And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 269: RAYE | How She Escaped Her Record Deal and Became a Superstar

Episode Date: October 20, 2026

Today's guest is the British singer-songwriter behind “Escapism.” and “WHERE IS MY HUSBAND!” After seven years in a record deal without releasing her debut album, she went independent, landed a UK No. 1 and won six BRIT Awards in one night. This is the story of how she found her own way to succeed—and brought her people with her. And The Writer Is... RAYE! In this episode, we get into: • Signing a record deal at 17, having hits, and still being unable to release her debut album. • The album called “too risky,” the partner who backed it, and “Escapism.” changing everything. • Bringing her family and band into the success, and demanding fairer treatment for songwriters. • Her full writing process, early “Click Clack Symphony.” demos, and nine hours on the “WHERE IS MY HUSBAND!” bridge. and much more. Hit subscribe and turn on notifications. Every week, we go deep with the most interesting creatives in music. Join us on Patreon: patreon.com/andthewriteris Follow us on socials: @andthewriteris A special thank you to our sponsors for making these conversations possible. Our lead sponsor, NMPA — the National Music Publishers' Association. Your support means the world to us. PRS for Music — supporting songwriters, composers and publishers. Find out more: https://www.prsformusic.com/join And @splice — the best sample library on the market. Period. Have you tried variations yet?CHAPTERS 0:00 Intro 1:10 Making music and touring with her family 7:38 What happened to her grandfather's songs 9:49 Ad: PRS for Music 11:09 Ad: Splice 12:16 Ross's stolen-song story and the line between influence and theft 17:33 Who deserves a songwriting credit? 19:52 Why songwriters deserve fees and master points 25:29 The power to say no and protect your splits 28:50 Advice for young writers: choosing your battles and avoiding comparison 33:18 Writing her first song at seven 36:48 The BRIT School and finding her voice 42:21 Subscribe to And The Writer Is 42:50 Jazz freedom and her first music-industry reality check 47:13 The dance hits that came with conditions 48:17 Signing her record deal at 17 54:26 Seven years, hit records and still no debut album 56:33 Going independent and the Escapism. breakthrough 1:02:56 Ice Cream Man. and finding strength through music 1:08:15 The BRIT Awards night she still has not watched back 1:10:38 Making THIS MUSIC MAY CONTAIN HOPE. on her own terms 1:12:38 Playing the early Click Clack Symphony. demos 1:14:53 Why she writes with Auto-Tune 1:17:15 Title first: heels, lyrics and theatrical melodies 1:18:48 Nine hours on the WHERE IS MY HUSBAND! bridge 1:21:19 Getting bigger without trying to please everyone 1:23:30 Who is Suzanne? Picking a song for every mood 1:26:18 Her grandfather's poems in Fields 1:27:04 Opening for Bruno Mars 1:28:48 Closing: building a better music industry CREDITS Hosted by Ross Golan Produced by Joe London & Jad Saad Edited by Jad Saad Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to Anne the Writer is. I am your host Ross Golan. Today's international superstar writes with one foot in the smoky jazz club and one foot in the clubby club club. She's a songwriter's songwriter. She fought to own her voice literally. Her songs literally and her masters literally. And in doing so became one of the most influential advocates for songwriters and all. artist in the whole wide world. All the way from London, England, this artist has a point to share with her collaborators. And the writer is Ray. Hello. What an intro. Hi. Hello.

This is so exciting. It is. How are you? You gave a speech at the Ivers. And I was giving a speech at the Sona Awards out here with the exact same subject about splits. And so we'll get into all that fun stuff. But the first thing I want you to do is brag about your family. Bragg about my family.

Yeah, we can do that. So my sisters, Amma and Absolutely, who are two ridiculously talented artists, who actually both started out as songwriters also, which is really amazing. Abby absolutely started getting her first cuts around like 15, 16 and was able to like leverage herself into bigger rooms

and like she just made everywhere she goes people she just blows everyone's mind and then Amma more recently has started writing she just got some amazing cuts with the flow girls yeah and they're just both so

so talented and then my parents mum and dad dad-a-jera and mamaja which, you know, in theory might sound like a disaster, but I'm so blessed that it just almost feels like it was meant to be. They're just so brilliant. I mean, that's why I wanted to have you talk about it

because I don't think it works for most people. Right. And to have sisters that are also pursuing a similar career, I say that because everybody's career is different. Yeah. But to have all of you guys doing this together, feels like, you know, it's a dream scenario, right? It really is a dream scenario.

I mean... Don't you guys get on each other's nerves sometimes or no? I mean, all families, you know, go through those things. But we spent, like, we were on tour for the first half of this entire year, from January till May. And, you know, my parents had their own tour bus. It was hilarious. So weird.

But, you know, look... Did you ever go over there for dinner for dinner? dinner? Did you go over to their bus for? I confess I didn't. The schedule was pretty hardcore. But what I will say is like, you know, being on tour is hard, especially for that length of time and being able to have your family right there. Like literally on the hard days, my sisters walk out on stage and come and sing this song Joy we did together. And I'm just looking to my left and my right. And I'm like, oh, it's just so wholesome. It's really quite special, I think, yeah. Yeah, I love that Joy is the single. It's like, it's one of those

things where I think it's really predictable that that should be the next single, but, you know, it's not necessarily. So the choice to put both of your sisters on the songs for you guys to collaborate on that and then to do music videos together and all that. I mean, it just, I have, you know, two kids. I'm watching them grow up and I'm just, I hope you guys stay close. Yeah. You know?

Yeah. I mean, there comes a phase, though, in like the, the early adolescence, that there will be conflict. Fair. It's inevitable. Yeah. But you become adults and it all works out. Do you feel an obligation to be a role model in that relationship?

I definitely think, you know, being in the music industry for as long as I have, you know, I feel a sense of protect, big sister protectiveness over my sisters. And, you know, I've enjoyed some tough things and I don't want them to go through those things. and I think that, you know, I've been able to share my experience with them, you know, but also there's an element of just you have to go out there and learn your craft, you know, so, you know, encouraging them not to cut corners and do all the steps, you know, but I definitely think it's worked out perfectly the way that it has, yeah. You also have a multicultural family.

Yeah. So tell me about that. And in a industry that is, you know, I don't want to say it's particularly divided, but it tends to be, it's just that you have an interesting genetic makeup. Yeah. But it explains all the varieties of music that you're into. Right. So tell me about that.

Yeah, we were definitely raised on so many different sounds and feelings and cultures. My mum is Garnay and Swiss, but she was born and raised in Ghana. She didn't move to England until she was maybe in her 20s. So that culture was a very large part of, you know, growing up. And then we have a huge Swiss family who speak Swiss German. And, you know, that's a whole other vibe. No. Sadly, I speak only English.

I always was I would always argue I have a multi-ethnic family that speaks a lot of languages and I always argued that the lazy like isn't music another language though and they're yeah yeah okay okay I speak two languages they give me that but I know it's like kind of a cop-out but it is um yeah and and then on my dad's side he's from up north so middle England Yorkshire um you know but was My granddad, I speak about this before, you know, wanted to be a songwriter when he was younger, didn't work out.

My dad moved to London to be in a band, didn't work out. Yeah, and my grandma on my mom's side loves music passionately. There's always been a passion and love for music. But my parents worked very normal jobs. My dad worked in insurance for 20 years and my mom worked in the NHS, which is like in the mental health sector for 20 years. yeah it was a very um my parents worked really hard so they were out at work you know till seven eight um so grandma picked us from school and brought us home there's my african grandma so my garna and grandma she moved from Ghana moved into the family house to raise us um and i think that's

part of the reason why i have such a huge love for her because she just sacrificed a quarter of her life to to raise us she's uh the voice on where is my husband she's that's her voice there i love her so And you also feature your grandpa. Yes. So it's not like, you know, you're not only, you're literally featuring your family on these, you know. Yeah. It's just fantastic. But it's weird.

From the, you know, from the perspective of your grandfather and your dad now, they are the opposite of failed songwriters. Yeah. And granddad's so proud. And also it's like there's a real pride in, you know, he was burnt by the industry. You know, he was really hurt. And he lived in London. I mean, this is a story that you've talked about before a bit. But what can you tell us more about it?

Because this is an interesting story. Yeah. Your grandfather lived in London, right? No. My granddad lived in Yorkshire. Oh, he lived in New York. Middle England. Yeah.

And he wanted to make it as a songwriter. So he would write songs on the piano, score them and record it all to tape. And then he'd put them in boxes and send them to record labels, post them to record labels in London, hoping that someone would play his tape, hear the song, like it, contact him and bring him down to London to live his dream. Unfortunately, and it was the case back in the day, so many, so, so, so many songwriters were just absolutely done so dirty. You know, you have people who wrote some of the most iconic riffs of all time, got paid 200 quid, and then, you know, you're sat there like, wait, this doesn't, you know,

And, yeah, the same happens to my granddad. He sent a song. And it was released two years later with no credit, no contact. And it completely broke his heart. And there was nothing he could do about it. He had no money. He's a working class guy from Middle England. No, couldn't afford a lawyer.

Can something be done about it now? Have you looked into it? I have looked into it. It's just like financially. I just don't know if the evidence is substantial enough because the evidence was sent off. You know, all he has is a songwriting book with things jotted down. And yeah, it would be a giant, you know, thing. Have you ever experienced, I had one experience with actual theft.

It was like one of my first cuts. Really? What happened? A song can start anywhere in your bedroom, at a piano, in the back of a tour bus, and it can end up everywhere. On playlist, on stages halfway around the world, wherever it goes, you deserve to get paid, and that's where PRS for music comes in. For over 110 years, PRS has protected the rights of songwriters, composers, and publishers. Today, the not-for-profit society represents over-war-profit society represents over-war, 190,000 members worldwide.

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And the writer is. I had one experience with actual theft. Really? What happened? It was, I guess I can talk about it. It was with this band Emblem 3. That was the follow-up to 1D. And I, like, you know, Savin was the EP of it. And so it was like I had just gone through Middle England with 1D to work on this song,

potentially with them. you know, Darbyshire and, like, all that way, you know. And we come back and it turns out emblem three wants to cut it. They're going to make it the second single. The first one was called Chloe, I think, or something like that. And this song is called 3,000 miles. And the day it's about to come out, I get a phone call saying, hey, you know, the song came out. I was like, no, it didn't, you know?

No, it came out. Like, it's out out. It can't be. No, this is called 3,000 light years. I was like, well, then it's a different song. Right. It's just somebody sending it because it's the word 3,000. Right.

No, you should listen to this. No. This artist who is signed through a major producer. Yeah. They had asked for outside songs. We sent it. And they were like, we want to, you know, we want to cut it. And they cut it and we're like, not very, like, not what we want.

Yeah. You know, like, we're going to, we're, we're responsible. Well, you're entitled as a songwriter to approve or, Yeah. Or not. So we respectfully declined. Right. They changed the lyric, the only lyric, to that, and they used the track and everything.

So it's the entire, like literally theft. Damn, that's so dumb. And they ended up getting it licensed in TV shows. It was like a thing. Like, there was, and so, and this song's about to come out. And it's one of my first cuts. And the kind of evidence trail you had to have to be like, hey, we're going to take this down throughout everything. Yeah.

And then, and then, of course, you know, the band. at least is it, and her fans are like, they stole the song. Oh, that's so unfair. That's really unfair. You know, it's like, that thing is like, it's, I think when you have all these people who sue over a potential interpolation because a musicologist out there somewhere says that it's the same. Right. Weaponizing musicology against their own writers.

Yeah. Against their own artists. And any of these lawsuits that are questionable at best, many of which, fail just because someone's trying to make a dollar. Yeah. And then you have actual theft where your grandfather sends in a song and then somebody steals it. And there's almost, you know, then you're trying to legitimize this claim when that one's actually a legitimate claim. Yeah. You know, now that you're a star, do you end up having to deal with this crap more than you did before?

Or has it been good thing? Your songs are so unique. You know, that it's a little less, you know, presumably you deal with it less than some other artists. Look, I think it's natural in kind of culture, in music culture. Someone goes out there and creates something really fresh and really exciting. And then, you know, everyone goes into their sessions. And before you start a session, everyone's playing the song like, oh, this is so, like, you know. And, you know, we talk, there's only so many chords. There's only so many progressions, especially in pop music.

you know, there's only so much, you know, and I get it, the lines can be really blurry and stuff like that, but, you know, music is life absorbed and then regurgitated. And I guess that's going to include all of it. So I kind of, you know, you hear stuff, maybe that you could be like, oh, maybe this person has listened to one of my songs and gone and made something. But I don't necessarily feel offended by that. I think more like, oh, okay, I can see what they did there, and that's really cool. I think maybe I would be upset if it felt like a direct rip, like a really explicit, you know, but I don't feel like I've experienced that. You know, when you have a song like, that I hate the way I look today, where it's, you know, jazz is based in blues, you know, 12 bar blues. And you have these songs that feel. What makes it great is, you know, is lyrics that aren't pastiche.

Yep. So they're current. Right. And they're touching on a feel that is of the world and should be shared by all. Yep. You know, and for somebody who's using, you know, so many jazz and classical references, I always use, like, the Ravel and Chikovsky were famous for sharing refrains. and then they would re-harmineize the refrains underneath.

And that was like the thing that they would do with each other to show like kind of who's better. Wow. You know? And no, it wasn't litigious just because instead it was a, you know, and they weren't banking off each other. It was just a badass move of musicians being like, I see what you did there.

And I want to do this. You know, it's like the weirdest beef of all time. I don't know if they, I assume they didn't hate each other. But to you, what is a songwriter? To me, a songwriter is someone who creates music or creates a lyric. It's a really beautiful process on this album actually that I brought a lot of my band in to write with. Who, you know, this album, the top lines were I took the task on of wanting to, say things of my own voice.

So I didn't collaborate in terms of the top line and the lyrics. But when it came to the music, I wanted just to be surrounded by musicians and musicians that I love. And, you know, so my band accredited as writers, as I believe, you know, was right. And we, you know, we got on a room, we jammed, you know, someone would play something on a horn.

Oh, be like, oh, let's expand on that. That's beautiful. Oh, let's build that. amazing. Okay, could we all do that? Someone take the top part? Great. And it would kind of, before even the top line and the lyrics are formed, we've got this just beautiful sounds forming. And to me, that's writing, you know. It's a blurry line for some people in that regard. But you were creating, I think when you're creating the music together, that is a different scenario than a pre-existing music. or original music being added to a pre-existing song.

Yep. Those are all separate. Yeah. And that's where it's hard for people to accept that if you added the horn line after the song was written, do you give that person songwriting credit, even if it's an identifiable refrain? I think that's where it gets really tricky, you know, because I think it's about integrity and fairness, to be honest. I think if you replay something that's written, that's different, you know. if the music is already written or created,

if you've written something like this eight-bar phrase, and then you've got a player who goes in, plays the eight-bar phrase, but changes a couple notes, and all of a sudden it feels like, oh, you know, you've got to be about it. That's at least how I see it. You're an exceptional vocal arranger.

The person who's going into all those sessions for those years, presumably you went in, after you wrote the top line, you're now doing the harmonies, the calls and responses, you're doing 16 vocals here, there. Maybe you're getting some neighboring rights because they keep your vocals in it, whatever it is. But you undoubtedly shape the vocal arrangement. For all the people who get production for playing drums, do you think that the production for vocal arrangement, that that a vocal arranger should also be credited as a producer? I think that's fair.

No? No, I mean, I'm a singer. Like, I think, like, it bothered me that you'd be, wait a minute, I'm going to do the entire vocal arrangement. You're probably going to keep my vocal in there also. Yeah. And then I'm not credited maybe as a vocal producer or as a producer, or there's no points for that part. Yeah. feels

So look I feel passionately about understanding the difference between the treatment of producers and the treatment of writers I think it goes back to

you know and I've said this before on you know that producers when you complete something are allowed to charge a fee for their time for their completion of the work

and that that's not the same for a writer or vocal producer in that standpoint, I just really kind of believe the top line is just equally as valuable as the production. I think, you know, you can split it into the three. Music, melody, lyric, you know, when an audience goes to see a piece of live music and they stand in the crowd, what are they taking in, that bass that hits them, you know, the music comes in, and then all of a sudden the song comes in, people start singing along. All these components are as important as each other. And I think it can be quite frustrating that I feel like the songwriter

seems to me to be getting the shortest end of the stick in terms of credit and payment and acknowledgement. I think there's even typically, I don't know if I'm wrong in saying this, but we see typically, you know, a producer is a man, typically, you know, sat in the middle of the room on thing in the centre and you know I spent time as a songwriter being the little girl in the corner like I have an idea or I'll jump on the mic or you know and just trying to navigate and just be polite and blah blah blah but I think there's you know for some reason in the music business side we don't seem to believe that a songwriter would deserve a fee you know someone who's in there directing how the vocals sung, how it's delivered, writing what's being sang,

what's going to, you're going to go to a concert and sing along to in the first place. You know, we don't believe that a songwriter should have a master royalty point, but producer should. Now, I just don't understand that in my mind because I do believe that all these different seats are as important as each other for the song that gets consumed and loved by everyone. And I think I have a really hard time wrapping my head around that. Yeah, the producer having full ownership of the master recording that's created feels a little strange because they're the one sitting at the desk. Yep.

But the idea that the contribution of, even in the creation phase, that's what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about additive, additional instrumentation production. Even the additional vocals. all that stuff is stuff that's added to it. Yeah. But to have people in a room creating something and then saying, well, the writer, everyone leaves with the day of demo or the day after I've produced some records and I always try to take care of the co-writers because I've spent most of my time as a co-writer. As a co-writer, yeah. So you see it, so you want to set precedent.

Yeah. But this is one of the things that you've done really well, set precedent. And so I just want you to explain a little bit. I know we kind of went into the weeds. And I really want to talk about you as an artist as a writer as well. But this is your fault for being an advocate. So, sorry, deal with it. But, you know, you've made choices.

You are your own boss. You are an independent artist who chooses to take care of the songwriters. Is that even a question whether that's a difficult thing as a to make the choice to financially split up your pie to share with the writers? I just think it feels like the logical fair thing. I think, yeah, it's just right. I wanted my band to have points on the records that they contributed to. Yeah.

How do you deal with it when you're the writer on an artist that is not you? You know, you're writing with major artists. You started as a writer. I mean, you know, all together-ish. But now you have the clout and you have the skill to be writing hits for a lot of people, you know, and you have. So how do you walk into a room when you don't own the point structure? I think what's, I'm very fortunate in that, you know, I can kind of have my own back, you know, and I can kind of, you know, like you said, we do have power as songwriters over what we create.

We're just kind of bullied into feeling like we don't. And I mean, how many times does that happen to you? You know, you get a call from something like you need to, you can't hold, you know, raw, scary, scary, scary, you know. And I'm really just in a very peaceful, calm way. I'm just not down to be bullied anymore, you know? And I think I just hold those lines. And look, you know, when I'm an up-and-coming songwriter and this is like my livelihood, you know, you concede because you don't want to upset these people who help you get in rooms or hold positions of power. So you give in, you know, and I'm really fortunate that my solo career is going well. And, you know, I'm not I'm not making decisions based on that anymore. So I have a fortunate place of leverage of I can just say no.

be at peace, you know, and be like, if you don't want, if you don't like my terms, then the answer's no. And I'm so, I'm so blessed and lucky to be able to sit into that, sit in that place now because I know what it is to sit on the other side of it. I know, it's so hard to think of, it's so hard to think Ray didn't have the power because your skill was there before the, you know, the commercial success. Right. And that's one of the things that I try to explain to up-and-coming writers. There's a song I had come out about a year ago. It was a really big DJ, really nice guy. The manager came in and said individually to all of us, hey, these are the splits. Right. And I went to the, and I created a chain with all the writers. He told you what the

splits were going to be. I started a chain. And this is the advice I would give all writers on a song, especially when there's more than two. Yep. Even if they're two. Yep. started a chain, said to everybody, hey, I got this email, which means you guys all got it too. Yeah. This is what they're proposing, but I want all of us to discuss it and agree.

And I will respond on behalf of all of us saying we approve or we want to do blank in response. We approved them because they were fair splits. But it set a tone that we are coming into the management saying, thank you. We have, we, and I ced all their teams. on it. We accept these because we feel like that is a fair contribution. We're excited for the song to come out. But I bet that manager from then on is like, oh shit. Like these people talk. Transparency is key. Yeah. You know, it's like. When you give advice to, you know, younger

you at this point, what do you say to a 18 year old writer who's now trying to pursue doing music. I'd say there's an element of pick your battles. There's an element of, you know, I think it's important to know, like, when to put your foot down and when to be like, no, okay, we'll fight another day, you know? It's hard to say, you know, the advice of don't take it personally because it's obviously so, music is so emotional. It's so, it's, you put, you pull yourself in there, you know. Well, especially how you write, if you're writing those, lyrics and you're going to give them that that's pulling from somewhere it's a little different than if you're playing you know if you're playing an instrument you don't necessarily feel the same emotion

not today you wouldn't have spent the time on it but don't there's a difference right I don't know you know I think even just like you know like coming up with some sort of riff that you've been practicing at home you poured into it's such a heart on fire you know and you're going to be like I'm going to give this towards this sort of song that we're creating, you know. And then to be disrespected or undermined or just overlooked at the end of that process can be really gut-wrenching. It can be really hard, especially when you're young, you know, we're young, wide-eyed with huge dreams. And, you know, the business is harsh. It's cutthroat and I, in a kind of messed up way, kind of feel like maybe I wouldn't say anything

because, look, I needed to learn what I needed to learn. And look, the songwriter I was then compared to the song where I am now came like such a long way in my opinion in terms of my skill set and my understanding of music because I felt such an immense pressure to prove myself. It felt such a huge pressure to really want to be taken seriously, respected. I wanted to earn enough cuts that you know people, I would walk into a room and my opinion would be, you know, it would be like, let's hear what she is to say. She's got some good cuts. You know, I wanted to do that. So I think that spurring to prove myself was a large amount of maybe why I worked as hard as I did. You can't rush it either. No matter how hard you want a shortcut, every time I meet somebody who's

like 22 and feels like they missed the boat, I'm like, what are you talking about, man? 22 and missed the boat. That's crazy. Because you see somebody on, you know, somebody, compare and despair. Somebody's on, somebody's looking at someone on TikTok. Comparison is the enemy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hard no. If there was any advice I give to my younger self, No comparisons. No comparisons. Just be you. Everyone's got a different journey.

Every journey looks so different. Yeah. Comparisons, yeah. When you have a grandfather who's an aspiring musician, you know, this is the other thing. I was thinking about that after we talked about that is, you know, when I first started, you know, I just remember my mom telling somebody that I was a struggling musician and I said, no, I'm just a musician. And the further... Who added the struggling? But you didn't have to add that.

Salt in the wound. But that's how people describe it when they're aspiring as struggling. But like, it's real now, right? Yeah. Just hurt. But the thing is, I just talking about opening old wounds. Now I'm going to just be like... Struggling musician versus aspiring musician is so glass-half empty, glass-half-full.

But it's a way people talk about it. Yes, of course. And in reality, it's like... The whole point of the, if there's one thing I learned from 10 years of this podcast, it's that I don't care how successful somebody may appear commercially or otherwise. Yeah. You said when you walked in,

and you said, it's been a long time since you've been in a studio. Yeah. That sounds like somebody who's like aspiring, not somebody who's like, you know, you walk into a room with instruments. You're like, oh, why am I not making music? Because you aspire still. Yeah. You know, when I went independent, there was such a label on, like, you know, failed artist, you know.

And you can choose to, like, accept that narrative or it's like artist who's going again or, you know. And that is really interesting, aspiring musician, struggling musician, you know. That label. A fail versus independent is a, yeah. But, you know, we get to have the final say on that. Again, that's just noise. We have to block out, right? Yeah, 100%.

Yeah. At what point did you realize that, at what point did your dad and grandfather realize that they were in trouble, that these kids are going to end up being, are going to go and try to do this too? I was pretty tenaciously, extremely headstrong, 100% decided, no talking me out of it at 10 years old. that I was going to be a recording artist.

That's what I wrote in my, like, school. You know, in school, they, like, make you fill out. What do you want to be when you're older? I literally put a recording artist. And it... I don't know. Had you ever been in a studio? Not yet.

No. No. So where did that come from? How do you even know what a recording artist is at that point? Probably just, you know, I was super young when I started writing songs. It was about, like, seven. What was the first song you were? It was a song called Change My World.

How does it go? I wrote it from the perspective of a homeless man. We were out in London for a day trip. You know, we were like looking at the tourist sites. Mama and dad had taken us up to town. And there was a man, it was a cold day. It was a homeless man sitting outside. And I was just really upset by it.

So I went home and wrote a song from his perspective. The lyrics were, sorry, I'm not laughing. You know when you're just like, are we really going back there? I'm not going to sing it. The lyrics were cold and tired and hungry. Sing it. Sing it. It's an absolute hard note.

We'll see. We've got a long conversation ahead. We'll see. We're just getting started. We might get out. Okay, so how did the lyrics go? They went cold and tired and hungry. Life was just so hard for me.

All I want is a peaceful world. I look up to the sky and my thoughts wonder why. I get down on my knees. Something, something. There's a world that I need. Change my world. It wasn't great, but it was an interesting perspective from a seven-year-old kid. It's wild, right?

Weird. That some people are just, they're meant to do it, you know? Did you continue to write songs throughout the process? You know, was there ever a time you didn't write songs? No, I caught the bug very, very young. Any opportunity I had to write something for I would. I had, you know, some school talent shows. I wrote original songs.

It was one time I freestyled a song. I was in year five. Like, it's just like, what was going on there? I had some rough chords planned and I just winged it. No one knew. You know, I was year six, the levers day. I wrote a song for our class. Everyone came around to my house.

We had like a mattress. You know, the, you know, IKEA, like the wooden slats as our booths duvet over the top. And we assigned everyone a line, a lyric. It was catch those memories. It was called So Cheesy. Year 7, wrote two original songs for the talent show. Any opportunity I had to write something, I was doing it. Yeah, from a really young age.

The Brits School is obviously really well respected. Shout out to Alster Weber, who I know is working on some stuff to raise some money for Brits School during the Ivers last time. and obviously his dad. Explain what the Brits school is to those who don't know what it is. So the Brits school is a free music school, free performing art school. And it is basically a place where a third of your curriculum can be focused on your chosen strand. As soon as I found out what the Brit school was, I was about 11 when I found out what it was because of Leona Lewis on the X Factor had said she went to British school. And I was like, she's a singer, she's doing it, I need to go to that school.

Then obviously finding out how many insane artists went there. It's interesting because most, not most, all other music schools or performing art schools in London aren't free. or privatize or you have to pay money. So this is kind of like the one hub. I don't know if that's still the case, but it was at the time. This is like the one place that you don't have to be rich to go to the school and get training in your acquired field. Yeah, and my life became focused on how do I get into this school.

I went and learned my grades. I learned different instruments to be able to have a stronger CV. You know, it's a pretty solid audition. process. The head teacher, I still can't call him Stuart, I call him Mr. Warner, I call him Sir. You know, I remember him on the first day being like, this isn't a fame school. You're not here to, you know, do that. You're here to learn your skills. And I think it's a place that obviously has gained notoriety for having so many incredible actors, musicians, artists, you know, people of all of those expressions. So, you know, it kind of attracts.

people like myself as a young girl who was like artist plan A, no plan B, I need to get into this school. And I learned so much there. They give you kind of some of your projects are like, one of our projects was performing, you know, in a pub, the Norbury pub down the road, but you have to do, you have to rehearse your set, you know, you have to plan a performance with a group of people, you know, it was, you kind of get that experience. Also, there's a real competitive energy. You throw a bunch of 14-year-olds hungry with a dream. You kind of have that natural, like, whoa. It kind of gives you a taste of the vibe, really. Adding adolescent life, but then adding career competition in it. Yeah. And I was so annoying when I was younger. Like, oh,

What made you annoying? Because like any opportunity that there was to sing, I was like, me, I'll do it, can I do it? Like I was like that. I was either. Like in math class? No, in math class, I was really like just talking. No, I was so, I got it. I was such a bad kid.

I was either. X equals. Stop it. Stop. I was either really rude in class, which was really bad. Really? I was like one of those sassy like Croydon girls like. Why?

I used to get sent out all the time. I was just hyper. I wanted to focus on things I cared about, and I was a little shit in things I didn't. So I apologize to anyone who was in my math class. Were you a jazz vocalist in school then? Was that something you studied, or is jazz vocal something that you've learned over time on your own?

Yeah, I learned from listening to all my favorite artists. Yeah, Nat King Cole was like one of the first songs I ever learned, Let There Be Love. But I didn't really have the vibratoes or a lot of control over my voice. I think that's something, honestly, I'm going to say since I started touring, you know, last six years, me singing then to me now has come a really long way. Would you ever re-record the music you did before that? No, because, no, because I think once you've done it and you've put it out, move on. For me, that's what I like to do.

The, um, you know, do you consider yourself a jazz vocalist? Because there's so many, there's, you know, clearly there's a lot of it, especially, as we get further down, the jazz is becoming louder and louder.

Yeah. Yeah. So are you a jazz artist? I would say, um, I would say, I would say I, yes and not.

No. Maybe I would say, and I think I've largely now adopted those kind of jazzy inflections and my really like shrilly vibrato into kind of like my pop music. So I guess kind of, yes, in a way. Yeah, but I don't want to offend people who've had like actual proper, proper jazz training in that way. Because I have a, I mean, I studied jazz vocals. I can't do what you can do. Come on. And so many of the great jazz singers were not well-schooled in it. They became schooled in it by touring for a million years.

So give yourself a break. You're earning it the real way. Hey, guys, real quick. Over 90% of you are not subscribers to this channel. And following the channel allows us to keep bringing you incredible guests each week. and growing the channel to offer more of your favorite writers and producers and industry folk, especially artists, it gives us a platform to tell their stories to you. If you can, hit that subscribe button.

Thank you. Now, back to your episode. When you think of jazz vocalists, are you in the Ella, or I guess we can go in order, but do you do like a Billy and Ella, Dinah, Nina, like, Who are your people? I'd say my people, people, people, like my top three are Ella. Yeah, of course. Nina.

Yeah. And Dinah. Yeah. And when I tell you, I spent like, I soaked, I just listened over and over and over again. I think Ella's probably taught me a lot about how to sing in that kind of jazzy style. So do you write, so the runs that you do specifically on this, last album that feel scat-ish. Are you scatting that?

Is that improv? Yeah. Man. Yeah. Are you going to do blue note sets? Are you going to go and start doing some sets that are like solely jazz? And if you did, would you write your own standards or would you be doing covers? Well, we've done a few.

I love to do covers. I mean, of course. I love to do. And you know, honestly, in an ideal world, you do a giant show and then you do a little jazz club. Yeah, yeah. You're a giant, your little jazz cup. That's like in my happy place.

But, you know, I think there's a real beautiful freedom that once you feel assured in your instrument, and, you know, as musicians, we create, we freestyle, we ad lib, we go for it, and I think I feel that. So I think maybe why I love jazz so much is it doesn't have to be perfect. I think maybe you feel those pressure in other genres, especially in a run, like to hit perfectly, you know, in another circumstance, I think I would feel fear. But in jazz, like, if you hit a bum note, you just then bend it and just take it some rails or, like, say, that sucks, let's go again, you know?

There's a real freedom in it. And I really love that so much. When you graduated from the Brits School, it was pretty quick after that that you had some success. What was your ego like when you left? school. That's such a good question. It was a mixture of things. I had released some music whilst I was still at school and by yourself. Yeah, some solo music. It was a project called Welcome to the Winter. It was my mixtape, you know, and I was experiencing feedback real time and the cool kids in school were giving me a little bit of a hard time about it.

I felt really, you know, in that way, just like, I knew that I needed to get out of school and, like, get away from that. I found that quite difficult. And then I remember coming to L.A. for the first time. I remember knowing that when I finished school, I started working with my manager at 14 years old, so I was doing sessions during school, Friday after school, Saturday, Sunday. So I was kind of like quite deep into the songwriting, do sessions, collect songs,

improve the skills, kind of life. I remember coming to LA for the first time and we got here around Grammy Week. You know, I remember being in Soho House. And I remember, you know, having this kind of oversized thrift shop jumper on and, you know, my hair done in this interesting hairstyle. And I just remember like, oh, It really hit me. I was having conversations and like no one was looking me in the eye.

It was very like, yeah, so what do you do? And I was like, oh my God, what's this? Is that welcome to L.A or is that welcome to L.A. during the Grammys? That's what I'm... Or is it welcome to Lale at the Soho House. Honestly, I think it was welcome to the music industry. Like, you know, it was me with... I had like one cut.

I just got one cut. All cried out. It was number three in the UK, a dance pop hit. But I had no cuts on my belt. I just realized I got to the city and I was like, I'm going to have to work to get anyone to take me seriously around here. That's how it really felt. What was the first moment?

I know we're going to jump forward a bit. What's the first moment where people didn't move their eyes from here? You know, honestly, it's been such a, my journey's really been like that. You know, it's really been like, you know, I had a big dance hit. I had a song called By Your Side, which, you know, I really struggled with that process because I didn't write the song. It's the only song actually I've released that I hadn't written. I had some changes I made to the song that they hated. You know, it was Humble Pie off the Humble Pie in that world.

I had to shake my voice into a way that wasn't me. It was a hard experience. That's being a dance feature. You know, it wasn't about me or my vision or my opinion. It was about you're there to sing, sing the song like this, get it done, the end. Why did you do it? Well, I had a lot of pressure at the time from my label on my team being like, if you do this song, then you're going to be able to do more of the music that you want to do.

What did you sign? 17. So it was after you done the first, the solo album, you leave school and then you. The mixtape. The mixed tape. The mixed tape. You get signed to, you know, getting signed to a label, what's your experience, you know, walking in and, you know, you finally get signed? Do you feel like, and it feels like finally when you're 17, you know?

Yeah. Especially if you wanted it from 10. You know, that's seven years of wanting something. Yeah. And you get signed. How sure were you that you were going to be a star? You know what? My signing day was a bit of a mess, actually.

What happened? I was, without naming names, I was, so like three days before I'm about to sign my record deal, right? And I'm, I've met with one of a huge music executive, right? Who is promised me the sun and the stars, right? Yeah. There's an artist that I'm a super fan of. and they said to me, we've played this artist your music

and they've agreed to endorse you. You know, I'm literally like, are you joking? What? Like, I'm literally like, my life's going to change. I've made it. I'm on top of the world. You know, I just finished a gig. And I remember just literally going to bed that night,

literally like, you know, someone out of those, like, teen movies Like, where you're like, like, looking at this guy, like, ah! And then fast forward two days later, this big music executive calls me directly. And basically the idea was it was supposed to be a collaborative deal between the UK and the US. It was going to be a JV or whatever. This big music executive calls me and he's like, you can't sign this contract. And I'm like, what do you mean? and he's on the phone to me for about an hour.

I'm so overwhelmed. I don't know what's going on. I'm 17 years old. I'm in a session. I pause a session. I even put it on speaker. I had Joel Compass, one of my really good friends sat opposite. And I'm on the phone. And he's like, you can't sign it. If you sign it, then I'm going to step back. I'm going to withdraw my day. Like, it was so pulled the rug under my feet. The phone call ends. I'm so confused. that evening I'm supposed to go to the Universal Building to sign my contract, which was supposed to be this amazing JV I was promised. And I'm left with a decision. If I didn't sign my record deal in the Universal Building that evening,

the contract was going to be withdrawn. But then if I waited for this big executive who, has been known to put people in these kind of gridlock record deals with management included taking all your gross profits la la la la la la la la i was literally stood outside the universe in floods of tears with my parents either side of me i was like i don't know what i'm going to do like what do i do and like it was just then and there i decided okay i'm going to walk into this building i'm a british artist i don't want to miss my shot i don't want to waste my shot. I don't want to be stupid. I don't want to make the wrong decision.

So I went into the building and signed the contract. But I was drying my tears. You know, it wasn't the happy, fluffy day that I thought was going to be three days previous. So that was my welcome into the music. That sucks. It's pretty dark. It's so dark because there's a proper channel for those conversations. And that isn't the proper channel. No, they directly called me. Like, I'm a child. Like, they knew what was happening.

Looking back at it now, I know that big artist never heard any of my songs. Did you ever ask that big artist? I didn't, but I got a chance to spend some time with this big artist, and it was never brought up. So I'm assuming I should ask, actually. How crazy is that? It's like the most, this is what's annoying. I defend the industry often because I do.

think it's populated generally by good people who are trying their best. But as somebody said, it's like walking into a hospital and nobody, none of the doctors have a degree in medicine. You know? So you just have these like random people are like, I work at the hospital and you're like, are you supposed to be doing surgery right now? You know, it's all these people who are, you know, I mean, these people in particular, they knew what they were doing. They wanted that I know, this guy is a very big prolific guy he knows how to negotiate he knows how to get what he wants you know I know I was just a part of a that stuff happens all the time yeah it was just my turn it's yeah it's just part of the deal now being a you know this will take a long time if we go all the cuts from

that all the way to finding your independence as an artist and but the the, what's the shortest version of going from that moment of signing that deal to signing a distribution deal for yourself? What, what, what happened in there? Like, it's a huge, it's a huge amount of time. A huge amount of time. And lots of features. Yeah. And lots of like not releasing music.

Yeah. This isn't working out to, I'm going to take a shot at this independence. Tell me about, generally speaking, what that emotional roller coaster is like. Well, it was, okay, pen to paper, okay, let's go, let's give it my best. Started making a record. That kind of got interrupted by, if you do this dance feature, it's going to help you do the record you want to do. do the dance feature, do another dance feature, second dance feature does really well.

Jacks Jones, you don't know me. It was a really big song across Europe and the UK. I start going out with Jacks Jones and singing at some of his gigs, doing promo, kind of trying to get my name out there that way. I then find a giant pink ponytail and start a new kind of chapter I sampled a song. I sample Jarrow Ashanti, always on time in a song called Decline,

which ended up being my biggest solo hit at the time in the UK. It went top 20. It was top 20, I think 20. And, you know, I started doing some headline shows. Then, you know, a little around that, the guy who signed me left. So it was kind of getting a bit more complicated. I was doing a ton of sessions, really focusing heavily on my songwriting. career and my artist career trying to use my songwriting cuts to be able to get into bigger rooms

for my artist project, you know. Then it just started going down, you know, and then there was just, it was just getting really tricky. It was my fourth, fifth attempt at making album number one. And it was just, then that time they were like, no, we're not going to approve the album. And then I just got was just really just really upset, furious, you know, and COVID and all that stuff happens. Yeah, yeah. So we end up going separate ways, take my time to recover. And then, you know, with my dad as my manager, went out looking for a distribution company, a label, anything, just to have that support in releasing a record. and actually just found, you know, a lot of just polite declines.

We were looking at the independent route, the distribution process, and honestly, every other door was just closing, closing, closing. How did that make you feel as a, you know, in this next phase, did you feel like there were options still, or were you running out of options in your head? Or did it not even affect you? No, there was literally one option, and it was human resources. Jay Irving, God bless that man.

Yeah. It was one single man who said, I love this album. The album was there, you know, who said, I love this album, I believe in it. I would be honored to be your distribution partner. I was like, thank God, because no one else was down. Ironically, it wasn't even me that was a problem. It was the music. People just didn't like the album.

Everyone we were playing it to just didn't like it. They thought it was niche or, you know, too risky. I get it. But yeah, so God bless Jay Irving, who, yeah, became our distribution partner. We released the first song, second song, and we released a third song, and that was escapism. And then everything changed after that. It was pretty amazing. Yeah, it's so insane.

I mean, so my 21st century blues is it's a great. good example when most songwriters, most singers struggle with making a choice when they make an album to that the songs are part of a compilation. The records

are part of a compilation. That's what makes an album, right? And it feels like a movie. None of the songs don't belong. They all feel like they move a story forward. And it feels like the curation of that is so skilled.

that, you know, when you think about when it came out, there were some major labels where a bunch of people got let go because they had artists who also had albums that were really cool that were culturally progressive, but didn't have the, you know, this is your poppy, this is your bubblegum single. Right. And when I listened to that in retrospect, of course, Escapism is a hit.

But it's only because I know from this, from this side. Right. But if you listen to that album, you'd be like, at least you'd be like, this is an incredible movie. Like, why wouldn't somebody want to distribute that? You know, but it takes a distributor and a label that has some foresight. Seeing, you know, the success of escapism is obviously like undeniable. And, like, it does change a lot.

it's so raw in the lyric and the production. Did you ever feel like, oh, I didn't realize that many people were going to listen to how vulnerable those lyrics are? I mean, it's one thing when you release a song and, you know, those, the mixtape, you have a bunch of songs in there that are now that have, you know, five million streams. That's very different than a billion. Yeah. More than a billion humans. Yeah. Have listened to that

And you know what? I think like massively It's interesting You know I think I do really believe There needs to be more patience With artists

Especially This pressure on The first thing that's created It needs to just be huge Like we say Like look at Tanashi right now Like My girl is about to just

Have a huge huge moment with this album as she absolutely deserves. Sometimes it takes time, like, but this idea of, oh, it didn't work, so we'll find someone else, is pretty just like, really? It's just, I don't know if that's, I mean, I know that's not the way. And, you know, a really beautiful thing to add to your second point is, you know, with escapism and with this, that album and with this music is just being allowed to be an artist who believes and loves what they're making and loves you know like I would play that song on a loop like I as a listener to my own music which is hilarious I listen to my music loads and loads until it comes out

and then I don't listen again anymore but as a listener I would put that song on and it would make me feel something, you know, and just being allowed to decide and trust your own gut, you know, for, and I think there's this, I don't know, maybe lack of trust in artists to pave their path, trust their audience and trust their instincts, you know, and being independent, I was allowed to do that. And, you know, like you said, on paper, I wasn't expecting it to be a huge, massive hit, but I just believed in my heart that by my taste, it was a good song, and I really wanted to share it. And shouldn't that be enough?

It's like that movie obsession that costs, you know, almost nothing to make, but it was so well done that and it was so, the taste was so, at such a high quality. The storytelling was so well done that it became, you know, the highest grossing movie or something last year. Which is so amazing. And it's a really similar story of, you know, while everybody's putting money on, you know, on this project or that project or this thing. And then here, like, you're not looking over there, but this is what art looks like, you know? And in the end, that's the only thing you can control.

Yeah. We've talked a lot about the music industry, and we have to talk about ice cream in because it is so important, you know, that. the songwriting producing industry did not get hit with the Me Too, uh, me to the same way that the record side did. Yeah. And to have the bravery to not only go through it, but then talk about it. Tell me about the creation of ice cream in.

So the creation of that song, um, I originally wrote that song with one of my dear friends, Blood Pop. Mike, and then I brought on Mike Sab of a year or two or three or three and a half years later to help me finish the production. Yeah, it was a devastating session. You know, I was really young when I started that song, maybe like 19 maybe. I mean, when we look at everything, even what's going on right now in the Cornell University case, being a woman, who speaks out about what they've become a victim to, their pain, their trauma. There's such a, first of all, having a thousand people's opinions on it is so traumatizing.

Having people come out and be like, I don't believe you, what? like seeing how destructive and almost just as painful, it can be having to live through your traumas and your pains and then having to then put it out, trying to get justice of some kind or put someone behind bars, like all of that. Like it's so devastating. It's such a devastating thing to watch and to witness. and to experience. And for me,

I just didn't know what to do. And then I'm so fortunate and blessed that, you know, music is my therapy. I'm so grateful that what that song has allowed me to do when I really deep hit is to, in real time, feel powerful in my own way, in my protected way, in a way that, you know,

no one can come over to me and tell me I'm a liar, you know, you know, I'm protected from that, which, you know, that's a whole other thing. I'm just grateful for the gift of music. And, you know, like, I would sing that song on stages and just like literally break down, you know. I think what's really beautiful about that song

is it allowed me in real time to kind of, heal in my own way, you know, and at the same time fill a deep connection to those of us, the statistics is one in four women and men, you know, will experience sexual assault, rape, sexual violence in their lifetime, which is like a core of the population, you know, which is huge. So, more than anything, just grateful for the gift of music. And in a way, grateful that I decided to want to share a song like that. I made a video for it that was really hard, really difficult, you know, but just allowing my art to be the form of my therapy. And, um, you know, we know what goes on in the world. There are good people and there are not good people. And there

are evil people. And there are people who abuse their power over young girls or young boys or, or or people who, just, it's just life. So, yeah, as deep and tough as it is, I just feel more than anything, just so grateful for music because it really did truly save me. There are some resources in the United States with music cares. If you've been a victim of any sort of sexual violence,

Music Cares has resources for you. In the UK, I'm sure that the Ivers are a place you can reach out to as well. Some of the, uh, the studio has been so famous for being a, um, a place that, that can hide these,

these and it's, uh, I, but I, I applaud you for having the, just the, the, the, the, the, strength to do that. It's important because we as an industry still don't really talk about it and it's so prevalent. You know, going back to the art of that album, obviously starting to get Grammy nominations and getting Brits and the recognition from the Ivers, did you feel at that point or at any point that you've made it? Or having gone through all those, that roller coaster

to get there. One of the joys of going through the roller coaster is that when you're there, you're kind of like, huh, I can handle this now. When you're 17 and you graduate, no way. Do you have the ability to do that? You know, do you feel like you, did you feel at any point that you made it? I think, yeah, having on my shelf these awards that I dreamed of as a little girl was just exceptionally surreal that night of the Brit Awards is one of the craziest things I've ever experienced.

I still haven't watched it back. I want to watch it one day and like see what I went through because it was just this magical blur, you know, and my goal was always to just, my goal literally was to be an artist who could go anywhere in the world and perform an arena. That was my benchmark, you know, and we're very nearly there. Yeah, so it's quite an amazing, beautiful dream come true place I find myself in now. Okay, so finally we're at the new album, and it's so great. It's, by the way, I don't say this. Like, it sounds like I don't talk, let's say this to every person that we talk to,

like that every album is good, but it's another experience as an artist to make a new movie. I feel like I went and I saw another movie. And again, I use this as an analogy because so few artists recognize that this compilation of records they're working on is not trying to just put hits together. That's a greatest hits album. That's fine.

You will get there. But you have to do the movies. If you're a real artist, give me a movie. This is a movie. This music may contain hope is a movie. And I mean, I hope that we're in the beginning of the Grammy. season and I hope we get to hear a lot more about this album over the next few months.

But you made a choice. There's real orchestration. There's a lot of instrumentation on it. I mean, you're the label exec now. Aren't you like, aren't you supposed to save your money? What are you doing? Why did you do that? I don't know.

Why did you hire everybody to play? I know. You know what? What an amazing thing to get to make this album. is just like pure musical indulgence. Like for me, it's just like as ludicrous as I wanted to express myself, I went for it, you know. And I was such a freeing experience.

It was a draining experience because I really, really just gave everything I had in wanting to make this kind of large, dramatic, very maximalist musical expression. you know, there are like so many versions of each song, you know, so many different verses, so many different choruses, so many different, you know, you're staring into the abyss of or something it could be and it's just like, what, you know, it was just, yeah, it was musical freedom. What do you do with your extra lyrics? I mean, when you say you have extra verses and stuff, and it's not, it's not, it's not like one syllable words, it's sophisticated, rhyme

schemes and whatnot. What do you do with your leftover lyrics? What do you do with lyrics that get cut? Do you reutilize them? Do you have a folder of stuff? Yeah, sometimes. Sometimes, like my verse on Born Again, Lisa and Dojahat was a verse I wrote like loads of years before, but tweaked with some new changes in there. So every now and then I'll be like, do you know what? I liked this. Let's bring that back. That's a good afternoon because like, ah, this is going to make me look really smart. Maybe they don't need to know that this has been hanging around. Yeah, I wrote this just now. Yeah, here it is.

Click, Clack Symphony. You have, I mean, I mean, like you're making a, you're making a, I use the word movie to describe the album, and then you have Hans Zimmer as a collaborator. What's your voice memo sound like for making a that? I actually have. I have some voice memos. So there's loads of me and Mike shouting at each other joyfully.

Let's hear this. Shout on Mike Sabbath. Yeah, right? Go to this. So that you flat. Yeah, so. That's me in the piano. Singing my ideas of Mike.

That's Mike growling with the real excitement. I have also the demo. which is like quite different, or the first working day demo. Oh. Just saying nothing. Sorry, I'm going to fast forward it. I'm going to fast forward it. Send a call out, send a call out.

Calling on my baddest bitches is about to go down. Click, click, click, click, click, clack. Symphony, I love the sound of it. Who let the girls out? I did. I did. I did. Very dramatic.

Loads of Autotune. I love to write with Autotune. I like this demo, actually. Yeah, like a completely different. I mean, so. Yeah, just like, I appreciate the fade out. Yeah, that makes it. You know, you could sing the phone book,

and what you just said there is important that using things like Autotune has this, fissory response from people who think that they know how music is made, but don't recognize how the tool can be really helpful. Explain why you love something like that when you don't need it, you know? Oh, so writing with auto tune is like I will do it for every song and then I'll recut without if it's a song that I don't feel like needs that effect. Writing with auto tune means you're not thinking about your pitching. You get a beautiful sound. straight away. You can sing yeah and it right there was like flat in between two microtectoid

whatever but you get this like straight on the thing so it allows you to think about what you need to think about which is the melodies and the lyric and the feeling and you're not insecure you're not like oh that sounded bad or you're straight away just in this beautiful space so I love to write with autotune so that I'm not thinking about, oh, let me make sure I pitch myself great. When you use reverb and you want that kind of full, like, you know, the echoes and the delays, when you want that, if you're slightly a micro bit out, it's going to echo 10,000 times in your ear. You know, either you do dry, either you sing dry, you know, if you're writing that kind of thing, or you do all, my engineer knows it's all or nothing.

So it's either dry, a small bit of compression, no verb, no thing, like zero, like just nothing. Or just the swimming, extra this, extra that and auto tune on speed, retune speed, 10. I love it. I totally get what you're saying. And it's a thing because it makes you sound this. Some of what your job is as a songwriter, which may be slightly different as being an artist, may be the same, but is to meet some of the expectation of the listener. And so you can immediately get to the point of listening to the song

rather than analyzing it in a way that's detrimental to the writing process. I'm surprised to hear so many melodies being that you're such an astute lyricist to be writing from lyrics. But I would have thought that you were a lyric first person the whole time. Are you not a lyric first person? Title first. So click, clack symphony existed before the song did. And then you get the concept of one of the heels as the backbeat.

You know, I get the concept of this wanting to feel like girls marching out on the thing, overcoming depression, getting, dragging your friend out the house, being like we're going to face the night, get snap out of it kind of vibe. So you have the intention. And then that's why there are so many versions. That's a version of just random adlibs melodies. But then, you know, then you're going to wrestle with the lyric because then I'll be like, okay, but I want to say this and this melody's too smooth.

I can only say five things here when I want to say 25 things here, which is why my melody, on this album is so wordy and theatrical because I wanted to say a lot. You have songs on this album and on the previous one where the, you know, the time, your timing can be something where you're pushing, this is the jazz in it too. You know, you'll have, you'll have not just 6-8, but you'll do stuff that feels out of time. And because it's, sometimes it's,

it's the melody serves the lyric, which serves the melody, which then the instrumentation follows that. Whereas my husband, though, is like a clear, straight, like, hit. Did you think this, when you were done with it, like, oh, that's the single? Was it even a question? because it seems very obvious that that's the single?

Yeah, during, once, once on the day, on the day I spent nine hours on the bridge, was the day that evening, my creative director drove up to the studio and we sat then. I was like, guys, it's got to be this one. But I wasn't thinking, I wasn't thinking, what's the hit? I wasn't thinking that, I guess.

So I think in my mind, I actually wanted to go with, I know you're hurting first, just because I loved that feeling and that message. And I was like, I want to lead with this. But actually, when we finished husband, I was like, we'd be stupid not to, like, go for it with this one. Where is, where is he? Oh, we don't know. You would have thought. When you're on tour with, also when you're on tour with your parents and your sisters, no offense, but it's been. Probably not like the easiest way.

I don't know. I mean, tell me about writing, where is my husband? This was such a, this was me and Mike took a trip to Big Bear. We rented out on Airbnb. And actually it was just after the Grammys. So I'd have this huge high of just like, oh my gosh, like getting put on arguably the biggest stage in music. You know, such an adrenaline. and a preparation that goes into that

and then you just do get a big crash after these big moments in life. It just, it kind of happens and it so happened that I was in a big kind of crash as we were on our way and got to Big Bear. We set up the speakers, set up some synths and stuff like that. And yeah, I hadn't written in ages.

I was kind of in a similar place like writing-wise. I haven't written since the album, you know? Yeah. Wow, so you take that much time off? For somebody who wrote from when they were 11 years old? I can't tour and write. To me, touring is as energy out as writing.

Like, I physically can't do both. I can't multitask in that way. Yeah. And, you know, like, I think, you know what? Something I'm learning more recently is, You know, everyone's going to have an opinion. It's also interesting realizing that the larger something that you create is able to create that ripple. You know, like, husband, I think is probably my biggest song to date. And it's put me on some huge stages. It's, you know, I think raise an awareness more of me in America. Like, I think it's helping me to grow in that in that way. But then what comes with that is just more opinions, you know.

And I'm so blessed to have, you know, such a beautiful fan base of people who buy tickets to my show who turn up, who love my art or believe in it or resonate with it, you know. And then there's also a larger amount of people who, you know, don't like it. And, you know, I think it's also allowing ourselves to have peace as artists that to make something that everybody likes isn't something that. that I think I want to aspire to. And I don't want to be bullied or feel afraid and feel like, oh, I should make something that everybody, you know, or that should be a choice because that's the choice, you know, I feel as an artist I want to make,

not because I've seen someone express this and that and this, and maybe I should then therefore be more this. It's a really big battle, I think, you know, taking in the opinions and actually just, just letting them go and realizing every great artist out there has loads of people who dislike something or have something negative to say, you know, and some people are going to think that. And I think more than anything, it's, I'm grateful I get to express that through my art. I get to sing it in that song. I get to make my point the way I want to make it. And then I

have to go away with my therapist and work out how to let go of anything that I don't need to allow to attach itself to my identity. Easier said than done, but that's the mission we're on. Wait, who's Suzanne? Who is Suzanne? Suzanne is basically when Mark first played me this beat, I was like, this should be called Suzanne. And it was a crazy story because this was a song we wrote for AP's 150th anniversary. And actually, the main lady who bursted, the Audemar line was called Suzanne. Suzanne Ottomar. So it was like, we were all like freaking out.

Like, oh my gosh, what amazing coincidence. Yeah, it was just random, but a beautiful coincidence. Okay, so if I'm listening to the album, what song should I listen to when I'm on a night out with my friends? Maybe I'd say winter women, just turn it really loud. Oh, nice. It's got like a bass. You don't need to listen to the lyrics.

Just have a nice time. If I need a confidence boost. If you need a confidence boost, I'm going to say happier times ahead. Oh, that makes sense. Yeah. If I'm alone drinking Merlo. You do talk about drinking wine. I do, yeah.

But maybe not Merlot. I don't know. I mean, I love a good Merlot. Okay. Yeah. What is your wine of choice? Maybe I'll do a Pino Noir now. Okay.

So I'm alone drinking. Pino noir. What song should I listen to? Nightingale Lane. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I'm going to go and sing with my two sisters, but it can't be a song that they're on. What songs am I going to sing off this album?

What song are you going to sing? I'm going to say skin and bones. If you're going to sing one of Absolutely's songs, what song would you say? Oh, that's such a good question. I'm such an absolutely stand. Um, I mean, no audience is so incredible, but I don't think that I feel like I couldn't eat that, how she eats that. What would I sing? Does she, does she know that?

No. Oh. I mean, she, I mean, that's, yeah, she's, pf. Um, I do really like prototype. Maybe no furniture. but maybe nowhere to hide I just really love

sorry I'm really thinking about this because I just care about the answer do you know what I just don't know you yet would be the one because you know I relate to those lyrics

I think that's really beautiful so what about your grandpa my grandpa yeah like what song of your grandpas do you know well enough to sing he doesn't really write songs

anymore he writes poems which is really beautiful but what was really beautiful in fields was we collected some of his poems and i used that to help inspire the lyrics i love that song yeah i was thinking i mean the conniving part of me was like what you should do is cover the song and then watch them try to come after you see what happens then honestly that would be pretty um i got your back if you want to go into that. I appreciate. I think I'm going to need all the help I can get if we ever opened that door. Tell me real quick.

What's it like opening for Bruno Mars? It is, I mean, it's been an amazing experience. I've definitely chosen a set of songs that are more less known. So, you know, I feel good in my decision to want to do the set that I have, because we have 30 minutes, you know, I want to be really intentional about using that time and my message is like hope and I'm trying to do songs with a nice positive arc and then we finish with husband. It's a huge environment.

Stadiums are not a joke. So it's been like good to learn how to play to a stage of that capacity. What's a difference? I always get in my head with support shows are pretty like, you know, it's not your crowd. Like you're there to like win. And also people are so far away that you can't necessarily see. But when people put their torchlight up, I'm like, okay, good, we're doing a good job. But down the front, you know, you've got, yeah, so some people are like really smiley and nice.

And then other people are like, girl, like, I'm here to see Bruno. You know, and you're like, yeah. But it's good. It's the right kind of, that's how you get better at performing, you know, opening. Yeah, I mean, you know, there's always an opening act. It's like, you know, there are artists always bigger than, you know. So there's always that. America is, you know, a territory.

I still have a lot of work to do, you know. People mainly know. I love that you posted, though, the three one, the three different billion plaques. First of all, thank you for doing this podcast. Thank you for having me. I get the feeling we'll do this every time you release an album. But, you know, you've earned all of it. the right way.

Like we said, you can't expedite any of it, you know, and to be performing at a stadium and feeling like you've worked to do. To, like, be, you know, you're here doing this partly because, in my opinion,

you're probably going to get a bunch of Grammy nominations for an album that you sweat on with it, that you, you're the owner of the record label because you've worked really hard to build a culture around yourself from being in cultures that suck. You had to learn how to be,

the only way you'd know how to build a good culture is by having experienced ones that needed a lot of help. And then after that, you have the, you know, the ability to stand up on stage at the Ivers and Brits and everywhere else talking about songwriter rights and from a place of eloquence

and knowledge and not from just an emotional place, you're coming at it from the experience of not getting credit the way you should or having to share publishing in ways you shouldn't or having not getting points. All these things are because of your experience. You've become such a positive leader for the community, not just in the UK, but here. And it's just so, so appreciated. and I am just hoping so much that you get all the accolades you deserve with this album

and then I can't wait to hear the next one. Thank you. That is really, really kind. And a testament to why we got to not want to change the past, just focus on the future, right? Amen. Yeah. Amen. Is what it is.

There it is. Thank you for having me. This has been really, really good. me. There you go.