And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 3: Savan Kotecha

Episode Date: February 13, 2017

From growing up in a conservative family in Austin, TX to executive producing and crafting some of the worlds biggest records, this brilliant writer and businessman has truly earned his status as one of the elite top liners in the industry. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey guys, this is and the writer is with Ross Golan. I've written with hundreds of writers and artists over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life and the industry, politics, composition, whatever. If you ask me, songwriters are some of the most worldly and intelligent people I've ever come across. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs. And most importantly, who the people are who write the songs. I'm co-producing this with my friend Joe London,

who's nominated for a Grammy this year. He records every interview and makes sure we sound like angels. So if you like what you hear, please rate us on iTunes, or whatever your preferred podcast listening site is. In this week's episode, we meet Savin Cotecha. Savin's story is the most unlikely we've come across. I mean, how does an Indian kid from the middle of Texas become the premier topliner in music?

Since we did this interview, Savans had three major records with Ariana Grande. Into You, which was critically acclaimed, side to side, which remained number one at top 40, for five weeks, and every day her fourth and newest single off of Dangerous Woman. As we do, let me set the stage. We're in Sovan's back house. It's a modern house, the kind you see in Architecture Digest.

It's clean. I find that remarkable. considering that he is kids eating in the main house 20 feet away. He's clever, savvy, and worldly. And the decor in his office reflects just that. Anyway, here are some characters and updates you'll need to know for this interview. Evan is Evan Bogart. He's a great writer you'll meet in a few weeks.

He wrote Halo, etc. E-Man is a producer they work with. Ilya and Ali are two of the best producers in the world, and Yohan Carlson is one of my closest co-writer. All three of them with Sovin have deals with MXM, which is Max Martin's publishing company. Again, Max is the greatest writer of our generation. The Billboard No. 1 Songs list literally goes Paul McCartney, John Lennon, and then Max Martin. MXM is the closest thing to the Brill building that our generation has.

If you don't know the Brill building, look that up. We'll get more into that in the future. A couple other notes. Love Me Like You Do is by Ellie Goulding. I Can't Feel My Face is by the weekend. And Zane's album has come out since this interview. Again, if you like what you hear, please rate us on iTunes or whatever your preferred podcast listening site is.

And check out our Spotify playlist for this episode to hear some of this writer's greatest hits. Without further ado, here is. And The Writer is. Welcome to En. And the writer is, I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's guest has sold over 200 million songs in an era when most people don't buy records. He broke a boy band in an era where there were no boy bands. He's been nominated for Grammys to Golden Globes and has done it as a, quote, topliner, unquote.

From Austin, Texas, this musician is a business mastermind and yet Instagram's mostly pictures of bath toys. and the writer is the industry's favorite Indian American Savin Kotachah Thank you that was a very nice intro Yes well you know

I'm really proud of my bath toy collection It's really impressive how many How that Your focus in life is so First of all you're obviously a very public Songwriter And the fact that As

Now that you have a second child It just gets more more baby friendly feels like the wrong word there's gotta be a word to describe bath toys but you know what it is like at night when I get home

and I'm like sitting on because I sort of like after I brush my teeth and get ready for bed I sort of just sit on the floor in the bathroom and like so just meditate and like trying to center myself

before I go to sleep because I found that like it I used to never I used to have a lot of problems sleeping just so much shit going through your head all the time. And you know how it is. You're listening to like the same loop of sounds sometimes,

especially after you're writing and you can't get it out of your head kind of thing. But I found that like centering myself before I go to sleep and just sort of meditating and you know and praying to whatever, you know, just doing that like helps me like calm myself before I sleep. And so when I do that, there's like a bathtub to the right and my son like if I missed his bath time. Yeah. Like, he stacks, he has his bath toys in various positions. And I kind of like social media in a sense that it's also creative. Right. Because I love, like, humor and stuff like that.

And I think that's a part of creativity. Sure. So it's kind of fun to just, like, say something about his bad toys and just throw it out there. I was like, you know. You literally sit in the bathroom and meditate before you go to bed? Yeah. Because that's like your quiet space in the house. And it's also everyone's sleeping.

You know what I mean? Well, when you meditate, it doesn't like, it's not like you, it's not like you're making noises. No, I'm just sitting quiet. I'm just sort of sitting Indian style, quiet. Or just style, as you would say. Yeah, exactly. I guess it's a different kind of Indian. Wait, is that, is that a religious thing to meditate?

No, it's just, I found that it just brings me calm. Yeah. And it's like, yeah. I mean, maybe it's not even meditating where I'm just trying to think of nothing. I'm kind of just being grateful and thinking of everything, you know, and...

Were you always doing that? Before I went, probably for a while, but not always before I went to... Not always, like, sitting on the floor before I went to bad. But I mean, life-wise. I mean, is meditation or something? I mean, because I was brought up, like, Hindu. And so there was always, like, prayers you would say before bad,

and you just, that's just what you're conditioned to do. Like, Christians are... Is it to a deity, or is it to... No, it to a... Well, as when you're younger and you sort of fall for that, like the, it is because you're told you're supposed to do that to be a good person by your parents kind of thing, you know? But then when you're older and you start understanding the world and you have more experiences and I see everything as I see whatever God is, as energy. Whatever, I mean, we define it as energy. I don't think it's a person or a being.

I think it's just this thing that unites us all. I'm like, where do ideas come from? I can't explain it. So the only language I can use is that's what sort of God is. But it's really, to me, like an energy. Yeah. It's not a philosophy. It's not stories.

It's not mythology. It's not, you know, Jesus or Krishna or whatever. It's just whatever this thing is that makes things go. Yeah. Does that make sense? Of course. I mean, it's weird because I was going to go into something more like do the dirty pizza than religion.

But I kind of like where religion is. we'll talk about do the dirty piece later. But, you know, like, the fact that you grew up in a, you grew up in Austin as an Indian American who then finds his way to Sweden, meets a woman in Sweden, marries a Swede. Such, so not a typical story to meet a girl in Sweden. And then ends up, you end up in on, as like a TV personality on X Factor during, in London, during like the prime of that.

Yeah. And now you're in Los Angeles. It's probably the most improbable kind of story. I mean, do you view that path as being a spiritual? Was it like a, was it destiny that you'd end up here? I don't know. It's something, it's obviously a lot of hard work. But I can't, that's my thing is you can't explain certain things, right?

Like why things happen. Like in your life, the things just happened out of, coincidence. Or if it didn't happen, you would have been on a different path. Right. And I remember, I mean, I was so desperate to make it when I was, it gave me like OCD at some point. It's like waiting for it.

Because I would send out demo tapes. You know, I had a book of music industry addresses and I would just send out demo tapes. And then, you know, you get- Did you have the yellow pages of rock or what was that? No, it was. It was a book. I forgot what it was. There was like a music industry class.

Yeah. At night school in my high school. It was just about the music business. And it was strange. Yeah, it was at like a night school that was done at my high school. So after, and I just saw it in like a flyer. But it was a guy that used to be, like 15 or something. Yeah, a guy that used to be like an A&R guy like years ago and he moved to Austin.

It's good to know that you have a job if you ever move. Yeah, exactly. And it was all like adults, people in their 30s and 40s that were just like Austin, like musician, are trying to be songwriters within the Austin music scene. And I was like a kid in there and like, you know. But he recommended some book and I forgot what it was. And it was just like tiny publishers. It wasn't even like the big publishers.

Now that I know, you know, it was things like a little publisher in San Francisco. Right. I mean, nowadays, I'm sure that whole book is out of business. I have a book called The Yellow Pages of Rock that I got when I moved here in 98. And it had direct lines to everybody in the music industry. And it was a published, it was published, it was like a $500 book. You know, and some guy gave it to me because it was the year before. and that's how I got in too

was like I would call each person and my roommate's name was Mike Thompson and I said I'm Mike Thompson from Raw Songs Records which was like my fake record label and I have an artist named Ross Gould and you have to meet and I just started co-calling and I was calling like heads of A&M records

and Interscope because I had their direct lines and usually go to their assistant they would just hang up and I end up with like some random meetings had I remember it like famous music and And so many people said, sure, we'll meet, you know, we'll put you in with whatever A&R person.

And I would just go in and I would be so nervous because I lied my way in. Yeah. That's awesome. You know, like those books at the time, because it's not like you had the internet. You can just like send an MP3. You had to like bring a CD. Bring a CD. I mean, I was in like tapes. I'd send tapes.

You know, like I still have old tapes in my parents' house. They left the room like sort of as is. And I still have the rejection led. and all that kind of stuff. Have you listened back to any of them? I'm so nervous to. You have to. I have some earlier, somewhere there.

I have some, like, earlier demos, but past that point when, like, CDs became thing. Sure, of course. That I had listened to a few years ago that were just like, oh, God. But I still remember some of the songs of that time when I was writing songs in high school. What was your first song called? Do you know? Oh, I forgot the first song.

Oh. Oh, it was called Forever I Love You. That was the song. I mean, that was at least, like, I think my first lyrics were all, was like, Steve the Dog. And, you know, like, I wasn't into, I didn't understand the idea of writing an emotional start. Like, really writing a song. You were already starting from that kind of title isn't that far off from Love Me Like You Do. That's true.

You know, it is. Yeah, it's different, but it's not, you know, it's not that different. I was always like into, and still am. I love like romantic comedies and those kind of like, you know, and chick lit, those are the books I read. And like, and I always for some reason had that thing. And but I was never allowed, I mean, you're an Indian in Texas. You're never going to get a girlfriend unless it's with like another Indian.

But you're not even, I couldn't even have a girl call my house. Like from until I was like 18. Even then my parents would like grill me. You know what I mean? How do you get into music at all? I mean, where, how do you even have the desire to read? any of these books or listening to like you know in beverly hills 902101 oh and it was like brenda you're a lot it was always like in i don't know why i was like felt emotion in that way so i

always so and i think because it was so suppressed i wasn't allowed to like openly feel like like like do the teenage dating thing or anything like that i think so it came out the other way it came out in sort of my fantasies right so at night you know i would take out my sister's keyboard and I would just start figuring out chords and start just writing songs. Did you have to hide playing music then in your house? I think the first

when we first moved to Austin from the D.C. area was when I was 14 and we lived in an apartment because my parents were trying to find a house and they ended up building a house or whatever. So during that time, which was like two years, we lived in an apartment and my room was the family room.

So I didn't have my own bedroom. Right. And so I didn't have any privacy as a teenager or anything like that. So, yeah, I mean, at night, it would be like when everyone's sleeping. And I didn't have to necessarily hide it as, like, my parents, like, what are you doing, playing the piano? But there was a point when it became such an obsession where I had to kind of hide that I was doing it.

You know, my mom would call the choir teacher. I had a great choir teacher who I credit for everything because he was always encouraging when, like, the Indian community and my parents, everything wasn't. And I would skip class. go into the choir room and to the piano rehearsed like they had little like soundproof piano rooms right um like vocal rooms and and i would sneak in there and he would see me he knew i was there and he would just turn a blind eye knowing i was skipping class and my mom would call him and say you know so i've been spending too much time you know on music can you please encourage him to do other things and

he would just humor and say yeah yeah yeah no problem definitely you know and um and so that kind of thing happened but it wasn't have you ever told your teacher that oh yeah no i've met i'm a I saw I'm like, I want to say like three or four years ago. Yeah. Maybe it was four years. Because a good friend of mine's mother passed. A good friend of mine from high school's mother passed away. And she was kind of like from our friend's circle was like the mama bear kind of.

And when she passed away, I went to Austin to the funeral. Wow. And there I saw my, but he's sort of like, you know, he's only knows like classical music. Now he's a choir director, a university, same thing, St. Edwards University, something in South Austin. And so he's not even in that world, you know? Right. But when you go home, is there a part of you that just wants to sort of show that community? Look at what pop music can do for you?

Or is there like a redemption? Or do your parents kind of understand now? They understand that there's success, but they didn't really understand, because they see money and they see where I live and how we live, which is very foreign to them. So that relationships change. I was actually just talking to someone about that yesterday. It's foreign to them because they don't have those.

resources? Does it foreign to them that they're humans that live like this? I think that they're, I mean, they were always well, my dad was a pretty high level guy at IBM, but they're, the way they were brought up, and they're Godrotti and they were brought up, and Godratis are usually the cheapest people on the planet.

So even if you have money, you still are cutting coupons, because your money is for the next generation and the next generation, so you don't like, and the fact that I don't do that more because it's time. It's like, well, no, I just get it. Don't worry about it. My mom, like, my mom would spend $100 to save a penny.

Right. You know what I mean? Like drive to all the different stores and waste all this gas and spend four hours just to find something that's $2 cheaper. Right. You know, and without the thinking of like, well, maybe you could just... Right. Just that time.

But also for us, and as you know, time is income, right? Because the time that we're doing something like for the house or whatever you're doing, that could be spent creating and that creates your income. So I see it that way as well. Don't you see some of that struggle of time management? Is any of that inspirational in how you write? In devoting time, you know, focusing more on the time you do have to write. Because somehow one of our friends Wendy Goldstein, when she said to me once, she's like,

I'm jealous that you wake up every day and you get to write, you get to create an asset. Yeah. You know, and it's, and, you know. I wish you said it. Ross. I'm so jealous every day you get to wake up and create an asset. It's so creepy. I love it.

I think Wendy knows that I do an impression of her now. I think someone told her. It's so good. It's incredible. But wait, but you know what I mean? Like, it's your time management, if all obstacles time-wise are eliminated, are you really focused 24 hours a day on songwriting? Probably not you'd fill it with,

other random things. It's not like nobody can just write 24, I mean, but I do, I would say that like, I mean, I don't write a lot. I'm not, I don't write a lot of songs compared to like how I used to, but more because it's just,

I think maybe I'm getting old and I don't have the energy. What does that mean? Like, I write, I'm more, I guess I do, I do write in the sense I'm always looking for ideas.

Uh-huh. And I shut things down a lot. Um, And I don't like, so I don't even go 30% of the way unless I really feel good about it. So that means sometimes two songs a month for me. But I get to do that because I'm in that environment that I'm in sort of at MXM and I'm only working with a few people and we can do that kind of thing. And obviously a lot of my time is spent helping manage that.

Is your ratio of songs that you write to songs that get cut and release is obviously that's improved because it's the only way you write less. you know plus the songs you have out now seem to have a better shot at being singles are you are you a better writer now is it the access you have from your past catalog or I mean what is it how are you able to create? I would like to think it's because I'm a better writer

I mean access is if something's great it's great and I one thing I learned from when I was like helping A&R stuff and A&R stuff myself yeah like all the myths of politics actually doesn't exist I think if it's like this, if there's an A song and an A song

and the A song is from a guy that has had a lot of hits or you know that they'll deliver the production you're going to go with that rather than the guy you don't know, for example, because delivering a finished record is a big part of it not just, oh, that the song is amazing and you need to make it sound amazing

whoever's producing it, right? But there's too much at stake for you not to try and pick the best song. what you think is the best song and what the company actually collectively thinks is the best song there's just too much at stake now especially nowadays to pick it

because of politics you know there are cases of people like pushing but they're not pushing of they're not like I think what those people do though is they just create insecurity because everyone's still insecure because everything is still subjective right so when people are like no mine has to be the first song

sucks you know the other song you're thinking about sucks all it does is just create sometimes that will work because all you're doing is just creating an insecurity about the other song But it's knocking down somebody else's song

in order for you to have your songs Yeah and that I'm personally against that I think it's just the best song should win And I'm against as you know I'm against the deals of like this has to be the first single

Isn't it hard for you to be I mean if you're in that meeting though If you're going to be talking to a record label about an artist and you know you have a song that you feel like is a hit, you're going to push for that song because that's still your perspective on what the biggest hit is of the bunch.

Yeah, but I don't really know what... I mean, that's the thing. I mean, I think I know what a hit is, but I've also been wrong so many times. So I'm more scared of being... Maybe that's me being in Sweden and being around Swedes too much. I'm more scared of losing credibility and being wrong. Right.

So, I mean, I'm assuming early in my career, I probably would have been like, man, as long as a hit, you know. Right. But I'm also not that aggressive with A&R people. So I've never was like, you're stupid, man. What are you doing? I don't have that personality with those people. But like...

Were you like that? I mean, try to go, I'm just trying to go through some of the chronology here. If you went from, you know, you're in Austin, you're in this, you take this class in high school and then you end up in Sweden, although I'm not really sure how you end up there. I'll make the long story really short.

I sent out demo tapes, got a few responses here and there. I've sent out hundreds tapes. Eventually, one, there's a funny, like, Backstreet Boy story, which is, I guess, for another day. But, like, eventually a producer in Nashville, who I thought was a producer,

but was really just a guitar musician, guitarist, sent me a letter saying that I really, like this song and I do a showcase at the Wild Horse Saloon every year would love you to be a part of that and there's all these record labels and at time I was being an artist I wanted to be an artist I was super naive and thought I could sing and I really can't and so I was like yeah you know awesome and it was like that's $3,000 and you have to give the publishing of the songs you sing there to me I didn't know anything so I was like okay you know I told my parents and you know I bag barred and

steal like to get money and they paid for some of it because they just wanted to shut me up and went to Nashville to this thing a manager at gold mountain management I don't know if they even still exist at the time liked what he heard what he saw and he goes like I have a friend in New York who's a lawyer guy named Joe Serling and he was like I'll send him some stuff and every few months I would finally get in touch with them and Joe was like okay whenever you're in New York just look me up and we can meet and later that summer And wait, how old are you at this point? I think I'm 17 or 18.

Okay. Later that summer, I had some relatives from the UK that got a contract in New York for IT stuff. And so I went to go visit them with my cousin and his wife. And when I was there, I obviously looked up Joe. And then he told me to meet him and he listened to some. And these are shitty demos. He's like repression record on a tape deck playing stuff, swapping, playing it from. You're playing piano.

Yeah. And then like, and not quantizing anything. Right, of course. really um so he was like you know i can just hook up with some meetings i feel like these are in the ballpark so he just called like people at em i think was someone named paul adams at em i'm someone at is it paramount publishing there was a paramount was it there was there um the old bmg clide lebraman at the old bmg a few others and they were just horrible i mean the meetings were just like yeah as bad as they listen to this is what you're competing against and they're

properly like finished demos except for cloud Lieberman. He was like, you know what? These melodies are really good. Oh, cool. And I've got this young guy named Ben Groff that we just hired in L.A. And I need to give him something to develop and see what he could do. Let me send this to him and see what he thinks. But then like months went by, finally Ben got back to him. And in this meantime, I'm just writing songs at home, sending out demo tapes. Then after a while, Ben was like, you know, I think you're ready to sign a publishing deal and him and Clyde. And it was at a point. My dad gave me two years to make a living in music. Otherwise, I had to go to college.

college. So it was a point where like Danny strict when he was back at BMG had to actually call my father and like tell him like no it's real because it was over the two-year deadline, you know. And Clyde Lieberman had to fly over to Austin and come meet my parents and all that kind of stuff. Wow. So yeah. See, and that's why you respect and going, the reason why I want to go through the chronology is because that's why you have so much respect for ANR guys. Yeah. If you come into it as a real writer, then the one. you meet are the ones who get real songwriting. Yeah. And those are the ones that will help usher your career and you end up respecting them more

and so you view it more collaboratively and you don't see it the same. Yeah, definitely. I mean look there's a lot of shit ones out there and most of them are, you know, most of them are just kids that are hustlers and, you know, manage 10 people and see as a way to get their clients cuts and they don't really understand

the difference between something great and something that's just good. Right. But it's that thing you never know I mean we've had But you inherently at that point It's not like you understood song math You hadn't even been to Sweden

You didn't know any of the finishing demos And understanding the quality of a finished song Or not things you understood at that point But you inherently at least And it instinct I think for melody And good choruses and stuff But at that point Learning songwriting from your bedroom

Are you like Are you listening to It was during the baby face, boys to men time. Right. Early Max Martin time. How do you know what a verse pre-chorus choruses at that point if you're hiding it? I think I just understood it. Just inherently.

Yeah, I just inherently understood it. Yeah. I mean, I was able to listen to songs and I want to do a song in that style. And that was back when I was able to somewhat program. I was using Cakewalk. And I was able to like, you know, somewhat get an idea down, you know. And then I went to Sweden and that kind of, that, those skills. went away because it was with all these.

The first time I met real songwriters and producers. Right. That whole idea of like, oh, I'm just writing to Sweden. So Clyde and Ben at the time there was a company called Merrill. So in Sweden there was Sharon who did all the big stuff. And there was a company called Merlin who did basically the stuff that Sharon didn't do or wouldn't do. Because Sharon was there was an exclusive bunch, signed, had an exclusive deal kind of with BMG and Jive. And like, or Zamba, sorry.

and Merlin, who basically was like Anders Bogg and a few other people, they were really good, but they weren't as good as their Sharon guys. And they basically were like, so if Sharon did Britney Spears, Merlin would do Jessica Simpson because Jessica Simpson could get in Sharon.

Does that make sense? And they had a couple of hits, like 90 degrees. So Sharon did Backstreet Boys and in sync. And then people would be like, oh, we got to, we had this billy band 90 degrees. Let's let them to Sweden because all the American Arian artists thought it was just the Swedes. It didn't matter.

I still think they feel like that. Yeah. And they don't know. I don't think A and our guys know the difference between those. Especially back then when Sharon was so exclusive. And the finding guys that ran Merlin used to actually say, there was an email that accidentally was sent to the guy that co-ran Sharon years later where he was trying to get,

the Merlin guy was trying to get investors. And he said, he took credit for a lot of the show. You know, we're doing to do Backstreet Boys and all this kind of stuff. And it accidentally was CCed to that guy. And it became this whole problem. But like they used to just, they were just, you know, they went out and they went out. They got like work.

And so they were looking for a publisher and an admin publisher because they were getting some heat on stuff. So they were talking to BMG. Yeah. And so they were like, oh, you should bring your writers over. And they were like, yeah, we just signed this kid. The deal with it with them and I'm not working out. They went to Universal, I think. Right.

But that's how I got to send to Sweden. So how do you switch over then from like one, you know, how do you kind of sneak across Stockholm to the to. Well, it took, you're 18 at that point. point I was probably 20, I think. 19 or 20, my first year to Sweden. So your sort of collegiate years are busy trying to figure out how to get to Sweden and then you end up in Sweden. So I kept going back and forth.

They kept saying to me because it would be, I would get like a single in Denmark. And it was the first time I made like friends who had any interest in what I do. All my friends went off to university. I was kind of the loser. I was like volunteering at the middle school helping like they didn't have a choir program there because kids weren't interested in. And I helped build a choir program at the middle school. but it was just like

I had so much anxiety and embarrassed going to like the grocery store running into people's moms you went to high school with you're like the loser guy like because I was that more reason why when you go back for you know not I mean the funeral is a sad time to go but you go back to home and there's got to

be everyone knows what you've been doing yeah it's been good I mean not every because you know you know how songwires don't get like you're not like in the press I don't do much press at all so you're you're you're I mean But people know. Facebook and Instagram and Twitter.

And I feel like there's some way that your high school, people from your high school still talk about, like, hey, you know, that's pretty cool that that song was. No, like my friends know. No, that's kind of fun. My friends know and, you know, the ones I'm so in touch with. And, you know, the whole Indian, I mean, the biggest part of my life at the time was obviously raised in a big Indian community.

So the Indian community obviously knows because there's no one in the Indian community. You know, a lot of the actors are half Indian and they're not really like, ooh, they're not, they weren't really raised within a big Indian community. Right. So the fact that I was, I think that's a big pride for the community. Right. But, yeah, so that's kind of, but it also gets kind of weird because then it's all about that. You know what I mean?

Right. And that, I kind of get scared when I go back a little bit. I just stay at my parents' house and I'll go with my wife to a movie. They want to have, like, people over and the whole community to like, we should, we never had a dinner for your engagement. man let's have anything know but then it doesn't become it becomes about like

what I do for a living does that make sense? Of course. So that kind of makes me nervous. I just had a relative recently come up and be,

you know, say, so you make good money don't you? Yeah. I just jumped straight to that. I was like, yeah,

I mean, I haven't seen you in years, bro. Yeah. I know we're related-ish. Yeah, the money thing, the money thing is kind of funny.

You know, I was talking to a few people yesterday because we were just discussing about a mutual friend and and we're talking about that it's so funny when that happens that like you know because you're not we don't

do it for money I mean I was broke eating beans out of a can you know for a year so if I would still do that I'd still do what I'm doing whether you have money or not right but like I mean now I have kids I have to think about that but if it wasn't for the kids you're kind of thinking you just do it

because that's what you love to do it's so hard to do it and to get a break that there's just many easier ways to make money, you know, if you're going to put the same effort and time in, think about that way, you put the same effort and time in in songwriting, if you average it out from when you start and how many hours you've put in, it's probably the wage, the hourly wage is very little if you think, even if you're pretty successful, like, you know, and you have to also think about like an athlete, right? Like, like you have a window.

Yeah, you have five years of playing pro football. And then done. And you, and then when you look at a lifespan, it's actually not that much money. It just can come in a clunk if you're very success. Yeah, and if you're at the very top, you're, you're talking about different money than you are at the box. Well, yeah, there's a difference. I mean, you probably know that now. You definitely will start if you haven't with the year you're having and next year that there's like even a huge difference between like top 20 on radio to there's a huge difference between 5, 10 to 5. And there's a huge difference between 5 and 3. Yeah.

It's a crazy gap. You could think like, oh, I have a like top 15 on radio. then I can like, you know, pay my mortgage next year. I was like, no, you can't. No, you can't. You know. I mean, when you were getting into, when you started getting into those, because you were in Sweden for 10 years, right? Yeah, like 13.

So, well, yeah, went back and forth for like two years. And then it was actually red one. But they were selling, at that point, at least when you were first there, they were, albums were still being bought. And you had access to the projects that were selling. No, it wasn't. I wasn't, I wasn't, the only people that were really explosively big when I started going to Sweden was share on.

but they were so reclusive. I mean, none of them, they didn't work with any outside people. They became super famous in Sweden. They were very, like, they were at the time, no one could get in that circle. I mean, they were working, you know, 18-hour days. They didn't even see the lie day. And when you talk to those guys,

they didn't even know they had made money or anything. They didn't even know how successful they were until it was over. And then they walked out of the building, you know, this building in a place called Freedom Splan. And if you ever go to me and you could go see the building because it's now like a record, indie record label on the studio down below.

It's like, you know, they get out and it's like, oh! And it's like, wow, we're like famous here. We can go to clubs and then they all went and lived their lives because it was a very intense seven-eight years. Max, Rami. Rami and Carl and Carl and all those. Well, no, Carl wasn't a part of that. I was too young. So me and Carl were sort of the same generation.

By time we sort of got our shot and started things happening, that Sharon was way over. Yeah. So, because it sort of ended after that third Backstreet Boy, the Blackstead. and Blue album, which was the last, I think that was the last project. Why did it, why did it end? I guess there's different theories, but they're all, usually, we'll say, when Dennis Pop passed away, the fun was done and, you know, and they were doing it for so long and so many, and again, they were people that didn't write a lot of songs.

I mean, the songs that they wrote for all those years, they would spend a month on, on a song. But they had nine songs on every album. Like, how was, there aren't enough, there aren't enough months for that to be, I know that people say that. There was a group of eight of them. There was a group of eight of them. Yeah, so I guess that's how that average is out.

And it's not, not every song took a month, but it would spend a lot of time. No, I know. It's just crazy. I mean, it wasn't even not. I think the first backstreet album wasn't like, it was only like four or five. And then the Britney album was like, what was it, the first Britney album? I think there was like sometimes maybe one more time. And there was like, crazy. Crazy.

There's probably like five, you know. And then, you know, and I think they ended up burning themselves out. And then they all wanted to do separate things to work with different people. And then they all built. their own teams and that's sort of when I started breaking then I slowly you know got into some of those teams here and there

and you know we would have success especially with in the UK and then eventually and everyone in town and the whole community it was like they were like celebrities in the sense of like oh I know someone that knows Andreas Carlson or I know someone that knows someone that knows Christian on the Indian and maybe once in a while you'd run into one of them

because you were having lunch with one of their friends and it would be like this big deal that oh god that was Andreas Carlson you know that was Max Martin. Is it weird to be that guy? I don't really see myself as that guy. But I also, because I'm in a bubble, I'm in the same situation. Now you're in that bubble, right.

Is that we're in this bubble. I never realize how, because especially when you're with sort of a legend like that whose bar is so high. Like I think this past year we had like, I had eight songs on top ten of radio. And at the end of the year, I felt like shit because on my mind and breaking to top three. Right. You know, and I had a really, or like, focused and do well. Right. And I was really bummed out.

Yeah. Because you're in this bubble and the bar is so high that you don't see that like, wow, what about all the other stuff? Sure. You know, so you really like, and it's, and the only way. So many of the things I wrote on the things for us to talk about, you're touching on where it's like the idea that I don't see how you can possibly celebrate every success when you have five songs on a, on top 40. at any given time. How is there any possibility that you can celebrate

the peak of a song? You don't celebrate. Because you're constantly pushing for that next one to beat that last one or match that last one. There's no, I think what happens and I've been learning now.

Now I understand the Sharon thing and the mentality that they had was like you just, it's just adrenaline because you love what you're doing. If you're doing it for success, then you'll really just celebrate and you'll stop and be like,

woohoo! And then you made it and then you're done. And then it passes by because we're in a really interesting business if you think about it we're chasing something that will never achieve because a hit song

You know There's always another hit song It lasts It lasts for like a what Like a week or two You know if a big one lasts for a few months And then it's done And then there's like 10 other songs

That have replaced it And you're no longer You no longer have a hit song Does that make sense So it's this constant like It's short period of time So how do you I don't understand

And that's what tortures me and keeps me up at night and I think people that are obsessed with it and I think most of us are is that like what do you, and my wife asks like because she's so out of the music she doesn't, you know,

out of an entertainment business, she has no like, she doesn't even like it necessarily, you know, she's like, but when's the end game? What is the end game? But there is, I don't, because, you know, a hit song is a great feeling

but it goes away and then there's other songs your place. And then when you have a lot of hit songs, you start getting addicted to the feeling of that song. Having a song, always at the radio, whatever.

And then when you don't, you actually get in this really dark headspace. Yeah. You know, like, it's a weird thing. And it's like, but I don't know. The idea of acting like you've been there before, I hate that. Because every time you have a song, another song that's a hit. You know, it's that song's story. Yeah.

And there's, in Nashville, I don't care if you've had 10 number one songs. that year, every single one, the PRO, you know, BMIR ASCAP and your publisher is throwing a number one party and the artist shows up and everyone goes and celebrates the success of that song. And it just doesn't, in this case, like, I'm, you know, I'm, yesterday I was with all the people I wrote, same old love with. And I hadn't seen a couple of them since we wrote the song. And I was like, hey, congratulations. congratulations to you too

and then we continued on yeah you know that's it but it wasn't like you know there's I think people assume that that there is like this reward and and

the reward is more like nice I'm continuing to reach the potential that other people see that I'm supposed to reach or something like that you continue you're able to do it that you're able to like do it like that's my thing you know like especially nowadays

to be a able to just make a living, be comfortable, and that allow, because my whole life has now been shaped around allowing me to just write songs. Sure. You end up, especially when you start having kids and stuff, you end up everything that goes on in your life, the conveniences that the money buys you, is the only conveniences to then allow you to just focus on writing songs. Right.

Does that make sense? Of course. So my whole life is built around that. Everything to not, so I don't have to think about other things, I can just go to studio and write songs, because that's the obsession. But you've also had a few things this year, going back one thing. You've had a few things this year that you've never had before. Somewhat credibility.

What was that? Credibility, but to a point. Maybe. I mean, Can't Feel My Face and Love Me Like You Do both got nominated? Or what is it? I know, Love Me Like You Do got a Golden Globe nomination. It got like the movie thing. Can't Feel My Face is record of the year.

But they don't give that to songwriter's record of the year. Is that weird? I know. I don't give songwriters for record of the year. They don't give, they don't give songwriters if you have an album with the year. That's the part. That one pisses me off. I agree.

It's like, come on. You see, I don't know if you ever see. Every year I tweet the same thing. Oh, really? But we should talk to the cat. I'm a governor that I'm like one of those voted, but I never went. I never had time to go. That's the other thing.

It's like, how do you be an advocate when you don't have time? Because you're trying to, all my time is focused on trying to do better work. Right. And it's hard to be an advocate. But that, I mean, Evan, Evan, really good with that stuff. Yeah, we talk about that a lot. I mean, I think... Because you can change it. If enough of us in those

goes to those meetings and hey, this is like messed up. Like why... Like the guy, no disrespect to mastering guys, but the guy that masters the album gets a Grammy, but the people that actually wrote the songs and some of the lyrics and melodies, you actually do get a Grammy for an album of the year? When I understand record of the year, it's the recording of the song and I understand song of the year, because that's the writing

of the song. But the minute that producers started getting songwriting credit, it felt weird that when I do all the vocal arrangements that I'm not part of the production. And then when you get to album of the year, the fact that that is a collection of records, but it's also a collection of songs because the album has, because nobody is releasing covers anymore because there's no incentive. So without being releasing any covers and it's all original content, then that original content should all be included in album.

And I don't know why they think that that's okay to not do that. I mean, historically it makes sense. Yeah, well, I guess what you're saying with the covers and stuff like that. It makes sense why. And it's hard to change it because, I mean, it's a lot of the people who are on the governing board were around in the 60s, 70s. But there's enough of us now that we could probably make a change. If we put the effort in, it's just about having the time. But we're all too busy. With all the other things that we're advocating for songwriters, it's like it's hard to make that another thing.

I know. But then it's also dull for vanity that part. I guess it's more important to make sure that the next generation can earn a living than us get trophies. Sure. Right. When you put it out that way, I guess it's more important. It goes down the line of priorities.

When you mentioned, like, having lunch with somebody and how, like, that's, or even just meeting those people. Like, that's sort of how we met. And I don't know if you remember that. Yeah, I remember we had breakfast at LePan. Yeah. But that's, like, the first time we have this lunch. And that was, like, for me, I was, I'd been getting some cuts.

Yeah. But at that point, I don't think I had any, like, reputable singles. And maybe not, I mean, maybe I had a Bieber song and, like, a Nicky Minaj song. Yeah, I had, like, a couple out, but not, like, anything significant. So at that point, you had already had a lot of hits, like, compared, not compared to now, because now you're coming out with eight hits a year. So it's a different ratio. But I remember you saying things like how significant something like,

Sheryloyd and One Direction are to a career versus, you know, Brittany and Usher, because if you, if you break an artist, how much more valuable that is to a songwriter than if you're part of the pantheon of somebody's catalog. Yeah. That's why I never, we've spoken about this before, and I never understood, like, the, you know, when the whole town gets into, like, and I understand why people do it and have to do it anyway. but like the focus of like when there's like a Rihanna album

and everyone's writing for Rihanna right I was like you know we've spoken about this a bunch of times and I never understood that everyone's chasing I think okay okay but then who's doing that other thing maybe I should do that other thing because I haven't got a shot and I've and it was actually Max who kind of told me that you know early on that when you break an artist you'll see things change sure you know because you know at the time when I had a couple hits with Britney like she was going to have hits

anyway. Rihanna now, the historic Rihanna is going to have hits anyway, right? Whether you or I

write a song for Rihanna, Maroon 5 will have hits anyway with you and I. So it's not going to be, you're not going to necessarily move the needle for your career.

It's just going to be income and the fact that you wrote a hit. But a lot of times those bands are so defined in what they do and there's sound that you're not also going to get other artists going,

hey, I want a song like that all the time, right? Because nowadays artists have a lot more power than when I first started. You know, there's a lot more artists are in charge of their careers. The pop artist. It's kind of shifted a little bit more to that.

So you think working with, I mean, I guess when you got in with Ariana and when you got in, even with the weekend, considering he had obviously a lot of success, but not as a pop artist. I mean, yeah, weekend gave us, Ariana gave, the, Ariana's success is what got us the weekend, like, hands down, the fact that we work with Wendy and then love me harder, which she, really pushed to get him on and then he saw what a real hit felt like to his career because they used to think they mean they he had great music before and he's super talented but then you know I remember the conversations we had with his people like they thought like wicked games was a big big hit but it was like 32 on rhythmic radio you know what I mean and now he obviously knows a

difference because the access he has and the way his life has changed we just saw him yesterday and he you know he's the sweetest guy and the way his life has changed sure um You know, it's a big difference, yeah, but we can break an act. And even though One Direction is not like a credible act, but the way the meetings that I had with the industry, because whether or not all the boys recognize the development I did for that band from day one, everyone around it that was in charge of it, they all saw it,

and that spread within the industry. Right. The tremendous success, obviously, that changed. Is that why you pulled away from them, or is it just sort of like, people, they grew up and they kind of wanted to do their own thing? Because they want to go and try to be more credible. Yeah.

I think like a lot in the very beginning, and I'll take blame for some of the stuff in the very beginning. There was a manufacturer boy band. That's what it was. They weren't all like hustling musicians trying to make it. They were on a TV show. And we purposely, and I was open about that. Like you're going to hate the music that you do in the beginning.

Like I was open about that. You know, you're 17-year-old, 18-year-old boys. You're not supposed to like the music that a boy band does. Historically, that's just not how it's going to go. And that's what happened. But it blew up. up. And I think yeah, by album three, not all of them, but there was

definitely one or two, one especially that was like kind of bitter about the fact that, you know... And he was not the talented one, and he wasn't a singer, and he wasn't the star, and you know which one I'm talking about. And he then started having something against me and Romney and

Kron against that process, I think. And, you know, maybe we could have been more inviting on the creative process during album two and not been so authoritative, but, you know, What happened was also that I knew them from day one when they would cry on my shoulder when stuff, because I was with them throughout the show and developing them. No one knew what that thing could be or who could sing leading and what that was.

And that was me helping shape that thing. And especially the first record. You know, the label wanted, there was a Stargate like Rihanna Reject Dancy song that they really wanted to do. I was like, no, that can't be the direction. You know, because they were like my little brothers. I had a lot invested in my time and emotionally in these kids and with their parents. everything. Because of the show.

Because the show, the UK show is really intense, and you become family. It's three months. And I love those kids. I would always pick up the phone, if I even call, even that one that, you know.

And I remember even with Julian, you know, I had to convince some of them that you should go in with you. You know, he's really good. You should really go in with him, you know. And I think like,

and when they did, I'm really happy for Julian and all that because I think what he was able to do because he came from a different perspective. Like I came from these are kids from a show and I'll tell you guys what to do because I you know in the beginning that's what I had to do

and I think for me it was hard to then see them in a different way and I think they needed especially like a few of them needed people to see them in a different way. And it's kind of hard for me to see them. It was hard for me to adjust and see them in a different way and be like yeah I'll give you musical

yeah you have musical credibility to me because I already had a bunch of hits with other people and for me and I and you guys didn't know what you were doing in the beginning so why for me in my mind now when I'm looking back I'm like I'm sure my process was like but of course they don't know what they're doing what they're saying like they're just from a show

you know what I mean right and and I was wrong I was wrong to think that way because they're they've grown into especially some of them have grown into really knowing what they're I mean Harry is a fantastic writer we did that song to get Harry and

Yon and I did that song and it was shocking how He's goody. But these kids have now been working with the best writers and been on tour with the best artists and throughout the world. And, you know, when you have, your developing years, spending those four or five years listening to amazing writers if you're open-minded. And, you know, these guys all should be really good. Yeah. I mean, yeah. And at the point, it was like, you know, and, you know, it's also this social thing where I had a baby during the second album. I couldn't be around hanging and going on tour. with them and doing that thing. And if you don't know how to do you have, if you don't know how to do you help like start an artist from the beginning and your guys are close, you'll understand when they go on tour is a lot of other people. They start meeting other artists, meeting other people.

And there's a lot of people that want to go get in there to be in your position. And that happens. So that becomes like this mind fuck. So, but with Harry was really interesting because Harry always from such a album too, you really saw that he's a fucking good writer. Yeah. Like we did a song together for the third album. The only thing we did for the third album.

And he was just this song happily. which I'm really proud of, and I think he is as well, that he was, it wasn't like that thing where you're, like, writing down for the artist. He was fucking great,

and, yeah, ideas. And so that was cool to see. But I think what, especially with one of the particular members, it was hard to see that person and take that person

the way he wanted to be seen, I think. And he became the loudest voice of the group. And then there was a point why I just told the label, it became sort of unhappy for me to feel that, like, why is he doing that?

So to me, it became this really heartbreaking thing that I felt like, I think he wanted, they wanted to move in a different direction, and I felt like I don't want to lose sleep over this. And I really felt like I can't see it in a different way than I've seen it. And so I think they made the right, it was right for both of us, put it that way,

to not continue creatively being doing that thing. That gave you time, first of all, cutting out things, that are negative as a songwriter is essential. There's an artist that's out right now as a song that's doing really well worldwide and I was supposed to executive produce it and I spent three weeks and it was just a toxic thing to be around.

It's hard to, right? When you cut it, you have to be able to say that the loss of revenue will be gained in another project and just having that faith in your talent is essential. It was hard to let go because I think it was so big and they're everywhere and every time I go to a store

I would see their face and it was a little bit heartbreaking but again and it's not for everyone like me and Harry always stayed in touch and me and Zane at the time were always in touch

and it was like it was like it was and that so some of them is always like this loving relationship and obviously I brought Harry into our camp working with Yohan

and you guys start working and it's just they write great music together I'm so proud of him and I know I haven't heard Zane's solo stuff but I've heard it's really good

have you wanted to work on Or is it now that train has sailed? I think if they, if any of those boys, if they ever reached out to me and wanted help, I would in a heartbeat do it. Yeah.

Just because of loyalty. I wouldn't, you know, if Zane ever said, look, I need your help, but can you come listen to stuff? He doesn't need me from what I understand. It's really good. And I had one conversation with him about,

but I don't think they want to go to me. I don't think, I mean, maybe Harry's a different thing because we're kind of closer and we'll see what he does if, you know, of all that stuff. But like,

I understand, probably until the weekend, I understand why Zayn wouldn't think. Because they all, so only know me as the guy that did like their early stuff, which is not the stuff that they're proud of. Even though they know I did other stuff.

I mean, you know, Harry understands that because he understands the music business and he knows who right. But the weekend gives you a credibility to allow you to, I mean, it opens up such a big door. I mean, like you said, Ariana opened the door for the weekend.

And then the whole letting the one direction thing kind of go was a year of kind of, trying to find myself again. And sad because it was super intense few years. And I lost a lot of confidence during that time. And I think it was Max helped me get out of the funk. But then, yeah, then Ariano sort of walked into my life. How did Max help you out of the funk?

Just being like a great mentor. And, you know, just I wasn't inspired to write so much. And then I felt what I was writing wasn't any good. Because, you know, also when you come from a success like that, the bar again, all of a sudden gets raised. right so anything to do that's not that big is very difficult yeah but I also knew I didn't want to

and I also noticed that at the time that I was seen as like the boy band guy and I didn't want to be seen as that because I knew that I could because my natural instincts are actually more like rhythmic pop I grew up on like the baby face and all that that was the music that I love that's the music that I listened to so I wanted a chance also

show people what I could really do and once I got rid of certain things and I made some bad decisions I did a few things that I did because I could, not because I should. You mean the executive producer stuff? The stuff where, like, you used one of my songs? Yeah. But in hindsight, you know, I was listening to all these voices.

No, but honestly, look, for that project, and we don't have to mention names, like, a lot of people believed in that project. Everyone was trying to get in on that. Like, whenever there's the new artist that has a platform, you know, people want to be involved. It's not like you were doing it. alone. Yeah, but in hindsight, again, hindsight, it's always 2020, but I realized why that didn't work,

why it wouldn't have worked, and why... Why doesn't, why do some projects like that work? I mean, when there's all the resources a label puts behind a project. Maybe just music wasn't good enough. Maybe I just made the wrong decisions and direction. The band didn't really want to do that thing, so it wasn't genuine. Right. And, um, what they want. But like you just said, though, one direction didn't really want to do it in the beginning. Yeah, but that was a different thing because they were, at the time it was a very manufactured. It was, you know, that was going to be packaged and it was like, you know,

it was a thing and it already had so much momentum. The other thing we're talking about, I think, the show wasn't that big. Right. The other thing we're talking about. And, you know, what makes you beautiful was, you know, I didn't recognize that at the time, but now when I hear it here and there,

I realize, wow, that was a pretty good song. You know? Yeah. And, you know, funnily enough, it came from a genuine place where the other person's first single, they were trying to make me make a new one direction with those people. So it wasn't really from a genuine place. Right.

You know what I mean? Like, what makes you move if I wrote that about my wife? So as cheesy pop as that is, it was still from a, there was heart to it. Where the other thing was trying to manufacture, trying to have like a,

trying to find a schick, you know? I think I've learned now throughout the years that that doesn't work. And every once in a while I forget about that, and I'll be like, yeah, but this is so fun, it could be one of those things that becomes a thing.

And it never works. No, because those things come from, that thing has to come from a genuine place. If you're going to have hit the quon or like. Exactly. And I've tried many times and failed. And now I've really started learning, okay, every time I catch myself a little bit now when I think I have this funny concept and would that be funny, you know. Right.

But I think that. There's a fine line between clever and funny. Exactly. And it's hard to, you know, I think when you have, you know, it says so much about someone like a Megan trainer to have follow-up singles because she comes out with a single like, you know, a single like, you know, all about that bass when it comes out, if it's, if that comes from anything less than the most genuine place,

that does not work. No, you're right. You're absolutely right. It's like, yeah, people can feel it through the song somehow. But no, it was, it's, it's, so when you jump to Ariana, though, it's like, I mean, it's, because that's sort of the next big thing, right? Yeah. So I had like, there's something in between.

No, I had a quiet, 2014 was kind of, or hit-wise, like, 2013. was like a very transit. That was one sort of the end of run direction for me. I did one thing for one of their albums with Harry. You had the Bieber single. Yeah, but that was sort of from the year before. So like 2012 was a lot of... So you're thinking in 2013, you're like,

I'm a terrible songwriter. I'm a terrible songwriter. The only songs that I have are from last year. Yeah, you know that feeling. And then it took me a while to even feel inspired to right. We had just moved to L.A., had the baby adjusting my family to that. And I was doing way too many meetings.

I had management at the time where I just shouldn't have, that was the typical, you know, over ambitious, like, going, yeah, you should get a record label. I was offered, like, label deals and all this kind of stuff. I just said no to my gut.

kept saying no. And I was spent, like, every day in meetings rather than creating. And that's one of the things that Max always says, and he's been right about, was always like, you know, he gets all these label offers all the time.

You can just imagine what Max wanted to. Right? And all he wants to do is write and produce and do that well. And that's a very Swedish thing. It's like you do one or two things well. In American culture, we get this thing. We want to be sort of greedy and like do things because we can rather than because we should.

Right. So that year I learned that valuable lesson, do things because you should, not because you can. Like, I can get a label deal, but should I? Right. I can EP all these projects, but should I? You know. But you act as a, and this is that balance where you act as an A&R guy. And at MXM, you act as a publisher.

you act as a manager for all these writers because MXM's 15 writers not including Wolf Cousins or whatever but MXM where you're at you're involved in so many of the writers

careers and everyone gives each other's input on songs and there's such a collaborative aspect that it's not like you're not taking on the executive role you're just doing it in an environment that's as controlled as possible. Exactly but I'm not also being

paid to do that. That's more out of just like these are my friends I believe in people and I want to see good music out there. Like, you know, with like for your instance, your sake with Johann Carlson, you know, before we finally got you guys to get, before that happened, you know, we were trying to find him

someone that, because he's such a great musician and piano player. You know, in my head, what I think one of my good talents are is sort of, yeah, seeing potential in certain things and see what's missing kind of thing. And like, You're the perfect melodic and lyrical sense, especially to match Johann Carlson. It was like the perfect marriage, I think.

Would you agree? Yeah, I mean, it's true. And your strengths and weaknesses are like, and to find that, like, even though again, I have no financial gain from that, but I love Johann and I love, I believe in what we were, when me and Max and Martin Dodd sat down in the house, Max was renting like on Franklin Avenue

when he said, okay, I think I'm ready to do a publishing company. Will you come in and, you know, let's try and make something great? I believed in that idea because I know that the whole, if there's a high bar of quality, people are very collaborative and you think things through as well. Like don't just do things to do things. You know, don't hook, you know, the rider up with something

that doesn't make sense just so that person's busy. It's okay if that person's not doing anything for a week. Let's find the right thing. I believe in that. And I think when you do it and then you can do it on purpose. Then it's just not by chance. It feels like a safe place. Yeah, I hope so.

On all levels, I think as a writer, it feels safe because you can take a risk. And if it's not right, you move on. But you don't feel like, you know, it doesn't feel like you get one shot and you're out. No, no, no, no. Even like once you're sort of in that community, people are encouraging for you to continue to write and continue to do. No, definitely. Because it's, you know, it's a... And then again, this is, I guess, the Swedish thing.

And credit to Max and the philosophy, I guess, that Sharon had was just that obviously we're a lot more. open than Sharon was, which was really a closed bubble. But, like, you know, and watching what everyone else was doing with publishing companies and what other producers and writers are doing and learning from those mistakes. Sure. Because it isn't about quantity. It's about quality, especially nowadays, you know. And it's about trying to write a hit song or a great song on purpose rather than just

spitting it out. And some writers, that's just their process. They have to be able to do that. And that I totally understand, you know. But you write from that strategic place. I don't know if there's another writer who has the ability to say, this artist needs this kind of song, and you kind of hear,

you're thinking of it from like a tempo, a lyric, you're going through sort of the strategy of what kind of song this artist needs before you even go in and write it. And then I feel like you have the ability to capture that. And that's, I think, probably the most, the most unusual talent you have. Oh, thanks. I feel that's probably my big talent. Thank you for saying about it. But it's like writing from a strategic aspect. And it's like taking song math to a different level.

I guess my question is, so, you know, lyrically, you've always been somebody who writes conversationalally. Yeah. It's so difficult to make something conversational unique and to make something not seem, you know, to pull that into a song. and you're going into this, you're going to songs as a strategist. Yeah. And yet you're coming out with a song that, you know, it's still somehow,

it's conversational, but still pushes that limit. How do you stick with Love Me Like You Do? Lola Love Me Like You Do. Touch Me Like You Do. And how does that work? So I feel like if anybody else does it, it just doesn't seem, you know.

Just a lot of time. I mean, to give credit what Craig do is when we walked in, me and Maxich did, to love me like you do when Ali and Ilya had the skeletons of it. So Ilya, not to touch me like you do, but to love me like you do thing, was that's what he was singing. Yeah.

He came in, they had that thing as a skeleton. And I think one of my talents in sort of what you're saying is that that's why I like to meet artists before I write for them. Because I always get, my ideas come from movies and visual media and reading. And I pretend I'm in that character. And that's why I always say,

like if I've ever had to live again, I would want to go into theater, you know, because I feel like I have an act of getting under the skin of something. Sure. And, you know, that was, you know, knowing what the movie was and knowing that had to have heart and this girl that's been, that's in love with this guy and has to accept his sort of perversions, you know, and just being so in love and you just have to, you just got to accept each other for who you are. And, you know, so when he had, he was singing, love me like you love me like you do.

the chorus, you know, I had to make that make sense. But it took a lot of time. We're talking about two weeks on one lyric. Right. You know, and it's so, it's such a simple lyric when you really break it down. But it's so interesting that that's the, yeah, that takes two weeks. It's like, you know, people don't realize that. I mean, it wasn't 24 hours a day, two weeks, but it was like, it was like shaving off the

bad, and like keep challenging. And that's our philosophy. I make sense. You know, continue challenging until the end. Right. Is there a way to make despair? It's a way to make it's a little bit more special. Do you have any songs that you were just like, this is, this is a piece of crap. I can't believe it was so successful. Or is there ever a moment where you're like,

it really only took a half hour to write the song? You're like, yeah, maybe that's it. Yeah, sometimes. I think some things can come quicker. You know, I don't believe that it has to take two weeks. Obviously it doesn't. Sure. But some things are just quicker, you know?

You know, I think, like, what can I say as a song? I mean, I take a lot longer, like, lyrically. Right. Because, like you said, it's hard to do. I think the conversation, I think it's still have some juicy lines here and there. Right. Because that's what takes long to me. I think the melodic thing, we have such talented people around.

So when I'm doing a melody, Max can come in and, oh, maybe that should do that. And then, or Peter Svenson or vice versa, or all come into their room. So luckily, we've built this thing where, like, it's pretty, I think melodically is pretty tough to beat, you know, because there's such good people around. And then lyrically, it's just spending time. I think that, I see that as, like, sort of manual labor. Sure. Lyrically. I mean, it has to come from the heart.

Yeah, it's really the hardest part. It's really, you know, and I think a strong lyric to me in pop music is a lyric that doesn't get in the way of the melody. Right. But still doesn't bore you. Right. You know. Well, and if you're talking about, you know, the full circle thing from where you started in Austin as a suppressed India and American, you are probably one of the more sexual lyricists. Yeah, probably.

You know what I mean? Like, are you living your life through the songs? Oh, absolutely. my wife sometimes I'm like, what the fuck are you saying? Right. Like, where does this come from? You know?

I don't know. I guess so. It just comes from, yeah. Are your kids allowed to listen to pop music? Yeah. My son is actually funny. Have you met Milo? Yeah, yeah.

So he loves pop music. He loves what's on the radio. And I can always tell when something's actually going to work because he's a three years old. So instinctively, when he wants to hear something again, you know that it has something. and funny enough I really thought back together

the more I think it would work like everyone around in the studio thought that would work right and in hindsight I was talking to Ali and Max by that that was the one song over the summer that he didn't want to listen to again interesting

from like you know can't feel my face to like you know even like cool for summer he really for some there was something about to his ears that he wanted to hear it again and he would say and he would like cry because he doesn't know He wouldn't know how to express what song it is.

You know, the song, I don't know what song. And he'd like, no, that song. And I'm like, no, what song? I mean, now he can communicate a little bit more. Sure. I can't feel my face when I'm with you. But, like, and he'd just hear me. He'd come in the office here when I'm working or going to mix or, you know,

trying to get the lyric right. And he'd just come in and he'd hear it. And then sometimes he'd dance around. Right. And sometimes he'd just sit and then he'd just leave. Right. When he comes in, dancing around, he wants to hear a song again. or if, you know, I get the MP3

of the latest bounce and I'm listening to it in the kitchen because I sometimes want to just see because my wife isn't a big pop fan so if she likes something, then I know that there's something. And I don't ask her, I just wait and see if she says something. And then he now is my thing. Like he'll say,

yeah, I really, you know, he'll say, can I hear that again? That song again. And that was a song I thought he would like because you would think a kid would like it's a bouncy, fun melody. He never got it. He never asked to hear it again.

I would love. to spend the next hour and a half talking about things like gun control and Trump and all the world the world's issues because I know how political you are about that and how political you are about you know especially songwriter rights and and and you're an advocate for all kinds of of you know both artists and and writers and producers and I'd love to hear more but I know we don't of a lot of time. And it's like, I think what you get out of that, that I'm here. I'm obviously doing well as a songwriter, but I'm still asking you questions because

whether you realize it or not, you've achieved this level of, you are like those share-on writers. I don't see it that way, but thank you. No, you should. And you guys have developed the Brill Building of 2016. I mean, you guys, you are a part of a community. that is consistent and you continue to challenge the music industry as a whole. And you should be so proud of that.

And I hope that you take some time to celebrate and at least make sure you have dinner or cheers to you while your kids are in a bathtub. Because it's such an accomplishment. And so many people are trying to get to where you are, where they can hear multiple songs on the radio. still every other song is something you've been a part of. But you're feeling that now, especially, right?

Yeah, I feel, I'm, and I'm fortunate to have enough people still remind me of it. I think it gets scary when you get to a point where they just expect you to maintain, people just expect you to have hits. Yeah, that's a tough thing. That makes you, that makes it harder.

That's one of the reasons why, you know, I don't write so many songs. Right. Is that you get, you get, so afraid. You know, the downside of it, and I'm having that now, is I haven't for a long time. And actually, me and Max were just talking about. He told me, and he was like, you should just do that. Because it's been a long time

where I've just written to write a song. Sure. You know, it's always been... And it's hard to do, too. You'd have to take some time to do it. You'd have to write a couple shit songs. Yeah. And it's scary because you feel like there's this pressure now that everything has to be good. But in that environment, we feel safe. But, like, I'm going to be doing that, like, this first part of the year. You know, once we get...

in the between of what we have to, we've already committed to, like Ariana and weekend again, like, is just right to write. So I'm gonna, and there's been a few artists that have contacted radio.

And you know, part of it, I feel really bad. A lot of times, you're just appointing people. You know, I stopped doing so many meetings now from last year,

because I feel like I've got the guys, you know, in a good place where they know people and they're building on those relationships. So I don't have to be the one always going to meetings. Because I felt like, for a while there you're just,

saying no every morning. Right. You're meeting with a heartbeat. You like them and you like their project or you like the artist. Yeah. But you're just saying no all the time. But building demand is not a bad thing. Yeah.

And by leaving town or being busy or being committed, it's a disappointment that they can't have you involved. But the minute that you are available, that door is still open. If you were not busy and you were saying no, that's a different thing. Yeah. But you're in it, you're not there. So you have to really feel like, and again, this is another max lesson.

You have to really feel like you can deliver. And if you can't, even though you love the artist and you like the idea of delivering for that artist, and that just happened to me recently where I kind of suggested something, and then I actually had to email and back out of it because I realized, like, I don't have anything in my head. Like, I could go in and just try to write for right sakes,

but I'm so afraid of that right now because it's been so far. So I think I have to sort of exercise that muscle a little bit. Sure. and then agree to do stuff like that. But if I haven't been under the artist's skin, I don't really get it. Like I got what Ariana should do and say, and we're close, so we're able to, you know,

and she just says stuff. And she's now, especially in this next time, I'm involved in stuff. And you could see where she wants to go, like with Dangerous Women, how that's, like, the perfect thing because that's where, you know, she wants to be. And she is as she grows into a woman.

Sure. But if I have an artist, even if it's a huge artist, I love the idea of giving so-and-so a hit, but I feel like I can't deliver. I feel like they're expecting you to. That's the thing. With success, it builds this pressure. And you either just go with it, not give a fuck,

and if it fails, it fails, or there's two personalities of people that do that, and I really admire those people. For me, I get scared, and I'm like, okay, if I don't think I'm really going to deliver, I don't want to risk disappointing them. And if you're 25, it's okay if you make a lot of those mistakes and stuff. At some point, it starts to get like, well, how big is your window? You've got to make sure you have to continue these.

Yeah, and I'd rather have a few things that explode. Right. And then, you know, because it's not fun when something doesn't work. Right. Well, speaking of things that do work, I think that we'll probably edit in here, do the dirty pizza, which is pretty much right when we first met. Yeah. Do we know what that sold yet?

I have no idea. Probably, I mean... It's only a few thousand, right? Yeah, I mean... Because Nile from One Direction tweeted it already. I love it. I mean, it was like a genuine... It's a, you know, it's a song that you and me and Evan did that Eman and Andrew Goldstein produced.

And we managed to get all these people to tweet about it. And we got really into it. And it became a worldwide trending song. I remember that. Yeah, it was trending. It was a worldwide trending song. and it was, you know, just us having fun. So the band was called Hot and Ready.

Yeah. And the song is called Do the Dirty Pizza. I'm still disappointed. We never got like a sink for that. We should have. We don't like we really ever tried, but we kind of should try. I don't know why it's not like it's,

it's no more dated now than it was then. Should we try? We should get publishers to try. I'd love to. Like, imagine like a pizza commercial, The Dirty Pizza. Thanks for listening to this episode of Ann the Writer is. If you want to hear music,

from this songwriter I just interviewed, be sure to check out our Spotify playlist or visit our website at and the writer is.com. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe to us on iTunes. You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter. And The Writer Is is produced by Joe London, edited by Miles Bergsma,

and published by Big Deal Music. A special thanks to Jeff Sparger, David Silberstein from Mega House Music, and Michael White. Until next time, is Ross Bowling.