And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 4: Sean Douglas

Episode Date: February 21, 2017

From Los Angeles, CA, he is one of the most diverse songwriters in the game. His lyrical wit is always evident whether he’s writing club bangers or Country ballads. He is not just a songwriter, but a song-crafter. He was nominated for a Grammy this year for Best Country Song. And the writer is…Sean Douglas. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey guys, this is and the writer is with Ross Golan. I've written with hundreds of writers and artists over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life and the industry, politics, composition, whatever. If you ask me, songwriters are some of the most worldly and intelligent people I've ever come across. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs. And most importantly, who the people are who write the songs. I'm co-producing this with my friend Joe London,

who's nominated for Grammy this year. He records every interview and makes sure we sound like angels. So if you like what you hear, please rate us on iTunes, or whatever your preferred podcast listening site is. In this episode, we have Sean Douglas. Sean just got nominated for Best New Country Song for Die Happy Man, which he co-wrote

with the artist Thomas Wrett and our producer, Joe London. He's had hits with Jason Derulo and Fifth High. Harmony, David Gedda, amongst many others. And that's his forte. I mean, I think people in the music industry tend to pigeonholed songwriters. So when a guy has a number one EDM song and a number one rhythmic song

and then a number one country song, that says a lot about how this writer has navigated through the pitfalls of the music industry and how they've established themselves as somebody who can actually make songs that really transcend the genre. Sean is one of those guys who really exemplifies that. So I'm glad we have them as our guest today.

As we usually do, we're going to go through a few people you need to know to understand this episode. There's Benetta, who's Julian Beneta, who's a great producer. He's executive produced One Direction. He's now executive producing Hey Violet, who's just about to have a breakout. There's Jay Mike who signed to Dr. Luke. There's Jason Evigan, who we have an interview with in a couple weeks. There's Kara DiGuardi, who is one of the hosts of American Idol. There's Mitch Allen, who's a co-writer of all of theirs.

There's Jake Livingston, who is an A&R and used to work with Sean. There's Greg Wattonberg, an A&R guy. There's Katie Williver, an A&R girl at Warner Chapel. There is Julia Michaels, who's a prodigy who we've discussed in many episodes, and has just released her first single issues, which is, I believe, number one on today's hits for Spotify. And, of course, we reference Max Martin and Dr. Luke and Benny Blanco, Stargate, which we referenced in a lot of episodes because they're sort of part of the super

producer class. If you don't know who they are by now, you'll get to know them throughout all of these episodes because everyone's sort of chasing their tales. Benny Blanco, of course, we interview in the first episode, so if you're interested in that one, please go back and check that one out. And again, here's one last note. A lot of people have been asking if they can hear the songs from the writers that were interviewing. Well, you can. We have a Spotify playlist if you look up And The Writer Is. And if you go to our website, and the writer is.com, you'll see that list there. So you can follow along with the interview and play whatever songs we're talking about and you can listen to it afterwards. It'll still be up.

So there you go. Here is another episode of And The Writer Is. Welcome to And The Writer Is. I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's guest is one of the most diverse songwriters in the game. His lyrical wit is evident whether he's writing clubbangers or country ballads. I don't know another writer who's as humble considering his mass success. From Los Angeles, California, this guy is not just a songwriter, but a song crafter. And the writer is, who I want to be when I grow up, Sean Douglas. Yeah, that's a nice intro. That's what I do. I just butter you up. Yeah. And then just like all the dirt just comes flowing out. That's right. That's right. That's what I do.

Well, why don't you put the mic closer to your face? Okay. All right. So I sound more manly. There you go. Because no one's manlier. No. Then a couple guys around six feet.

A couple guys in skinny jeans. A couple guys in skinny jeans. Talk about feelings every single day. All day. I had somebody once coming to session and there were, um, uh, some girl was wearing something and someone in the session said, uh, like, oh, that dress is like, is like, fuchsia and some guy said that and she goes, I didn't know guys know fuchsia

and it's like you're walking into a room of guys who are talking about crying regularly. Yeah, literally who are professionally sensitive. Yeah, right. Anyway, welcome. Thank you. So, you know, one of the things I like to do is go back and try to figure out when I met somebody.

And this is crazy. I got an email from Jake Livingston on October 27th, 2010. Okay. That sounds about right. He says, how are you? Do you want to write with my guy, Sean Douglas, sometime? Sean has cuts with Katie Groves and Heiswell. And who?

Heiswell. H-E-I-S-W-E? Universal Motown. First of all, that's great because that's Jake, like, hustling and being like, well, I sent this to their A-N-R and he liked it, so I'm just going to call that a cut. I'm just going to like, like, because I had no cut. Katie Gross, that was it. Right. You had worked with Tamar, who was on a school.

I remember that. And then, you know, other writers like Jay Mike, Wattonberg, Beneta, Tiesto, and Moore. Yeah. I like that and more. And more. Then those were like tracks by those guys that, like, somebody had let me write over. It was funny because my response to him is, does he have tracks he can send before we book anything? Reasonable?

You know, like, I didn't know. And not, you know, I didn't know. who you were, not that I knew who I was at that point. Like, I was still in the band. Sure. You know, he knew my band. Right. You were still in the band?

I think so. At 2010? But you were already doing. I think I was like, I was finishing, oh, maybe that was like the very end. I think I played one more show probably around that. But you had cuts and stuff because I knew, I knew who you were. I knew that you were like this, that you were a guy, a man about town. I was a guy.

Yeah. I was a guy at a time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, then you sing a demo of mine. Oh, right.

3,000 miles. That you did with John Levine. Yeah. That was a really good song. Yeah, it became an emblem three flop. Yes, I remember. It was going to be a one direction. No, it was going to be.

Yeah, we went to the UK and recorded them on it. But I just remember him saying, you know, my friend Sean Douglas, you know, saying on this. I was like, oh, cool. I don't know why I didn't cut it, but I'm glad you did. Yeah, sure. But, like, we had some weird, like, collaboration before we even knew each. some remote collaboration. But I kind of love that.

That means that we've kind of known at least of each other for almost six years or something, five and a half years. Yeah, well, I remember when Jake, it was when I cut that and before, I mean, I knew you as like this guy who was like, I just felt like

you represented sort of like, actually I said this to someone. I was like, Ross Golden is like, that's the guy that I'm like, that I, I want to like do what he does in that like Really? I'm not a... I was like, he's out there.

He's like getting cuts. He's a songwriter. I knew enough to know that you were like a somehow like a top to bottom songwriter and that you weren't like some guy vibing over tracks. Nice. But you weren't a producer or a track guy. Right. And I was like, that seems like a prototype of like a basic role that I could be.

I was trying to write that about you. I was like trying to figure out how do you describe somebody who's like, well, you're not a producer. and a lot of guys that are writers are producers too. And it's like, you're not a topliner because you play instruments. Right. And you can actually write 100% song if you wanted to. Right.

Like, I try not to get precious about it when people like certain people get like thorny ones. They're like, I don't appreciate the term topliner. You know, like I don't like doesn't bother me. But I do think of myself as like, I'm just a songwriter. Like people used to be, you know, troubadora songwriters who would sit down and write a song. Absolutely. But then someone can add lasers and. you know

808s too well I was trying to find I was trying to find some burn down the mission records oh yeah I've hidden them far away

well you still have a my space deep in a bunker oh I do yeah wow wow so be careful

but anyway no I was looking I was trying to look it up and I was trying to figure out you know what that sounded like but I couldn't really get anything to play

so what is what is you know you were in a band that was obviously something that you cared about yeah how long were you in

that um well i it kind of was like that was the last incarnation at the last and most semi-professional incarnation of like a band that i had kind of been in with certain core members for since the beginning of college so i like oh so it's a washoe band yeah you went to wash you in st louis i went to washington university in st louis um a lovely wonderful place um filled with lovely nice people um but i went so i'd been in this band in high school uh um that was that was was called pseudo-band. It was great, just like crappy. It was called pseudo-band, not pseudo.

It was called pseudo-band. That's clever. I guess, yeah. It was probably accurate, too. Yes, very accurate, yeah, more than we knew. And, yeah, it was like just a garage band, whatever. But then the bass player from that was a good buddy of mine. We ended up going to watch you together, and we were like,

and by the end of high school, I'd become, like, obsessed with the sort of band scene, like the sort of indie pop thing that was happening in L. LA. Right. And I was like, dude, we're going to go to college. We're going to start this band. It's going to be a, so basically, like, I had like a mission at the beginning that, like, I'm going to get this liberal arts education and have a nice collegial, collegiate experience

that is hopefully also collegial and then do the band thing. And then by the end of that, like, see what was happening. So I had this band called Side Hatch. We added like these two guys and then eventually changed to this thing called The Hatch later. That was like the same thing, but like switched out one guy. And then switched out a couple guys after college and went to New York and like was this thing called Burnedown the Mission. So Hatch became Burnedown the Mission? Yeah.

So you were never going to stay in St. Louis? Wait, it was like a discussion right after, because we liked St. Louis a lot. And like it was kind of a cool market because it's big enough that it like gets big bands coming through. Like they have to come through on tour. And we were just sort of like, especially mostly being from L.A., we were just like, we were just like, like this is like a small enough pond that maybe we could like focus our efforts here and like be the band like in town right which is you know and at that point there are uh you probably graduate like 05 or something right yeah so then around then you actually had there's still

a place for regional bands to blow up because it's not as homogenized as it is now right there is actually like a place for bands in 2005 yeah to break out of a st louis It's much harder to do that now. Like, as I was saying that just now, I realized how, like, kind of antiquated that idea is, like, that we would, like, own this, like, scene. Right. Like, that even is, like, not even relevant to how a band does anything now, I don't think, for the most part. Right. But anyway, we didn't do that, and we, like, went to, we kind of came home and regrouped in L.A.

And then went to New York a little bit after that and did kind of a stint there for four years. How long did you live in New York? Four years. Whoa. Yeah. I didn't know that. We went to, we, like, got this, like, crazy loft in

Bushwick, Brooklyn, and it was the whole band. Yeah, the whole band. So you guys are living your 20s in New York. Yeah. That's the best. And Bushwick at the time, like now it's, I mean, the writing was on the wall about it kind of how the gentrification was coming just because you look around and there enough like skinny, like malnourished

white guys that you're like, I see what's happening here. But it was still early so we could still like get a loft for really cheap. And you could build them out and it was just this raw square space and like we built these crazy cubby holes in the corner right to maximize room for like rehearsing and uh like uh recording you know and like your neighbors just despise you or yeah yeah yeah but it was like enough of a like wild west sort of scene out there that that there was only so much they could do um so we built these these sort of four like it looked like if

you looked at it head on it was like Hollywood squares there's like two guys on top right and two guys on bottom, open face, just like curtains in the front. Rickety is how Do you guys communicate with like cans and a string between you? We communicated with whispers because you could hear everything, you know? The women in our lives did not appreciate it.

That's crazy. So did you guys have a record deal? No. So then we made... Were you just playing like whatever New York clubs, like CBGBs at the time and just doing the circuit? Just doing all that and then occasional like little like little runs that

we would kind of justify and like, you know, maybe break even on and like, yeah. You'd come to L.A. and you'd, because some A&R guy who works for an A&R guy was like, yo, you should come and play. Well, eventually, yeah, so eventually, yeah, we would come to L.A. and we would do, like, shows randomly to feel like we were important. But, you know, at a certain point, I was like, no, I have these batch of songs that, like, I think sound for the first time, like, they could be together. Like, so we recorded them as a record.

and the idea was make this record that is finished and produced and ready to go and then just shop it as like, hey, record label is like, we're good, we're ready. We got the album for you. All you got to do is pick us up and we'll hit the ground right. Every band's jam. Right, of course. Sure. So we send it out to like everyone that we know in the music industry once we work on this thing for a while.

And it was just like crickets, like nothing came back. I don't know. Do you listen to it? Have you listened to Burn Down the Mission since you've been a successful commercial sign? I haven't listened to it recently, but yeah, every now and again, like a track will come on, shuffle. Yeah. How do you, because I have so many emotions attached to previous projects that tie up, you know, a lot, just all kinds of things. And when I listen to it, it puts me in a place usually of mass anxiety and frustration.

And I still feel like I'm trying to get that record deal. Right. Yeah. I still feel like that now. I even had record deals and I was trying to get noticed or somebody to like, you know. Yeah, I have a lot of anxiety about it. Like, yeah, just the way my voice sounded on it and like just, ugh. Do you still want to do?

There's some good stuff in there and I don't want to write it, write all of it off. We worked hard on it, but yeah. Did you ever get those songs cut? Have you ever tried to get them cut by other people? Not really. There was one that was kind of going to get cut and then, I don't know, that kind of didn't happen. But yeah, never really went that way. Yeah, we always tried to write songs that no one else could cut.

That's what made us, in theory, an artist. Right. You know, that no one else could do it. Right. But that put a giant stamp on the catalog of like, no one will cut your songs. You know? Beware. Yeah, right.

No, totally. Anyway, we got this email back from a guy, like, four weeks after kind of disseminating this album. And it was this dude and it was like, hey, it was Jake Livingston. And he was like, oh wow. And he was like, hey, I found your record. Here's what I've sent it to already. Here are my responses. So-and-so likes it.

So-and-so loves it. So-and-so doesn't care. And it was just like very kind of together and amped up. So he became, was he the manager of the band? And he was like, can I keep going? Yeah. And we were like, yeah, keep going. So he kept going.

And he drummed up this whole interest. And we ended up kind of showcase, you know, one label becomes a. interested and then all of a sudden like everyone wants to just it's the fomo thing and and so we showcase for everybody and then it kind of starts slowing down at a certain point where it was like eh this isn't really gonna pan out or whatever deal might come out of it isn't gonna be like a really good one right yeah but did you know that because i mean that was one of the things that we've mentioned because a lot of people that we've talked to have been in bands that you know you get this record deal and you split it five ways yeah and it's a hundred thousand dollars yeah and minus your man

manager's fee and everything else you walk away with groceries for a third of a year. Totally. But did you know that that's the deal? Or at that point are you thinking, you know, if you get a record deal, that's the stepping stone to serious money? Honestly, we were wise enough to, and had been around, heard enough stories to know that, like, yeah, like a lot of record deals are really crappy, terms aren't great. And especially, you know, for new bands and the money goes like that.

But I think we would have, I probably would have taken. I'm kind of putting like a more professional sounding slant on it than it really was. Like I probably would have taken whatever. Just because it would have more because we had been, I felt like we were at the point of no return as far as music. And I was like, I've spent too much time doing this to do anything else. Sure. And go back and start some other career path, which may or may not have been true.

And were some of these songs at that point on the album, are you carrying songs from pseudo-bam through hats through, like all these were new songs, the new material? Yeah. So you're growing as a writer in this. process. Sure. Yeah. But still had not, so anyway, as this started to wind down, Jake, I was like, or I said, like, will you just like keep me busy and put me in some writing sessions? And then I started the kind of, that's when I also moved back to LA, or was around the time that I was moving back to LA and put me through the sort of blind date, crazy. Is that when you met? Because he manages Mitch Allen. I don't know if he always did. Is that, is that how you met them for heart attack? for Demi?

No. That was after like it took like it took definitely a year more than a year because I did a year of writing I didn't meet those guys to later he wasn't managing Mitch at the point at that point

like two years after that and Katie Wallover put me in in that session. Katie's great. She was awesome but that was like yeah I had already had like I had the Katie Grove stuff

that came out and kind of came and went I mean, did you have a single? Yeah, I had a single. So it was like I had one real cut and it was a single. Man, that's amazing. Yeah. Took me a lot of cuts to get to single. Well, so that was the other thing that I used to think about you

because I thought about you later as I started getting things. Like I would get not a lot of cuts as far as volume. I would get very few. Yeah. But my first like three cuts were all singles. Yeah. Which was a weird thing. And you were getting tons of cuts, but I was always like,

I was like, Ross doesn't seem to have that many singles, but he's killing it, like, is getting cuts. And clearly a question of when the tipping point would come, and it would, you know. Julia, I think, had experience a similar thing. Yeah, I think it's rare. I mean, to get, most artists write their own, most artists write their own material,

or at least think they can. So they write as many as songs as they can. And for you to get the single, that means that it's a song that they can't write on their own. Otherwise, they're writing it. So to get album cuts is like is pretty rare, especially now because there aren't a lot of them. So it makes sense for if you're getting outside songs for them to be focused tracks. Otherwise, they're just releasing their own material.

Right. Otherwise, what's the point? Yeah. Yeah. So I think it makes sense why some people are able to get singles right off the back because, you know, whatever that artist is, maybe that artist just writes all their own material but can't write a single, you know. I guess. I mean, yeah, I think also there's just so much serendipity involved and timing. I mean, that was like heart attack. The way heart attack came about was so crazy that, or it seemed crazy to me,

that when it finally happened and materialized and became a hit, it almost scared me more than it relieved me because I was like, this has to happen. This is the crazy rigmarole that everyone needs to go through for something to get one hit, and we're supposed to have like a string of these. Yeah. And turns out... It's so shocking, right?

It's crazy. For the people who have seven hits, they've released 14 singles that year. Yeah. So the ratio, if you're... If 5% of your songs are getting cut, you know, they've had 14 singles and probably double that or triple that for cuts. You know? I mean, not really, but... No, totally.

If you're... For you to be the biggest songwriter in a year, you need four or five singles or something like that, that react. That react. You're going to have a bunch on top of that that really don't. They don't. Yeah. It's crazy. Yeah.

How not up to you it is. I mean, the realization of a guy in a band who realizes, oh, yeah, you can have singles. You know, you write with Katie. Yeah. And it becomes a single, and you have to be kind of shocked. Because here you are, you know, you've been in a band for four years at this point in New York trying to get a record deal. and then you write it one of your first your first cut is a single and it had to just did it just immediately put the kibosh on on the banding yeah i think i was already by the time that really

came around i was like i think i was out already uh of the band thing because even just the like the co-write thing kind of already put me in that mind's space and there was uh uh yeah so i was already kind of once i started doing that like the first few sessions like that and i was like oh we write this for a girl or we could write this like anybody yeah i could write for for you know uh i think i wrote over one of these j mike tracks early and it was like the super r and b thing that i could never do and i was like song worth nothing to happen with the song but i was like oh my god this is awesome i was like this is me because that was always one of the big problems for the band thing was like i could never pick a thing like we had a country song on the record right we had you know it's like

it's hard to be an artist um you have to choose really hard you know you have to choose to be an artist You have to do a series of paintings and let it be that. Or you're filming one movie and each song's a scene or whatever it is. When you're an artist, you want to be a writer when you're an artist. Yes. You know, and those are not the same thing. Not necessarily. Yeah.

Yeah. and becomes a top five song, right? I don't know when that was. Yeah, Hard Attack probably came out 2012. Yeah, and that was like three radio, which is like to me, I mean, at the time it was just insane. I mean, still is. I don't know why it sounded so jaded there.

No, no, but I mean, it is. And that's what's so crazy about it, though. I mean, that song still gets played. Yeah. You know, there are songs that went number one that don't get played as much as that song gets played now. It has longevity. Yeah.

And I wonder, is that, you know, is that because of how unusual that arrangement is? That would be nice. If that were the case, I hope so. I mean, I really am actually proud of that song because I really like A. it was fun to write it with those guys with Jason and Mitch and Nikki Williams. But, yeah, it was her single first. Well, they passed on it. Yeah.

So the way. it happened was we wrote together so I had a session with Mitch Allen right this is how it was booked to me and I was like Mitch Allen like because I knew that name and and yeah SS 71 71 and he had and he was having a bunch of cuts

and had hits you know he had the bowling for soup hit and and I was like he works with Kara you know and so we went in and then and then Jason was there with him and I didn't I was like at first I was very like put off like who's this guy they didn't tell me this guy I was going to be in the session.

Very suspect. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yes. Sorry. Like semi-obscure production team worse way. This is the most like inside baseball thing.

Yeah. But I love it. And it was supposed to be with, yeah, it was with Nikki Williams. But then they called and they were like, hey, Nikki is not feeling well. She's not going to make it. But write something for her. Here's the general. Right.

And then we... And none of you guys... I mean, Mitch Allen had had the Bowling for Soup song, but for the most part, as outside songs go, you know, none of you guys really had anything... No, like huge, huge things. Nothing like that. I guess 1985 was a really big song.

Yeah, yeah, that's a big song. Yeah. So Mitch... Yeah, anyway, so... Mitch aside, but you and Jason... Had had nothing. Had had nothing. Nothing.

So then, yeah, Jason had this start of a melody, and we started an idea. And then all of a sudden they call and they go, okay, she's coming. And we're like, what? And they're like, yeah, she's walking up. So all of a sudden, Nikki Williams walks in, and she's like, sunglasses on. Hot mess.

Hot mess. Yeah. And she's great. She would fully, like, she would, she's a self-described hot mess, I think. Yeah. And, but she comes in and she's like, oh, I'm so fucking hung over and just goes and, like, collapses in the corner. And it's just, like, launches into this thing about, I can't even remember what the exact story was. the guy she was with the night before and one guy that she's like kind of like toying with

and not really not really uh into and another guy that she uh is into but keeps fucking it up with because because she's so into him and then obviously we write the song like that um anyway ended up not being her single they passed on it uh because her team are a bunch of criminal lunatics uh and uh wow keep that in yeah yeah um and they passed on it then Pierre Tuscano cut it a year later and I was like oh thank God she was great voice

she sounded amazing on it and then they dropped her and then I was like okay it's done I forgot about it and then somebody else I think was going to cut it along the way and then I just got a call from Jason was like dude Demi is recording it with us right now

and she wants to change this one line in the verse Yeah. And I was like, yeah, I had no idea she was even cutting it. Anyway, it was great and it came out. But it's just like such a windy path to anything coming on. There was like a span of a year and a half between when we wrote it. Do you think that that's, is that common for your records to be cut by multiple artists? There have been a couple.

Yeah, recently there's more stuff like that, I think. Yeah. It sort of shows the value of a good song too. I mean that if you write a song that's good enough, there are a line of artists that would kill for it. Yeah, yeah. And so I always get a little bit, uh, yeah, the ones that really react,

you tend to get people, multiple parties, interested. Right, right. And it's a weird balance of trying to find, you know, is this best for the song or is it best for the artist? And, you know, you want an artist to cut it who's really passionate about it. You know, you don't want an artist who just because, they have a following doesn't mean it's going to be a big song you know right yeah no totally and it's quite like who's the biggest hottest artist but does that song necessarily even like

makes sense for them right it's weird when you have that control but that's sort of the value of what you yeah yeah i'm always scared of those decisions so you went from being you know heart attack for a guy in a band kind of makes sense it's kind of a rock record totally in all in so many ways that's a rock record. Totally. Yeah. And she was still, I mean, still to me, she kind of is that. She is a very kind of rocky girl. Oh, yeah, yeah. She's definitely

fulfilling that lane. Yeah. But you as a writer go from that to a string of songs that are not that. Like you went and did Talk Dirty Wiggle, Hey Mama, these songs that are kind of urban in so many

ways and their club records and their antithetical to everything a guy on piano is supposed to be doing. How do you... Dude from like Brentwood private school. It doesn't make any sense.

I mean, I think I'm a diverse writer. I don't have that ability to write really organic club records. And somehow when you do it you're doing, it feels so organic. How are you doing that? You're not at a club. I can't

I cannot see you. I cannot see you. in front of... I've been there for research with pad and paper. Nobody's giving you bottle service. There's nobody like walking to Sean Douglas with streamers or whatever

sparkless. I got a whole alter ego. Yeah, I'm sure you and Rachel are waiting in line at at whatever, a voyeur, I don't know. We don't even know with the club. I was just about to reference some club

that probably is not as in existence. Oh, for sure that place is not in existence. But how do you do that? How are you channeling this weird, like, 25 year old You know Urban voice I guess because

I've always been like Kind of an R&B Leaning fan Hip-hop R&B stuff and I've just A genuine fan of it And like R. Kelly is like One of my

Favorite artist ever And Yeah And you know I love that That music so I try and do it like I don't ever want to I mean first of all

There's like like what you said Kind of urban sounding like That's a good way to describe it because like I'm not going in there doing like really, you know, I'm not doing like future records. Right. You didn't do post-Malone. Right. Yeah, much to my chagrin. Yeah, right.

But it's that kind of playful middle ground where you can sort of mind some of that. It's the rhythmic phrasing and the like, and the sort of like tongue-in-cheek, like, you know, provocative sort of wordplay stuff. That's the part of it that I can draw on. better. Not necessarily like the ultra-authentic street shit is not me. I'm not doing that. But yeah, my favorite thing is like

a guy who can do a song that's funny and not a joke. Yeah, yeah. That's always... We were saying that the difference between clever and funny is huge. Yeah. Like Randy Newman is like one of my favorite.

Ran Newman and like R. Kelly. Like those guys... Yeah. Although R. Kelly, certain songs, like, I heard a couple of the new record that, like, you're like, that's close to a joke. But, I mean, they're not bad, but they're, like, just silly, way silly. Yeah. Whereas other stuff is just funny but sick. You know, funny, but, like, oh, that's still awesome, you know.

Where does that come from? Is that, you know, where did you learn to listen to? I'm assuming that you can throw in the Elvis Costello's and you can throw in the Tom Waitses and anybody who's, you know, a witty lyricist was actually. something that you've always grabbed onto? Or was that something that you were sort of trained? Did somebody push that kind of material on you? Because that takes effort.

You mean the lyrical? Yeah, to listen to lyrics takes a certain effort. Were you listening to Biggie, you know, and Tupac or were you listening to... I was listening to... I mean, everyone says I listen to everything, but I kind of do. Yeah? And did. And yeah, I was really into

I was into like all the like, but like mainstream hip hop, like, you know, Biggie and Tubac and stuff. And then like Beatles lyrics and like, I'm trying to think of what the really early like, lyrically kind of interesting stuff was that I was, that I was into. But it was always kind of the good stuff. I loved like, I loved the band and kind of a whole,

I mean, that's like a more than concept records. They're like, that's like a concept band. Sure. You know, which I always thought was cool. Yeah. And like Tumbleweed connection. Not the pseudo band, but the actual band. Yeah.

Tumbleweed connection by Elton John is like one of my favorite records of all time, which is just this crazy thing with like this. I mean, obviously Bernie Topen wrote the lyrics. But, you know, a Englishman, gay Englishman, piano player doing a concept record about like the American West. Yeah, right, exactly. It is a crazy lyrical endeavor. Is that where Burndon the Mission comes from from Elton John?

Yeah, there's that song, Burned on the Mission, which is a great song. Yeah. And it sounds like an emo band when you say it later. Like anything that sounds like a sentence or a fragment of the sentence. You know, sounds super emo. So you go from, well, Talk Dirty becomes a massive hit. I mean, of all the songs that you've had, that's an international smash. Yes.

So does that, how does that change your life? in a way that before that heart attacks are really big song big artists you've had cuts with big artists but then talk dirty comes on and changes everything for sure I mean heart attack changed was a really significant change in that you didn't have to like

you didn't have to beg to get in rooms with certain artists or writers like not like you could get in anywhere but you could get in a lot of places that you couldn't before and like A&Rs were taking note and it's just like it was a good momentum him to capitalize on. But so then I got in the room with Jason Derulo like one or two times. And then I had another one.

I know. I think I'd only been in once and it kind of went pretty well. He was clearly like crazy talented. But had been working for a long time. At the time, you know, he'd been kind of doing songs. And even like to other writers, like I'd be like, yeah, I'm doing Jason Darula. And I was really exciting. People were kind of like, yeah, yeah, he's been, they always say they're going to do something.

They probably never put something out. Right. And then just one day I was going in and I asked Evigan to join because he was around and he's great and fun. And he came in and yeah, they played the Talk Dirty Beat and like I think I had heard that we had heard the Talk Dirty Beat before and it seemed like cool but so crazy that we didn't really know what to do with it or we like tried some start of an idea and kind of aborted. Yeah. And then we just like played it a few times. We kept laughing. Yeah.

kept laughing when it came on because it was so absurd. Right. And anyway, we're in the house of Ricky Reed, you know, who produced the track so wonderfully. And anyway, yeah, then we just started. We're just like, it's fun. Like, let's just do it. So we just messed around and wrote it.

And it was really, that was the opposite of heart attack, super fast, you know. Right. Like by the end of the session, you know how it is at APG, I love it over there. But guys come in at will, you know, they come in whenever they want to come in. people have written on that track at that point. Yeah, yeah. No, I'm saying like A&R is like, we'll come in and check in on what you're doing.

There's no like, excuse us, we're, you know, being artists. Yeah, yeah. But by the end of the session, like, four guys, like on the A&R staff had come by like we heard about what you guys are doing. Sure. And I was like, oh, okay, this is what it feels like to have something that is really, really going. Yeah.

That's pretty cool. So everyone there was pretty, they knew that there was something special. Yeah. But even then when it, you know, they went with, marry me second and talk dirty is like an international song and that's the reason why i went here was that because it was growing so big internationally right they weren't going to go with it here no and it ends up being like this smash because the rest of the world wanted which i guess in theory is what's going to happen would get ugly right well i mean international international

really wanted it you know yeah so that's that's what drove the u.s. to let's yours too right yeah yeah yeah uh yeah that would be wonderful if that if that that happened yeah um you know you you really never know um but um yeah so so talk to so whereas the heart attack opened certain doors heart attack i mean talk dirty was like blew everything everything yeah and just made it i mean it wasn't like you didn't have the keys to the kingdom but it just made it easy like hey i'd love to do this was so and so like that could be arranged i said did you know that Spin Magazine put levels at number 11 for pop songs. Somebody told me that the other day.

That's crazy. That song is one of those songs where, you know, the song stands on its own. Yeah. Previous to any artist. Yeah. And it could have gone to a number of people because it was so strong. I'm sure there were options. Yeah, there were options for that one, yeah.

What happened to that versus, because that, if I heard that as in, as in our ear, I'd be like, yeah, that's a hit. Let's put whoever on it. Sure. You know, what's the difference? Because I'm sure there are songs that you've had that have been successful. They're like, I don't know if I would have thought this was going to be as successful as it turned out to be. And then you go to something like levels, which I'm assuming you are sort of surprised because I think anyone who knows that song in the process is sort of surprised that it didn't top out top five, you know, because it was so good.

good. Yeah, that was, that was weird. Do you know what, what the, why? Uh, you know, it's been discussed a lot. It's strange because it was so, no, I don't know why. The short answer is I don't know why. I think that, um, you could go out of, I mean, there was like research at a certain point, like the radio research, uh, a couple, how, uh, you know this game better, better than I do, but like the, a certain amount of weeks in, um, you know, where it didn't, they research a certain They do callouts, you know, and they call people at home, which still is amazing to me that that still happens. I'm not even saying it's a bad practice.

I just think it's crazy. It sounds like... It's so archaic. It sounds like it's like the 50s, yeah. Anyway. Yeah, like they're calling and there's like somebody in the apron opening the oven and pulling on a pie. Yeah, exactly.

The father answers, he's got a pocket protector. He's got a comb over. He's just like, hello. Yeah. You know? Douglas residence. Yeah. Yeah, pies are cooling on the other.

Yeah, right, right. Milkman has just laughed. Yeah, right. Yeah, so anyway, and I guess the research on this snippet of the song wasn't amazing. Like, whatever they were getting back was not amazing. But then it was, oh, they kind of used a strange snippet, which I don't know how you find a strange,

I think if you're researching a song, why wouldn't you just play the chorus? Right. But, um. So is the label then pissed at the people who do the research? Or is it the label who does the research? Or is it the radio stations? then the, I mean, I don't know.

Do you know how any of that works? Honestly, I know, like the way I just described it to you is about as much as I know about how that process works. So much of it is a mystery to me. So you have, you know, right now you have a bunch of songs on the chart. Are you looking, are you constantly obsessing over chart position? Do you check charts every day? There was a period when I was really excited recently where I, where I had three songs in three

different formats on the radio. And I was pumped about that because I was like, this is cool. This represents- Die happy man. Levels was on top 40 and zero with Chris Brown was on rhythmic. Right. And did fine at rhythmic.

It got like eight or something. You can see I'm like still like kind of like trying to justify and be like, yeah, it did pretty well. Okay. Like if you're okay about it. But like I was excited because I was like, that's where I want to be as a songwriter, a guy who has top 40 song, a rhythmic song, and a country song. It's like, that's cool to me.

If I can find a way to set myself apart from the masses of people trying to write pop songs, that'd be great. So, yeah, I checked a lot during that period. But, like, yeah, and I still check. I'm checking with DiHivey Man, which Joe London, who's in the room right now, wrote with me and Thomas Redd. Because that's doing really well. I wish I would check less, to be honest. I don't check obsessively. But, like, Hey Mama, which is a total surprise to me, the David Geddes song.

I didn't check at all because I was like traveling a ton over the summer. Right. And every time I'd come home, I'd hear it on the radio a little bit more. And I was like, oh, it was like this nice surprise. Yeah. And then it just kind of kept going, kept going. I mean, the licenses on that song made it impossible not to hear. Yeah.

I mean, the radio is one thing, but that song was in. I remember, I think I texted you. We went and saw some movie and there were three previews, and two of them, the theme of the previews were, hey, mama, I was surprised there wasn't any exclusivity. That's almost just like, it was like, and the credits, and for previews. I mean, it was like the movie's hinging on an identity and two of the three are using the exact same song. And it sounded like it was a joke.

Like, this is a parody. Right. You know, it's crazy. I mean, and I'm very bad at gauging what's like a very sinkable song. I would have thought, I mean, talk to already got a lot of stuff, but like not nearly as much as I would have thought. And then, hey, Mama, just got a ton. I don't know. I'm sorry.

You know, this is your interview now mine. But there's a song that I have that's the Andy Grammar song, Good to Be Al. Which I love. Is licensed 10 times more than the Selena Gomez. Sure. Yeah. You know. See, that kind of makes.

Not because the song's better or worse. And maybe there's, but it's just interesting that here's a song that's pushing, trying to get into the top 40 a radio. Yeah. And, you know, here's a song that's at the top of top 40. And the one that's at the top, it's a pop record. So it has to, you know, maybe it'll be a party scene or something like that in a movie. But nobody's, nobody's choosing that.

And it's also not that kind of lyric. But sort of a surprise. Well, Hey Mama, it ended up being the top of the charts. But the Andy Grammar one, yeah, that ended up doing that. But the, the Anger one actually makes sense to me because it's like, the lyric is, a positive or a same old love is, I mean, that kind of negative. Yeah, negative, yeah. And it's like, it's good to be live right about now.

That could sell a car, that could sell a, that could sell coffee, that could sell a lot of things. And that's really what it's all about. Just advancing corporate America's agenda as far as possible. And, you know, whatever pennies they throw us in the process, we'll just laugh it up. Do you finish songs with artists where you say, do you ever catch yourself saying this will be really singable? Yeah. but I yeah unfortunately I think

I feel like I say that when I'm not sure that the song is like a hit right super syncable right like always sounds like with that intonation well because you want to say it on the record because you know it's not a single yeah yeah yeah right man they could this is gonna be in every

this is going to be in every wedding yeah totally you would sell a shitload of Kia's with this yeah totally it's real um okay so then I know I want to go to Die Happy Man, but before that, you had a single with Madonna. I did.

I mean, that's cool, huh? That's kind of an epic, like, thing to put on your Wikipedia. Ridiculous. Ridiculous. Did you meet? We wrote it with her. Yeah, she's a really good writer. I mean, that's, and that's a perfect example of, like, they were collecting sort of

inspiration for her record, and she was, they were like, what songs are you into right now? We're going to put you in the room with those writers. She was like, that Talk to Dirty record is cool, or whatever she said. So then you and Jason end up inevitably being intertwined because you guys have had multiple hits together. So then people then automatically just say, oh, let's get Sean and Jason together. Yes. Which is convenient because you guys are actually friends. And we have a great vibe and he's the sweetest man on the planet and crazy talented.

Right. And it works out great. It would be terrible. And I had a couple of hits with something. When he said works out great, I had an image of him like, like pumping iron like you're like dude he's really good

sweet man very talented works out great you're like what is that of anything to do it? Great spotter he can lift 150 pounds

like I don't know if that's a lot right I have no gauge I have no gauge two song writers like you don't know what a lot to bench is

right bench is like 600 pounds yeah could be any that was funny yeah so that's true and that's been wonderful

and anyway so Madonna said that they put us us in with Evan Bogart who's also the best and we get there and I've never been more nervous for a session ever and it's not even like I was a huge Madonna fan

I mean I'm a fan of a very respectful fan of her everything she's done and some songs I think are incredible. Sure. But I've never been more like shook up. And I go in and they're like, okay, Madonna's going to be here in three hours. Here's how this works. You guys start some ideas.

Right. And then she's going to come in and check them out. She was like, start multiple ideas because she's really cutthroat and really just says, no. And that's it and move on to the next one. And then she goes, we go, okay, should we demo it or what? And then she goes, well, I said, have like, have the idea ready to go for like a demo

playback like a drum track light drum track and vocal whatever also be sometimes someday she wants to hear it on guitar so be ready to play on guitar and then someday she wants to hear it on piano

so be ready to do that right so she comes in and like we play this song to her like I wanted to hear it on drums yeah yeah she was like

where's the bassoon? Bring it out. And yeah, we just like, three, like, well, so she's great. The thing that's intimidating about her is not her so much as it is, like, the team and the entourage. Like, right, you get a countdown before she comes in. And they say, somebody sweeps through the room, or they say, we'll give you a countdown, so she won't just, like, sneak up behind you. And they're, like, all of a great image. Yeah, so we work for a little while.

Yeah. and all of a sudden people sweep through the room team members that you didn't even know existed and they go M in 10 M and 10 and then like the lights are dimmed to like the perfect vibe dimness

the eucalyptus scented humidifiers start wafting from corners of the room truly the greatest smelling candles on planet Earth are lit like everywhere Ith rather just amazing and all of a sudden you're like in this like

vibe land and then she comes through with like some handlers and she's one of them she says hi you can call me M what's up and yeah she's great and we wrote this song

and sang it to her like in unison I mean we sang the chorus or whatever we had at that point sang into her in unison she was like that's good and then we wrote the rest of the song with her and she's a great writer has a very particular kind of point of view

and it was really fun crazy not like a commercial success but a good like no but there's a level of like how successful does a song have to be to feel like it was a success? Yeah. You know, like Wiggle is a success.

Sure. It didn't go number one. It did not. But it's still a success. Yeah. And in a lot of ways, levels is a success. If you can get any song out at all, your iTunes is filled with songs that are not ever going to come out.

Not you in particular, all songwriters. No. So to have something actually come out, that's a success. And then to have a Madonna single, that's successful. Ridiculous. Yeah, no, things that I never would have thought possible. Sure. Okay, so then your biggest song is probably happening right now.

Do you think that's true? I do. That'd be fucking cool. I think this is, you know, the last time a song, a country record, this is Thomas Red, die happy man. You know, the last time I saw a song chart like this on iTunes for this long, it was number one at Billboard for 17 weeks. Which song were talking about?

Girl Crush. It was number one at Billboard for 17 weeks Because of the influence it was having on On the rest of the industry Right And I know that that had some political ramifications that song That die happy man doesn't have No that has a girl crush has a good like paradigm shifting sort of

Yeah Thing to it which is great But die happy man has the crossover ability That may hopefully it'll have But I think as far as You know Um Talk dirty is a big record.

There are a lot of people on it. There's a big sample. It's a different thing than Die Happy Man, which has three writers. Thomas Wrette, you and some other guy. Yeah, some other Schmo. I'm just kidding. Joe London. Joe London.

To my right. But, you know, you, you, that song has the ability to be, you know, I don't know how, seeing the reaction is having.

I don't know how this isn't that kind of song that gets you every country award or nominated. Oh, wow, that's very... Like, I think you'll... Yeah, knock on wood, but, you know, you don't see songs reacting, you know, crews for Florida Georgia Line reacted like that on iTunes and Girl Crush reacted like that.

And this did. I mean, I can't think of, you know, even automatic in some of these really big records in country didn't, don't really react like that on a, on a full commercial scale. What does it feel like in the middle of this? Are you able to enjoy that kind of success, or does it give you anxiety wondering where it's going to go?

Or is it totally irrelevant in your daily life? Yeah, I have a few thoughts on it. First of all, that's cool to hear that from you because I think that you get the sort of overall landscape better than pretty much anyone because you have a foot, obviously, you have country number ones and a foot in that world

and also do, you know, you have something that's probably going to be a, possibly going to be a number one soon and pop. And you also know the business of those two sides better, I think better than I do. So that's cool to hear. I mean, I don't know. I was just thrilled to have, okay,

when Joe and I were with Thomas on the bus writing the song, it was the first day and they started like 10 the morning or just like bleary-eyed roll it out of the bunk. but one of the conversations we had right off the bat was like it's great writing i mean personally i had been feeling like it's talked to i look super proud of talk dirty as like as like as silly as it sounds and and and wiggle and hey mom and like that's great um and all those songs are wonderful but at a

certain point they're not emotional in a way definitely and and and when you're and when you're you know dad is emailing your your your aunts and uncles every day uh about songs that are going on the charts, at a certain point, you want one to be like, feel like, not that those, it feel like it might last for a little bit and feel like it might have an emotional, somebody said, some, somebody said at a certain point, like, well, what are your goals?

Like, what do you want to do in the next, you know, a couple of years? And it was so weird to not have an answer for the question, or take a second to have an answer for the question because it was like, well, like, you're just chasing, all you are thinking about is chasing hits a lot, or at least I am. And I feel kind of mercenary and cold saying that, but it does, sure.

That's the kind of business you're in, especially when you're not getting production fees and things like that. Yeah. You've got to get hit. But at a certain point, when does that, like, cease to be satisfying? And I thought, well, why are you doing this? And then, like, you want something to last. We're all into the idea. A copyright versus the song.

A copyright, an Evergreen or whatever. I'm not saying this is that, but it is something. So it feels like it's becoming that. It's certainly in that genre. You know, I mean, somebody said that they heard Compass on the radio this week. And I was surprised because I haven't heard it since it was on the charts. It's not really like a copyright.

It's a number one song in country, but it's not a copyright. And I don't know how this song isn't going to be, you know, some of those like Rascal Flat songs or some of those songs that continually get played five, ten years from now. It just feels like it's, leaning towards that. Right. Well,

we said, we want to write something that could be a wedding song. And not just like, not just like, I mean, nothing against these songs,

but not like a song, not marry me or not, uh, you know, uh, what, I think I want to marry you.

Right. So, yeah, we went out and say, and if it's not ever, evergreen of something, something that weaves itself into the fabric

of someone's actual emotional, real life. Right. That like, they might play at a wedding. Right. Uh, and it doesn't have to be everybody's wedding.

It doesn't have to, you know, become some Stevie song. But it could mean something to a handful of people. So we did it and it felt really good. And Thomas played it the next night at his show. Just demanded to, he was like, I'm doing it. We were really nervous about it.

Never seen that before. No. No way. When you ever have that. That never happens. And we were like, I was like, and all of my anxiety about like the whole reason I stopped performing and like got into writing was so I could like be in here

craft something until it's finished and can't be fucked with. Sure. Can't go, you know, once it's master, you know, nothing's going out of tune or getting like, you know. And I was just like, oh, God, are you sure? And he went up and played it for like 6,000 people, 7,000 people. And he even, like, stumbled on certain parts. And I freaked out, but it didn't matter because, like, they didn't know the song.

And they were caught up in the moment. Yeah. So anyway, the fact that it's doing well is, like, is awesome. And it's so, it's nice and gratifying. It makes me want to write more stuff like that. seen them have you actually seen videos of it being played at weddings i'm sure you have no but i did like start checking uh twitter when it came out and it was like amazing how for a song that doesn't yeah mention marriage at all right how much people were saying like at tombs red like my wife and i

are getting married in in a month and this is our wedding song this is our first dance yeah and that was cool of course especially just like a guy like you who uh just got married a little over year ago yeah yeah for the listeners we got married on the same day Not to each other. But, yeah, I mean, it's cool. We're in California. Next time. No, I'll catch you on the second round.

Right, right. If things don't work out, it's Rachel and Jackie. Yeah. You're my girl. Was that the dynamic that was going to have? Yeah. I mean, do you, how do you stay, how do you stay humble with, right now you have at least two, three, one just entered top 50 at radio? So you have three songs in top 50.

I might be awful and you might have four. No, I don't know. So you have a bunch. How does it, how do you stay humble? I mean, or are you not? I think it's pretty easy. Well, I mean, there's certainly a large ego component

that I think is almost necessary for a part of it. So on the one hand, it's very easy to stay humble because there's so many people who do it so well, who do who and i'm just talking about the craft of songwriting uh or pop the craft of pop songwriting um so people so many people who do it so well and uh with such success that it's like you know i'm just like in awe of those people and i'm certainly and i'm not on that uh level um but you are i'm not i'm not

on that level yet yeah i'm in the game very much you know but that's that's what's so crazy about it and i don't think that um i think if you're the you know there's there's the there's the older generation, which I'll throw even like Benny in, who's still very accomplished but has been for 10 years, you know, even though he's young. Right. But, you know, you can say Luke and you can say Max and the Stargate and some of these, like, one-word things and you already know who you're talking about in the songwriting game. Right. But you have as many hits this year as the entire Luke camp. Do you know what I mean?

You have as many. I don't know if that's true. You have as many singles. Sure. And you have songs coming up. I mean, obviously there's, you know, sugar was big and they had, you know, they had the Rock City one or whatever it was. But the stuff that you're doing is as competitive and as strong.

And I'm just saying, like, you are at that level. Sure. But maybe that's sort of the, maybe that's what keeps you humble is that you don't really see that you're at that level. Yeah, I see that I'm at the level in that, like, I'm playing in that same, I'm playing that same game. And our songs are on the charts next. next to each other or at least I see them I see them as they as they rocket past me and wave

but yeah no totally I'm like I have a healthy sort of understanding of how far I've come in the past five years and then it's based on hard work and some talent but I also feel like I found I found this weird lane of musician where like

where like I can play but I don't play that well I can sing but I don't sing that well and I found this I found this like weird assortment of skill set and I'm not saying this like self-deprecatingly well I am a little bit but but I'm saying it actually I'm sort of proud to have found this sort of cross section of my of my talents that that works

that works yeah in a professional music sense yeah 100% yeah It's hard to do that. Yeah, I think it is. It took me a long time. Do you find yourself envious of other people's singles or cuts? Because I know that we're all competitive, but we're all friends. Right, exactly.

Yeah, totally. Right, we're all friends. And I think this is, and I don't, you know, I guess I don't have a climate of songwriting to compare it to previous to this one. But it does feel like there is a very kind of lovey vibe amongst this sort of current. I mean, for lack of a better word, sort of like... Generation. Yeah, generation, but I was going to say, like, upper middle class kind of group of songwriters, you know,

the three of us in the room, Ricky, you know, Jason, Julia, Lindy, Mitch, and Ian, all those guys, you know, and assorted networks. Like, there's a good, like, everyone celebrating everyone kind of vibe. Like, I'm looking up with the Start from Infinity plaque, you know, and all the songs that came out of that. There's a nice communal sort of things happen. Yeah, you root for them.

I mean, obviously you want your own success, but sure, I mean, you know, especially when you hear that there's, the competition with a lot of these artists are with your friends. It's just as inevitable. It's inevitable, yeah. There are times where it's, you want your song to be picked over the other guy.

And we've all submitted songs to the same project. So when you find out that one worked and yours didn't, you're thinking there, why wasn't I in that session? or like I should have a song like that. You're looking at your iTunes to see if you have that song. Oh, yeah, 100%. Of course you don't because that's not really how it works.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know? No, 100%. And it's just sort of the nature of how it is. But yeah, I think it's always going to be like that to some degree. Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things that you've done that, that there are so few people who have that is that the, and I have the same aspiration of,

having impactful songs in multiple genres allows you to have a career regardless of the success you're currently having. Yeah. You know, if you can have this base and you can have, you build this safety net and you build this social network that if you, if you're in a down period, there are multiple people that'll say, you wrote, talk dirty, die a happy man, you know, so you'll always have a space. I know we know writers who can still say, you know, a genie in a bottle and still get in a room because you have a copyright. You have a name that you can say, I wrote Halo forever in

the zeitgeist, even if you had a giant dry spell for five, ten years. You can still say, I wrote that and there's going to be someone who's going to say, come on in. Of course. You know, and that's something that you're achieving, which is pretty cool. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't know if I'm achieving that, but that's cool. And I think there is something to, like, it's cool to see that you're thinking that way as well. I think there's something to the diversity of songs that hopefully, as a writer, I think you're often trying to insulate yourself. I'm trying to, like, I might want to be doing this in 10 years like this. But I don't know what I'm going to want to do in 10 years. Right, of course. And I'd like to be able to do it for just because I really like to do it. Right. Dan Wilson, you know, or Jason and I were writing with Dan Wilson the other day. And Joe and I were writing with Dan Wilson the other day.

The greatest guy ever. Yeah. Doesn't need to, I would assume, write another song for the rest of his life. And does because he enjoys the craft of songwriting and is truly in love with it. And does it at his leisure. Sure. I mean, he seems like he still works hard at it, but does it, he could blow off a week and do whatever he wanted to do. Right.

So what I'm saying is it's nice to insulate yourself against the sort of the frivolous, or sorry, the sort of capricious nature of the business and technology and all those things and have a broad array of things that says like, yeah, this guy's like a songwriter. He's not like a guy who had a sound for a minute. Right. I guess is where I'm going with it. I mean, on a personal front, because I know you're, you know, the, regardless of the success of music and whatnot. You've gone through significant life issues. You've had like

familial issues and you've had to like grow as a person yeah in a way that not everybody has had to go through. You know, does how much of that influences the decision on you know, at least maybe does it have influenced how you appreciate things going on? Does it make you want to do other things outside of music because of where you've come from as a human, you know? Yeah, a bit. I mean, without getting too much into it, my mom passed away the year that I really started getting heavily into the songwriting thing. And that was, I think partially I needed something to really throw myself into after that happened.

And she had always been, like, incredibly supportive about all kind of creative endeavors that I had. but um so i really like went headlong into the into the running around writing a ton of songs getting a ton of songs out of my system and and uh that was you know that i would say you know that that was that was the worst year in my life uh while i was sort of giving birth to what what became maybe not maybe it wasn't like as cleanly as it was almost this clean though it was like the worst year in my life followed not directly on its heels but like maybe maybe that became like a year and a half that kind of went better and then to follow maybe a year or two later by like the best year of my life like I got married all these things that I have as a very like as I'm like an only child and I you know had a very my

was not like a spoiled kid but like was very comfortable and kind of uh you know I'm somewhat I I certainly suffer from from some arrested development because I was like uh I just was always like I didn't I just was that kid like I was always super shy and kind of like behind on things and as far as self-awakening and and realization and and and realizing certain goals and going going after them in certain ways so but then when it did come it came like bang bang bang like like even you know relationship stuff was like that too and like and so it was like first hit get married uh you know by a house like those things came all in one year. Right.

And it was only a couple years after, like, just utter misery and, you know, heartbreak. And I don't know what analysis there is about that, but that was the way it happened. No, I mean, that says, I imagine that, but that answer is the question. I mean, it is, it's hard, it's hard to pursue a career when everyone in the world talks about how difficult the music industry is and how. You know, it's a pipe dream. Right. You're like, no, this is a career choice, and I want to go and I want to pursue it. And something drives us to work every day, even though we know we might not get any, might not

make a living, maybe no one hears a song. And there's probably, if it takes a life-changing event to say, no, I'm going all in on this, you know, whether it's to think about something else or whether it's, you know, or it's a realization that you only have a certain amount of time, you know, or whatever it is. you know, it takes something to make you go all in. Definitely. You know, so that makes sense. Yeah.

And it's also really impressive. I mean, you have, you probably have the ability to say, I'm not going to do anything. Like at one point, you know, if you're saying from your childhood and whatnot, you probably didn't need to find the motivation as a human, as you're saying, the rest of development from growing up out here. it's possible that you could have just said, you know what, I'm going to be in this band forever. And be like this deadbeat guy, yeah.

Yeah, I mean, it's... I guess. I don't know if, uh, if anyone would have, I think I would have gotten a pretty good kick in the ass. Yeah, right, eventually. But yeah, there are, you know, I know... Well, because of your parents, obviously raised you well enough that, you know, that you wouldn't, wouldn't feel that way.

But they could have, they could have not raised you well. Sure. I know people have similar, similar backgrounds who, yeah, have gone that way, you know? Sure. So, but I was always desperately afraid of that. I didn't want to be that kind of like... Is that what drives you now, you think? Yeah, and I'd like to even sort of...

It was, yes, having success in something, particularly something that was not like Hollywood or... Right. ...was really important. And, I mean, it's obviously entertainment. Like, my parents were, when people would ask if I wanted to be an actor when I was a kid, they would just, like, step in and answer for me and be like, no. And they were not their type of parents.

They were like, anything you want to do. Sure. And they would, if I had... Did you want to do? No, not at all. But if I had had some... And maybe I was just influenced by them not wanting me to do it. But no, I actually wanted to be a writer when I was a kid.

I wanted to be like a poet and stuff. So I'm... That makes sense. You're sort of a poet. Yeah. So I wrote... I mean, you are a poet. The poetry of Talk Dirty.

It's like, yeah. It's like Ralph Waldo Emerson and then... Samuel Toler... Taylor Coleridge. Not Ralph Waldo Armerston. He's not a poet. I still got the gist. Thanks.

Once you sent me a text, you're like, well, it's not Hemingway or something like that. You wrote back in the session. Yeah. Hemingway in prose. Yeah. And the session drew cold. Yeah. And the writers drew blank.

But we sweat through the pain. Because they saw that it was a great struggle. Right. Right. Well, I mean, I feel like. I feel like we should end with you playing your medley if we can. I mean, we can always cut it

till it's right. Yeah. But, you know... Can you like, like, comp me and tune me and... Yeah, we'll comp you and tune you. My piano playing in time? But before we do that, you know, because we'll go out when that's done, I think, if you're down.

But, you know, I always feel like I'm watching... Most writers, I'm really envious of because they have they either started when they were younger or they were in the you know they have a certain level of success or they just have found a stride or they've done something but i always find myself watching your career as because we have such similar stories yeah that it's impossible not to watch it and and feel like i'm either watching you know something it there's there's no other writer i know of that I feel so connected with without being the same human. Yeah, likewise.

I mean, we kind of talked about that before, but that's, I've always thought that about you. I mean, yeah, it's, it's, it's strange. I mean, I, when did you, when did you come out here first? Well, I went to college out here. So I moved out. Yeah, yeah. Did you stay here right after school? Yeah, yeah, I never left.

Oh, okay. But I had a record deal in, basically in college. So, you know. How is, by the way, how is everybody getting these fucking record deals? Well, everyone I work with is always like. This is the joke of it. Here are two things. Not like you don't deserve a record.

No, no. You know, I had a shitty record company in college that I thought I was doing for my senior project. It was my internship. For my internship, I said, can I start a record company? And they said, yes. And essentially, I started my own record company and figured it out and just kept putting imprints on it. And that was called Jive Records. Right.

Well, totally, because that's the emblematic thing. That is like the dreams. It's just like, if I can get a record deal. It's all uphill. Then we've got the whole apparatus at our fingertips and we can do it. And now when somebody says to you, you know, do you want to work with blank artists and you say, well, I mean, do they have a record deal? Yeah. And they still actually sort of figures in.

And they still say yes and you're still like, no, I never heard of them. So it's not a priority. Sounds early. Sounds early. Yeah. Like you're at that point. Yeah. And I'm thinking.

By the way, have you noticed that it's early? Have we talked about this? You know I had this conversation about how it's early is. like the code for... It's never going to happen. Or like, it sucks. Oh, that's funny. That's really funny.

Yeah. Yeah, it was also right. Yeah. And like, yeah, you just say, hey, have you been in with so-and-so? They're asking about sessions for them. Right. And they go...

Well, it's a little early. Yeah, they go, how is it? They go, it's early. Yeah. You go, just like a little wink? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's funny. But don't you feel like...

See, I feel like delusion is one of the most, is very important, which is strange because on the one hand, when you see people who you think are, like, delusional, like certain actors you'll talk to or doing stuff, and you're like, oh, that's dark. You know, like whatever gig they're going out for the next day. Sure.

And you're like, dude, this dude is so far from the thing he thinks he's going for. And then you, but that's how it was. So I guess what I'm saying is there are certain times when you, would you be like, oh man, somebody should would be doing someone a favor by waking them up and being like, dude. Yeah. You're so far.

Yeah. It's not going to happen. So far. But you never do because delusion is important. It's the carrot that keeps you going. So when you see... Or you can call hope.

Hope. I mean, it's sort of a bit. Right, exactly, which I guess is what hope is. Delusions of grandeur. Certain faith. But yeah, when you see your goal and you're like, I can get there. in a year and then you get to that

and you're like, you realize like it was an oasis and the real thing is a whole other year and then it's that gradual thing that youth affords you. Yeah, that you just keep chasing and chasing and chasing and you get these little milestones that once you get them where you realize

like aren't getting you what you need. So what is it for you? I mean, for me it was like I wanted that. I wanted to have a hit you know, in multiple genres. I wanted to have a certain amount of charts. You were just doing band thing.

You were like, this was going to be my thing. Well, I wanted to get a record deal. Right. And then I wanted to go, and that happened. And then it was a terrible time in the industry, too. I think, you know, 2004 through 2009, when no one knows how to monetize iTunes still hadn't even been out yet. Right.

You know, it was like that came out basically a year into the process. Right, and they're just slashing stuff. Yeah, and it's disorganized, and they don't really know exactly what it is. And, you know, at least I could buy my album in a Virgin megastore. And that was cool, you know? Because that's what I really wanted to do. I wanted to walk into a record store. I still go and buy every CD I have a song on.

I always go to Target or to Amoeba or something and buy it. That's awesome. Because to me, that was my goal, was to walk into a record store and buy my music. Yeah. And I'm still achieving it. So I have a lot of albums I've never listened to because I don't even have a CD player. Right.

Like my computer doesn't have a CD thing anymore. But I own the CDs. You can probably buy them on vinyl now. They're making everything on vinyl. Yeah, sure. I did that with Evigan the other day where we were on a break from a song and he's got some records store around the corner.

He's like, dude. He was like with one of Donna thing and just coming out. He's like, let's go in and buy all the records that we have, the new records that we have songs on. He bought like seven. I bought like, you know, three or five. I don't know where to go from here.

I mean, I've signed an artist. I signed an artist. I signed a writer. I feel like I'm moving towards building out, but hopefully not too fast, so it can still be a writer. But you're building out, you're inspiring because you're building out

in other forms of writing, other forms of music. I mean, you know, Wrong man. Oh, right. Was fantastic. And like you can do more. I want to find my version of,

of that, not necessarily a musical, but some other type of writing that's not necessarily music, some other creative sort of project. I know we've talked about someday starting a musical. We absolutely should do it. But like you said, people are like, oh, we should do a musical. And they don't realize that it takes 15 years. Yeah, 15 years to do.

So when you're like, let's go in on this, this is not like a serious endeavor. Yeah. But I do think there's a pedagogical aspect to what we are doing here. hear and you can go and you can go and speak at universities you can help future writers you can help future artists understand this process so they don't make the same idiot mistakes that we made yeah i mean that's the evolution of anything and certainly is the music industry definitely so i mean i think that's the aspiration is to actually do something that matters yeah to to the industry that has afforded me the life that i have oh that's nice

I think, yeah, that's good. Like, you have good sort of music industry, like stewardship goals, which I think is great. Because I would have, like, killed for, like, if there were a podcast like this when I was starting to write, oh, my God, it would have meant everything. Because music will always be the Wild West as far as media is concerned. It will be always, I think, the most lawless and the most, like, in good ways and bad ways. And people will get super gangster on someone and threaten them. for publishing, had that happen. But also

someone will just say, I am this, and they will be that because they said that they were. And that can lead to a lot of bullshit and can also lead to great, you know, marvelous careers by self-made people and, you know, you know, their Jay-Zs and all those, you know, people come coming up. So anyway, it's good.

I think it's necessary. We need more people pushing the... conversation forward. Well, on that note, thank you. Oh, thanks for having me, man. Thanks for listening to this episode of And The Writer Is. If you want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed, be sure to check out our Spotify playlist or visit our website at and the writer is.com. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe to us on iTunes. You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter. And The Writer Is is is produced by Joe London, edited by Miles Bergsma,

and published by Big Deal Music. A special thanks to Jeff Sparger, David Silverstein from Mega House Music, and Michael White. Until next time, this is Ross Golan.