mean it's crazy crazy It's crazy It's going to be a billion streams And you know A year from now

It's wild Or less Is Does that Change how you write for yourself When you're Oh man Maybe my fans

Or other people Want to hear EDM versions of songs No I don't think you can do that I think that's a mistake I think that's a trap I think that's a trap

And no I don't and subscribe to that. So I'm just like, that was great. That's awesome. I love that. That record is what it is. And then you just, you know, carry on and keep making records.

It's so wild. It won dance song of the year for IHare Radio Music Awards. It did. That was so nice. I got my first, like, trophy. Yeah, it's really interesting because, you know, maybe I'm biased because I, you know, we've known each other for a while. but it feels like you should be one of those perennial Grammy nominated.

Yeah. Feels like you. No, I've never been nominated. Maybe someday. But I also have let go of that. That used, honestly, that was like one of my absolute biggest life goals for years. I had a Grammy on my phone lock screen. And I was like, I'm not going to change this lock screen until I win a Grammy.

I had that thing on my phone's lock screen for like seven years. And I was like, I'm sick of this lock screen. I'm changing it. Like, that's enough. So I eventually, I think, transcended that point where I cared that much. I was like, I had read like the secret or something. I had that on my phone. I'm going to look at this every day.

I'll win a Grammy. Or at least be nominated. But, yeah, still haven't. But when did you take it off your screen? Do you remember? I want to say around. You know what it was? It was really close to the time when.

which is the closest thing that I've got to Grammy recognition. I was on an album that won a Grammy. I wrote a song called Worst in Me on Kajornada's album. And that album won a Grammy. So I got like the certificate. Which is great, which is great, which is great. And I think it was maybe like six months before then. And so I thought that was like kind of poetic because I remember I was like,

I had just kind of let this dream go. And like now I'm getting some recognition. So it seems like, okay, I'm on the right track. You know. You are. And I mean, the new album's excellent. Thank you.

Tell me about recording pop star. Yeah. I mean, it was really fun. I enjoyed myself with this album. I think I was very playful and made that a big priority that all my studio sessions. I was like, let's just try something. Let's make something weird and fun and just play. So I had a good time making it.

And I took my time. I usually make projects pretty quickly, and I made this one over the course of about two years. So I was like, oh, I want to kind of take my time with this one. So you've released three songs so far to the public, but the time this comes out more than that. Okay, yeah. But let's play a game.

Which song the album should we listen to if we're going out with friends? I mean, I'd say melatonin. It's like a club song. It's like a song you want to dance too. Thanks. Great video. Thanks. Yeah, I love that.

That's legit. Thank you. Dina Lapult liked your video. I mean, she's got good taste. What sauce should we listen to if we're on a date? Oh, on a date, it depends on the kind of day. Oh. Maybe like flashbacks.

I like that one. That one's like provocative. What's the song we should listen to if we're walking through New York in the fall? Ooh, okay. Walking through New York in the fall, I'm going to say maybe like 25-8. That one's like, I don't know. It's giving like the weather, like there's a cool breeze in the air. And also it's very New York to me, I feel.

So I'm going to be crazy if you're listening by yourself and you listen to melatonin while. I mean, maybe. You'd be dancing. Listen, that's great. That's your vibe. Yeah, yeah, hell. Yeah, yeah. I support it.

I was on a drive last night. It was dark out. I love. I'm never, I'm never out late. What's the song I should listen to at night? Oh, at night. Maybe, um, I'm going to go with Pop Star. Sick.

That one's like very dreamy. On a Sunday morning. Maybe cloud nine. That song feels like very happy and bright. I mean, at the club, it has to be melanin. Melatonin. Melaton. Yeah, definitely.

Um, of course, what song do we have to listen to if we're on a yacht? On a yacht. We're in the French Riviera. Mm. Okay, I love that. I love that. Maybe. I don't know.

I'd be listening to Melitone. partying. Yeah, I'm partying. But, you know, there's a... Let's go with nobody want to dance anymore. That one's, like, sexy. Is this a rebrand, or is this

everyone now starting to discover you? I think it's a... I think I'm just claiming the brand that I've always considered myself. I wouldn't consider it a rebrand. I think I'm just owning that

title. There's this thing about where you're born with taste, but in the beginning you don't have skill. So, you know, you're five years old and you write a song, it's like, this is pretty good. How do I make it great? Right. And how do I make it like what I want it to be?

Right. And it's funny. It's like, when I moved out here at 18, I had this sound that was totally unique. Mm-hmm. and met this producer was like, hey, you got to meet these people. And it was like right in the beginning of whatever.

Yeah. And then there was this like, this big producer who had just done some big albums and they were like, I want to work with you. But we got to do music like this. And I was like, okay. Yeah, you're like, sure. Yeah.

And all of a sudden I'm wearing pleather pants. That's another conversation. But. Wait, was that when you were in the band? Yeah, that was before the band that you, you probably saw Glacier Hiking. Yeah. Yeah.

Crazy. Go back. A long time. That was before that, BAM. But yeah, I mean, even that's like, is that, you know, finding yourself as a writer, as an artist, takes, like, a lot of trial and error. Trial in error, for sure.

And, you know, maybe the difference and the grace I get is that the first two, three albums I did and music videos are hard to find. Yeah. Versus, like, when you're discovering that, to be like, watch this human. and discover who she is. Everything. Everything's there.

Well, cringe or not. Whether it's not even necessary cringe, it just might not even be, it just might not be authentic to who you are, or it might be ultra-authentic and not really realized. It just wasn't very good. Well, it was good in a way.

I was just watching a video that I had edited on, I want to say like, I movie, probably. In like 2013, no, 2011. to a dance record. And because I was thinking about how I'd put this dance record out in 2011, and I went to go see the visual that I made in it. Like, was this, anyways, it wasn't very good,

but it was very cute to, like, look at now and be like, this is, like, literally still on YouTube. Like, it's all there. It's all there. I feel like I'm, like asking this from, like, a dad's perspective. But are you, are you proud of the journey? Yeah, very much so. Yeah, because you see things like that, and then you're like, wow, look at me now.

I got, like, we got a budget now. Like, that's so exciting. That's amazing. Would you have changed anything? I maybe would have done things different if I knew better, but I didn't. So I couldn't have changed anything, you know? Yeah, totally. Yeah.

It's kind of a useless, like, way to think about it. Yeah, I mean, like, I guess, like, yeah, like, I could. have done things different now, but no, because this journey is like I've learned from those experiences. Where are you out after this album comes out? I don't know. Probably go on tour next year. Nice plan.

You think you'll start cranking on albums at fast pace again? Maybe. I don't know. Are you inspired right now after, you've already finished this album? I am, but I'm so busy, like, promoting it. Do you like promo? I do, but it takes up a lot of energy in time. So when it comes to creating music, I really like to be only creating music.

Like I'm not the type of person who likes to tour and go to the studio or like do promo and go to the studio. Like I'd rather be like, oh, I'm going to take a month and just be in the studio. When do you do? I mean, it feels like you are social media conscious. Like when are you creating that kind of stuff? Somewhere in between Like once I've created a good amount of art And then I'm like feeling good about the direction I'm going in

Then like maybe I'll kind of come out of my cave Do you have a personal life? Like my work is my personal life Yeah I mean I have like a really close relationship with my family But like I don't really like date That's pretty great though that you have your family You guys are all close having gone through all this stuff

That's like that's really helpful Yeah, I think I give them a lot of credit for my success in the sense that I've always had this very solid foundation of people and a place that feels like home and feels safe. And so LA has never felt like a scary weird place or the industry has never felt like too scary or, you know, overwhelming because I've always had that solid base. Somebody comes up to you now and says, oh man, I want to be. Tanashi when I grow up. Yeah. What's the advice you give them? Just don't stop.

Like, you just have to be, won't take no for an answer. You have to continue to release music, continue to put yourself out there. No matter what the cost, good, bad, ugly, if people receive it, well, if they don't, if you make something bad and you look dumb,

oh well, you just keep releasing. Like, you keep putting yourself out there. Yeah. I keep thinking about this thing about the industry rewarding a strong nervous system more than talent. It's so tough. And I think that that is very true. Like so many people just stop putting things out in the world because it's difficult. I understand why.

But I think that to me is if you continue to feed the universe and like continue to put your ideas out there, like it'll come back to you one way or another. Like, it's the law of large numbers, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Keep going. What's one word you'd tell young women who are joining the music industry? One word? Yeah.

It can be a phrase. Intuition. Why? Because I think you, your intuition is what's gotten you to where you are now. Your intuition is what's telling you that you must make art or is pushing you in the direction of art. and to always follow that, even when it's questioned, or you feel like it's not as strong of a voice, your intuition will always take you to the right place.

Well, thanks for doing this podcast. Thanks for having me. I love this podcast. I watch it all the time. Really? Yeah, I'm a big fan of it. That's cool. It's great.

I love it because I feel like people don't get to see these types of conversations enough. Yeah, I love it. it's weird, it's weird because, you know, when you get into doing it, you kind of, it's hard to watch a lot of other people's podcast, but I think it's, like, the opportunity, how often you get to sit with somebody and get to tell them how you feel about their career. Yeah. That you like like, you know, like when you're in a session with Ricky or whoever, like, you don't just sit there and be like, hey, so where did you start? Yeah, totally. You don't, you kind of jump in at, at, at. like second is yeah and I also think like when we talk about the music business there's it it's just you know people who are in it understand what it's like to be in it and then people who are outside of it feel like there's like there's this bridge and I think you're like bridging the

gap and I think that's really great because people like all of us like in the music business we're I don't know it's just so interesting I I was younger than you are now when we met Yeah, yeah. And, you know, it's like, I think the way time flies is just, it's just crazy. It's so crazy. In this business, like I was saying, you just have to keep your head down and keep doing it. And crazy shit happens. Yep.

Yeah. And if you can just weather the storm long enough, you know, good things happen. Yeah, I agree. You know? And you look at the things that are negative and you view that it's part of the process. And it's not negative. It just, it is what it is. And you just have to just keep going.

And it's just so enjoyable to see releasing quality music. Thank you. With quality people. You know, like now you're back in a major label system. And having a great time. And because now you've gained the agency and control for your own releases. It's so different. I feel so different.

It's got to feel like a huge weight off your shoulders that this is how you're releasing music now. Yeah, it's exciting. I'm excited about it. So it feels good. Well, I appreciate it. Thanks. I'm excited to have this conversation after the album's out.

Yeah, absolutely. You're going to take your helicopter and land it on top of this place. You're going to be like, oh, I'm so tired. This arena, this arena tour was so tough on me. But I made sure to take my helicopter to your... I have to. I mean, well, I appreciate it. Thank you.

There you go.