And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 36: Lindy Robbins

Episode Date: November 27, 2017

Our next award-winning guest is without a doubt a lyrical genius. Born and raised in Los Angeles, this unstoppable hitmaker has been singing, with large thanks to her musically gifted father, since she was 3 years old. Growing up she preformed in theatre, cabaret and comedy improv, then moved to the Big Apple where she joined an acclaimed vocal quartet before realizing her love of music resides in songwriting. She is responsible for crafting David Guetta’s #1 hit "Dangerous (feat. Sam Martin)", the top 10 charting single "Skyscraper" for Demi Lovato, as well as the 2006 Disney Radio Song of the Year "Cinderella" by The Cheetah Girls and most recently, "No Goodbyes" off Dua Lipa’s self titled album. With writing credits for major artists such as Jason Mraz, One Direction, Brandy, Fifth Harmony, Rachel Platten, Faith Hill, Britney Spears, Backstreet Boys and Toni Braxton, it comes with no surprise that this multi-platinum songwriter is one of the most highly sought after in the game. She is an ASCAP Pop Award winner for the songs "Want to Want Me" by Jason Derulo, "Classic" by MKTO, "Tonight, Tonight" by Hot Chelle Rae, and "What’s Left of Me" by Nick Lachey. It is our sincere pleasure to announce, And The Writer Is…Lindy Robbins! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey guys, this is, and the writer is, and I'm your host, Ross Golan. I've written with hundreds of artists and writers over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life, the industry, politics, composition, whatever. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs, and most importantly, who the people are who write the songs. I'm producing this with the Great Joe London, big deal music publishing and mega house music management if you want to listen to the songs we

discuss in this podcast follow us on our socials find out about special events or buy some of our merchandise go to our website www www.andthe writer is.com oh and if you enjoy this podcast please rate us on iTunes or whatever your preferred podcast listening site is we really appreciate that effort welcome to and the writer is I am your host host Ross Golan. This week's writer is a songwriting community stable. She defies the rules of the industry. She's helped define not only some of the biggest pop stars careers, but also some of the biggest writer's careers. She's co-written some of the biggest radio songs in the past decade, and yet is humble and generous. From the great San Fernando Valley, this songwriter makes me

laugh, makes me think, and makes me hope. And the writer is my fellow theater dork, Lindy Robbins. Welcome. Thank you. Thank you for having me. So we've been talking for the last like hour because this is this is this is this is what happens when we're together. So I guess we should kind of instead of having people jump into our conversation. Well, we'll let's start from the beginning. So you were born As far as I know Possibly hatched Right exactly

I was born You're an L.A. An L.A. kid Did you grow up in music? I'm a valley girl An actual authentic genuine valley girl And I did not grow up in music

My father was actually My father was a musician And not a professional musician But had an incredible passion for music So I grew up What do? Do you play? He played piano

And like I sang When I was three At my cousin's bar Mithful was like my singing debut or maybe I was five. Do you remember it? No. I don't remember much about much, but no. But I remember singing with my father and him teaching me like all the old classics and that's why I have a big love for musical theater and classic songs

and Rogers and Hammerstein and Hard and Gershwin. So were you doing theater all? That was the focus when you were in school. No, it was just the focus of the songs that I knew were the American classic pop. what do you it's called the the songbook yeah the great American songbook thank you the great American songbook

and musicals because that was just his life so I grew up singing and loving musicals but I also grew up you know with Elton John and Johnny Mitchell and the Beatles and that was kind of the stuff I gravitated more towards

did was that something that he did he have an opinion towards you know what popular music was versus, I mean, I just don't know what that was like, because I do know what that was like, because I was going to say my parents, when they listened to the music I listened to, and it was, you know, Nirvana and Pearl Jam and whatnot,

they're like, this is terrible. I didn't really, like, buy music that. I mean, he bought, like, Elton John and, like, Billy Joel and the Beatles and Harry Nelson. And I remember hearing that. But I guess maybe, I don't know, I didn't really play the songs for him at that point. He was, you know, so passionate about teaching me, you know,

classic songs and Gershwin and Hammerstein. And also, I mean, I should probably say that my parents got divorced when I was 11. So, like, he wasn't, I guess, around as much when I was a teenager. So that's probably a big part of that, why that didn't happen. So you go through musical theater stuff, you're probably doing all these plays when you were younger, too, right? I did plays and then I did musical theater for a little bit in L.A. like when I... When you're in high school. Yeah.

But high school, we didn't do a musical in my year, which was like really, really sad. But I did musicals. I tried to do L.A. theater. I did a little bit of L.A. theater. And then I moved to New York trying to do theater. Okay. So you go to New York and how old are you when you're in New York? Like in my 20s.

So you get to live. in the greatest city in the world when you're in your 20s. It's still like when I think back on it, I had like no money and I mean I was living in like this tiny walkup with a shower in the kitchen

in Little Italy and for six years and I would but I didn't have a whole lot to do because I wasn't, I didn't have a songwriting career yet and it's still some of the happiest years in my life. What was your career though? What were you doing? How do you pay for life in New York?

Daddy helped a lot. I don't even know how I did it I mean my first professional jobs and I don't even really like to admit this because I did like four editions of songs for the Ringling Brothers and Barnum and Bailey Circus and I'm a little bit embarrassed about

I know it's very bizarre I'm a little embarrassed about it because I'm such an animal activist now but at the time I just was like oh my God like I just got hired to write these songs now they came back to me years later And I was like, there's no amount of money that you could pay me that I would do it. But, I mean, I was in my 20s and it was like this incredible opportunity.

And I also have a very strange. Wait, so they just find you out of nowhere and they're like, hey, lady, you want to write songs? This is what happened. My career has been very strange because when I was in New York and I was singing, trying to act, couldn't get arrested. I was trying to audition for musical theater. Couldn't get arrested. I was in a singing group. You know, I was like in the cabaret theater world.

And I got to know. like Adam Gettle who's a Tony Award winning composer and Stephen Schwartz was a good friend of mine I knew Liza Minnelli I knew Steven Sondheim through just like that was the crowd that I knew

Did you guys hang out like have dinner? With Liza yeah with Adam I dated him for a while and I mean and these are the people I wrote songs and I wrote songs with Stephen Schwartz I used to write a lyric on a page like when I first started writing songs

I would write a lyric and just like hand it to them. And that's the way that it's done in that world. And then they would like, and I wrote some great songs. And John Aquino is an amazing. Yeah, they would do all, you know, and I always heard melodies. But at that point, I was like, that wasn't the way that it was done. I mean, Adam and I, both songs that we wrote, Audra McDonald recorded and, you know,

Stephen, you know, we performed those songs. And Liza hired me to write a song. I wrote, this is insane. I was hired to write Michael Feinstein, and I wrote songs for, Bruce Valanche for Harvey Firestein. I have the weirdest career ever. I've gone backwards. I've gone upside down.

This is so crazy. Were you writing there? So you're writing the music for these theatrical stars. The lyrics. The lyrics for these theatrical stars solo careers? They were like Bruce Valanche did a movie. So Michael Feinstein and I... Most of our listeners have no idea who these people.

I know who they... I know. Give like, oh yeah, they were in this show kind of thing. No, but, well, I mean, Bruce Vlanch, you know, has been writing the Oscars, like, the joke for the... He said, how do you explain Bruce Fulandch? That's fine. I know they won't know who he is.

Harvey Firestein, you know, was a big Broadway playwright and star and Torts on a trilogy. People know, I think, who Liza is. I mean, Stephen Schwartz is like, maybe the most... He's probably one of the richest songwriters in history. I know. I mean, these were like the people that I knew. And Stephen was going through a dry spell, if you can imagine.

This was like before, this was before Wicked. Wow. And he'd written Pippin and God's been all that when he was really young. But I always wanted to write pop. And pop is my passion. But those were the people that I met through trying to do theater and the vocal group that I was in. Yeah.

So I was singing, acting. and these are the people that I met but I wanted I always wanted to write pop songs like pop was always the thing I was most passionate about I just had no idea how to who, you know I didn't know anybody and

Were you making a living at writing at that point? Well my overhead, my total monthly overhead was about $500 a month. Living in New York? My apartment was 300 and then they raised it to 400 I had no utilities, no cell phone, no car. So you were in a closet in the middle of like you were living in the smallest room impossible.

You know, a 91 grand street between Mott and Malberry. It had a shower in the kitchen, five floor walk up. And I loved it. It was insane. Because I came from the valley. Oh my God. I loved it. I would watch.

I mean, this was before No Lita and before it was all like this was like in the 90s. So I would walk, you know, every day I'd be walking to Soho or they used village or I would just, I love that, a boyfriend, a series boyfriend there. And I just, I absolutely loved those years in New York. But I don't know how, I mean, because I did the circus and then I would get hired sometimes to do special material. And, and I would still sing a little bit and daddy. Yeah. I'd be like, dad, what do you need, kid? And envelopes of cash would arrive.

Perfect. And I just got by, but I was known as like, I was the brokest. We've talked about this in other things, in other episodes where somehow when you're the brokest, there's always still dinner and drinks and parties and, you know, you're out till three in the morning. And when you have zero money, you still somehow managed to find. You just get by. Yeah, you just get by. Or like you eat before you go to dinner, you know, you make your money.

You know, you make your spaghetti. Like my thing was like noodles and ragu, you know, spaghetti sauce. And then you're like, oh, yeah, I already ate. So then you can just kind of, you know. And I had generous friends or, I meet Adam Gettle. I used to, he used to hire me to like, he used to have photo shoots or at his loft. And he would like hire me to go sit in his loft where I would like work on lyrics and people could have like stolen his piano. I would have noticed.

Yeah. So how do you go from writing lyrics with that kind of music to? to starting to pursue the songwriting world. I mean, I saw the Audre McDonald credit as sort of the first thing that shows up on Wikipedia, which I thought was interesting. And that comes in, this is like 1998. So how do you get a song to her?

And are you like the only writer on that? Oh, I forgot to mention something. And I got a publishing deal from Rogers and Hammerstein during that period. for very little money. I forgot because I just remember that actually. And as I was trying to be an actress and a singer and slam, slam, slam, never could get a break.

I had like five songs. And so Adam, my friend was like, I'll get you an interview there. And the lady's like, I'll meet you, but we don't really, you know, sign songwriters. And then she said, I want to sign you. So it was like this tiny deal. And I never got any cuts from up. But they, that was enough money. That was a lot of money if you think about what my overhead was.

That's incredible. It's like 15 grand or something. I mean, that's like getting signed to Lennon and McCartney. It was amazing and they wanted to, at that point, I thought my songs were pop. And I listened back to them now. I mean, they weren't pop at all. Were they super theatrical? They were super like art songy.

What do you mean by that? Yeah, like way to, I guess theatrical is a good way to put it. Did you want to be the artist? No. When did you know that? Because here you are singing and then you're also writing, but yet you don't want to At that point in my life I wanted to be in musical theater

I wanted to be a performer but I never wanted to be a recording artist You just happen to be good at writing lyrics So on the side Yeah and then I just started writing lyrics And I was looking for songs Like to perform for myself Like funny songs and stuff like that

But as a performer Like cabaret more than Wanted to get a record deal Sure I never was trying to get a record deal And but all But it's important to say that all this time my passionist

was always, you know, Johnny Mitchell and Lauren Nero and the Beatles and just pop music. Then it was like so much, I missed so much because I was listening to a lot of theater for a long time. So, and at that point, and I'm not going to name names, but there

was a pretty big songwriting community in New York City, but I could not get a co-write. I could not get arrested. I tried so hard, like for years, you know, before I moved back here in 1997, so towards like 94 95, 96 with some of these people

and I could not get a chance nobody would write with me finally there's a girl named Tanya Leia who you know was a very very talented country writer and we wrote a few songs which is part of like the story

of how it happened did you feel discriminated against was there like a misogyny situation no why did they I think it was more like, which I think is so funny, because that's why I think my career is so strange. And it's only really recently that I've opened up about the way that I started because for

so many years they'd be like, you're too theatrical. She's a theatrical writer. She's a cabaret writer. So I wasn't thought of as a pop writer. So they were like, she's not a pop writer. So I think it's kind of funny that like, if you think about the hits that I've had in the last few years, you kind of think about that people would start with the pop and end up more in the other world. usually goes and then they're writing shows and stuff but it's gone the complete exact opposite yeah the exact opposite and i hope some day to write a musical because i feel like i have that ability but i just nobody they just didn't think of me that way and they when they

heard the songs that i had they said these songs are theatrical and just out of pop writer and did you ever train to do music no nothing zero so it was all just i'm a fan of this and learning from the actual albums learning from just doing and not even realizing that I I don't know, I just wrote lyrics and then, you know, and I would be very aggressive with, you know, this guy, John Bechina who's an incredible composer and with Adam

and Steven Schwartz, I mean, I would be like, here's a cassette, you know, or here's the lyric, like, check out my lyric. Like, can we write together? But those were the only people that I knew. And like I said, the pop people, and there was a big pop community there. I couldn't get his chance.

And, but I bring up Tanya because that's part of my story. I just You know I'm not She was in Nashville No she was in She was in New York

But she's to go to Nashville a lot Yeah she's still incredible writer And I I bet I saw her at They used to do the songwriting Circle I think they still do

At the It's a famous famous club On Bleaker And I saw her And I just had this strong I've had like Some psychic things I'm like

I have to write with her And I literally Like stalked her and we wrote some songs together and I had a similar experience of like I want to write pop songs I want to move back to LA and write pop songs I don't know anybody I don't know what to do

and interestingly enough at the time I was at BMI I switched to ASCAP when I moved here and ASCAP paid performances for the circus but BMI didn't so I was going to BMI I mean I don't know if this is relevant but asking you know can you help

you know can you match it and one day I got like a check it was 12,000 check and at that point of my life it might have been 1.2 million and then I literally was laying in my little bed with my no closet in little Italy and I heard and I was like should I move to L.A. I don't know anybody and I heard a voice that a voice literally said to me move to L.A. just like that and I sat up in my bed and I said okay and then I got the $12,000 check there's your musical and I know $12,000 check You don't say that epiphany

I was just like All right I'm on a journey Let's go And I just did it You know How soon after that Did you go to L.A.?

Pretty quickly Like within a month Well I just did a big post on Facebook Because it was 20 years ago On June 11 It was 20 years Yeah And I mean

And I had We moved within a year of each other That's so funny Well I had You know I had made some trips to L.A. And Marsha Malam It was a big writer at the time

She had given me a shot I had written a couple songs with people, but I really didn't know anybody here. I had no idea how I was going to break in. And it's important to say, I think a lot of the top liners now that break in, a lot of them have really great voices. And it's a big plus I can sing. I have a decent voice, but I never had that voice. So it was always harder. But of our guests that tend to be that side of songwriting, by the way, Desmond made me say that I can't say top liner anymore.

more so I shook on it and I'm going to be a man in my word so that side of songwriting we had you know Evan who's not you know an a list singer we have j cash not an a list singer you know you look at the best writers in the world and so many of them aren't a list singers they're just really good writers those are totally different jobs you're right and I think sometimes you have to be a better writer if you're not because I think there are some people that get in the door because they have incredible voices and it's a plus. That's not to say they're not incredible writers as well.

Did you find you needed to write with somebody who could translate it better and recording? When I first started, we used to hire demo singers. But I moved back to L.A. with nothing. I mean, I had that 12th out. It was enough to get a car

in an apartment. And as soon as I moved back, there was like a songwriting magazine and I saw this entry for this Unisong Music Bridges song contest. And I said on a cassette, and it was the deadline, one song, the song called The Love We Never Made with Tanya Leia,

the song we'd written in New York. And I sent it in thinking, nothing of it. And then Alan Roy Scott is still in front of mine called me and said, not only did we win Best Country Song, but I win the whole contest. And it was a very big contest because the prize was going to Ireland

for a songwriting week with major songwriters, Irish, and ones from L.A. and Nashville and people like Rodney Crowell and writing for a week and then doing it like a concert in Dublin. And that really is that I met, I mean, Rowena Gillespie,

she ended up signing me the Universal. People were like, and I didn't even know at that point that I could like, the way that we write songs now, I'd never done it. And I was like from room to room to room and I could just do it. Like, you know.

This is the LA life. This is, you know, you had already released your, you're kind of done writing music for Audre McDonald at that point, right? And now the goal is like, what do we do with these future songs, right? At this point, you're like, okay, you're walking to a room. Who are you writing for, I guess is my question. Because before you had, like, I need to write lyrics knowing how Stephen Schwartz writes musicals, I need to write lyrics that he might respond to.

You know, you move out here. Who's your audience? Well, first of all, it's important to say that I discovered around this time that the melodies I was hearing with the lyrics were good. So that's when I started doing melody and lyric, which I'm proud to say Topliner. I happen to like the expression Topliner. So sorry. All right, then I'll shake hands. So I'll always call it a Topliner. I like it.

It's just a fair weather. I like Topliner. No, I think that, look, there's some. something very specific about it and very clear. That's why I like. I used to say lyrics. Well, what's interesting is because of this

camp and the people that I was doing a lot of R&B music, I say R&B because it really was R&B at the time. And that was my first, like, co-writes were in R&B. And I even had some, this

guy who I don't remember his name, say, I want to manage you and take me to a meeting. at Big John's office. This was still, I think, maybe 1998, who said, I want to sign you right now. And I didn't, and I always sort of wonder what would have happened and slightly regret that decision. But it was because I was being loyal to this woman,

Rwanda Gillespie, at Polygram at the time, and I felt like she'd helped me since the camp. And so I'm very loyal. Are you loyal to a fault? Maybe, but it's just who I am. I'll never change that. So I'll always remember that moment And so my first, I wouldn't say cuts

Because at that point we had cuts but didn't come out Actually I had a single on Monica That was probably one of my first big things But then it didn't go But my first things were like all like in the R&B world Wow And it was a big That's way opposite

That's what I'm saying But that was always In my heart I always was like a pop girl I just I've always gone where the opportunities are Do you think that's because you were raised in L.A. versus New York? That had he been raised in New York, you would naturally be a theater girl. I don't know. I just know that I've always been obsessed.

You know, it's just what I feel like I do or I love. And it's also where the opportunities are. I also realize that cabaret pays nothing. And pop music, you can actually make a living. But it's also, it's not even that. It's following my heart and just doing... Well, there's also money at that time in the music business where they can

take a risk, they can sign a new writer who has no cuts and give them kind of significant money. I mean, probably more than the $12,000 you got. I missed all that. I missed the years of where... I just missed it, where, you know, you run a Backstreet Boys record and made millions from

the sales at the album tracks. I never had like a huge publishing deal. When I got my publishing deal, I did really didn't have cuts. It was not a lot of money. And I had to live on, and I had a release commitment. So the first check I got, which was not that much, had to last me for three years. I mean, I still had no money and was in terrible debt. And then I had it thought, okay, so I can either live off credit cards and go into debt or go get like a waitress job or something. And I just

decided to let go into debt. That's my my personal favorite quote that I ever had was when I was foreclosing on my house or they were foreclosing on my house and I was saying like I'd rather I'd rather sell my condo to live my dream than to sell my dream to live in my condo wow I love that and there was just that moment

of if they're going to take it they're going to kick me out that's fine but like what else am I going to do I mean I literally have zero training in anything other than music at that time you know oh it's a good time like I now have training but I don't

I have no I can't I literally don't know how to do anything else. So you have this deal it's through Universal. So it was Polygram at the time and then it became universal. That was my first deal. That lasted a long time. But the big hit, the first real big hit

is the Nick Lachet one, right? Or is there one before that? The first big hit was incomplete by the backstreet place. Oh, that's before Nicoschette. And so this was like seven years. Oh, I guess that's the tail end of them selling. Right, because I wasn't. I

did get a couple big cuts. I had like an anesthesia cut and like Clay Aiken. It had some big cuts where records were selling like $5 million, but I missed the $30 million and the $20 million. I missed that. And then I didn't have singles. I used to call myself the hitless wonder. Because I was getting a nice amount of cuts

then, but I couldn't get a single. And the incomplete was it like it was an accidental single. Because I had written it with Dan Mukula and Jess Kates and we were all kind of unknown and Teresa Labarra White's amazing. because she'll always let the producer produce a song.

So Dan produced a song, and the label wanted, like, a known entity. They wanted Max or Diane Warren or somebody to have the single, and apparently it got leaked. I hope this is true because this is what I was told, to radio, and it just sort of exploded on its own. It just became the single of its own accord. Amazing.

And that was the first one, and that was life-changing for me. Yeah. And I still love that song. I have to say, some of our songs, we cringe now, but that one is still like, incomplete we were playing it so loud in our house yesterday because I was playing and I hear

my wife and you know the next room over singing along being like wait wait why are you listening to that I was like Lindy wrote that she was no way I'm so very very proud of that song the big and I and Jess Kate's I was writing partner for like 10 years just to two of you

with we were sort of a team And then we met E-Man And that was a big, big chapter You know, you know, that's You meet Jess when you first move out here? No It was a So bad

I think it was about Maybe it was 2000 or something This was like Been doing the R&B stuff And then I met Jess And we just really, through Daryl Brown Who's, I love and is amazing And we just clicked

And then, you know, this is my thing I just started saying, okay, this is where we're going today. This is where we're going tomorrow. I just set up all of our sessions and we had... So all those cuts are basically you two together. Us two together. Well, incomplete. And then we started working with E-Man.

We met E-Man. And I remember meeting E-Man and E-Man, and I had this weird like, oh, like I know you or something. Or I meant to ride with you. Yeah, because you're, you know, that's obviously before you're about to have some crazy runs with that guy. Oh, yeah. But I discovered him. he'll, I've said this a million times, I discovered E-Man. And then Teresa said, I want you and just to work with Nick Lechay, who do you want to bring in?

And I was like, I want to give this guy E-Man a shot. How did you hear his music that you were like, I'm going to go on? I hadn't heard his music. And at this point, I was just really open. I still, I'll always be open to like trying people. And we had been introduced. There was another writer who we'd written with. Who said, do you want to work with this guy E-Man?

Like what producer? And I'm like, yeah. And then when I worked with them, we just completely, completely clicked. Yeah. And that's like 2006 or so, right? 2005? It might have been like around 2005. I know he said it was just been like 11 or 12 years.

So yeah, it was around that time. It was after incomplete. So yeah. This is after, because after you have a Backstreet Boy single, kind of still in their primish years, you're still like, I can imagine you could get in, get any producer, right? Not yet. No, it wasn't because

I think it wasn't the same as it is now where everybody knows who wrote it and everybody or what, I don't know why but it still, it wasn't like the doors were flying open. It was an incredible moment for me and it definitely changed my life, but it just wasn't that moment yet.

And then we wrote what's left to me with Eman. And it's so funny how I've gone through different career things of like, well, this is what she writes. At that point it was like she writes big boy band ballads, which I thought was so funny because I knew that I'd come from, everything else that I'd come from.

But this has happened many times in my career. And now I think finally people are confusing. I guess she just writes a lot of different stuff. Yeah, write songs. You go from theater to R&B to a huge big... But I was a closet theater writer because I really had to downplay that for a long time. Right. So I finally came out as a cabaret theater.

It's really funny. Being my start. Between Nick Lachey and Skyscraper, there's like a lot of cuts that happen. But the first time I wasn't in the music industry or wasn't in the pop side of the music industry. I was in a band during all the mid, all the 2000s. And right when I start getting into songwriting,

skyscraper happens. But I don't know if there's anything else I should talk about before we get to skyscraper. I mean, there were singles. There was, I mean, there was, I started working with Toby Gad, who became a very big, and still is a big co-writer of mine. And I remember, again, like, begging him, Pete Ganbarg introduced us at the Ask Cap Awards. It's like, you should write with Toby, and Toby's like, here's my card.

And I, like, stalked him. And came to New York, and the first song, we wrote Selena Cut, and then Jordan Spars cut the second song. And that, and so I had, and I had like another single. on Demi called Here We Go Again. I mean, there were... That might have been after. It was before. It was before.

So there was some singles. There was a Bree Larson single, which is so crazy. She ended up being an Oscar-winning actress. And a lot of cuts. A lot more... There was another Backstreet single, Inconsolable, which is embarrassing. I know incomplete inconsolable.

It was an accident. It was never supposed to be Backstreet Boys. But I had like nine songs on that record. So there was a point with... E-Man, this was before Evan, the Evan E-Man era, this was with jazz skates where, you know, we had a lot of stuff on Backstreet Boys.

We had, you know, a lot of American Idol stuff. When you were saying the 10 years with one co-writer, was it sort of a divorce at the end of it? Or was it just sort of like, you know what, I'm going to just, I'm writing, I met Toby, I'm going to write with Toby, I met E-Man, I'm going to write with E-Man. Yeah, this has been, even,

yeah, Derek Bramble was even, and, and, and, um, Damon Sharp were actually even before Jess as I'm thinking. No, it was always a natural thing like, I mean, I had my first, Anastasia and Faith Hill was with Derek and then with Damon, we had Monica

and we had some big cuts. But no, it really was just, I think he moved back to Nashville and, you know, we're still great friends. There was never a falling out from me moving in and out of new groups of people. It's just been just sort of like, then, you know, you get a little tapped out

or sometimes you've been working with each other for so long, and then something feels fresh. I've always liked, so I also travel a great deal of writing because I like to mix it up and I like new people and new energy I always have. So no, I think just moved back to Nashville. He had kids and just decided that was a better place for him to live

and he was very into worship music and different kinds of things. And I also think that was an issue too because I'm kind of a dirty girl. So I wanted to get into some other stuff. It's really sure. I know, but it's true. People should have studio

Tourette so I can be pretty bad. That's awesome. I'm trying to think if that's maybe when Eman and I started working with Evan. I think that was the next big thing. But that's after. Skyscraper. Okay, skyscraper. So skyscraper was a to be... The reason why I bring up that songs, because to me,

I think that's, you know, top 10 to 20 songs that people still kind of reference in meetings where they're like, well, we need something like skyscraper. we need that moment. And that thing, to me, you know, it wasn't, it's not your biggest song on radio or anything like that. But that song seems to be maybe the most identifiable by name of anything, maybe, you know, as big as any song of anyone we've talked to.

It feels like it has that kind of presence. Yeah, I feel like that's. songs become like a little bit iconic and it's also important of like all the things that I've seen where people were like, this song saved my life or I didn't throw up today because of the song or I didn't harm myself because of the song which is

the most important reason to write songs but I think it took a minute for that song. Okay I and this goes back to Chobigat I met Chobigat in New York and our first two songs got cut so then he started to give me shots at things and he had me Flo Natty

did work with Curley, an artist named Curley So we wrote skyscraper for Curley and the real truth of it is that I had the word skyscraper in my head as an interesting, and this almost never has happened to me because I'm very much get my titles in the room. I walked in there and said, I have an idea

to write a song called skyscraper. And Toby said, I don't like that title. It doesn't sing. And Curly was drawing pictures and thinking about her childhood. And then it just got very emotional. he just started playing that thing in the piano and it just kind of poured out.

The song just happened. And I mean, when I think about it, yeah, it's based on things that I've been through. It's based on things that Curley's been through. Toby's been through, like, unbelievable stuff. I mean, you'll have to have them here. Like, lean years like you can't believe. So it was written from a very, very real place.

But the inspiration was one of the only times in my career that I had a title and just a concept of like what that meant. Did you know it was great? I knew it was great. And I never, the Incomplete was the same. Going back to Incomplete, that song took a couple years. It didn't take it a couple years, but the A&R person at the time passed on it. And I knew, I knew it so strongly about that song.

And when they got a new A&R person, I was like, resend it, resend it. And with Skyscraper, first Curly did it, and then she got dropped. And I knew, I just said, I know there's something so special about this song. And then Jordan Sparks cut the song. and it just wasn't a great fit at that time because I think she's incredible I've had a lot of cuts with Jordan didn't make it

and was like sitting around and there were some people that wanted to cut it that we said no to and then I didn't even know that Ben Groff had played it for John Lind and at the time I was like Demi Lovato because at the time she was like the pop Disney pop princess

I didn't know she was going through rehab and these incredible things so this was like two years later and then when I saw the video and heard her version of the song, I just, like, cried my eyes out. It was like that song had been written for her and for that moment.

And I think that's an important part about why the song is what it is. It's because it spoke to what she had been through and what I'd been through, what we'd all been through. Right. It seemed to open up... It seemed like that was the beginning of

consistency for you where you're starting to get songs that, annually that just kind of become part of that great American songbook. I mean, it's really short after that, maybe even that same year that Hot Shell Ray comes out, right? The next year, I think, with Tonight Tonight, which is an unknown band on a label at the time that was kind of struggling.

And it took a year. And that song ends up becoming, I remember finding out when it had just passed sitting on the dock of the bay for, I was with I think Eman and Evan, your co-writers on Evan Bogart who we had on this but I'm pretty sure it passed sitting on the dock of the bay for performances,

total performances. Wow. I didn't even know that. It was crazy if that's true. It was some crazy thing like that, you know? And it's, tell me about the process of a song from nothing to blowing up so big

that, you know, it almost inevitably makes the band a one-hit wonder because it's impossible to follow that up. So, I mean, that song is just like, did you know at that time that that song is, this is, we're on, we have an A-list song, we can choose who we have cut it? I mean, what's the process of writing that song

and how it gets to where it gets? Well, that began my, that's when Jess moved back and that began sort of a two-year, like, pretty exclusive with Eman and Evan and there was where we were just right those lyrics are very much Evan and I I mean hot show Ray came in later and then they changed some stuff and made it their own but at the time the three of us

like those silly kind of lyrics it was that it was It Girl for Jason DeRillo and it was classic which also broke MKTO so we were doing these really clever funny and then of course she does that but it was a period of time I didn't know like I did not know that tonight tonight like when it started and we were like laughing we're like it got one spin you know and then little by little you know the whole song just from that but we just didn't see we were like it's an unknown band but we it took a year

i mean i think it went number one like on hot i see it took a year classic also i think took like a year so we just had this magic period where just everything we were writing was like singles and evan and i had this lyrical style that was still i think very unique like those songs are just, were a unique group of songs that were very, very different. Were you patient during that year? Do you follow charts?

Are you following this for a year? I was, I think I got so burnt out on following charts because you get so obsessed and you can't control it and then I started to realize that it comes in really high and then the research hasn't happened and then it drops down and then you, you know, I used to

just have anxiety attacks for weeks watching the charts and I think I finally came to a point where it's like this is not healthy I mean I still would and it's not as easy as it is now where you you know you can look at media base and really really see

or exactly all the different things but it was an incredible that was an incredible run and like then it got me out of the big ballads like I still love running big ballads by the way but think about incomplete it was left to me skyscraper now you're into it girl and classic and tonight tonight and he's like

quirky pop funny pop songs Right Well I mean speaking of pop stuff You then end up having You know one One direction cuts Right in the beginning

Before they really blow up You know One of the things that I like about your discography Is that you're always in first Like you always seem to be with these people Not always I feel like other people You got to Demi before people got to Demi

You got to Slina Before people got to Slina And you got to One Direction You know, I mean, is that just coincidence with all those? I think for me, I've been lucky with the producers. I think I've met amazing producers who have brought me into opportunities. Steve Robson, we have a bite-up, but I did several of the One Direction songs.

They were with Toby and with Steve Robson. Were you flying to love, Steve? Were you flying to London? Well, what happened was the first ones were Toby. There were two with Toby, where they were just like these kids that came to Toby, and they were like this band. I don't even know if they were signed.

Nobody knew what was going to happen. Taken that was on the first record. I think it was like the demo that they put in the record. Toby was just like, oh, there's this boy band. Do you want to come and write? Like nobody had any idea. So you went one direction. Were you in the room with that?

Yeah, it was all of them. And I still think about the million dollars that could have made because they were all shirtless out by the pool at Toby. I was like, why didn't I snap that picture? TMZ. Oh, my God. And they were adorable and they were great. And they would, you know, come in and say,

we like this, we don't like that, they had ideas. But then, I'm trying to think when I first met Steve, because I've written a lot of songs with Steve. And you had, you had a lot of songs with One Direction. I had, I think, four, because then Steve and I had two. And he also, we also had five seconds of summer. That was the first, like, co-write, I think, that they had. They were in London, like, with shivering

because they, like, didn't bring jackets, and it was winter. And Steve and I wrote the first group of songs with them. And that was Steve. Again, so, like, I think I was really fortunate to have producers that would bring me into these amazing situations and opportunities. Yeah. I mean, it's just an amazing thing to watch, Doors. See, when you're with an artist and no one knows who they are, and then does then see them become a household name. Oh, unbelievable.

It's shocking to watch that. And great people, too, which is nice and talented. You then end up for another sort of phase in New York. career, if you go for the next one, you then end up kind of with some EDM stuff because you have really Selena Gomez's slowdown is kind of more EDM in a way. And then you end up with the get a dangerous, which is a whole other thing. But let's start with the, you know, slowdown. It becomes a kind of Selena's first real radio hit, isn't it? Like not not radio, not Disney radio, but like that was like a real maybe the first real popper.

Yeah, it might have been. It might have been. No, I think it was, I forget what it was called. But it was right around that time. It was one of the first. Maybe it was the first. Well, that brings us into the Julia Michaels period, where there was like a couple of years.

This was sort of after the Eman Evan. And of course, I still work with Eman and Evan. But it just sort of shifted into a new thing. And I have a friend named Jolene Bell. It was a wonderful writer. and she had developed and worked in work with Julia for years. And I heard Julia's voice and I just like, this girl's incredible. I heard her on a demo and I was like, can I use her on a demo?

And then I was like, do you mind if I co-write her? I mean, I really have to give a shout out to Jolene because she spent, you know, I think four or five years really developing her. And she had some of her first opportunities with Jolene. But then I heard her and just said, I just had a feeling. I need to write with this girl. And so the first song we wrote, I think, the second song we wrote DemiCut. It was called Fire Sartar.

And then the second one was slow down. And that's how that EDM stuff happened because of Julia's voice. So we were getting a lot of opportunities where she was singing. Like we had some semi-big EDM hits just because our thing was just get into the room and just like write, you know, to a track or whatever. And then they would hear her voice. It was a song called Surrender and Invincible, and it was just this whole period of Julia. Your method as a writer had to evolve so much to go from the Backstreet Boys' style

of sort of discipline and syllables and all that stuff. I've never, ever been a disciplined syllables person, ever. So how did you get to, well, that would make sense. I mean, for Julia, that was so important for her to be herself. Were you encouraging her to do that then? I've always closed my eyes and just seeing what came out. I'm the most unprepared writer.

That's why skyscraper was so unique. But it was only the word. The song came from the chords and the feeling and the emotion. I've always been coming from emotion. I've never been about syllables or technical or the course should come here or it has to be like that. It's always been just like, what am I feeling? very visceral

when I start thinking to me. Do you find that that's unique or is that? I don't know if it's unique. It's the only way that I can write. It's the only way that I like to write. And I think the songs and the style of songs a lot have come from the producers and the artists and the time maybe.

So, I mean, I think when we started, we were awesome. We were with EDM producers. And with Julia, I think what I really taught her and she said this a lot in articles was she would come in with an idea on a paper and I was like, let's talk about what's happening in our lives and there was always

like boy trouble with both of us and I would be like let's just both take turns on the mics and just close our eyes and sing stuff and then we would just like comp it and be like okay let's use I would make a joke and say we'll comp it and then we use your melodies and like a lot of times you always used her melodies and I would do a lot of the lyrics but now you know

she's developed her own style which is very much hers but I think I helped her and guided her and that's just what we did the stuff that we did together It was just what we did together. It wasn't like a thinking thing. Sure. You have in your, I'm just going to the next sort of writing phase.

Because what's cool about your career is that you've managed to have a lot of songs that been cut by pitching. You're not necessarily in the room all the time with the artists. Almost never. Almost never. That's super unique for someone to have as long of a discography as yours. And to have been with so many different producers and so many different producers and so many different co-writers is pretty unique compared to

it's becoming apparent just from this conversation because first you look at somebody's discography but you don't necessarily recognize all the ancillary people who make these songs happen so it's really fascinating I mean you you at some point go from

Julia to then the next group of people which is this new this new community of Ian Kirkpatrick and which I know it's all extended family but Ian and the Monsters and Strangers

and Jason Evigan and Sam Martin That was the new Well it sort of happened And I want to go back to say the only Artist I ever wrote a hit in the room Was Nick Lechay Who was part of was left to me Every other scene was pitched

And then the artist Even with all the Drulow stuff Would come back in later and make it their own Right always it's been I think very unusual that way. Does Dangerous come before Want to Want Me? Yes. Okay, so let's go with that first.

Okay. So is that the first song you wrote with? With Sam and with... No. Ian? What happened was, Julie and I had gone to this writer's camp in Santa Barbara, and we had such a great time.

And so we were working then with Jason and Mitch, and we said, let's do our own writers camp, Mitch Allen. And we decided to also invite Sam Martin, who I think I'd written one song with, that nothing happened with at APG, and Ian Carpatrick, who I think I'd written one song with that Julia demoed. And we rented a house in Lake Arrowhead, and the six of us went there, bought our own food, no assistance, no nothing. And we did, I think, about five of these camps. And Want to Want Me was written at one of these camps. and just from that's how I

met those guys and started writing a bunch with those guys and then I think just from Dangerous was very lucky for me because Ian and Jason were in the studio I'll never forget this and they were like called me because we had just done a camp so I was very fresh in their mind and I mean

yes I'm a top liner but I think I'm probably most sought after for lyrics and they called me it was like 8 o'clock at night and I was like you guys why are you calling me you know I hate to work a night And they're like, we're just stuck on this lyric. Can you just come over to the studio? And I'm like, fine.

They're like, so I just went over there and they had like, just knocked out the lyric. Boom. It was like a. That was a worldwide number one. Worldwide number one. Much in the U.S. I know. It was huge.

It was huge. It was just the, I always say that was one of the luckiest days in my life. That song made up for other songs that, of course, you know, you feel like there are songs you write a lot of and the people don't contribute as much or whatever. But this one, I just got lucky that they had. They had the melody and they needed lyrics and we knocked it out and didn't think anything of it. But I think Want to Want Me was around the same time because I think there, a lot of people wanted to cut that song. We had a big battle because Chris Brown really wanted that song.

They were going to send a helicopter to bring us to where he was for him to make the changes on it. And then we always wanted Jason to have it. and then he did his tweaks on it. But that really helped to redefine him. I mean, I've had so many Jason, people are like, what's with Jason Drew? Well, that was, I mean, that's my next thing. You end up with three, four, five straight,

five straight Jason Derulo singles. I know, and all just coincidental. A white Jewish girl. I don't understand it. Whenever I see him, we just like hugged and we're like, I love you. Like, it's just this weird thing. I mean, It Girl was just, that was a whole other style

But yeah, I mean, Want to Want Me was just one of those songs And I mean, I have to say that broke Ian And Ian and Ian's production is insane And Sam's insane That was just a great mix of what we all did And that was a big lesson for me Because this is a funny thing about Want To Want Me When we were in Lake Arrowhead

The song was called Girl From New York City Oh, I got a girl in New York City which I thought was just so cool and clever and Ian and Sam were like we need to get back and rewrite that and Mitch was part of the song too but they were like we need to get back and rewrite that and I'm like I love it

they're like it's terrible so when I came up with the lyric want to want me I thought that was just so terrible coming from where I'd come from well coming from where I'd started and skyscraper and Audrey McDonald and I was just like it's so and Sam was like no it's great

so it was a lesson in, you know, in simplicity of that lyric and the right melody. I just, it was, that song was a big lesson for me. Being conversational in pop is a whole other thing that being conversational in, in theater. Because, you know, or, you know,

you go to a theater, you have to walk away singing the song, and every lyric has to tell part of the story. Or it's just down. If you go and you, do you sing want to want me in the middle of a musical? It's going to sound, it would just sound weird. But you go and sing girl, you know, I'm in love with a girl in New York City could totally be just an incredible, you see that song. And Want to Want Me is an emotion and it's a feeling. It was, I learned a huge lesson from that song.

And I have to really credit Sam and Am because they really drilled it in my head and I like finally got it. Like I got even though I've never like I said been a thinking writer it sort of changed something in me of saying okay like the conversational and certain Mike Karen rules

that we talked about in the Mike Karen interview it was just it was a good lesson of the difficulty of simplicity and setting up the picture and the furniture in the verses I mean we spent a long time in that song I mean usually songs fly out of me very quickly

how do you feel about when Cheyenne comes out following just a giant smash like Want to Want to Want Me Cheyenne try me and if it ain't love Are all Well if it ain't love is the next thing Mid charters at best Yeah

Like how does that How do you How does that affect you as a writer Or do you not Or is just sort of like None of this matters Because want to want me is like I've always fly by the scene in my pants

I mean none of those songs were even written like, you know, I was really lucky that I was Monsters and Strangers. It was the same thing. If it ain't love that Jason called me like, we're stuck on a lyric, can you come to the studio? Cheyenne was an accident of us just like like it being around Christmas time and there were like

eight of a seven of a ceremony like let's just all write this on together. Just for fun, let's just write a song and see what happens. But no, I think I'm just not a, I don't think about stuff like that. So I wasn't watching things like, oh my God, this has to be a hit. Like I think, or maybe I'm fortunate enough that I'm at the point now where

I think want to want me, put me in a new position that I'm extremely grateful for where I don't quite have to worry as much. I mean, I want to still be relevant. I mean, I have a song coming out on Andrea Day that I'm extremely proud of, which I feel is going, it's a song called Amen that I can't wait for everybody here. You've heard that song.

So I think this song. may be another new era and I've started to go back to Nashville like I started to you know and going to London more and something fingers crossed on well we'll see other credible artists that I've been coming kind of

back into that now I've sort of not gone full circle but just kind of wanting to write more sophisticated lyrics again but I'm open for anything like I'm always up for anything and I think that's part of my longevity I love writing fun pop songs

I can't wait for rock to come back. I love going to Nashville. I still love soul, R&B. You don't really call it rhythmic. I don't do like really urban songs. That's the only thing that I don't do. But it explains, should explain to people how valuable somebody who writes lyrics is

and there are somebody who's willing to also evolve with time because lyrics, you know, you're not writing songs right now, talking about shorty, shorty this, surety that. Do you know what I mean? You have to listen to it.

Like you were talking about conversational, there was a time where stuff was more poetic. Right. And now songs are very conversational. I think you have to follow your own heart and be willing to start the new trend.

But you also want to listen to what's out there and hopefully be inspired and influenced by it. Well, we've been, and we've worked with a lot of producers and a lot of producers in, you know, in your discography who had moments because that sound was so relevant at that time.

And it just takes so much effort to move the needle sonically. And a lot of people just don't, you get, you know, you get comfortable. And you don't have the same drive you had when, you know, when you're living in a place for $300 a month and, you know, eating spaghetti and ragu, it's hard to convince somebody who lives in a nice house in the hills to keep struggling to find that drum sound. Yeah.

Well, I mean, I agree. I think sometimes top liners have a better shot at longevity because we can just always be with the new producers or the new artists and what we do is kind of what we do. It's the sonics and the landscape that make it sound current.

Yeah. I think more than anything. But I've never lost my my drive to create. I've lost a little bit of the desperation because I think, you know, being Jewish, we always have to be a little bit desperate. Do they like me? Are they going to call me? Do they still like me? But I still have this huge, like yesterday, I was so excited about the song I wrote yesterday because it was something that was inspired by real life events and I was like bursting to write this song. Love it. Yeah. And I just still feel like there's so much in me that

wants to be expressed. And that's what it's always been. I know in the last year you had some really interesting things happen also where you had a Eurovision song. Well that was just like that was crazy. There's a song that I wrote at the French Castle like five years ago that was just a matter of me of

a publisher, one of my publishers Cobalt Smanche in Berlin saying send me everything and song. Just everything I could think of. I just sent sent, sent, sent, sent, sent and they just happened to pick this song. That's a different thing. that people don't know what that is in the U.S. Can you explain what Eurovision is?

Well, it's a massive, it's, I guess it is a song contest. Yeah, it's also about an art, it's both about an artist and a sign. I mean, it's, it's beyond massive. It's almost like what Formula One is outside of the U.S. or soccer

is outside of the U.S. It's so big that it's hard to explain what it is, that when the winner of Eurovision happens, it's on the cover of every newspaper throughout the world except for the US. It's like American Idol Times a thousand. It's hard, yeah, it's

massive. Was that, were there opportunities because of that that have arisen or is that more just that was just a cool thing to witness? You know what it is is that because of that and because Dangerous was so big in Germany like I'm going to be going to Berlin to do some writing. So it

just gives me a bit of a presence in Berlin. I have a presence in London. I have a couple things happening in Nashville. So those things are important to just keep you relevant in different territories because I really, really enjoy traveling and riding trips. I find it very inspiring and I've had

it. Yeah, it's just fun and great things. Like my two left. Well, it's why you do this anyway, though. So experience life in a unique way. Yes, I love going into a room and spending the day with people that I like and eating lunch and creating. Like, I feel so grateful.

I mean, I'm not, I really, really do all the time that I get to do it still. that people still are calling. I mean, are there hotter, shiny and new pennies? Hell yeah. But, you know, if you want tried and true, it's like, call Indy. I like that.

That's awesome. That should be your theme sounds like 1-8-88-18-8. 1-8-8-8-8-8. 1-8-8-8. I'm going to lose five people. And just tell me what comes, the first thing that comes to your head. Okay.

Jason Derulo. Money in the bank. Thank you, Jason. Love that. An incredible voice and falsetto. Let's go back and do Audrey McDonald. Just tears from her talent. And yeah.

She moves me. I've seen her on stage. She moves me. Her music director is my cousin. It's the only other musician in my entire family is a guy named Ted Spirling. I know Ted Spirling. because he was part of the Roger and Hammerstein family

when I had my deal there. He is my... Oh my God. We're related anyway, I'm sure. That's pretty cool because I've always said that. I've said, you know, the only other person in my family

has won multiple Tony Awards, the only other musician in my family. And we know each other peripherally, but not really. And it's just sort of one of those things of when you view something as attainable, you reach for it. So if you think that you can

try to win Tony's, And you go, okay, well, then, yeah. Exactly. That's why I was writing those songs back then, because those were the people I knew. And I've always been one to say the opportunities that I have, whether it's dance country or whatever. Let's go with E-Man and Evan Bogart. Lunch, number one, lunch, laughing and torturing me.

Lunch. Lunch. Just like the brothers that tease you more than ever. And talent and just craziness. Yeah. Like zaniness. Yeah. I'll go with this.

I got to go the whole crew. I got to go Ian Monsters and Strangers, Jason Evigan and Sam Martin. You know, challenging in a good way. Because Sam and Ian, especially, because I wrote a lot of songs with them, they pushed me to change the way that I wrote. And I'm stubborn. I mean, so did Eman and Evan in a different way. actually but it just changed they changed me in a good way and they challenge me and sometimes i wanted to kill them and i love them so much for that it was a different yeah when i see them

yeah 45 minutes yeah i'm gonna be like you know and lindy said and love and so much they give me so much love i mean i mean that genuinely all these people they're fantastic but this is that the generation thing that we talk about a lot where this is a different generation in the music business. There is a lot more emotion in this. It feels like everyone's much more familial. And I mean, I was in bed. My wife's asleep and I'm on a text chain with Ian and J. Cash last night until like

1230 making jokes, which I can't say. Oh, course. You know, it's a fact that it's a different generation. There is genuine love throughout the whole community. All of them. they're a big part of it. Yeah, and things that aren't about music. Jason Avigan and I, like, we just, you know, these really deep,

we have these deep spiritual conversations and just, you know, and Ian and I would just be like, I love you, I miss you. I mean, there's real love. Sam also, like, there's real love and friendship and support and support for success that we have with other people that I think is really, really nice. Totally. You know?

My last one, I got to say, Julia Michaels. Okay. I'm, it's, it's bittersweet. Mostly, I'm so proud of her. I think that she's an astonishing talent. I really had a huge part in her breaking through her first opportunities, bringing her to her manager, getting her first cuts. But mostly it's pride that I really just showed her that she could do what she already knew what to do.

because her style is her own style. Like nobody else does that. And I think what I did was just give her the confidence to just do what she does and nobody else does. And I miss her. You know, she's partnered up with Justin and she's, you know, we've all moved on to our other things. I mean, when I see her, it's a love fest. But so a little bittersweet, but mostly just incredible pride and. I love that.

Yeah. Well, thank you for doing this. You know, the industry is filled with those people who do come in and are a shiny new penny who, you know, you leave them on a sidewalk after a while, you know. It's just sort of what it is. And you have all these people who come in with ulterior motives who want to be famous, who want to do all these different things. Maybe they're trendy, all these things.

get them in the door but don't keep them in the room and for you to continue you're in so many rooms any one of these co-writers would welcome you back into their room all you have to do is be like I write with a lot of them still

and he's still right with Toby I write with Eman and Evan Ian Sam but that says a lot because they can easily say no they could easily go and move on they could find another another penny to go right with but they don't.

They still are. It's like, no, if Jason Derulo is hitting you up and Audra McDonald's can hit you up, you know, if you can go and have that career, I'm pretty sure as a writer, you can't have a more successful kind of discography and experience traveling the world,

doing music in Eurovision that was written in a castle in France. It just sounds fake. It sounds like you're making this up as you go. but you're not, you're just nice and you're fun to spend time with and so people want to write with you and you're, it's fortunate that you're also good. So congratulations on everything and thank you. Thank you. Thanks for listening to this episode of And The Writer is.

If you want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed, be sure to check out our Spotify playlist or visit our website at and the writer is.com. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe to us on iTunes. You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter. And The Writer Is, is produced by Joe London, edited by Miles Bergsmah, and published by Big Deal Music. A special thanks to David Silberstein from Mega House Music and Michael White. Until next time, this is Ross Golan.