And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 41: Mozella

Episode Date: May 14, 2018

This Detroit born songwriter and artist is one of the most sought after collaborators in the business. She is credited for writing some of Pop’s most influential hits such as Miley Cyrus’ #1 smash “Wrecking Ball”, One Direction’s chart topping “Perfect”, and Kelly Clarkson’s Grammy-nominated “Love So Soft.” In addition to an empire of notable songs featuring the likes of Rihanna, Ellie Goulding, Tinashe and Madonna, this writer has found her own success as a recording artist with three full length albums under her belt as well as her most recent single, “Anything Is Possible.” It is this multi-platinum writer’s mission to create honest music and lyrics that inspire human connections. It’s our pleasure to announce, And The Writer Is…MoZella! This episode is sponsored by Bandzoogle! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to Season 3 of And The Writer is I am your host, Ross Golan. I've written with hundreds of artists and writers over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life, the industry, politics, composition, whatever. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs, and most importantly, who the people are who write the songs. I'm producing this with the Great Joe London, big deal music publishing and mega house music management if you want to listen to the songs we

discuss in this podcast follow us on our socials find out about special events or buy some of our merchandise go to our website www. www.andthe writer is.com oh and if you enjoy this podcast please rate us on iTunes or whatever your preferred podcast listening site is we really appreciate that effort today's podcast is brought to you by bands Zougal. From weekend warriors to Grammy winners, Banzugal powers the website for tens of thousands of musicians around the world. So whether you're just starting out or looking for an affordable solution to build a new website and manage your direct-to-fan sales, you can use Banzhugl's simple tools to design a website and store that both you and your fans will love. Go to Banzhugle.com to try it free for 30 days. And be sure to use the promo code.

A-T-W-I. That's A-T-W-I to get 15% off the first year of your subscription. Welcome to And The Writer is. I'm your host, Ross Golan. This week's writer has written

some of those songs where you just say the title and you know it. Not like hits, but smashes. And in between writing those smashes, she's advocating for songwriters' rights. But don't forget that she started as an artist and knows the licensing game

as well as anyone we've had on this show. From Detroit, Michigan, this writer can work with everyone because everyone wants to work with her. And the writer is one of my closest friends in the music business, Maureen Mozilla McDonald. Hello, Ross.

Hi. Hello, Joe. So we were talking about how we should do the whole interview like this because we're both Midwesterners. And you're Midwest too, right? Oh, yeah, so Joe's Wisconsin. Oh, is you...

Yeah, I'm from Chicago. You're from Chicago, and I'm from... and from Michigan, so here we go, guys. What's your, what's your grocery store? Oh, Kroger. Yeah, Kroger and Farmer Jack for a while, but they went out of business. What did you guys have? Julasco.

Oh, yeah, and Dominics. And Joe had, had piggly wiggly. Oh, yeah. I can't believe that's the name. That's a horrible name for a grocery store. It's like, I don't want to buy my pork there. Is that weird? It's not where I would.

Yeah, it feels like that's where you don't buy pork. Or you don't buy your pork. I know. No offense. I mean, look, by the way, for all the people who shop at Piggly Wiggly and who enjoy pork products. Pork products. Don't let us stop you.

Yes. This is fantastic. I feel like, and that was the show. And here we go. And time's up. It's funny when we talk about grocery stories because I was thinking about how you and I are friends with a lot of Swedish writers and how they're all super reserved.

And you and I just happen to walk into these sessions. And we're just chatty and talking. talking and like where we just go hug everybody and and at first I thought they all hated me but they're just not they just don't they just don't stand in line in a grocery store and ask what you're cooking for dinner that's actually I've had a whole conversation about that because in Sweden because my boyfriend is Swedish and Ross is very one of his closest co-writers and friends is Swedish and they and my boyfriend and his co-writer happen to be like almost best friends so you can call him up in him yeah so what you're you're Peter

Carlson and Yon Carlson, not related. Not related. And they all work in the same crew of people. But yeah, if you go to Sweden, you have to turn your barcodes, you have to turn your barcodes to face the cashier because it's rude if you don't turn all your barcodes toward her. And then you wait in line quietly. And I'm from Michigan, and you're from Chicago, you know, from Illinois.

And it's like, oh, have you ever tried those nilla wafers? You know, you like ask people questions in line. And it's like, do you like that product? Is it good? The weather's great. It's like way different. But I think they're all, they all secretly love us. It's like there's a little vicarious living going on through the wild.

Well, I found out once I realized that, you know, they're all very nice. They just don't feel like it has to be all about them. And where I grew up, it was like, watch me with jazz hands walk down the street. It's like, here I am. We're very American, as they say. Right, yeah, exactly. Okay, so you're born and, you're born? Michigan. Are you born in Michigan?

Yeah, I was born just a couple miles outside the city. Okay. And grew up just about a mile outside Detroit. Did you come out of the womb singing? Yeah, pretty much. Really? Yeah, we have videos of me from like the time. I think my mom said I started talking at like five months. I don't know if that's early.

I think it's early. Yeah, I think that's early. So I've all, clearly I like to talk. But like, you know, it's always been, I like communication. So when did you, were you, do you remember the first songs you would sing when you were growing up? Yeah, like a lot of country weirdly. My dad was a farmer.

He grew up in northern Michigan in the thumb and he grew up on a farm. So we would go back to the farm on the weekends when I was a kid. And listen to like Willie Nelson and Crystal Gale and like all this way. Is that how they made a living? My dad's parents, yeah, my dad's parents were farmers

and his grandparents were farmers. They're all Irish and Polish immigrants. And my parents. My dad was left the farm at 17 and went to University of Detroit and got a law degree. So he stayed in the city. Yeah. Yeah. So did they play music?

No. Uh-uh. The only family member I had that played music was on my mom's side. Well, my mom and all her sisters sang in choral and high school and all that. But my mom's dad was from Chedinuget in Tennessee. And in the 1930s, he sang on the radio as a boy. Like for like on Sundays, he sang church songs for like a quarter or something. Did you meet them?

Yeah. Yeah. My dad's, my mom's dad kind of, we grew up just down the street from them. So he taught, he taught me how to sing when I was little. That's crazy. So did you, do you play piano too, though, right? I took piano lessons as a kid and I can kind of hack on the piano, but my main instrument's guitar. Yeah.

Who taught you that? When I was like 11 or 12, I decided I wanted to learn how to play, and I got a guitar and self-taught, and then I took lessons for like two years. What kind of music were you teaching yourself? Well, like Nirvana covers and stuff So like Nirvana and I was really into grunge when I was like in middle school And then I got into like Lilith fair stuff Oh nice Yeah so like I would play like Lisa Lowe or like Sarah McLaughlin or one of you know just

Anything counting crows and like all those bands Indigo girls no Indigo girls it wasn't my go-to I had to learn those songs because my sister and her best friend one loved it. I loved it. So I had to learn how to play them so they could sing it. Right. And that was like right when I started learning how to play guitar.

And I was like, I don't make me learn this. But I was like, my sister would like to sing. And I just liked writing, you know. Yeah, isn't that funny that you just, I think when you're young and you grow up in a town where maybe you're just slightly different or I was like. I was like really chubby and boys didn't like me. And I didn't. I just wanted to have something that was my own, I guess. When you look back at that, is that how.

it was or do you feel like that was like was your image of yourself at that time how would you view yourself now was it internal or was that actually no I was actually like I was always like a funny loud chubby girl but

I think I wanted I had things to say and I felt like it was hard to express them maybe when you have this persona you've created in middle school you know so I thought writing songs about it would be a good way to get my feelings out. Did somebody say, hey, you should write songs about it?

No, I just, I started writing poems when I was little. And so I had these poems that I would sing melodies to, but I never played an instrument. So then, so maybe I should be an instrument. Do you know your first song was? Oh, yeah, it's horrible. What is it? Well, my best friend and I in the fourth grade had this horrible song called Love Triangle, which we didn't even know what that meant. We just like made it. But that's actually like a pretty sophisticated title.

I mean, who watched? I think we watched soap operas or something and we realized that like a love try like so we made up this song I gotta love triangle baby I'm going for you you and you I don't know what to do I don't know because the problem is you you you and you would actually make a love parallel

with it's a love parallel it's a love parallel it's a love square right so we didn't get our math right it's a trapezoid I love trapezoid so we didn't have our math right but that was our first song when we were 10 but that's like a real song

I mean, all things considered, there are probably some bands that you could... Pitch that one, too. Yeah, at least the concept. So, yeah, that was my first one. Did you perform it in front of people? No, not that one. Yeah. Also, I also wrote a poem that I had no...

I didn't know... I knew words rhyme, but I didn't know how deep their meaning could be. And I remember reading my mom a poem, and I give her a lot of credit. I was like nine. And I was like, oh, give me a kiss, yet not bitter lust. One, I can feel. One I can thrust. And she was like, I think you meant trust.

Like my mother was so sweet. She wasn't like, whoa. Do you remember? Yes, I remember. And she was like, oh, I think you meant one you can trust. And I'm like, oh, okay. And I quickly erased it and wrote trust. And then I put it away.

Like how sweet is that? The love triangle and the lyrics is like, there's definitely some people you can sing that too. They would get you in a lot of trouble. I'm like nine years old. writing these like hot like you know you said he wrote it with a friend so you weren't you were writing you had friends come over and you guys were yeah yeah we had a one of those like you co-wrote from from like literally from elementary school yeah she's still my my best friends we met when we were like seven but um that was just for fun like we made up a fake band and she had those like electric um like

two two two drums like plastic ones that you like so we'd play in her basement and then what was the name of your band uh that band was just well we had a club called the private eyes. Oh, so good. But that was part of our club. And then my first band in high school was called Suburban Mercury. Okay.

It was because all the, Detroit was the car industry, so we just picked two cars and fit them together. And I was in a band with like a bunch of boys. But they kicked me out. Why? Because I wanted to play like

kind of more Lilith Fair rock, like kind of going into alternative and they wanted to do like raging into some machine. Yeah, those are different. So it just didn't work. It's to kick me out. Did you then start your own thing?

Yeah, coffee shops around Detroit, like the Detroit area when I was 15. So how long were you, first of all, how did people, did you record this music? I mean, when you're in 15, are you then? Not really. We didn't have any money and we didn't have the access. So how are they booking you and stuff like that? The first gig I ever had, I went to a coffee shop and there was an open mic and I played and the owner asked if I wanted to play on Friday nights.

So I just learned covers and I just went back. with a tip jar, put my tip jar out and play covers for two hours. Did you make any money? Yeah, but I think my grandma put like 20 bucks in there. I think she like over-taped. You mean like 24 bucks and then like the rest was family just paying me to have a hobby. Yeah. But when did you realize it might not be a hobby?

At that point? Last week. Yeah. Songwriter jokes. Right. Right. Yeah. I knew I wanted to move to California when I was 18.

I was like, I think I'm going to try to go get a record deal. Did you go to school? No. So you were, you graduated, did you graduate high school? Yeah, I went to an all-girls Catholic high school. And I was like, yeah, I don't know that this is, like, I don't know that college is the route. I think I probably should. I mean, for some people, it's the way to go.

But I just knew I wanted to get a record deal. All I knew I wanted to do was make music. I think my parents were a little, you know, don't you think. think maybe you should get a degree at least. And I said the trade-off was I'd move to L.A. and then go to community college. So I went to Valley College and I went to Glendale community and I took classes. Were you already Mozilla at the time?

No. When I got my first record deal with Maverick, they said, do you have like a nickname that you go by? Because Maury McDonald is, you know, it's not really your style. I mean, I had like, you know, knock and hooping. It sounds kind of like a cool name. Like when you have alliteration like that, it's a really good

little bit little fair name it's a great little bit but I was in like a track I was doing like acoustic like like urban acoustic pop at a time when it was sort of like pre Nelly Furtado

so like it was very so I had these like giant gold knocker earrings and a track jacket on and yeah and then they were like do you have a nickname I said well my grandpa the one that taught me how to sing he used to call me Mozilla because Momo is my nickname

and Moses's and Moes and Mozers and Moesie Post and he'd call me Mozilla because he actually had a cousin whose real name was Mozilla Oh wow That was her name from Tennessee So he just called me Mozilla

I thought it was because you were a badass And that there was some like No no I thought that there was like some sort of like Like I could see somebody being like You know like like a Godzilla Oh yeah That was like some sick ass rap name Where it's like yo man

I'm like Maureen the Godzilla I'm like Mozilla I wasn't that yeah I always thought I thought that there is some sort of thing. That's really cute that your grandpa used to call you that. And then the whole family would call me Mosella. Yeah.

So, wait, how soon after moving to, or going to school in Glendale, are you getting a record deal? Within two years. Oh, wow. So pretty short. So you weren't really struggling as far as, like, there was like that two-year span between. So I moved here at 18. I was a waitress and a cake decorator. So I decorated cakes in the valley.

What? Yeah, I decorated, like, wedding cakes and cupcakes and stuff. So that's what I did, and I was a waitress. And I didn't have a car the first year I was here. I didn't know anyone. I didn't have any money. I took the bus. In LA.

You took the bus down Ventura Boulevard every day at 18 years old to decorate cakes. So I was desperate to get out of that and try to make more money so I could buy a car. So I begged the restaurant manager to let me waitress at night while I decorated in the day so I could buy my first Honda. And then I got a Honda. And then I hated the job so much. But I will say that the, I learn Spanish, so I speak, I'm fluent in Spanish now from working in the bakery. So there's, I mean, it's, you know, life has its, I mean, everything has its pluses. How long were you working there?

Like a year and a half or two years. So, and then I was like, I can't do this anymore. I really felt like the, I was just this really bubbly, bright kid who had these big dreams. And there was a lot of career waitresses who just like hammered on me all the time. And what do you mean? I just they were unhappy and I was always happy and I was just a kid I didn't know you know and so I just said I don't know if I can do this

I got to get out of L.A. Something's got to change and I actually find it really interesting that whenever I do something dramatically dramatically sort of like shifting in my life change happens in ways you don't expect so I left L.A. for three or four months and I moved to England and I parked my car and I went away to Europe for three or four months because nothing was happening and I couldn't get a deal.

I hated my job. I really wasn't finishing school. And then when I was in Europe, I got a call that Maverick Records wanted to meet me. How did they hear it? They got my acoustic demos. They got a hold of an acoustic demo. Who was it?

It heard you. Scott Austin and Guy Osserie. Crazy. So you're in London at this time for a couple months? Yeah. And then you go and you slide back. So then I said, oh shit, maybe I should go back to L.A. and see this out.

I mean, no one else is, you know, no one else has really said, come here, let's meet, let's do this. And there's always, there have been a lot of like false hopes, you know, because that happens all the time for the whole, your whole. I mean, it still happens. All the time for all of us. Yeah, yeah. So I went back and then interesting, as soon as they were interested, other people were interested. Why do you call it false hope and not just hope? Well, I kind of look at it like, it's not really false hope.

I would say that I liken the music industry in my career as like, uh, a maze in a city where you know there's a way to get out of it, but every corner you turn you think is the corner for a long time. You're like, oh, this is the corner, I'm turning the corner, I'm going to be it. This is going to happen. Here we go. And you turn the corner is like, it's not the corner, but you're closer. So then you keep going, you keep going, you cope going.

And there's this huge corner you're about to turn in like, I can't see where I'm going, but I think this is the corner and it's not quite the corner. But every turn leads you where you're supposed to go. Is that particular to the music industry or is that life? I only know the music industry, so I can't say, but I would say it's life. But I think in particular being self-employed in the record industry. And always having these, having really big dreams requires a lot of long game and a lot of patience and a lot of determination to see something through when it's hard. When did you, I mean, did you learn that?

So you come here sort of thinking, okay, here's, maybe this is that corner that I need to turn. You know, are you thinking, you're not, that. point thinking long game partly because you just need some money to pay bills too at that age yeah but i also thought this is it this is what i wanted to do i wanted to make an album i wanted to tour i wanted to you know have this career i had envisioned when i left home and it was a corner in my in my twists and turns of life but it wasn't like the corner because you know obviously life happens the label folded into warner brothers after i signed i toured um i met amazing people who did you tour I toured with like Lifehouse and Dave Matthews and

How long were you on tour for? Like two years Wow, that's way longer than I thought you were going to say Yeah I mean I had record deals and toured for like Three weeks at a time and three weeks here Well I would do I would say like two months here Home for two months

Back out for two months Home for two months Back out for four months Did you have who are you touring with like Did you have a band? I had a band yeah And then sometimes I did like acoustic shows I did promo shows I did

Were you able to have any personal life? Yeah, I would come home and kind of resume life for two, three months and then do it again. Right. I always try to liken it to, you know, it's what I needed at the time. Yeah. And it got me to where I am now, but it wasn't what I thought it was going to be. Why? What did you think it was going to be? I don't know.

I think in your mind you have this vision of like, I mean, when you set out to get a deal and make an album and it didn't happen exactly as you planned, you know, When you get dropped, you're like, oh, okay, well, that wasn't what I planned. Do you get dropped when they merged? No, they kept me for a while. And then they put the album out and I continued to tour. And then after like three, four years, they just finally dropped me. And then I went back to cupcake decorating because I needed to just stay busy. I was so sad.

So I went back to cake decorating for a while. And at the time, my ex-boyfriend, but my boyfriend at the time was a set designer in the movie business. So he hired me to help decorate shows with him for a while to make money. So I decorated crazy. I got, so I was decorating cupcakes. I was really like struggling to figure out what my next step was. I signed another deal to Universal. I got another record deal, but I was helping my ex-boyfriend decorate movie and TV sets.

So while I was making my second album, I would go in in the morning and work on the, I did the first season. of glee. I helped decorate I helped decorate glee while I was making my album. No way. Yeah. Did you meet a lot of musicians and stuff through the process or no? Because you're not in that side of the world. I wasn't in that side of the world. So did that just tease you more? A little bit. It was like, okay, let's make this amazing album. So I would go in at night and make my album while I was doing decorating glee during the day and design helping set

design. That's crazy. Crazy. Then you cut to years later like like, you know, we all work on projects. Like I met Liam Shell recently and she cut this song that I had had and you're like oh I you probably saw me walking the hall I didn't say anything to her it's like you probably she probably didn't even know she saw me walking the halls of glee the jobs you have in between deals are so strange yeah that I I know this is your story but um I got dropped it wasn't really dropped I had this I had a record company thing that EMI bought and I ran a record company and when I ran out of money I just got depressed I just come off to

her and it was like I ran my band into the ground we have no money we're done yeah and my sister was a talent agent and she goes you should go on commercial auditions and I was like no I mean that's not really for me she's like just try it the first one I book we I have fly to I get it and I fly to Sydney Australia to be the face of subway no really yeah and I shoot this like I shoot this thing and the people in Sydney think that I'm famous because this like this like Los Angeles actor comes out and they have like all these extras and you get picked up by limos and all this shit. And I went and I totally like had I did all these commercials and it was like the whole thing was about like the fresh word.

Like you know, it was the thing and it was like this joke about it. And people thought that I was doing that. a living and it was so refreshing because I had been pursuing music for so long. No one cared. And no one cared and you're like, no, no, I mean, I'm in a band. I release some music. They're like, oh, you're an actor. I'm like, nah.

I mean, fortunately, there's no evidence of this. I mean, I want to see pictures. I have evidence of it, but I don't think it's on the internet. So I'm pretty happy that I didn't end up being Jared Fogel. And Casey's listening in prison. I'm kind of happy about that too, Ross. Yeah, right? But it's just weird.

You never know you. You have to just keep walking through doors because it's that may thing. It might be the corner. It might be the corner. Every corner I turned, I thought, was the corner and it wasn't, but he got me closer to my goals and my journeys. And I still am turning corners. But there's definitely, there's definitely been like breakthroughs in the last few years that are, you know, keep you going. Okay, all that 10, 15 years of, like, corner turning wasn't for nothing.

Okay, here's the deal. I am technologically challenged. I've always been technologically challenged. I barely know how to use this computer to record this thing that I'm recording right now. So I can guarantee you that I cannot build a website. And when I was in a band, I just needed something to help me build my band's website.

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The first year of your subscription Banzugal Websites built for musicians By musicians So you get the deal at Universal And there's the new hope thing Yeah and there's another new hope so you make another album And all this time

Did you co-write this stuff? Are you writing this alone? Are you who's producing it? My first album I did mostly on my own I wrote almost everything And then the second album, I decided to do more co-writing. So I work with just a bunch of people that were kind of just talented songwriters and people that taught me things. Shelly Pike and taught me a lot. Huge.

Yeah, Shelly was my first co-writer on my first album. We did a couple songs together. And then the rest of the album I wrote alone for the most part, her and Jude Cole and Jimmy Harry, actually, too. And then on the second album, Marty James was a really good friend. No way. I've no Marty since we were 18. Congratulations to Marty on his on Despacito. Yeah.

So we did my second album. He produced most of it. We've been friends since we first moved here to LA together. Like way before. We've been friends for years. He was signed to Grand Royal Records on the Beastie Boys label. And I was trying to get a deal on Maverick and I needed demos. And some guy hooked me up with Marty to produce my first demos.

But those demos didn't get me signed to Maverick. Wow. The acoustic demos got me signed. So then on the second album I went back to Marty. and then we did a bunch of stuff together. Did you ever re-record songs? You know, when you said like these demos didn't make it, but these demos, were you recording songs and it was like that was the demo

and then the next time you recorded songs, you were like, well, no, those are already done? Or did you re-record songs multiple times with multiple producers? It was always a brand new song, right? Sometimes. Although if the late, I feel like back then if the label thought you had a single, they would try it with like four different people. They would do four different producers to try to take a stab at a song

where now it seems like it's a one-stop shop of you go in, you write it with that producer. That's what it is. He produces it, that's the song. And if it doesn't work, you're not going to take it to another producer with this other guy's publishing on it. Where back then, producers would just do it.

What was the difference in the Universal deal from the Maverick Warner Deal? The Maverick Warner Deal was like my very first sort of, you know. Not like the actual deal, like the parameters. Those were your babies. Those were my babies. Those songs were like, yeah. Because you spend 14 years to write your first album.

It's like your debut of your, it's your journal incarnate. It's like your, it's everything. It's you. And with the universal one, it was more contrived? It's like love. Once you've had your heart broken that badly, you don't love the same way again. Yeah. So I would say getting dropped the first time is like having your heart broken the first time.

Once you've really loved in that stupid. unabashed sort of careless way. You look at love differently. You look at album. It's like that. So I think the second album, I just looked at it differently. You still love the songs. You still want to make them perfect. You still want it to be beautiful. But you're realistic about the relationship.

Wow. But you were starting to get licensed. At this point, this is like the beginning of like... And that's when the licensing started. Yeah. Is that because of Universal? Because you signed your publishing. to EMI though, right around that time. I never signed a pub down on the first

on the first one. Okay. So on the second deal, Katie Vinton, who was Katie Donovan at the time, reached out to me on social media randomly. I think it was MySpace. And it was like, I saw you perform two nights

with Lifehouse at Urban Plaza in New York City. I went to the first show, because she was in college at NYU. She's like, I went to the first show and I came back the second night just to see you. Do you have a publishing deal? I'm the assistant to all the creative EMI. And I said, no, I don't.

She's like, well, why don't you come meet me? So I went and met her, but she was sort of, you know, trying to, she was still at a time in her career when she was trying to get doors opened. She was just trying to get calls back. So she was like, hey, guys, I got this girl. And everyone's sort of like, yeah, okay, yeah, cool. And she marched into John's office, John Platt's office and was like, sign her. Can I sign her?

And he was like, I'll let you sign her with me. And that was her first co-signing. That's so sick. And then Big John, John Platt, made her his assistant after that because of her tenacity and her vision. And then she, then she became his A&R. Right. And then they left DMI, it folded into Sony. I stayed on Sony and they're at Warner Chapel now.

Yeah, and they changed my life. Yeah, they changed your life. They changed a lot of people's lives. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So, yeah, that was my personal. So they bring you on and you start getting licenses all over the place. That's got to be affecting your touring too. I mean, are you then going back on tour because people know who you are?

No, it's funny at that point. I was so sick of the label feeling sort of, we all feel jerked around by labels at some point. But when you don't feel like you're a priority and they're not seizing opportunities, at the time, I had had a song on the album, I had a song that wasn't going to be on the album, but we decided to repackage and put it on because we got this commercial last minute for the Verizon droid when they dropped, this huge new phone. and it had like a couple million views in the first like day on YouTube and they were like oh let's put this on and make it

but they they didn't want to make it a single they didn't want to work it and you're like guys no one ever gets these types of commercials we gotta make this a single and I actually just went in and asked them to let me go I didn't wait for them to drop me I just said you know what guys this isn't working we don't have the same vision you let let's let just let me go also because what did they say they said okay and the game yeah they let me go They give you your master's back?

Yeah, they give me the master's back. Why do your songs translate so well to television and film? Well, I think in the beginning of my songs, the really emotional, ballady, heartbreaking. On the first album, One Tree Hill, used a lot of my songs. I did a Weezer cover that was on the One Tree Hill, and the producer of that show is still a really good friend of mine. So these really emotional balladty heartbreak songs really worked in the teen drama world. On the second album, I wrote one sort of happy,

a beat thing that worked on a commercial and I realized what was working and so I actually tailored my songwriting to commercials. So I actually Mindfully wrote lyrics that I knew could work and that I would just specifically put out an EP of songs for Licensing so I didn't I didn't make it like my this album is my absolute vision of my heart and soul This was just I know I can I know I can do this this is a commercial decision so and we had a hundreds of things. And EMI was all about it. So they were going out and kind of pushing.

Yeah. At the time, Katie was really working with the film and TV department in L.A. and the commercials and Sink Department in New York City. And they just, that team of people just went for it. We had, we had, I mean, and at the time, because my label wasn't pushing for to do any promotion on this thing and I asked them to let me go, I started owning my own masters at that point. So I was owning the master on everything I was licensing. So I split it with my producer. We split 50-50 the master in the pub. So

while my publisher was recouping my publishing side in my advance, I was getting cash up front on the master, 50% of every commercial sink. And if there was sag on it, because I sang, I got sag money. So there was a time when we were having a commercial a month. I mean, you're making more money than 95% of major label artists at that point. Yeah. Because they were getting that $100,000 advance. And then sitting. Minus, minus like lawyer, manager, maybe business manager fee.

Plus, then after that they're splitting with their bandmates. So you got four writers left. So you're at like maybe you're at, you know, around $22,000 a person minus taxes. So you end up with like $18,000 a person. You're getting like that upfront per sink. Yeah. You know? That's crazy.

Yeah. Or more. I just saw it and I was like, okay, that's good. Let me keep doing that. And at the time, I said, okay, I don't want, I consciously decided not to tour anymore. I said, I'm going to come off the road. I'm just going to do sinks for a year or two and make some money. And then kind of have the financial stability to then make a bigger decision about what I want to do if I want to still do art.

My artist thing, if I want to just write for other people. So I took that time to like just make as much as I could in that world. And because truthfully, those ad agencies were really good to me. They were really loyal to me. And we were working in a very like effortless. Yeah, they would come to you and say, hey, we need this kind of song. And I would. And am I, you know, so we were kind of having this relationship that was working.

And then I think it started, then people caught on that there's no money, there was no money anywhere. There was no money in sales. There's no money in album sales. There was no money in streaming. at the time. So no one was making money. And so then every artist that wasn't having a hit was like, I need to do sinks. So then it became oversaturated where people were saying, oh, we got this brief. We want something that sounds like Mozilla, but we only have a thousand dollar budget all in. So people were imitating me. And some, there's always somebody there willing to do it for that. Exactly. So then I was

like, okay, and don't get me wrong, there's still great opportunities. And it's still there. But the hustle is much more there's more I think there's it's a the game is evolving slightly so well taught you it must have taught you how to write with so many different kinds of artists because they give you their own brief and you're like

oh yeah I've done this a million times because I've written you know I wrote this kind of song for this commercial even yeah and the commercial were lyric briefs and sonic briefs um with my artistic bent bent on it and then yeah so but now working with artists is even

It's interesting. You just have to be flexible. Were you releasing songs while you... Like when you'd have a song licensed in something, would you then put it on iTunes? I put it on iTunes. Crazy. Yeah.

Or release an EP of those songs that were out in commercials that year. So this is... Where is the point? Because right there, you know, you start... Your third credit on Wikipedia is wrecking ball. So between like, yo, I'm gonna...

I don't really want a tour. I think I'm done on the artist side to like, yo, I'm going to try this thing. How did that transition happen? And were you comfortable saying, I'm done being in the spotlight? Or is that also a transition?

I think it's actually interesting. I think most artists who become topliners have to grapple with that decision that they don't want to be in the spotlight anymore and that they're okay being a supporting role. And they're okay helping this artist create a vision side by side and then letting them be the one to sing it to the world.

I think that when I started after the commercials and stuff, I had a sort of a, the commercials were doing really well and I was earning doing that, but it wasn't giving me that feeling. It wasn't the kind of songs that I wanted to be writing all the time. I said, it's okay to make money, and you need to make money to keep doing what you do, but you also have to fulfill that feeling inside of you

as an artist that's, you know, that you feel like you're creating something where you can have a human connection and where you can let your humanness meet people's humanness via sound and music and melody. So I wasn't expressing my humanness on the level I wanted to express it.

And I like the songs I did for commercials, but it wasn't that really deep part of me. So I didn't... So I got into a relationship with someone and I moved to the East Coast for a year. and it went south. I was living in Philly and I was taking the train

in three days a week to New York to write. And I just sort of decided like I'm not, the artist thing isn't working like I wanted. Maybe I shouldn't even be doing music at all. Maybe I should just take a break and just try to write for other people and not stress about it anymore.

So I sort of was moving in a direction of maybe this isn't happening for a reason. and I got into a relationship with someone and was supposed to get married and it was a very quick, exciting, brief flame of a relationship that was very painful and it ended like horribly, like really horribly. And about seven weeks before. What does that mean? The person that I was with was not what I thought they were. And everything was... Another false hope.

Another false hope. And tumultuous and really, um, just really traumatic. And I called, so I had to call the wedding off six weeks before the wedding. So I had a hall and a dress and a wedding. You know,

the wedding catering and the band, the music, everything was booked. And, um, we were actually building a house. So I had to walk away from the house and the wedding. And I,

basically my life was just steamrolled. And I had to do it. It was one of those things where I, didn't want to do it but I had to do it. And you're in a foreign city for you. And I'm alone in another city and I was horribly ruined by this. And I didn't even know where to begin to start over. And I was literally in ashes on the ground, like literally broken, like ready to be a Phoenix.

Everyone's telling me I will be, but there's no, how do you get from me to be? I remember my best friend at the time on the phone with me, like a few weeks before my wedding was supposed to be and she was like, Mo, you're going to be a hit songwriter. I just see it for you. I just see it. Just don't quit. If you want to do this, just go for it.

You have it. And I remember thinking, wow, she must really love me to lie to me. Because there's no way. How do I get from A to B? How do you get in those rooms with those hit writers? How do you get in those places? There's no way. I don't know how to start.

I don't know how to start over again. I don't even know where to begin. And I just remember being on my mom's sofa in Detroit and thinking, okay, I have to start over. So I moved back to L.A. I was taking trips back and forth, and I was staying at my aunt's house out here. And I just went to my publisher

and I said, I need to start doing sessions again. And they were like, okay, well, we'll put you in some rooms and see. You know, you kind of disappeared for a year. So were they mad that you left? No, because it was a whole new staff because Eamide folded into Sony. So I'm basically trying to get new people I didn't know. when they fold it in

I left you were like oh you were like I'm gonna literally leave I left to these coast for a year you come back and you have to reintroduce yourself to I readdust some of these people who don't know me and hopefully get them to care about me and I give Jim Valliatato a lot of credit because he was like well let me see what I can do and he last minute so the week I was supposed to get married

I was like crying pretty much every other hour and trying to go do these sessions with people I did know trying to get my life back together just like go do it just go just do it i had to just do something and i really firmly believe that when you're in a you're in a place of devastation and heartbreak opportunities are there it's about doing it's about putting one foot in front of the other going to a meeting you don't want to take taking a phone call you don't have courage when it's really hard to have courage to put your face out there to the world when you you don't even like yourself. How are you going to like anybody else you go meet? It's really hard. And he said,

well, I got this session. The top liner canceled. There's some pretty big songwriters. You think you can do it. And I'm like, yeah, okay. So I'm in L.A. I drive to this session. The studio's not right. It's not. They couldn't get us a studio. So they put us in this Japanese learning center on Pico Boulevard with a piano in like a ballet room in the back. Yeah, a Japanese children's Learning Center. I walk in, I'm like, what is this? And I'm barely holding back tears. And I walk in and it's Sasha Scarback. Wow. And he was like, hey, I'm like, hi. And he sits down and he starts playing something and I just start crying. And then Stefan Machio showed up like maybe 45 minutes later, an hour late. And then we start talking. And then by the end of the day, I'm just sobbing and telling

them my whole story. I'm supposed to get married this week. And then we wrote Recking Ball. Wow. Yeah. did you know at that time that the song was special or at this point where you're like I mean I'm I don't care I'm I feel like shit anyway so then you're just like you're like it doesn't matter or did you feel was there this was there when did that moment happen where you kind of had the epiphany that this was all going to go into in a much better direction well that song then it changes everything yeah it changed everything very quickly too right within a year I knew that I had written one of the most true things I'd ever written. I knew I'd written something so real to my pain

that it was an undeniably real song and I knew it was catchy. But it's not a hit till it's a hit. We all know that. Sure. Did that make you then change your process for the rest of the songs? Because once you emote like that,

it kind of open, It must have opened some mental doors too of being, oh, yeah, that's interesting. If I'm really honest, maybe there's a great song. But what's funny is when you want to be really honest, you don't always get to be. Weirdly, when you're cognizant of honesty, you're not as honest. Wow, yeah. When you're like, I need to try to be really honest. And you're like, I'm blocked.

But when it's just fluidly, painfully raw, there's no filter. There's no like, let's turn this knob and have the honest moment. Right. Funny, when you try to be honest, the songs don't sound as sincere. How does it get from you three to, you know, being recorded? Because you wasn't really recording there while you're writing it. No, we didn't even have a place to record it.

We had to go the next day and record the demo the next day at Harmony Studios. Nice. We were in there recording the demo. Funny, and this is just how the universe works and life. I would have never met Miley if I hadn't been in Philly. Why? She was there while Liam was shooting a movie. And she heard another song I wrote from a producer in New York and wanted to cut it.

So I cut her vocal on a song I wrote in Philly and we exchanged numbers. And then when all this stuff was going down in Philly, I thought, that's it. I'll probably never work with her again. This thing happened and I'll never see it. It's just like it was a one-time thing and that's it. And then... And at the time no one knew if she was going to blow up No, she wasn't the mildly she is now.

She was partying the USA, post-Hanna Montana, can't be tamed, the climb. So she was reinventing herself. She was working with all these different people. So no one knew what... Interestingly, this is another funny thing about songwriting, because she wasn't what she is right now, maybe a lot of people wouldn't have given her their hits.

Oh, wow. If you think about that, people are really picky. If they write the best song they've ever written, they want to give it to the biggest star right now. And they don't give it to the star that might be a star in six weeks or six months. They don't take a chance on a lesser or a budding artist with a hit because they want the sure thing with the big artist, which is really hard to get. So interestingly, maybe a bigger writer wouldn't have given their hit to a budding artist or a reinventing artist. But because I'd never had a hit before, and I didn't even know it was a hit, I just knew it was a good song that would be. felt real to me, that it was like, let's give this to her because she's a great singer and

this makes sense. You see that a lot with writers like, even where, you know, Julia and Justin, Julia Michaels and Justin Tranner when they're doing something like Haley Steinfeld, who no one knows who that is yet. You know, they weren't at the time, they weren't yet in the room with, they couldn't get in the room with Bieber for a whole album. Exactly. But they could do that with Haley Steinfeld or you know you have Scott Harris who was able to do that with chain smokers and with Sean Mendez and part of it is because I'm sure at the time it must have been he wasn't necessarily going in with Beyonce meanwhile he then ends up in a weird sort of way being one of the few people who shaped two of the biggest artists of the last 10 years so it's like having

sometimes it's a blessing to not be in the room with the best artists I definitely turn down an opportunity to write with this redhead kid from the UK when I got an email to go in. And I'm like, here's an acoustic redheaded kid. And I could go in with Sealo and I went in with Sealo. And I was like, nah, I got like this other session. I'm going to take that. And I have that email somewhere. Yeah.

From being like, no, I don't know. How do you know? It's a guy. It's Ed Shearer. It's a, it's not even a famous sounding name. Like he doesn't, you know. We all have misses where we did. You know what I mean?

Like he doesn't have Mozilla. His name's Ed Shearin. And he's a red-edit kid. Like, I'm going to turn that down. I'm going to get in with the biggest artists I can get in with. Interesting, right? You know? It happens a lot where people turn down new artists to try to go for the biggest thing.

The thing is everybody's trying to go for the biggest thing. You're almost better off using your talents to shape something with a lot of potential, a lot of promise. Yeah, you either want that or you want to totally reinvent. Reinvent. Somebody. And I was on the cusp of a reinvention with Miley. with her that I didn't even know. And it wasn't like, oh, let's give this song.

No one wanted the song. I think we, you know, I don't think it was the kind of thing where like, let's turn down all these people to go give it to her. It was just like I wrote it and it was real. And at the time she was going through calling off a wedding. And we were texting and it was like, this is right. So strange. And then she brought it to Luke and then.

And it did okay. And then, okay. So then you write with like, you know, when you go, you start writing with some, of the biggest pop stars. Then all of a sudden I'm a songwriter. Then you're a songwriter and you're in with I've turned a really big corner. The maze has opened up into one of those like

you know in a maze there's like a courtyard? I'm in a courtyard in a maze right now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you can choose wherever you want to go at this point, a little bit. I mean, we could talk about the 1D thing. We could talk about Kelly Clarkson, but the reality is he did like, what, nine songs on Madonna's, 11 songs on Madonna's album?

So, you know, you start, you're in this courtyard, you're getting pulled in one direction where you can, you write with the biggest pop stars in the world with the one direction. You have one of the biggest voices in the world with Kelly Clarkson, and then you have one of the biggest icons with Madonna. Did you, is that when you realized you had made it? Like, what, is that the moment when you realize, oh, this isn't a hobby anymore?

This is, did it give you stability? It gave me a lot of stability. It gave me a lot of validation that all, those years of hard work weren't for nothing. Right. And that I, you know, I didn't have a hit for 15 years. It took 15 years in the time I left home to have a hit song. 15 years for an overnight success.

For an overnight success. Yeah. So then you're like, okay, I'm not doing this for, you know, for fun. What I went through was so humbling. Life humbles us. And when we rise from the ashes of our pain to have these victories, they don't even feel like your own sometimes. They feel like something bigger.

And so I don't even really look and go, well, I've made it now. It's more like, thank God I made it. These blessings and these gifts are amazing fruit on this tree that was pruned and pruned and pruned. And while I am so grateful for this, I don't take it for granted and I don't take it lightly and I know that everything lined up in this perfect flaming hoop and I was evil Knievel on a motorcycle going over this ramp that I just happened to jump through a hoop at a time when I if I didn't if I didn't make it yeah it was over so I know those moments in my life when I jumped through the flaming hoop and I'm very cognizant of the of this special sort of cosmic

alignments that happen in our lives. And they happen to you. I've seen it happen to a few friends. And so I just say thank you. And I just try to write great music. Yeah, but you don't just say thank you. You end up going to Washington, D.C., fighting on songwriter behalf. You're on the Grammy board because you're fighting for songwriters on songwriters' behalf. You're going to women's marches. You're not very good at just saying like, ah, thank you. You're like, yo, I'm going to go and spend what would be the equivalent of a full-time job trying to make sure that I actively give back. Yeah.

I, because I believe my gifts aren't, my blessings and gifts don't happen in a bubble. And there were a lot of people that helped me along the way and gave me encouragement. And there were a lot of women that I see struggling in the same ways. And so I want to, I won't speak too much on the past relationship, but I will say that my power and my voice got lost. And as a woman, I made a very clear decision that if I had a voice and if I had power and if God got me through that, that I would never silence that voice again and that I would be powerful and that I would stand up for weaker women. And I would stand up for people that didn't have a voice.

And so it is a thank you. It is like, wow, this amazing thing happened through the course of a lot of obstacles. but how do I use that obstacle to show other people that their dreams are possible and that their desires are worthy and that their goals are attainable and especially women because while we've come so far in the history of humankind, women are still not equal in the world. And I'm one of very, very, very few women in the entire history of the human race. literally to have had a number one hit

co-written at pop radio there are maybe 20 of us 30 of us I mean think about not artists but co-writers think about the co-writing women out there that have actually done it this is something I'm trying to figure out where we've had Justin Tranner on and I know how he feels about

homophobia in the music business he also speaks on behalf of you know women for misogyny and so do you my question is it more prevalent in the music business or is it is it an equal amount compared to the rest of the world is it less so in the music business and still just such a massive problem that it's it's still in the music business and we should be moving on from it I mean from from your perspective is the music industry misogynist that do you come across do you

come across that kind of barrier is there a reason why you are one of the of 20 people that have. There may be more than 20. I really don't think there's that. Let's just 40. Let's say it's 200. Yeah. Let's say it's 2,000.

It's such a tiny number. Yeah. I mean, it's clearly not that. No. It's maybe 50. I'd say the last 30 or 40 years of women who have actually had a number one hit that they wrote but didn't sing.

So let's say. I couldn't even tell you how many, but it's not a lot. Let's say that it's, it doesn't even matter. The number is infinitesimal, cosmically speaking. So it doesn't, it's tiny no matter what. And especially. I'll say this.

When you get the call from the head of a label or an A&R or a manager to set up a camp to procure and create an opportunity for an artist to sort of shape an album. How many times is a woman in control of that? Of the camp? Mm-hmm. Oh, that's interesting. I have very few. Do you think that if there was a woman that would, or that if you decided personally even, you know, I'd like to run a camp for whatever the young artist. is, be like, I'm really into this artist, that you could go to the label and say, let me run the camp.

Possibly. I think that they would be open to it. But I think when you look at the really big circles of bigger artists that need to have, like, you know, there's camps for already established hit artists. Majority of those are men. And I think a woman could go in and say to the label, I would like to do a camp. But sometimes I wonder if we would be taken with the same level of trust to ensure hits. Wow.

I do wonder. I do wonder if a woman went to them to an A&R and said, hey, so-and-so at this label, I'd like to run a camp for so-and-so. They'd be like, cool, yeah. We already got that guy doing it. It's interesting because I always say that the best pop writers are these girl artists, Megan Trainor,

Katie Perry is really good Adele's really good Taylor Swift's really good You look at the guys on the other side That are their contemporaries And a lot of them don't write No And a lot of them take outside songs

Yeah You know Beber and Chris Brown And you know Maroon 5 even Like Even though Maroon 5

Can prove that they cannot write Hit songs But they do take outside songs Telly takes outside songs Yeah that's true Yeah but there's a difference there because Kelly will take in outside songs, make tweaks to it,

and not ask for her name to be attached to it. She's one of the very few that doesn't take publishing. Yeah, but I think the idea of maybe the best the best artist writers are female too. I agree. Maybe that's why they're so amazing is because they write their own stuff.

Yeah. You know, maybe, although, you know, for a long time Katie and Bonnie were, you know, that was a female powerhouse team. Katie and Sarah Hudson. And for us is, is gay and open and I'm not saying that that's the same

but in the conversations we've had previously it seems like those are similar issues so that's why I mentioned that. You know what I think's interesting? I think it's just, I don't think it's that women aren't getting opportunities as much or that there aren't, they're definitely

represented in the business. We definitely have visually, there's a lot of women out there. The question is only in the last few years have women really been, have stepped into the role of behind the scenes creating of this package. For the most part, in the last, I'd say, in the 70s and 80s, there was Diane Warren and Carol King and then Shelley Pike and Lauren Christie kind of came up with a few others, but really

when you look at the pop world of women in there with the male producers and in there with the male engineers and in there with the predominantly male musicians, it's only been a few of them in the 70s and 80s when the women's revolution really started. the women's movement really started. So then you've got the 90s and 2000s, a little more. You got Sia doing stuff. You got Esther Dean doing stuff. You've got a few other women doing stuff.

And now, only now in these last 10 years have female songwriters really emerged to have some status and some recognition. But interestingly, there's no network of nepotism for us. There's no network for us of like how do I, like, I think men are. of the super producers and none of them are women so they're and those are the people who tend to drive a lot of these albums they drive the ship they steer the ship so interestingly I think

men have had generations and millennia like a lot of nepotism for a long time they know how it works yeah they're really good at it they're really good at mentoring younger men and bringing them up yeah there's this the part of the root of the misogyny is that

men tend to try to look for someone under someone that a men a mentee that they see themselves in it. And I don't know that men necessarily see themselves in a young woman. And so how do I, do I choose to mentor this young girl to become great? It is, I think nepotism is sort of. It'd be interesting. If there was a major female producer, that would change, you know, you see what,

I'm Blakey on her name, who did the, yeah, Linda Perry. You know, what she does for women, what she's done for women, how significant that is. And what Diane Warren has done for, you know, I know she tends to write alone. Still, she changed the game for women. But she's changed the game. Absolutely. You know, she's writing hit songs for when you're writing, you know, the biggest, the only number one Aerosmith song was 100% written by a woman. Yeah.

And so there is something about. She's been a bit of an anomaly for a long. time. Yeah. Yeah. But also the interesting thing about her is she, her tenacity is, like, to the next level. She's very serious about not co-writing. She's, she writes everything. This is the song. And it's like

her drive to get her songs out there was like unparalleled. And she had to be that way because she was the only woman doing it. Right. So I think it's just, you know, I think it's just a matter of time. I think we're behind slightly and so we're starting to get more recognition and more visibility and as things go on

I think it's just a conversation that's continued that we need to continue to have about about giving women opportunities when it's not an instinctual thing for men to do. Sure. I love the thing about Kelly Clarkson having so many women. It's almost because of your connection to someone like Miley or to Madonna

I mean having done so much of that album it would help if one of those kinds of artists also said, I want this woman to be the executive producer. Because it does drive the ship often when it's the artist as well. Yeah. You know, or if there was an artist, even if it's, you know, I don't know, imagine dragons having, you know, a, I don't know what I'm doing that. But like a female executive producer, you have something like that. That would be, that's the moment that would really probably change.

Well, is it about trusting women to be competent to give you hits? I don't know. Yeah. The other thing that's interesting, too, is like, you know, Madonna working with her and doing all those songs with her, we did 11 songs together. She clearly doesn't have any problem. Kind of did. Yeah, I mean, just not really, but like I was in the room with her doing all this stuff together and definitely trying to help her execute a vision. She's certainly not one of those women that's uncomfortable with other women at all.

In fact, she's really empowering. She, you know, she changed my life. Talking to know her. Talk about full circle. I was signed her label when I was 20. So talk about the full circle of like coming back and creating a new, a new way to look at our relationship. Because, you know, when that's your dream when you're young and then you get dropped. Yeah.

You're like, oh, you're like burned. And so talk about full circle 10, 12 years later to go back and help her make an entire album. It was really healing in a way. It was a healing experience for it. actually healed me in a way. It healed my pain from when I was young because I realized I do have value. Even at that time, I felt like I lost my value by losing my record deal. Does it help to have value when you have a giant single with One Direction and Charlie Puth following up all that?

I mean, like, when you start thinking, just when you think, ah, finally I'm consistent, then all of a sudden, like, I feel like there's like a couple more notches on your. belt of just having like these two more really big records. I mean, one call away is like a whole other level than I feel like one direction perfect to a big record. But I think going to one call away, you know, just when you, you know, you go, at least for me, I always worried that my last song is my last song, you know, for sure I'm never going to have another hit again. We all think that.

Yeah. Even if you have four on the chart, it's like, why isn't the fifth one reacting? Yeah, why isn't that one? can't look at it, you know. And then you end up with something like one call away, which is, I don't, you don't know this probably, but I'm sort of obsessed with charts and I was looking at radio research for hot AC. And there are three songs that have 100% familiarity. So there's like a familiarity thing where they call each person like, have you heard this song, have you heard this song? It's not even love yourself is not even 100%.

but one call away is one of them. I didn't even know that. Yeah. So, like, of people who listen to a hot AC, it's 100% familiar to the people that they call out to. Isn't that crazy? You know, I mean, that's just one more thing. Does every time you add to the pile,

does that add more stability, or is it at this point, is it just sort of a different thing? Isn't that a weird catch-22 as songwriter, so that the more that you have to really keep yourself in check because it could be a bottomless, it could be a bucket with a hole in it. You could never get enough sand in that bucket or water in that bucket because it just pours out.

If your bucket's broken, no matter how many hits you have, no matter how much money you have, nobody how much success you have, you want more if your bucket's got a hole in it. So it's really about like making sure you feel okay with yourself without any of it.

And while you want to have more hits, there needs to be a deeper meaning behind why you want to have success. and I try to challenge myself to realize that Why do you need more songs at this point? It's about creating value in the world I think it's about creating a human experience in the world and I have feelings in me that I think other people have to

and if I can make people's lives better or if I can make people's experiences and their pain and their joy more accessible because think about this like how many people go through something like the personal things we've been going through in our lives lately and the struggles we've had that when they lay down at night to exhale they have no way to explain the way they feel no way you and I could get in the shower and make up a melody for our pain

and it comes out naturally and it pours out of us and it heals us but people don't have that and so if we can help them because I remember a time when I was broken and I heard a song on the radio that just dropped me to my knees that now I look back and I'm like, that song?

That's not the song I would pick to be my knee dropping to my crying song but it was. I can't explain why, but it was. Sure. And so what if that's what you do for someone? Yeah, this is like totally less emotional than that but I always felt like when you'd see a five-year-old

singing your song being like that's the first song that they will remember. Yeah. Like mine was Rosanna by Toto. Do you know? Yeah. Like I know that that was it. Or, you know, a bunch of the...

Is that weird? Well, it makes sense why you thrust when you kiss. And then I'm... Then full circle. Yeah, exactly. Right. Well, on that note, I'm going to name five people and you're just going to tell me

what the first thing is off the top of your head. Okay. We're going to start... It's okay. If I need a sip of a song. And because we're close, I'm just going to throw some in there that you can be like, yeah. One word? All right.

Well, we're not really that strict on it. Okay. The Swedes. Handsome, tall, exceptionally good at melodies. Yeah. Diligent, mechanical. Disciplined. Disciplined.

It's very disciplined, yeah. Okay. Beckettishker. Real, full of love, thoughtful, passionate. She's been your manager for a long time, huh? Yeah. Well, interesting at the moment she's not. Oh.

But maybe soon? But maybe. You never know. Things could change. Yeah. Miley Cyrus. Powerful, fearless, wise beyond her years. Stargate.

Intentional in their creativity. They take chances. they are very kind, very generous. I think it's always fun when you and I are near them at the same time. I know. Because they're like, Norway, I've said this about them before. You know, like if six foot four bald Norwegians come towards me, I tend to run because, you know, I'm a Jew.

I'm the other way. I'm like, hi. But like, but the thing is like, they're so nice. They're so lovely. But they're, I think like the Swedes, they are slightly hard to read it first. Yeah. But because you and I are very open arms, loud sort of Midwestern people, we sort of diffuse or soften any edges with Scandies. Yeah.

Yeah. If you had a message for an up-and-coming writer, what would it be? Why do you want to do it? Why? Because if you don't love music and if you don't want to get to, to that place in yourself of like really knowing yourself and really putting yourself out there

in times when people are gonna just I mean you know how it is you get raked over the colds for years sometimes you have to love music you can't be you can't crawl in the mud that long without loving the actual art of songwriting and the actual

little things like you know how it is we get in a room and we all get like goosebumps when we get this little thing we do like oh my God that melody with that part. We're like nerdy about it. You have to love it. And you have to want to whatever your thing is. For me it's more of a

personal, emotional thing. But if you're writing pop dance songs, you have to love those. You have to love that music. You have to do it in a way that is so you that there's no difference between you and the song in a way. There's like a smell test. You can tell when somebody is not, if they think

they're just writing a song to write a song, it doesn't work. We call it a songwriter's Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know when you've heard a songwriter's And you're like, wow, they dotted every eye and crossed every T and they checked every box. But I just don't get a feeling. Learning how to make it dirties. Dirtying it up and making it so real and true. There's a fearlessness and a courage in being honest about yourself through your lyric.

Right. That it's about getting to that place. And if you don't, if you're not doing it for the right reasons, you can't do for that long. Last question is, what's at the end of your maze? What is then goal for you? I think I want to look back wherever the maze opens and look back and know that I didn't leave a stone unturned.

You like walking into the part that's the wrong part of the maze and then walking back out. I think there's something intoxicating about imperfection. Because then you get to fix it. Fixing is the good part. The mud, the dirtiness is actually what helps the flowers grow, right? So like, I don't know.

Sometimes you got to be okay with a little dirt and a little pain and a little gunk, you know. But I think when I look back, I just don't want to have any stones unturned because I think a life with regret is one of my biggest fears. So I think at the end I want to look back and know, yeah, I wrote some good songs and I had some success, but was I a good person?

Did I try to help other people? Did I seek adventure? Did I love deeply? Did I try as my best? you know and did I make other people's lives better did I make people laugh did I write a song that made people cry did I have this amazing human

we're on a ball in the universe did I dance enough did I swirl enough did I spin enough we're out here like I want to get as much as I can out of it so I think when I look back at the opening to the maze I just I just want to be at peace you know I want to have like a peace in my heart

that like this crazy journey I went on was worth it and there's some beauty left Well, I appreciate you coming on to this show. Thanks for having me. You know, it's weird. I prepare for a lot of these. And obviously, I prepared for yours, but I prepared less for yours than almost anybody else's because you and I do so much together. I know.

And I think that not even that we write together a lot. You know, when we're going to D.C. together when we're doing N.M.P.A. things. When we're golfing together, whatever we're doing. Swedish weddings. Swedish weddings. We've got, you know, so much in common. in our personal lives now and our advocacy lives

outside of the songwriting stuff and you know you'd probably five years ago there's no way you'd pair the two of us as doing so many events together and doing so many random personal and career landmarks at the same time

and all these things so it's really exciting to you know we I feel like I have a friend in a totally different way than I have everybody else and there's an unconditional love there. I'm just, I'm so happy that you got to do this. And I'm, I love your boyfriend. He's fantastic. I do too. And you've all, you know, you've been so supportive of me and my family. So, um, much love and thank you. Thank you for having me. Thanks for listening to this

episode of Anne the Writer is. If you want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed, be sure to check out our Spotify playlist or visit our website and Anne the Writer is.com. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe to us on iTunes. You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter. And The Writer Is is is produced by Joe London, edited by Miles Bergsmuh, and published by Big Deal Music. A special thanks to David Silverstein from Mega House Music and Michael White. On next episode, we sit down with Nick Jonas. Until next time, this is Ross Bowling.