And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 35: Kenny "Babyface" Edmonds

Episode Date: November 20, 2017

Our next guest is an 11-time Grammy Award winner with a career that has been nonstop for nearly 4 decades. He has earned more than 200 Top 10 R&B hits, over 50 Top 10 Pop singles, and 16 #1's. As the co-founder ofLaFace Records with L.A. Reid, he is responsible for nurturing the careers of megastars such as TLC, OutKast, Usher, P!nk, and Toni Braxton. As if that isn’t impressive enough, the ‘For the Cool in You’ artist has penned hits for legendary superstars Whitney Houston, Michael Jackson, Barbra Streisand, and Celine Dion. Some examples of his masterful work are “I’ll Make Love To You” by Boyz II Men, “Best Thing I Never Had” by Beyonce, “Take A Bow” by Madonna, "Another Sad Love Song" by Toni Braxton, and “We Belong Together” by Mariah Carey. With credits such as these, he has earned himself numerous awards and honors from the Soul Train Music Awards, BMI Awards, NAACP Image awards, American Music Awards, BET Walk of Fame Award, receiving a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame in 2013, and most recently, was inducted into the 2017’s Songwriter’s Hall of Fame. Not to mention he is also quite the passionate philanthropist. Currently working on his next solo album, we are honored to say, And The Writer Is…Kenny “Babyface” Edmonds!  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey guys, this is, and the writer is, and I'm your host, Ross Golan. I've written with hundreds of artists and writers over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life, the industry, politics, composition, whatever. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs, and most importantly, who the people are who write the songs. I'm producing this with the Great Joe London, big deal music publishing and megahouse music management if you want to listen to the songs we

discuss in this podcast follow us on our socials find out about special events or buy some of our merchandise go to our website www. www.com oh and if you enjoy this podcast please rate us on iTunes or whatever your preferred podcast listening site is we really appreciate that effort Welcome to And The Writer is. I am your host, Ross Golan. This week's writer, artist, producer, is one of the greatest songwriters of my lifetime, with 16 number one songs out of 50 top 10 pop hits. And get this, 200 top 10 R&B hits.

This man has sold over half a billion combined singles and albums. Not bad for a guy who only has 11 Grammys. If that wasn't enough, he co-founded, the face, which became the home for Usher, Tony Braxton, TLC, Pink, and Outcast. From Indianapolis, Indiana, this philanthropist passionately helps

those who struggle with diabetes as well as those who are fighting Alzheimer's. And the writer is the newly inducted songwriter Hall of Famer Kenny Babyface Edmins. So how do you get started in music?

I mean, are your parents musicians? I know you were in a band with your brothers. Yeah, my mom, she's singing the choir a little bit. And my dad, he kind of just sung around the house a little bit. He'd record himself on a little tape recorder he had back then, way back then. But other than that, he wasn't a professional singer or anything, but he had a pretty cool voice.

He was a really good whistler. And we used to just kind of sit around and watch him sing into the, you know, into his little microphone. Was he making up things? No, he sung like Nat King Cole songs. Oh, sir. And jelly roll and a couple things like that. But other than that, it was just music in the house, you know, just listen to the radio.

You played a lot of instruments. Were they introducing you to a lot of? I picked up guitar when I was in sixth grade. because my brother had brought a guitar inside the house, acoustic guitar. It wasn't his. He was borrowing it from a guy. He was in a band called The Soul Innovations.

And he brought back this guitar in the house and sold nobody not touch it. Of course, I touched it. And so he used to play this little lick, a little riff, and I watched him play it. And my problem was, I'm left-handed, and it was the right-handed guitar. and so he was right-handed, so I'd watch him play,

so I had to watch it upside down. So I started teaching myself how to play, but upside down, because I wasn't supposed to be playing it. And one day he walked in the house and caught me playing it, and he said to me, you'll never be able to play it like I can play it. And I thought it was mean, but I thought it just occurred to me. Now, maybe he said that because I'm left-handed.

So he might not have been being mean. mean at the time. But actually when he said that, it kind of just inspired me to really work harder and try to be better than him. When did you start writing? When you were fiddling around with the guitar? That's actually why I picked up the guitar. Because that was in sixth grade, and this girl named Rhonda Newboat had just moved into

the neighborhood, and I fell in love with her first sight, and I wanted to write a song for her. And so that little lick that I learned from my brother Melvin, I turned that into a song. Do you remember what it was called? Here I go falling in love. Did you sing it to her? No way. Really? Of course not.

Can you sing it still? Yeah, I play it in my show sometimes. Really? Yeah, if I'm just having the acoustic guitar, I'll go through all these songs I wrote. And I'm like sixth grade and eighth grade. Because I was always falling in love and getting my heart broke. so I had a whole bunch of songs. Where does that come from?

It's just because you had a loving family. And so sort of, like, where does it come from? Maybe as presumptuous. I started falling in love in kindergarten, so I don't know. Who is that? That was Debbie Mormon. Nice. In kindergarten.

First grade was Hope Hopkins. Second grade, second third and fourth. Nobody was cute those years. Fifth grade had a crush on a fifth grade teacher. Mrs. Potter and then sixth grade came around the new boat and that kind of changed the game. I kind of had a crush on Ron the Newboat all the way through eighth grade. When you start playing music at that age, are your friends and family encouraging you saying, hey, you should keep playing? Are the girls in junior high? Are they too young at that point to know how cool it is?

Well, it was cool. It gave me a voice, put it that way, because I was a very shy kid. But then it was a musical house in the sense that because my brother, Melvin, he was in a group. And as I said, he had this group called The Soul Innovations. And so that same year when I was in sixth grade, he was doing a mixer at the high school that I ultimately went to. And the Jackson 5 were out at that point. And so he didn't have anybody saying Michael's part for Who's Loving You. so he auditioned my brother and myself

and I won He auditioned you and your brother? Me and my brother, Kavon And I ended up singing Who's Loving You at the mixer? And so music was a part definitely a part of something

and Melvin was in this group The Innovations and he wasn't so much writing songs that much he, I remember there's one song he wrote that I still remember but he wasn't so much of a songwriter once I got on the guitar that's kind of like all I did

was I wasn't really so much trying to learn songs on the radio I was trying to learn how to write songs sure my own songs what's the story about you disguising yourself to meet Jackson 5 somebody told me to ask you that well

that was in eighth grade that was a that eighth grade year that was a crazy year because in 1972 so much happened it's hard to believe so much happened in that year but like at the beginning of the year my father passed away January 2nd and but it was also that

probably that that was also the same year that I had my first kiss was around the new boat and my first diss she kissed me and dissed me at the same time and yeah but another great song came out of that one and

and um but then the Jackson 5 thing happened was because when I was in sixth grade I saw them went to a concert and saw them doing the going back to Indiana concert

and I was blown away and I promised myself I'll meet them one day and so when the eighth grade year came um that somewhere

February March they were coming in and I saw this saw it in the newspaper and so I decided I looked in the newspaper and looked at who the promoter was and the promoter's name was Charles Williams so I called up every name in the phone book looking for Charles Williams asking is this the promoter for the show for the Jackson 5 show he said yes then I hung up and I waited a day and I called back the next day And I call it as a journalist, a teacher, Mr. Clayton. That's what you said you were? Yeah.

In eighth grade. Yes. So your voice doesn't sound like you're a teacher. No, but I had a really good Jimmy Stewart impersonation. Can you do it still? Hi, this is Mr. Clayton I'd love to talk to. I was wondering if I could speak to, is this Charles Williams? I heard that she got these guys.

Jackson boys So I went through the whole thing And so I did that as Eighth Grater And I used his voice I said my name is Mr. Clayton I'm a teacher A Wesleyan, I'm a journalist teacher

At Wesleyan Junior High School and I thought This would be great if I could have kids Interview kids And Charles goes, I think that's a great idea He said so how do I get in contact with you Mr. Clayton? I said here's what I'd like you to do One of the kids, one of the students His name's Kenny Edmunds, Grace

student, I'm going to give you his phone number, and I'm going to let him set it up like a real journalist, so you can call him, and he'll set the whole thing up. He said, great. So he called me 10 minutes later, and I answered the phone like, oh, my... Are you so nervous? Of course, because my mom was at the house, and she had seen me doing that, and she would have killed me. So, but it all worked out. He called, and I acted surprised that Mr. Clayton had set this up, and he told me, I'll let you know in a couple weeks whether we can do it. And then he called me a couple weeks that you got their interview and so I was able to go interview the Jackson

5th um did you tell I mean you have you had some relationship with Michael Jackson as like a of course I told me yeah so like this had to be something that you guys

talked about I did it I told him and his um and his brother's germane and everybody because I have a actually there's a picture out there because I did it twice

and there's the second meeting I have a picture out there in the hallway but yeah I've met them a couple of times of course they don't remember Of course yeah I mean yeah That's amazing

So take me from basically that To you know Becoming an artist Because I assume that's first I mean actually I know that's first You know before you get into really like writing For other people and stuff Internally you're writing about all these

You know the girls that you have these crushes on So when is the moment that you start performing for people and saying, you know what, I'm not just a kid who's trying to write songs at home, but I want other people to sing along to these. Well, that was kind of all the, like once in sixth grade, I sang with my brother and Soul Innovations. Did that ever, did Soul Innovations ever have a record deal,

even a local one or anything like that? They did not. Then I joined another group called the Indy 5, which was like the Jackson 5 and I never really did get this thing live with them that never did work out and then that was in the seventh grade and in eighth grade then I started my own group

which was initially Gemini 8 that was a couple of friends Kenny Adams Michael Gregory Keithy Adams Kenny Hamilton Lloyd Crow and so we had a little group initially it was called Gemini 8

and for some reason we changed the name to LC Solo Unlimited I think because we started to rehearseing over Lloyd Crow's house and he was the drummer and so LC LC Sol Unlimited and then we got this

a chance to perform live on this local TV show Kenny Hamilton's and Kenny Hanniton his son not his dad had a connection down at this TV show called Clover Power, which was a local kind of show where they show pigs and stuff and crazy stuff.

But interesting enough, the host of the show was none other than David Letterman. And so we actually performed on and sang The Love You Save on that show when I was in eighth grade. and it was with the band called Elsie Soul Unlimited and we were kind of famous on my street because when it came on that Saturday morning I was famous for a little bit but that being

said even then I was writing the songs but we weren't performing them yet with the group it wasn't until why did you not want to present listen to them? That wasn't something that we were thinking.

We think we were supposed to be playing jazz five songs. Yeah. And then when I got to ninth grade, I was still writing songs and I mean I started writing

more coming. I had had my chance with Ron the Newboat. I finally got to see her and spent the last day of school with her and and I had a two-week relationship with her

and it ended in a kiss and a dis which was the kiss was my first kiss I didn't know I wouldn't expect it she said kiss me and I said okay I kissed her then right after the kiss then she said we're not going to bear to see each other anymore and long story

it was bad and so I I left walked down the street had tears in my eyes went straight to my guitar and picked up my guitar and I walked for days it feels like probably long as

as Forest Gump walked in and I wrote this song called The Bitter Tastes of Life and at that point I just kept on writing songs and then the next year

when ninth grade came met this other girl named Toneita I wrote Tena and then I wrote Too Shy and so what happened was at the end

of my eighth grade year there's this guy named Emmanuel Officer that came over to my mom's house looking for me and he asked my mom, he said, is this the house?

Is this the house where the kid that sounds like Michael Jackson lives because it had become, you know, it was urban legend now that I sing at this thing in sixth grade,

I sounded just like Michael Jackson, only better. And so, she said well he did sing a Jackson Five song once I said okay well we're trying to start a group and I'd love to you know we want to meet him we got to meet them and um so my mom told me about these guys they were kind of awkward looking kids that came over and looking for me and then they left the phone number so I called the phone number and and they asked me if I would come over to audition so I went over that to audition I took my little guitar that I had it was actually a

friends guitar and it was missing a string, the six string. So for the longest time, I was playing with five string guitar because I had no money to get another string. So I went over there to the house

and they asked me to sing and they asked me to sing Michael Jackson song. Well, and sing with the record. Well, my voice had changed. I couldn't hit Michael notes anymore. So I went for it and then they were all like,

this is not the guy this is not the guy and then I said well I got something else and then they said what so I said I got a couple songs I wrote so I started to perform the song I wrote called Too Shy

and as I was doing that and the father of the kids that lived in the house he came down the stairs and he goes who's that? He goes did you write that? I said yeah he said and he goes well he's too good to be with you all y'all just and so then they hired me in the group

at their point. That was the elements. And in that group, we wrote a lot of our songs and tried to perform them all the time. We might play little house parties. We played at the Wesleyan Junior High School, the talent shows. It was something that we would do.

So it was part of who we were. So people at school, or my junior high school kind of start to know I was a musician and it kind of gave me a voice and I actually was put in charge of the talent show and all the kids would come out

all the pretty girls and everybody were coming to my house and I was in charge and so this kid who was really shy suddenly could talk to all the pretty girls and I was popular but I was not the one I didn't know what to do with it so it didn't matter

but it was like I say it gave me a voice it was empowering it showed me you know I became a person I wasn't invisible because otherwise I totally would have been invisible so music was you know the writing and the music was very much a part of my whole essence

do you still feel that way when you write that part of the goal of writing is so that you're not invisible no even after all like the huge success and all that stuff like when you still go into room you still go into room and write you know you can't have someone else write your part like you do what you do like why do you right now is it at all the same motivation good question i don't i'm not necessarily trying to be visible at this point i don't i think for a good part of my career i wasn't necessarily trying to be visible i always as a celebrity or as a star whatever like that i've never always been

kind of on the backside of that you know yeah but no I write because it's what I love to do it's it's great to write a great song and have other people perform it

or me perform it myself it's you know what better job can you have sure when did you start getting really sort of recognized as a writer and an artist at least from your perspective like is it when you

get a record deal for you? Was it when you had your first, like, cut? Was it when you had your first single? I mean, those are such landmarks in a writer's career, you know? It's a journey. There's different levels. And, you know, the first record deal that I got was joining a group called Manchow right out of high school.

I graduated high school in 76 and got asked to join that group that right when I graduated. it was perfect because all my friends were going to college and I just woke up, wait a minute, I ain't playing for anything. They were going to school for music and I had just been in high school. I was in a band called Tarnish Silver that we played at all the, everything at high school. Colleges and everything and that was our lives. We were just, and we played original songs too. and had fans of the school.

But we were like also, we all copied the hell out of Earth, went of fire. In fact, one time, there was a guy from Boston that called us and said, hey, I just saw this group that stole all your stuff. You just saw Earth with a Fire. So that's how good we were at stealing their stuff. But it was, you know,

the writing was a big, big piece of it, and always a part of it. And so going out of high school and joining Manchild and getting a record deal, okay, that's like, okay, I made it. But there's different levels of making it. And getting a record deal doesn't necessarily mean that you've made it. And I was able to put a couple songs on that album as well. but nothing It had a regional hit

Wasn't my wasn't my song that kind of happened And so I was in the Manchow for about four or five years And it ended up not going anywhere And then Then I ultimately left the group And

And Started another group That didn't go anywhere A group called April And then I left that group And joined another group called the crowd pleasers out of

it's a cool name they were in Ohio in Michigan I joined them they were basically a top 40 band and I got there and then I started to try to get them

to maybe we should be trying to get a record deal let's write some songs Was it in Detroit? It was actually all over Michigan Midland and Traverse City and Owasso and Lansing Flint

we just were playing gigs there which was perfect because it's like that's the best place where you learned how to write songs by playing top 40 oh for sure you know and there's no better school than that as long as you're paying attention

it's also hard sometimes to differentiate yourself though when you're like competing with the other top 40 projects and you're like man I how do you stick out the interesting thing though it's like because when I was in Manchild we were writing songs

and a little bit and then we did a few shows with cameo when they had started off and we were at the same level at one point but then they kind of just took off because they were writing better songs and just coolest things

and we were writing cool stuff we were like you know because we were being jazzy we were kind of like into jazz fusion stuff and so we were extra fancy, better musicians, and that didn't mean nothing. And so it took me being in the crowd pleases

and playing Top 40 every day to kind of see what people like and what people dance to and what touches people. And that was part of learning how to write a hit song, not just a song, but a song that other people might actually want to listen to. Huge difference. So going through the school with Manchow, Manchow was a funk band.

I didn't have any funk skills at all. I was just an acoustic guitar player, James Taylor loving acoustic guitarist and Waterfall, my nickname, they called me Waterfall, because all I did was play pretty songs. And so I learned, got my funk chops in Manchow, and then I got my top 40 chops in the crowd pleases. and from the crowd pleases, then I went and joined the group of the deal.

And that's kind of like when it started happening. So you have all these events that happen that you think are it, but mind you, all this time, there's no real success. Nothing is, nobody's making any money. I placed my, when I went to meet the deal, it's my second time meeting L.A. Reed, I was in Cincinnati, Ohio, because I went there

because I had written this one song that this group named Midnight Star had decided to record in the song called Slow Jam. And that was the first major song that I placed that actually made a difference because I got my first

statement, not the check, but a statement because I was at Solar Records and so they sent me a statement telling me this is how much money I got coming. It was like a check for $5,000. I said, oh, my God, this is what happens.

You can actually make money from this. And so I was sold at that point. And I was writing like crazy at that point. Yeah, once you hit the level of where you see, oh, if I write at this level, then the next song has to beat that. The next song has to beat that. Or in your head, at least, you know not to just try to write a song. You're like, no, this can be better.

This can be better. So that was amazing. I didn't get that check for a very long time, by the way. Are you sure it showed up? Are you sure it showed up? It finally showed up, but it showed up way too late after my credit had gone bad. I had got an American Express card and bought me a stereo and all kind of stuff. So I learned my lesson there.

But the idea that I could actually make a living from writing. songs. And at that point I was writing songs all the time. While the rest of the band was going out and partying and everything like that, I was in my closet with my little task cam four track writing and

constantly coming up with more songs. Whether it was for myself or for the group or for whatever, it was like if I heard something on the radio, then I want to write something close to that. So when do you start writing with L.A. in that way? I mean, you said that was a

second time you met him. With L.A., I met him first. That is this club called the Zodiac in Indianapolis where I saw the deal. And I was very impressed with the band. It was right in the time when the time and Prince were very hot. And so, L.A. and the deal,

they were ahead of everybody else in Indianapolis. All the rest of the bands were not that cool. I mean, they had leg warmers and eyeliner and everything. And we were like, so it was some weird stuff for us initially. but then and I was walking in there with the members only jacket so

so I had no vibe whatsoever that's when I moved up to Michigan and when I was up in Michigan that's when I changed my vibe and this they used to be this word we called it breed just their whole look was a it's the new breed and so there was this guy in the the group guy named Hollywood who was talking to L.A. on the phone while we were in Michigan in the crowd places.

And he tells L.A. L.A. is on the phone. And I get on the phone and I said, yeah, remember I met you down at Zodiac? He said, yeah. And I said, what did you guys doing? We're working with the Midnight Star and they're doing some demos and we got some songs we've written and said, let me play you something. So he played me something over the phone that's called Turn It Up. and it's bass lick on it

and it was just all in the whole time Prince thing it was so bad it was like I was killing me I was like oh and I'm stuck up here with these guys that are 65 years old and older and I was like I just felt like ah this is terrible so I asked Hollywood I said ask LA

if they need another guitar player or something I would love to try to join the band and he said okay I'll check with it because Hollywood was trying to get in the group too and so a few days went by Hollywood never said anything to me

I said Hollywood so did what did L.A. say he said ah he likes you and everything he said but you're just not breed enough you ain't got enough breed and I was thinking yeah but he ain't seen me because he was a member

in the member's only jacket so coincidentally when I went down to go see Midnight Star as he said they were working with Midnight Star was doing demos on them. And I went down to help Midnight Star record this song, Slow Jam, to demo it.

And so I went in the studio and sang the song. Elliot walked in while I was singing. He didn't know it was me behind the mic. And then they told him it was me. Then I came out and I had my new breed on. And so he's like, all right, you got a vibe. And then one of the guys, a guy named Jeff Cooper at Midnight Star, asked if I would stay and help them.

finished doing demos as they were preparing for Midnight Star because they were, Midnight Star was pretty busy and they couldn't do it as much. And I was really good on the four track in doing background vocals and doing demos. I was, I had mastered it. My backgrounds were better than everybody's. So they said, we need you to kind of come down. Can you come down and help out? So I left the, uh, I took some time off from the crowd please for about, about a month. and stayed down there and helped them get these demos done. And in that process,

I was able to write a couple songs as well, and place a couple songs. So the deal they all went, took their pictures and everything, and I was not in the group, I was hanging out and watching. And they sent it off, and I had to go back with the crowd pleasers.

So I'm up in Midland, Michigan. Is rock steady in that group of songs? Not that group, not yet. Okay. And so I'm in Midland, Michigan, and then I get back there, and then I get a call from L.A. telling me, guess what?

And I said, what's up? He said, the deal, we got a record deal. I said, well, great for y'all. And it's like, because I wasn't in the group. And he said, one other thing. And I said, what's that? The guys voted, and they want you to be a part of the group too. So my life was saved.

Hell, yeah. But yeah, the songs like Rock Stadium, so they came much later. Yeah. When does the deal break up? because that seems to be sort of like when you start really kind of getting into

your solo stuff and when you get into writing for other people. Kind of a long story, but while I was in the deal, when I joined the deal, I joined the deal as a guitarist, background singer, and a writer.

I wasn't supposed to necessarily be a lead singer. Now, mind you, during that time, I was writing songs all the time. And so I was also submitting songs through Reggie Calloway to Dick Griffey trying to get songs placed on the Whispers or whoever and so I would do these demos all the time

so Dick Griffey, the president of Solar Records, would hear these demos. There was one song in particular called Sweet November that Dick had heard and I submitted it for Midnight Star for The Whispers and he said, why doesn't it deal? do this, the deal should do this song.

And L.A. said, well, we don't really have anybody that can sing it. And he said, what are you talking about? You don't have anybody that can sing it. You got Kenny Edmonds, he can sing it. He said, ah, but he's not one of the lead singers. And he can't sing lead.

And he said, what consensus does that make? He said, well, we voted in the group and when Kenny was in the group, that's, he didn't come in as a singer. And I wouldn't push it. so Dick said well you need to fix that they need to go you need to sing it so L.A. went and had a meeting with the group without me there

to see if I could sing that you said no so I was voted to not sing again he talked back to Dick Griffey and this is our second album at this point at this point why were they so against you singing because I wasn't the least singer because I wasn't a Lee singer

because they were. And so this is our second album that me in L.A. ended up producing by default because Midnight Star would not produce this on the second album. So Dick

sends back the message, well, if y'all want to have a record deal, then Kenny Ebbins needs to sing that song. If you don't want to have a record deal, then all right. Then that's it. So I got to sing a song. Good for him, too. And so that's kind of like a little bit of the history of kind of like with the group.

It's like in terms of my position, I was kind of more the background guy, and I wasn't trying to be the lead guy. And then Dick Griffey decided you should have a solo record. It's cool that you're the deal. but since they don't want you to sing, you need to sing more, so now you can have a solo record. So he created so that I could do this first solo album that I did. In the process, I had a little song called I Love You Babe, and the deal we were going out on tour,

and so I had a little bit of I Love You Babe to do. But we had finally come up with this one song called Two Occasions. That was like The Deal Breakout hit for us. and we were out on tour and at this point LA and I were growing as producers and writers and we were starting to get calls

and it was, excuse me and it was just like we were so happy about it and so excited because we felt like we was Jimmy and Terry and because we got to get on planes from...

Yeah, exactly. We was traveling and the band didn't particularly like it because we'd leave dates and they called us a jet set letters and so it was getting what wasn't so great and the reality is that we weren't really making that much money out there and the money that we were making from our production we kind of kept

putting our money in so the group could be out equipment-wise and everything we were taking care of everything and not really making anything so we were just kind of just working for the band to be out so there was a one last couple last shows that we were supposed to do I made the mistake I went to visit a friend somewhere got on the plane and I landed in the wrong city where the show

was. I was supposed to go to... Can't do that anymore. New roads. Yeah, I know. I was supposed to go to Rhode Island but I ended up in Atlantic City. And when I landed there, I said oh, I'm in the wrong place I called and the show was going on.

I missed performing. And at that point, I just You know what? I'm just going to quit. So when I got to the gig in L.A. met me. L.A. said, let's quit. Oh, yeah, he was waiting for it. He was ready.

We were already kind of on the page because I was going to get a bunch of stuff for being, but not being there. Although they didn't give me too much stuff about it, but we decided at that point that we wanted to just kind of concentrate on becoming, you know,

producers and doing that. How soon after that, did? You know, I'm your baby tonight for Whitney come out. I mean, is that like... No, that was still a little time. And that's the thing is that all of this took a lot of time. It was, you know, from 87, it was probably from 80. We moved out to L.A. in 85.

And probably in 87 is when we did rock steady. So it was about two years in between there before of writing music. going to knocking on doors, going to Warner Brothers, going to Motown, trying to get people to take our music, they would not take it. Even after Rock Steady? Well, that was before Rock Steady, but Rock Steady was in that some of those songs, we played it. There were some songs that ultimately ended up being placed that people passed on. Sure.

And that's just the way that it was. So you spent more time being rejected than you were. being accepted. It's still like that on some level. Of course. So by the time, you know, the list of songs that you have that start coming out, probably towards the end of that,

you know, if you go over 85 to 90 of, like, developing, then it's just like, you know, doors are open and 1990 comes in, and it's just like, it's an endless list of huge records. I mean, Whitney Houston, cuts a record of yours at that time. You had to be like already cashing that check also.

Right? Yeah. Yeah. So when the Whitney record came, Whitney came to us. We actually met with Clive Davis to try to work with Whitney earlier and he wouldn't give her.

He offered us Jennifer Holliday first. And we were like, nah, we wait. And so we had to wait it out. We only got Whitney because Whitney got in trouble because Whitney was, she needed to be a little blacker because she was starting

to get a backlash of just being too pop so Clive wanted to do a more R&B record so we got in that way otherwise we wouldn't have got in that door and funny enough I'm your baby tonight was not that

R&B but it was enough It's a pretty crazy melody I mean it's super melodic It's beautiful that it comes in with the chorus kind of yeah and so it's it's just not your typical army record yeah at all um do you do you guys just write i mean up into this do you write from do you still write from

guitar and just being in the room or piano or you guys that was starting from a beat kind of i started that was from um keyboard yeah i was just that and just singing and creating the track yeah um then boys to men It's just kind of this like another just vehicle for smashes. When end of the road comes out, there's a difference between sort of reinvigorating a famous artist like Whitney. There's another thing in being part of like the beginning. I know it's, you know, it wasn't Boy Semen's first single,

but like to be part of that first batch and sort of set the tone for somebody's doing that, that's got it, that feels like that's a different level. level of achieving songwriting. That was a surprise because like Boys and Men, they were they were huge with the whole Motown Philly thing. Right. And they had a little more R&B kind of thing.

I think it's my first CD. First like three or four CDs. So doing the end of the road kind of giving that whole Philly sound it was an idea based off of the movie but it was nothing that we saw coming in terms of the success of it

no one could have predicted it and and it became a staple for them and it was a song that we recorded in very little time went up to Philly and probably didn't in four hours and it was the magic was just it was so easy Do you know that it's a smash when you're recording it after it? Like, do you have a feeling? I mean, I know we have feelings sometimes we're wrong about it, but like when you're done in four hours of a song like that,

you're... You don't know. Because of my personality, I don't know. Yeah. I don't ever say, this is it. This is going to be a smash. I just don't do that. I hope it feels good.

I hope it does good. Of course. I just, it's just not part of me. so I can't ever tell you I can't tell you one record that I done and say I knew it was going to be a smash Right of course And then you know

I'm just going to kind of zoom through some of this Because it's hard to keep up with it But you know Bodyguard comes out as a soundtrack And I mean as soundtracks go That's just revolutionary Of course yeah You know it's like 40 million worldwide

Some 80 million I don't know A lot of millions worldwide And then you know, it's the next really most important iconic thing for you, and from looking at it is when you have, when can I see you as your own song, soul producer, soul writer, and it's like,

that's so hard to achieve. There are very few artists who've done that at all. But how do you even go back to writing with other people? What does that do to your life when all of a sudden, Is that the end of validation for a songwriter, producer, to be like, I did all of the crafting of this song? Or is it just, that's just that song? That's just that song. Yeah. Yeah, it's never been about me.

It's always been about the songs. So the best home for the song is, that's what it's always about. So certain people would lose songs because of that I would lose songs because of that I might love a song but I know that I can't do the justice, do justice like someone else could do. So I lose the song because of that. Vanessa Williams lost girlfriend because of that.

Pavell's got a girlfriend because she wasn't girlfriend. And I was good for snatching a song back. Who told you you were a good friend? Did you know when you had that song? Because, I mean, we can name a hundred artists that would have killed for that record. Were you saying, no, I need to release this one? Or was it somebody else was like, you know, bro, you got to sing this. You're the right voice for this.

Well, I wrote it for myself and I wanted to do an acoustic thing. I hadn't had a chance because that's what I grew up doing playing acoustic guitar. so I wanted to be able to introduce that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, he's back. All right. Yeah, I mean, and then you even get into some interesting things as far as like, you know, when does LaFace actually start? It started in 89.

89. Yeah. So how much of your time is being delegated to sort of running a record label? Well, fortunately, L.A. was really kind of the guy that was running it on day-to-day, and I was more music-oriented. in it. So I was kind of like I'd go to certain meetings and stuff, but for the most part it was really just kind of like helping build the music. So, you know, in terms

of doing the boomerang soundtrack and writing music for the artists that we had, the conflict that came sometimes was the fact that I that I wanted, I didn't want to just do it for LaFace. I still wanted to write music for

everybody. And Arista and LaFace kind of had trouble with that sometimes. Because I I didn't feel like I feel like it was going to kill me if I didn't write for other people. Yeah, it puts you in a box for sure. Yeah.

Do you still talk to Clive? Yeah, I just did a album project with Clive, did Johnny Mathis album. That's awesome. I read his book, so he gives you guys some pretty solid shoutouts. Yeah, he was nice.

He was. Change the World for Eric Clapton wins. record of the year, that seems sort of like out of like the normal, you know, wheelhouse of songs. How did that happen? Kathy Nelson from MCA had called and said she had this, she was working for Disney and had this project for this film called Phenomenon. And she wanted to do this song that Winona Judd had recorded at one point. And they sent me this. demo of changed the world and it was so

beetle-esque and they said that they wanted and she wanted Eric Clapton to do it. Couldn't imagine it initially at first but then Eric Clapton had agreed to do it but he would only do it if I produced it

so she got me on the phone with him and we talked about it and then I after talking about it and I said well let me figure this out let me figure out and make this work and that kind of what happened. I took the song and then kind of rearranged it and turned it into her air clapped it.

And it worked out. You end up winning producer of the year for the Grammys from 96 to 98, which it's hard to imagine there are very few people who've won it once or twice. I mean, I know you're close to the Foster, and we can name a few, but there aren't a lot of people win it once twice

three times in a row, and that's after being nominated I think three or four times before that you start winning by you know once you become an individual producer I know the nominations

before that were with L.A. Do you think that there's some artistic value in being like doing music alone like is there anything in that like introspection that makes you a unique producer? Why is it

that what made you as an individual producer so successful? I think it was just timing, to be honest. I think that it could just easily could have been being in L.A. as well. Opportunities that were there that weren't there before. There were roads that because of when can I see you, that's why I worked with Eric Clapton, because he heard when can I see you. that's why I work with Madonna because of when can I see you. So making that decision to go with that acoustic guitar

made the difference in terms of every little thing that you do makes a difference in terms of who looks at you and who decides to work with you. And so yeah, the future may have been different, say that had I done it with LA and we were kind of doing a completely different kind of music, I don't know that I would have got that. look. Sure.

And mind you, had I also made the choice that I'm only producing LaFace and Air Star Artist, then I would have never worked with Madonna. I never would have worked with Air Clapton. And there would have been a lot of things that wouldn't have happened. I probably wouldn't have done the Waiting Exile Project. Yeah. So, you know, it's all those things that, you know, the work that you do, obviously, is your, that's your resume.

That's your card, your calling card. Yeah, I mean, I pulled up We Belon together, I think, in a session maybe like maybe two weeks ago. Uh-huh. You know, it's still for the Mariah Carey record, it's so relevant as a song kind of now because it's very simplistic in how it's produced. Yeah, simple things, yeah. You know, and it just highlights her vocals so much. I imagine that that's like another one of those calling cards because, you know, you work with, in Ariana Grande later

some of these big voices. Yeah, no question. Working with any of these artists, so over the years, at some point, it does come back to you in the work that you do. There are young artists that know nothing of you, though. And so whatever you've done in the past,

and if you can mention that you worked with a certain artist, then it gives you some brownie points, but other than that. Right. Well, I mean, you have Bieber, and Beyonce and whatever your list is so incredibly unmatched

I imagine that there are a lot of people who would jump in but that said I know we're running out of time I'm going to list five people and I just want you to say what first comes off the top of your head. Okay Okay

Whitney Houston It's amazing to work with her in the studio It's amazing to That first vocal that we did with I'm Your Baby Tonight, we were down in Atlanta. It was a little unbelievable that she was actually in the studio, and she could sing like that.

One of my favorite singers of all time. And we used to have such a good time and having fun in the studio and laughing. And it was, you know, she's missed for sure. Yeah. Boys to Men. probably one of the easiest groups to work with in terms of for me songwriting and then producing

it's just it's just easy it's just like they know what to do and everybody kind of knows their parts and we just go for it pink pink when she first came to LaFace she was in a group called Choice and knew immediately that she was a star and that she there's no way that she could just be in that

group. And then she was going to be something amazing and I wasn't wrong. Clive Davis. There's only, there aren't any more Clive Davises. There's only a few executives over the years

that are real talent-driven and talented executives. And there's only been a few. They're almost not existed now. And Clive is one of those. Why are they non-existent?

Just don't make them like they used to. It's hard for people to develop artists now too in a lot of ways. They don't know. They just don't know. L.A. Reed. Same thing. One of my best friends over all these years. Very proud of who he has become and what he's done with his career.

He is one of those. executives as well that I mentioned that they just don't make anymore. You have to understand artists and understand songs. And that's both Clive and L.A. understand that very well. And they've proven it time after time. And that's the key. With L.A., he was able to prove it so many different places. And that's not easy to do where you can go from one place to another

and keep on having the same success. No doubt. I wanted to give you a chance to talk about your philanthropy stuff, the things that you've been involved in for... Yeah, I don't really push myself on that. I'm always supportive of the Barbara Davis' diabetes program that she's had for years, and she's always been behind it.

And those are the heroes, people that really kind of like they make that they're living and they have foundations i'm one of the guys i'm one of those guys that you can call for your foundation that will be willing to help so i don't try to put my name behind in and say this is what i do i'm just there to help when i can help good man what's a message you'd give to up-and-coming writers or even you know successful writers having been through this for as long as you have everything ultimately comes down to you're a great song. No matter what and no matter who you are, where you come from, and there's a friend of mine that would always kind of, every now and then you get in financial trouble or something

like that. And I always say to write your way out of it. A great song is a great song, no matter who or where it comes from. Listen to other people's music and listen to what makes a song great and what makes it feel great. And then start working on trying to write that great song. Do you have any sort of formula when you think of writing a great song? Obviously it's the obvious things, melody and groove and are what you're talking about. Who's talking? Who's singing it?

All those things are a part of it. One song isn't going to be a hit on another artist. But initially, a song can be great without having any artists attached to it if it's a the guitar and just a simple song, simple melody in the right words and something that makes you stop and think. That is something that we all strive for. And we're always trying to write that better song. To this day, Stevie Wonder still trying to write the better song. Yeah. So it's as far your DNA is something that you always do. Yeah. Well, I know for for me it was one of my My parents could find a song of mine in a karaoke book.

That's when they finally thought I was, they realized that I was a successful songwriter. Yes. And if that's the marker of what is a successful songwriter, my friends and I still, whenever we go into karaoke, there's like a rush to put in me and one of my best friends to sing End of the Road. Oh, that's funny.

So, you know, your name comes up at the end of all, of every one of, you know, every time you perform that song at a karaoke, at the end it has you listed as a writer. And it's so hard to write a song that is a hit. It's really hard to write a song that you can just name the title and everyone can sing along to it. Or you just see a crowd of people singing along to it and you don't even have to prep them.

You don't even need the lyrics. nobody's looking at those lyrics anymore, you know? But you have so many of these hits that really influence so many people. So thank you for leading the way. I appreciate you. Thank you. All right. Well, thank you so much for doing this.

All right, thanks, pretty. Thanks for listening to this episode of And The Writer Is. If you want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed, be sure to check out our Spotify playlist. Or visit our website at and The WriterIs.com. If you like what we're doing, please, to us on iTunes. You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter.

And The Writer Is, is produced by Joe London, edited by Miles Bergsmah, and published by Big Deal music. A special thanks to David Silberstein from Mega House Music and Michael White. On the next episode, we sit down with Lindy Robbins. Until next time, this is Ross Golan.