And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 38: Mike Posner

Episode Date: December 11, 2017

Our final guest of season two is an artist, songwriter, and producer hailing from the hip-hop scene of Detroit, Michigan. He was still a student at Duke University when he came up with the idea for his first single "Cooler Than Me" which went on be a multi-platinum hit and earn more than 3 million in sales in the US. Since then, he has become one of the industry’s most in-demand songwriters, penning hits for the likes of Maroon 5 ("Sugar"), Justin Bieber ("Boyfriend"), Big Sean ("Don't Tell Me You Love Me"), and Labrinth ("Beneath Your Beautiful"). His self-penned triple platinum smash “I Took a Pill in Ibiza” from his sophomore album ‘At Night, Alone’ hit #1 in the US and earned him a Grammy nomination for Song of the Year. In addition to a successful solo career, he is a member of the alternative hip-hop duo Mansionz with blackbear. We’re honored to have our season finale feature this inspirational artist and songwriter. And the writer is…Mike Posner!  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey guys, this is, and the writer is, and I'm your host, Ross Golan. I've written with hundreds of artists and writers over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life, the industry, politics, composition, whatever. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs, and most importantly, who the people are who write the songs. I'm producing this with the Great Joe London, big deal music publishing and mega house music management if you want to listen to the songs we

discuss in this podcast follow us on our socials find out about special events or buy some of our merchandise go to our website www www.andthe writer is.com oh and if you enjoy this podcast please rate us on iTunes or whatever your preferred podcast listening site is we really appreciate that effort welcome to and the writer is I am your host Ross Golan. This week's writer-artist is a multiversital pop star who has penned career-defining jams for others. He's got a tone that's undeniable, both as a lyricist and as a vocalist. He was releasing mixtapes when no one called them mixtapes. His introspection is what shocked music lovers in 2010, and it's what floored everyone around the world in 2016.

From the Detroit metropolitan area, this gentleman has continued the Detroit tradition of authenticity. And the writer is the guy at the top of the roller coaster, Mike Posner. So, brother. Hello.

It's quite the intro. I feel flattered. Yeah. We were just talking about the word Takaya because there's this Mexican restaurant in California that people order from

and that people who, what it means is something and somebody's going to call me out this because for sure this is wrong but it's something where it's like you come up you meet somebody who has the same name as you and you have this rapport immediately like if i meet another ross it's like hell yeah and you were saying when you meet other michael's that it doesn't cross your mind yeah i i was always cognizant of the fact that i was named michael because my parents looked up what

was the most common name so that may be layered onto this situation and they picked for my sister Michael Nell me, they picked the most popular names. On purpose? That's just how they did it, yeah. Wow. Whereas I would do the opposite, I'd be looked for some very, like, esoteric name that not many other kids would have for my child.

That doesn't exist yet. You know Freakonomics? I know of it. I haven't read it. There's a part of that where they talk about, you know, there's how much a name will influence the person's life. I mean, if you're called moonshine,

that that's going to be like, that's somehow going to affect your life differently than if your name's Michael. It's interesting to go almost to do the opposite route and to go with that the idea that, like, it's not going to be your name

that defines you, it's going to be your personality. Yeah, it is interesting. But I think the reason I brought that point up is when I see, it's almost like the name Michael didn't mean anything to me. So when I see,

maybe because of that narrative how I got it when I meet other Michaels it didn't mean much to me that's pretty interesting I feel no fraternal bond right right right so you you are born in

Detroit correct which is right near where my wife was born really where was she born Ann Arbor oh sick great but it's interesting there's all these incredible musicians from Detroit I mean, there's such a lineage of people, you know, let alone Motown, which is just insane.

And even in a contemporary way, having white stripes and having M&M, what is it about Detroit that seems to create these crazy lyricists? That I don't know what the thread between all of this is. I mean, it could be the weather. it could be something as woo-woo as the birds maybe melodically and people can like turn this podcast off right now but my mother always tells a story that when I was two I went on the in our backyard

and I would hear the birds and try to repeat the melodies back to them and I really do believe that the melodies that come out of my brain in the studio are very influenced by those birds that I grew up around. That's amazing. Do you remember the first song that you sang? Like when you were walking around?

Ever? I mean, I actually don't, no, I actually don't even remember doing that. My mother tells me that. I don't remember. You will for sure you don't remember the birds part. But do you remember, like, I think my first album is like, was like Toto, Rosanna. I used to walk around and be like,

Rothera. I remember, like, we were talking about kids songs yesterday. I mean, like, skidamarinka, dinky dink, skidamarinky doo. I love you. Yeah. I love you in the morning and underneath, or in the afternoon, love you in the evening and underneath the moon. That's a different melody.

I think, I think, no, what's interesting about that, the skidomarinky dinky dink, and then you have something like, I know that there's obviously a different, etymology to it, but something like the bough chikawa while later. And the idea of finding songs that were some of the hook doesn't have to be a lyric. You know, it's super interesting. Sometimes it is like the sound of the birds. Like sometimes it literally can be a sample of something that you just wouldn't expect.

And I think that's like pretty interesting. And it probably has a lot to do with the kind of music you were raised. around. I think so. Did your parents do music? No, no. No one in my family really does. My mother can sing, she's a pretty voice but she never really pursued it or did anything with it.

When did you start doing music? I started writing songs when I was eight. I started rapping. Songs probably in the form of like long rap verses. I guess maybe not even really songs.

You remember any of them? Writing verses. No, I don't. I don't. People always ask me that. Well, show me one. I'm like, well, I remember they're bad. Yeah, yeah.

Sure. Did you perform them for people or your family or something? Family. I had two older cousins. I'm sitting next to one of my cousins now, but we have another cousin named Tulsey Anderson, who's a wonderful MC, Underground MC in Seattle. He just goes by Tulsi, T-U-L-S-I.

And then we have another family friend named Eli Sweet, both of which were like really great emcees and I thought they were like I really looked up to them and about 10 years older than me. And so I would I would write my raps and show them and they were always really encouraging but also honest. Show me where I could get better and You know and then we I remember having a sleepover With a couple of my buddies and we'd all gathered these like little instrumentals. Like someone had a Project Pat

like single and it was like the explicit, the clean and the instrumental. And like I had this Moby album which had a lot of just beats on it and we just freestyle that night. And my buddies were that, you know, it was fun for them and they

like that was it. And I never really stopped after that. That's crazy. So did you I mean obviously you're having Moby beats. It kind of makes sense. when you think about it because you and not to jump all the way to when you're starting to do your mixtapes

but you have all these musical backgrounds and yet these lyrics feel they feel conversational but they have that rhythmic kind of vibe to it that feels like it's a freestyling thing it feels like you're like writing

raps over you know over like I don't want to say more melodic chord changes Do you know what I mean? Wholeheartedly, the thing is a very astute observation on your part because I've rapped longer than I've sung.

And it wasn't until I was about 20 years old that I started putting melody, basically putting melody to my raps. And my whole thing was I wanted to sing the way, I was such a hip-hop fan, I wanted to sing the way I wanted to hear a singer sing. So with my first song I talked about in the intro, first hit song Cooler than me It's got like a complex rhyme scheme

Where I go design or shades to hide your face I never really heard Singer sing with those kind of rhymes It was like it was just fun thing for me to try But yeah I'm definitely like I definitely was a rapper first Did you have a name as a rapper ever Or were you always

When I was very young it was just Mike P and then I decided very early on that I didn't want to have a moniker that was different from my name in my life because my music was meant to be

connected to my life, not separate. And I made that decision. Yeah, I made that decision. Probably was 14, 15 years old and it's still I still feel the same way. about that topic. Were you actually, like,

are there mixtapes and versions of these songs that exist from high school? Were you starting this process before you went to college? I mean, I mean, the story from you, from college on,

there's a lot of information about it. Yeah. But, like, you're in the middle of Michigan. I assume at the time that's right around, I don't know, is that pre-M&M? Or is that kind of like

right in the prime of that, right? Eminem was seemingly, it's a bias but in my experience, it seemed like Eminem was most popular when I was in 8th or 9th grade or maybe 7th, 7th, 9th grade.

Did you feel like you wanted to be a... I mean, so the reason why I'm bringing that up is more because he's from Detroit than because he's a white rapper. Sure. But, you know, it kind of opened the door. Eminem definitely has like a influence on my... I think on American culture as a whole, but definitely in my life for sure.

Yeah, and I mean, you know, his internal rhyme schemes are so unique. And it seems like I'm, you see the videos I'm freestyling and it's just out of control. It's out of control. You know, I don't understand how people can freestyle like that. I understand how people can craft that. That's a whole other thing than being able to just off the cuff make these rhymes. Like Lynn Manuel now with like Hamble. That guy can freestyle.

There are very few people who can really like freestyle. You know, like, were you doing things like rap battles and stuff like that? Yeah. He's doing the football games in my high school. And like, battle kids. It'd be like a little 20, 30 person crowd,

you know, a circle around me and some other poor kid who I'd inevitably annihilate. Yeah. Who was actually probably, I was very small for my age as well. I didn't really grow until I was 17, 18. So there are always people much bigger than me, you know. Yeah.

I could kind of win at that, which is nice. There's like a status game there where it's like you think that sometimes being like the Goliath gives you power. You know, but sometimes it makes you slow. You know, or sometimes it's like all those advantages are the things you can poke at, especially when you're verbalizing it Yeah You know Because you have fans in high school

I've recorded an album My senior year In my mother's On my mother's computer And And printed up maybe I think we did like 700 Or 800 or 800

Like CDs And sold them all Crazy Yeah I just saw it like the trunk of my car But I mean these are all kids who knew, they've grown up with me. Yeah, but 700 and 800

like that's, how big was your high school? I think it's about 1,300 total. So everybody in high school must have known or at least heard it. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. Were you playing venues in Detroit?

No, I didn't play any shows. I didn't play any shows until I was in college. Did you have any of the songs like, cooler than me in high school? Did you have any of those songs, or like even the lyric stuff started. No. That really changed for me

moving to, my music in high school was very pedantic and wordy and dark. You know, I was, I had a real tough time in high school. I would get very depressed.

Why? It just seemed like the winter time really, you know, it would come around like clockwork every year. where, you know, we would get to school at 7 a.m. Sun is not up yet. I'd go to, like, basketball practice or something after. And when I left, the sun was down.

And, yeah, it just felt like... I remember thinking, like, none of this matters. School doesn't matter. My life doesn't matter. It's not, like, really a point to all this. Did you feel like that translated in, like, your relationships with other people around you? yeah of course

how could it not right you know if you feel like nothing matters it's probably not going to be giving your all to your friends or your or anything really that being so I did really well in school I was like a straight A student

I got one B plus actually in band but other than that your 1B plus was in band yeah that's pretty funny yeah you were really good of physics but you just couldn't seem to figure out music The thing was I was really good in band But the teacher

Band was really like arbitrary grade We didn't have like test per se You know we just like We'd show up and play music And then the teacher would give us a grade And the teacher and I Didn't get along super well I mean they have to know now

What you were capable of I don't know yeah Like is there some hometown newspaper that has written about your success there has to be i have i have gone back to my high school you have yeah yeah i shot a music video there um first one to a big sean called top of the world that's so crazy so you brought big sean back to your high school he didn't come to that scene that's pretty funny yes i shot a video there so you go to um uh you go from high school to duke which is like one of the best schools in the country so obviously you go to um you go from high school to

Duke, which is like one of the best schools in the country. So obviously the other A's, the non-band grades, that helped you out. Were you good at taking tests and everything? Yeah. Yeah. So did you like, were you

thinking at the time, yeah, I'm going to go and you weren't going to Duke. No one was going to Duke to pursue being a musician. No, it's a good question. I honestly felt like, oh, I did my album, I'm done with that. And I'm going to go make a lot of money

and really stick it to all these kids that I'm going. That's part of the reason I went to Duke. Actually, the reason I went to Duke, and it's a terrible reason was I wanted to beat everyone in my high school. That was really the beginning of chapter

two of my life. Chapter one of my life was, whoa, I'm in the world. And I'm overwhelmed by the world. I'm little, what does it mean? I'm in the world. So I start chapter two, which was, I'm going to beat the world. Right? And chapter two is really a reaction to chapter one, right?

Because I'm overwhelmed by this thing, I'm just going to fight it and beat it and beat everyone else in it, do better than them. Did that personality? Like, that's got to be hard sometimes to, for relationships with people also. Oh, yeah. You know, like, because did you feel like you were better than people? I had a magical cocktail and it's great to talk about this

because I've been doing a lot of work with this I just finished two courses of the landmark form which I highly recommend to anyone because it's jamming and I also spent a week in solitude last month where I was in a cabin on the property of a monastery

but I had no human contact for seven days and I had this prior to doing this work I had this really deadly cocktail of thinking I was both not good enough but also better than everyone else right

so I was really living my life that way and doing those three things the two landmark courses in the week alone allowed me to see that right because it was just kind of running

like a machine in the background and once I was able to see the machine running, the act of seeing it puts you outside of it, right? To look at something you have to be outside of it and it'll allow me to create a new possibility for myself outside of that, which for me

is having people around me feel noticed and uplifted and loved. It sounds like just words, cliche words, but it's been a real paradigm shift for me to live a life that's not about me. Yeah, actively, there's a difference between being emotionally in the room with everybody else. There's another thing to actively love people.

There are some people who are really who actively put that energy out there, which is a different thing than being, you can just be a positive person and you naturally put some stuff, in the world. But you can even go one step further and actively be involved in other people's lives.

Right. Have the point... Like, lift people up, you know? Sure. Have the point of your life be that the other people's lives be great. Sure. As opposed to your life being great. And of course, your life will be great by doing that. And so it's a

bit counterintuitive. But that just changed my whole world. Yeah. It changed my whole world. Because I really I would do nice things for people when it was convenient or select relationships here and there and look out for someone but really I was

chapter two trying to beat the world and I finally feel like I'm in chapter three which is loving the world being with the world and helping it yeah in that chapter two you get you start that you walk in to duke kind of the chip on your shoulder

oh yeah oh yeah but you were social i mean you know at least from what i read you were in a fraternity you were like you're starting to still you're still rapping during all this right so i mean

do you have a chip on your shoulder and it's interesting that you say that like this whole idea of like cooler than me being your first single Like, it's so honest When you talk about like this chip on your shoulder Of like You think you're cooler than me

It's like it's profoundly honest Yeah You know Yeah Did you, were you writing this really vulnerable music Considering that you have a chip on your shoulder That seems to be counterintuitive It's unusual to have an antagonist as the listener

And have a be so charming Antagonist as the listener Like when you're saying like you think you're cooler than me I'm talking to the listener and almost insulting them. Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. And yet there's something really charming about it.

I think that's really difficult. It's rare that songs like that work. You know, I mean, look at all the other songs. No, it's true. I mean, all the other songs, you know, beneath your beautiful boyfriend, sugar, you know, all these songs, none of, there's no, like, you know, even please don't go. None of them have a bad guy. But your first single is a little bit of, like, addressing your chip on your shoulder, like,

right off the back. Yeah. And I really felt that about a lot of the females at my school. Like they didn't know how special I was. So this was my jab, my get back. And that's not something I'm proud of, you know, saying that. Because I didn't allow anyone in, you know. It was all a game I was setting up to continue being right about that, you know.

but yeah does that make sense? Yeah I mean there's a lot of irony in the fact that you write that song my guess is that there were a lot of girls that started to come out of the woodwork after that. Yeah, with that song, of course, right?

You know, someone who really was embarrassed, had a tough time speaking to girls growing up and still, even when that song came out in college still felt the same way, very shy and then all of a sudden this song about like basically being rejected by girls is getting me girls right and then it seems like we're going kind of in chronological order but i'm going to jump ahead to when i wrote it took a pill in abiza which is basically about failing or

the period after one's worldly success and then that brought me more more more than more more worldly success. Right. So, yeah, I've had this sort of... Amazing balancing act. Crazy.

Yeah. I was going to bring down windows down by big time rush, but we can pass it. That was an interesting thing that was me, Black Bear, and B major, or Major Ali now. I think he just goes by Major.

That's crazy. Then there was... Someone else. wrote on that song. Is that how you guys met? No. Do you know my Black Bear? Yeah.

We met, I heard, when I was promoting my first album, you know, doing promo overseas and I'd have long flights and Mike Karen and Ben Madahi I used to always ask them for, like, give me a big folder, a beats

for my flights. for my flights and they'd send me like 70 beats and I'd listen to them all and I kind of write on the plane and in one of these folders was a couple of tracks

produced by MDL and they had hooks on them by Matt Musto who later became Black Bear and I just loved them and I was like well I want to do a session with those two guys and Matt lived in Florida at the time

so we flew Mike and my Karen and I flew him out and we did a session MDL me and bear and I think like this boyfriend we used to just like we hit it off we hit it off we used to work here like pretty much every day we do a song a day the only time we spent two days on a song was we did that song boyfriend for beaver it's like oh we can finish this tomorrow like it's good enough to revisit this like we felt good about it. How soon after you finished it.

That was originally for you, though, right? Yeah. All of them were originally for me. Right. Yeah. Is it hard? You don't like writing for other people? I don't really know how to, honestly. All the cuts I have for other people, if they're not done in the room with the artist that's not right with labyrinth, you know, for labyrinth.

We can do it together. But if I have ever ever cut that, like, someone to have done and then they separately take it it's always something I've done for myself and then either you know it usually just doesn't fit where I'm going artistically so boyfriend you you finish for yourself

I know this isn't this isn't a weird place in your record deal at the time like you had already done you know you're cooler than me please don't go bow Chihuahua all are pretty successful and then you go and do you're working on the next album right after that and boyfriend is part of that?

Is that what the process? Am I on the right page? Yeah. When this is happening? I had released, I believe, a single for my next album. It was supposed to be my next album. That's called The Way It Used to Be. And you're right, those songs were all successful,

but they were all progressively less popular. So cooler than me was first, and that was my first single. did really well and I thought oh this is what happens when I put singles out you know it's pretty cool and then I put up please don't go and it did well but not as well and did boucho go and did well but not as well

as please don't go and then way it used to be did not as well as boucho was etc so I had really postured myself as someone who if I didn't have another big hit single his album my album wasn't going to come out and I didn't have one and uh

whose fault is that that's my fault you know my life is my life you know so um if you blame the circumstances in your life you have no power right because there's always a i can find a reason but that shifts the responsibility of that situation to someone else then i look in the present moment then i'm still I'm still beholden to the circumstances now if that's how I choose to view my life but I choose to view my life as I'm the author of it and the decisions that I make

the choices I make create the results that I have in it right and that's a does that make sense? Of course. Okay I wish I had a nice metaphor to attach to this idea

but I don't really at the moment I'll think of one probably tonight after this podcast is over Just give me writing credit But yeah You got it On my metaphors You know, I just got shot you out

Exactly It's gonna be But that's a really It's a really A point I don't want to breeze over You know For the people listening

Which is It's your fault The thing's going wrong In your life right now It's your fault Your fault Your fault and really look

and own that and once you do you know I have the freedom to make new decisions and create new possibility for yourself I've done some I've kind of referenced this before

I'd done some crummy things yeah what were those well one of them was when I did the song cooler than me I had a band at the time and we were called Mike Posner and the Brain Trust was my band at Duke

it was me Eric Holges who's now singer in a band called Delta Ray, who's incredible. And we had a guitarist named Jeff. Oh. And when we wrote the song, Jeff came up with the chords for the bridge. And then when we went, the school year ended,

we all went home for summer break, and we came back, Jeff didn't bring his guitar back. And I was offended. You know, I was like, well, you don't believe in the, I don't know why I didn't really talk to him I decided that he didn't believe in the project or whatever and he told me he's I'm gonna get guitar like fall break or something like that it was like the band was real serious for me

I wanted to like take over the world and I'm not sure like I had he was into it that way which is fine you know it's fine like he may have different goals so it came time to do the splits on the song I screwed him I paid him as a session musician. We really should add, like, small percentage to the pub because he came up with the chords to the bridge, and we wrote the melody to the chords that he came up with

and wrote the lyrics to the melody that was written over the chords, et cetera. And it wasn't until this year. That was seven. That was 2009. It was 2017 now 8 years ago It wasn't until a month ago I was like I gotta make this thing right

You know every time I think about this song I think about how I screwed this guy And so I I talked to my manager of Ryan Who's in the other room I was like we could like add up How much money I owe him And it wasn't a small amount

and I called him and I was like I told him exactly what I just told you I was like I screwed you man I'm gonna send you this I'm gonna change a split so going forward like you know it just goes to you and he said thank you you're so generous

I said no you're not hearing me like I like stole this from you it's not generous you know this is yours okay so what's the point of this story well now that i've taken responsibility for that action right it's like i made the choice to screw him well i gave me the freedom one to like pay him now right because before i had some reason it was all justified in my mind but no no no i made the choice me you know and now i was able to one pay him what he's owed right

which I don't know how it would affect his life. I think it will have some effect in some way, hopefully a positive one. And it also now going forward gives me the freedom to make a different choice. Right? So I'll never make that mistake again. But if I pretended like the reasons

were the impetus for making the choice to screw him, those reasons could show up again. again and I would make the same choice. So the ownership, right, is big and it gives freedom. The responsibility gives freedom, you know, to be

who you want to be. So interesting, because I think we all, you know, every song is a new business deal with the people around you. I think people assume that because you're doing splits on an asset.

Every time you're created intellectual property, whatever it is. It doesn't have to be a song. It could be whatever business, whatever idea you have. With someone else in the room, you guys are splitting this intellectual property in some pie. And it's easy for people who have the power in the room to just take just incredible advantage of it.

And also there's so many people who do it and don't make it. Right. I did it another time, too. What was that? I did it to Black Bear. I did it to Black Bear and boyfriend. And I did the same call. And you guys are in a band already at the point.

Now we are. Now we are. I called on. I was like, well, then I did it with Jeff. And I was like, well, this is the only other time I think I've done this. And I got to make it right. And I called him up. I was like, I said, I'm sorry.

like I'm gonna you know send you what I owe you and and he said you know I forgive you I've moved on we've kind of talked we had kind of talked about he said the only thing that that really hurt me was the big fish conversation I said what what's that what's that I don't even remember that he said you called me he called me when we were doing like the deal on the splits and you said sometimes big fish, eat little fish. Well, I just felt so terrible hearing that back, right? It's like I can't even imagine saying that to someone now. It's so like against everything I believe in now. But I did that, you know? And so...

Why do you think you were like that? I decided... Like, what were those justifications? When you say like there were all those justifications, A couple of things One I felt like I felt like No one knows how special I am

I would set it like we talked about a little earlier I'd set it up so no one could know how special I was And so because I was like misunderstood Then I could justify taking my shots back at the world Here and there Right I'm this underappreciated genius

Right And so what I'm losing out and what I'm not getting by being misunderstood by the world, I'll sort of even the score by doing things like this. And this is all over my life. I broke up with my ex via text message. It's most like one of the, like I'm so ashamed of that. you know um

but yeah it wasn't until like this year I mean in the last few months like calling these people and saying sorry and actually being sorry right not just saying it right and asking what was that like for you you know and hearing

how that really affected them and now I'm not that person anymore and the proof is right that I called now the proof is I paid the money back you know like before I never did that. And so chapter three.

Chapter three. Do you think that having a song become so successful, like you were saying, that's really about failure? And the original recording is so heartfelt. It's so real. I mean, it feels that way. Do you think that seeing the success come from something that honest, and vulnerable

that there's no room for you to have this facade anymore you know what I mean like it's like it's like in the open like now we all know that you think like it's like you opened up this part it was like no longer about like this no one else was at fault that song is literally

about like I spent my money and it's this PSA you know like don't you don't want to do this like I did you know it's like you totally go out there and you just like leave that out there i hear you there there's a couple things i want to say one having no facade can become a facade in itself um so so that's a and then i just i've been talking a lot to um if you haven't already you should have i'd like to hear

you have them on the on the show uh taylor goldsmith from dawes um who in my opinion is like one of of our best writers now, period. Crazy. And he has a song, Dawes has a song called A Little Bit of Everything. Who, probably some of your listenership has heard that song, and the other half, or the other percentage that hasn't heard it,

should listen to it twice. And the first time, as you know, you'll hear sort of the sonics of the song and the melodies in some words. and the second time you'll hear the words and you'll probably be crying and you'll be blown away by his writing and what's special about that song is

it starts off for his lyric is with his back against the San Francisco traffic on the bridges side that faces towards the jail setting out to join in a demographic he hoist his first foot up over the rail right so a guy about to kill himself

and by the end of this song he's taking you from there to one of the moments of being it as Kerouac said one of those moments of unfiltered purpose and meaning and having everything makes sense and I've been talking to him because and I took the first two verses of that song

kind of do what I took a pill and a bees it does where it's like it's unabendable bashedly real and honest but he didn't stop there he then gave hope at the end gave the shine of light at the end and i stopped there and i took a pill and a bee just really was like hey this is dark and look how dark it is and isn't it so it's kind of beautiful how dark it is but I haven't then shown the light at the end is that the next is that this chapter

yeah that's the whole next project you know um you know just by being in the world you affect the world right and pretending you don't affect the world

affects the world so yeah whether you like it or not you're still a butterfly you're still in it you know and um I've just

I've just decided and I'm realizing that, you know, I make a difference. I make a difference, you know. To my family, to the people I work with, to my friends, who I am affects their lives. And to my fans, I make a difference in their life too. And, you know, I have people come up to me to save this song, like, Save My Life, or a song, like, Change My Life, Help Me Get Sober, et cetera. And I wasn't like, I wasn't trying to do that ever.

I was always just writing for me. And so now it's like I'm finally in a, I finally have a life where the people around me matter to me. And my fans matter to me now. So the music is this, this offering to the world, right? It's not some way to like take a jab at the world or make a mark on it, right? That metaphor is really poignant, right?

Make a mark on the world. It's like a little violent, right? It's almost like you're hurting the world to be noticed. That's interesting. I think of making a mark on the world, like tagging it. You know, like it could be like making a mark on the world,

not like leaving a scar, but leaving like a muriel. A mural? A mural? A mural. A mural. A mural. A mural.

A mural. A little Jewish aunt. Yeah, a little Jewish aunt. But, you know, leaving a mural on the wall is like marking the world tour, leaving music in the zeitgeist. Yeah. The mark doesn't have to be. But isn't it like, it's still about you. You know?

It's like, I want to be so cool and I want to do such a good job of being cool that even when I'm dead, I still look cool. Yeah, right. It's still all about. you know it's like we talk about a lot how stupid legacy is it's you know what I mean because like in in nobody Beethoven's only 160 years ago 150 years ago do you know I mean like it most people can't tell the difference between Beethoven and Bach which is you know 300 years ago not less than 300 years ago no most people can't tell the difference between you know like a commoner wouldn't know the difference between Coltrane and Miles Davis,

and they don't even play the same instrument. You know, like people don't, the biggest names in history, like people don't know the difference between the Who and probably the Rolling Stones now. They don't. Like, a kid won't know that. So, like, who's going to give a shit about, like, you know, no one's going to listen to any song that I've done in 50 years,

70 years from now, 100 years, even if it's unless it's imagine which even that like you're right it's like even if you do write one of those still zoom out like 500 or a thousand years and it's yeah when's the last time you sing a song from the year 800 like you know what I mean it's gone well it's weird it's like Pacabelle can and it's like he's like the one guy who gets his name and like you know it's like I don't know what that is that chord change, which is like is Pacabelle's canon. A lot of people walk down the aisle to that. It's also like, but it also ends up being the core progression on a bunch of Green Day

records kind of thing. You know, it's like, you know, it's just like a common sort of like chord change. Yeah. But really like, you know, nobody will remember. And that doesn't sound defeatist. I don't think that's a bad thing. I don't think it's bad that there's no... I just think people are sometimes into music for the wrong thing.

Or they think they're more important than they really are rather than being like in the moment putting out good energy is as valuable as anything else you do. But isn't that... Like, it's... They're into music or the wrong thing because they're into life for the wrong thing. Right?

It's still in chapter two. And that's like, I feel weird, like overusing... that metaphor. No, I like it. We're only going to do this interview probably once unless we do it in like 20 years from now or three years from now. And then, hopefully.

Chapter 81. Is it so old. Have you meant my wife, Muriel? Chapter 82, Muriel. He comes to with casserole. That's not to say like everyone's life has that same trajectory. Right, but it's a deeper issue, right?

Someone doing music for that reason looks at life that way. And they, whether they've sat down and made that decision or they're just living that way because they, it just like their life kind of happened that way, it doesn't make a difference. It's still living their life for themselves. Sure. And imagine a world where people didn't do that. Yeah. I mean like How peaceful would it be

if everyone was like Not trying to make themselves the focus And it's so funny Because it's a change in the mind But it's like if We're in Venice right now Right and five minutes away There's a lot of homeless people

On that boardwalk And if the people in this Just like in this neighborhood Who which one of them is me Right if we decided That homelessness on that beach was no longer acceptable

so people would all be inside quick but it's that we've decided that it is acceptable you know and it's a collective decision that I'm a part of you know it's like

but it's just we just change our minds you know the whole thing and then the action comes right right and she's like quickly you know

that building in London that burned you know a couple months ago It's like this building burned down and killed, you know, whatever, 50, 60 people. And then it also, it displaced like 150 low-income families. And one of the problems London has is that all these rich people throughout the world own London property but don't live in it. So they have all these vacant, beautiful homes that could house all these people immediately.

Yeah. But they had nowhere to put these families. and yet there's all these homes right around the area that are just vacant. 100%. And how gross that is. All these people are homeless after having their homes burned down

because of negligence by the British government at the time. And then they don't have the power to open up those doors to the people that are left. I hear you. But I also know, like, my home's going to be vacant next week. Right.

You know? Right. Should we tell him your address? Maybe. Yeah, exactly. Two last questions. One is when you look back on something like Sugar and Boyfriend, which are two massive hits for two massive artists that were originally for you.

In Chapter 3, I don't know if you look at those as representing you now anymore than you didn't think they represented you then those songs as an artist. I want to say they necessarily didn't represent me. Do you look at those as positive things that happened in your life? Yeah, for sure. I mean, also, like we talked about

before, I was shelved, you know. So my music wasn't coming out. And I think it was my fault as we talked about. But it was a pretty simple decision because they were kind of like let Adam Levine or Justin Bieber sing your songs.

or leave them on your laptop. That was really the decision. That's a pretty easy decision. That is an easy decision. And I don't regret it at all. Of course. I have really good relationship with, like, a friendship with Justin, you know. And we're not like, we're going to talk every day, but we're cool.

And so, you know, I've toured with them. So that was really beautiful, came out of that. And my relationship with James Valentine from Room 5 is awesome. Like you're sitting next to his guitars right now. Yeah, he's amazing. He also said he would do this. Yeah. He's fantastic.

Fantastic, man. But he's like a great human. Unbelievable human. Yeah, I love that guy. And yeah, so all that, like, came out of doing that stuff. And, you know, like, when we did Sugar, Luke, like, finished that track and just being able to go in. And then I was like, can I just come watch? And he was like, yeah, of course.

And, you know, learning so much watching Luke finish something, right? Finish something that's, like, very close to done, but like finish it. Yeah. You know. Like, like, taking note. James and I still talk about those sessions. I took notes today, you know. Yeah.

Yeah. So we do a segment where I list five people and you just say the first thing that comes off the top of your head. Okay. Big Sean Inspiration Black Bear Pure

David Massey The head of your record label Sweetheart Avichi Talented Okay and then last one Jack Kerouac Genius

Troubled genius Troubled genius Well I feel like you know when you say usually I ask people to leave a message for writers well I guess I shouldn't put words in your mouth what's a message you would leave for upcoming writers yeah your job is to create the art

that you want to exist in the world period it's very simple job what you like what you want to exist what you think is cool it's your job to make that because nobody else can nobody else can if you're doing what I you think I'll think is cool or what you think

Ross things are good that's our job your job is to make what you hear in your head that's it's very simple have fun doing it I love that well I first heard about you in 2010 I think

and you were about to play the Roxy and it must have been your first time through LA but like it's before cooler than me really became a hit but everyone was like Was Big Sean with me? Maybe. Yeah. But I mean, I was so out of the loop.

I was in a band. I wasn't like really co-writing. We didn't really talk about Big Sean either. What? Just quickly for the record. I met Big Sean summer after high school right before I went to Duke. And I was basically like a part of his entourage. I used to do beats for him and do hooks for him.

I didn't know anyone else. So my freshman year at Duke, I'd just like, I'd do like 100 beats. of years, sometimes with hooks and send them all to Sean. He'd use like one or two of them. And when I did do my first mixtape, he gave me three verses. And that was a big reason why anyone listened to me. And just for everyone in our crew, he made this all real. Like this life that I have now, I didn't think could actually happen until he, like, he, like, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, He got Sye to Kanye and to Island Def Jam

and that was like the guy I was rapping with like you read freestyle together you know so it's like whoa I could do it too and I'm going to here I go so that's why when you bring his name of I say inspiration because I wouldn't be here

for one for him I didn't interrupt you no I mean to interrupt you no I mean like I had so many notes like dude I looked back on that I was like I have to put that in the story asterisk I love that though like this is this is

the thing. It's like, you know, you're, you're a pretty public human. You know, it's easy to find out a lot about the surface stuff that you've gone through it. And well, you can tell certainly from the press from Pill and Abiza's that you've had a chance to start putting out a message as like a person outside of like being an artist in a way. I don't know if that makes sense. Like there was like, there's like a more feeling like a spiritual connection to what you're saying in the press you're very open about I think the because the lyrics are so vulnerable you were also really vulnerable in the press you know and I think like the whole point of this podcast is to show attainability and the show that you know artists and songwriters are also people like they're just they're just people

and this is the profession they chose. Just like you guys. Yeah, kind of. Like everybody's like, you know, people are motivated and they're, they might see art easier, whatever. But it's that this is really a good artist is somebody who can pull from their life. And the edginess in pill and abysa isn't that you took a pill. I think that's the important part.

It's like that didn't come from The edginess a lot of times when somebody's like Oh we want songs they're edgy They seem like just say fuck or shit And all of a sudden it's edgy And it's like no no no no it becomes really like cliche edgy right off the bat But what makes something edgy to me

Is when someone talks about something That no one else is willing to say And I know my story was Not as big of the peak in Valley Before the higher peak But there certainly were like massive peaks and valleys for me. Well, I talked to Benny about that too,

because we were having a talk like this, and I said the same thing to him. I was like, we're talking about money or something. I was like, well, I haven't made that much, but, and he goes, you feel the same feelings, though. Right. So the circumstances of your rise and fall, and particulars are different, but we felt the same emotion.

I didn't interrupt you. No, I just think it's the idea of being vulnerable in your music. And it's obvious and it's like I hope other artists that have the ability to write because not all artists do but I hope the other artists that have the ability to write can take note in

how you are actively being humbled and humble like you were saying it's hard to be a an active lover of human sometimes. Some people, one of my friends once said, you're kind of close-minded to close-minded people. Wow. And that, like, really, and that was really hard for me to hear. Because, like,

there's, there's, like, an elitist nature for people who tend to be, personally, I'm more on a liberal side of things. And there's, like, an elitist nature of people who are like, no, I love everybody. So I hate the people who hate people. But, like, that's not really how they go. and you don't love everybody. And, you know, it's, it's just hard to be, it's hard to be humbled. It must be really hard to be humbled when you have reached the pinnacle of your profession out of college. And then your rise again gives you an opportunity to open doors for a lot of people. I love how you are willing to admit

and to make up for things that you've done wrong and there are so many people who are, I know, listen to this podcast that if there's one person out there who listen to that part of the story and did the same thing,

it would have a massive ripple effect. I think there probably will be. I hope so. I thank you for giving us both that platform today. You know, That's why I wanted to do this with you. And the big excuse I always had was I'm working on myself. You know, I'm learning to meditate.

I'm doing the trips to India. You know, I'm taking yoga, et cetera. And in a couple years, I'll have improved to the point where I'm going to do what I actually want to do now. Right? And I'm working on myself. big cop-out people use in the city and I was the king of it you know it's like uh because I'm putting the work in the effort in I'm meditating I'm reading this this spiritual book that gives me

then then I can use that as an excuse to be a dick right now because I'm not done doing the work and one day later I'll be okay no no you you're perfect right now you're whole and complete and you're pretending you're not and you're wasting your life pretending you're not you know my dad died in January this year and

I don't know if you have your parents with you but it just reminds you you're next you know it's so easy to pretend we're never no you don't have forever and probably 98% of people listening to this right now have a list

of what they want to do in their life and they have another list of what they actually do in their life and there's some reason, some justification that they, or I'll say you, I'm talking directly to whoever's listening, that you have, there's some reason why you're not doing what you actually want to do now. And that reason I really invite you to look at it and ask yourself, is it actually real? or did I make it up

so I don't have to be who I actually am, which is this great person, this amazing, powerful person. I love that. Get out there. Yeah. Get after it, you know. Well, on that note,

let's get after some meditating. Yeah, do you want to hear it with Stenage R&B upstairs? Let's go up there. We'll meditate to that. Yeah, exactly. I feel like there's some shirts off up there. All right, man. Thank you. Thank you.

Thanks for listening to this episode of And The Writer Is. If you want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed, be sure to check out our Spotify playlist. Or visit our website at and thewriteris.com. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe to us on iTunes. You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter. And The Writer Is is is produced by Joe London, edited by Miles Bergsmah, and published by Big Deal Music. A special thanks to David Silber. from Mega House Music and Michael White.

Until next time, this is Ross Golan.