And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 29: Thomas Rhett

Episode Date: November 6, 2017

Kicking off CMA Week, this guest has been breaking charts and blurring genres since the start of his career. Raised on tour with his father and influenced by country, rock and hip-hop, songwriting and performing came naturally to this unstoppable artist. Only eight months into his first publishing deal, he contributed to Jason Aldean's 4x-platinum album 'My Kinda Party' with his song, "I Ain’t Ready To Quit." He went on to pen hits for artists such as Florida Georgia Line, Scotty McCreery, Joe Nichols, and Lee Brice. "Die A Happy Man," the single off of his sophomore album 'Tangled Up' won BMI Country Song of The Year and was nominated for the 2016 Grammy Award for Best Country Song. His latest album 'Life Changes' debuted at #1 on Billboard and features smash hits such as "Unforgettable" and "Craving You feat. Maren Morris." And The Writer Is...Thomas Rhett! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey guys, this is, and the writer is, and I'm your host, Ross Golan. I've written with hundreds of artists and writers over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life, the industry, politics, composition, whatever. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs, and most importantly, who the people are who write the songs. I'm producing this with the Great Joe London, big deal music publishing and mega house music management if you want to listen to the songs we

discuss in this podcast follow us on our socials find out about special events or buy some of our merchandise go to our website www www.andthe writer is dot com oh and if you enjoy this podcast please rate us on iTunes or whatever your preferred podcast listening site is we really appreciate that effort this week we are featuring five country music hitmakers in honor of the CMA Awards. The biggest stars are coming together on one stage where the heart of country music beats stronger than ever. Watch as Brad Paisley and Carrie Underwood host the 51st annual CMA Awards this Wednesday

at 8 o'clock, 7 o'clock Central on ABC. See powerful collaborations by Kelsey Ballerini and Reba McIntyre, Brad Paisley and Kane Brown. Marin Morris and Nile Horn and more. It's country's Night to Shine with unforgettable performances and the best of the best honored in several categories. For more information, visit CMA Awards.com. Kicking off the first ever, and the writer is CMA Week. We have one of the best guests of the season,

a guy who's been breaking charts and blurring genres since his very start, A guy who single off his album as an artist was Die Happy Man, which won BMI Country Song of the Year and was nominated for last year's Grammy for Country Song of the Year, co-written by our one-and-only Joe London, and has recently achieved a number one album on the Billboard charts with his album Life Changes, which features smash hits, Unforgettable, and Craving You featuring Marin Morris, is the one and only.

Let's get to it. And The Writer is featuring Thomas Wreck. Welcome to And The Writer is. I'm your host, Ross Golan. This week's artist sells out arenas. He writes hits for other artists who also sell out arenas. Although he's genetically predisposed to be a musician, his work ethic is legendary.

His music is redefining a genre because he's not afraid to tap into other genres. From Georgia, this guy is not just a rock star, but is a philanthropic trendsetter. And the writer is some new up-and-coming artist Thomas Rett. What's up, man? Hey. How are you? Nice to meet you. That was an amazing intro.

Yeah, yeah. I appreciate that. It'd be great if you literally just walked in, and that was the first thing you heard me say, versus hanging out for a minute. I'm going to use that as my show intro. I'm just going to get you to record that and just play it before every show. Dude, and so interesting. know it. I found out there was

when I was with who was it, there was some artists I was with recently who, I want to say it was Keith, but maybe it wasn't. Somebody who said that they used my house as part of the intro of their show. I think it was Keith. It's possible, yeah. Yeah, yeah, and they used

like the, and I was kind of interesting because that's so much my voices in it that I was like I kind of felt like I was part of like the welcome to Keith Urban. Welcome to the Keith Urban show. Yeah. Speaking of that song, a friend of sitting across the table played me the recording of how you guys wrote that song.

Oh, yeah. It is unreal. It makes me want to record every session that I do. You don't record, like, voice notes? I mean, I record voice notes, but I don't record as long as that. Like, I don't leave a device running. I'm the worst co-writer ever.

I barely show up with a guitar or anything to write with. You're right. But today I did bring a guitar. Yeah, it's an old guitar. An old guitar, yeah. Well, how did you find a 1941 guitar? My dad bought it for me for winning an award this year at an award show.

Which award? ACMs. Nice. Yeah. That's a pretty nice... It was amazing. That's probably nicer than the actual award. Yeah.

To a songwriter, you're like excited to have the award, but to have that guitar. Well, yeah, I mean, my dad, it takes him three weeks to figure out which pair of flip-flops he's going to buy. So for him to go and actually purchase something like that was a... was a big feat. Yeah, I like that. So here's some random six degrees of separation for you and me. Okay. We met once before.

We did. Yeah. We met on stage for the country BMI Awards when I won for Compass. Wow. Because it was, they asked everyone to come up on stage who had never won an award before. And that was your first award. Yeah. And so there's some picture of me on stage.

with you and Brett Eldridge, I think, was up there. Yeah. And a few others. And I just remember being like, wow, this is awesome. I'm never leaving Nashville. But that's the last time I've been on stage. Well, that's my bad, dude. I thought we'd never met before.

No, I mean, well, it'd be weird if you remembered that. Like, for me, you know, it's out of context, too. If you were in L.A., and all of a sudden, you know, we met at that kind of award show. Yeah. I don't think we actually talked. I think it was just like, oh, this is so cool. Here's some awesome, you know.

Here's a difference. In Nashville, country stars show up to the BMI Awards and the ASCAP Awards. They're a huge part of that community. So I had never seen that. There are country artists who show up who don't win awards. That would never happen in pop. It's hard enough to get the pop stars who write to show up to get their own award,

let alone here it's a different environment. Yeah, I mean, I think we take pride in, in how much of a community we are. I mean, not just country artists, but even the artists, we respect the songwriter so much because we do realize that our careers would be nothing without having amazing songs pitched to us every day. So the BMIs are obviously that one night of the year

that you do get to celebrate the songwriter. And because us artists love the songwriter so much, even if we're not up for awards, we love to go and support all of our friends who had huge years. And my dad's won songwriter the year a couple of times. and people that I grew up with have also won many awards, and so it really is a cool town because everybody kind of knows everybody

and everybody kind of shows up for everybody and supports everybody. So it is a really cool community that we have here national. I mean, I imagine that you guys basically have these barbecues and these, like, you know, these random, like, that at a wedding, it's just basically, it's just that award ceremony, just a different thing to celebrate.

Totally. You know, it's like it's, you know, football Sundays or something and everyone around is just, you know, just happens to be a random hit songwriter. Right, yeah. It seems to be that way for sure. And everybody, I mean, everybody's just friends. You know, everybody really does support each other and it's a fun spot to live for sure and be a part of. Well, okay, so let's let's give some background. So you are from Georgia. Yes, born in Georgia. And then you move here when you're five. Yes. Okay. Were you already playing music basically out of the womb?

Pretty much, yeah. Were you playing guitar or were you playing piano? Or was it sort of just doing what... Yeah, more so just singing what was on the radio. I mean, you know, having a dad that was a country music singer and just a music lover, I feel like from the age of like four, I loved to sing songs that are on the radio. My dad did a great job at like really...

Played me and my sister a wide variety of music. So obviously country music was my first. club because that's what dad did for a living but on the way to school every morning like dad would play something different to us every day like one day it'd be freaking DMX and the next day it would be paul McCartney's solo records and then it would be Aretha Franklin and then like Ricky Skaggs and so my sister and I as much as we probably hated it at the time being four years old because all we cared about was will Smith and Justin Timberlake as you get older you start to really appreciate the fact that your dad ingrained amazing music into your head and I think that's what makes me such a versatile

writers because I grew up loving so many different kinds of music. So I didn't start playing guitar until I was like 15 or 16 in high school and really started playing guitar for the reason everyone else plays guitars just to impress women. Yeah, right, totally. Yeah. Why do people, and even if you grow up listening to DMX and Justin Timberlake, which is kind of a funny image, but, you know, why don't... At a private school. Yeah. At a private school? Yeah. So you're showing up in like a uniform? Yeah.

Very lame. D, um, it's like singing that. Just down the hallways, yeah. Yeah. Why didn't you just continue to write that kind of music? Why did you decide to get into country? I mean, when was that transition of, you know what, I really want to write music that makes sense here?

Or was it? I mean, to tell you the truth, like when I was in, I think the first band I was ever in, I was in sixth grade, and my dad had got me a drum, kid from a birthday that year and like a couple other buddies. We were all horrible at our instruments, but we started a band called the High Hill Flip Flops when I was in sixth grade and we were a punk rock band that basically wanted to be the Ramones, like our lead singers sang in a British

accent. You know, we all died our hair black. A Nashville kid singing with a British accent. Yeah. And my uncle came over to Dad's house one day and recorded a little four-song EP on us. And we played one show ever. It was at Matthew Johnson's Halloween party. It was pretty awesome. Did people show up? Like 30. Yeah. Were you the coolest kid in school?

No, we were the opposite of that. Really? Yeah, no one really was into what we were doing. Everyone that I grew up with was country music listeners only. And so once I got into high school, that's when I was sort of playing guitar. And obviously, that's when my dad kind of stopped doing the artist thing and became strictly just a songwriter. And so I got really intrigued at what that looked like. and I've always been intrigued by country music,

mainly just because of the stories I thought, you know, they told and just the genuineness that I thought the singers sang with. And so as I started to go through high school, learned how to play guitar and learning country songs on the radio. Who were you learning? Man, Eric Church is still one of the biggest reasons that I ever wanted to write songs in the first place. The quirkiness in which he wrote,

the kind of just like the, you know, I don't care attitude, like I'm going to do me. I'm going to write whatever I want to write. Don't care if it offends you. This is what I like to write. And I just was very inspired by him and a guy named Merle Haggard, who, yeah, that's who my dad grew up listening to. And so obviously, Merle had a big spot in my heart. And I think just the songwriting and the way that they told the saddest story ever in three minutes is what really drew me to country music. And obviously in 2017, country music is somewhat of a loose term.

It's kind of like country meets pop, meets hip hop, meets rock. So it's kind of like my dream come true that I get to be a country singer, but also get to like use all my other influences to kind of make my own brand of country music. Did you get to tell, have you ever told Eric Church all that? Yeah, I got to write with him last year. Were you nervous? Very. Really?

Yeah, because when you see Eric Church, the Eric Church is on stage and he has the hat real low and the sunglasses like you think, like, this dude could seriously mess me up, you know? Yeah, it does have that vibe. But then, you know, I won't give like his cover away. But when I did write with him and the shades were off and the hat was off, it's like just a very, very sweet guy. We got to write and then got to exchange phone numbers and like sometimes I'll see a text that says Eric Church

and I still get kind of giddy. Yeah. But, yeah, man, he was a huge, huge reason that I ever wanted to write songs. Did you ever meet Merrill Haggard? No. I saw him play with, I went and saw Bob Dylan. and he was opening. And I knew of him, but I'd never seen him.

And he was old enough where people were, he needed two people to kind of go underneath his arms and carry him to the middle of the stage and perform. And within his song, he's flipping off the audience as part of a lyric. And the guy's got to be at that point mid-70s, at least. And Dylan went up, and yeah, it's Bob Dylan. obviously great for what he does.

But you can't understand a word he's saying. Merle Haggard went up and I just went home and I'm going to listen to anything and everything Merle Haggard. Just get into that because you really feel like he's a... I think he actually did get arrested a couple times, but he definitely was like, you believe the outlaw. Oh yeah. And that.

Well, even like literally two weekends ago, I played at this thing in New Orleans. It was called the Bayou Superfest and it was a big festival. and like the most random lineup of all time. It was like Dan and Shea, me, or no, Dan and Shea, Hank Williams Jr., me, Blake Shelton. Like, I don't know that it gets any more random than that as a lineup. And Hank Williams Jr. was obviously a part of that outlaw phase. So like Hank Jr., Willie Nelson, but more peaceful, Merle Haggard, Waylon Jennings, that whole crowd is like, that wasn't, that's not,

fake writing. That's real life stuff. They're real alcoholics. They're really are. With law problems. Right, exactly. And I think that's what made it, that's what made that whole era

of kind of outlaw country music so famous is because kind of like hip-hop in a lot of ways, like bad boy era, like that stuff was just real. And I think that fans will always gravitate towards real. Did you ever feel pressure to write that kind of country? I still feel it, man. Like every time I go on stage at a festival, I'm terrified because, you know, I mean, I'm wearing skinny jeans and checkered vans.

And, you know, then you got Hank Williams Jr. coming on stage. And it's obviously just a whole different crowd. And there are definitely a lot of traditional country listeners that absolutely hate what I represent as far as the genre goes. But at the end of the day, if you are to take any note or knowledge from Hank or from Merle, they will always tell you that doing you and being yourself is the only way you're ever going to be successful. So even if what I do is way different than what they do, it's still what I do.

I had a tour. My first tour was opening for Jurassic 5. I just did maybe like maybe a few weeks. But just being like a white guy on acoustic guitar, kind of doing hip hop in front of, not that Jurassic 5 is the most urban of hip hop, but it was still like hip hop and performing in front of an audience

that didn't want to see me every night. Yeah. It was like a really complex. thing to do. But it did teach me how to try to write songs that even those people can understand. Absolutely. Do you feel, have you been able to integrate that kind of well I guess you, like you were just saying, you like making sure that you're

really honest in your songs, but have you integrated any of those things in your songs where you're like, that's kind of strange that I sing this song about. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, on the new record, there's songs that talk about things that I have personally never experienced, which is kind of hard to come across as authentic, but I do feel like if you can also tap into the way that many other people in the world feel, and you can write about that, even if you have an experience personally, I do think that people can take what you say about their life and take it to heart. But I am way better at writing about what I know. Sure. I know about high school heartbreak. I know about

high school love. I know about marriage. I know about kids as of three weeks ago. So I love taking past experiences and putting them into songs. Nostalgia is like one of my favorite. I love songs that are nostalgic. And I kind of feel like that's what I do best. So when you, you know, you're out here, you're now, let's go back to the band. What does it call? The high-heeled flip-flops. Yeah. You're in this band. You're playing for 30 people. How do you get from that to, like, oh yeah, you know, I'm going to start writing my own songs and making them, because you're playing drums at the time. Yeah. And so when are you, you know, you said at 16, 17, you start playing for, so girls like you. Yeah. You know, are you writing, is that when you started writing,

or were you just doing covers? Just doing covers, man. I can remember, like, the first song I ever learned how to play and sing on guitar was, um, was a song by Matchbox 20. Which one? Um, 3 a.m. and I must be lonely. It's like the easiest song ever to play and sing. And so I really just, I learned how to play guitar just by learning songs that are on the radio. And I dabbled in songwriting, but even to this day I'm not a good writer by myself.

Like I can come up with an idea by myself, but once I started co-writing with other people in college, it made it, first of all, it's way more fun. Second of all, you can bounce what idea you have off of other people's heads. And like, when you collectively all agree on a verse, that makes it that much cooler than if it's just you agreeing on a verse. And so when I was in college, I think I signed a publishing deal when I was 19.

I don't know how because I was in a cover band playing nothing but terrible versions of Eric Church and Jason Aldeen songs. And there was a publisher there named Ben Vaughn. Do you know Ben? Yeah, of course. So Ben was at this place that I was playing at. And he asked my dad if I could write songs. And my dad said, I don't think so. I don't really know.

So Ben signed me to a very, very, basically just like a developmental publishing deal. Had he said, yeah, he can write songs. Maybe it wouldn't have been so developmental. Maybe, yeah, exactly. He said, I don't know if he can write you. Yeah, and I definitely had somewhat of a leg up because my dad was letting me write with his co-writers. So I was writing with BMI songwriters of the year. You know, I was right with Bobby Pinson and Dallas Davidson and Luke Laird and Ashley Gourley

and Shane McAnon. and these people when I was 19 years old, and they probably were just doing it as a favor to my dad. And then I think it was a one year into my developmental publishing deal that I got my very first cut, and it wasn't with my dad. It was with two other people that had never had a cut before. So I think it was that point where I was like,

maybe I can do this without my dad's supervision or help. And so that's when I started to get more cuts and didn't have a single at this point. But I noticed that these artists were cutting my songs, and they did a great job, but I always wanted to know what it was sound like if it was me doing on the radio. And so that's when I started to get shopped around for a record deal. And I signed my record deal when I was 21 years old. Were you in college during all this, or did you drop out?

Yeah, I was in college, and then... So you're going to class or, I don't know, were you in a fraternity or were you in, like... Well, we had social clubs. They weren't really considered fraternities, but yeah. But you're going to some sort of, whatever, social clubs or groups of friends, and you're starting to get songs cut by artists while you're in school. Yeah. I guess the assumption is that your plan of learning how to play guitar

to get women probably started working around that time. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It just, you know, I don't think my friends fully know how to fully knew how to take it because... Do they know? Yeah, well, I mean, like, all my friends that I had in college are still my best friends today because they were all kind of with me before anything ever happened. And I'll never forget it.

I'll never forget. Me and 30 of my best friends in college went to Walmart the night that Jason Eldine's CD came out. We all bought two copies. And literally just had my song on repeat and had a party. And like, that's the shit that's amazing. I'd still go in. I bought a CD last week because I had a song come out

and I went to Barnes & Noble because it was the only place I can think of. that even has CDs. I think Target, maybe has some Walmart. Target Walmart, yeah. It's like still going and taking off the shrink wrap and looking and seeing your name is the...

It's pretty rad. Did you get to meet Jason Aldeen at the time? Yeah. I remember... I went to his number one party, but it wasn't for my song. But I remember at the album release party, he hand wrote the lyrics

and gave them out to all the songwriters. And so, of all the things I've had framed, that is still one thing that hangs in my house because it's just kind of like where it all began, and he signed the bottom of it. And since then, I've played 150 plus shows with Jason. That's so strange. Came pretty full circle, yeah.

I don't know. And who shopped you around? Was that the publishing? Ben Vaughn took me around. Oh, bad. Ben took me around with my granddaddy's old Gibson guitar that never stayed in tune, and I literally had two songs.

One of those songs being a song that I released That's my second single called If I Could Have a Beer with Jesus. And I'm convinced that that song got me a record deal because I think it kind of showed labels that I could also write. I wasn't just like a face that could just get pitched songs and cut them and have hits, but I think Beer with Jesus was a song that kind of got me a deal. And there were a few record labels that did offer me

the day that I went and played for them. But at the end of the day, it kind of just felt like, you know, big machines sort of just felt like family at the end of the day. And I've been with them for, I guess, six years now. And, uh, before you release anything, were you feeling any pressure to, to sort of, uh, live up to your dad's career? Yeah. And like, also, no one understood why I, everyone thought that I'd dropped my last name, like, legally. Uh, because my name is Thomas Red Akins, Jr. My dad's name is Thomas Red Aiken's. And so when I started going by Thomas Redd, everyone thought, like, you know, are you not proud of your dad's name? Like, you know, this artist, you know, a bunch of people were like, a buddy's just going to write on his dad's coat tails. His dad's probably paying people to get his song. played and my dad was really good at letting me make all my own mistakes you know i mean he definitely

mentored me and kind of helped me at the beginning putting set lists together and you know i remember he was at my very first band rehearsal we were all this miserable um but looking back at it now making all those mistakes definitely led me to where i am now and playing clubs in front of 12 people uh you know you learn what to do and learn what not to do uh in a show setting and now this year you know was our first ever time headlining arenas and so it's just it's just it's just very bizarre. It's so crazy. Do you get nervous?

Yeah. If I'm not nervous, my band is terrified. Really? Yeah. I get really nervous, even if I'm playing like an acoustic gig for like 30 people. Honestly, the more people there are, the less nervous I am.

Yeah, a lot of people say that. Why? I think because when you get into like 20 and 30,000 people, it just kind of looks like a blob. So you really can only see like the first, you know, 50 rows of people, that, it's just more people. Are you able to retain any

like names or faces? Because you have to go to these cities all the time and the same people who are Uber, you know, Thomas Rett fans are still waiting in line to see you the second, third, fourth, fifth time. Are you good at that whole game of communicating with fans?

Yeah, I mean, I can remember faces really well. Names are impossible. Even if I, even if it's not fan-wise, and I met you, I have a really hard time remembering names. But there are definitely fans that have stuck around since the very beginning. Like, there's a couple people in Boston who came to, like, this radio show I did at some brew house that still are in every single meet and greet that I do anywhere within 300 miles of Boston.

No way. So, yeah, it's unreal. Fans, they're incredible. Yeah, they make what we do possible. Totally. Let's go to round here, because I think that's probably the first. first, it's got to be the first, like, really big song that you wrote, isn't it? How did that, at the time, had you already gotten the record deal as an artist?

Yeah, I was actually just finishing my first record. So did that, did that change any style? Because it doesn't, it sounds like them. Maybe that's production. It doesn't really sound like, I don't feel like that sounds like a you record. No. It sounds like a them record. Do you put on, you know, a Florida Georgia line hat when you write for that? Or, you know, or when you're writing for your solo stuff after having that kind of hit, did you feel like, oh, man, maybe I should have gone in this direction? I mean, how does that feel when you have that kind of a hit?

So, like, even from the first record and now, my sound has changed drastically, and I feel like it changes every year based on what I'm listening to. So that being my first record, going back to the Eric Church stuff, I really just wanted to make an Eric Church sounding album. Therefore, I used Jay Joyce as my producer, who is obviously Eric Church's producer, has also produced fricking bands like Cage the Elephant. Just a very rock and roll, badass producer.

I remember going and recording 11 songs with Jay in his basement at the time, and almost doing every single vocal live with the band that was playing in the same room as me and I was like, this is awesome. And then, you know, that record took almost a year and by the time the year was up, I had already changed as an artist.

There were three songs that we passed on because I remember Jay was like, Jay's just not a guy that likes, I mean, I know he loves having hits, but he doesn't want the hit to be a blatant hit. Does that make sense? Yeah. And so there were three songs

that went by on the radio that year that I passed on that became number one singles on three other artists. What were there? Running out of Moonlight was a song that Randy Hauser cut, that I almost cut and didn't.

What was the other one? There was a song that Billy Currington was a song called Hey Girl that my dad wrote that was the number one on Billy Currington. I can't remember what the third one was. But I just remember at that point I was like, look, I want to be cool

and I want to make really cool records, but I also have a wife and I need to buy a house. Yeah. And so that was when, so Jay had, Jay recorded Beer with Jesus and he recorded my very first number one called Make Me Wana. And then I did the last half of the record with a guy named Michael Knox and Luke Laird produced a couple of songs. And so like, it's just amazing going from like record one to now where it's like extremely

progressive for this genre, so much pop influence. When you turn down a record that your dad wrote, is that a weird thing? Do you call your dad and say, listen, man, you're going to have to find some other artists? I mean, that's a unique situation. I don't know many people who are getting pitched songs in a way from there. It used to be weird. I don't feel guilty about it anymore because my dad has written four number one songs of mine. So I feel like he's good to go. Like, I don't feel obligated to, I don't feel obligated to, I don't feel obligated to cut his songs. And I don't feel obligated to put songs that he wrote out as singles. to shortly answer your question about around here.

That was my wife's absolute favorite song, and we argued for forever about why I wasn't cutting that. And I just didn't feel like it was right for me. And now looking back at it, it wasn't. It was a Florida-Georgia line song, got a little bit of money in my pocket, gave me a little bit more cred as a songwriter. And, you know, I still play it in my show.

Like, I do an acoustic little portion, and it's really nice to go play Thomas Rett. the songwriter for my fans because your fans, they listen to the radio and, you know, a lot of, I feel like a lot of people that write the songs, they may not know their names. And so like, it's nice to get out there and be like, hey, you know, these songs that you hear on the radio, I wrote a couple of these. And I think it just gives your fans a whole different insight as to the artist that you are. And around here was just one of the songs that didn't make the cut for me, but I think that every song eventually will find its home, whether that's on the radio or whether it's in,

you know, some back catalog sitting at Warner Chapel. When did you meet your wife? Well, we've been to the same school together since we were in first grade. No way. Yeah. But I don't think we really, we didn't really know, know each other until like six or seventh grade. Wait, so she'd been your girlfriend or wife that whole time? Yeah, we got married in seventh grade.

No, yeah. I'm kidding. Yeah, right. No, we were friends all through high school. We dated very briefly in high school. extremely immature high school relationship. And then both dated other people for like five or six years and almost actually married both of those people.

And then we both broke up with those people and somehow found our way back with each other. We got married when we were 22, so we're coming up on five years. That's awesome. Yeah. So she is, I think of my wife as being like kind of my personal ANR. Mine too. You know, it's like you have to run everything by them.

So that's kind of great that she goes and she can pick out around here and be like, no, that's a huge record. Yeah. Is she, does she do that with all your songs? Does she do that with your personal songs? She has to, right? Yeah. You have to run everything by it.

If Lauren likes it, it usually means that most other women between the ages of 23 and 30 are going to like it as well. Right. Is that just because she's just a, fan of music? She's just a fan, yeah, and I think that when you lose that fandom or whatever is when you start to really over-analyze music and start to look at it as something that it's not. But she listens to my music like she's 17 and in high school, so. Do you know when you write a hit?

I think so, but not at all, actually. Like, I remember when we wrote Die Happy Man, we did this, like, really terrible work tape on the bus at like three in the morning. And actually, I remember, sending it to my, sorry, it was a great work tape. Just to give you guys a clue what's happening, Joe London over here, who did Die Happy Man with Thomas and now Joe's about to jump off of a building because he's angry that his work tape didn't sound good. Okay, so you go and you do this terrible work tape with this shitty producer guy.

Well, the work tape was terrible because I was playing guitar. Right. Okay, okay, okay. But I remember... Sonically, excellent. Excellent, excellent. Right, ready to go.

Scott would actually kill me if you know I was saying this. He might not even remember saying this, but I remember sending it to Scott Warshetta who runs my record label. And I remember the email said, what do you think of this song? And he goes, it's a really great Ed Shearin cover.

Like, I don't think he thought that I wrote it. I think he thought it was a, a deep edge here and cut that I had just put my voice to. And I was like, no, like we wrote this. And he goes, wow. And then he started sending it around to the label. And I remember people at the label were like, dude,

I think this is a career song for you. And I don't think I would ever tell myself, like, hey, I think this is a career song. Like, I knew that Die Happy Man was a hit, but I don't think I never, I don't think I ever knew it was going to change my life the way that it did. Yeah, it changed a lot of people's lives. Yeah, for sure.

Like the guy over here. Yeah, and it's amazing, like, seeing literally every single concert, someone gets engaged in the crowd. Do they ever come up on stage? Do you do that? Yeah, like sometimes if I see a guy, like, sometimes they'll make little signs, but like, hey, I'm trying to propose like while I'm in the middle of a, like, a rock song.

And like, I'll tell people, you know, like, hey, this dude's going to come up and propose to his girlfriend. It's like, it's moments like that that you really can tell that music has a huge connection with people. totally so well first of all die happy man before we move on from that because yeah it was life-changing but also like the acm's you obviously one single record of the year you win top country song for billboard you get nominated for grommies you get like the whole thing um do you feel like you have to live up to that song yeah i mean like is that song is that sort of a thing that um well that

and let's move on, or do you think, does that song now add pressure in any way? I don't think it's pressure, but it definitely haunts me in the back of my brain. Really? Yeah, just because, like, if you look at artists, you know, throughout the years, especially in country music,

like I look at somebody like Tim McGraw or, like, a Kenny Chesney, like, you know, Tim McGraw had, I like it, I love it, I want some more of it. And then he had Indian Outlaw, and then he had live like you were dying. And, like, just this, you know, he has 50 number one songs,

but of those 50, like 20 of them were like game changers. And as an artist, you don't, like, hits are great because I think they just advance your career in a way of, like, people know more of your songs, but I think I'm in the business of wanting to write game-changing music. And I think, I think Die Happy Man was one of those game changers. It's like, you know, how many more singles until you get to another game changer?

And will you ever have another game changer? And if you don't, Everyone will only probably remember you for one song. Sure. And that's kind of terrifying. Yeah, but you have, I mean, obviously you have, it goes like this and make me want to. Sure. You know, you have a lot of hits.

Yeah. You still think, but because that was so big? I think it's because it was so big. And I think even if you were to go ask someone that didn't know what country music, like didn't listen to country music at all, they would more than likely say, yeah, I've heard that song. Sure. Is that the guy that sings that song?

song. You know what I'm saying? You want to have that career where it's like, does that guy sing one of these 12 songs that were massive? Right. Do you feel that with, that that's happening right now with craving you? Because that's a pretty big record. Yeah, it's a big record. It's a big record, but, you know, when I think of songs being massive, like if you're talking about country music today, like a song like body like a backroad where everything lines up, it was a massive hit. It's spent over 20 weeks on Billboard 100. It's been number one on iTunes the date since the day that it came out. It's streaming more than any country song has ever streamed.

You know, when you have all of those elements, that's when I see like big song. Songs that other, songs that are so big that other genres know it just because they've flipped to the radio once or twice. Right, of course. So, but yeah, I mean, you know, I mean, obviously not every song you put out is going to be massive. and hits are amazing and they definitely make your career

a lot cooler and bigger and better but when you have that one song that everybody then for the next five years is trying to copy that I think that's when you know you have a last song. I kind of feel like you did that with the Lee Bryce record

I know I'm going out of time and all that stuff with the parking lot party at least maybe that was just when I was starting to listen to country but it felt like that song was everywhere and that was you know like you've had it didn't even go number one I didn't go number one? I think it died at like five

but who's counting? Right, exactly. Do you watch charts? Not like a lot of people do. I don't even have a media-based password. Right. I'm not allowed to. Okay, I'll send you one. Okay.

Just to cause problems. I get an email from your manager and not going to be happy. Okay, I'm going to list five people, which usually I do five people, but your list is really long. So I'm just going to list people and just tell me like first thing that comes off the top of your head. Okay. Okay.

I'm really bad at rapid fire, but I'm going to give you my best shot. Yeah, it's okay. It's fine. Your dad, red. One of the most musically diverse songwriters that I know. Scott Borchetta.

I think of power. I think that's the first word that comes to my mind. Power? Power. That's interesting. Yeah. What does that mean?

What does that mean? mean. I just feel like he's just one of those people that like anything that I could ever dream up or fathom, that even if it's a 10-year-away goal, I feel like Scott is the first person that is going to be like, I think I can make that happen, if that makes any sense. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah. Um, Eric Church. Just forever badass. Jason Aldean. Hitmaker. That's cool. Lee Bryce. Songwriting to its finest. Cool. Virginia Davis, your manager. Future president.

Yeah, she's very smart. I like this one. Joe London, Sean Douglas, and Julian Benetta. As a trio? Yeah, I mean, like, you, okay, here's the thing. All three of them, Joe, obviously, producer of the podcast,

and Sean Douglas, who's been on the podcast, Julian Benetta, a friend of the podcast. You know, these are all like, they're really I mean they're pop writers and you've embraced them and I think that's sort of part of what makes

this generation of all writers pretty cool I mean we were talking right before this about how you should come to L.A. and do some pop sessions and that it's not so genre based but you've now had hits with those three pop writers in particular so I'm going to ask that again

Joe Sean and Julie So sick. So sick. No, like, it's been really cool because I've told this story before, but there is no reason in the world that Joe and Sean and me should have had any success. You know what I'm saying? Like, I literally was in L.A. for three days, and Warner, I guess, put me in the room with Joe and Sean. And they had written songs together before, but we hadn't. And we wrote a song. that still I think is sick that we haven't finished. And I randomly asked them if they wanted to come on the road with me for three days,

and I can't believe they said yes. And so the first time they came out with me was like to the middle of nowhere, Arkansas, Missouri, and Nebraska. And like the first day they came out was like we wrote Die Happy Man. And, you know, the universe has a funny way of putting people that need to be together. And the fact that, you know, I probably would have never written with Julian if he wasn't, you know, dating my manager.

Right. You know, she put me in the room with them, and I think the thing that all three of them have in common is that there's just zero pressure at all. It's like, if we get in the room one day and we write for seven hours and come up with nothing, but all we did was have a good time, then it was still a successful day.

And I think, you know, when you have people that are not, well, we haven't written a hook yet. Like, we need to, like, go get some coffee and write a hook. It's like, when you do that, you put pressure on the whole situation. I think those three people are just very good at hanging, first and foremost. Do you bring that to other sessions, that vibe? As far as like, I don't care if we write anything. Yeah.

I wish I could say that, but I think I'm a little more high-strung than all three of them combined. That's a really valuable thing, though. If you walk away with a pre-chorus, that's a successful day. If it's a really good pre-chorus, you can come back and work on that. But if you have a... And if you walk away with nothing, you probably strummed a guitar and say, saying some crappy melodies and lyrics, but at least like, you're trying.

It's better than digging ditches. It's better than digging ditches. Yeah. But, you know, I think one of the most massive things I learned from the three of them, that we are not good at this in country music, like, especially, you know, when you do, do a co-write in Nashville, it's like, there are certain writers that I write with that, like, it's not a successful day unless you wrote two entire songs and got, like, the demo vocal down, ready to pitch like that day.

Have you ever gotten a cut that way? No. I don't think so. But I think like when I write, L.A. just has a whole different set of rules to me because when I have done certain pop sessions for myself, like sometimes they don't start until, like you were talking about like 11 p.m.

And like I'm done at 11 p.m. But one thing I did learn from those guys is like taking time to finish a song, like in Nashville, we're just like, okay, that verse is okay, the second verse is okay, the chorus is great, let's pitch it. Like, I feel like, especially writing with Joe and Julian and Sean, it's like, let's take our time, like this verse is really great, so let's revisit it in three months when we're back together.

And I think I learned a lot of patience about songwriting with those guys, which has been really productive. In actually writing, you know, country versus pop records, in your opinion, is there a difference in sort of the, I always call it, like, math, like the, you know, the composition of it. Do you see, what's the difference between, you know, not, I mean, especially in 2017, and the line becomes more and more blurred, but what's the difference between, you know, a pop record and a country record to you? I feel like today they're blending so much. Like, there's certain songs that I hear on pop radio

that I could, that I can hear on country radio as well. Like, freaking, like, uh, galley. Holloway girl or Castle on the Hill. I mean, those are, those are country songs to me. Right. Even some of the Sean Mendes stuff kind of sounds like it could, I could put my voice on it and put it on country radio to be a hit. But I do feel like I do, and I don't mean this in a bad way, but I do feel like the writing in L.A.

Or even just in the pop world is just, is always just a little bit more clever than what we do. And I do feel like in country, we have a, we have a way. way bigger set of guidelines we have to follow if that makes any sense. Like I feel like on pop, it's encouraged to go way out to do something that's completely different and fresh, to do something that is just like out of your mind kind of crazy. In country, we do have this set of rules that it's like, you know, your production can't, it can be kind of far, but it can't be too far.

And your content can be a little bit to the left, but it can't be too far to the left. Because you're still catering to such a wide variety of traditional, country music fans of folk country music fans of pop country fans of of rock country fans and so like when you're all being played on the same radio station everything can be a little bit different but it all sort of has to fit in this line or else you're probably not going to have a hit with that song um i experienced it on a song that me and joe wrote called vacation probably the most farthest looking back at it now it doesn't even sound that progressive but then it was definitely like the weirdest thing that had ever been on country radio and i saw the repercussion

of that to where it died at 33 on the chart, but it's still like the biggest song we play in our set, and it sold more downloads than a couple songs that I've had that have gone number one. Did it shape? That's interesting. So even though it does well, you know, downloads-wise and streaming-wise, it doesn't translate to radio. So is radio just the older format? I still think today, I think radio is definitely the king in country music

because there are so many country music fans that get, they let their radio station tell them what is cool. So kind of at the end of the day, you're sort of at the mercy of the program director. And, you know, thank goodness for those people that do play our music, because without them, there's a whole lot of people that are not, they don't have any idea

what our new single is, you know. I think that country music is a little bit farther behind on the streaming side than the pop side, because if you look at pop and hip-hop, like, you know, Drake has a billion streams on a song and our high stream song ever is like 150 million. That's a massive gap. In the top 40 on Spotify and Apple at any given time,

I think there's maybe two non-hip hop songs. Yeah. So whatever is going on in the streaming community, either younger people are listening to hip-hop primarily or it's a cultural thing, but for whatever reason, there's, you know, why aren't people who listen to country streaming? Is there any logic to that? I just think that country music as a whole

is just way more traditional than every other genre. So you have people that are 40 to 80 years old that have never, they might not even know what Spotify is. Like they're still, you know, even on my sales, even my fan base is more of like 17 to 30.

You know, 40% of my overall sales are still physical consumption. Wow. So like they're going, to iTunes and they're downloading or they're going to Walmart and Target. And so like my streaming is a fraction of how people are consuming my music. And I think that like, I just think people are just more traditional in country music. And they like to stick to what is old and what they know.

Do you ever walk into stores and buy your own CD? I mean, I bought my last record. You have to, right? Yeah. But I honestly think on my new album, I probably will just like check it out on Spotify. That's terrible. You're just like, I don't want to spend, you know, $14.99. Well, it's not even that. I don't care about spending the $1499.

It's the inconvenience of going to Target. Right. When I could sit in my living room and just hit play. Right. You know what I'm saying? Make a cocktail. Right. A beverage. Make a beverage.

A non-alcoholic cocktail. A mocktail. A mocktail. Yeah. So I asked, I asked Twitter, I said, look, I'm about to do an interview with a country a country star, is there any questions that I should ask? Yeah.

And Luke Laird responds. Oh, God. Of course. Because if it's Thomas Rett, ask him who he likes to write with more, Ashley Gourley or Shane McAnally. Oh my gosh. I'm never going to be able to write with him ever again. Both people inspire me to be better songwriters.

Yeah. When I was telling you earlier about there's people in our genre that if you don't get too songs in the day, then your day wasn't successful, and that person is Ashley Gourley. Yeah. Yeah. And he knows that about himself. But it...

It's shocking to witness, though, because he is so fast, and he's, you know, when you have 33 number one songs, you know, that's his method. Yeah. The math works. And I love it, man, because when I'm on the road, I love to just freaking crank him out. You know what I'm saying? Like, and I, Ashley Gourley came out with. on the road twice last year.

And I think of the six total days we wrote, we wrote like 13 songs. Wow. And I cut four of them. Right. So it's like, in some ways it is quantity, ever quality, but at the same time, in that quantity, there are a few gems.

Right. You know what I'm saying? And then the other ones can still get cut by other artists. So like I look at writing like Ashley Gorda, like most of the time when you write with Ashley is going to pay off in some, in some way. Sure.

Yeah. Shane, Shane is the same. Shane is a very fast writer. And when I'm with Shane, my brain always goes a little bit more quirky. Like for some reason when I write with Shane, it's like it's okay to write something

that is not totally mainstream, if that makes any sense. Do you guys text Luke and tell him that he's missing out? Right, and with Luke? I honestly do it. I think Luke Laird is probably my favorite co-write in the world. Yeah. well he's another what's what's interesting is the amount of of producers and writers that listen to a lot of a lot of pop i think the idea of i think people think that countries in the is sort of i would even imagine a lot of country star or sorry country fans would think that this that it's shocking how much country you know stars and producers listen to other genres

genres and are influenced by, you know, 90s hip hop. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's pretty shocking. Someone like Luke and Ashley talk about it, and they both come to L.A. And they're also writing pop. I think people are just sort of surprised to realize how much there isn't really a wall in between the two. Yeah. But I will say this about what I personally think about the majority of the world's view of country music,

which is the main reason I think that country music right now is not one of those things that is global, like pop or hip hop, is that I think everyone still, there's a lot of people that just think that country music is still just nothing but belt buckles and cows. Right. And I just think that's the perception. And so, like, when you are someone that has no idea

what modern country music is, and say you live in New York or live in L.A. and, like, having a farm or having a truck or having cows is not your thing. that's what you think that that music is, therefore you're just immediately turned off of it. But I think what a lot of the world doesn't know is how progressive country is today

and that basically pop is like one of our biggest influences. It's just that we talk a little bit different. If that makes any sense, I don't know. No, of course. I think one of the things that you're doing outside of music that's really interesting is there was, you know, you're about to have a child. By the time this comes out,

you'll probably have had the child. And you just adopted a child. And that's become something that you guys have been very vocal about. Yeah. And that also feels like it's not as common in Nashville. Yeah. Like the concept. Can you kind of go through some of that history?

Because I think this is a really important thing that you guys are doing. Well, just as far as how the adoption happened. and all that kind of stuff. I mean, in the short version, Lauren and I tried to get pregnant for about a year, and nothing ever happened. And so we always knew that we wanted to adopt at some point. Why?

Lauren's mom is adopted, and I think that it's kind of always been on Lauren's heart to adopt, and therefore, because it was on her heart, it kind of transferred to my heart as well. And so my wife does a lot of mission work with this organization called 147 million orphans, and basically they're a organization that helps get clean water and food and shelter and health to an orphanage in Haiti and an orphanage in Uganda. So my wife went on a trip over to Uganda last, or two December ago, and we found out, she found out about this child that basically had been orphans since she was about two weeks old. And so we started kind of giving a little bit of money to help, you know, get this child some, some, some,

milk and clean water and diapers and all that kind of stuff. And so my wife started going back and we started to watch this little girl start to grow up. And when she was about six months old, my wife finally sent me a picture of them together like Lauren was holding her. And I can't fully describe it, but it sort of felt like she was ours. Like I'd never seen my wife like glowing like that when she was holding that girl, that and Lauren called me on the phone the next day and was like, we need to find this old girl at home. and I literally just blurted it out.

I was like, we need to bring her home. I don't even remember saying that. It was just kind of like an instinct thing that I was just like, well, if she needs a home, then we'll give her a home. And so the process took a little bit over a year, which in a lot of terms is shorter than a lot of processes.

But, yeah, we just got her home almost a month ago. What's her name? In the orphanage, they called her blessing. So technically her legal name right now is Blessing Veronica. Wow. Yeah. But we named her Willa Gray.

Akins. That's awesome. Yeah, Willa after my grandfather and then Gray after her brother, Gray. And then as we're in Africa in Uganda figuring out this whole process, bam, you get pregnant. That's what a night in Amsterdam will do for you.

That's so funny. Yeah. I mean, in a weird way, it's the dreams in your... How many kids do you want to have? Do you want to have... I think Lauren would love to have five. Oh, wow.

Yeah, I would be good at about three. Do you have brothers and sisters? Yeah, I have two. I have a sister and a brother. So that's why three is. Yeah, and she has three too, but I think she just envisions these massive thanksgivings and Christmases. It's kind of nice to start, though, with, start with, I mean, they're twins. They're basically twins, you know, or in a weird sort of way of what you call like Irish twins, because they'll be within, you know, within two years.

Yeah, within two years of each other. And it's like, you'll be able to, the hand-me-downs are going to be really easy. Oh, yeah. You know what I mean? We're recycling everything for sure. Yeah, for sure. Well, that's awesome, man. Well, thank you for doing this.

I think you are, when you're saying that you want to sort of set out a goal of being honest to yourself to not shy away from who you are as far as musically being influenced by multiple genres, you know, it's really apparent. You're reaching out to the pop writing community. You're reaching out to the artist community when you have people like lunch on your records and you have people like, you know, some of the ones that we won't name yet, that it might be part of the new album. and having Marin on it

and writing with people from all different generations, you're part of, you're doing in Nashville what we really hope is happening in L.A., which is that we're changing the conversation to not being so isolationist and not being so elitist in a way. And to just say, no, no, it's just good music. That's a good song, so I'm going to release that song because it's good.

Because it's good. And not because it fits a mold. Because if it fits a mold, then I already have it because that mold's been made. So, you know, you're doing something really special. And I appreciate your work and thank you for doing this. Well, likewise, dude. I appreciate it.

All right. Thanks. Don't miss the 51st annual CMA Awards this Wednesday at 8 o'clock, 7 o'clock Central on ABC. See performances by your favorite artists, including Garth Brooks, Carrie Underwood, Luke Bryan, and many more. For more information, visit cMA awards.com. Thanks for listening to this episode of And the Writer Is.

If you want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed, be sure to check out our Spotify playlist, or visit our website at and thewriteris.com. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe to us on iTunes. You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter. And The Writer Is is produced by Joe London, edited by Miles Bergsmuh, and published by Big Deal music. A special thanks to David Silberstein from Mega House Music and Michael White. Here's a sneak peek of next week's, and The Writer is.

It's really cool. So I was kind of floating in between the labels. I didn't know which one I wanted to go to because I really liked everybody at all the labels. And I was talking to Bruce Hinton, the head of MCA, and he said, what's it going to take to get you? What I mean, what is it? You want more money? What do you want? and I said, it would really be cool if Reba McIntyre and her husband manage me, you know.

And he was like, let me call him real quick. He just picks up the phone and calls Norville Blackstock and goes like, hey, I got this kid, blah, blah. So I'd known Narville and Narville a little bit. And then a couple of weeks later, Narville and Reba are driving Huntsville, Alabama for their tour rehearsal. And I get a call and Reba's on the phone. And she's like, hey, Rhett, you want to work with us? I mean, it was like, it was like everything just started rolling. Then I went on tour.

Yeah. That's so crazy. I mean, I've never, I've never been in front of an audience. I mean, I've played in front of, like, yeah, you were doing, like, frat houses and stuff. But I never been with a whole band and our own amps and mics and 20,000 people. And next thing you know, I'm opening for Reba McIntyre. Were you terribly nervous?

I was, like, about to die. Like, I was praying backstage that this was a dream. Like, I was, I wanted to not do this anymore. I was like, I'm going to die. Until next time, this is Ross Bowling.