And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 40: busbee

Episode Date: May 7, 2018

Originally hailing from the Bay Area and now based in LA, this Grammy-nominated songwriter, producer and publisher has deservedly become an untouchable force in the songwriting community. Best known for carving parallel careers in mainstream Pop and commercial Country, busbee has written with and produced for a wide range of artists, including Gwen Stefani, P!nk, Kelly Clarkson, Jon Bellion, Timbaland, Rachel Platten, Christina Aguilera, 5 Seconds of Summer, Lady Antebellum, Shakira, and more. Recent smash hits in the Country market include "The Fighter“ by Keith Urban (feat. Carrie Underwood), "My Church" & "80s Mercedes" by Maren Morris, and BMI of the Year "H.O.L.Y." by Florida Georgia Line. Additionally, many of busbee’s hits in both the Pop And Country markets have been 50/50 collaborations. A true musician's musician and family man....And The Writer Is…busbee! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to Season 3 of And The Writer is I am your host, Ross Golan. I've written with hundreds of artists and writers over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life, the industry, politics, composition, whatever. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs, and most importantly, who the people are who write the songs. I'm producing this with the Great Joe London,

big deal music publishing and megahouse music management. If you want to listen to the songs we discuss in this podcast, follow us on our socials, find out about special events, or buy some of our merchandise. Go to our website www. and the writer is.com. Oh, and if you enjoy this podcast,

please rate us on iTunes or whatever your preferred podcast listening site is. We really appreciate that effort. Today's podcast is brought to you by Ban Zougal. From Weekend Warriors to Grammy winners, Bandzugal powers the website for tens of thousands of musicians around the world. So whether you're just starting out or looking for an affordable solution to build a new website and manage your direct-to-fan sales,

you can use Ban Zougal's simple tools to design a website and store that both you and your fans will love. Go to Banzugel.com to try it free. for 30 days. And be sure to use the promo code ATWI. That's ATWI to get 15% off

the first year of your subscription. Welcome to And the Writer is. I'm your host Ross Golan. This week's writer producer has topped both pop and country charts, the latter of which he's done multiple times. Look, there are general rules

that most of us in the industry play by. If you want to write country, live in Nashville. If you want to write pop, live in L.A. or New York or Stockholm. This guy is one of the few who successfully lives in both. I guess if you set trends

rather than chase them, you can live wherever you want. From Northern California, this writer actively makes the world a better place, and the writer is the other half of our clergy duo Busby. Amen.

So just to clarify, so the very first time we wrote, which was probably like eight years ago. Something like that. Orange Skies. I was thinking of that title this morning. We actually play that in our household. It's a cool song, man.

Relative. You got to get that cut. Do you ever reproduce old songs? I haven't, but I'd gladly, especially for something like that. We should just throw it to somebody and get them to do it. I'm super in. No, the reason why we came up with the clergy thing was because you've been a pastor before. music pastor at the church I grew up in yeah

what's a music pastor like they call them worship pastor so you're not the actual like dude up or gal up preaching and leading the church you're leading the music portion of it right so like if you're the terminology would be like if you're a worship leader at least in the kind of church I go to that's that's the person who's leading the music but if you're the worship pastor typically it's the person who's like on staff leading the music which I did for a year when I was 23 or so I found that a few of other producers that we know of, you know, we're in a church

band or church wire, whatever it is. You know, it's, it's not like you guys were in, in, like, cover bands where you had to do like a certain kind of music. What translates from church music to pop music? Well,

I think, I can't speak for those folks, but I know for me, like, it's, like, I was just listening to the music that I was listening to him because I was part of church and there was music there, and I demonstrate an ability in music they were like why don't you play in the band you know or do whatever and i think that's a part of the correlation why there's so many people in the music industry who have some sort of like church context because there's so much music at church you know i know you've talked a lot about the

music in the culture in sweden like in school and formal education it's like so everywhere we don't really have that as much so one of the main places that you would find a lot of music would be church i think so i think that's the sort of correlation um specifically to pop music it's i don't know Because for me it was like when I was playing a church, like we were playing hymns and stuff early on, which I mean it was pop of its day. It was like bar tunes with religious lyrics, you know? But I was listening to jazz all through my teen years.

And so even when I was the worship leader at that church at 23 or something, that's when I just began to proactively listen to something besides jazz, like literally. So were you not exposed to pop music? It was around me peripherally. I mean, you know, you go to the grocery store or whatever, but my mom would listen to, like, a lot of Christian music, and it was, like, specifically, like, Hot A-C Christian music. So it's, like, the softest, like, hot A-C is this soft, no offense.

I mean, I've been a part of that, too. You know what I mean? But then Christian Hot A-C is, like, the soft-soft version of the soft-soft thing. And then my dad would listen to, like, you know, oldies and black gospel music, and Hank, a little Hank and a little Willie. That's some of the country thing. But mostly, he would just listen to oldies and classic rock. And then my sister would listen to like, she's a few years older than me,

and that was the era of like Bon Jovi and, you know, poison and all that stuff. And then she'd listen to a little bit of pop radio. So I remember that band, A Rested Development, which is a band also, not just a TV show. And that's song, Tennessee. I remember cranking that. My sister literally didn't have a... And Mr. Wendell. Yeah, exactly.

She didn't have a radio in her truck. My dad had bought in her truck. She had a boom box, and we'd put it in the seat in between us. We were driving in high school, and she'd be playing her tapes, and I'd sort of halfway listen to that stuff. But I was just a jazz head, man, super jazz boo. I was telling someone the other day that from now to when, let's say, you know, Nirvana came out in 91. But let's go like just for math 92.

That's 25 years ago. Yeah. 25 years before you were born were like crazy old songs. Like oldies, like we're not, you know, that's before rock around the clock. Yeah, totally. So when you think of what oldies were when we were little, we're closer to when we were little than Nirvana is to now. Totally.

Which really messes with my head. Yeah, totally does. I mean, if you think, you know, I was born in 76, and so my early memories of being in the car, my dad is a contractor, so driving his truck on the way to work, listening to whatever, it would be, I mean, the early part of that would be the early 50s, but like Elvis, but a lot of it was, you know, 60s music.

Dude, 60s music now would be the equivalent of listening to whatever, music came out in 2008. Imagine turn on the oldies station and that's like Nirvana. And we used to call them oldies, you know? That's kind of messed up. Yeah, it's totally a trip. I don't know, that's really been messing with me. Anyway, so, you know, because I grew up going to, like, Hebrew school and our music

kind of sucks, which might be why so many Jews try to write Christmas songs. I don't know if that's like that's like a thing. Dude, it's not far off. Maybe that's why. So many of those Christmas songs were written by Jews who want to have better music in our culture. Let's go back to when you were saying you were in jazz bands. I mean, your bios everywhere, you know, you can read that you started playing piano when you were seven.

You started playing trombone when you were probably, what, 12 or something? Yeah, in early high school I switched to trombone. And then that's the instrument that really made you. you get recognized as a musician from the difference of being like, oh, you're a guy in the high school band versus like, no, man, this guy's a little bit better than some of the other guys in this high school band. Yeah, there's actually a funny little story, which was, so we started piano at seven, all of us brothers and sisters had to do that.

My parents kind of made us, not in like the horrible way that you think of. It was just, my parents, you know, there was definitely some shortcomings like all parents, but one of the things they were good at was that. It was like, no, you're just. making music. And neither one of their musicians, they just love it. So we had to quote unquote play piano from like seven and then we could quit after eighth grade.

And then the school that we happened to go do happened to have a really good band and I played various instruments then. So I went into high school as a euphonium or baritone horn player, which is the same mouthpiece as a trombone. It sounds like a trombone, but it's got valves like a trumpet. And so, and I think, and I'd march drum and buglecore as well.

So one of the guys who taught it, the drum and Buick-a-core also was like the high school marching band teacher. And so he and the actual band director brought me into the band director's office and sat me down and they were very serious. And they were like, you know, what do you want to do with yourself? And I'm like, I want to be a musician. Like, well, so you want to make music professionally. I'm like, yeah. And they're like, well, you know, being a euphonian player, it's a really small market. I mean, you can't be in a, orchestra. They're not in jazz band. You'd have to be a solo musician. You should switch to trombone. as in that's a better way

to make a living, making music. Go from your phoning to trombone, which not to diss any trombone players. No, but it's all in a ratio, right? Yeah, I mean, it's all in proportion to whatever you're doing. And I'm not to be all heavy. You're like a lute player, then. Yeah, maybe try acoustic guitar. 100%. And it's like, you know,

almost every trombone player I know who's a professional trombone player is also teaching and all that stuff, which is wonderful, but it's part of the many reasons I didn't go into that field because I didn't want to be a professional teacher. I wanted to do the thing. So, anyways, trombone really became my identity through high school and to your point it was like our band

happened to be a really good band and so we'd go to nationwide competitions and we'd win like jazz band and I'd win soloist and then in college I won this scholarship called the Frank Rosalino Memorial Scholarship which I don't know how true to reality this is but by definition it's available to all college age jazz trombone players which it's a pretty small niche we all

if you're a trombone player and you're any good in the world and your jazz musician, you kind of would know about this thing. And I happened to win it in 1995, which technically meant I was like the best college age jazz tromone player in the world. But I don't know if that's real or not, but it was, that's how serious I was about and how committed I was to it. And it wasn't a side thing. It was like my total thing. And then long story short, my folks wound up getting divorced. I didn't have the money to go back to school. I came home. I had this huge life crisis. You know, that's actually when I went into working at the church. and it wasn't like a plan B.

I didn't really want to do that, but then I felt like I was supposed to, and so I signed up to do that for a year, and I stopped playing trombone. And then after that, I was 23. I was living at my mom's house. I was making $650 a month because the church was graciously paying me

post-worship leader job to be the sort of staff piano player. And all my friends were graduating in college. One of my best friends graduated with a finance degree and got a job at Arthur Anderson, making $65 grand a year as a 23-year-old. and I'm like $650 a month in my mom's house depressed going. What am I doing with myself?

You know, it's a crazy time. It's probably one of the lower times of my life, really. Wow. Let's go back to the trombone playing. Were you ever writing, composing pieces for the band to play? Yeah, writing, I didn't know it at the time, but writing has been a big part of my history. Even as a piano player, I would be like,

I didn't like learning all the stuff you're supposed to learn. like here's a Bach piece. It's like, oh, I dread, just let me make my own thing up, you know. And I don't know if it was laziness or disinterest or what, but like, you know, I wasn't very good at practicing. I was fortunately naturally gifted enough where I could still like succeed at some level in those things. But it became pretty evident to me that I, if I was going to be a real professional

in any instrument, I'd have to practice a lot more as part of why I didn't do that. But to your question, absolutely, I was in jazz groups in high school and I'd write I guess you can call them songs you know melody and chord driven stuff and same in college and I was always the one who would bring in my own tune you know they'd be playing standards and I'd be like I wrote this song it's like you know whatever

and then in early 20s when I started getting into when I was at that church they they were like well pay you X amount of dollars for 35 hours a week I don't care what you do just as long as you get your job done and so they literally just let me sit in my office and make music and I got a fast computer and Logic 3 on a PC and started recording and learning how to write songs

the first real song I wrote was called Fishing for Love really bad I luckily don't have a recording of it, can't find it, have tried. Can you sing it though? Don't even remember it, no. It was bad, it was me trying to be sting. That became a very popular sound later, so... Yeah, exactly.

Did you write music for the church? Some. That came in more of my early 20s again. And that's a whole other conversation, which I'll gladly have. But it's, like, obviously, we want to be inspired when we write songs. Some of the best work we've done has been inspired, whether it inspired, meaning like, you know, the way you felt when you wrote my house wasn't probably the same inspiration when you write some, like, hyper-meaningful ballad or whatever. But they're both inspired in different ways, right? With church music, like, I'm trying to write a song in worship to God to, for, for, a group of people to sing. And so I wanted them to always be as pure as it can be, you know, and I never wanted to like set out to do that in any professional context. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I just know for me that was something that was really tricky. So I've only written a handful of songs for the church,

and they've always come from that place where it felt like an inspired thing or something I needed to say or something that was kind of given to me. Because the profession around that world, it's a tricky world, man. There's a lot of money, people making a lot of money writing songs for the church. And I'm not saying that's a bad thing. the church needs songs and good ones. But it was not something I really ever set out to do. I imagine writing something, because people always use the word edgy,

whenever they're talking about anything, if it's hot AC, AC, if it's pop, country, you know, if you're writing for Christian music, it still has to be edgy in a way that people are like, ah, I want to sing that one versus all, you know, the last 2,000 years of, you know. I think the edginess in that context is just real. as real as it can be. And you can kind of feel when something feels like it's inspired. I know that

sounds so vague and cheesy, but it's true. Like if a song feels really inspired, there's not, in church music, there is no my house. There's no like, let's put the record on and shake our asses. Like, that doesn't exist, right? So they're all pretty much, they're celebratory in one way, but they're usually like anthemic if they're up tempos or if they're mid tempos or ballads. They're just really heartfelt, you know. Do you write from an inspired place now? I try to, yeah. I mean, we we wind up writing so much it's not like you're going to be inspired every day but I absolutely try to follow like

what I'm feeling you know and the balance you and I've talked a lot about the concept of math and all that stuff and like the balance of the math and the heart you know because I want to feel it and not just heart like every song I'm writing is not like I love you or love lost or whatever sometimes they're just fun you know feel good songs but

with that still feeling like oh man that feels dope you know I look for that when did you start writing good songs I'm not sure I have yet No I don't know I don't know I mean but you know you're 23

and you're writing in an office You're writing fishing for love Oh they were bad Were the lyrics in fishing to love Were you literally fishing Or was it a metaphor? I literally don't remember I mean I would gladly tell you

Because I could see fishing for love As like a literal fishing for love Like it'd be like a very Like a country song or something Yeah Luke Brian pitch Yeah that's a good title We should write that

Well as a point of reference I didn't sign a publishing deal. Well, I signed a publishing, I moved to LA in 2000. I was 24. Pardon? Why? To pursue this whole thing full time. I had a mentor.

I'd love to talk about this guy, John Bendich. I'll come back to that. But he really was like, dude, if you're going to do this for a living, you got to be. At the time, the viable options were L.A., New York, Nashville, or Atlanta. And there's definitely viability with all of those still. But, you know. Wait, who is this guy? So I was on a, I'm going to preface all this by saying, again,

I'm not making any of this up. I literally got a call one day from this guy named Mike Rinta, who was a fellow Tramone player in my hometown, who was like, hey, can you sub for this gig? And I was like, yeah, sure. It's probably like $150 a gig. And we were going to do four nights up the West Coast, a little mini tour night after night

in clubs like the size of House of Blues. And it was a 20-piece Grateful Dead tribute band. I'm not a Grateful Dead fan at all. And so I didn't even know most of those songs, but you just show up and they give you the music. And it was like a five-piece horn section. literally it was trumpet trombone soprano tenor alto sax two violins two cellos guitar vibraphone b3 congas drums two singers like it was insane right and this guy had like inherited some money and

always wanted to do it so he like put it all together so nobody touring with that many people is making money at a house of blues zero yeah he was breaking even um and for him break even it's really hard to do in any tour but people showed up it was hilarious like it was i mean because that that whole thing is a thing, you know, I mean, people. So anyways, the guy on Congos was this guy, John Bendich, and we became buddies. And long story short, he was about late 30s at the time. He really saw something and, like, really helped me. He was the one who kind of wooed me into commercial music, or whatever you want to call it, out, not away from jazz, because he loves jazz too, but he gave me, like Stevie Wonder solo, or Stevie Wonder Records and Sting Solo Records,

like are the jazzier side of pop and was like, check this stuff out. So I was just freaking out about that stuff because the chords are amazing. And I was very jazz. he's still at that time. So he was the one who literally, like, long story short, I would call. I'd write a song, I'd call him and put the phone on my offender roads and play him the whole song, and he'd listen to it and give me feedback and all that kind of stuff. And his father was the minority owner and staff lawyer of the Fantasy Records Empire. And so that's part of where he got his knowledge and understanding of the whole thing

is just being around all that. And he's incredibly gifted and an incredibly gracious person, like his very knowledgeable and very giving of his knowledge. I wasn't signed to any deal. He didn't even have the infrastructure. It was literally just like, I like you, I'll teach you. I mean, he wouldn't even say that, but I'll show you what I know

and I'll give you feedback on what you're doing. And it wasn't even talked about. We just did it. And he, I mean, still one of my best friends to this day. He's like an uncle or something to me. So were you writing music that sounded like Stevie Wonder and like Sting? So you weren't really defining.

You hadn't, I guess even when you play jazz, you know, first thing I had, had to do is write lyrics to kind of blue. And to take all the trumpet solos and write lyrics to it. That's what my jazz teacher made me do in high school. And I didn't realize that that was going to be my profession.

But I would take all the kind of blue things and write to it. Before I was writing songs at the time. But it was really interesting how you learn from sort of mimicking. Yeah. 100%. But one of the

perks I had was that I'm really bad at mimicking. Perfect. Do you know what I mean? Which is really good for pop. Because if you sound exactly like everybody else, then, you know, you're going to get... I'm pretty bad at that, too. You know?

So when in that were you starting, you know, you're writing these songs that sound like stings, sounding like Stevie Wonder, when are you like, oh, this one's... I'm going to go in this direction. It's kind of like, it's a little wrong. But I'm going to see what he thinks about this. Yeah. It's funny because I wasn't even in that headspace. It was literally just like, because I didn't understand yet, not parameters like in a bad way,

but I didn't even understand the rules or the rules is the wrong term. It's like playing football, but not knowing you're playing football. So I'd be out there like doing ballet and, you know, shooting, throwing the ball like it was a basketball or like setting up an archery. You know, you're like, what are you doing? It's like, what do you mean? I'm just out here doing the thing. There was no understanding of the context of popular song form.

other than first chorus and that type of stuff. So I think it was like, it wasn't more that I like turned a corner and then there I was and I was doing the thing. It was more like moments of it at times would be dope and he would help identify those. And then even when I moved to L.A., I moved down here to be an assistant to a producer

and I did that for a year. And then I signed a publishing deal with another producer, which unfortunately just wasn't a good situation. But, you know, one of our songs, One of the bits of things that I started wound up being a song that he cut on one of the Spice Girls, so that was like one of my first real cuts. Which Spice Girl?

Mel C. But he didn't credit me. My own publisher, who I was signed to. Did you want to be an artist ever? Is that why you were... Because when you're sending your vocals and stuff on songs, were you like, I'm going to move down to L.A. to be an artist?

No. I just sang because who else was I going to get to sing? There was about a six-month period where I pursued an artist thing simply because I had written a bunch of songs that totally came out of my life and my friends were like, these are great, you should, you know, and then I'd realize very quickly, it's like, no, I indeed do not want to do that. I've never really enjoyed that. Did you tour and stuff? No, just did some shows around LA for about six months and was like, I just hated it. I love making records. I love the sounds of recordings. I mean, I do love a good live show, but one of the

things I deal with is they don't sound great usually, you know. I've been to a small handful of live shows in my life that actually sounded good. You know, and so you're up on stage, and you're up on stage and I know the difference and you're trying to play and every like you can't really hear the bass like you spend your life as a producer like listening to it sonically and making sure it's all the way it should be and then you get up on stage and you're supposed to throw all that out the window it's like nah I'm not into it I mean that's some of the education that really helps with this generation that's coming up is that they can you can be a singer and that doesn't mean you have to go and perform on stage totally that I you know I sing more now than I ever have in my life and

it's not while I'm on tour. Totally. You know, so there's something really interesting about the idea of discovering in different ways to make a living off of your musicality other than performing, because when you're in high school,

we're going to put you in the jazz band, we're going to put you in the chorus. But when you're an adult, you're like, I don't know, I guess I'm going to go and do this kind of drum programming or I'm going to be this producer. Part of it, too, like, I'm super pragmatic in the midst,

of the creativity and so it's like huge part of it is like the kind of life, the kind of life I would be living if I was fill in the blank. If I was a, not to presume I could be but if I was a successful touring artist, that kind of lifestyle, it's just the demands, even the people

that I'm aware of who do that and keep some sort of like balance in their life, it's still not the kind of life I want, you know. Okay, here's the deal. I am technologically challenged. I've always been technologically challenge, I barely know how to use this computer to record this thing that I'm

recording right now. So I can guarantee you that I cannot build a website. And when I was in a band, I just needed something to help me build my band's website. Well, you are in luck because today's podcast is brought to you by Banzugal. Banzugal makes it easy to build a stunning website for music in minutes. Choose from over 100 mobile-friendly themes, then customize your design and content in a few clicks with Banzoogle's easy visual editor. All the features you need for a professional website are already built in, including tools to sell your music and merch commission free, write on your website, mailing list tools to grow your fan list, and send newsletters, integrations to pull in content from all your online services like Twitter or Instagram,

and SoundCloud and live support from their musician-friendly team seven days a week. Banzugal plans start at just $8.29 a month and include your own free custom domain name. Go to banzugal.com to try it for free for 30 days. And be sure to use the promo code, ATWI. That's ATWI to get 15% off the first year of your subscription. Banzugal, websites built for musicians by musicians. How were you paying your bills when you moved down to L.A.? Does that publishing deal...

Well, the first year I was... Not right away. I was an assistant to this guy, Eric. Eric Valentine. Yeah. Oh, that's really cool. It was awesome. I moved to be his assistant.

I was his assistant for a year. And, you know, he paid me like 25 grand or something, which was enough barely... Not meaning he wasn't paying me enough, but it's like a starting salary enough to live on, you know, not a glamour. life but was plenty of good. What were you working on? Because I mean, at the time in that era, that's like, he's like

the rock guy. Yeah, I sort of jokingly say to him that I was a part of all of his worst records. He's one of the most incredible at what he does, producing, engineering, mixing, but it was like the third smashmouth record, which they weren't, they weren't like creatively bad. They just weren't successful. So third smash mouth record, this band called Cinematic. He was also at the time, his former bandmate was like trying to sue him very illegitimately and that was all resolved during that time but it was a big way to think that he was

dealing with so but he i mean he was such a generous person with his knowledge still to this day he's a good friend of mine we were talking just the other day and um we actually co-produced the record together recently something i brought him in on which was really kind of hilariously full circle yeah but um he's been probably be coming out in a few months yeah exactly it's exciting so um we'll talk about it later yeah so he i was able to sit there and watch somebody who truly is a master at what they do. I don't think people realize what kind of man this is, but Eric Valentine's, you know,

he did, you know, All-Star for... Smash mouth. He did... First Third Eye Blind record, which is a masterpiece, in my opinion. Some huge records, mid-late 90s. He's the guy who literally would build his own console. Yeah, he builds his own outboard gear. He builds his own speakers. Yeah.

There's no one that's successful that I know that is that far into building your own studio. Not like, I'm going to build my own studio and put some panels on the wall. I'm going to build the studio. I mean, like, every little electronic piece from scratch. Yeah, and it's not like, in no slight here, but it's not like some producer going, I have a brand, let me do a deal with SC electronics and put my name on their products. It's not that kind of thing, which that's fine too. And SE makes great products.

but it's Eric literally going, you know what, I've owned a classic Neve console and there wasn't enough inputs and I've owned the new Neve console and I don't like the way it sounds. So let me build my own console that does what I needed to do which turned into him then building preamps and EQs

for other people and then his own version of a Fairchild which I think is one of the best sounding compressors. It's insane. And he has a partner, this guy Larry Jasper, who he works with who's just like almost rainmanish kind of character, you know, and the two of them together it's just this explosive combination. That's a cool way to get into Los Angeles.

I mean, I think my first job, I was in a studio and I got to make coffee for everybody. Yeah. But my boss was a prick, and I felt like I had to get out of there. And it was totally when you could burn demos on CDs, and I totally handed my demo off to an engineer who was a producer, whatever. And he's like, oh, I can make this into something. And it was like, you know, I quickly got fired for handing my demo over. And then I ended up doing my first recording.

So it's like sometimes being in the room is like is a big step. And like finding a way to just get in the door is massive. Eric was actually, he was the first one to really say to me, you're a songwriter. And he wasn't saying you're not a musician, you're not a producer, you're not whatever. But like you should know that you're a songwriter. How did he know that? Well, to him, and I could look at it now, it's hilariously obvious. Like, I would do my work as his assistant, and then anytime there was nothing specific for me to do,

because he didn't need the kind of assistant where I have to be in the control room every moment, plugging in things for him. Like, it's his setup. It's exactly what he'd know. It was more like almost like PA work slash quasi engineering assistant. So there's big chunks of time where he wouldn't need me or whatever, and I'd be in the B room sitting on the piano, writing songs, basically, not even thinking about, I'm going to go write songs.

It was just, let me do that thing. needed to create. Did you know about publishing? Like you're going into this situation where you walk into a major city, into a major producer and you're sitting in the room writing songs. That kind of producer isn't taking a lot of outside material cutting it on artists. Those artists tend to be the primary writers. Totally. So where in this thought process are you like, I'm going to go reach out and start getting, you know, showing people these songs? Well, it was funny. It was a story that just hit my brain when you asked that. There was, I think it was Jesse McCartney,

he was needing songs or something like that. This was 17 years ago. So I wrote this song. Oh, it's so embarrassing. Hit me with the groove. Oh, my gosh. Dude, sick title. Yeah, amazing title.

And I actually sent it to his A&R guy, who's a gentleman named David Stam, who's now my publisher. And I've told David this story. He doesn't remember it. But he wasn't a dick, but he was appropriately honest with me. Because of my association with Eric,

I was able to get him on the phone and go, hey, did you listen to that thing? And Eric was gracious enough to, like, connect the dots. And David literally said to me, do you listen to the radio? Which he didn't, I don't think he was trying to be. No, that's a great question. It was actually, and it was the kind of thing I would say to somebody if they, it's in that context, if they were trying to send. Because now I know, like, what the competitions really like and just to have an awareness of like what is actually going on and radio and all those things. I was just in my little room riding a song and I thought was cool.

and they're like, he's doing sort of like an MJ thing. So I took it quite literally and did this very like retro-sounding thing that had nothing to do with anything. So it was, you know, honestly, man, I've been a huge benefactor of people seeing a measure of talent and a big heart and not giving me passes,

but just encouraging me along the way when they could have gone, man, you don't know. And I had a couple people do that, really, and I could tell those stories too, but most people that have been, like an Eric or a John or all these other people I mentioned have been so gracious with encouragement. Really, that's what it is.

I mean, it's like, because dude, we're, like this, this path is crazy. Like, if you actually look at the stats, we shouldn't even, we're going to try to write a song later. We should not try to write a song. Because statistically, nothing's going to happen. Do you know what I mean? It's like, and all of the stuff and how few of us are fortunate enough to make any kind of living,

let alone like buying houses and feeding families. off this stuff. It's crazy, man. Yeah, I try to explain to people if you want, you know, if other people who have a normal job, I'm going to say normal in quotes, because I guess most people don't have a totally normal job. But if you know that 19 days out of 20, so that's almost every day but one in a month, you're going to unsuccessfully walk out those doors at the end of the day. You're going to walk out, you're going to go in, you're going to spend nine hours in that office, you're going to walk out a failure.

Literally, that's what we do most of the time. And then that one day or a month is somehow worth the other 19 days. That's four weeks of material that you have to write to, if you get one, just one a week.

Yeah. You know, or one a month, I mean. One a month means you'd have 12 successful songs in a year. That makes you the biggest songwriter in the world if you have 12 successful songs in a year. Yeah. And that means you're writing one successful song per month.

So that means every day you walk in, your odds are pretty much that you're going to just fall on your face. But that's why it's more important to work with people you enjoy than people who are talented because odds are you're going to write a shitty song. So you might as well have a good day. Enjoy it. Yeah, totally. I've thought about that a lot.

And it's like, obviously, we all wish that we can know when those days are going to be, right, and just show up for those days. But you can't. Right. You know, and it's like, weirdest combination of people can make the thing happen. Or you wake up with the chorus in your head that you bring in with your buddy in Detroit and paint cuts it and it becomes this huge song. So you go through this publishing deal. This is your, you know, you're now in your mid-20s.

Yeah. And you're trying to figure out how do I make a living at this? And you're always so close in L.A. where you know the guy who has the hit. You know the guy who's in the band. You know the producer who did or publisher or whatever. And you're always thinking, like, why don't I have that song yet? Yeah. What kept you going through that part of your career?

Well, kind of a survival mentality, but also, like, what else am I going to do? Like, I have to make, I think I'm best at making music. So let me figure out. Were you making any money from these publishing deals? Well, so the first, let me put a little bit of a context in this situation. So this wasn't like, like in my, when I first signed this publishing deal, I didn't really fully understand how publishing works. And even though this guy had been involved in some very legitimate projects and in with Erica, especially I was in the periphery of these things, I still did not have an understanding of this stuff. Like my real business understanding and like not even just the business savvy, but the like how it works in any context didn't even really start to my late 20s and early 30s when I signed a proper publishing deal.

Did you know you weren't, like did you know what you were writing songs at that? that point, were you aware that you had to learn and get better? Or were you sitting there being like, why, these songs are huge? Well, no, because the context for me, so after that guy let me out of that deal, my business, quote unquote, became producing independent bands, basically. So, because I knew I could monetize that, writing songs unless you have the hits, even then, you know, or unless you have the access to the big artist, which I didn't. And I didn't really know many people. You know, it was like, so I was like, let me monetize my abilities by, so this band comes over to my house, you know, not as, not as nice as this house, but basically the equivalent.

There was a shed in the back. And they would give me, you know, let's say you have 20 grand to do a whole record. And so I became the all singing, all dancing. What do you need? I'll write the songs with you. And usually they were the better songs that we co-wrote. But it wasn't like I was thinking, cool. And then I'm going to take them over to, you know, Dan McCarroll or, you know, John Janica, whoever, I didn't even know these people. Like, it was just literally like, I didn't, it was just these labels and this thing that was way over there. I was just making my

doing the band thing. And so they would pay me the money and I would be basically, I would be producer, mixer, engineer, sometimes mastering engineer. So long story short, after about four or five years of that. So I moved here when I was 24. I worked with Eric for a year, so I was 25. I worked

the other dude for a few months. And then, so between like 25, 26 until I was about 30, I was just doing all that. And it was literally at the house that I lived in, this literal shed that wasn't even like, I mean, it was a big wood shed, but it wasn't insulated or anything. And if you push on the wall, the thing would like move a bit, you know. And the AC was like one of those old wall units that was like, ah, while you're recording. Well, we'd have to turn it off in between. But yeah, I mean, it was, there was no, like,

I didn't even know what a split level AC unit was. If I did, I would have bought one. But it was like, you know, just making it work. And I was honestly making a fairly good living for a single person in LA doing that thing fully independently it was crazy and then one day so the impetus for me to get into what I'm doing now was you know I sort of saw the writing on the walls this is where my pragmatic side would kick in I'm going okay I look at Eric's life for example he was the best example I had of someone who is a hero who is a hero and someone I look up to and this is not a slight on him he doesn't have kids he's not married it's not a value it's not the same value to him that that is to me and so it hasn't up until recently mattered to him

that he was in the studio six or seven days a week, 12 to 16 hours a day, you know. And that's part of what gave us all this wonderful work of his, but it was something I looked at in a practical way and was like, I want to be married, I don't have kids, and I know that those things don't work together. And almost all my heroes, and I won't name anyone else, I can say what I said about Eric

because it was, you know, what it was. But like some of the other people I look at, they are married multiple times and don't have good relationship with their kids, kids and I'm not judging anybody. I just knew what I wanted and it wasn't that. Being married, having a family was super important to me and having a great relationship with my wife and kids was really important to me. So I'm looking at it going, man, I can't be in the studio six days a week like I am 12 to 14 hours a day, basically being a well-paid pro tools operator because I would

record. They would go away. I'd make it sound like a record between editing and playing other things. And so 80% of the time, plus I'm sitting there by myself in this shed behind a house in Pasadena with the noisy air conditioner on ProTool is just going, I hate my life, basically, even though I'm doing the thing I love doing. Were you already with your wife at the time? No, I didn't meet her until I was 32, 33. But you knew at the time that eventually you want to set a different tone. Totally.

There's this verse in Psalms that talks about preparing your fields, and I forget the exact passage, but it's literally like, prepare yourself for what you want. If you build it, it will go. Kind of, yeah. kind of thing, you know, and it's like, and I actually That wasn't Psalms, but yeah, exactly. Which verse is that? Is that part of the Torah?

I had a friend who was actually one of my band directors who shares my faith and I was hanging with him and his wife and they were actually, they brought that passage to mine and were specifically encouraging me like, you know, it's not about, they weren't saying wait until you get married until after you can make a living, but really make sure you build that so you can support your family and stuff because I know you want that for you. So yeah, my wife wasn't even on my radar remotely at that time. You know, but I just remember literally sitting there and like going, God, please bring somebody to pay me to write songs so I don't have to sit in the studio by myself all the time. Literally. I mean, that was like this. I said it out loud like that. I guess it was a prayer, but it just felt like almost exasperation, even someone who doesn't share my faith going, God, please bring someone, you know, like that. And that's what it felt like. And sure enough, I started talking to a buddy of mine. This guy Greg Becker, who's a writer in Nashville. And I'd written with him. And we were just buddies. And I was just talking to him going, man, I'm so, you know, and he goes you should start coming to Nashville

I'll hook you up with co-writes man and I was like what? So I flew out there on my own dime and it was like two weeks at a time and he would hook me up with people like recently Grammy award winning Dennis Bikowski and Daryl Brown and those like classic big time riders as well as

a then unknown Jaron Johnston for example and we would all just get together and Greg and myself and a third writer and we'd write songs Why would they write with you? Because he vouched for me and then and then by the way that's something interesting about Nashville just as an aside here my experience with pop has been obviously with your friends it's cool but it's usually like well what

have you done lately let's look at the charts and and I understand the value of that right but then country tends to be are you cool and are you talented because if you are you're in not that you get any right but the barrier entry is kind of lowered if you are both of those things you know well and it also it's what allows writers to last longer there is because no one cares about what's going on right now for you. It's more about, you know, if you're a 60 and you're dope, like come and hang. Yeah, or a kid who hasn't have any cuts, but is, you know, a really talented person or whatever. So Greg also graciously introduced me to several business people, three people,

one of whom is now one of my publishers. At the time, he was a manager, another person who was an in-house A&R for a producer, and then Daryl Franklin, who was Dan Huff's in-house A-NR, and they had a company they were starting with a publishing company. They were starting with a company called Cross Town. And they were going to be their Nashville office. And so Darrell reached out and was like, yo, I want to sign you to a pub deal.

It was like a few months after going to Nashville. And I was like, I was like trying to play it cool. Like, yeah, cool. Let's, you know, yeah, you know, whatever. You'd had publishing deals. One. But it was. But you'd had a publishing deal.

And even not worse, but more so. Yeah. If you have one publishing deal and it doesn't go exactly how you had plan, you know, and it doesn't matter how big you are if someone's like I'm going to do a publishing deal. You're like, okay, what's the catch? Totally. And it was, one day I just had to wake up and go,

why am I even thinking twice about this? I want to be writing songs. I have one of the biggest producers there is at the time, and still, actually, he's having more hits now than ever, wanting me through his partner to sign me to do the thing I literally was praying about six months ago, you know? And so I sign with those guys, and I mean, it's a long story,

but it's been their belief in me and their investment in me. It was paramount. Yeah, and to watch Dan Huff at that point, point, you know, really, I mean, it's been his prime of his career for 20 years, it feels like, but, you know, that's a good time to sign to him. Totally. I was going to make a comment when you were saying how, you know, getting paid to produce an album even that's not signed for $20,000.

That was, that's how a lot of people make a living in this business. And I think I had a producer in 2004, say, that is the music industry that there's this concept of someday I'll get there or that I'm already there's this idea of the music industry being unattainable

and what you don't realize is that when you are 25 and you're getting paid to make music that that is some part of the music industry you know it's like if you are working at a gas station you are part of the petroleum industry it's like saying that America is only the CEOs or the people Yeah, it's a weird thing. Just

because you're not writing songs that are being currently played on radio doesn't mean that you're not part of the music industry. Totally. If there's money being exchanged for music, you are working. 100%. And I think some people forget that in some level. So I'd want to make that comment. Totally. The other thing is

David Stam says to you in 2000 or so, are you even listening to the radio? Here, you're you're talking about a publishing deal, going to Nashville, are you listening to the radio at that point? I started to, yeah, for sure. What were you listening to? Were you listening to both country and pop?

Yeah, all of it. Some of it actually, I didn't stop playing trombone for financial reasons. There was other reasons, but it was also a pragmatic view of going, where is this leading me, and is this the path? I want to be on, excuse me. The impetus wasn't those things, but that was part of the conversation. Similarly, when I pursued this opportunity to ride in Nashville, I was following a thread that was like unraveling to me.

But I also remember taking a moment and looking at iTunes, which was newish at that time, looking at the top 10 at iTunes and going, okay, pop, look at that category. If you're not, you know, Luke or Max, you're not getting the single on Ava Levine, Britney Spears, Pink, any of those artists, even if I were to get on those apps, albums, even at a time where that still kind of meant something, I knew I wasn't going to get the

single because they were the names and they got all the singles, right? And then you look at urban music at the time, which was like the other half of the top ten. And it wasn't like we know urban music now where, you know, my house is basically a pop song that's a rap song or whatever, or even if it's very urban, they're melodic, even that's changing now. But then it was like, there was no melody in urban music, which it was rad. It was just not what I do. So I'm going like, I don't know where I would fit in that, even though I love popular music. And then I click over to this other category called country and it was like keith urban and rascal flats and some faith hill stuff and like just songs and i was like oh i stuff that i could sit at the piano and sing and potentially

write i was like i love that i don't i mean and i've never in i've never tried to be something i'm not in country i didn't go there and be like let's talk about trucks i don't own truck you know and even though my dad is like more redneck and his people are than almost literally anyone i've met in country music or anything. That's not who I am specifically. So even though it's in my periphery I've never tried to front about what I am lyrically, you know. What year did you sign with then?

January of 07, but then it was, we had started working together in June of 06, so that we pre-dated it, whatever. So it still took you a couple years before you started getting kind of meaningful cuts, right? Well, I got a cut within the first year with Rascal Flats, which was a big deal.

I didn't realize it was that early. Yeah. It was about near the end of the first year. And it was kind of an interesting thing. And this is something I've always respected. That was more, that wasn't any, that wasn't a single though, right? No, it was called Better Now. And then my first single happened three years in with those guys, also Rascal Flats. And as an aside, that I got that news that I had the single as I was driving up to the Bay Area with my then-girlfriend, soon-to-be-fiance, now wife, to introduce her to my parents. I got the call on the five that you got the next Rascal Flats single, which,

was a big bit of news going into being married three months later. Did you yell? I didn't yell. I don't tend to yell too much, but I was really excited for sure. Yeah. It was just amazing. And it was especially, and not to slight, Darrell, we never know. But I remember because I had four songs that they were looking at.

And he was like, you know, that song Summer Nights, that's not going to be on the album. But, you know, that was the only one that was on the album. And then I remember asking him, like, do you think I stand a chance to have a single? He's like, nah, man, it's not going to be a single. And it was the second single. You know, the point is we never know. Like, you know, we're all guessing. why don't we know

like why is it that it's so difficult for people to just say hey this is the rollout and these are the singles well I shouldn't say we never know there have been a few times when I think it's pretty damn clear for me but even with that we're still guessing everything we're doing is guessing we're going to get together I'm out of song here a minute we're going to guess

what the best type of song can be for that moment and then we will collectively guess with our publishers who's the best artist to cut it and then they will collectively guess with that batch of songs which one's going to be the biggest single and then Spotify will guess if we're going to put it on New Music Friday

is it going to be the one or the five or the ten that's actually going to be around past the first couple weeks? It's crazy again not to scare the listeners but there's so many hoops that we have to jump through as you guys so well know you know. Yeah that's where the journey is probably

more important. Totally. You know than the goal. But okay so 2009 comes along and this is you know while we're getting to the the Rascal Flats single, you have summer nights or summer night. And that, you know, it's basically the same time that you have your first pop success, because you have bad boys for Alexander Burke with Flowrider, which was number one in the UK.

So you end up with a number one song in pop and a number one song, or number two song in country. That's really funny that you still remember that. Well, the reason I remember that specifically is because Jay, the bass player, of the band who's a brilliant human being he's also one of the funniest people I've ever met my life he made a point to tell me which at the time I was like don't I mean I was such a new young writer I didn't want to know that

because it was like we only missed it by 19 spins but I'll never forget because he actually told me I wasn't following it that closely at the time now of course I have spreadsheets and flowcharts and I'm just kidding no I don't I do watch it I mean there's that thing where you don't want to I mean go as far back as you want but you don't want to number 41

You don't want a number 11 You don't want a number 6 Yeah You don't want a number 4 Try was number 6 Try was number 6 At 5 top 40 Yeah but it was also number 1 at

Hot A C and AC So I mean like Charts are shocking Because I don't You know Once you get a song in top 40 You know You just

You watch it You can't help but watch it I mean I don't I'm sure a lot of people do Daily stocks Yeah And when you do daily stocks You watch it

You don't watch your portfolio, your 401k. Nobody does that. Yeah. Well, maybe. Well, it's pretty boring. It's pretty boring because those are really steady. But like when you're, it's gambling on some level. And I hated it.

I remember right. My first cut was with, well, first single was with a band called Honor Society. Who was opening for the Jonas Brothers. Yep. I feel like I remember that. Yeah. And I went into a session where John, Fields who was producing Jonas Brothers

had said, he goes well, you know, they're all lottery tickets. And I was like, oh man, that's so incredibly offensive. Like, this is music. And this is somebody's career. Yeah. And as you go, you're like every part of it

is a lottery ticket. Totally. You know, there's just no, you know, when you get a song that gets released, like summer nights, right? Yeah. But okay, no, you finish the song. Yeah. It's like you walked into seven 11 and you got a lottery ticket. You have won out of like, let's say,

a hundred songs that they're choosing from, which is a fairly good lottery odds. Well, to be fair, yes, there is. I want to add a little bit to that story, which is it does matter. You have ways to improve your odds, meaning in that particular case, we happened to write that song with the lead singer,

which didn't mean for sure they were going to cut it, but it removed, it didn't give us any assurance, but it removed some barriers, meaning often the lead singer if there's a group has more of a vote simply because they have to sing it. So if they don't want to sing it, what do you need to do, make them sing it? You know what I mean? So in this case, he was part of the writing. So we knew his voice sounded good on it.

He liked what we were saying. He helped shape the lyric specific, you know, what he wanted to say, all that stuff. So it helped our odds substantially. It's a little bit of a rigged lottery. Yeah, but still. But it's a lottery. Dude, yeah. I mean, but even when it's released, like in one of the odds,

of the good parts of Spotify is it's sort of the democratization of music so at some point like you know uh you do once it's out there you have no choice totally yeah you can push songs to radio yeah but if the audience doesn't want to hear it they just won't yeah they just won't hear it totally enough people change the radio station like that song stops getting played yeah there in there is a thing that happens in country where like i'm in that right now i have a song in the top, it's bounced around top five-ish right now. And, you know, I'm privy to what's going on because I'm very involved with,

I produced the album, and I know the management. And so they're, like, telling us, here's the numbers, and we're going to go for a big push at this time. And there are things you can do, at least at that chart, to really affect its success in that regard. And to be fair, it is a chart system. Country music cares a lot about number ones. Like, we do, too, obviously, pop and everything,

but it's like a it's like the be all end all and you know the parties support all that which is amazing that they do that there's a good reason why and i think you should explain why because this is this is interesting yeah country radio there's i believe in pop last year i think there were 30 number one songs or maybe 20 something number one songs so because songs can last two three four weeks sometimes they can last 14 weeks or something like that at number one versus country where it's almost a weekly turnover. These days it basically is. Sometimes you get two weeks, three weeks. Sometimes you can have more than that.

Explain why that turnover happens. Well, I mean, I'd be curious what your theory is, but as I understand it, they're not selling more records if it's a number three or number one usually. So it's more about being able to say, well, the artist has had this many number ones or the labels had this many number ones.

and it is this sort of like backroom situation not in a shady way per se but like the kind of push they make their plan it's almost like if we were playing rugby and we go okay there's the opening and this week we're going to go for it and we just push all of our guys and we try to get the song into the number one slot and I just got an email this morning it's like well this song has this many ads or extra spins

and they're up with this audience and we're going to find the hole here I mean the strategy around is insane you know but I mean what is your take on why Well, I think most labels now have some sort of interest in touring. Yeah. So if in any sort of 360 situation, if your artist has a number one versus a number two that may help them get further along and getting an opening slot, maybe it allows them to headline a bigger room because those statistics help the touring, which then helps the merchandise. and those things are where a lot of labels are making some serious money. So I think that there's some sort of concerted effort amongst Nashville labels

to make sure that they rotate and that they're not wasting money fighting each other. I do think that there must be some conversation that goes on in order to, I know that sometimes there's a battle for which one goes number one for how long. but I have this feeling, especially if there are two artists on the same label, that they're better off having each one get a number one for one week than have one of them get number one for two weeks and the other one not get there.

So I think that there's some logic for labels to try to get... Yeah, and I think it doesn't translate to more sales usually. Yeah, it's not a record sale. But I'm just saying in the sense of for them to spend the time and energy to get a multi-week number one, that's not going to translate to more sales like what's the point you know and it's actually as a total related but unrelated

aside I had one of the head of the labels told me that he makes 90% they make 90% of the money they're going to make from a record cycle in the first 12 months so country singles unless you're a big artist they can take you know six months to get up the charts sometimes sometimes a year you know you know three months up and down

if it's a fast type of song But if you think about it, you're putting out between two and four singles in a year, usually not four, three at most. And then if the artist wants to put out a fourth or fifth or six single, especially if it's some big artist and they just want to do that thing because they know they can get the number one and whatever. Like the label's losing money at that point because you've made your pie, you still got to spend the money to promote it. And yet you're not getting any new money. And it's an interesting conundrum. And it's part of the much larger conversation. If I'm, you know, I mean, Kenny Chesney right now, I think he's renegotiating his label deal.

situation. If I'm someone like that, why would I not own as much of it as I can and then spend what I want to spend to get to get because my primary business would be touring? It's like the record part matters and they can make money doing that. But it's like... Will the country market follow the pop market as far as you see pop artists even at a high level starting to avoid putting out albums because of it being a singles thing? But traditionally what makes country music great are the albums. The album cuts are what make great country records. I think something that helps that maybe not happening in a practical sense is that

if you were to compare apples to apples and let's say Lady Gaga's last album, how much did that cost? I mean, we'd be guessing, but a million bucks at least, I would imagine. Maybe two million? Who knows? Five bucks, how often? But when I say how much it costs to pay, Mark Ronson, and blood pop, right, and all those people

and record the way she wants to, which is probably the best studios for multiple lengths of time and all that stuff. And not to say that country doesn't record in a great way, it does, but unless you're trying it multiple times before you find the right producer, I mean, if you find the right person and make the album start to finish,

it's just a lot more affordable. I mean, you can make a country album for a few hundred thousand dollars on the high end, usually, because of the process. And so there's less of a barrier or entry just in the actual making of it, you know. And there is still something about albums. They just, I mean, definitely people are making EPs and all that kind of stuff,

but there's something about those albums, you know. Once you get into writing, you know, you have a successful pop record, a successful country record. You're kind of, it's sort of like the coming out party for you, you know, in 2009. And then 2010, you have your first, like, number one country record with Lady A. Do you start feeling like you can do that? anything as far as country pop or are you starting to feel like maybe you should

focus on country? Are you feeling like you know you have a number one song in the UK? Are you traveling to London a lot? Well, I was going to London a lot around that time because I was previously engaged to an English girl. So that's... And we actually wrote that top line. I co-wrote the top line of that song,

Bad Boys. That was written in a car driving from my then house in Laurel Canyon out to Malibu with two of my friends. So, but I've had this, I hope I'm answering your question when I say this, because someone has asked me a very different version of that now because there's kind of a run happening right now in country. And so a lot of people are like, are you just going to Nashville all the time?

And it's like, no, I really believe in the concept of sowing seeds. You know, it's like I don't just go, cool, this part of the harvest is rocking, so I'm only going to pay attention to that. It's like, no, I tried to attend to that for sure, but I keep planting the seeds in this area because you never know what's going to happen and where. And of course you can't spread yourself too thin. You've got to stay focused.

But I do live in Los Angeles full time, and I travel to Nashville on a regular basis. So there's definitely the opportunity to do both, you know. And so I just try to feed both of them. There was never this like, oh my gosh, I just got to do this one and I got to do that one. And so many of the songs, too, have been just random, like we're getting there,

but try writing for my band project or something. You know, it's like. Let's go ahead and tell that story. So Pink Try comes out. you know 2012 and that's got to be the real game changer not that the other ones before but i mean it's a game changer that's a worldwide song you know that was a with a with the iconic artist which i hadn't had that to this point in that level but um yeah i was i had woken up with that chorus in my head and um grabbed my phone and worked on a little bit and

five minutes i had it just in my phone i was like it's never happened before since and then i called my buddy ben and i was like or email it to him i was like what do you think of this and he's like I love it. I was like, let's do this for our band project. We were doing a film and TV sort of, when I say band project, I'm doing air quotes. It had a name, it had a brand, but we weren't touring, we weren't a real band. It's just like, let's write songs and pitch them to film and TV.

Just really because I love this guy, I love creating with him, let's see if we can monetize having fun. You know what I mean? So we left that as the fourth song of the week to write. So I flew in on Monday. We wrote Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. We knew we could work on that chorus. try and I had my buddy come in from

Indiana who I knew from the Bay Area and he actually filmed us the whole time we were riding it just because we wanted to have content and I knew that we already had some of an ace in the hole in the sense of getting a song done for sure that day because we already had a chorus and we just wrote it and it all felt the whole

honestly the whole time it just felt like just felt effortless and it felt inspiring and then I got up to sing it into an SM7 to our earlier conversation and I just I kept wanting to sing it 20, 34, literally probably 30-something times I sang it top to tail just because I didn't want

to stop singing it. And we had it probably in like the third or fourth take or something, you know, and it was just like, I mean, I was literally like crying, you know, I felt like that song was speaking to me. So then we handed into the publisher and, you know, I wasn't, even though I had written hit songs, I wasn't sitting there thinking, I'm writing hit song.

I was just like, this makes me feel stuff. And we sent it to the publisher and there's this guy Thomas Shear, who's part of BMG. He would, his role has always been like sort of roaming. He's now based in LA, but he would just pop up his head and be like, I'm in Korea right now and the Korean office is listening to it. I was just in Berlin and it was walking down the hallway and four different offices were playing that song, that kind of thing. And you're just like, what a trip. It was just

speaking to that many people. So Susan Koch, who's a wonderful publisher, was my publisher at that time at BMG and she sent it to Rainey Hancock. And Rainey was the champion inside the label system for that. And she brought it to a big meeting. And we had, actually tried to cut it on another artist who's a great artist but it wasn't the right fit and we tried multiple times and i had to call rainy and go you know what i'm not doing sometimes you know history i've at least heard stories of people going i'm going to pull my song and then they're like oh we'll make it the first single okay you can have it it's not it wasn't that i was literally just going i care so much about the song i wanted to resonate and be right and this isn't the right

version so i need to pull it and she was like well can i just keep it and play it for pink i was like yeah because Pink was literally one of three artists I thought could sing it because originally had like a two octave range and my version I went up the octave into my falsetto in the last chorus and it was, you know, the range wise it was Pink Beyonce

and Christine Aguilera and Pink was the one I was like that would be amazing for her to sing it. Her voice in the studio we were recording her I don't know maybe like six months ago or something like that and we were I think I turned to the engineer

was like can you turn down the auto tune and he was like we don't have a little auto tune on. Oh, it's crazy. I was like, wait, are you kidding? Because, like, her accuracy is bananas. I was like, well, we should listen to it dry so we can get a good gauge on what's going because she sounds really good. And it's like, we don't have anything on that. That's the first, that's one of those moments where you're like, wow, I don't know anything. Think about it, though, she was a legitimate star before Autotune was a thing. And she's still like in her 30s,

It's like crazy. And as an aside, Greg Kirsten actually produced Try, and he told me that the vocal that's on the radio is her first pass. He took a second pass to be safe, but that was her first pass. And it just speaks to what kind of an artist she is.

She didn't write that song, but she so felt it and embodied it and took the time to make it her own before she even got there to sing it. It wasn't like, cool, I really liked that song. You guys got the lyrics? It was like, It was as though she wrote it and got up and sang her ass off, you know.

I just want to keep being friends with her. More than anything that hanging out with her is the best. So you kind of have this, I don't want to say, lull, you have some songs come out, but between Try and what becomes the beginning of this run that you're currently on, there's less, like, hits. We've had a lot of conversations about envy in this business. and sort of the chase and the like the looking at what other people are doing

and how do you get better and what are you missing how do you deal with lulls? Try to try to stay sane in a sort of a spiritual sense and I think you know where I'm coming from when I say that but I mean on the broadest sense you know in a real deep way trying to remind yourself of what really matters and not just getting caught up in defining yourself by the success of your career. And you could say that to anybody, a CEO of a pencil company, a teacher, whoever, we can be defined by our careers.

And it's very difficult, especially for those of us who are the wares that we are selling are things that we made up ourselves and don't tangibly physically exist. So we're basically selling our ideas, which then are us. We're selling ourselves. And it's hard to then look at that and go, but I'm not my songs. I really am not. Even though I poured myself into them, I'm not defined by who I am as a songwriter. I'm defined by who I am as a human being and a husband and a father and a friend. And I know it sounds cheesy, but that's the deal, man.

It's like huge. And I mean, to your point, man, the envy thing is super real. Because like... Why do you get envious? I don't know. I mean, it's... Envious isn't the word. Why are you so competitive?

Well, that's the tricky part. I think most of us are where we are because we're competitive. But yet we have to somehow turn it off at the right times, if that makes sense. Like, it's not that I don't want you guys to win at all, but I want to win. And not necessarily beat you, but I want to win. And so... It's like it's more of like a golfer. Yeah.

It says that you play your best round and you just want to win. But if you don't, it's because you don't. I'm not a big golfer, but I think there's a couple hundred people on the tour or something. Imagine being number 199 on the tour time and again. And you're like one of the best golfers in the world, but no one mentions your name. You don't have the big endorsements. You're maybe making a few hundred thousand a year, which is pretty good living to most people, but compared to all the people you're around, it's the tricky thing about.

Like if we were to, if we could be, have the success that we're able to have when you have hits and you're making money in your normal life context, you'd be like stoked. But you're surrounded by all of the other thing, the glitz and the glam and the someone who has the more. And there's, because there's always more. There really is. And it's like, we all know it's true that money can't buy you happiness. There's no, one of my favorite quotes, there's no there. Like you're not going to get to that place and go. Like if I could go back in time and say to you, Ross, in 10 years,

Here's what your life's going to look like. This is your wife. She's awesome. She's beautiful. Look at her. She's going to be your wife. You're going to own this house. You're going to have these hits.

You're going to have this much money in the bank. You're going to have these people signed to you. All those things. Your head would explode. But it happened over time. I'm always like it's not at all what I expected, but it's exactly what I aimed for. Totally. You know?

Yeah. And if you're always, because to be successful as a freelancer, you're always sort of reaching for the carrot, right? but the carrot never it's always there it's always out in front of you you're always going so it's this balance of having to go you know um it's not i have enough but just being grateful for what i have because if i when i stop and turn around and look at where i came from versus standing where i normally stand and looking at what i don't have yet or i'd love to achieve i don't mean have necessarily in stuff way but like achieving more things when i stop and turn around and look at what i where i've come from

that's when I have perspective and go, dude, I mean, we're sitting in a room right now. All of us are paid to write music. We all own property. We all have wives. We're sitting in our buddy's house

that was paid for by music. We're making an interview that's going to go out into the world and generate knowledge and money. It's crazy, man. Like literally, like what are we doing? This is insane. But yet the tendency is,

I have the mountain, but I want that little hill over there too Why can I have that? I don't own all of the mountain mountain. Or I don't own the mountain range. Yeah, exactly. You know, and it's just, I don't know, man. I said to my buddy one time, who's a painter, a fine artist,

and I said, man, sometimes our business can be such like high school. And he was like, well, it's like high school where he show up every day and tacked at the front of the school is the list of who's the most popular in one order. Like an actual list, aka the charts. Wow. And it was like, oh, my. my gosh because when you go to high school you know intrinsically who's popular but there's not literally like an order and you're looking for your name and you're going like oh i'm 249th out of 250

but last week i was number 10 and two years from now i'll be number one for four weeks right so who i don't know man right i mean that's where having so many charts is useful because a lot of people can get you know if if you know if a podcast does well on a chart yeah then that's something that you can be like, oh, nice, you know, that's working right now. Totally. Or if your song's number one at AC, you know, or, you know, adult urban radio

with your smaller charts. But like, if it does that, then, you know, you're still at the top of a chart, you know? It's not that those things are bad. It's just the managing of them because it's very, it's like fame, man. That's not natural to being a human. Fame is like the opposite of what's natural.

So us dealing with this type of stuff is the opposite of what. it's natural. And I think the envy thing is such or jealousy I think is really a way that I've always thought about it. And when you come down to it, it's like if you're looking at somebody else, I can say this for sure for the three of us sitting in this room. If you're looking at somebody else going, I wish I had whatever,

well, there's people looking at you going, I wish I wrote one of the biggest country songs of all time or had a dangerous woman or try. There's always somebody looking at you going, I would kill to be Ross Golan and you're going, man, I want to be Jimmy Iveen and Jimmy Iveen wants to be Bono and Bono wants to be Mother Teresa and Mother Teresa wants to be Jesus and Jesus wants to be his dad and you know what I mean? Or he is his dad, but I'm being silly, but it's, we potentially all have the ability to want something we don't have.

Just to go through some of these because I'll ask you a little bit about them as humans later, but you know, Marin Morris comes out and just blows up the charts nominated for Best New Artist. and you're her main collaborator. Holy comes out for Florida Georgia line, ends up competing with Die Happy Man. Never heard of it. As one of the biggest songs of the year, you know. Just a massive record.

You end up with, you know, the fighter, which is, I said to Keith there have been a couple weeks ago. I was like, that song is, it easily gives a pop record, too. I mean, it's really interesting. It's like it's a, there's some rhythms in that chorus that are not heard in most country records. And Keith is not a normal country artist. We both love new radicals.

That's where that came from, I think. Oh, there you go. You know, you end up with more Mary Morris songs, more Keith Urban songs. You know, you end up starting to work on producing the whole Lady Annabellem album. You end up doing so much stuff that Lauren Elena song goes number one. You have, I mean, the list of what's been going on lately, how do you not just say I'm a country?

Like, why not, why not? That's not just like a door opening. No, totally. That's like, you know, an epic two years. Like, hold on epic two years. And you're still writing, whatever you want to write. Totally.

Why not just say, you know what? I'm going to move to Nashville. Yeah, thanks, L.A. Great time. I've had some success here. Love L.A., but... Yeah. I mean, trust me, we've thought about it.

For sure, you can't not. You know, it's like when you're in two different contexts, continually, you're forced to sort of compare them effectively. And on a strictly financial level, it'd be a no-brainer. I mean, the house we just bought

and are moving to next week, in LA would probably cost a third of that in Nashville and there's no income tax and you know blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I was going to say there's no traffic, but that's not true. Not anymore. But, you know, there's a lot of reasons, but oddly, a lot of it comes back to quality of life. Like, I'm not saying Nashville isn't a quality of life. And most people would say I'm moving to Nashville for better quality of life.

But my wife and my version of L.A. is the kind of quality life we want. We're part of this little church out in Pasadena that are just like some of the years people I've ever met my life. And we want to continue to be a part of that in that community. I still love the amazing challenge of I'm going to try to write a top 40 hit and try to write a country hit and try to produce all of those. Like it's not it's not like a lost cause at this point. At a certain point it might be like a moot point kind of going, I don't really stand a chance to do that. Maybe 10, 15 years. I don't know. But for now it's still a viable option, you know. And we love the quality of life in California. We love the version of that.

live and we want to be here first and foremost. And the hard part of that, quite frankly, is when I look at it, it's like I'm basically signing up for probably however long we stay in L.A., which I'd love to stay here forever. But as long as I'm an active country writer, I'm traveling back and forth all the time. And I have soon to be three little kids. And it's tricky. My wife has been very gracious and very supportive. And she gets it. But it creates, you know, practical challenges. And it's, but it's, I kind of look at it and go, well, if I move there, I, I, I, I, I, I, I'm looking at it going, I've seen that it's very difficult for a writer to be based in Nashville and have substantial pop success.

It's not out of the question, but it's really difficult. It's seemingly less difficult for a writer to be based in L.A. and go to Nashville and stand a chance. A lot of that comes down to the practicality of things and the structure there. You know, they'll show up at 10 o'clock and everyone's got an idea and you can be out by four and cancellations are less frequent and all those types of things. So there's a million reasons, and at some point we may go, we're doing it, but we've thought about it probably two or three times in the last 10 years, and it's just never made sense to us.

We're going to go to the next section. Yeah. Have you titled it yet? No, we still have no title. The untitled section. So you listen to the podcast. I'm a huge fan. I'm going to listen to five people.

I'm going to list five people. And you can kind of go into what's been going on with these people in the process. But let's start with Marin Morris. Marin Morris Jeez man I don't even know where to start I remember when I first heard her sing It was like I felt like

I wasn't there when Cheryl started Or Adele started whoever But it felt like this is what that must have felt like When you heard one of those great voices For the first time It was in my friend's house And I just knew I had to be part of it And it's a long story

But that was thankfully I was able to be a part of it You know And she were in the process of making Her second record It's still early But she's got some great sons songs. She's a fierce singer, a fierce writer, you know. Lady Annabellum.

I just think of a big hug. They're all buddies. You know, they're some of the most talented people. I told Charles the other day, I said, you guys are like the most, like, rock star or not rock stars ever. Meaning they totally play the part in their stars and they do your thing, but they're also just the most wonderful down-earth people ever, you know. And I was thankful to have my first country. your number one with them. And then now years later, they reached out and were like, hey, do you want to produce an album

for us? And that was just like, it was a blast. We just hung out having fun, truly. I mean, we recorded it in my buddy's house in Toluca Lake, the first eight songs. It's got a pool. We were all just hanging, writing, making music. It was chill, man. They're some of the best.

And they have a great camp. Their whole team is just insane. Carly Pierce. Jeez. Congratulations on her release. Thank you. And to her, it's today, it's announced. Congrats, Carly.

She is such a classic. She's like the archetype of don't give up. Meaning she moved to Nashville when she was 18. When my publisher, Daniel Lee, shout out to Daniel Lee, who's a brilliant publisher, found her, brought her to me and was like, you should develop this girl. And I was like, at the time,

this was prior to even the girl activity that's happening right now, which, by the way, as we speak, the only solo female on top 20 country is Carly. But as we know over the last several years, it's opened up a lot more and there are more females. But this was before all of the resurgence of female artists. And so I was like, man, really? Like we're going to sign a girl the first time out?

And I hate to say that, but statistically, 89% of the artists at country radio that work are male. I don't like that, but it is what it is. So I just ultimately was like, I believe in the voice. in the work ethic. I believe in the human being who is Carly Pierce and I'm not going to lie and

say, I always knew, I believed it could happen, but you don't know how it's going to happen and it's beyond anything we could have expected, like beyond expectations. Carly and Marin and Lady A and Lauren, you're really at sort of the

epicenter of these females who are finally getting the credit that they're due. Why is that happening now? I don't know, man. I really wish I could put my finger on it, but it's just, I mean, I just, for me, it wasn't like I was seeking that out. It was just literally like, I was writing with Lauren one day, and she goes, you know, when I produce a vocal, I tend to sort of push the vocalist a little bit, try to get something out of them. And with her, because she's

such a great singer, she was like, no one would ever push me. They just were like, oh, that's awesome. And like, to me, it's like, well, yeah, of course it's awesome, but it's 90%. Let's get 105%, you know. And so that literally turned into her asked me to produce her album. I wasn't pursuing it. And then Marin happened to be at my friend's house at a ride around long story and heard her sing

and was like, oh my gosh. And Lady A, they reached out out of the blue even though they're friends. I was hoping we'd still write together, but I didn't know they'd reach out. And Carly, that obviously we chose, but she was just the one that came down on the pike that we really thought was special, you know. And by the way, so she's like about 25 now. So she's been

in Nashville for seven years and like had multiple development deals, labels have passed on her two and three times. And I didn't realize all that when we signed her. I was just like, she's dope and we want to be involved. And the point of it being, especially in that town, but in general, if the music is right and the time is right, then it can really work, you know. No doubt. Your watch collection.

Oh, man. I wish I could sell a lot of those at this point. Quite frankly, my advice would be to young writers who get a hit. and or a catalog sale and feel like starting a watch collection, don't do it. I'll eventually get my money out. But no, I have a fond memory of all of those watches. And not to get heavy, but I remember when I bought the first one, it was like a Rolex Explorer 2.

It was like $7,500. And I went to a session an hour after I bought it with Steve Mack in London. And it was like, it was felt as though literally I had $7,500 sitting on my wrist, you know. And it was like the most, oh my gosh. and now it's like not all of them are that expensive but I have multiple watches

and they just kind of sit in the drawer and you're like the allure is gone and it's like it's never enough really it really the it unless you want it to be

and you decide so now I basically wear one of them and over time also the other's off and you know I mean we talk about that the idea of 20% more is what people think

makes them happy so everyone's looking for the 20% that don't currently have and that's out wanting the hill. Totally. You know, it's the wanting the nicer watch, the 20% bigger space, 20%, you're angry that

you missed by 16 spins. 19. 19 spins. Dyslexic. It's upside down. You know, but the idea of 20% being what's going to make you happy. But the joke of it is that had you had 20 spins and it was only there for one week, you'd be like, oh, man, if it was only there for two weeks.

Totally. And it's so hard to just deal with. And I think harder in that we don't necessarily It's not that we're to get rid of that drive Or desire, it's the management of it, right? Because again, I believe that that's part of what fuels

the necessary almost insanity to show up and think we could do this. But it's the management of it, you know? Last person. God. It was our first conversation, dude. We got in there, we started writing like whatever it's on, we spent probably two and a half hours talking about

religion. Totally. I remember that. You know. Yeah. It's funny, man, because we had this eclipse yesterday. Uh-huh. And I was here in L.A., not in Nashville. We'd left Nashville on Saturday. But I saw video footage of how intense it was. And friends

who were there going, whoa, dude. And in the grander scheme of things, that was like a very insignificant little activity of nature. And to me, what that reminds me of, of how is how big God is and how little we are. And yet, you know, I believe he cares about all the details of our lives, you know, and allows us to know him and have relationship with him.

And it's, my relationship with God is really huge part of why I'm a sane person, you know, versus just letting all this stuff we're talking about fully eat me up, you know. And, you know, it's not without, I was raised in the church, I had to go through my own process of like is this real is do we do we is this real because i believe it's real or is it because real because my mom and dad would drag me off the church you know and i had to go through that process of like experiencing my relationship with god singularly you know and i came to the in my mind there's no doubt there is a god there is a creator you know i believe what the bible says but i'm also totally o'coo with you not believing it or whoever because none of us can prove any of it so why would

I like not be okay with that you know but I know to me it's as real as anything like really it's not some funny fairy tale like to talk about I mean I've experienced God in my life you know the long conversation which we could obviously no we could we could obviously talk for hours yeah and you and I always do by the way to be clear I'm not saying you don't believe in God I'm just saying whoever if they if somebody has a different belief structure I totally am I'm going like tell me about it like whatever because the hilarious it always weirds me out that people will literally like violently, literally, argue, so to speak, about what they believe in a context that they can't prove, right?

Like, we can't, if you believe there's a God, you can't actually prove it, it requires faith. If you believe there's not a God, like Eric Valentine's a self-proclaimed atheist, and he believes that just as intensely as I believe there's a God. But neither one of us can prove it. Like, what happens after you die? We will never know until we experience it. You know, I'll be dying going, see, I told you there's a God, or, Oh shit, you know.

Right. Who knows? Right. What's some advice you'd give a new writer? Let's say the writer who wants to write in both country and in pop. What do you give that guy? What's advice you give that guy? In a very practical way, practical sense.

Country is first and foremost driven by the lyric. All the other stuff matters, but it's lyrically driven. and I would say production was probably be third on the list maybe like lyric melody production and obviously these are generalizations

pop being melody production lyric as a generalization not in the sense of what's actually important but what the listeners listening to what people are resonating with and write what you know I think that's been a huge thing for me I haven't like I don't go into a pop

session be like, yo, let's write about the club. I don't like going to clubs. You don't write about clubs, and you don't write about dirt roads. Totally. Both those things make you sound like you're trying. If I'm in a room and I can play a piano riff or something that becomes part of like, you know, two chains next, whatever, but I'm not seeking that out, you know. Or if I'm in a room and they want to write a dirt road song, as long as they're writing

the lyric primarily or I'm following them, it can work. bring something musically but in the broadest sense i think it's um be really good to people and work super hard you know and don't don't presume anything there's no like there's no we don't deserve any of this like there's no you know just because i mean i i've been working at this for years man like years and years and years and eventually the hard work pays off and sometimes everyone's path is different sometimes somebody has i remember when i there was one person person in particular I was constantly jealous of. And long story short, and not that I want this for that person,

I haven't heard their name mentioned in the industry for years. But five, six, seven years ago, they were the dude doing all the thing and stuff that I wanted to be doing. And it's like, and they dip their toe in the country world in ways that I was jealous of. So again, not that I want that person to fail. I want everybody to thrive, but you just don't know everyone's path. It's always different. You just got to do you, you know.

Be the best you that ever was. There will never be a better Roskolan than you can be Roskolan. I appreciate that. Well, that brings me to the end, which is one, thank you for doing this. Thank you guys. No, thank you guys for doing this at large. It is such an amazing resource. I appreciate that you guys do it.

Well, we're trying to shed a light on who the humans are involved, and I just want to tell a story. I know that you didn't do this for any sort of, like, probably, I don't know if you even want me to tell this story. But I've had a long year with some health stuff in my family, and it was New Year's Eve. And you sent me a text. You just said, check outside your door. And you left a bottle of Dom outside of my door.

And it's so hard to explain how hard this year has been and how much I appreciate your support. You always check in. We always are texting. We're meeting and talking about music. we're meeting and talking about family but you often are doing the walk and that is so incredibly

appreciated and I love you and thank you for doing this. Thank you I love you too man thanks for listening to this episode of and the writer is if you want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed be sure to check out our Spotify playlist or visit our website

and The Writer Is.com. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe to us on iTunes. You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter. And The Writer Is is produced by Joe London, edited by Miles Berg'sma, and published by Big Deal Music. A special thanks to David Silberstein from Mega House Music and Michael White. On next episode, we sit down with Mozilla. Until next time, this is Ross Bowling. Thank you.