And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 37: Andy Grammer

Episode Date: December 4, 2017

It is hard to find a songwriter more dedicated to spreading positivity and truth through music than this next guest. He is a multi-platinum hitmaker who is the first male pop star in a decade to reach the Top 10 on Adult Pop Radio with "Keep Your Head Up" and "Fine By Me" off of his debut self titled album. This success paved the road for his follow-up album ‘Magazines or Novels’, featuring his triple-platinum best selling song "Honey, I’m Good". Also featured on the album was his certified gold single "Good to be Alive (Hallelujah)". More recently, his highly anticipated third album, ‘The Good Parts,’ was released just last Friday, which includes his hit "Give Love (feat. LunchMoney Lewis)" as well as charting singles "Fresh Eyes" and "Smoke Clears". And The Writer Is... The genuine, the authentic, Andy Grammer!  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey guys, this is, and the writer is, and I'm your host, Ross Golan. I've written with hundreds of artists and writers over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life, the industry, politics, composition, whatever. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs, and most importantly, who the people are who write the songs. I'm producing this with the Great Joe London, big deal music publishing and mega house music management if you want to listen to the songs we

discuss in this podcast follow us on our socials find out about special events or buy some of our merchandise go to our website www www.andthe writer is.com oh and if you enjoy this podcast please rate us on iTunes or whatever your preferred podcast listening site is we really appreciate that effort welcome to and the writer is I'm your host Ross Golan. Today's friend of the podcast started playing music on Third Street Promenade in Santa Monica, California. A few years later, six of his singles have been certified gold or platinum. He's played halftime shows for nationally televised NFL games, hosted the biggest syndicated morning shows, and danced with the stars. He even played basketball

in the celebrity game over the NBA's All-Star Weekend. This New Yorker sings about fidelity and is an advocate for the poor. In other words, he's a good person when he writes songs and even better when he doesn't. And the writer is, the only grown adult I know who postmates cake pops from Starbucks, Andy Grammer. I feel like, the fact that we got through that

without laughing is good. We're off to a good start. Well, the thing is, I'm also pretty dyslexic, so it's like I read slowly, not because I'm trying to be articulate, but because I am really just a very... slow reader. So I just try to make sure I don't screw up. It's amazing. I knew cake

pop was going to be in the intro. I was just waiting for it. Well, so I guess the story of the cake pop is that we were you know, Andy was about to go on this like sugar this like sugar diet, like no sugar diet. And you were like, so when you're about to go on a diet, you're like, I'm going to eat as much

sugar as I can. Yes. And it was also like midday and we're writing with Ian Kirkpatrick. And And you were like, I want a cake pop. And you postmated cake pops. And we're sitting there waiting for our coffee and cake pops. And we get a phone call from the postmates guy. Because you had ordered the postmate, right?

So you had to negotiate the whole deal. That's what made it amazing. Because he calls and he's like, hello, sir. And you're like, hey. And he's like, they don't have birthday cake, cake pops. So then I have to go, Andy, they don't have birthday cake pops. And you go, well, what kind of cake pops do they have? And I got to be like, I don't know, what kind of cake pops do they have?

And he has to go to the barista. The whole thing is just really. Hey, do you have, what other kind of cake pops do you have? And somehow this just took us into like. It's like you're going back and forth and it's like a telephone of four people. Which is still totally worth it, by the way. I'm sitting over there going like, this is important. Yeah.

I need it. The cake pop was delicious. It was great. It was easily worth it. But it's just funny to make like grown-ass people order cake pops. Before you go on a diet, a sugar diet, anyone who knows, that's very important to give me the cake pop. Do you pinch yourself when you hear an intro like that and you're like, wow, that's kind of a lot of stuff? Are you now so like used to this lifestyle?

I don't think you ever get used to it. I think that it's still so crazy. It's really awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe you should be proud of yourself. Yeah, anytime anybody introses me anywhere, I'm like, wait, really? That's unbelievable.

Yeah. You know, to get to do this is amazing. And to, I feel lucky to have been able to do, like, all the little jobs on the way up, too. To start as a street performer and really kind of feel that and own where you are in that moment. And then luckily get to go play songs around the world is, it's nuts, man. It's totally insane. It's totally crazy. Yeah, it's funny.

I was listening, first of all, I love this podcast. I'm so psych to be here. and when I listen to each person I feel I find myself being like oh yeah I'm totally like that and then there's other things where I'm like I'm totally not like that at all like the Charlie Puth one

that dude's like a superhero right so I felt the need to like tell like for all the up and coming writers you don't need to be like that to have some songs that do really well to do really well like that dude's like oh yeah we like went to you know I was going to church and they sat down and played

the whole thing on the piano it's all I was like I'm I'm in my car listening going like, who the fuck is that? I have no idea what you're talking about. I feel very blue collar when it comes to stuff like that. So yeah, I just want to start. To all the young writers out there, there's also a side of writers that are super ugly ducklings in college and stuff that just through a lot of, I don't know, persistence and luck

and trying hard and not stopping and chasing your point of view, you can still have a really big impact. Well, and there are all these writers, you know, like the J. Cash's and the Justin Tranners like some of these people who live in top 40. Totally. Savin. You know, these people that we've talked to that have at any given time three, four songs than top 40. Yeah.

And it's the volume of quality is so shocking. Unreal. And you're sitting there and you're like, well, I think I'm a good writer. Yeah. But, you know, at best I'm at, like, I'll take one. I'll take two at most. You know? And you still look, if you look at that and you try to compare yourself,

to that. Yeah, I think that that's really what I was just trying to say is that comparing your strengths to other people is always a bad move, you know? Oh, I was this quote. Why do you do that? We all do it. Okay, so there's the, I'm trying to make sure I get this quote right. I forget, I saw it on Twitter somewhere and it was like, the reason we struggle with

insecurity is because we compare our behind the scenes to everybody else's highlight reels. Oh wow. Pretty crazy, right? So like all of our behind the scenes making of our movie, we then see someone else's highlight reel and we're like, oh, mine doesn't look like that. So I'll probably never be like them. But like we all have our own moments and our own strengths and our own things that we bring to the table

that you have to just have to be brave enough to go after it in your own way. I guess it's the thing when people say that they're like, oh, I guess the positive of this podcast is that people are like oh, we didn't know that about the writers. Yeah, we didn't know. Because you're used to seeing that highlight reel,

you know, but... And isn't the whole thing that we do just about our highlight reels? Like how many songs you're right in a year, and then how many do people hear number one, which is like teeny. And then the one of those ones that people

hear, how many are successful, and how many will be remembered by. It's all a highlight reel. And people critique your best. Yeah. Then you come out with your best material and people are like, I don't like that song. I don't like that song. You send that to somebody

you're like, I think this song is great. This is the best I've written in a while. And they're like, yeah, and not my favorite. Not doing it for me. Back to the drawing board, please. Do you get affected by critiques? Do you read, read, like, critiques? I think the only time that critiques hurt

is when you know them to be true. That's where I'm at right now. Oh, wow. So I'm at a place where if I put out, usually I don't put out a song, luckily, now, that I don't think is awesome. So if you critique a song that I think is awesome, you probably are not going to point something out

that I haven't already, like, strained over and thought over if you think the drums aren't right if you think that the post is not up to quality like I don't care now because you know I write so much and by the time I put it out I'm getting to the place which is a really special place I don't know where you're at with this I'm interested to hear

where like this next album that I'm putting out I love it so much that I almost don't care if you like it which is really special believe me one of the offshoots of liking it so much is oh please I hope everybody gets to hear it and loves it and this is the first time I think really that that's happened but approaching a play it feels more artist than ever

where you're like oh I just love it I love it so much so if you tell me you don't like it I don't agree with you you know what I mean which is a special place to me now you can't just use that card all the time and like I think that when it comes like picking singles it's like listen to the world and which ones that people is going to resonate and stuff like that but it's a really interesting zone to start heading into

where it's like because I think I've also I've been someone who has cared a lot to some degree of like, oh, do you like this? Do you know? That's just like in my nature as an Andy. Like, do you like what's going on here? Can I help you? Do you need anything?

Is your seat comfortable? You know what I mean? But there's a place on this album where I'm starting to realize like, oh, no, no, I just love it. I mean, I think that's what makes it real art. And makes you a real artist. Yeah. When you can release something, you're like, this is something that I'm proud of. Yeah.

And it really doesn't matter whether somebody likes it. it or not. Yeah, and that's an easy thing to say and then to try and actually own it and live in that space when you if you do put something out, it doesn't work, is interesting. And I've always been... Have you released something that you were like, I'm really proud of this? And the response was like,

eh, where you were like, I'm so surprised that this was like, that this tanked. Yeah, I mean, I have a song called Back Home, which was the first single off my second record, which I thought was really good. I'm like, that's a good song. I know that's a good song.

and it just didn't do very well at radio. Now, it closed my shows. It does amazing in stadiums. But I remember sitting in it when it, like, didn't do that well at radio going, like, I'm bummed out, but I'm also like, that's great. I know that's great. And I think as an artist, you have to kind of make peace with yourself when you put out art that you think is good

to kind of let everything roll up and down around you. You know, one of the things that you, have to be okay with is that you are the same, especially if you're going to be in it, I've been writing songs now for a while, and I've kind of been putting them out for a while. People think you're hot, and then they think you're over, and then they think, oh, this one's great, you're the worst.

You're just like super trendy. No, you're not. And that comes at you over a long period of time. And the bottom line is, like, I'm the same the whole time. I'm the same guy the whole time. Even, like, radio stations you walk into, and now the programmer, you can, you can, feel the difference of like this time you're walking in and he's like oh you're hot the song's

hitting everything's going on we can't wait to see you we watch for the show and then the next time the song's not working and they're like uh you know just like a little bit distant and to keep a level head through it all which is like i literally am the same i'm the same it's just things go up and down and trying to try to stay uh level through it all is i think a real big skill for anybody that's an artist i mean it's i was going to say when you were talking about third street promenade too that you're the same guy as the guy who was out there yeah you know you don't really think of yourself as changing i mean the world changes around you you evolved but it gets that's the behind-the-scenes yeah and everybody anybody that's a true songwriter you write so many songs and then

you catch a unicorn once in a while and then everybody judges you on the unicorn but the majority of what you're doing is like writing these this like catalog of songs and so then everybody's like oh you're the man it's amazing you're so cool and then it's been a year or two since you've had one and everybody's like yeah he's done and you really do have to understand that all you're doing is like my job is not to be like a smash songwriter my job is to be like a writer like i'm an artist i show up i do my thing i love it it's one of my favorite things in the world to do is to get in a room either by myself with other people and try to take the essence of life and put it into like a catchy melody and then kind of be okay with whatever else happens

that's crazy that's like a mature me trying to tell you that's how I am I'm not always like that but that's like my what I aspire to be right yeah have you had the opposite happen where you're like you know and this sounds fine yeah let's just get it out the one rewrote which one dude fresh eyes I thought was good I knew it was like cool but it didn't have like a like it didn't have a hook that jumped out to me or anything like that but we got together we knocked it out. They're like pretty quickly, right? Yeah, that one was... And then the bridge we wrote, we came back and wrote.

But like, that one just felt... It felt good, but it didn't have this, like, magic dust around it. And then it, like, went nuts on Spotify. That's awesome. So that's the fun thing, too, is that you don't know. Why were you wrong? Why was I wrong? Yeah. I still don't really know.

I really like it. I love it. All I know is if it has the essence of a truth in it. So like I don't, I'm always happy, as long as there's truth in the song, whether it's like a gross truth or like an uplifting truth or like a sexy truth or whatever. As long as that's in there, then I'm like, I think it has a chance. So I wasn't like, oh, there's no way that's going to work. I just didn't know that it was going to go so well. And it's still like done really well over the world.

So that's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. We learned is that you need to trust me. I just need to trust loss. No, but to be honest, like I love that song. I think I was, I was really. also who wouldn't be pleasantly surprised by anything that's successful.

You know, it's like we've all released songs, even with like, on the writer's side, you've released songs with the biggest artists in the world that don't do well. Yeah. And you do songs with people who no one's ever heard of and like they get a big license. Yeah. You're like, wow, that's, I don't know how that stuff happens. You know, you just don't know. You don't know that like, you know, I can name a number of artists I've worked with

where they were, no one knew who they were and then they had a big hit and then all of a sudden it looks like I know what I'm doing because I had songs on the album. Totally. You know, but that's really you can't plan any of this. It's such a funny dance, right? Because you also have to keep your ear to the ground.

Like you want to know what's happening. Yeah. You can't plan it. It's like a weird middle ground of like you also, I also am not pretending to be the guy that's like the super indie guy that goes into the woods and does like whatever he does. Like I care. Like I want,

I want to be a part. I have severe fomo in all forms of culture. What's the sound like? What drums are hitting right now? I love all that. But you're catching me at a time when we're doing this right now where I'm approaching being like, is it okay to just like just love it and put it out? That's like where I'm sitting right now on this next album, which is really exciting. Let's go to the beginning of your story a little bit. Yeah. your dad's a Grammy winning musician nominated Grammy nominated right big difference we lost to Mr. Rogers

pretty fucked up for real? Yeah it was the year that Mr. Rogers had passed away and my dad was nominated against his compilation album which is a tough thing to go up against Best Children's album so yeah I grew up around

my father and my mother also she's a great writer as well which would be really sweet my wife writes song she's incredible too and the dynamic that they had me and my wife have which is just like always chopping up whatever song you're listening to or she'll show me a song or I'll show her

a song and having that connection is like just what family means to me so that's really sweet that I get to have that yeah so I grew up around that and then my dad he has a bunch of albums they're all really great it's like quality kids music yeah

when did you start writing I started writing, I think around 16 or whatever, ninth grade around then, I got a guitar and very quickly realized that I care much more about the song than about like shredding on the guitar. So I picked up the guitar and just like wrote a song just using the e-string, just like strumming the e-string.

What was it called? I have no idea. And then you start like slowly writing songs for girls and realizing how well that works, even if the songs are super crappy. And then just slowly loving this idea of writing songs. It's great. Were you in bands? Or were you always in grammar?

Yeah, I was called. I tried, I think, no, I kind of always knew that I wanted, I wasn't really, that the songwriting wasn't really up for debate. Like I'm pretty easy to be, I like to think that I'm like easy. but I didn't want to have somebody in my band say, no, that's not what we're doing. What I try to do is very specific and very, I don't know, like personal.

So like I write mostly from personal experience, and I wasn't willing to have any sort of compromise to that. It's interesting considering how much you collaborate. Totally. But like what I think I bring to the room, whenever I collaborate with somebody else. And in the beginning, I hated collaborating. I thought that it was going to work.

water down this what like what I'm talking about but it all changed and eventually I got to put this song out I haven't put it out but I wrote a song with Kara Diaguardi me her and jason reeves got together and i feel like i talk about my mom so much but it's like part of my story I lost my mom when I was 25 and I had we wrote a song called rookie which is about like being a rookie at losing your losing someone you love and I came into the room with Kara and I was like still like not totally sold on co-writing and I go to her and the first time I met her and I go like I'm gonna cry through this

I'm just gonna ball through this but I feel like this is my idea for the day you know sometimes like you get to a writing room and you're like these are the idea this is the one I want to write today and she's like I'm in this is dope so cool and we I cried and she you know I lost someone in her life before

she didn't cry the other two didn't cry but it was just me and every line that we came up with I was like, oh, like the guy thing. And we left the room and it was this awesome song that no one could sing except for me. And I was like, dope. Collaborating is so fresh. What do you mean no one could sing it?

Because it's 100% my story. 100% my point of view. 100% what I would want to say. And I had other people there to help me tell my story. So that to me is, that's when co-writing starts to get amazing. And I think of it almost like an architect. Like you want to, I want to build a Japanese style thing. So I go get someone who has experience in that, but it's what I want to do.

And it's my, you know, for me, I always kind of knew that what my special sauce was was my point of view. Like early on, I think what's really great in the long run is what you don't have when you get started. So I knew, like once I got a guitar in my hand, like, okay, I don't shred. my voice is okay what do I got here you know especially like when I went out to the street as a street performer and it's funny because now I have

actually a lot of confidence having done this for so long I feel like my voice has really grown I'm really like starting to be confident in my choice of melodies and stuff like that just being around it and learning and soaking it in but in the beginning it was like I don't have anything that's going to wow you so the song is going to really have to

like the song is going to have to carry a lot of the weight here. Yeah. I think a lot of people assume that their voice is what's going to define them, but it isn't. But imagine like... Yeah, like how stunting it would be if your voice was unreal.

That you could sing anything and anyone would be like, oh my God, how amazing. You can get away with so many shitty lyrics because your voice is so good. Yeah, but not really. You definitely can get away with more if your voice is unbelievable,

especially just in your inner circle when you're getting started. People will be like, whoa, you're unbelievable. And for me to start... They may ask you to sing. Yeah, yeah, totally. So they'll want to hear what you have to say, but you can easily argue...

I mean, the best singers that are out there right now, and I'm not going to, like, blow up their spot, but there are a bunch of them that have really bad songs. Totally. And you cannot get anywhere because their songs suck. But when you look at, like, the greatest artists, like, you can take, you know, some of the names out that Frank Sinatra's out,

Elvis, Whitney. you know take those out that's fine but like there's like the Kurt Cobain's and the Bob Dylan's and Bruce Springsteins and you know the Joni Mitchells and like Carol King these people are not great like quote singers

they're just such good writers that you're like but I would argue that one of the reasons that they're such great writers is because in their development phase they knew that they had that that had to carry the weight They knew that like I'm not going to blow someone away with the high note It's gonna have to be the turn of the phrase for me you know and again like I feel pretty confident I'm like really proud of how far my voice has come and like now I feel confident singing and stuff

But in the beginning especially you know my dad has this amazing tenor voice and I remember being young and writing songs going like I don't have that at this moment And like really being stressed that like I don't know if I can do this because I don't think my voice is gonna Is the thing you have a really big range so I've really again like I'm saying I'm saying I I feel like I've grown into it and it's one of my strengths now. But when I was starting, which is so crucial to everybody, is that development period is like I knew that it was going to have to be the words. Yeah. Which is now, like, are you a melody or words person?

Or music or words? Everybody falls into these categories, right? The thing is, I always thought I was a lyric person until I became the melody guy. Totally. And then now I'm like nervous that my lyrics don't hold up. I mean, I was literally... But I mean, like, when a piece of music hits you, what do you listen to her? Oh, it's weird. That's interesting.

I think I listen to the melody first because I think that's the easiest language to understand. It's the dialect that we all speak. Yeah. It's what, to me, I think that's, you know, that's as, if not more important. I think the lyric is what will make me fall in love with something and make me want to learn more about the artist.

it's what really drives my relationship with music. And as an artist who's playing shows. But the first thing I listen to is going to always be the melody. The melody. See, for me, it's 100% lyric. When I hear a song... How do you do that?

How are you that focus? I don't know. The only thing that I hear first is like, what are you talking about? What's your angle? What do you have to say about everything? What's your take on all this? Right. You know?

And when I'm uninspired by that, I'm now just like when I study, especially if this is the radio or like go through the top 50 on Spotify, once I get, if I know that there's nothing there that is really like amazing to me, then I'll still just like study what else is going on. But to me the lyrics, once that hits, then I'm really in. That's what I love. Is there the kind of place in art, like is there a time in 2018 that you can be an artist and not listen to the other music? that's out there and still be relevant.

Like how is it that, you know, like you're saying you're studying the music that's out there and as a writer I feel obligated to do that too. On the other hand, I feel like I'm not going to write Little Oosieverts next single. I'm not going to write, you know, Cardi B's next single. Sure.

I just don't, it's not how I write. Yeah. And it's like, how do you stay relevant if you don't study? You know, and if you do study. like how do you Andy Grammer is not putting Lil Uzivert

like melodies in yeah I don't think you ever want to be so you never want to be me too right that's what me and my manager Ben always that's a big phrase for us which is like

taking a sound that's hitting and being like oh and me as well and also me yeah right but I also don't want to be afraid of being inspired. So if I'm inspired, then I think that can

by whatever's going on, then that's different because then it's like, no, this is like, I'm in. There's a very different thing. You know as a writer, there's a different thing between like, this is so fresh. This is like, you know,

on that song, Good to Be Alive. That was like kind of, the way that I was feeling it was like gospel kind of like stomp clap thing, but then throwing the trap drum at the end of it was like, oh, that's, so cool and trap drums were happening

but I wasn't trying to do me too it was just like that's what's happening right now this is so this is so cool so I think it's all the intention there's definitely an intention sometimes to mess with what's occurring in the moment and then there's also sometimes where you're desperately trying to

be relevant and those two things are razor thin you have to be like really careful to not fall in the other way one of my favorite stories when you were saying that you were on 3rd Street and you were wondering about how hit songs were written

so you got a book? Yeah, something like that. Totally. And then walk me through that a little bit. So I'm just always open. Well, how did you get to Third Street? We went from like, you're in New York and then all of a sudden you're on Third Street Promenade,

which for those who aren't in L.A., that's like, you know, one of our major streets in L.A. where you have street performers, you have all the big famous stores and you have, you know, fountains that look pretty in lighting and music. It's really all about I think when you're doing art

like are you doing or are you not doing you know like people come up to me and ask me writers or new artists and go like how do I get like a man I really want to do it I'm just like are you doing it like every day like all day long? I'm not like I don't want to be a numbers guy but I don't think I've ever written an album without writing 100 songs and you don't have to tell like

again it's not that that many songs is going to get you a hit it's just that the type of person that will write that many songs it's probably eventually going to have a song that's going to do really well. And so the promenade to me was just time. It was like, that's development. That was my grad school. That was my, what do you call it, when doctors go residency. Did you have a day job?

No. I made all my money out there. I paid my rent from being a street performer. Wow. How much were you making? So in the beginning, no, it's fine. In the beginning, it was just me and my roommate and we sang Harmony. His name is Devin.

and we would sing harmony and he was really good at following me he taught me how to sing harmony and we'd go out there and that was like our schick so we were good enough at singing a Jimmy World Song You were just roommates and you were like we should go out of the rest? Yeah yeah

we should just do it and so we went out and we found that like if we sang a bunch of songs and then closed with this Jimmy Eat World song I don't even remember the name of it right now but the harmony was tight enough that people would throw a couple bucks in and so usually after like a six hour

stint of singing, there'd be $300 in the case, and we'd each get $150 bucks. And that was like as good as doing some crappy waiting job. But we were singing and we were like connecting and we're seeing like, my voice sounds good here. How does your voice hold up? I know that's like a stupid question, but like how do you sing

for six hours a day and not just like if I same for six hours a day? I would be... I learned how to sing from just nonstop singing outdoors. Yeah. And then what happened was he moved because he wanted to go start an internet company, which is crushing. now and I stayed

and that next year, because I was out there for about four years, so the first year was just with him. Second year was me alone without harmony, which was very brutal. Because I realized I lost this sticky thing and nobody cared. So like long days of playing

going like, okay, that's not working. And what were you making in there? Like 50 bucks a day? Sad amounts. Yeah, petty, like pity dollars would get thrown in as people walk by. And then I started it's like slowly developing. I remember trying different covers

and tried a Michael Jackson cover and someone actually came out to me and was like, he seemed like a nice guy. Like don't, that's not a good one for you. No way. Like the offhand comments when you're out street performing of people trying to be nice to you

like to really tell you how it is gets you very, that was another part of the grad school was just learning how to just take shit from people, you know? Like you're just taking shit. Wow. As you're learning how to get your voice good.

It's the best school, I would say, for a songwriter or for an artist, is to just be out on the street. You're literally doing it all day long. You're watching people walk by and how they are viscerally reacting to what you're doing. So someone would walk by and I'm playing like, Hey there, Delilah was big at that time. And they're like, eh, that's okay. But you start to read off them that like,

that's a song that's a hit right now, but that's not your lane. And then I remember singing Sunday morning by Maroon 5 and everybody stopped. and I'm like, okay, I got one thing that's not my song that is actually doing something and then slowly you piece together these things and my first album is basically me trying to write Sunday morning 12 times and you just, you find your, I kind of found my voice and what was working through all this market research

of people walking by, it was pretty cool. The first hit is, you know, it's got to keep your head up, right? Oh yeah, you were asking about the book Well, because I think this is important. I think when you hear that song, you can envision walking by the guy on the street singing that song. Totally. So that's a mixture of...

Around that time, I'd also just been studying and gobbling up as much information about songwriting as I possibly could. Because there is this weird thing about songwriting. It's very much just inspiration. But then I'm like, especially writing with someone like you, there's a lot of like math and structure and rules that you either decide your knowledge. gonna break in this moment or you're gonna use the rules to try and help you write a better song.

And I remember going by a bookstore and just like, it was, I was obsessed. It's like, how do you write the best song? And I bought a book on songwriting. And it was like, people love opposites because they already know what's coming. So you got to keep your head up. You know what's coming. And if you can make it interesting, right? You got to keep your head up, but you can let your hair down. That's like the dumbest, simplest, simplest line, but also there's a lot going on in there. Yeah, sure. Right? It's like kind of smart.

And then I also think that you add an uplifting song. The most important thing of any song is uplifting is that there's pain in it. Because nobody just wants to be uplifted. They want to feel that you care. And so that was like a perfect, I don't know, convergence of a bunch of different things. And people still come up to me to this day and tell me what that song like, I don't know, lightens their load a little bit. And it makes me so happy.

That's like a magic trick that you're able to create a sound. that goes into somebody and makes him feel a certain way. I mean, that's math too. Math, yeah. You know, as much as poetry is math, the ambic pentameter, which is, you know, or using any sort of Shakespearean poetry, that's all math. Yeah.

You know, how many syllables do you use in this line? How many syllables do you use in that line? And how does that structure work? And how do you keep someone, you know, like someone, I'm sure will tweet this at us, but there's like a, in, womanizer for Britney Spears, it's like a super

unique use of that kind of number and there's an actual name for that kind of like 11 over 4 kind of measures and like I don't know whoever wrote it thought of that or studied it in school or whatever it was or it's just a coincidence

probably just a coincidence but all of its numbers yeah and I think that that even if it's an emotional thing I think I write from a genuinely emotional place. I really think I'm an emotional writer. Sure. I think that I know certain things that will help that emotion shine better

by playing with your instincts. And like you said, the human instinct, when you say you got to keep your head up, you know what the next line is about to be give or take. Totally. And so there's the same sort of thing of like using dissonance and resolving it on the next line or resolving something and moving to dissonance,

that stuff is the same math. It's just through audio. And going back to this idea of like, you know, being afraid to co-write or, you know, should I do it by myself? One of the things that's been so cool about learning how to still hold on to my point of view while co-writing

is learning all of these, like, tricks. Is there any book you would recommend that has the most together? I have no idea. Right? I mean, I know that there's like, some stuff that even I read. And I remember there's, you know, there's like,

I read some guy's book who maybe had a song that went top 40 at some point. And it was like a thing where he was talking about making sure your lyrics aren't too smart. And I'm like, man, that sucks. It's just so uninspiring. And I think, you know, what you get with the Alanis's or what Julia Michaels is doing is like, you can use multisalabic words. Totally. And it's totally okay.

And what you get from Katie Perry's, your lines don't have to rhyme. So any book that I've ever read about songwriting, I've had to sift through so much bullshit to get a couple little nuggets of like, oh, you know what? That's actually useful and that's cool. But a lot of times it's just like I don't agree. Yeah. But I'm so glad that I still do it and research it because then you get these little things.

You're like, okay, for my book that I'll eventually one day write, like that's useful or I'll keep that. And I've learned a lot from you to just be honest. a lot of melodic tendencies that I really appreciate have come from being in a room with you going like oh yeah I would have it's this balance right like hopefully as a successful at least pop writer

you have to continually going back and forth like now it just feels awesome it just feels great but if you just go with just feels great I think you are cutting yourself short for how special something can be if you go by it just feels great my fear is that it won't stand

long enough. It'll be more like that, that being tipsy kind of thing where it's like it's there and it's fun right now but in the long run you'll figure it out that it wasn't it doesn't... And sometimes it's a hard and fast rule, sometimes it will.

Sometimes that just does work but I think... When is it when has it happened that there was... And I'm, I mean, I know that there are eras that are different but right now, like what's a song right now that sounds like it just feels like something just happen.

Like, if you listen to that Bruno Mars album, there's not a note or a word that is by accident. It's all very specific, yeah. Yeah. You know, I mean, like, even the Jay-Z album, like, this last one, whatever. Like, there's nothing by accident. Totally.

Even something that's freestyling, like, you know. I mean, when you're choosing, when you're choosing, because as a songwriter, like, you're just consistently coming up, like, at another fork in the road. to me that's what songwriting is. You're like, where are we going to go here? And I think that you need as many tools in your belt

to be like, well, what feels like I'm supposed to go, like my tendency would be to go this direction and then getting better at understanding why you're going that direction, I think leads to overall better songs. Sure. Right. And you're someone who will consistently stop

the flow of a session and be like, hold on. And you'll like stroke your beard. You'll be like, is this where we want to go? Or are we just, like, why are we going down this road? Right. And I think that the more that you're capable of doing that when it's necessary as a writer is such a valuable tool. It's okay.

And it's like, it's okay to justify the road you're going down. Yeah, just tell me why. Just like, let's make sure that we exhaust other options to see that this is the best. I think a 22-year-old Andy would be like, dude, why are you stopping the flow? Yeah. You're annoying. I don't like writing with you. I hated me.

I hated me. For so long I'd be in sessions with the... I'd be like, I just want to finish the song. Let's just write the song. Maybe it's great. Who knows? And I will say some things, because some things need to... Like, here's something that when you say like the song about the rookie song.

And you're like, well, you still haven't released it, you know? By letting a song, by having a song that can last 10 years before release... releasing it, you now can revisit it and decide whether or not those were mistakes. Sure. And when you're on the promenade performing every day, you can actually test, oh yeah, you know, this section isn't great. Sure. I could beat this section.

And when you're in a session where you're supposed to finish a song in 24 hours or 48 hours, if you are not surrounded by people who are going to quickly go through what you would learn after playing 50 times, you're in the wrong rooms. Totally. Like you want to be surrounded by people who are like, nah, you could beat that. You want the guy who's like, you know what? That cover, not good. Okay, so defining moment as a writer for me, I'm on the promenade, and there's this guy who,

I'm going to guess, is homeless, he's pretty drunk. He's walking past me. I'm playing to, you know, three people. And I'm singing, and I've been out there for four years. So this guy, you know, I have connections now with the. people that live on the street. And they know who I am and they've heard me and they've seen me, which is a sweet thing for the rest of my life just as far as homelessness goes.

Because I see someone and I'm like, I've built connections with these people. You're not just like some homeless person. You're Dave and we've had conversations. And I'm like waiting for a two o'clock spot and you're here. So like, what's up? Where are you from? What's your life like? And this guy's walking past me and he goes, he's drunk.

And he goes like, yeah, you are right. You need hooks though. you ain't got no hooks and again going back to what I said like the only time that criticism hurts is when you know it's true and at that point in in my history like I didn't have hooks

and I'd be like shit you know what my man like you're correct I don't have hooks and I need to freaking pick this out I need to really like study hooks and get into like why what what makes a hook

and get into some of this you know I mean and some of that also shows that the people who are walking on promenade and anybody who's on the street like any, and not homeless on the street, but like anybody who's out in the, let's say the muggles

like the non-music industry writers, they are experts in listening to music. Totally. The only things that they've done their whole life is eat food and so they're probably experts in the quality of food or at least understand like, oh, this tastes

good, this burger's well done, this burger's oversalted, this they've had enough food in their life that they can be experts in that they can do that about pretty much that and they can do that with music you know there's nothing else

that if you need 10,000 hours of something to be an expert every human we know has probably listened to 10,000 hours of music whether they meant to or not so like when people look down on popular music in any way

what they're missing is that No, those people who are listening, they don't, there are other people, there are other singles that major labels have pushed that did not work because the populace didn't like it. Yeah. And because the populace is smart. Yeah. They're much smarter than we give them credit for. And I hate when people think to dumb stuff down because you're like, no, no, no, you don't understand. The populace is really pretty wise.

They listen to more music than you give them credit for. and they're the guy who's on the street he's like, no, you should do more hook like you need more hooks. Need hooks, bro. How did he say it? Oh, he stumbled around and it got in. That shit got in.

I still remember that. It like, hit me at my core. And I was like, you're right. Because I was doing more of like what, again, I don't want to sound like too academic, but I was just writing from a place of like, let me just see what comes out. And I think that it doesn't have to be

like uninspired if what you're doing is is also being smart about your craft and learning and studying and you know so a lot of times I'll just listen to the radio and it's not I'm not just like jumping it or the Spotify playlist I'm listening to be like okay so what is working why is this one of my favorite things to do especially with my wife we'll sit both his writers and be like why is this working what the hell's going on that's awesome or that pre was crazy did you see how that pre set up what was going to come

You know, and then like, oh, the post came out of, you know, like, that is one of my favorite pastimes. Do you think that being married to somebody who understands song composition has made you a better writer? Is it made you a wary writer? Does she have, like, say in whether songs are singles or not? I care what she thinks, for sure. Like, I like it when she likes it. But sometimes we have, like, different opinions on what we both like. So, and I do think it's...

She's got to hear it when she comes to your shows. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I really respect her opinion. Yeah. It's important. Well, you know, one of the things about being inspired for you that's interesting is, like, you manage to use concepts that are universal but aren't what, I don't know, like they're so positive.

Like, it's so important for you to have positivity, positivity in your lyrics and in your songs. and there's nobody else who does that so consistently. Like, were you always conscious about not having an antagonist in your songs? Like, how did you get to being like, you know what, I'm going to write songs? My angle is going to be, I'm going to write positive songs. So, like, they asked, I remember listening to the live Jerry Seinfeld album when I was growing up. they ask him like why don't you ever curse and he's like it doesn't work for me

he's like I'm a slave to what works and it doesn't work for me to say fuck in this joke like it's not it doesn't look good on me it doesn't work on me my opinion of how of like the reason that we're here in life is just not like you're probably not going to hear me sing a song that's like you're the worst you fucked me

I just don't operate really in that zone. So when I try to write personal stuff it usually comes out this way. Well, and it doesn't mean that it's like, you know, something like, Honey, I'm Good doesn't say like, I'm a saint.

No. You know, like it doesn't, you know, what I like about it is that you found a way to have edge in the songs that have been most successful. It's almost like the other edge. It's like, like you have,

if you have this spectrum of colors, right, and say that like yellow, bright yellows here and dark black is all the way on the other side. Everyone has all those feelings. For some reason, what's very interesting to me is like how do you write yellow

in a way that's cool? That's really hard to do. When people do it, we all as a culture freak out and love it. Right? You have a song like happy. When that comes on, who doesn't want that? That's the best, right? But it's really, really hard to do to do it in a way that doesn't feel insincere.

But I know that we all are happy at times. That's a true emotion that we have. But I think maybe it's in like we're living through like pretty severely cynical times and to actually get one through that feels like honest and sincere

and doesn't throw up a red flag that like this guy's a joke. What is this? I can't. This is like cheesy, not real stuff. I mean good to be alive is I know. Like to actually So hard to do that again. So hard to get it through. Someone was joking with me that like when you

when you get to like the border and they like they check like if you have any contraband. Like that's like trying to get a positive song across. It's like is there is some bullshit you're trying to like are you trying to make me inspired? Is there like is there some like godly stuff? What are you doing? What's happening in here?

And you still have to like slip it through. But the truth is that everybody does need those things, right? We all experience those. It's just another emotion. And I also do genuinely believe that, like, we are tested to grow. So even when you have a song about struggle or strife or things that are going really shitty in your life, my genuine opinion on that is that you will grow from that. So that's kind of like a through line through a lot of my stuff. Where do you get that philosophy? I was raised to Baha'i, which is probably, you know, there's like a lot of writings about that in the Baha'i faith, which is just like a world religion based on the idea of

all the unity of the religions. So maybe having that, my family, I don't know, you know, I just kind of grew up. I'm also just a fairly positive dude. Like, you know, I just did this 23 and me thing. You ever done that? No. What's that? Or the genetic test? Oh, I haven't done that. Yeah. And then we took it to someone who like analyzed it and they're like, oh yeah, someone like you with the genes you have are usually like pretty positive and not going. I'm like, whoa, wait, what? I've been taking credit for this. So I think there is something about like, it's just a little bit of who, like my purpose and who I am.

You've gone through some issues, you know, like with things in your life, you've lost your mom. Do you feel like it was, do you feel like she listens to your music now? Do you sing songs to her? First of all, it was the most important event in my career to have my mom pass away, which is such a weird mind fuck to even say.

But I'm a totally different guy artist if that doesn't happen. I think that, like, as a guy that's out there singing positive songs, if you don't have true struggle, truly something that takes you your knees, nobody wants to hear, keep your head up from just a guy. And I was also, like I said, like I think I just had a fairly easy upbringing and things came fairly easy to me. And I've always kind of been the dude that's like, happy and I remember

seeing people that were sad and not truly being able to relate. I was the guy that would come up to you in high school, be like, come on, what's the deal? What are you sad about? Like, let me cheer you up. With no real true compassion. So to get kicked in the balls, like, fully all the way down to like, I get it. Now I understand, like, just walking around Los Angeles,

totally messed up, tears in my eyes on a daily basis was like the most important thing as someone that's going to co-end try and be uplifting. Because you lose some of the shine there that is very necessary to try and sing some of these songs. It definitely gives you empathy. I mean, but for everybody, because you

just see everybody's like... You can see. You can see when someone's really messed up, you go like, I get it. Which is really important. Do you ever feel like the victim like in any of it? Like I could also see that the other... You know, as much as there's the...

If you go from being the guy who's like, man, how... is it how are you upset with life? I was literally that guy. How annoying is that guy? Yeah. The guy's the worst. Yeah. But because like why would you, you know, if you haven't thought or something?

I hadn't had things. So like when my mom passed away, I was literally the quiet guy at the table. How did you not go with like the dinner table? I'd be like just quiet. Didn't you get into like a why me? Doesn't, don't you then end up, don't you swing the exact opposite side of the pendulum? You could, but again, having me raised that I was raised and just I knew kind of inherently that it was, you grow from things.

like this. I've always like an analogy of like you know the best catch you can make in baseball is the one that like rob somebody of a home run

but what that looks like right before the catch is like oh it's not gonna like you have to run so far and you have to jump and climb up the wall and it's like the craziest thing

and then you make the catch and eventually if you were asked like yeah that's what makes the dope catch is like you have to have a ball that's hit so far right so I

I've kind of of, I don't know. And the flip side is like, when you showed the face of the guy who almost hit the home run, it's like, it's a really sad play for that guy. It's like it's hard to hit a home run. Yeah. So it's like, when you get robbed of it, it's robbed. And you're like, fuck, man.

Totally. So I think you're just always, I've been blessed to hopefully see life through the eyes of tests make you stronger. And I don't know if that's like a spiritual idea or just kind of something that came inherently. but yeah. How much you use spirituality in your songwriting? I really think that there are laws to the universe. And I think that any time that you touch on one of those laws,

that's what makes everybody go like, oh, totally, me as well. Like when you're driving the car and you hear something on the radio, to explain it, I've used it so many times, but the idea of like Newton rode out what gravity was. It's a law. He wrote out, he explained gravity. it. He wrote it down. He was the first one to write it down. And then everybody reads it and they all go like, shit, dude, this is happening to me. Literally, all day long, every day. You super nailed it. And I think any great pop song has that in it. Someone writes it down in a way, something that we're all going through, everybody's experiencing, and then the songwriter writes it out and sings it to you. And then there's this huge overwhelming feeling of we're all in this together. Somebody understands me. Unity. All this speed, like, it floods over you when. when someone through the radio or through Spotify sings your experience

sings one of the laws that we're all going through it feels euphoric, you love it, you can't get enough of it. There's like half that and then there's half like the envy attached to like, damn, I wish I wrote that. No, but most of the people that are hearing it don't feel that. As a writer, anytime you hear someone who's caught it, you're like, it was right there. We're all dealing with it all the time and you said it

in the way that I should have said it. You know? That to me is the most fun part of songwriting is when I get one of those. Or when I even think that I'm approaching one of those in the room, I'm like, oh, I can feel like if I could just say this correctly, I'm going to get this law. Right. Do you read philosophy in order to get, like, where do you get the ideas from? Do they just pop in your head? I mean, I think you're always writing down little things that pop in your head, like notes-wise.

A lot comes from my life, mostly. Do you get, in a family of writers and Grammy nominated writers, even, do you guys get envious of each other ever? That's a weird question? Well, me and my dad are very... They're like an offensive question. No, it's a great question. It's real. Yeah, totally. I think you just have to be very specific when you're talking to each other

about like what you want when you want critiquing or any conversation has to do with songwriting is very specific that's all it is so me and my wife she'll show me a song

and she'll be like what do you think of this I only want to know about the baseline I don't want to hear what you have to say about anything else or else we're going to fight I'm like totally

so she plays for me I'm like I don't like that baseline or I love that baseline that's great and then I leave it at that which is a bold move dude I know

it's crazy because I'd be like I'd be like, okay, yeah, I don't know if I like the baseline. Or I'll ask her, like, you know, I'll ask her and I'll be like, you know, just the bridge, everything else is done. We all agree that we love the song, Just the Bridge. And then you can see it like pain on her face, but she just tells me just what she thinks of the bridge. Same thing.

And then you need people in your life that are just no holds bar. You know, me and my manager, Ben, we go at it. We, like, don't mince words. It's just, like, exactly what you think when you hear a song. And don't worry, we don't have time to waste. When you're writing as many songs as we write, there's no time to be like, I feel like the, you know, the beat here is pretty cool. Like, we don't do that.

He just goes like, I don't like this. I hate this. I mean, he's an interesting guy. Which I really appreciate. And I work really well with. He's your real, in a way, he's the third co-writer in the room. Always. The second co-writer, however many people, there's always your manager.

You know, you guys have gone through this. stuff together. I don't know if I know of another artist who has that relationship. Who has that relationship? Or where even the co-writers understand that relationship. Yeah. You know, where it's like whatever happens here. Yeah, it's kind of a cool thing to have this like, especially as a guy, I'm starting to get better at it, but as a guy who's like happy and fairly people-pleasy to have a manager that is the, that is not necessarily like that has been really, really helpful and useful. And I think that I've,

we both have probably come more towards the middle of what the other person is as we've grown together. We've been together for like eight years now. So now I don't think his job has to be as much just like harsh. This is terrible as it used to be because I'll kind of do it when it needs to be that way anyway. But it's good. You need to have people that really, really, really keep you honest. Did you ever want to write with other people or other art, sorry, for other artists, like with other artists? Because like when you have, for you, so much of it is about a lyric being positive.

Yeah. And about, you know, what's going on with your life. But I think the more specific you get, it always means for everybody else to. No, that's for sure. But more reason why, you know, one of the cool parts of not being an artist is that you can just jump in a room and be like, today my job is to help, you know, you tell your story. Totally. And you can go into a whole world that isn't. yours. I definitely see myself doing a lot of that eventually. Right now, I'm still just like,

there's so many aspects of being. Like, I don't know how you do it. You do, you have a bunch of different aspects as well. But the idea of just being a writer to me is a little bit claustrophobic. Like, I love, I think it's almost like a kitchen or something, like a restaurant. Like, I love the time it takes in the back coming up with like what the new thing is that I'm going to serve everybody. But then I equally love sending it out and serving it to everybody and seeing how they react and all this different stuff. And being the guy that goes on the road and has been to Boston 27 times.

And I love that piece. Is that how many times you've been to Boston? At least, probably more. Yeah. You know, each city that you go to make these relationships and you have fan bases and different, I mean, we just got back from Australia

and everybody was, it was awesome. Do you like touring? I love it. I think that there's a fallacy around touring and family that if you just stayed home, everything would be fine. Like, I need it.

I work correctly. Like, the way that I made, needs to like randomly have coffee in the morning in Oregon. Like that, I need that much stimulation. I love it. It keeps me going. And like right now, kind of doing like almost like firefighter hours where like I'll go away and do a couple shows. And then I'll come back and hang with my daughter and my wife like exclusively for like

three or four days. And then I'll run out and do something else. And like that's kind of the way that I work the best. What's the dream scenario? Like where can your career go now now? Like where do you want it to go? What's like, do you sit here and think, like, are you so much, whatever's happening right now is what's happening right now? Or do you think, like, my goal is to go and...

I think you just, like, you're only happy when you're growing. So wherever that is, does that mean... Like, I just went and saw Coldplay. Have you seen Coldplay? I mean, I've seen them at, like, I heart... I just wanted to saw Coldplay at the Rose Bowl. 60,000 people. There's plenty of room for growth.

Like, in all areas, there's rooms to keep growing and getting the show more incredible, getting more of these laws that hopefully everybody, that are pop songs. I still feel like super passionate that there's like plenty of ways to grow that I love. Yeah, I mean, you know, the new album, the good parts, I think what's so exciting about that song in particular.

Yeah. And the idea of it being that, you know, this is how you are in real life. It's like you don't like having surface conversations. You're not good at that. Like the minute that you're in the room, you will go straight towards like, let me go and see if I can get to the jugular. Like right away, you're like, I want to have the real conversation. And you're like, I want to, like, let's order the cake pops first. Let's order the cake pops first.

But I think even in our friendship, I've pushed you pretty far. Yeah, sure. I think I've pushed you pretty far too. Dude, totally. You love it. It's my favorite. Does it scare you?

You always talk about going to the fence. You're like, or like go past it or whatever. And you're like, you want to have no walls. You want to have, like, your best case scenario is everybody just like is just like crying, laughing and crying all the time. I genuinely think that, um, that it's a pretty crazy thing just to be alive and that we are all a little bit too used to how things are

and that the more that you think about like just being alive is awesome and insane and we all like settle into our normal days and our work days but like it's nuts man it's an unbelievable place to be and there's like so many rich ways rich conversations to be had that for some reason there's barriers to get to them and I don't exactly know why

and so I like to try and push those. But why do you think there are barriers? I think it's just the more vulnerable you get, it's like a little uncomfortable. Like I invited you to my birthday party, where we just told stories about my mom passing away with 60 close friends, and I cried miserably in front of all of you

as I told the story of my mother. And I like pushing each relationship to the furthest part. So some of those people were just writers that I had just had a good experience with in a room, and I'm like, you know what? I'd love to push our relationship to like a little bit further

and so I invited you, invited a bunch of people we came and I'm like, let me tell you the deepest crazy shit about my life. And then then the interactions that come from that just happen to be much deeper than like you open up to me about stuff and we like... Are there things that you

that you haven't gotten to? I'm sure. I'm sure there are. You know like the... I think that on this album I've gone deeper than I've ever gone and try and the deeper you go and and still somehow be able to find what is unified that everybody like everybody has in their experience that's like where I'm passionate about trying to get to right now what did you write that you kind of feel like where when you wrote

you were like I don't know if I want this out there uh there's a song called Civil War that I wrote um which is kind of a a little bit of an angry song at God which is like, if you created me, why would you make me a civil war? And insert anybody's vice that they have. Like, you knew that I was going to struggle through all this. So, like, if you were the one that was making it, you're making me, why?

What's the freaking point, you know? What's your vice? Plenty of vices, man. Just like, you know, sincerely, I think that I wish I prayed more. like everybody else, eat too much sugar. What does that mean? Do you wish you prayed more? Yeah.

Do you have any desire to be more morally, better, spiritual, any of this stuff? Me personally? Yeah. Yeah, but I don't think praying has anything to do with it. Sure. I don't know how to pray. You ever tried? Yeah, I mean, like, I grew up being Jewish.

So, like, I mean, I've been to places where they're like, hey, now's when you pray and you say some shit to this thing. And you go and you say things. And I don't feel more fulfilled with that. I feel more fulfilled having this conversation and talking about life. Sure. Then I do from sitting there being like, I still think this is not. You know, it's like I'm just getting into the idea of meditating.

Yeah. And in a sense, meditating the idea of like, just breathe and be present. Yes. But the being present is almost the exact opposite of what I think. praying is. Interesting. Like I think praying is like is a little bit of like what it takes to write a song as far as like

you go somewhere that you're not really at all the time. Like it's like almost like manufacturing a dream. I wish this was the case. Please do this because this would be wonderful if this were this fictitious world is where we were. But in reality I don't think it pushes myself in that direction versus like if I'm right here right now, then I can help fulfill

getting Andy as cake pop. I know that sounds stupid, but rather than you wishing for it, I can be like, you know what, let's figure out how to do this. Yeah. Like, I like touching it.

Totally. I don't like the idea of time. But I think a lot of times the words have different meaning for everybody else. I think that praying is like whatever you decide. I think that like sitting in a room alone with your hands crossed,

that could be praying or it could be like reading a spiritual text. that you think is awesome that connects you to something or even just sitting there quietly like you're saying, like meditating. To me it's like are you consistently trying to get back?

I think that in my life I've had I've been in periods where I'm like in really good spiritual shape and then other periods where I'm not. Right. And I think we can all feel that through like if you just use the physical. Like I've had periods of my life where like I was crushing the gym and other periods where I wasn't. And I think that there's like that I deal with that in my life.

Are you in a good spiritual place or anything? now? Yeah, I think I'm pretty good right now. I'd say out of ten, I'd give myself like a seven. That's interesting. Where are the last three? I don't know. I think just consistency, like trying to consistently be connected, kind of like, you know what you're saying in different ways. I think that we as a society are pretty anti, like, I don't know, we're a little anti-religion, anti-spirituality. Like, I'll just do my own thing. but then we also just need to figure out like okay so how are we going to be where are we learning these techniques on how to be better people that's what i care the most about is like how are you spend how do you spend time to like learn that you know where where do you spend time that's it's up for debate right but for me that that's when it comes down to like just being cognizant of it and trying trying every day is being a new father yeah totally

because you know that this little girl is going to do things based on how I am. So I think maybe you're catching me at a time where I'm like a little bit more aware of it. Because I know my dad or my parents, I'd look to them and go like, okay, cool, you told me something, but I'm just watching how you're doing it.

So I'm a little bit, that's like, and I wrote a song, wrote some songs about her on the next record. Yeah, I'm very like... When did you realize that your parents weren't all-knowing? It's a weird thing. like when you start to figure out that, oh shit. Yeah, they don't know everything.

Yeah. And like, you know, my parents were younger than I am now and they had me and I remember them my age. Yeah. You know, I don't have any kids, but I remember my parents being my age. I was old enough at that point. Yeah. You know, and it's like, wow, humans are so, and my parents have been very good parents,

but there's no doubt that like humans are totally unqualified to have other humans. You know? Totally. And like, as you get older, you're like, oh, my God. Why did my parents do this? They are nuts. It's very scary when you realize that your parents are really just normal humans. And the second that you have a kid, you really realize that you're like, oh my God.

Yeah. We can lighten it up a little bit and go to, I'm going to list five people. Okay. You're just going to tell me the first thing that comes off the top of your head. Okay. Rachel Platten. My artist's sister. She's like my sister in the music.

business and I love her deeply. John Mayer. Took me from jock to musician, which was a strong thing to do because I was a very jock guy. Letter jacket, the whole thing, the only thing that mattered in my life was basketball. And then room for squares

rocked me hard. And I was like, maybe not. He loosened the grip on jock for me. I thought I wanted to go to college play basketball. Not that I was good enough to do that, but that was like my mindset, and he shifted it. Did you go to college? Yeah. Where'd you go? Went to Binghamton for two years for acting.

What? Was okay at it. I got the lead in a couple shows, but would always be writing songs like outside of the rehearsal. And then I moved to L.A. and did music industry at Northridge. Okay. And that's where you met Asia then. That's where I met Asia, yeah.

Oh, how about that? Pretty cool. That's all makes sense. And then you're like, I'm in Northridge. I might as well drive down to San Monica. Yeah, yeah. So I was like, while I was going to school, I did some of the street performing as well.

the day I got my degree I walked across the stage and then like went straight to the street you still want to act I mean musicians have a history of I'm down it's just like there's only so much time right now so my main passion is still just like writing the best song ever I mean you've seen like the rock the rock does like 50 things I don't know how he does it

it's got to be a way to get any grammar on that I know I mean when you do the today show yeah that's kind of silly and fun to do to just kind of how did you become the guy who does the today show they asked me to do it and I was like all right right sure and then they just loved you and then it was like now i've done it a couple times it's kind of fun ben singer my partner in all of it yeah um do you question him yeah what's great about someone like ben is he just brings the intensity up so like anytime you make a piece of already you write a song

you wrote it you think it's good and you have a a feeling about it that like this is my thing you know There's a reverence around it that you made it. If someone goes like, do you want to go to battle? Do you want to fight for that? That's a different thing. Do I want to stake my reputation on this thing? I don't know about that. Right.

But then there are times where I'm like, yeah, I do. I know this. And just like that level of intensity really helps bring out the best in people. And so I wish a Ben Singer on everybody. I love Ben. I think he's a great manager for you. And I think he's a great manager, period. and think he's really good at

fighting for his artist. Totally. Like, tooth and nail. He's fair. Yeah. He's stingy. He's fair. He also taught me...

We'll go frugal, but he's fair. Like a real true partner, you can go, you can stretch the rubber band farther. Like, if I think that you, if I truthfully trust that you're not saying something to be right or for any ulterior motive, except that you want it to be great, then we can have, like, really interesting conversation.

because I believe that you're not just pulling a power trip or trying to get your way, right? And that's special. I also wish that on everybody. You're super honest. Steve Greenberg, you're A&R guy. Greenberg is like, he has a knack for finding the things that work. He's got this weird little thing inside him

that knows when something's big, and there's nothing you want more in your life than Steve to know that what you have is big. Yeah. Because he's right, usually. Okay, next. Ian Kirkpatrick. Ian Kirkpatrick is like,

I always know, I'm trying to think of the word to say it, but I always know you have a chance at something fucking massive when you're with that guy. I don't always get it, but I know that the opportunity is like very possible because he's a freak.

Yeah, he's a freak. And so what's so exciting is, and also I think he complains comments me really well because he has a lot of things that I don't necessarily have. And so my opinion over his stuff makes for something cool. This is the idea of the art thing. Like I know if I write with him that there will be something artistic will come out of it. Yeah.

And I think the goal is still to walk away and be like, that was a fun day. And I think this song is unique. I also think that he's underrated in his, the little additions that he makes, like, vocally. as a writer. Yeah, he's a really good writer. So you get into a room with him and you think, like, oh, he's like the craziest track guy. But a lot of my favorite things are like little things that when I'm in the booth where he'll be like, what if you sang it like a little, like just ended it like this instead of like the way you did? And I always leave him like, oh, that's way better.

Yeah, yeah. It's amazing what one note will do. It's crazy. A lot of people just think it's like, I'll just sing it. Yeah. No, man, that note is a choice. Yeah. That performance is a choice.

Totally. What's advice you'd give to up-and-coming writers? I think a lot about this. I think that, I think my, my advice would be, know your point of view and then be unapologetic in it. Like, know what you have to offer, and then just don't be afraid that what you're doing might be different because that's usually the coolest shit

is when you are the one that's different, you know? Write so much more than you talk about writing. Oh, wow. So those two things. Know your opinion and your point of view. And then write, actually be a writer, way more than you are about talking about writing. Write 100 songs. That's like anybody that comes to me and says, like, how do I be like you?

I'm like, listen, let's not even talk any further. Have you written 100 songs? That will show me that you care and that you're a writer. Go write 100. When you said earlier when we were talking about Ben and you were like, well, would I stake my career on this? Yeah. No. Yeah.

My comment when people are like, hey, will you listen to my music or my cousin's music or my daughter's music or whatever it is? Yeah. Well,

maybe daughter is a tough one? But for most of them, I usually say like, is this something, before I listen to this? It's such a raw thing to do. I know there's a flow in the way we're having a conversation.

I want to completely stop that. Totally. I want a full-on, yeah. And I want you to just stop for a second before you ask me to, listen to your music because people will just forward it. Totally. People forward their emails to me or their cousins email, their friends of friends,

email, whatever, and say, hey, will you check this out? Yeah. And my response to them is, have you heard it? Do you love it? Like, love it. Is this something you would post on all your social media to say you discovered it? because if it's less than that then I want to hear it

then I want an email saying no you don't have to listen to it but if you make me listen to this and it isn't good then I will now judge your your ability to hear music from now on totally and it's not to say that

like there are sometimes so then I offer you but I just want to check because I love the Mike Karen one and he seems like he listened to everything yeah right where do we land on that You know, I don't listen to everything because it helps to have a cosign. Yeah.

You know, there's a reason why cosigning matters and there's a reason why that stuff happens. You know, if something's bubbling up enough and enough people are like, take a listen to this, eventually, of course, I'm going to listen to it. Yeah. And, you know, if it's sent to someone that I know and I trust them, I will listen to it. If somebody hasn't asked me to listen to music in 20 years of knowing them and they say, hey, will you listen to this? I tend to listen to it because usually they don't ask me. But my first thing to them is I just want you to go through the steps I have to go through.

So before I have to write the email why I don't like it and the advice that I'm going to give you forward on, I want you to listen to it first. And I want you to be objective. You are an expert in listening to music. Yeah. And you'd be surprised how many people then come back and say, you know what, this probably isn't, like, I don't know if this is really the quality that you're looking for or something like that. And I say, okay, thank you so much. Yeah.

Keep me posted on the next thing you have. Totally. Because I'm willing to listen. But if you're going to ask me to listen to something, I want it to be something that you feel proud enough that you would post on all your social media, that you would have all your family posts, that you would go to. to as far as I would have to go in order to make it as big as I think it can be. Yeah. Yeah, it's just there's a level of intensity

when you start getting at this level that has to be there. It has to be. And everybody that runs in the circle gets it, you know. The thing is, if you were a professional basketball player, and you're a really good basketball player.

I mean, but if you were, if you were, if you were a professional basketball player, and I was like, hey, do you want to look at my nephew play basketball? You'd be like, what? There is this And then you'd go into... That was another thing that I learned from the street

that there is, that was really good at such an early age to kind of dispel, is that there is this feeling that like art is kind of like, I don't know, hard to pinpoint what is working, what is... It's art, dude, it's art. But when you get on the street and you realize like, no, when I play this song, everybody stops. When I play all the other ones, they just keep walking. It's like really easy.

And you're out there and I'm watching you all do it. I play this. one, everybody stops, I get more money in my case, I can see by dollars that you like when I do this one and you don't like when I do that one. That's like really an important thing to realize. And I think, okay, so let me ask you this. What's your take on all of the

data and how that's shaping, how people are releasing music? You like it or you hate it? Well, on some level, you know, the whole Don't Boris get to the chorus thing really is effective. But is the new way to release music, just like release the album and then see what everybody likes and then make that the single.

That will continue to evolve, and it depends on what kind of artist you are. Sure. It depends what you're aiming for. As long as your objectives, if your objective is I want to have a Spotify hit. Sure. Then, yes, you should write accordingly. Totally. Which means that you need to avoid a skip rate by getting straight to the point.

So crazy, right? If that's your goal. Now, I talk to labels and stuff a lot where I'm like, if you want a song from a professional writer and you're going to just throw it at Spotify that or Apple or whatever any DSP if that's what you consider being a single

then the minute you do that and you don't continue to push it because there's a high skip rate or you're not sure most writers will probably not send you a song again because your inability to push beyond whatever the initial playlisting is.

Like, radio is bigger than it's ever been. People can say what they want, but radio is bigger than it's ever been. And in L.A. right now, there are

more than 10 times as many listeners at Kiss than there are in all Spotify subscribers that are splitting who they're listening to. Interesting.

So radio is still, came. Totally. Yeah. And it's, you know, the goal for me is still to reach as many people as possible as a writer and to have my, the artist I write with to reach as many people. And that means on some level finding the media that hits as many people as possible. And that you may see a lot of streams, but a stream will count a lot earlier than someone has to finish the song. On radio, to choose. If I play something on Kiss, your other

option is AMP. And once you get past that, you're like, I'm going to now look for a third station, or do I just sit and finish the song? And is that good or bad? As a writer, I want to compete with those guys. I want to win there. I want to write a song that you

are forced to listen to, and that when you're forced to listen to, you'll finish it. You finish it. And if I'm good at composition... You think it's like a different listening? This is something I'm like very interested in them right now. Is the listenership different when you listen to the radio or when you listen to Spotify?

Of course. Like how though? Well, there are two things. One is Spotify or playlisting as a whole. So it's not just Spotify. But playlisting as a whole is basically your Tinder of music. Totally. It's how people date now.

It's everything else. It's expendable. You just click on to the next one. You didn't invest any money into it really. and so we're just going to skip on to the next one and even if you finish the song I still didn't have to pay for it so I'll skip on to the next one

or I'll go back whatever it is but it's really expendable yeah it's also it speaks to a generation where their news feed is scrolled through yeah dude I was playing songs for a young kid the other day

and he just wasn't he was showing me songs and he wasn't even finishing songs like do you ever finish songs he's like not really like okay some of that I wonder is if it's composition.

Sure. And some of it I wonder if it's the media, the medium, because when you have something like Hamilton having as many streams as it had, that meant somebody went and listened through the two and a half hours of material because it's composed to be listened to

as such. Yeah. But when you're aiming for singles and you're aiming for volume, not to say that it can't also be quality but if you're aiming for volume I'm going to listen to it like that and I'm going to listen to it with the intent that you don't even want me to finish this

because you flew the choruses you didn't even go and do ad libs at the end I will know this and as a listener who's professional or not you will pick it up I think I don't think it's like shitty or cool or whatever it's just interesting

it's just like fascinating I love like listening going like, okay, how do we how do you keep this? But DSPs are, they are your, their virgin, their tower records.

And those playlists are your N caps. Yeah. Right? So you go into these things and you discover them and you look at the artwork and you may even choose

because of that. You may recognize the name. You may skip it entirely. You may flip through it. You may buy it. You may not. Yeah. You know, if...

In a writing room, are you caring about how it's going to go on Spotify? I think... Depending on who you're writing with. And as an artist, I'm like, I do care, but I care more that I get the proof. What do you mean the proof? The life proof. Like, that's what I... First of all, that's all, like, that's the biggest thing.

It's like, do you have the thing about life that is interesting to sing about? Which is the hardest, I think, to find. And then from there, it goes, okay, how's this going to, you know, as far as choosing singles, which one's going to work in which scenario. And it's been interesting now to have a bunch of different types of songs that have done really well in different formats. And sometimes I don't even know which format is going to work in.

I just know, like, I love that. And I think that has a home, you know. I mean, you're going to have a different, an artist gets to play shows and make money from that. Yeah. And an artist can make, and a label, can make money from Spotify or from Apple with such a low entry rate of cash,

they can make a serious amount of money in return. Why would they even go to radio? What is the logic for a record label to go to radio? They're going because they're promoting a brand and probably because they own some 360 aspect to that artist. Sure. So they're incentivized to go and build the brand and hit as many people as possible.

So that's why it's worth them going to radio for the artists where they can sell tickets where they can sell merchandise where they can become part of the brand. But if it's an artist where the brand doesn't really matter then why would you ever even go to radio? Why would you spend the money? It costs hundreds and hundreds of thousand dollars

to go to radio for a single. So why not just go to... You put half that money towards DSPs and other ways to do it, and you know, you're profitable. Do you like it better? I do like where it is right now. Well, of course you do. It's so interesting.

Of course you do. And the things that are working on Spotify or on the radio are like pretty awesome. But those are totally different songs. Totally. I know. Because the listenership is different. Yeah, it's nuts. You know, on any given Friday, there's a new list.

So, like, music doesn't last long. unless it does. Yeah. And so like I guess what's unique about is that like those top songs are not charting the same. The top songs that pop

are not the top songs on Spotify and vice versa. Sometimes they are and that's like amazing. Yeah, maybe one or two songs here there but it's very rare. It's shape of view. It's in Despecito. It's very, very few songs really translate in both.

Yeah. But it makes sense as an artist. It's a great time. Great time. And you have to care about all of it. As a writer, it's like, you will, you still need to, right now you still need to aim for a radio. If you're aiming for that Spotify hit, that Spotify hit that YouTube hit will not pay you anything. Not really. That's so crazy.

So that song, Fresh Eyes. No, I know. I'm not saying like, oh, you're teaching me something. I know this. Yeah. And it's crazy that. We've over 300 million. streams on fresh eyes. It's so nuts.

But the amount of money we made on Good to Be Alive is almost probably a hundred times more money. Nuts. Because the licensing, radio, whatever. I mean, Fresh Ed did well at Radio too, but the streaming does not create the publishing revenue that it does for the label.

Eventually that has to change. Does it? I mean, that's a whole other, that's another podcast. It's a different podcast. And it's frustrating because That's why I caution defining a songwriter as the guy who sits at the piano

who writes the song and then he goes and does his merry, he goes on his merry life that's not a songwriter anymore. Yeah. Songwriters has to make money from other facets. Totally. And labels have to compensate somehow. Well, to close out, first of all, thank you for doing this.

Dude, I love you. I love you too. When you released Fresh Eyes, the video I posted, reason number 254 the music industry should get behind artists like Andy Grammer. I couldn't be prouder to be associated with you.

You're showing that the anti-rebel in a society that glorifies rebels makes you the rebel. So thank you for letting me join the ranks of your rebellion. Full on rebellion, baby. I appreciate it. Thank you. All right. Congrats. Let's go.

Thanks for listening to this episode of And The Writer Is. If you want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed, be sure to check out our Spotify playlist, or visit our website at and thewriter is.com. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe to us on iTunes. You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter. And The Writer Is is produced by Joe London, edited by Miles Bergsmah, and published by Big Deal music.

A special thanks to David Silberstein from MegaHouple. music and Michael White. Until next time, this is Ross Bowling.