And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 31: Nicolle Galyon

Episode Date: November 8, 2017

This Kansas native and Belmont University alum signed with Warner Chappell Nashville shortly following her graduation. She earned her first #1 song with “We Were Us” performed by Keith Urban and Miranda Lambert. Later partnering again with Lambert, she won the ACM’s 2015 ‘Song of the Year’ and the CMA’s 2014 ‘Single of the Year’ for "Automatic." She co-wrote and co-produced RaeLynn's album 'Wild Horse', which debuted at #1 on the Billboard Country Albums chart. This marked the first time in 10 years a female has co-produced an album that debuted #1 on the Country Album chart. She has also penned hits for Florida Georgia Line, Lady Antebellum, Kenny Chesney, and Kelsea Ballerini. She is a huge advocate for the songwriting community, making frequent trips to Washington D.C. with the Nashville Songwriters Association International to meet with lawmakers and use her voice to push female producer and songwriters forward. And The Writer Is... Nicolle Galyon! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey guys, this is, and the writer is, and I'm your host, Ross Golan. I've written with hundreds of artists and writers over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life, the industry, politics, composition, whatever. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs, and most importantly, who the people are who write the songs. I'm producing this with the Great Joe London, big deal music publishing and mega house music management if you want to listen to the songs we

discuss in this podcast follow us on our socials find out about special events or buy some of our merchandise go to our website www. www.andthe writer is.com oh and if you enjoy this podcast please rate us on iTunes or whatever your preferred podcast listening site is we really appreciate that effort this week we are featuring five country Music Hitmakers in honor of the CMA Awards. The biggest stars are coming together on one stage where the heart of country music

beats stronger than ever. Watch as Brad Paisley and Carrie Underwood host the 51st annual CMA Awards tonight at 8 o'clock 7 o'clock Central on ABC. See powerful collaborations by Kelsey Ballerini and Reba McIntyre,

Brad Paisley and Cain Brown, Marin Morris, and Nile Horn. And their might even be a song that was co-written by yours truly. It's country music's Night to Shine, with unforgettable performances and the best of the best honored in several categories. For more information, visit cMA awards.com. Today's guest on CMA Week is Nicole Gallion.

This Kansas native and Belmont University alum and Warner Chapel writer was pretty much my first co-write in Nashville. So I'm really excited to have her on. I hope you guys enjoy this show tonight, so tune in to that. Without further ado, here is, Anne the Writer is, featuring Nicole Gallion. Welcome to And The Writer is. I'm your host, Ross Golan. This week's writer pens, Country Smashes.

One of my favorite stats is that she recently became the first female to co-produce a country Billboard number one album in over 10 years. Meanwhile, in her personal life, she and her husband are the songwriting power couple, raising two children while winning country music's biggest awards. From Sterling, Kansas, this writer has become a staple in the Nashville writing community, and the writer is Instagram Supermom Nicole Galleon. Oh my gosh, can you just announce me like that every morning when I wake up? That's awesome. 100% it's going to be weird when Rodney your husband's going to be like

you've got to get Ross out of here Instagram Super Mom oh illusions I was also thinking that you should absolutely have a song somewhere called The Girl from Sterling just the internal rhyme is do you not have that

well I actually have a title it's not the girl from Sterling but I have a book title that's been in the back of my mind for years and it doesn't have Sterling in it but It's kind of reminiscent of a girl from Sterling. So when the music business is done with me, I'll go write that book. Are you going to do like a tell-all book? I don't know if there's a book long enough to tell all,

but I'm definitely going to write a book someday. Wow. Have you ever, do you do writing outside of songwriting? Well, that's kind of, it's funny because I never thought of myself as a songwriter. I grew up like writing, but never putting it with music. It was weird because it's so cheesy to talk about now, but I was the yearbook editor and I was the literary journal editor

in high school and I worked for our small town newspaper in the summers and I would towed a camera around on my shoulder and I'd go to all of like the little city commission meetings and report and write the copy for the newspapers so I was always telling a story in one way or another and it wasn't until much later that I got to Nashville

and figured out that if I just put that with piano which I already knew how to play that I could be a song writer. Describe what Sterling, Kansas is. Well, it was originally named Peace, Kansas. P-E-A-C-E. Oh, that's sweet. And that's kind of what it is to me. It's like, it's really like how people that are from cities, they look at like a show like the, like the, what's that, what's that, Andy. Oh, Griffith? Andy Griffith show. And they go, oh, that's just in, that's just in, you know, Mayberry is.

just like a movie set. That's not a real thing. Like that is how I grew up and that is, and if that's not how I grew up, that's how I perceive my childhood. I have that, oh, wow, yeah. I have that, like, small town, charmed, rose-color glasses thing about my childhood. So when did you, do your parents do music? No.

No, no one in my family, except for my grandpa, actually is from Tennessee. and he and his Ed and Valena and the mountain band or something like that in East Tennessee they would travel around and probably like a covered wagon that was so long ago Do you have recordings of it? I don't of them

but he ended up moving to Kansas and marrying my grandma and they had seven kids the youngest of which is my dad and once like late in his life when he was like retired he would go and play at Nerva nursing homes.

Oh, cute. And he made this cassette that they would sell at the nursing homes. And it was all these really old time songs that I think he probably played with that band. And so that's really all that I still have left of him. Did you start, you were saying how you were doing, you know, you were into writing? Were you writing basically, you know, was it, did it go from wanting to write to wanting to, I don't know, publish your writing in a new school newspaper or whatever? How do you end up getting involved in actually writing for other people to read? Well, and it's just called Smalltown.

I mean, there were 2,000 people in my hometown. I graduated with 38 people. I mean, that's the beauty of a small town is you get to try on every hat. There's not like, you know, you grew up in a city. You have to be the star volleyball player by the age of seven to be on a volleyball team. When you grow up in a small town, you're like, oh, debate, I want to try that. Hmm, forensics, I want to try that. Volleyball, I want to try that.

And I tried everything and did everything. And writing was just something that I just, I didn't realize I was doing it until I really looked back. And I was like, oh, wow, I did all that writing. And because I didn't, I was kind of like the anti-girl that moved to Nashville. Most girls grow up singing and wanting to perform. And that gets them to Nashville. And they get here and they go, oh, I need to make music.

I need to write my own music so that I can make a record. I was the opposite in that I was obsessed with country music and had never sung in front of anybody and had never really written a song. But I just wanted to be in the music business, so I moved here and then kind of learned about songwriting and then started writing. And then through that, I kind of started singing out of necessity.

So everything went backwards for me. And it's really weird now because now I'm like, it's really full circle because I've never thought of myself as a singer I still if someone walks up to me now and says oh you're this is a singer-songwriter I'm like no I'm just a I'm just a songwriter just a writer no just a writer I'm not a singer just so you know like everyone in this town can sing and I didn't come here to sing I don't know why I'm so stubborn about that but it's you know

did your family growing up say oh you should sing or you should write no I had a choir director in high school that because I did all the music I did like choral music and I played saxophone in the band and I played keys in the jazz band. Like I did everything. Thinking of 38 kids and when you talk about all these things is I just imagine that volleyball is half of the 38 on one side, half of the 38 on the other. Then you guys all go to cheerleading together. Then you all go to football together and you literally like you have to play both quarterback and cheerleader and you have to be like. I'm going to tell

this is going to blow your mind. You're doing the journal writing of the like the school musical while you're in it. You know what I mean? Like she did. She's amazing in this performance. Gallion. Galian star it as da-da-da.

No, I mean, on a Friday night though, like I would take a yearbook camera to the football game over my shoulder. I mean, it was, it's like, it literally is like out of a movie. I would wear like my boyfriend

who was always on the football team because hello. And I would wear like his letter jacket to the football game. And then I was like the drum majorette. I would like conduct the pet band up in the stands. Like pregame like while they were warming up. And during the game I would go down on the side of the field with my camera and do action shots, you know, for yearbook of the football game.

And then at halftime would perform. I mean it was just like everyone wore all the hats. But I think it's really cool because you get to, there's not a lot of pressure. No one was pressuring us to be the greatest in a city at something. We just got to be, you know. Did the music that you were playing in that band, was that when I, where I grew up, I grew up in Chicago. So, well, north suburbs of Chicago.

My friends, once they visited where I was from, they were like, you can't claim Chicago anymore. So I respect that. So from the north suburbs of Chicago, the music that you'd play in jazz band or an orchestra were not, really contemporary music, but that's what we learned how to play. You know, when you're playing sax in that band, what kind of music are you playing in that? And are you being introduced to music outside of country, or is this band that when I didn't grow up in Kansas, I kind of think that

you guys are playing, you know, fight songs and then also playing covers of, you know, Garth Brooks or something? No, no, no, no. Actually, well, first, there's two. answers to this. The first part is that I started playing piano when I was like four years old, real seriously. My babysitter gave piano lessons to grade school kids in the afternoons. And so, like, she kind of had a daycare. She had a couple of us in-neighborhood kids, I'm sure it didn't meet code or whatever you have to have now to have a daycare in-home daycare. But there were four to five of us that would go there, like, in the afternoon. And then the afternoon she'd have like kids that were like you know five to like 15 come over and take piano

lessons and I would sit on the floor and watch her give piano lessons and she would start she started kind of teaching me and then I was super serious about it and excelled at it and did competitions and all the stuff so by the time I got to like I did contests all through grade school and was real serious about it and then so when I got to middle school and like concert band was an option for the first time like everything was really boring to me it was very like oh well i know what a scale is i know what this is you know on the theory front i knew music so well that i was kind of like the utility player you know like i they tried to teach me to play clarinet the year we didn't have a clarinet player because it's kind of like the saxophone and then i played timpani and when we didn't have

a timpani player you know so it was and and the other part to that that's interesting is that most small towns are don't have a lot of they don't have a ton of like art artistic culture to them but there was there's this little small like liberal arts college in my hometown it's a private school and it's

you know it's a lot of money to go there it's like what's it called sterling college oh right well there you go and um and it's a lot of money to go there and so it brings it kind of keeps the dirt turned over because it's new families moving in all the time and you know just looking at the demographic of the people that could afford to go to that school

they were probably coming from cities I mean we had I remember we had a program in my small town where we would like they were like foster children to you like a family in town would like adopt for like while they were in college like a kid from the college and they were kind of like your fan you know

you adopted them Yeah basically So we were meeting like There's something very unique about my town because like arts were everything And that's not like it's usually football Which I was important to too, and I did all that. I'd played volleyball and basketball and ran track, but it's, it was

really weird now that I look back, because in small towns, don't do that. So it was, we weren't playing Garth Brooks. Right. We were playing whatever, I don't know, we were, like, it was so weird. We were winning everything, like, everything. Now it's just Kansas. It's not like we're, like, on the cover of Rolling Stone, but anytime we would go to, like, state, whatever's, and we'd always be, like, the champion. It was weird. Yeah. Did you go to college? I did, I went to Belmont And that's what got me to Nashville So in my mind

My life could have gone three ways It was either go to like Kansas State State school Do like that thing That's kind of down the middle And I probably would have majored in journalism I kind of had that in the back of my mind So you were either going to do journalism or music

Yeah or yeah or music business Or Belmont and come get a music business degree And I always thought I'd be way behind the scenes Like even more than a songwriter I thought I'd be a manager or something like that. That's just because of the way. How do you even know what a manager is coming out of high school? Because I was a super fan.

So like my mom and I, and so was my mom. And we came to, at the time it was fanfare, now at CMA Fest. But back when I was like 12, 13, she and I would, that was my very first time on an airplane was to come to fanfare in Nashville. And you would come and you would stand in line and you would get everyone's autograph. And is it the fairgrounds? it's big and shiny because the CMA owns it and it's at the bridge it's at the stadium downtown but it used to be like hardcore like you'd go sit on the asphalt for seven hours and wait in line to get an

autograph from Kenny Chesney or somebody and I mean they had these epic stories from fanfare where like Garth Brooks committed to like I'm signing autographs for 24 hours and he did it I mean it was I mean fanfare was off the chain so that's what it got me to national It was super fan. Like braids, ball cap, like just had a T-shirt that I was trying to get every country artist to sign. What did the T-shirts say?

It just said fanfare. Right. It was just a fanfare shirt. Do you still have it? Oh yeah. Are you kidding? It has like a trillion autographs on it. But that's what got us here.

And back when there was Tower Records on West End, they would have these cool shows during fanfare, and it wasn't part of fanfare, but Tower would sponsor. or like all these new artists and they would literally play in the aisles of tower records and we saw the dixie chicks there we saw keith urban there like before they were bit we saw rascal flats there we got all their

autographs there and i remember and now looking back i think it was probably like there were probably label people in the room because it was real small and for those artists it was like their first thing and i remember standing there in line to get in and we met a woman from kansas so we like obviously struck up this conversation with her and she's like oh i'm a songwriter and i'm like oh cool so you can like move to nashville and write songs cool and that planted a seed but i had no who was her name was trina harmon is she she's a professional writer she was yeah uh-huh and i think i don't think i mean i think she was she's not still writing songs that i know of i don't think she's like in our community i don't even know if she lives in Nashville anymore but um but we would meet people like that we would meet manager

We would meet, you know, so we kind of, and then we went to the Rascal, flat, no, Shelly Wright fan club party. I mean, am I showing you how big of a fan? That's crazy. And it was at the old gym at Belmont. And we, so that's where the party was. So we went on campus at Belmont to this party. And we were like, I was looking around going, Amy Grant went to school here.

Brad Paisley was going to school. They were like, I'm like, you can come here and you can. work in the music business. So that's how. How old were you at the time? Like 13. Yeah. And I wrote a letter, my eighth grade,

my eighth grade civics teacher made us all write letters to ourselves that we would open on graduation night from high school. And in that letter, I wrote it. I literally wrote, you're probably packing up your things right now. I'm sure you're really scared, but you're about to move to Nashville. Oh, wow. And I was in eighth grade.

That's crazy. Mm-hmm. So you go to Belmont, that's insane. You go to Belmont and you get a degree in music business. Is that how that works? Yeah. Do you start writing songs while you're in school? Yes.

The first thing that happened for me that kind of was the butterfly effect was that I got a job giving piano lessons to a manager's kids. That manager was Mark Oswald, his brother is Greg Oswald, who then hired me this summer after my freshman year of college to be his personal assistant. And he was, he's an agent at William Morris. And so I kind of just got swept into his world. All the new artists in town that, you know,

that they were, William Morris was courting or whatever. Like I was getting pulled into dinners because I was driving him there and I was meeting all these writers and artists. And the first time that I sat in on a guitar pole, I was like, I think I can do that. I don't know if I've ever said, in on a guitar pole.

Well, you have, it just sounds more formal. It's just like when you sit around in a living room and three or four people get out, or they just pass the guitar around. Yeah, but does somebody yell like, guitar pull? No. No, they don't yell guitar pull. It just starts like. Somebody just pulls out of guitar somewhere.

One of those artists or singer-songwriters is just drunk enough to just sit on, you know, sit back in a recliner with a guitar and starts playing and then everyone's into it. Do you remember any of who those people were? Well, at the time, the ones that stick out the most were, because they were just about to have their big heyday, was John Rich and Big Kenny, and they were like staples at Greg's house because they were, and so all the music mafia people, the Gretchen's, James Otto,

but beyond that, like Randy Houser, I mean, Randy Houser, I remember him sitting in living rooms playing, stuff. That's so crazy. A lot of people. When you were watching these people make music, still you're thinking maybe I could be a manager? Yeah.

Well, because I like come from that, like, you have to earn it. Blue collar, like, you can't call yourself a songwriter. Because I eventually started just writing songs by myself, like in practice rooms at Belmont on the piano. And I had, I was proficient at piano, so I didn't have to co-write. you know when I got that itch I just started writing um and I did for several years but I was kind of closeted like it was really hard for me to even call myself a songwriter because I was looking

around Nashville going all these people have done this since they were five how can I just write 10 songs and call myself a songwriter all of a sudden and I wasn't I was scared shitless to sing them why because I had never really saw like I I I wasn't like a look at me I can sing like I still I figured out 15 years later how to make it work as a songwriter but it's not it's not my home base at all is it is you just didn't like the spotlight on you in that way i wasn't confident and i didn't know what i was doing i mean i learned to sing like choral like whatever stuff that wasn't even in english like that's what we did in high school that's what we all do in high school and choir but i didn't know how to sing just to sing like a normal person

One of the things that I kind of figured out in the last year or two, which is strange because I'm now in my 30s, is that I think when you're little and you sing at all, then everyone assumes that, oh, well, then you should sing in public or you should be the spotlight or you should audition for this. But there's no concept of the fact that I sing more now than I ever have in my life. I sing every day, so do you. I sing all over the place, but you can have a whole career where you sing in front of some of the best artists in the world, some of the best songwriters in the world,

and you don't have to go up in front of, you know, 5, 10, 20, up to 1,000, 5,000, 10,000, 20,000 people in order to enjoy being a singer for a living. There are actual professions where you can be essentially alone at home, if you want and sing into a microphone and then it's part of you know you can sing background to stuff or you can the fact that you can write songs and be a singer it doesn't mean you have to

actually have be in front of other humans yeah i get i still get terribly nervous even if i'm performing in front of a 100 people 200 people i still get terribly nervous well and it's such a part of the the songwriting ride of passage or culture in nashville to play writer's rounds And that's a big part of, at least it appeared to be to me as on that side of it in 2000. I moved here in 2002, so like early 2000s for me to go, if I'm even going to attempt to get a publishing deal, I need to be playing lots of writers rounds so that people are aware of me. They see my name on flyers. They maybe somebody could, you know, walk in and hear a song of mine. And that was that, that slowed me down and think.

accepting like that could be a reality for me because I was so scared to sing but the guy I worked for Greg he would everyone would get so drunk and they'd be like nah get that he had just bought this baby grand at his house and this brand new piano and I would I guess I I guess I've just always been like a figure it out kind of person so I would just get up there and do it and I remember I remember sitting next to Jessica Andrews I guarantee she doesn't remember this I don't know if you know who that it was, but she was big about the same time that Leon Rimes was blowing up in country music when I was like in middle school high school and we're like the same age and I was obsessed with her and I remember a party, her sitting next to me on a piano bench

and we're all just sitting around. Someone across the room has a guitar and Greg's like, Nicole, play that song you wrote da-da-da-da-da-da, and I'm like, uh-uh. I mean, I mean, literally my heart raise is right now, Becca Bramlett. I remember one, they're all coming back now. A night with Jeffrey Steele and Becca Bramlett, like my songwriting, like they can sing, they can out sing most of the people that have record deals. And I was getting up and singing in front of them, and it was just... Why did you play...

And it's interesting. I feel like in that environment, I start covering Weezer or doing like, you know, or I start doing something else. I'm doing, you know, walking in Memphis or one of the two... or three songs I actually know how to play. But I was petrified to play my own songs just because they didn't want, I don't know, that's vulnerable.

I don't think I was good enough. I don't think I was, I didn't love singing enough to learn other people's songs. I love writing. Right. When you start writing these songs that you're then performing in front of people because your boss is telling you to.

What are those, first songs. Well, there was one called, this is like the worst title ever, it was called Queen of the 88s. And it was a song about just being like, like, I bite my nails, which I still do, look at it. Oh my God. And my life is kind of a mess everywhere else. But when I sit down at a piano, it's like my domain. And it's like, this is my, I can be the queen of this. Like, I can own this, which is so funny because I guess I was trying to like write myself into a super, superhero status because I was probably so intimidated at the time by what was happening to me and what was making, like what my heart was telling me to do. And the other song that I played for a year, like, that was one of those like party staples was this song called Right About Now.

And it was probably the first song that I think everyone started to take me seriously like, okay, you could do this. because it was just a song about I wrote it on my 19th birthday or 20th, it was the first birthday that I was away from my family I was here in Nashville and it was just like right about now the corn's about six feet high

back home and right about now all this stuff is happening but I'm not there and it was it's still to this day is like one of my favorite songs and it was probably in literally like the first

six to eight songs I ever wrote did you ever try to get that cut later in your life? Yeah actually funny story John Rich tried to do a single song publishing deal with me on that song and I knew when he did that and John's like a great friend of mine it was funny because he was like come on if you you know do this deal with me I'll get this on cut like and you know and this will help you so much and I thought if I can do I need that song to get a publishing deal if it's

that good I need it to you know and that song wasn't what got me a publishing deal but I you know When he offered that to me, I thought, okay, I think I'm getting closer, so I'm going to hold out. How soon after school did you get a publishing deal? Right out of year. Wow. So I graduated in 2006 and still had that personal assistant job, which was perfect. It was a perfect transition because I was working pretty much full time, but I could write. And I was just like working.

And I was, after I graduated, I started co-writing because I had time. too because most of the time when I was writing I was between school full-time and working as an assistant I was usually writing at like 11 p.m. by myself on a piano somewhere but once I got out of school I had more time and I could like set up writing appointments and I started meeting with publishers and it was interesting because in that period of time a lot of people and one of which was like Paul Worley was at parties like that and they would hear me play songs and they would ask my boss they're Greg, they would be like, what's she doing? And he'd be like, no, she's going to graduate.

And then you can talk to her. Which he wasn't my agent or anything, but he was just being like dad kind of to me. And I'm so glad that he did because I'm the first one in my family on either side. Like I was like the first one generationally to graduate from college and like as far as I know. Did your whole family come out for graduation and stuff? Yeah, like a trillion of them. All seven children's children's children. No, for sure.

Like cousins, like, we get like, I think you get like four or six tickets a person, you know, for graduation. And I was like hitting, I was getting one ticket from this friend when I literally had 20, at least 20 people at my graduation. That's amazing though. And I live. My hometown's like 12 hours away. These people flew in. Some of them, these people, my family, but like some of them, my cousins that were younger, that was their first time on an airplane. My grandpa, I mean, can't hear.

I mean, it was like this whole. this whole epic it was like an indie movie my graduation was getting everyone here one of the things that's awesome is you get getting a publishing deal right out of college too it's you know you're right away you're a professional you know yeah it's funny because i always well i feel like to me i i i'd never felt like i still never felt like a songwriter until every every step of the way i'd be like but you're not really a songwriter yet like i think I was like, when are they going to figure out that you're, you don't know what you're doing? Do you feel that way still?

All the time. But I've, yeah, yeah, pretty much all the time. I had a meeting yesterday about a project that I got pulled in, like, it just kind of happened organically, like, to work on a record with. And I literally sat down with this manager and the first words out of my mouth is, I'm just telling you right now, I'm not qualified for this. But I think it's going to be good. Like, I don't know. I don't know what it is. but I'm like, I'm not qualified, but that doesn't mean that we can't pull it off.

What do you think it would take for you to feel that way? I don't know. I was raised with so, like, don't feel entitled to anything. Yeah, but you're not entitled to it. You've kind of earned a little bit of that, no? I know. And also I have that, I have that hardcore, like, Christian element to my, which I am a Christian, but, like, even the way that I was raised, it's so ingrained.

like you can't really earn things like god does things you know like for you so like for me i'm like i'm i'm i always have this and i'm thankful that i have that i have this like that's part of my heart because whenever something amazing happens it's not i'm yes i feel like i'm on a mountain and i'm like ha ha you know when a song goes number one or something but i'm also like gosh i know that i could have never orchestrated that gosh i'm so humble like i'm always so humbled by it and that's not like a i'm not saying that just because it sounds good i'm telling you like every time something happens i'm just like my hands are like what how did that happen you know so you get this publishing deal um and you're starting to write how soon till you get cuts

forever i got a publishing deal in 2007 i didn't have like a legitimate song that really made anybody money until 2012 right or 2013 So somehow I managed to keep a publishing deal for six years without making anyone a penny, all at the same company. I've been at Warner Chapel since that whole time. And when I look back, it's like every year, like obviously they give you the first few years or like kind of just like as a courtesy. Like we know it takes a couple years to get things going. After that, there was always like something that was almost. Like every year my option came up, there was like an almost like, oh.

so-and-so is just cut this song I think it could be it or and then it wouldn't make it and then it yeah or or I went through which is another probably a whole other podcast of getting to the point where I was getting no cuts and was like maybe I just need to make a record because as an artist as an artist because I just want myself I knew that I had so many songs and I was so passionate I felt like I was like you know like the horse held behind the like the gate like I was like somebody let these songs out you know I was like somebody let these songs out you know and I was so passionate. And so I went through a couple years of, okay, well, let's try this on. Let's see if this is how my songs are going to get out there. Is that how you end up on the voice? It is how I end up on the voice. So did you just do a blind audition? Or did somebody say, hey, you should? The crazy story, and I'll keep it short, is that I worked with a manager for a few years to try to get my house,

you know, my proverbial house in order, you know, to get a record deal. And in that time I got, she was, she got me a vocal coach. And we, like, I learned to sing. Like, I know this was like 10 years after I moved to Nashville, but I finally learned how to use what I have. And we worked on a live show, like, all this stuff that was not natural to me. And at the end of that two years, I thought we were about to pull the trigger. And, like, we had songs. We had, like, we had all this whole thing, this whole, here's your artist.

She sits me down and she's like, you're not an artist. you're going to be a successful writer, but I've just decided you're not an artist. Wow. I don't think it's going to happen. Was that hard for you to hear? It was, but it was also. You just started putting in all that work. Yeah, it was because I felt like,

to me, that was my plan B. It was like I really just want my songs out there. So if plan B is maybe I need to go be an artist so that my songs will get out there. So now I'm like, well, what's plan C? Do I go back to just trying to get cuts and still not getting any cuts? Nobody cares.

And so literally right after it. But I look at that. I remember sitting in a parking lot going, okay. I was like talking to God and I was like, okay, this means one of two things. This either means this is like you're supposed to be done, trying to be an artist, or it means that you figure out that you believe in what you're doing when absolutely nobody else believes in it. And I literally got a phone call from two different people, like within a week

about trying out for the voice. And I guess just because I was paying really close attention just to my circumstances at that time, I was like, I can't say no. And it wasn't like I was like, I didn't do like the whole like stand in line for 20 hours. I mean, I had like an industry kind of like got to cut in line a little bit, but I did it just to know like that I wasn't supposed to do it.

I was like, I'm going to go try out. get told no and then I can move on a piece about that and then actually that'll probably be the nail on the coffin I'm done being an artist I can't make it on you know what I mean and I was also so I also thought that the reason she told me I wasn't an artist was to motivate you no it was the day after I played a show at the basement and I think that she was like she can't she can't do a live show well enough to wow and so I was like well no better way to figure out if I can sing live and perform then to go do this is like literally the scariest shit ever for me. I still, like, we already talked about, I am not comfortable singing live. And I'm more comfortable now. But it's such an extreme. Dude, I know.

I mean, literally, you go from, I don't know if I want to play this song at a small party to let's go on national television and sing and hope that they turn a chair. Well, I'm braver than I am scared. More than I am scared. Oh, interesting. I'm really scared, like, even now, like of a lot of things.

I'm producing a new thing and I'm like super scared of it. But I guess I'm just more brave than I am scared. Doesn't mean I'm not like so scared. I just do it anyway. One of the things that's interesting about the voice is just that the only people who've had any success at all have been country women. You know, there's no other genre has ever really been successful. You know, Jordan Smith has some had some success doing his Christmas album and whatnot. But in, you know, 14 seasons, there's.

something like that you know as they say it's the show where the judges win and yet the only thing that that uh the only people who've had any success and at that time were country women so i mean you obviously were in tune with you know this is a smart opportunity do you think that that helped you at all in your writing it did well i think what it did it first of all is the first time that i had taken any time off from writing. I was gone off and on for about three months. I wasn't on the show that long. I didn't make it past the battle rounds.

But you go out for one of the legs I was out there for three and a half weeks. And then I came back and then I was out there again for another three weeks. What year was that? 2011. We filmed it. And so

I think it was the first time I had just taken a breather and stepped away from writing So there was that element There was also that this Like I think I came back Really confident Because I surprised myself I never thought I was gonna make it

I kept getting like further and further along And like oh yeah Now you're singing for a producer Now you're singing for Carson Now you're singing for Oh crap now you're doing this on TV Even then I was like This I didn't even think about making it

I just thought about how do I not cry when they don't turn around. Do not cry on TV. That's how you get on TV. And then you're on the Today Show the next morning. And then that cannot be the biggest thing that ever happens to you in your life. It's making my hand sweat.

I can't handle it. I know. So that, I came back really just like, wow, if I can do that, I can do anything. And I also met Ray Lynn. Actually, before the voice, I told her to, it's a whole other episode. Like, I told her to try out.

and through that we were writing and Miranda heard a bunch of the stuff that I was writing with Raylan because Miranda and Blake were very invested in Ray and they knew that Ray was a pretty new writer

like, she was 16 and hadn't really written and so they were like oh these songs like where are these coming from and so that's how I got on Miranda's radar and so yeah you take out the voice is my butterfly effect wow yeah

did you have a personal life while this was going on oh yeah So I got married to Rodney in 2007, so we had been married for almost... Rodney Clausen, another songwriter, very successful in his own right? Yeah, he's living in my shadow. Yeah, right, right. So you meet him when? We got married in 2007, so we had been married for almost five years when I did the voice.

Oh, I didn't realize you were... Okay, okay. Yeah. And he had, he was, like, hitting a stride as a writer. Like, it was, I mean, while I was just like piddling along trying to like just trying to get a crumb, he was like he had the whole pie, you know? And it was magical for him. And actually while I was out at the show, I remember him calling me saying, have the next Blake Shelton single. And it was, drink on it had just been a single.

And he just found out that sure be cool if you did was about to be a single and it was about to come out. and it was all timed up to come out, like, right around the time of the show that I was filming or a part of was, like, going to debut and all that stuff. And I just remember being so, I was very deliberate. No one there knew I was married to him. Like, they knew I was married, but I just was so deliberate about never mentioning. Like, I would just work my way around it in interviews. How long did it take till Blake figured it out? I don't know if he ever did.

I think I think I was already off technically off the show because after the some time in that like I said I got kicked off the battle rounds and then after and you film the blind audition and the battle rounds are like like you film that ahead of time and then everyone goes home and then if you have made it then you go back and film lives well in that lag time after all of the pre-taping of battle rounds Ray was like getting really close to Blake and she told him she's like just so you know that Nicole girl is married to, you know, that I'm writing these songs with his married, and he's like, no shit, you know. And so... Did you know all these? Because, you know, with... You're going around doing all these co-writes.

Your husband's very successful at that time. You hadn't gotten the cuts yet, but you had to know a lot of these stars and whatnot just from being at number one parties and being at, you know, BMI awards and whatnot. I mean, that's... it's an interesting scenario when you're all of a sudden on television those people seeing you are they seeing you as competition or is it just so exciting for in Nashville to be on television

nationally I mean how does that change your I didn't know it was a risk it was a risk to go like how is this going to brand me in people's minds um because ultimately I just wanted to write songs and have them out you know and I've always just and I think respect I just want to be respected as a songwriter And so that was a risk I think it surprised a lot of people And I think it was like Whoa, I didn't think that she would ever do that

So It never It only did good for me I don't know how Because it's a reality show about singing And I don't want to be a singer I don't know why that all worked Miranda finds out about you

She's into these songs Are you writing directly with? her? I only wrote with her. So come back from the voice, still nothing's happening. And I think, you know what? I'm done. Like, I knew that was like the nail in the coffin of I'm not doing the artist thing anymore. And I told, like, Rodney and I were like, let's have a baby. So we got pregnant. And I remember thinking, again, I'm talking to God. I talk to God a lot. And I was like, I don't know what my heart's going to tell me to do when I hold a baby. Like, I hold my child for the first time and if that means that I'm not a writer anymore then I'm willing to let that go.

And I had gotten a few cuts while I was pregnant, which I like to attribute to baby karma. What were the cuts? We were us, was one of them. Never heard of it. But it had not come out. Like we had just, we heard that he had cut it and we heard that he had like three or four different people that were in the running to maybe sing the duet with them and none of them were tied down so I'm like are we going to lose this song I like there was and we're not close to that camp and

I think they kept it pretty quiet so I still was like I got a cut but I don't know what's going to happen with it and again I hadn't home my baby so I have this baby and then like a month later I get pulled into right with Miranda for the first time and that day we wrote automatic and we wrote platinum like in four hours we wrote that was like our both of them and we were both of them and One day, four hours. Oh, come on. That's not real. That's real.

And I remember before I left, I was like, she was talking about recording her part on We Were Us. And I was like, it happened? Like, you sang on it? I didn't know. I had heard several names were thrown out there. And she's like, oh, yeah. She's like, we worked our asses off on it. Like getting like all these parts on the outro.

You come home probably, like a zombie being like. maybe wrote the song of the year and Miranda maybe just featured on the other song of the year Well it's funny because she goes Hi Rodney Well yeah I was You know it's just

What a crazy day Yeah if I it is now looking back If I was in a days it was just because I had a newborn baby Honestly I don't think that I could I was just kind of like Get through it you know She had said Whatever happened with that song

We worked our asses off at I haven't heard a mix or anything. Like, what's going on with it? She's like, I'm going to text Keith. And I think me writing with her that day, she reached out and was like, I want a mix of that song. And so I... So crazy.

I know. That was like one of those perfect storm days. You came out here when you were 12 or 13 for fanfare, and then Keith Urban cuts your song, and you have Miranda Lambert featured on it. Is that... I mean, how speaking... of serendipity. I mean, that must have felt just like a glitch in the system or something.

Well, I, it's funny because when I heard that I was getting to write with Miranda, I literally just started praying to get a Miranda cut. Actually, I probably started praying for it before because I got to meet her and Ray kind of brought me into her world a little bit. And she's like, Miranda had said, we should write sometime, we should write. And so I felt like it was enough of a possibility to hope to get a cut. So then like, yeah, so then when she ends up on that song and then I ended up getting five cuts on that record, it was like, well, what is, I was not ready. I was like, well, I just wanted a cut.

I just wanted a cut from any one. So, like, two, like superstars was a little bit. And it was, it's funny because, like, we all have that right of passage, like, for single that doesn't work. and I had that. I had a Josh Kelly single when he was trying to be a country artist back in the day

and that one didn't work. But this one came out and I was like, oh yeah, that's going to work. And so that was like really fun to not be nervous the whole time. Like I felt like I could just enjoy it because I know this song's going to go.

Yeah. During your pregnancy, that's actually when we met. Probably. Yeah, which pregnancy? I think the first one. Yeah, probably so. And you're in the, we were just talking to a woman in the pop writing community who is saying how getting pregnant is scary because in the pop world, there's like a, there's sort of a difficult before and after for somebody who's pregnant.

And you were literally cutting vocals while you were pregnant when I first met you. It was actually one of the first times I had ever been in a studio in Nashville with a song that's being actually demoed and not just something that was written at a writing camp. That's right with a band. That was like your first demo session, right? I remember that. Well, I forgot it until you started talking about it. No, I remember. But it was just interesting for me to see, you know, I remember you say that it's like, guys, it's really hard to breathe.

Yeah. Yeah, you don't see that every day in the pop world. No, you don't. But here they seem to be really supportive. of women having their, you know, living their life, having their families and whatnot. Did you ever feel any pushback or anything? Were you nervous about?

I was nervous. I was very nervous. In fact, when I got, I had committed to take like three months off after I had that baby and that baby, that said child, Charlie, old Charlie girl. Alleged child. Yeah. And that's when I got the calderet with Miranda.

And I was like, I don't know if I could. can still write songs. Like, I felt like it's like there's life before you're a mom and life after you're a mom. And I felt like I had been to the moon and back, like, birthing a baby and having a newborn. And I was like, I don't know if I came, like, I know how to. That is so tattooed on my identity now. I don't know if I can go back and be like a songwriter and like go in a room and be creative. And so I actually booked a write to write with David Hodges like a few days before the Miranda right just to kind of like shake off the cobwebs and I'd only been gone like a month but I was very um I was very nervous about what that would look like um because when I like my my

when I came to Nashville and I was like obsessed with songwriters the only real female that was really doing great was Hillary Hillary Lindsay and she's is my hero my you know and um like if there's anyone's career that I could emulate, it would be hers. But at the time, I was going, the only female that's really having success isn't married and doesn't have kids. And so no one ever said you shouldn't have a family, but it was kind of like, well, does that mean that you

shouldn't have a family? That you can't? I don't know. And a lot has changed. Years later, when I actually was in the game, You know, Jesse Alexander came along into my life, and she had, she was a mom, and Natalie Hemby, who's a great friend of mine, you know, she had, she became a mom. And I was looking at them, and I thought, okay, they were like the junior, seniors.

I was freshman, sophomore, and I think that really planted a seat of hope in me that I could do both. And, I mean, it's a lot more work. And, you know, my husband and I have the same job, you know, but. But it's funny because we wrote the other day. We're just now writing for the first time. What is that like? Do you guys just wake up and say, all right, shall we start? No, because...

No, because... No. I imagine that you wake up and your eyes are closed and there's a piano to your side of the bed and he closes his eyes and he grabs the guitar. You guys aren't even really awake. You just start playing in bed. No, here's the reality.

We wake up. There's a monitor three feet from our head with two babies screaming, banging on their door, trying to get out. Somebody has a poopy diaper. Like, you just jump out of bed and you start, you know, making scrambling eggs and you do this whole thing. And then you both, like, you know, juggle the schedule so that one can go work out and the other one can go to the chiropractor or doctor appointment. And then you've see each other at 11. Like, it's a totally different person. That's what it feels like. It feels like I saw you a little bit this morning, but now we're like different people when we show up.

Is it hard to say, you know, no, that's not a good idea? Or is it easier to say that? Oh, he has no trouble telling me, you know, that's not a good idea. In fact, last week we wrote, and he was not in a good mood. Because he had, like, he has an injury, is a back injury right now. And I was throwing out all these ideas. And he was like, he's like, seriously? That's what you, really.

And I'm like, I mean, I have a very thick skin. And I have to be to be married to him because he's, he's not like he's not the most complimentary that's not his gifting right he's being complimentary he has he is the most solid person and consistent person that I know in the world and that's why he's my person but if you're looking for someone to just blow smoke up your ass not the guy not go elsewhere it's funny I can imagine that afterwards you come home and he's like hey how was work you're like yeah well you know what's funny is we were in the kitchen. We both left that right

and he had to go do a finish right and I went somewhere else or to the studio and we met back home and I was like, the next time I saw him was I was making dinner and he came up to me in the kitchen and he's like, I'm sorry if I was mean to you today. In the right and I was like, you weren't mean to me. I was like, you're just blunt. Yeah. You know.

Well, this brings up to the next segment which is what would Luke Laird ask you? And this is Luke Laird's question for you. Have you ever considered highlighting Rodney more in your Instagram stories so he can have more sponsorship opportunities during his bass fishing tournaments? The funny thing about Rodney is that he acts like he doesn't care about the Insta. But he reveals through conversation when he knows that someone wore the hot pink t-shirt last Tuesday

to the Rolling Stones concert, like that he's following everything. And he knows, I mean, he gets it all. In fact, the other day, he was like, you know what? I've really been noticing in your Insta stories that you're, like, getting more like, he's like, I actually think you compared to this other girl that's actually a blogger.

You actually have more depth to your, and I'm like, wow, you are really following this. His Instagram is like a parody. If you are looking, if you're a songwriter, you know, if you're a songwriting buff and you like to follow songwriters and you go type in Rodney Cawson, guarantee you get to his Instagram

and you're like, that's not the real him. It literally looks like a parody of him. Of what a country writer would live. It's insane. I mean, it's like so, and maybe it's like a knee-jerk response to my Insta style. You have a ton of followers.

I do. Why? I don't know. I mean, I have ideas. You're very good at social media. I have, I mean, it's funny because, well, I know I think I'm good at it. I mean, my strengths just happen to line up with social media. I mean, if you think about it, a high school yearbook is the paper is the beta version of, I mean, and even now Natalie Hemby is like, you're like the yearbook editor of Music Row.

And, I mean, to take a picture and action shot, to edit it, crop it, make sure. that it's right, put a, you know, get in Photoshop, make sure that all the finish on the, you know, the pictures right, and then write a caption. I did that all through high school. And for our hometown newspaper, in 2011, 2010, I did, again, I had zero going on, so I had all the time in the world. I did this blog, do you remember those flip cams? Yeah. So I did a thing called the Flip Project, for no reason, where I took a video a day. for 365 days and I posted it on I think it was like a like a blog spot account and I would write something about it I would edit the video I would put a bed of music to it and some of them were like

15 seconds long some of them were like full like three minute montage whatever and then I would write like some kind of piece with it and and I just did it because I like to do it I loved editing I loved putting it together, trying to make something out of nothing every day. I mean, you really are going to need to write a book. No, I know. Because, I mean, it's not, there are people, there are people I know who want to write a book about their career or their life, but they can't really get to a session on time. Do you know what I mean?

They're not on their own time saying, oh, in my spare time, I'm going to do 365 posts. But is that not like Insta story, but is that not Insta story? Is that not Instagram before Instagram? That was like seven years ago. And I was basically Instagram. It was a video or a picture with stuff. But yeah, have you read that book, The Settle Art of Not Giving a... There's a thing in that book that I just finished that book.

And it talks about streamlining how you define your goals. Yeah. And it's really cool because it's like... And it really spoke to me because I'm a songwriter. but I've always felt like, I don't feel like that fully is my identity. Whereas some people are like, I've been writing songs since I was six years old. This is all I know and it's all I ever want to know. I've never felt that way.

Because I'm always like, maybe I'm going to do other things. Or if this went away, I would be happy doing other things. And in the book, it's like, instead of your goal being, instead of identifying your goal as like being songwriter of the year, simplify it, make it bigger. Like, I'm a creator. That is my goal, is to just create. And I think that's more of how I like think of myself.

I just like to make stuff. Sure. And I like to do it with words and stories. And so I'll probably do something beyond songs at some point. When you have these songs that are, let's go back real quick to automatic, you know, it's winning an ACM and you're at home. And they're congratulating you on stage because you're pregnant for the second. time. So the song goes

from after the, you have your first child, you go, you write automatic in a day along with platinum, I'm sorry, two big records in a day. You end up getting pregnant and by the time automatic's done with

its run and it gets all the accolades it gets. A massive number one song for a female artist, which is huge. You know, and she's winning, you know, gets a Grammy nomination, gets all the kinds of things.

ACMs come on and you're at home. But they thank you, which is amazing. Yeah. You know? At that point were you thinking, okay, now I can retire? Or are you thinking at that point,

no, now I need to go and as soon as I'm done with, you know, number two, let's go out and start writing again. I was thinking a lot of things. I mean, one of them was oh my gosh i was i almost forgot the show was on tonight because we got home from the hospital like 24 hours ago and you're in survival mode at that point you don't even know what time it is

you're taking an hour by hour um so i wasn't i was there in my head but then i once it happened i remember i was jumping up and down screaming with a newborn in my arms and then about 30 minutes later it just got quiet Like, like, I could just, you could just feel, because it was just me and Rodney and our kids. And, you know, in the house, it wasn't like we were having a party or an ACM party. And it was quiet. And I just, like, tears just started coming down my face. And I think that they were happy, sad.

I think it was, like, gratitude, but it was also, and shock. But it was also, is that going to be the biggest thing that ever happened to me? And I didn't get to be there for it. And then also, holy shit, look at my life. I'm holding this miracle that's so much more important. then an ACM, it was literally like I felt like God was playing a trick on me. Like, really? Like, that's what, that's a dream. This is a dream. Whoa, like check your values right now. Because I felt I was being real and that I was sad that I wasn't there. But then I felt guilty for feeling

sad that I was not there, you know, because I was, I mean, and this is probably a woman thing, but when you're pregnant, all you do is you just pray for a healthy baby. Like, I have a anything. You know, I would give up songwriting. I would give up everything just for my child to be safe and healthy and then God gives you this healthy baby and then he's like, ha ha, look. That was your tradeoff

was that you missed. I was like, oh my gosh, wow, you need to really check yourself. I mean, I had... How many people get a shout out at the ACMs? I know, but I, you know, it was like the 50th I think for like a year, I couldn't, I was like oh my gosh, it was the most beautiful moment, but

the further I get away from it, I think I look back and I realize how more of the bitter of the bittersweet is actually in me because I see, that's a mountain and you don't realize how hard it is to get to have a single, a cut, a single, a number one, a song that's nominated, a song that wins. All that is like astronomical odds. And the further that you get away from that, you look back and you go, gosh, will that ever happen to me again? And then you're like, damn, I wasn't there. will I ever know what it's like to be sitting in the audience at that you know and that was like the year

it was the 50th anniversary so they had it at Texas Stadium it was like 120,000 people or something it was like they set a Guinness World Record for an award show so to get to go on stage like it was like the pinnacle of any songwriter's moment you know we don't get those moments very often you know especially for y'all

like we have number one parties in Nashville but for you guys that, you know, have a lot of pop cuts. They don't hang a banner. Yeah. You know? Yeah. In downtown L.A. for you guys generally.

So that, you know, I mean, that's like... We had a moment this year where my wife's been sick a lot in the last few years. She's getting better, luckily, happily. But there was a moment where we unfortunately weren't able to go to the Grammys this year, you know? And that was like... And actually, I mean, she was like, you need to go. went with my co-writer, which is great. But it was a really interesting moment

because it's that same thing of like, I don't know. I care about awards more on paper than I do in the moment versus I'd much rather, you know, much rather have a healthy family no matter what. Right. You know what?

I do love the experience. I'm like an experience junkie. Like I love, not like a big travel or anything, but I just live for a moment. Like, I will spend all morning setting up an environment in our house so that our kit, like, I'll get paints out a drop cloth and get boxes and like get everyone in their swimsuits and like cut up watermelon. And it's not staging something for Instagram. It's like, I want to create a moment and get prepared and like so that everyone can just be here and be and have a moment. And I think that's what it is about the Grammy-ACM conversation was like, that was a moment.

Would that ever be recreated for me again in my time on earth? What about all the times you win BMI Awards? I don't think that's the same. It's funny because this year it'll be the first time that the Grammys have songwriters as part of the album of the year. And before that, like what you get, for a pop writer, we don't have a subcategory. Humble and kind can be nominated.

both for country song and for a song of the year. Yeah. Which is kind of, it's a little demeaning to country music and urban music that it's saying like normally your songs aren't good enough to be part of this category. I hate that about that award. Really, there should be a pop genre also. And then you can do song of the year where maybe you have all of the winners of all these things. But the gist of it is that it's really hard for a pop writer to win a song of the year or to get a nomination, right?

Yeah. And it's, there's a lot of reasons why they win, they don't, whatever it is. But the BMI's is not subjective. It's actually, or ASCAP, you know, they're not. It's really the 50 most played songs. It's not really arguable. It's just the ones that are most performed. So when you win that, to me, that means more than most of the awards.

It's not somebody voting on it. There are no labels involved. There's no PR campaign. It doesn't matter. So you show up, you show up and you win a BMI Award. And it's because your song won. You know, you win, even the NSAI Award that you won, like, those things are, they're, it's a different vibe. It's different when it comes from

Well, and that stuff can be a popularity contest Right And this, you know, this is a small town This is like, music grows like a high school campus to me You know, you got your, this guy, you got your, Everyone kind of has their lane, I mean, And it can be cool kids table At those things when we vote for each other

It can also, I mean, when the right song wins, if Humble and Kind wins, song of the year Everyone's like, yeah, duh, you know? Nobody's thinking, oh, that's because it's a cool kid. Right. Right, exactly. But I do. Rodney's never won. Rodney jokes, like, he can only win any.

He's never won anything voted Bob Pierce ever. Like, he's never won a writer of the year, even years that he, all the numbers were there, you know? Right. He's only won, like, a BMI. Like you said, writer that's completely by numbers. Whereas I think I'm a little bit of the opposite. sit where I think I could have, if I could string two hits together in a row, I'd probably be writer of the year. I don't know why. It's just like a different perception of people.

Don't you kind of four singles right now? I do. It's like it's just all the dominoes just fell at the right time. Kenny Chesney's, all the pretty girls, Lee Bryce's, boy, Florida Georgia lines smoothen and Ray Lynn's lonely call. Is this, is this the moment that you, is, when you said, you could string two in a row? Do you feel like this is your... I'm not saying I'm going to be writer of the year. I just think people think that I have had a lot more success than I've had on paper. And maybe I just still think of myself as bottom of the ladder.

I kind of think that might be it. Because it's really hard to have a single, one single, a single. Yeah. Also, my relatives reject because, you know, of who I'm married to. Maine Rodney's had like 25 number ones. Right. So I've had two. So far I've had other singles, but two number ones.

So whether I like it or not, and I'm not comparing myself to him, but I just know that there are so many other levels of mass success beyond what I've had, that even though I'm completely content where I'm at, I don't think of myself on the Ashley Gourley, Shane McAnally, Rodney Clause, and Luke Laird, Josh Osborne. and there are others level because they have the numbers. But they are my peers and I write with them every day. Do you feel competition at home or no?

I don't. I will say it's going to be it's going to be like trying on new clothes like this summer, like as I have more because, you know, for Rodney, you know, it all ebbs and flows, you know, and Rodney doesn't have a ton on the radio right now

and I'm about to have more which is never yeah I'm not allowed to name some of them well I was told by your publisher we'll cross you know cross that bridge when this air is you can put like a since we went to print

or since we went it'll be there hopefully we'll see that leads us to the next thing which I'm going to list five people and you just say what comes off the top of your head oh gosh let's go with Ray Lynn unicorn unicorn

I love that. Is it like a one word? Yes, sure. No, let's run with that. I like that. She's unicorns, and the first thing I think is when she used to stay with us, she would take out her weave and she would let it. She would wash it and she would lay it out all over, like the drying racks and the counters in our bathroom.

And I was just like, I mean, you'd walk in there. It looked like somebody like. Massacreed her head. Exactly. It's going to shit out. I mean, every morning I'm like waking up. and I'm like having to move him off the toilet lid, you know, so I can go to the bathroom. This is so funny.

It's so weird. Let's go with Kenny Chesney. Fanfare, 1997, stood in line to meet him for a long time, and I wore the worst outfit ever. Otherwise, I would have already posted it on Instagram. Does he know? You should absolutely post this on Instagram. I was wearing like a... You owe this to us for doing this interview.

You need to post this picture. try to describe to you what is going on with my fashion or lack of at the time. I'm wearing like a hat like a boat like a guy and grumpy old men would wear to fish like one of those low hats

with like glasses that were square with blue lenses and my hair inbrates with a Nike shirt. It was like I just like got one thing from every store to strip mall and just put them all together. It's horrible. It's horrible.

Just wait. If this song goes and whatever the song does at some point, I'm sure I will insta celebrate with that picture. Well, the captions, obviously, all the pretty girls. This is what all the pretty girls look like. Yeah, all the pretty girls shop at Hot Topic in Wichita, Kansas. Okay, Florida Georgia Line. Vanilla Wafers, because

when we were writing smooth, I remember we went through a period where there were things being smoked. I don't smoke, but there were things being smoked, and people were just kind of in their own fun place. And there was a minute when there was a line about vanilla wafer's. That was in contention for the song. It didn't make the final cut, which I think is a good thing. But that's what I will always think vanilla wafer's.

So funny. Miranda Lambert. Oh, goodness. You can throw on Natalie Hemby in this if you'd like. Man, I have so many things. First thing I think, I guess I think platinum. Because I remember the day that we wrote platinum, I was like, you should call your record platinum.

And I don't know why, and she did it. And I still don't know why I care that I got to be a little part of that decision in any way. It's a huge thing. But just to see it in print, like 20 years later, like even on whatever the Wikipedia is in 20 years or whatever they put her in the Hall of Fame to be like, platinum, I was part of that. Yeah.

And you'll go to, you know, when you're at a concert, the concerts called it, the T-shirts say it, and it's magical for sure. Yeah. Let's go with Natalie Hemby. She is probably, I would probably, the word, example comes to mind because she has been such a good example for how to handle yourself in this business for me in terms of loyalty, in terms of how to not change and how to treat people.

I looked up to her so much that I remember I know that I've taken things like watching her not cancel a new artist to write with someone big or how she'll make. the time to go to someone's show because they're her friend, not because they are the most popular person. And I just always was like, that is significant. And that's how I want to be if I ever get to go, you know, get to where you are. And I just hope that I can be that for somebody else, because I do think that everyone's looking up to someone else at every level. And when you get somebody at the top, I think of her at the top of female writers. our business, all the good values of that person trickle down or the bad values, because that's

who we learned from. And for me, she's example. I know we just did five, but I'm going to do two more. One is your, you could answer as Warner Chapel or you can answer as BJ Hill, but your publishers. Really bad bank. I mean, I don't know. I don't know who was making the decisions all these years to keep investing in me, but they clearly did not know how to do me. math. I mean, they, I still don't know. Or they're geniuses. Or they're geniuses. Yeah. They're really bad bank or they're the greatest bank, you know. Yeah. That's a good investment after all. Yeah, I've been there 10 years this year. Oh, cool. Yeah. This is like a big year for me because it's 10 years at Warner Chapel, 10 years of marriage. It's my Jesus year. I'm turning 33 next

month. So I'm 33 is really intense because you realize that's you know Thomas Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence it's like Jesus was 33 obviously like I'm past that and I haven't really done either of that so

I think well you've done a lot I'm sure if you like put on paper everything that 33 was for you it was probably significant. Yeah it was all right okay so last one Rodney Claussen. Farmer I still think of him as a farmer

and I think because he still operates like one he just does it with songs and with life I mean he does he's the most steady person I've ever been around most consistent which is hard like is not typical in our business there's so many ups and downs and so many people that are emotionally driven

in a creative world and he's just like put your head down plant another seed put your head down go to work and do it And I've seen him, I've seen what it looks like for him to get a phone call that he's not, they're changing the single the last minute in the car when we really needed the money, like 10 years ago. And I've seen him win rider of the year. And he's the same exact person in both situations, almost to a fault on the writer of the year day.

Because I remember sitting in a limo out in front of the BMI going, okay, you are not too cool to get excited. this is probably not going to happen many times if ever again so you need to lose your cool card and get excited because I should not be more excited about this than you are I was like momming him

I was like you get your ass in gear and get excited and be thankful he's like yeah but you know I mean I guess yeah yeah but also I mean what's kind of incredible is that you can both be

a writer when you need to be a mom when you need to be a wife when you need to be and those are all separate jobs and I struggle sometimes think I'm a good husband you know I work really hard at trying to be a good husband I'm a good business guy but like it's really hard to multitask

on anything and if I didn't have the same thing where it's like to have someone in your life that supports you unconditionally is really an incredible thing to find. And I'm so fortunate. I know Rodney is and vice versa, I'm sure. You know, there's a reason why you guys have lasted for 10 years. And while you have a, you know, two kids and everything, you've got four singles out at the same time.

If that was all you did in your career, then that's a plenty of sufficient, you know, discography for a Wikipedia. And that's just right now. And yet you still are, you know, able to say. say, you know, make sure you're excited. You know, that's really hard to do. I think that's what, I think that comes across in your Instagram. I think that's why I'm sure I'm not the only person who follows you on Instagram that really

enjoys when you post stuff because it is, you do show this ability to be familial, funny, and successful. and as a fan of women in feminism, it's exciting to see somebody who's a successful career woman who's also a successful mom and wife. Thank you so much. I mean, of anything that you ever could have talked, I mean, it's funny because I can talk about songwriting for a long time,

but nothing brings me more joy than to just sit and talk about like how our house works, because that's probably the thing I'm the most proud of is like our house is like Grand Central Station you know that's how I feel it's like okay I mean I know what it feels like to walk in to be dressed up and get our hair and makeup done and walk into like an award show with Rodney

and watch them win awards or we both get to win awards but they're but I also know what it feels like to literally like crash at like 10 p.m. at night in bed and like be like okay kitchen's clean everybody did this we got the kids of three birth day parties. You had, we, you know, we face time with your mom because it was, like, we did life good today. Like, to me, I know, like, that's, like, the thing that I'm the most proud of, because

this is all going away. I mean, at some point, I mean, even if it's here until, even if I get to do music or we get to until the day we die, I just feel like the legacy will live on in our kids so much longer that they'll pass on to their kids whatever moves we make where the butterfly effect of like our lineage so much more than on our songs i mean it's funny because someone was talking the other day about songwriter and they were like oh yeah but they haven't had a hit in like five years i'm like yeah so that's like a really cool thing like five years ago they had it they're not over but that's how fickle it is i mean gosh even two years rodney was talking about somebody's like yeah they haven't had a hit in two years i'm like

they're lucky they got to have a hit two years ago because, you know, but Yeah, my mantra in the last couple years is legacy is stupid nobody will remember you know kids don't know who Paul McCartney is they certainly don't know who I am or any of the songs, you know, it's just not how that really works

Oh for sure, I don't even know who the pop writers are and this is my job I am fully immersed in this song publishing world the little microcosm of, you know, and I don't know who these names are of people that are dominating pop. But now you do because of this podcast.

Yes. I wish, when are you going to do one of these? Because we need to talk about you, we need to hear you guys talk. Is that going to be, are you holding out for a, like a motion picture to do yours? I don't know, I mean, it's not really, you know, I'm trying to make it less and less about me as we go through episodes because I find you,

I find you guys so fascinating. I mean, this is what, the reason why I do writing is because I can have a day with you every time I'm in Nashville. And that's really fun. I can write with these incredible writers and just catch up and find out what they're doing in their life. And then try to write the best song that they have right now today. And then I can go tomorrow and try to find out what that writer has been doing and what that artist has been doing and try to write their best song for the day. because that's what's fun about this job. And it's weird because I think I talk too much a lot in my life.

And this has been a really enlightening process of listening to myself communicate with humans. And it's changing how I have normal conversations. And it's changing how I write. And it's changing how I think maybe other people are writing. And maybe it's even changing aspiring writers, how they should write and how they should communicate. that it's not just about whatever awards I win, that's pretty cool, but it only works if all my co-writers are amazing.

It only works if all the artists put in the effort of going and doing shows and radio and all the things they have to do. It doesn't matter how awesome it is. If I come up with the idea and I have the work tape, that's awesome. That's cool to show the five people who care. Yeah.

You know? But in reality, the kid who's, you know, dancing around to whatever song I did, it's not because I wrote it. It's cool that I feel connected to it. But it's no longer mine once it's that kid's dancing to it. You don't get that feeling when you see someone sing your song in an arena. Oh, it's the coolest thing in the world.

I'm probably narcissistic because I make it about me. I'm sitting there going around and I go, like I zoom out and I go back, or I zoom in, I guess, back to like the moment of creation. or the moment that was someone that the song started to take shape or some who said what in the room like i go back to that when i'm looking around going whoa that set all this in motion the last time i was in in nashville i was on tour with selina gomez and she played three songs of mine in the last tour and so every arena we went to is 20 000 people singing three of the songs that we had done and some of them were with my friends one of them was a song i wrote you know 100% of the lyrics and melodies and you know, and my voice is in the track. So you hear my voice. You hear everyone singing along. And I guarantee if I went up to what, some random 12-year-old girl and be like, hey, I wrote those songs.

One, that's creepy. Two, I think they'd be like, okay, can you stop interrupting me while I'm watching Selena Gomez? I don't know. I think you could get either because I've been at concerts before, like back home. Like, say I went to a Miranda concert in Kansas City and I'd take some high school friends. that are not, have nothing to do with music business, we'll be sitting there and they're just proud of me. So, like, my, she'll sing one of my songs

and we're like, yay, you know? And they'll, like, turn around the people behind and be like, she wrote that song. And they're like, wait, what? It takes them in to register and then they get super excited and then they want to talk. No, that's awesome. But that's, it's because they love that.

Like, my parents, when I was little, I remember the local newscaster was somebody they went to high school with. and they were just for one of the channels I don't even know it and I remember them talking about how cool that was and I so bad for some reason that was the seed that was planted in what I was doing

whether it was politics whether it was going to be theater or whatever it was that I was going to end up in I wanted to do something that my hometown would think is really cool I don't know why because I don't go back that often anymore I've lived in L.A. for longer than I lived in Chicago

So it doesn't It doesn't It doesn't rationally make sense But You know My The only people on Facebook That see the things that are happening

In my life Are people that I went to high school with And so I think it's cool That when they hear these songs That are on the radio on the Today Show In a Walmart commercial Whatever it is That they can go to their kids

And say I went to high school with that kid I'm the exact same I have processed it that way, but then I moved on to a new thought, which was, I think maybe I'm just trying to impress my child's self, you know, or I'm trying to, yeah, I'm living for her more than, because I don't really like when my hometown makes a deal about things. Like, I'm proud to be, I'm more proud to be from there than anybody, and I'm super connected and involved. We're building a house there. And I mean, we're going to go back for a month every summer. But for me, I'm uncomfortable when they're like, we want to do something in the newspaper about you being nominated for a Grammy.

I'm like, why? Don't do that. No, that's uncomfortable. For me, I think I finally figured out that I'm just still looking at myself like I'm seven years old and a fan and impress her, live for her. Because she didn't think that she would have never thought

that you could be here. So that's kind of my fuel, I think. Well, I can imagine she's pretty, pretty impressed with you right now. Yeah, she probably is. She's probably upset with how much I cussed, too. On that note, thank you so much for doing this. Thank you for doing this. This is so cool. Don't miss the 51st annual CMA Awards tonight at 8 o'clock, 7 o'clock Central on ABC. See performances by your favorite artists including Garth Brooks, Carrie Underwood, Luke Bryan, and many more. For more information, visit cMA Awards.com. Thanks for listening to this episode of And The Writer Is.

If you want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed, be sure to check out our Spotify playlist, or visit our website at and thewriteris.com. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe to us on iTunes. You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter. And The Writer Is is is produced by Joe London, edited by Miles Bergsmah, and published by Big Deal Music. A special thanks to David Silberstein from,

Mega House Music and Michael White. On next episode, we sit down with Ashley Goreley. Carrie Underwood. Oh, life changer. For me, for sure. And just perfect, man, what a perfect vocalist and great role model for my daughters and all that stuff. My daughter and everything. So she was the first, you know what I mean?

As far as me having success like that, having a hit, that was such a cool thing because I was watching. We watched American Idol, like, routinely. like we were in on it then you know whatever season that was and so i remember literally saying like i got to get a song on this girl right here you know when she was like barely in the in the top 10 so to kind of see that all the way through and for that to happen was was insane so she i mean she's sweetheart she's great until next time this is ross golin