And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 42: Nick Jonas

Episode Date: May 21, 2018

This multi-platinum, Grammy and Golden Globe nominated recording artist, actor, and award winning songwriter is a true triple threat. He is a recipient of the Songwriters Hall of Fame's prestigious Hal David Starlight Award, and has released hits such #1 U.S. radio hit, “Jealous” and the sultry chart-climbing radio single, “Chains.” His sophomore solo album ‘Last Year Was Complicated’ which included the platinum hit "Close" featuring Tove Lo, debuted as the #1 selling album of the week. He co-wrote the original song “Home” for the movie FERDINAND that was nominated for a 2018 Golden Globe in the category of “Best Original Song.” And recently he released his new single “Anywhere” with Mustard, which he also co-wrote. As an actor, he garnered unanimous critical praise for his lead role in the 2016 Sundance Film Festival favorite GOAT. He’s appeared in Fox's horror-comedy series, "Scream Queens," starred in the gritty television show "Kingdom,” and appeared alongside Dwayne Johnson, Kevin Hart, and Jack Black in JUMANJI: WELCOME TO THE JUNGLE. Not only is he a talented force to be reckoned with, but he is also a charitable inspiration who co-founded Beyond Type-1, which is a foundation that helps educate, fund research and empower those who are diagnosed with Type-1 Diabetes. And The Writer Is… Nick Jonas!This episode is sponsored by Bandzoogle! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to Season 3 of And The Writer is I am your host, Ross Golan. I've written with hundreds of artists and writers over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life, the industry, politics, composition, whatever. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs, and most importantly, who the people are who write the songs. I'm producing this with the Great Joe London,

big deal music publishing and mega house music management if you want to listen to the songs we discuss in this podcast follow us on our socials find out about special events or buy some of our merchandise go to our website www. www.andthe writer is.com oh and if you enjoy this podcast please rate us on whatever your preferred podcast listening site is we really appreciate that effort Today's podcast is brought to you by Ban Zougal. From Weekend Warriors to Grammy winners, Ban Zougal powers the website for tens of thousands of musicians around the world. So whether you're just starting out or looking for an affordable solution to build a new website

and manage your direct-to-fan sales, you can use Ban Zougal's simple tools to design a website and store that both you and your fans will love. Go to Banzugal.com to try it free, for 30 days. And be sure to use the promo code, ATWI. That's ATWI to get 15% off the first year of your subscription. Welcome to and the writer is. I am your host Ross Golan. Today's writer, artist, actor is a Golden Globe nominated I Heart Radio Music Video Awards International of the Year winning multi-platinum number one singing winner of the

Songwriter Hall of Fame's Hal David Starlight Award. While most kids were in second grade, he was on Broadway. While most kids were in high school, he was selling out arenas all over the world. From the great state of Texas, this quadruple threat has acted alongside the biggest names in Hollywood, sung in front of tens of thousands of fans, written hits with the biggest names in the music industry, and now runs a record label. But the most important, part of today's guest is that he's as philanthropic as he is multi-talented. Not a bad start for someone who's only 25 years old. And the writer is, someone I first met backstage at the House of Blues on Sunset for an Honor Society concert, Nick Jonas. That's the single

greatest intro I've ever heard. Thank you for that. You can just start playing that whenever you walk in the house. I like it. I will, actually. It's good to see you. Good to see you too. That is actually really interesting. So I was in a band and then I was writing with Jared Sharp, the guitarist from S&L, and he knew the guys from Honor Society. And we did Here Comes Trouble.

And that was the... Great song. Thank you. And that was the first time I'd really written outside of being in a band. And the big thing about it was that, one, their manager, is your father. Yes. And they were opening for you.

So we would get to go, we went to, you know, Staples Center and seeing all this. And this was just mind-blowing, because I just didn't even know this world existed. And so to see, like, you know, what it is to write a song in a small space and then see it on a much bigger space. It's electrifying.

It's a crazy feeling. But how long was it after the House of Blues? that they were in Staples, for instance, with us. It was about a year, right? Yeah, that might be right. Yeah, it's just, the timeline of that all is so crazy. And then I love that aspect of, like, the songwriting process as a whole. You write so many songs, and some of those make it out of that small room

and actually see the light of day, and then some don't. But then some actually transcend into a room where other people are singing along, and I think it's the best payoff you can have as a creator, or one of the best, I should say. It's nice that that's how we met. It is. set the foundation for a great friendship, both creatively and, you know, emotionally. Yeah, specifically emotionally. I mean, we cuddle like nobody.

Dude, we cuddling right now. People just can't see it. Okay, so let's start from the beginning a little bit. So you're on Broadway, but before you go to Broadway, you were born. I was born. That was a start. So you're in Dallas. Yeah.

So how do you end up in New York in seven years? So basically my dad was in ministry. So he and my mom met in the registration line at Christ for the Nations, which is a Bible college in Texas. And then they got married right after they finished college and started traveling, playing music. And then my mom had a sign language team. So she was a sign language teacher and sign language ministry.

And they would do this thing all across the country. And they stopped different places. for about two or three years, and then they went to New Jersey and had my oldest brother, Kevin. Then they went to Arizona and lived there for a little while. My brother Joe was born there,

and they went back to Texas to teach at the very school that they met at. My dad was the head of the music department at the school, and so music was always kind of around from the very minute I was born. And my earliest, actually, my earliest memory of music

is being in this drum, sort of like, it was a soundproof drum coffin. I don't know what you would call it, like a cage basically, because, you know, the drummers apparently played very loud during the worship songs, I'm not really sure. But I went in there and started banging around on the drums, and that's the first time I remember making music of any kind. I lived there for three years, first three years of my life, then moved to New Jersey.

My dad became a pastor at a church there. Again, playing in church for my whole childhood, transitioned into, I was at a hair salon my mom. I was seven. years old and someone heard me singing because I would just sing all the time. It's probably really fucking annoying, but I did it. Um, but she was getting her hair done and I was, I was singing and this woman next to my mom said my son is doing a Broadway show in New York right now. Um, you should take your son to his manager if, if he is interested in performing. So I went to see the manager and I walked in and all I knew was pop songs, you know, like the, the golden era of late 90s pop music, uh, and like Celine Dion and Shania Twain. Um, and the manager said,

we need some show tunes, so come back in six months when you've learned these songs. And it was like, sing, sing a song, sing out loud, sing how strong. And a bunch of other ones, and songs from Oliver and other things. And I came back and she heard me sing and acting out and being really dramatic, a seven-year-old. And she sent me on auditions, and I did Broadway shows for five years after that. It's crazy.

There's a long story. Sorry. No, no, that's good. because this next segment is what would Kevin Jonas senior ask Nick Jonas and he said to me to ask you about when you guys were driving to New York

you would always say let's write a song on the way well I you know my dad and I are very close and that's nice that he asked that question but you know shout out Kevin shout out Kevin Jonas Sr. You know I think for both of us

at that time in our in our lives, you know, at this point I was like seven, eight years old starting to fall in love with creating music. My dad was also introducing me to a whole other world. So he always had a real appreciation for pop music and he wasn't, he wasn't kind of cynical about it. He was, he was really a fan of great pop music creators. And then he just educated me going back in time, starting with, you know, things like Carol King and Jackson 5 and Steve. you wonder so transitioning from sort of pop to soul singer-songwriter and just give me the the full lay of the land um any of time you were always if you're working in new york and you're

living in new jersey you still have an hour plus drive in and out of the city so two hours combined travel a day just to become a music student and then in turn write songs and i i again i got to get my my my appreciation to him for being so patient because i'm sure that my ideas at eight or nine years old were not the best. Do you have any idea what your first song was? Actually, I do, and it's a funny story because I thought I wrote a Savage Garden song. I really was convinced that I wrote this song and was so angry. There's two memories I have from my childhood that are so out of character for me, but I think really character building in a sense.

The first is I was in preschool, and I walked in, and this kid was wearing an Oakland Raiders t-shirt, the black shirt with the sort of silver and white, and I had the same t-shirt. and I didn't know at this time that you could, there was more than one T-shirt. So I walked in and I pushed him. So he stole my T-shirt. That's one of my first, like, confrontation memories.

I got disciplined and it was all fine. The other thing was I... Do you know his name? I don't. I can't remember. I remember he had blonde hair, though, and sort of like a bowl cut. Because out there he's probably doing a podcast. Like, this is so crazy.

But I went to preschool. I was totally innocent. I was wearing this shirt. The guy pushed me. He said I stole his shirt. I wasn't it. It's a good lesson to learn, though. There's more than one shirt.

This is a weird day for everybody. Me and my brothers all wear the same size, you know. Had to learn that one quick when you're stealing my shit again. So the other one was basically, I'm listening to the radio with my dad, and the Savage Garden song comes on. I know I loved you. That's them, right? Yeah.

Okay. And I was convinced. It's like, they stole my song. It's like, Nick, I don't. I was like, no, I wrote this song. And I was furious. And also, maybe I did. right maybe I wrote a chorus that was similar

as we all know in the songwriting world it's very possible to come up with a similar melody over similar chords so I'm convinced to this day that I deserve 15% of the song right it's a plausible scenario that we could get a hold of Savage Gardens

there's no way for them to say I didn't write it just so you could call them and just be like this is so weird but I'm pretty sure I wrote this when I was six I love this someone said this to me one time for a real, real songwritery thing. There's no way for me to prove that I wrote it, but there's also no way for you to prove that I didn't write it. And I was like, well, you got me there.

Right. You're on Broadway for five years. Are people, those worlds, as I've learned recently, are not the, they're just not the same people as the pop world, as their record world. I mean, there are some labels that obviously, are based in New York, especially then, you know, where people, you know, maybe on weekends they're going to see shows. So they have, you know, some idea of who these people are. But it's

been a long time since a Broadway actor ends up having a music career outside of Broadway. You know, that was the norm for a while, but it's super rare now. What brings you into the room at a major label when, you know, here's a kid who's on Broadway, but how do you get from there? to getting the record deal. Okay, so I was in Beauty and the Beast at the time. It was my third show that I was doing. I did it for a year. Who were you in Beauty and the Beast?

Play Chip the tea cup. Yeah. So they basically, there's this big secret, and I'm still sworn to secrecy, but the way it worked, and the show was a drink cart, you know, like a tea cart. But you would see the head of the kid playing Chip, but you would not see the body.

So they had, I think it was Copperfield or David Blaners, come and do it. all the magic in the show. And people were blown away by this trick. But the little hint, again, I'm not allowed to even say today, is that you're kind of crammed into this small space. And so after about a year, I outgrew the role.

But Chip the Teacup was one of my shining moments. And also on dates, like when I've said that, played Chip the Tea. There's like this, every time, it's like a winning moment. Yeah, at least, I mean, it's like the most lovable character. It's the most lovable character in the world. Is there a song? out of Beating the Beast that you don't know?

A song out of Beating the Beast that I don't know. Like basically, my assumption is that as soon as someone's like, you know, bonjour, you're like, I got to sing through the next two hours straight. Dude, that's the problem of being a theater kid as a whole is that when you meet another one and you know the same shows, you just sing them for hours and like because it was a job that I did,

even as a kid for a year, it's kind of ingrained in my memory. But no, there's not one that I don't know from that one. when there was the extra songs in the movie, like the one that just came out, I was a little put off because I knew it so well, and then I felt like they had thrown me a curveball I wasn't expecting, and I felt personally offended. Not really.

Right, exactly. Before we go back to the question I asked, but do you think, is the goal to end up back there on Broadway? Yes. I just finished the first draft of a play that I wrote, and we just did the first reading in New York. Cool. I don't know. You know, it's a really tough thing to break ground on a new play. You know, it's sort of, especially on Broadway, it's a really big challenge. I think in a perfect world, I'd see this thing on stage in the next 12 months somewhere, whether it's one of the nonprofits in New York, you know, New York theater clubs, something like that.

Yeah. Or if we do it out of town and see what happens. But I'm really excited about the idea of just creating both, you know, as a musician but also as an actor. then now as a writer in this other space, it's been really fun. So yes, I hope to go back and maybe this will be the vehicle or something else. But to answer your question before, I was Doom Beauty and the Beast. Every year during Christmas time, they put together this CD, well, CD then, but they put together this record called Broadway Cares, Equity, Fight, AIDS. And it's covers of Christmas songs as a relief effort. And I said to my dad, I said, what if,

We write a song for it. He said, I don't think they're going to allow an original song. So let's just try. So we sat down on a Monday, which is the day off that Broadway goes dark, and we wrote this song called Joy to the World, A Christmas Prayer. And then we brought it to the people, the producers of beating the beast. And they went and pitched it to Broadway Carers Eckle-Fights. I said, we'd love to have this original song on the recording.

So the first time in a studio went in, record. I recorded the song, some of my castmates singing the choir parts. Wow. It's a really nice song. How old were you at the time? I was nine. Yeah. And then basically this guy started coming to the church and asking my dad a lot of questions.

Part of ministry goes beyond basically the time that you're there preaching or performing weddings, you know, like funerals, whatever. It's ministering to people on a very human personal level. So he would build these great friendships and relationships with people. and one of the guys that he built this relationship with said he worked at Sony Music Group, which could have meant he was the head of the label, or that he, you know, was a janitor. We don't really know.

We didn't know until he said, you know, I heard the song that your son did, and I would love to play it for one of the A&R guys at the company. My dad tried to have a career in music and country music as a younger man, and has some great stories from that time. So he was very familiar with the lingo and the world and how it all worked. And so he was like, sure, but, you know, who knows? So that guy turned out to be Bob Bolin,

who at the time was head of business affairs for international, for every Sony music group label, Epic, Columbia, at the peak of that era, you know, 2000 to 2004. He played it for David Massey, of all people, at Daylight Records, the imprint on Columbia Records. And David Massey is, to this day, one of my closest friends, kind of, in some ways, a bit of a mentor and a guiding light for me. And our story, like, you know, we were not always working together, but the fact that now I'm back at his label, you know, island. And we have our imprint together is kind of a crazy, it's like, you know, it's like, you know, we're not. small world like full circle thing so that's how i got signed so at nine years old

dave massy is your a and r guy so yeah basically it took about a year he's been your a and r guy for you know all set and done he's gonna end up being yeah that's crazy yeah so i remember the meeting so well i went to the the big building 550 madison avenue um like it's just so funny even now you know this is well 15 years ago basically but so much has changed and For anyone that's like just entering the music business now or kind of like in the last seven years has broken through, like you really would not have even seen this era. I saw like the very last couple years of it, you know, Donnie Einner and the thing, you know. And it was a crazy time. I go up this building, it's the top floor and he's got this office in the corner office.

And it's me, my dad, Bob Bowlin, David Massey. And David just says, can you sing something? I've heard the song, it's great, but I want to see if you can sing for me now. I basically testing if I could sing live. So I started singing Signs, He'll Delivered, Stevie Wonder. And then he was like, wow, this is great. You want to see something cool? And he brought me to this hallway where they just had like these giant drawers filled with CDs.

Oh, my God, those were the best. And you could just walk in and just grab whatever you wanted. So I left with like Oasis, CD, like the, you know, all the shit. And it was such a crazy time. It's just his goodie bags of CDs. If that's all you got out of meetings from CDs, or meetings with label people, it was always worth it.

Yes, it was. So then you get a deal and then they're like, let's make an album. Yeah, so it was a joint venture between daylight, Columbia, and I&O records, which was the home of Mercy Me, the Christian music group that I'm a big fan of. but Jeff Mosley was the guy that had a label there and they had a joint venture to do a Christian crossover pop record for an 11-year-old.

So it's just like a big old challenge. But we recorded this song called Dear God, which actually was released to adult contemporary and Christian radio and kind of had like a little bit of a moment. But I think, you know, trying to make a full album on an 11-year-old kid is really tough because, you know, sort of like, What is it? What's the market? He's not quite old enough to be a teen heart throb.

He's not quite young enough to get away with like singing things that are, or he's too young to get away with saying things that are too mature. So it was just a big challenge. And your literal voice is changing on a monthly basis at that age. It's really complicated to do that. Really tough. When you write with young people too, it's like you have to remember. It's like, these people have no past.

Yeah. So you can't write about. the love you had. You can't talk about anything you had because you had nothing. See, my issue though, was that's what really pissed me off is like, we had a song called

Crazy Kind of Crush, which was basically, it was kind of like the new school answer to like a Jackson 5 thing. Because I got this awesome, amazing, crazy kind of crush on you. I'm 10, right?

Yeah. And I was like, so annoyed I'd be in the car with my dad, so infuriated. Like, it's not. fair. I can sing about more than this. I just come from Broadway where like Le Miz is like look down

like really sad and emotional and they're saying that I need to sing about like having a crush. This is beneath me. So yeah. Do you go through some lay Miz songs right real quick? We should dude I don't know if we have to license him though if I do that but I wrote

I had writing sessions for like a year and a half did an album photo shoot all the stuff got together a pretty good group of songs and some really heavy ones like you know in my effort to like be mature at this young age wrote songs like uh it's one that was called um appreciate opening line of the song there's a man dying on the side of the road won't make it home tonight it's about like this guy right he's like we'll make it home but he calls his daughter right before he goes and says take the time to appreciate

like heavy for some reason that's where my head was at 11 years old but we write these songs and then one day my brothers come in my fucking brothers come in and they go have you heard this switchfoot album i was like no like there's a song called 24 everyone sit down just like that it was like the scene from a will feral movie we're like here i am working my ass off trying to make this album my brother's coming to me you never heard this switch foot album and they sit the whole family down and play us the song called 24 which to this day like just hits me so emotional in a really emotional way because it was the moment that they

stood up and were like, we're also musicians. Which I was just not really aware of. I know they liked music. Joe had done a Broadway show as well, but claimed that he wanted to be more of an actor. They started playing and it was like, oh my God. So they literally played it. They weren't like playing the CD. No, my brother Kevin

played the guitar. Which he played in the church band, but he like applied himself and played it and Joe sang. I was like, oh my God, this is happening. this is going to happen. Again, I'm a kid, right? So, like, the balance is, like,

it, if I was in my dad's position as an adult, I don't know if I could have handled it as good as he did. It was really incredible because it was such a tough moment. Basically, I wrote a song with my brothers the next day.

I was like, you guys are great. Like, that's right. We write this song called, Please Be Mine. My dad calls David Massey and says, the boys wrote a song together that you should hear. We go into the office the next day, play it for David and David Gray, who's my publisher still to this day,

and they both can sit there, and David described it to me as saying basically to himself in his head, like, I got it. Like, it was like an aha moment, you know? And then they wanted to sign all three of us. So my dad takes me to lunch as like a 12-year-old, 11, 12-year-old kid to tell me that, like,

this thing that was so exciting for me, this, like, amazing opportunity was now going to be all of us. And just me wrapping my head around that, I was really disappointed for whatever reason. I think I just felt like, oh, my dream was no longer mine and I've got to include others. And then I, like, came to in the conversation

because he said, like, you'll get to do this with the people that love you most and you'll get to travel the world with people that love you and care about you and you guys are great together. And it was like, yeah, of course I want that, you know. And then we made a record together and it didn't do well.

and then we got dropped by our label but not David Massey we got sort of taken by another executive made his project he championed it and it was not authentic to who we were it was sort of like a punk rock boy band were you still writing all the songs

writing a lot of the songs we wrote about 50% of the album but he had some that from some outside writers that specialized in the pop punk thing that again it was It's the great lesson to learn at that age of like, do what you do. And no matter what, like, stick to what you feel is authentic to you.

And I mean, I'm like straight. This is also the challenging thing was that I was just diagnosed with type 1 diabetes. The church that my dad was pastoring, the whole thing fell apart and was really hurtful to the whole family and became years of like healing from that experience in the church. The place that was supposed to be safest, the sanctuary became really hard for all of us. and so all these things kind of happen got dropped by our label we are staying in a a small two-bedroom home with the four boys my parents and our uncle who was living with us

paying like 700 bucks in rent a month as like a favor from someone that went to the church that was loyal to the family sounded like Game of Thrones loyal to the family but who was you know and we had to my parents dug into their pockets and for my birthday they got me a V-drum kit drum kit and they put it in the basement of this house and the thing that was cool is you

plug the ox cord in and play along to your favorite music and learn how to play the drums well so I play the drums every day for four hours and I would grab a guitar and play for two or three hours and I go sit at our piano which is the one in this house here and write songs on the piano and I wrote four of the songs on that piano and another four with the brothers on the guitar in that house that would become the record that broke us open on Hollywood records that sold 8 million around the world

Yeah It's incredible Okay here's the deal I am technologically challenged I've always been technologically challenged. I barely know how to use this computer to record this thing that I'm recording right now. So I can guarantee you that I cannot build a website. And when I was in a band, I just needed something to help me build my band's website.

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Or is this like... No, no, I didn't know. I went to school. It sounds like you lived in like the greatest childhood of all time. You're like... Yeah, I went to school. Even though obviously there were those struggles, it sounds like where it's like, okay, instead of doing anything that all the other kids do, we're just going to let...

you know, just go and figure this out. Well, actually, I failed music in school, though. I got an F in music in school. My teacher was just, like, annoyed. We got to get that report card and should be framed. I know, I'm framed. Yeah. No, I really did. In second grade, I had a music class,

and I stood up in defiance and said, this doesn't make any sense. Swear I got, this is a true story. I stood up and said, this makes no sense. She was like, what doesn't, Nicholas? And I was like, music is not math music is not math

she's like I don't know what you mean and in my head I always saw music as like a series of good decisions I was like shopping for something like pulling stuff off the shelves and being like this will mix well together and then we go and make it and we see what we have afterwards

and you don't lose if it's not great right like it's just a good swing but I was so frustrated that there was like math to music do you feel that way now yeah still no math Because I still don't know how to do math. First of all, I'm terrible at anything besides simple.

But when you write, you write from a place of still picking off the shelves. You don't write from a place of like, oh, this mathematically is the right place to go. Well, I think it's a balance now. I mean, I think because here's what I think I've learned. The biggest lesson is that the worst thing that can happen in your life and career is to have a hit. Because you then base everything you're doing off of that. and probably not what made it great, but what made it successful,

which I think is really dangerous. And as an artist, you tend to drop into how do I take the business approach and not feel guilty about it when crafting this song. What fans like, what will work at radio, all these different things. When the times where it has really worked for me,

at least, and a lot of people I've talked to, is when they go, fuck it, I'm going to do what I want to do and what feels natural to me. And if the pre-chorus is three bars instead of four, like maybe it's supposed to be and that just feels right I'm going to go with that but you've always been good about you know obviously you have the capability of taking songs from nothing to a song you know like you are in a basement writing on piano and on a

v drum kit and you write a song from nothing and those things sell you know however many millions in the US however many millions worldwide so you know you can do that and then but you've always been one of the artists that everyone enjoys writing with because you're willing to take starts from other places you're willing to like work with I mean the whole point of the

co-writing thing is that you can still be yourself and try not to think of the business part as much and then let the people around you who that's their job in a way

is to try to pull you into that world a little bit and let you still be yourself I had a really interesting year, like in 2010, the brothers and I had just sort of taken this hiatus. I made this side project record that was like a blue-eyed soul thing called Nick Jones the administration.

Yeah, with John Fields. John Fields. Oh, yeah. It was a really fun record to make. But Joe was doing a solo project, and so I sort of, I was a bit delusional in the sense that we were really lucky because, you know, we were working with Disney,

but when it came to our music, they really let us take, take the creative control along with John Fields, who was our producer, and he and I would spend all of our time together crafting what those records were, and it wasn't like a formula on Disney's part, which is literally the songs we were writing and we would make them. So I thought it was just going to be that way everywhere else. So my publisher and management team was like,

you should write for other people. Like Ryan Tedder does it, and he does it really well. And he's obviously brilliant, but I was like still learning. And so I booked out Henson, the A room. and like set up a full like writing situation. That's the room, by the way, for listeners where they did, We Are the World. Yeah, it's huge and obnoxious.

It's not like this small, this small studio. It's like the studio. You don't lock that studio out for like 30 days. Right. It's just not a smart economic decision. Right. So especially when there's no one paying you to be writing these songs, right? So it's just like, yeah, I'll just like book this out

and write a bunch of hit songs. That's what I thought was going to happen. And I didn't get one cut. But I had different co-writes every single day. And that was where I learned how to co-write with people that were not my brothers. Or people in the band, you know. So I, first day was Brian Kennedy.

Wow. And Duane Whitmore, who is, Duane's one of my still favorite people to collaborate with and we've written a bunch of songs with my records and he's a great friend of mine. And then the next day was like, Lady V. and it was like every single day with somebody new and then I got to work with

Glenn Ballard which was amazing in that 30 days we wrote this beautiful song called Daylight still one of my dad's favorite songs I've ever written but they never saw the light of day and so I left thinking like okay cool I just like banged out 30 days of writing songs and I'm gonna like see this

turn around in nine months and be on the radio and just didn't happen and I think Why didn't you release them yourself? Did any of them make sense for yourself? No not really but I think the other thing was like I don't think they were good enough you know so I'm not sure if

yeah like when it comes down to it like maybe the songs weren't they weren't great yeah but it was awesome to learn how to co-write and to be in a spot where I was just able to start being creative with like a forward thinking mind outside of just my little bubble

um going back to your little bubble I remember saying to right around the honor society days and stuff this is when I learned about the Jonas Brothers because at that time there aren't a lot of guys in their late 20s that are listening to Jonas Brothers and so I didn't really have any

like I had no gauge on what this was until seeing what your audience would show up for the opening act because they showed up with their parents and they were engaged from the first song of the opening act and my experience was always being an opening act was that no one wanted to see you and they couldn't wait for you to leave your fans were like loved whoever opened for you

with like the same passion that they could love everything that they could love it was all about like this crazy thing and I remember saying to my bandmate who sucks but as a human but he I remember saying to him I was like you have to understand that these kids are the future. Like you were writing

songs that a whole arena could sing every word to at 14. I was like, this is some LeBron shit. You don't understand. Nobody else was doing that. I remember using that example because it was, you know, it was like

he was the prodigy who never, you know, the last of the guys who didn't have to go to college and just were able to play pro. And you were playing these pro arenas. And you were playing these pro arenas. and all the instruments and doing all this writing

as a primary writer even some with your brother some on your own but you were doing it so young and so professionally like you had no idea there's no way you had like a real gauge on how unusual that is right

or yeah I mean I feel very to this day I feel very lucky just looking back at that you have to be like that's another human you know yeah I mean I wish, here's what I look back in and think, like I wish some of those instincts that were within me

then were still as real now in the sense that I've almost learned too much where I have to work backwards. Like at 14, 15, you're just writing instinct. It's like, my heart's broken. I'm going to write the heartbreak song, but I'm going to write the best fucking version of that that I can. And then, you know, that's what you have.

But it's sort of more raw than crafting the internal rhyme or like the great concept. like how do we how do we like songwriter this out a little bit whereas at 14 and literally like just raw emotion or excitement about something it's like there's no filter of you can't yet you can't do that did you have your heartbroken yeah by who uh by miley yeah i mean it was like high school dude like all of us were it was just it's the whole thing like that graduating class of mylie selina demi myself joe Kevin. It was that group.

That's crazy. Yeah. Do you guys all keep in touch now? I mean, obviously, Demi. Demi, yeah, we keep in touch. Myel and Selena, not so much. I mean, we see each other and it's fine, but we don't stay as in touch as we used to. What is it about those generations of, you know,

the Disney artists that, like, what is it that you learn in that process, that makes everyone so successful? Or is it that they find people really young that are really talented? I think it's tough to say exactly what it is. I think that they've got a really good eye for who will work for their platform.

And then the reality is, say what you want about Disney and a lot of people, I think, after they're done working with Disney, feel that they want to speak poorly about the process. And I've gone through my own, you know, waves in processing what that was like I think that there is an immense amount of pressure

put on children at a young age and that's not healthy but I don't think that that's one corporation's fault I think that that's like the world's fault in a sense and then also we've been watching a little bit of sorry to interrupt

but we were watching we were with Mio who is the head of A&R for Hollywood right now and one of the best things that he says is like he was just really concerned in making sure that his artist that we had in the room

was really well taken care of and that they they've gotten really protective of making sure that their younger artists have you know parenting

when their parents aren't there do you know what I mean you know you as a kid perform it's it's your dream you never really when you get to that level you're not pushed to do it because you almost have to be driven from within

to want to work that hard. It has to be you. It's not a parent, I don't think personally. And all my friends that were in it were not pushed by others. They were really driven. But I think what makes it challenging is the expectation

that because you work so hard, you do so much that you have to be an adult when you're still learning really valuable life lessons at such a young age. And so that pressure was there, but thankfully, you know, I had my parents and Phil McIntyre, my manager, from day one, as really, you know, sort of the real foundation

and understanding that it's okay to, like, not be okay. Yeah. You're that young and to learn and to work through it, you know. When you did the administration album, I remember that going around and being like, this is like such an adult record. And it mean that and like not that the stuff before was, an adult but even the players around you were adults so there was like a different kind of like

i don't want to say like sophistication but it felt like it was like it was coming from a different place were you saving those songs did you want that to sound the way it did and how did you feel about like the response to that album having just come off of you know this crazy sort of Jonas brothers run um i i loved making the record i feel like part of it was just needing the process of like, you know, setting up isobo boost and the whole band recording at the same time, little to no overdubs, songs that were like unapologetically bluesy and kind of left to center. I think that the reception to it was good. I mean, I don't know, I kind of have lived and balanced disappointment and respect from my peers like my entire career.

and it's still something... Are those the opposites? What do you mean by that? I mean, like, I think I have an unrealistic expectation at times or did then, especially, of people's view of my work or, like, their... Or that even, like, accolades matter, you know? I think that one of the things that was tough...

And the way I was talking about hit songs being almost a bad thing in some ways. Like, we were nominated as the brothers for Best New Artists in the year that Adele... won and that kind of mess with my head a little bit because i started to play towards critical acclaim and like thinking that was important um i think it's sort of naive to think that we would have actually won that at all ever you know why uh when because adele because adele yeah right um no but also just i feel like we had a lot growing to do yeah um and even now so you know i've i've had to always balance my view of my own work and my hope for its level of critical acclaim.

Just manage those expectations and stay focused on the work and not necessarily like the result afterwards, you know. Sure. Because you're only going to be disappointed, I think. The time from the administration to jealous is kind of like a long span for you. Yeah. You know, because everything else was like this year, this year, this year. there's always something coming out.

Then you kind of like have like a moment of kind of regrouping, it seems like. Yeah. You know, how soon after administration did you start thinking like, okay, let's redefine who I am and going in for, you know, doing that session with Nolan and Simon, you know, doing, like what was the process to go into this next phase? The process was that I went back and did Le Mizz over in the West End. Who were you in this time? Marius.

So I did that and I learned how to sing again. You're no longer chip. Yeah. Exactly. It was more mature things as a whole. But I learned how to sing and sustain my adult voice, which was a really good lesson to learn because on the administration album, especially you can hear it.

I was singing through my voice changed so much that I think I did like some, just like too much growling and like work mechanisms to sing higher notes that were a bit unhealthy for the voice um so i did that and like again just like relearned how to sing and it was great and then i uh had my first like real adult relationship that was really uh important as well and incredibly uh creative relationship and was another artist and was very inspiring to like sit and talk music and not feel like embarrassed or like it was like a i don't know it was just really sort of... Were you in London during all this? No, I was back here after that.

And then I went on a... With this person, when a songwriting retreat to Bali and had like one of the best experiences ever there. And so songwriting and like just creating started to become a passion again. And then my brothers and I started working together again. We went in like a couple tours. You could really feel it was like the last hurrah. And like this shit was falling apart.

I mean, it was just not... Emotionally or what do you mean? Everything. Creatively, emotional. We were trying to write new music, but we were clashing because I was like kind of steamrolling a bit and was pretty adamant about producing it all as well. Did you know that at the time? No, looking back, I can see that it was that. But, you know, it just also was just no longer authentic for us to be making music to get.

It just didn't make sense anymore. And we all kind of wanted different things. That blew up in our faces. But I had started like recording some stuff that I was sort of pushing to a side. the song called Santa Barbara, which was on my first solo record, and another one. And I just was like, something's brewing. And at this point, this was years later,

the sort of timelines all messed up. But I just was also getting really into acting again, doing some stuff in that world. And the band split up, and I led that conversation, it was really, really tough couple days of working through what that was going to be like. We had spent a lot of our own money. because we were no longer with Hollywood

and trying, and just nothing was working that we were doing put out a single, it didn't work. Like, it's a really tough moment for us as brothers and also as a band, obviously. So we finished that. I'm in New York. At this point, I hadn't seen David Massey in a couple years. We'd like had lunch once, but that was about it.

From the time we left Hollywood, which was almost eight years earlier. Or not Hollywood, Columbia. And he wrote me an email and said, are you okay? I'm seeing the news. Would you like to meet for lunch? And I sat down with him at lunch and talking about, you know, like music.

And I was sort of just so, like, jaded at this point. I was like so sad and just like disappointed with everything not working and feeling like, you know, creatively I want to do something weird and like not care of it was successful or not as a mechanism to set myself up for failure, you know, and be okay with it. and he was like because I said maybe I'll just do like a producer name

like a different name and just fucking put it out you know he's like but don't you want to like travel the world and write like hit songs and be like a big star I was like yeah yeah I do

and he's like okay he's like well let's do this and was like okay and I played him Santa Barbara and push Yeah Which was

Saw a row chase over there And he was like I'm all in I'm ready to do this with you I think we have an idea of the direction He's like Just get in there And like just start writing

Just like write right right Right right And I like Second write a co-write that I did for the thing Was with Simon and Nolan And we're like Start this one idea I was loving this happens

You start the one idea You get like the verse and chorus And I'm kind of ADD And I'm like Let's just like go like walk around for a minute and like see i don't know it's a good idea but it could be better so i got outside and they asked me about like what happened last night like ah man at this bar right and this guy i think it's like blatantly like hitting on my girlfriend and it was like really

annoying and they're like yeah it's i was like you know and i just talking about it and i sort of worked through it in the conversation was like it's totally fine i'm not like concerned she's going to leave me and then the song just kind of wrote itself when I was like jealous was born out of this conversation we went back in and finished it like in 10 minutes and basically just get it out um and I remember thinking when it was done that's pretty good yeah but I wasn't like number one smash right I was like yeah it's good it's cool and I walked into my manager Phil's office and was like check this out we just did this and he like stood up and he's like you did it

I was like, do what? Right. You wrote a hit. I was like, I don't know. I wasn't convinced until it was on the radio. And I was like, okay, maybe. Yeah, I didn't know. But this is one of those things where what makes it cool, you know,

coming out of everything you had been through, is that the lyrics in it are of kind of like somebody who doesn't care about writing hit songs. It doesn't sound manufactured. The lyrics in the middle of that chorus, just to start the chorus are kind of bizarre. They're really cool, and they're super visual, which is really exciting.

But you didn't start off by saying like... People are like, what are you saying? Turn my chin music up. Which is like in baseball, you know. Yeah. Yeah, but no one really got that. Yeah, but I wasn't trying to write a hit, is the moral of a story.

Because I feel like you fail when you do that. But then the other great lesson in this time was in the same week that I wrote, jealous, I recorded my first outside song. Yeah. And I'd never done that before. And it was so, I was so uncomfortable. I was like, I felt a bit like embarrassed almost like, like, I can't do this myself. Like people don't have faith in me. Like I felt like it was my fault or something that I had to like record an outside song. And, but that sound did pretty well too. That song did okay, yeah. But also like Chase and Evigan and I become very close friends over the, like,

the last couple years and like this friendship was born out of me being open enough to say like okay I can define a template of what works for me but I also need to trust in these incredible creators around me like there's so many brilliant minds and you never know where that next hits going to come from so like be open to anything and uh then I was like how many hits did I miss because I didn't record songs right like fuck uh so yeah I recorded chains that week and like recorded it my own studio because I was kind of like embarrassed and then sent it back to him and he was like he was pumped and then we met and like talked about it now it's so funny because like someone sends me a song I'm like please send all the songs I was upstairs when they were

writing chains downstairs oh really yeah and we were upstairs we wrote this song that ended up being a single for somebody on RCA and uh it wasn't it wasn't great um and I uh I remember walking downstairs and there's those moments where you're in a room and you're like like, so it wasn't a writing camps really but it was Amar and Avigan and Danny Parker

were downstairs and I forget who I was with upstairs but you come downstairs and you're like this room's cool this room's cool whatever it's all fine and you kind of I don't know there's a little competition that happens in that environment you know you want to write the best song of the day or like whatever it is and you know

when you're in those environments where there are all these really good writers, they're just days where you walk downstairs. Like, fuck. I'm literally, I'm lessen, you know, 20 feet away from a hit as being written. And just because of the luck of the draw, I'm sure I would have ruined

the song. But like, you know, just that thing of like you walk in, damn it, it sounds so much better or working on. You just kind of like have like an ego and you walk down stairs. Play me what you're working on it. It's really good. have felt that numerous times.

And also, it's the uncomfortable thing in like a camp setting when you feel like you got the vibe. You're like, I've got one. I fucking got it. And then someone comes in and goes, Woo! Just got the single! Yeah.

Sick. Because then your great song is like not great anymore. Yeah, it's not the single. You know what's really cool? And I've said this because we've now interviewed a lot of your co-writers. But one thing that's really true about both jealous and chains is that the industry uses those still as markers for artists.

That's cool. Like behind your back, people are constantly saying, like, we need something that's like, I mean, the chain sort of drop-ish thing kind of thing became a thing that everyone tried to emulate for two years, it felt like. and jealous as a first single like oh we need that kind of song that like doesn't it's that it's something that you can't control at being the artist and the writer and the and the human around it but people want it want these songs so you are at the epicenter of something i think levels is really interesting for as a fan because it didn't do as well as something like close or chains yeah but

I love that song. It's probably one of my most important live songs. Why didn't that work? I don't understand. I think this is something you can attribute to the moment that streaming became really important. Like that time, which I guess was 2015, it was like all of a sudden streaming was the thing, right? And it was like just that balance.

It was just a crazy moment. And so I think it, you know, it was, was, was. close to top 10 at radio maybe? I don't know. But it never, like, fully broke open. And it never really fully broke open at streaming until now. Like, it's picking up on streaming years later.

Yeah. In the same way that Close has outstreamed all the other songs. And it's like... But that was it? I mean, that was a top 10... Yeah. That was... That was exciting to watch that one go

because also another great example of, like, I walked into a camp room where, like, they're like, you know, I'll, like, jump, around to different rooms. And I was in with Sean and Mattman and Robin with the other room. But I was Sean and the Wolf Cousins guys and stuff. I walk in the room, it's Julia and Justin and Matt man and Robin.

And they've got the chorus written and like some scatting on the verse. And it's Julia singing it. So it obviously sounds amazing. Yeah. And I was like, I would feel rude to like jump in now because you guys are like locked into something and it's like just just go like this is great I love it I'll record it whenever it's done if you let me but like just go and so they wrote close which is like another great you know record and a time when it's important to just be like

as creative as I can be I also want to be able to be like there's amazing people around me that's why they're here you know but this is that that personality is why and I hope other artists are listening to this because that's why the writing community embraces you and wants to work with you is that they know that their ideas will be heard one way or the other and that it's about the collaboration and if it means that you add to it don't add to it or whatever the situation is you're not trying to force something that isn't there and you're also trying to accept things that like the opportunity for you know an artist to have a hit song to record is super rare.

It's that same thing, the whole crux of this podcast of there's, you know, millions of singers, thousands of artists, and only 40 songs per genre at a time. And, you know, when those hit songs show up,

to be like, well, I'm not going to record that is really probably not a smart move. Because it can help launch how you then create the next nine songs as a writer. Or it can, like,

you know, re-establish any of that. I'd never want to be the, like, the he-passed story on that one. Right? Like, oh yeah, can you believe that so-and-so passed on that record? Like, I'll just always cut a vocal and be like, if it's not right at the end of the day, I'll know once my voice is on it, but I don't want to be like the after photo. Or like the before photo, I guess it would be. And the after. Has that happened where a, yeah, a hit song came across. You're like, I don't, that's not me. No. Yes. Yes. There was a time when there was a song that became a really big hit that I was sent and I just said confidently I don't think this is right for me the direction that I want to take doesn't feel right and even when it became a hit I wasn't there going

I should have I was I was still sure that I made the right choice which I'm that's that's the best example yeah but there have been records that I wanted that I didn't get and they went to other people and one time in particular where it was like taken from me and I was not happy about it but the song was not a hit so so ha ha ha ha all of you look what you get um okay a few more things you have a golden globe nomination you know I know that you guys just just lost on it but they lose for losers you have a nomination that's pretty cool that seems like a kind of a bucket list situation that was a big moment I was very

very happy about that and to get to share that with Justin and Nick was just amazing Justin Trancher Nick Monson and that song was another one too where it was like I'd been working they gave me the description of what they needed

for the movie Ferdinand and like the tone emotionally and also the tempo and everything else and I was like all right this is kind of foreign I did this back of a day when my brothers and I had a TV show I would write songs

for the TV show with other covers writers. My brothers were both busy with other things. As in not wanting to be. We shot all day, right? We shot 12 hours a day and then I would go to the studio for another four or five hours to write. And they were like, no, like just take the lead. I'll do it. So my, you know, it was a lot. And I was also studying to, uh, for the Chesape, which is like the California proficiency test. So I was to be done with high school. So I was like a lot of work at this moment at 16. But anyway, they said, we need this kind of song, this kind of emotion.

And I tried like four times to write the song, and I just could not get it right. I was like, we'd get like the verse and the chorus. And I was like, guys, let's go to something else. This isn't right. It's not, whatever. And I walk him with Justin, I give him the basic pitch of the thing, show him some visuals for the movie. And we just started talking about, you know, what it feels to be accepted, what it feels to be loved. And for both of us, that's home, you know.

So we went on the live room with the acoustic guitar, dad, gad tuning. Started writing the song. And then Nick produced up the track. We recorded it all on a day, and they loved it at the studio, so it was great. It's awesome. How do you balance all the acting stuff happening now? I mean, you have now been in, you know, massive TV shows and movies.

Yeah, it's a crazy moment. I'm not going to lie. I think that do you feel the pull towards acting over music, or is it, is that not a nice? ever going to be the case being that. I feel the pull towards just being creative, to be honest, right now. Like I'm in a moment where I don't have the next acting project lined up, per se. But I've got a general sense.

You just finished something, right? Didn't you just finish anything? Yeah, I finished a movie at the end of last year called Chaos Walking, which is a book series. They adapted into a film series, I think. And then Jumanji, I think the success of Jumanji was a humongous surprise to me. I mean, I saw the movie and thought it was great. I expected maybe like 3, 400 million worldwide, but to see that we just crossed 900 is insane.

It's so crazy. And people really love the movie. So I think it's the first time I've been a part of something where there's so much passion and love for it. Like, Kingdom's TV show I did, was on a smaller scale just because the audience was limited and the exposure of the show was limited. But people really loved it, but it was a smaller group.

This feels like a bit more of like a cross the board. People really liked something that we made and that feels really good. But as I mentioned before, I'm writing a lot. So I'm on like scripts and a play and everything else. So I feel kind of like I'm in a really good moment of feeling a bit settled and content with kind of whatever happens. In the past, I've felt like more pressure

to find the next acting project and then what's the next single? And right now I'm kind of comfortable, but not in a bad way, not staggered, Just comfortable. Good. I'm going to list five people, and you're just going to say the first thing that comes off the top of your head. Okay.

Phil McIntyre. The best. That's your manager, by the way. My manager, Phil McIntyre is the best in the whole business. American Idol producer as well. Oh, wow. Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

Good for him. Demi Lovato. Also the best. No, but Demi Lovato. Fearless. I think that's the best word I can think of. Are you liking having a record label with her? Yeah, I mean, it's a really great thing to have control,

but also collaborate with Island and the team there, because we trust them. And it's been great for both of us. Joe Jonas. Joe Jonas. He's free. He's just a free spirit. And I envy that in him.

I mean, we're best friends, and we live together as close as you can get, basically. I admire and kind of envy his ability to sort of transcend above things and just be so free and carry himself with so much joy and love for everyone around him. And it's a beautiful thing. You got to like as somebody in the industry to see the success that you guys have had independently of each other is just so rad. It's pretty cool.

It's like it's exactly. It's so a storybook. It's kind of like an offensive storybook. It's like, come on. If you sent that in in a script, they'd be like, yeah. Yeah, I would never happen. One of them doesn't do it. You know?

Not like they both end up with number one songs. That's just not how that is supposed to work out. Kevin Jonas. Kevin Jonas. He's kind, very kind and so just thoughtful. I mean, it's just amazing to see what fatherhood does to a person, I think. And he's got two beautiful girls and a loving wife. and he's just a really thoughtful and kind person

and I love him to death, admire him a lot. And David Massey? David Massey. I don't know, kind of a guiding light. That's the best way to describe it, I think. You know, from the time I was 11 years old in his office, asked me to seeing CB Wonder to now. I'm able to get more real with him on a personal level

in a short amount of time than anybody else I know, really. And I think what's beautiful about the head of a label like that is that he sure he cares about the work and all that, but he really cares about his artist's state of mind first and that they're healthy and happy. And he's willing to see their vision through in a way that I don't think a lot of head of labels would do. Right.

I just want to let you talk a little bit about your foundation and what you've been doing over, because I feel like that's probably the most important thing that you do. No offense to the music and acting and all the success. Like you actually change, humans' lives and I think it's important that people know how they can help you achieve those goals. Yeah, so I mentioned briefly before, but I'm going to type one diabetic. It's diagnosed at 13. And about a year after I learned how to manage the disease, I decided that it was time that I speak up

about it and let people know how they can get involved to help raise awareness but also money for research. So I kind of raised my hand and said, I'm a diabetic and want to be open about this and help people that are living with this disease and bring some encouragement some light. And a couple of years ago I teamed up with a few other co-founders and started Beyond Type 1, which is an amazing organization that kind of enriches people's lives with diabetes and talks about the management of disease in a really personal way that doesn't feel like clinical. You know, it's sort of more human. And then in addition to that, we offer a lot of grants to another, other organizations,

and both in the management side of things, but also in the eye towards a cure. So beyond type 1.com has all the information. You can check that out. Also, the Instagram is great. It's been fun and really encouraging to be open about it and know that I'm not alone myself.

Is there any information about, when you say that looking for a cure, is there any information as far as like who's been pushing that, you know, research and who's like is it is there hope for that i think there's there's hope i mean i still think it's a little ways away yeah you know there's a lot of things that would have to happen uh not just the research aspect and and you know the science of it all but but the money i mean i think it would be very expensive and i think that administering a cure also comes with uh you know shutting down

what is a huge business as well as far as the management of disease right now so i'm kind of curious what that would all look like and I hope that there's really good people in the mix that will prioritize the cure for people living with a disease because it is not it's not fun yeah and it makes life really challenging and if it's not managed the right way it's life-threatening you know so I am hopeful but I'm also bit of a realist about it and and I think you know that

balancing the optimism with with the reality is is key Yeah. What's advice you'd give to a young songwriter? Advice I'd give is take really big swings. I like this idea that every time you get up to the plate, you just swing hard. And a good batting average is like 300, right? And so if out of those 10 swings, there's two or three that are awesome or like a good next step, that's a good ratio. and I think I probably I'm more towards like the 175 batting average

but I live a really happy life because I'm getting up to the plate and just trying to take big swings every time Well thank you for doing this podcast Thank you for having me It's enjoyable You know I've said it along the way But the fact that you're such a staple

In the songwriting community Says more about how you treat songwriters than anything else because there are a lot of successful artists that we can name that the writing community despises.

Yeah, I'm sure. You know, and they don't want to go. I think I know a few of those are. Yeah, I'm sure. And it's like, it's just always enjoyable. Nobody walks away from hanging out with you and it's like, man, that was a really,

that was a shitty day. Do you know what I mean? And that's encouraging. but that's all you want is to have a good time and to be around somebody who has your success but it always feels like, you know, it always feels like home. It always feels really relaxing.

It's a good day and everybody walks away, fulfilled that that was their experience. I mean, we walked in and you were just, you had just gone basically on vacation with Joe here, you know, on this writing camp with Thomas Rett and Sean and, you know, like just like the greatest, writers in the world for a weekend at a at a at a ranch and it's just like you're you're just you've always been one of the guys or you know one of the people in the in the room and everyone

just enjoys being around you so thank you for cool to hear thanks for being part of it you're the man you're all right fun cool thanks for listening to this episode of and the writer is if you want to hear music from this songwriter i just interviewed be sure to check out our spotify playlist or visit our website at and the writer is.com. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe to us. You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter. And The Writer Is is produced by Joe London, edited by Miles Bergsmough, and published by Big Deal Music. A special thanks to David Silberstein from Mega House Music and Michael White.

On next episode, we sit down with Dave Hodges. Until next time, this is Ross Golden.