And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 5: Justin Tranter

Episode Date: February 27, 2017

One of the most in-demand songwriters in the industry, this songwriter is a fierce force to be reckoned with. With notable cuts on Justin Bieber's smash hit "Sorry", Nick Jonas' "Close feat. Tove Lo", and Maroon 5's newest single "Cold feat. Future", he has quickly and justifiably become one of the busiest creative minds in Los Angeles. Not even to mention his penchant for fashion and political activism. And the writer is…Justin Tranter! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey guys, this is and the writer is with Ross Golden. I've written with hundreds of writers and artists over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life and the industry, politics, composition, whatever. If you ask me, songwriters are some of the most worldly and intelligent people I've ever come across. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs. And most importantly, who the people are who write the songs. I'm co-producing this with my friend Joe London, who's nominated for a Grammy this year.

He records every interview and makes sure we sound like angels. So if you like what you hear, please rate us on iTunes or whatever your preferred podcast listening site is. If you want to hear the songs from The Writer in this podcast, make sure to check out our playlist on Spotify. It's And The Writer Is. Or go to our website, and The Writer Is.com. And you'll be able to listen to the songs there. That way you can follow along with the conversation when we get into talking about certain songs. Anyway, so this guest this week is Justin Tranner.

He's probably the hottest writer in the music business. We did this interview less than two months ago, and since then he's released the Imagine Dragon single Believer, Julia Michael's debut single Issues, Maroon 5 single Cold featuring Future, and Lincoln Park single Heavy featuring Kiara. And he's even joined the name. National Board of Directors for Glad. So he's basically impossible to keep up with.

But that's what makes him great, is that he's actually an influencer in both fashion and in music. And when I say music, he's influencing artists. He's influencing writers. He's a big part of the LGBTQ community. He's a big part of a lot of people's lives out here. So we're really excited to have them. A couple of things you should know about this podcast as you listen.

we talk about Rivers, who's from Weezer, it's Rivers Cuomo. We talk about Tricky Stewart, who did songs like single ladies and umbrella. And we talk about Katie Vinton, who is a publisher at Warner Chapel, who is instrumental in breaking both of our careers. We talk about Joe Jonas, the lead singer of DNCE. We talk about Matt Manna-Robin, who's a production duo he works with Often. They did hits with DNCE and Selena Gomez and most recently the new Imagine Dragon single. We talk about Raja, who's Raja Kumari, who was his co-writer on Fallout Boys Centuries. Again, if you enjoy this podcast, please take the time to rate us on iTunes or whatever your preferred podcast listening site is.

And if you want to follow along to the music, go to our Spotify. playlist, which is on our website of and the writer is.com. Thanks again, and here is, and the writer is. Welcome to And The Writer Is. I'm your host, Ross Golin. Today's writer is an influencer. He started as a frontman of a band that toured with Lady Gaga, and he's also been a stylist and a fashion trendsetter, which explains how he has set trends in the pop music community as well. His advocacy, politics, and generosity are infectious and inspiring. And the writer is, my fellow theater school classmate from 1987, Justin Tranner. Theater school classmate from 87 makes us sound like we graduated college in 87.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know. We were seven. We were seven. We were seven. Seven, seven, which we haven't matured all that much since then. But you were saying right before we were um you know we could go into the theater school but I am actually interested in you finishing your thought um we're talking about how you know radio is going to be gone in five years five-ish you know what

I think you're right but why do you say that well I mean it's a weird thing right because I actually do love radio I love getting in I don't know how to drive so I love getting in an Uber I don't get into my own car but um I love getting an Uber and like hearing the radio and they always have like hot AC on an Uber's which is like fabulous like oh this is like what like housewives listen to it's always nice to like hear and educate and but I just think that

you know kids are it's just proven fact they're listening to radio less and less radio still is currently the best way to break a record radio still is king but I think that just pretty soon I mean I think you're right my thing is like is the

and we'll get into this too but is Trump America listening they're not listening to this podcast either do you know but they're Probably listening to radio. As liberal people, we have to always remember that we won. Right. So just because Trump, the system that was to protect slave owners, elected Donald Trump,

doesn't mean that this country is Trump supporters. No, no, no, I know. But I'm saying that if that, if 43% of the country listens to radio and, you know, and they're unlikely to progress, it's not like radio dies completely or does it. I think it's... Well, I mean, if we're actually going to talk about Trump's America, he's going to destroy all major media. Interesting. So, radio's definitely going to fucking die.

Interesting. How does his influence change radio? Well, I think his influence already is changing the way that everyone respects major media. And radio is a major media. Right. I mean, actually, and to your point, like, not, well, actually, to every point. Like, the super-duper Trump supporters definitely aren't listening to the radio. They're listening to crazy crazy.

They're listening to podcasts, just really crazy ones. Interesting. About like, you know, killing gay people and black people and, you know, Naziism. So I think that in Trump's America, actually radio will die out even faster. Right.

So the point being that as songwriters, because, you know, if you don't own the master or if you don't, you know, producers will have a royalty, some sort of royalty point on the master. As songwriters, we don't have that. Radio is our best friend. Radio is the only way that songwriters make money.

Right. Without radio, we all have to get smart and figure out how the hell we're going to make money off of it. And I guess that one of those ways is to fight the system and make sure that streaming starts paying us, which it isn't Spotify's fault. It's the label's the label's fault. Everyone wants to blame Spotify because it's really hard to blame your friends at a record label, but it's their fault. They're the ones who have the deals with Spotify and they're the ones that aren't sharing with any of us how much they're actually making. Sure. There's actually a lot of money.

I'm not a huge fan, and if he listens to this, I'd be happy to have him on, but I'm not a big fan of Bob Lufsets because I think he's so old school and he's such not a progressive. But his comment when he talked about this was that there's so much money in the music industry, and if you're going to complain as a songwriter, it's because you're not really realizing that you can, or basically, essentially, complain your way through the next 20 years about how good it used to be. But there's a lot of money to be made, and you could do something like start a podcast. You can do something like do a deal with whoever and create your own masters.

Exactly. So there's no doubt that there's money to be made. You just have to find it. Well, no, and complaining about, you know, blaming the internet for ruining the music business is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. We ruined the music business. Well, we did it. We were all struggling songwriters. I didn't have a fucking penny to my name until a year ago.

Right. Right. The internet's the greatest tool since the wheel. And if the music business couldn't figure out how to make money off of the fucking wheel, then that's their fault. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Everyone has made billions of dollars off the internet.

It's the label's fault for not catching up. They're stuck in their ways because it's a total boys club and they thought that the boys club was always going to be there for them. But then actually the geeks on the computers who hate the boys club beat the system. So the issue lies with not wanting to progress. So for me, it's like I'm so interested in other ways to find the money.

And I think the other issue, too, is to never complain. Like, there's nothing worse than, like, when they send songwriters to Washington, D.C., they send songwriters with hits, which is the dumbest thing you could ever do. Because rich people complaining about not being richer is horrifying. Right. When... Actually, I'm a huge fan of title. Title's amazing.

But when a bunch of multi-multi-finding... 100 millionaires got up there and saying we're going to launch titles so that we can finally really get paid and it's like, wait, we can all Google your net worth which is probably like somewhere close to the truth.

Like you should be complained. The thing like if I was ever asked to go to D.C. to speak about songwriting issues and blah blah, I would bring like a brand new songwriter with me. Someone who had like some fierce girl who in her basement put a song on Spotify and got

200 million streams. I bring her with me and be like, you want to help the middle class, make sure this girl gets paid. We've talked about, because I went to D.C. and I talked to a few people, and I'm like you.

Like, it's, you know, not that long ago, I'm foreclosing on a home. So, like, to be in this place is really shocking how fast that switches. Yeah. And to go and at least sort of tell that story. Right.

Helps to be to say, but that, But it's fortunate that I sell air for a living and then I'm probably on the, I'm probably one of those last people to make a living off of radio, you know? But, you know, what we wanted to do is bring people who had had a hit that they knew that are currently driving Uber stuff. Because, you know, to essentially show that the depreciation of the value of music, rather than showing, because there was always people who were struggling.

Right. And who were never making money. Right. And actually, there's more money to be, one of the issues is this. The studies have shown that with Spotify and with Apple Music, that certain copyrights are going to last longer. Right. Because the trail's going to be a lot longer because let's say that you look up, you know, flirt Elise and you just look up, well, what's, you know, you type in Mozart, this pops up and it's going to be whatever's been most played, people keep clicking on it. Of course. And they'll click on it in perpetuity.

Right. So that copyright's going to keep making, well, that not a copyright, but that recording is going to make money in perpetuity. So songs like Sorry or whatever, you know, that 10 hits you have this year, those are still going to have a longer trail. Right. It's just they're not as valuable. Right.

So the guy, the girl at home, like if you, I don't know if you've, I was working with Lewis's Child, you know, and they're 19 years old. Right. Brilliant. And to them, they don't see any problem in the, music industry. Right. Well, because they own those masters. They own their masters and they basically created everything from

from scratch at home and they're like, wow, you can break from... Well, because here's the thing. There is no issue with the music business. There is no issue with the record business because records are over. Right. So that's where the music business, the music business is amazing. Right. The record business is over. And it's,

we love labels. Labels have changed our lives. Labels are fucking awesome. We just, labels have to progress. They have to, they have to treat the people right who deserve to be treated right, and they have to start being forward thinking. Also, the last thing I want to say in the issue, too, is like the, it's not that

I want more money. Of course. It's that, it's why is some businessmen who didn't create this piece of work. Why are they making my money? That's the issue. I want that money so that my dad can stop working. I want that

money so that I can give more to ACLU. I want that money. I want that money so I can give more to the HRC and glad. I want that money because why do they... And so that's where I think people get mad. Like, I do. It's like rich songwriters shouldn't complain about being richer. However, my point is like,

but why does some executive in Sweden get my money? Like, that's weird. Like, I... Like, so, like, he can have it all, but I can't complain. Like, that's where the weird... The weirdness that's in the lawsuit that happened from Irving-Azov this week.

So glamorous. Yeah, I mean, 4% of radio revenues going to songwriters and no other business really works that way it's too bad that all this stuff happens

you know after a year like this you kind of wish this happened two years ago so that way we could fight for it yeah no it is it is hard

but also it's hard to even talk about this stuff when like you know we're entering a Nazi era you know like right

it also so makes me feel really dumb like even complaining about the music business right the record business intellectual

property is not the priority of this president or this Congress. And it's like, you know, it was tough when there was the big thing with the DOJ and songwriters and all the different stuff for the Irving A's off. Like, I can't share that on my Facebook feed or on my Twitter. I just sign up

for Twitter because I hate it, but I just because everything's happening in the world had to do it. But like, I can't share those things because like that's not the issue, you know? Like I was just home for my mom's 70th birthday, which is amazing. And my family's extremely yeah mom's mom happy birthday

my family is like extremely progressive and extremely liberal and I'm so insanely grateful to be born into that family being the person that I am but we have lots of family friends who we love who actually voted for Trump and that's so shocking and just not that look

because obviously the shocking part you know we can we can blame a lot of people and the media is at fault for more than the maybe the worst part of this whole thing is that Trump the whole time was right when he was like the media liberal, they totally didn't even notice that they were losing. And like, it's, it's shocking that, uh, it's still shocking that we didn't know.

But the media was stacked against Hillary. She, more than any politician, she had twice as many negative stories reported on and published on her. So like, the media is liberal, but they're, they still hate women, you know? So it's like, if it's still a, it's like, let's go back. Because it's just so it's clear, you know, you, um, We grew up probably about 30 minutes from each other, you know, and I grew up in a fairly homogenized area.

You know, Chicago is super segregated. It's like white and black, and there's like a line in the middle. And I grew up in an area where it was almost all Jewish, and then there were like a couple of black families that were children of professional athletes. Right. So, you know, all things considered, it was a really white area. Right. You know, where you were raised must have been even whiter because you're further from the city, I think.

Yeah. Right? And it was probably more conservative. It was like farmland. Yeah. My parents were two of four registered Democrats in our, like, district. That's crazy. Really crazy.

How did they, why would they live there if they were? Just because they found like a piece of land that they could afford. I mean, one of my favorite things is when people said that they would, they want to move out of the country. If Trump wins, someone said, no, you. moved to a swing state. Right. So you can affect it. Yeah.

If you really want to do something, you don't go to Canada. You go to Missouri. Yeah. So we were like, it was like, you know, literally like a pig farm across the street. Now it's all like just gentrified suburbs. But when I was a kid, it was a literal pig farm, which is so shake. Like me, like a pig farm is glamorous. But I went to high school downtown.

So in the, in the farmland, I got, the bullying was so fucking bad. Like, like, bad. like physically bad. So my freshman, I went to one semester of public school for freshman year and the bullying was the worst that had ever been.

It was my whole childhood, but at that moment it was like, were you already out at that point? I wasn't out, but I was like, it was clear. Just, I was exactly who I am today. How old were you when you, when you were, you know, in second grade,

were you like, oh yeah, I like guys? I never really like had the full on realization, but like I would definitely like have crushes on guys but just not understand what it was. Sure. And I was always, like, very, very proudly, typically gay. Like, obsessed with Annie, obsessed with The Little Mermaid, obsessed with Wonder Woman.

Yeah. I'm also obsessed with them, but, you know, so, like, you know. Yeah. So, but the bullying was so bad that then I got, luckily, my parents were like, well, there's an arts high school downtown that from the theater school that you and I went to as kids, I knew two girls that went to that arts high school. So they were, like, let me go. Because they weren't going to let me go until maybe my job. junior year because like to put a 14 year old on the train for an hour each way every day they thought that was dangerous but then they're like oh wait actually you staying high school here is probably

more dangerous what's actually dangerous so that like saved my life and I got to go down town every day. Were you doing theater? Did you go to the school to do theater or for music? For musical theater and then by the end I like had transferred to the music department because I like pretending to be somebody else really creeped me out like after fighting to be myself pretending to be at a different person and a play horrified me. Actors are professional liars.

I mean, in theory, like you, it's the thing why people are so shocked when they find out a singer doesn't write their own music. Because they're like, wow, I trusted you and I found out you didn't write, but no one expects an actor to be a writer. So you, that's why when they try

to do a music career, people tend to look at actors and they're like, ah, they're just singing someone else's song because they're liars, even if they're a good writer. You still tend to look at actors who do music and you're like, that person's a liar. And you look at musicians who are actors when they do that and you're like,

oh, I trust Will Smith. Because he was a musician first. Well, I always, but I always think it's so funny. Why do we get so mad at singers who don't write their own songs? When first of all, Whitney Houston didn't write, Frank Sinatra didn't write, Elvis barely wrote. But then she's like, no one's furious at

Merrill Streep for not writing her Oscar winning screenplay. Like, no, Some singers are not meant to be writers. They're just amazing storytellers. They're interpreters. And that is amazing. We need them. Like, we would have nothing without them.

Sure. They're, like, they're the storytellers, and we're going to write them the story. I also like that a lot of the best writers in the music business are girl pop singers. To me, like, you know, Katie and Lady Gaga and Kesha and Selena and some of these people come in, and they're actually, like, really involved in the process. Oh, my God, yeah. And then you go and you see, like, the guys. I won't start listening them off, but the amount of guys that people think write their own songs

where you're like, well, they don't do it on their own. And a lot of times they don't change shit. And they're getting, somehow people assume that because they're in a band or because they're a guy that they write their own music. Of course. And they somehow assume all pop girls, you know, Megan Trainor, the whole list of them. They're all like, they're all. Taylor Swift is one of the greatest writers of all time.

They're great writers. And everyone assumes that the girls are the ones that aren't writing. In reality, it's the guy pop stars. I mean, you make a really, really good point. It's really weird. Well, but I always say, too, I think it's so funny, like, where the misogyny, the, the, the, the, the, the, homophobia in our business shocks me to the point where, like,

you think that people would overcome it just for financial reasons. Like, you think they would look at, like, the list of songwriters who have gone on, like, these crazy streaks. Yeah. It's overwhelmingly, of course, there are some white straight men who have gone on amazing streaks, and they're so my favorite writers in the world. But overwhelmingly, it's women, people of color, and gay people. Like, from, from, you know, all the women, from Diane Warren to Carol King, to Sia, to

Esther Dean, to Bonnie, to then all the amazing writer, from baby face to the dream, to like, all these people of color writing the fucking best songs we ever heard. And then Desmond Child, and then me, and then Elton John. It's like, if you look at it, especially behind the scenes, funny enough, If you look at it, the majority of the ones that really fuck shit up. And Jews. A lot of Jews. Just throwing that out there.

No, no, for sure. The whole Brill building, they were all Jewish kids that went to, they went to send a guy together. Well, no, but it's all minorities. It's all minorities. So besides, you know, Max, who's obviously a fucking genius, it's like. But if you put sweets in a weird sort of way as a subset, you know, it's, it tends to be. But keep going. I mean, I always find it so funny.

Like, if I was an A&R, right, I would look. at those numbers and be like, okay, every session has to have some sort of minority. Like, even though women aren't technically the minority, they are treated like minorities so that I still count them in that group. Like, every session better have a minority. And that's really interesting. If you look at the numbers, you are much more likely to get a hit. And I think that it's because emotionally we all connect to the underdog.

So even though if it's the hottest, whitest, straight dude singing this song, there's something subconsciously in the song they're singing that relates to a place of being really vulnerable and relates to a place of oppression and relates to a place of being an outsider. Anything that's noticeable in I mean

I you know I guess Cake by the ocean you know it's what where's the vulnerability that happens in or is it the idea of like I don't care so I can say

something like Cake by the Ocean because I don't care what you think about me anyway So that's where that comes from. And it's like owning an odd sexuality. I mean, like, I keep on hoping we eat cake by the ocean. That sounds pretty kinky and weird. Like, I think in all of it, like, even if, even if the song isn't about that, I think that those, that, like, creatively, anyone that fits into some sort of minority category can tap into something special. Sure.

And I truly believe that. And so, for me, I think it's so funny, like, you just, to go, I thought of it because about, like, how people assume women. and don't write their songs when most of the time they actually are the ones writing. Yeah, yeah. And the guys aren't. That's the misogyny in it. And that's the misogyny in it.

And so that's why... Is that different than the rest of... Is it worse in the music business? I mean, I think of all the entertainment business from the research I've done and the friends I have in it. Like, the music business is the most misogynistic and homophobic. Interesting. I only speak from personal experience.

I definitely know the music business is very homophobic. But it's like... It is weird as far as artists are concerned. You know, when you think of, you know... And I don't want to like... out certain people who aren't even out. But, you know, but,

please don't do you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that wouldn't go very well. But, you know, I know of a lot of male singers who are really, like, who have to keep that under wraps on some level. And that seems... That seems shocking. I mean, I wonder how that helps and hurt someone like a Sam Smith,

you know? Well, think what... The main thing that we can take from it, too, though, is that, like, thank God for Sam Smith, right? Thank God we have this huge pop star who's openly gay from day one, right? Because you hurt George Michael. it hurt like, it hurt Ricky Martin

But here's why though Here's why it hurt Because George Michael and Ricky Martin Their whole Not their whole image They're amazing musicians But a big part of their image Was being sold on sex

Oh right And where Sam's You know is a fucking fierce Fabulous Man Who like any human alive Of course has Sex and his sexuality

And sex drive But his way that he presents His music is so classic And it's so he's a crooner he's one of the best fucking singers alive and he just stands there

and delivers that vocal performance that we all wish we could deliver so his but his thing isn't based on sex so it's a very safe it's very safe for like the average person to be like oh well he's game it's about love more than sex so it opens that up

yeah and it's about heartbreak and it's about like you know so it's also like most of his hits are about like not getting love so that's also very easy for people to digest, I think. Yeah.

So you go into, you go to this high school for musical theater, you end up in music. Yeah. This is before you go to school. You went to Berkeley, right? Yeah.

So like when you were, when you were in Chicago, were you in music being like, I'm going to be a writer and then you went to Berkeley to write? Or were you like, oh, I'm going to be a front man of a band? I went to, yeah, so I started,

I started writing songs because like in one, as I said like, being, pretending to be someone else, always creeped me out. And then, like, all the really fabulous songs in musical theater for the most part are written for women. Men, you know, aren't, like, you know, masculinity is so fragile that, like, men in musicals really can't be that fabulous or that sad or that anything. So I just, like, I'll write my own songs so I can be fabulous or sad or anything.

Were you trying to write musicals? No, just, like, I was really starting to get really obsessed with, like, Paula Cole and Ani DeFranco. Wow. Yeah, same. Tori Amos. I used to always say, when I first got my first record deal, I sound. it a lot like a male Ani DeFranco.

Yes. And it was like My number one. It's really shocking that I don't know what happened to her and I don't know if there's like if she's still doing

writing. She's still killing it. Yeah. You know? But like her I saw her live like two months ago. She's more current now

than ever. Than ever. Well, what's interesting to do is we don't like we don't have a new there is a new one. Do you have, do you ever,

have you ever contacted? No, I don't want to. I just like, she's my hero. Like that's like it's like, she's in like my top five. You know what I went through? I went through a rampage last year where okay so I wrote with

I have three karaoke songs. Right? Bring it on. And I went uh one is say it in so so wrote with Rivers. Yeah. Who had written with before but it was four Weasers. That was cool. That's awesome. One was um, um, um, uh, what's the song from Young Guns? Uh, uh, uh, uh, not wanted dead or alive. But I'm blanking out. But Bon Jovi, and I wrote with Bon Jovi. Amazing. And then the last one is Walking in Memphis. And so I got Mark, I got his email. And I had to write like this blind email like, listen.

No, a cold call? Yeah. It's the only person in my entire career that I have contacted. I've never contacted another artist ever. And I said, I know you don't co-write a lot. And this sounds weird. I'm sure if you look at my resume, it'll seem to. confusing to you but I'd love

to, you know, would love to co-write if that's something you want. And he hasn't responded but I'm still I'm determined to go and write, if I write with Mark Cohen to me for some reason, that's like, if I write with him or Tom Waits those are my like, that's my

Anna DeFranco. See, because I got to obviously I got to work with Gwen, which was life changing. I've gotten to work with Courtney Love, which is life changing. When did you work with Courtney Love? Nothing's come out yet. Well actually one song did come out, which is on a seventh inch so you can't even find out. Are you doing like a whole album with her? We're going to work together a lot. I mean who knows what'll happen. It's really unbelievable to work

with her. I think she's one of the best living lyricists. Like it's she's incredible. It's shocking. And again, misogyny. Everyone wants to believe that Kurt wrote the first album and that Billy Corgan wrote the second album because there's no way a woman could be that good. Like it is insane. I have enough frustration being a fucking homo. I can't imagine when it's like going through this world as a woman. where like you write So you think the oppression The oppression list really puts Women are always first

And I think that because also a lot of homophobia Is just based in misogyny Oh right It's like the hatred of the feminine And so it And it's like where you know You can look at it's much more accepted for Even just a straight woman

With like six kids to dress like a guy But if a guy dresses like a girl Even a little bit it's like Yeah Their whole life is defined defined by it. Sure. Like, your, you are now, your whole entire humanity is defined by the fact that you are embracing

femininity. Yeah. And so a lot of, a lot of homophobia is based in misogyny. Is that why you, so you go to, you know, not to relate back to the beginning, but you go to Berkeley or New York. So I went to Berkeley, and my major was songwriting. Oh, okay. And I graduated.

I'm using my major 100%. Yeah. I think both, say music. industry program USC knew that that's what I was going to do it's like it does help if you if you treat this as a career from the gecko

it helps I mean yeah but yeah so I wanted to be I wanted to be like a singer songwriter a very political serious singer songwriter and I did that as much as I could and I won like you wrote political songs very political very like everything was like based in

queer theory and like whatever drama queer theory queer theory you can google it it's very hard to explain everyone google queer theory but at a certain point I just kind of like got bored with being so serious and I also just wanted to like

do something more punk and like sort of embody the queer theory that I was talking about instead of just talking about it just like be that how did you come up with that realization just I mean through a long string of events but like

but are you performing these these other songs being like, what am I doing talking about it and not being it? Was there just a switch? There was just a, or are the idea of like, of like the most punk thing to do is to just do it. And not talk about it. And like, you know, being in my band was like three straight guys and me. And it was, especially at the beginning of it, was very hard rock music. Semi-precious weapons at that time?

Yeah. Oh, so that came pretty much right after college. Yeah, so I did this singer-and-or-or-thing for a minute. And then Sending Precious Weapons was like. of a deal is a singers aren't? Oh God, no. No. I mean, the music is fabulous, but if you heard it, no one is signing that. Were you in, were you, were you in, uh, in New York?

Yeah, in New York. I did, um, playing at like Waws and stuff. Playing it like, um, Sidewalk Cafe was my main spot. I did, and I hosted and performed every Sunday night with Justin Tranter's Flaming Sundays at Sidewock Cafe, which is amazing. Um, uh, uh, the best slash worst name of all time and I'm really proud of it. Um, you I think that's what makes it great. Yeah. Oh, it's like. It has to be the worst. Yeah. Yeah.

So, and then so started the band and then, um, just was amazing because we saw an immediate reaction from New York City. Like, none of the hipster clubs would book us and none of like the hipster publications. Like the village voice never acknowledged that we existed. Why? But we won the village voice readers poll as the best band in New York. So like the people loved us, but like, because it just, you know, it wasn't, um, I mean, it was hard to swallow.

I mean, it was, you know, like really over the top, really like, a, really like, a aggressive, vulgar, sexual music, uh, fronted by a man and, you know, panty hose and six inch heels and, right. Uh, full face of makeup. There was a switch when I had to learn that I wasn't making music for my parents or my childhood. And that's when I got my first record deal was when I started writing songs that were political that were, that were a little bit off and were offensive to people I love.

and which when they when I knew I was on to something when my dad finally said I don't get this right and that was you know I love my dad

but yeah he's you know he's a Midwest guy who's yeah he's you know liberal enough but he doesn't listen you know he's like I don't understand

these fast lyrics right you know I what um slow down did yeah did did semi-precious weapons offend anybody in your family or were they like even more proud?

My family fucking loves... They like want an SPW reunion tour immediately. They want a new album. That is their shit. They were your biggest fans. Oh, literally like when we play in Chicago, like my parents would be in the front pressed up against the stage

surrounded by like... Our fan base was very weird. It was like half like girls that love like hair metal, kind of even though we didn't sound like hair metal a lot, which is the aesthetic. So like, you know, fabulous girls with huge fake tip. and big, fake blonde hair that I worshipped and wanted to be.

And then, like, a lot of guitar dudes would come because our guitar player, Stevie Pine was, like, one of the best in the world. And then, like, you know, lots of queer youth. So, like, my parents would be, like, shoved up amongst, like, this insane crowd of people. So that, so then you go and you sink everything into semi-precious weapons. Oh, full force. Creatively, personally, you know, everything, music, fashion. You're just like, if I'm going to make this work, I'm going to.

100%. All in. So I launched, my day jobs were always jewelry stores. And I learned, yeah, and I learned like the jewelry business

pretty well. And so launched a jewelry line inspired by the band, which was like all weapons and hearts and the hearts would be damaged according to the weapon. And ended up selling

that the selling Preciousal weapons jewelry, which was like, my jewelry company was called FETI. So it was like FETI presents precious weapons. At Urban Outfifference, And what's Fetty?

Like fucked up and pretty combined. Oh yeah, okay. So I actually owned the trademark on Fetty. So Fetty Wap needs to call me. Yeah, exactly, right. I actually had people like, are you going to do... No, Fetty Wap was amazing. I'm going to do shit.

Oh, you think I'm an idiot? I'm a songwriter. I'm not going to piss off one of the coolest dudes in the business. Yeah, right. But, so like the point being, though, all the money I made from that, which ended up at Barneys.

We made like a 14-carat gold and diamond version that was at Barneys and, like, killed it. every single cent I dumped into the band and also I wasn't I didn't know what I was doing business wise you weren't saving it's not like yeah I could have been making you're your 20s though that's what you're supposed to do

is waste all your money on art yeah because that's all I cared about so like we would fly to like London and do like two weeks of shows and like I'm paying for like six people to go you know because like the band and then like a tour manager even like we didn't need one did you have a business partner for the for the fashion no just just did it

Just like kind of like friends would help and my mom would help. And I mean, I like made over like 400,000 pieces of jewelry with my own hands. Wow. I mean, my friends would help assemble everything with me. But like it was a lot. But point being, I literally just threw all of that money into the band. And London and L.A., we made an album produced by Tony Visconti, which obviously is not cheap. Paid for it all myself.

So when you got, when did you get signed to Interscote? we were signed a razor and tie first which actually they just licensed the Tony Visconti album that I made and that was really stupid of me it was like for an album that I paid a lot of money for they gave us like an advance of 20 grand to license it and I was like I look back now and I'm like what the fuck was I doing?

I mean the worst I literally gave them a free product yeah like I went I spoke with a bunch of students where I was like, for all of you people who are holding on to your publishing in perpetuity because you're waiting for this big publishing deal or you're holding on to your masters and whatever. Yeah.

Worst case scenario for a kid who knows too much is that they think that they can wag the dog a little bit. Yeah. You know, and I think we all make, now I guess we didn't all make that, but we both made the mistakes early on of like, man, why did I do that? But obviously licensing the deal with that opened up the door. order the next thing, didn't it? No, it did nothing for us.

Really? It was like, it was the dumbest thing I've ever done. It led to nothing. But now most things do lead to something. You know what I mean? They didn't license it in perpetuity, right? You know, to be honest, I don't even know because that's how unaware I was. I think you could probably go and take that those masters now.

Yeah. And probably put them back on Spotify or whatever. I mean, it's pretty fierce alpha. I mean, there's a song on it called That's Cunt, which is amazing. That's amazing. Trying to take back the word cut. may have it mean something positive instead of negative. Do you ever think about taking your old ideas and using them?

Oh, I do all the time. But mainly not SPW ideas because most of those ideas are like somewhere out in the world and even if it was a small fan base, there's enough. But like the stuff for my singer-songwriter days, there's some really like beautiful, poetic shit that I'm like, I'm stuck on this verse, just throw that in there, you know? And that stuff. Yeah, no. So then after that, I literally went into like the office of like the bosses of raising

aren't high and was like you need to let me go yeah and they just said yes they're like yeah this isn't the right fit you can go so it was amazing and so then we got to sign to Interscope and then signed to Epic and then I mean just four record deals I mean you guys were making

some money doing that though because if you had you know when did the the Lady Gaga phase comes but we only lost money in that on that tour I lost like over 200 grand yeah wow because just because of the cost. We're getting paid like 500 bucks a night. Right.

So the tour support is just not able to compete. But you're just taking your advance and keep putting it back in. Jewelry is still putting it back in. Uh-huh. When the jewelry I couldn't really keep up with on tour. Like we, I tried for like two seasons and I just like couldn't do it. And like it's hard to design like your brain just gets, you know, like overwhelmed with creativity. And I don't.

And to me all I ever cared about was music. So like jewelry was kind of an accident. Yeah. It was your job. In a way, jewelry was your job. It was just lucrative. Like the dumbest, I'm very grateful and lucky. I can't believe it.

Like, I was like, I know I'll launch a jewelry line to pay for all of this. And the fact that it worked is insane. Because like launching a jewelry line is just as hard as becoming a successful artist. Like, it's like the dumbest thing I ever thought of. But I guess it wasn't because it worked. It is actually pretty crazy. When, so you go and you leave. I know that, you know, obviously I know a bunch of the story.

But once, when did you know that it was time to call it quits with the man? On the epic deal They wouldn't release anything So It was a combination So frustrating Were you recording Did you have recordings?

Oh my God we just wrote every day And then like the really good songs Tricky Stewart and Mike Green Who at the time was signed to him They would finish the Because we just record in our house And like Then they would take it and finish it

And make it sound fucking massive So we had all these amazing songs And all these Tricky Stewart Mike Green co-productions That sound insane and we couldn't do anything. Why didn't they release it? I mean, many, I have no idea.

I mean, it's also the worst time. To be in a band right now, I mean, we missed the boat a little bit. Time-wise, like, the post-2008 to 2011 is a really tough time to be in a band. Well, in this, though, this was like 2000, but epic time was like 2012-13. So there was the fun, there was the Imagine Dragons,

there was the foster of the people, there was all that. Obviously, our band was nothing like that, but there still was bands happening. but they just wouldn't release the music for whatever reason. Who knows? There could be a million reasons. I mean, the main reason is they're right.

Is that like a really flamboyant, very sexual gay performer isn't going to work anymore. You know, it hasn't really worked since AIDS. If you look at all the fabulous feminine male performers, they're all pre-AIDS. That's really interesting. Well, because I think it just being... It scared people. gay and sexual, you know, with how, you know, the Reagan administration demonizing all of us instead of helping us, it turned us into death. Would you develop one as an artist?

I would love to. The first artist I'm really developing is a woman named Shia Diamond, though, who's the amazing trans woman of color, who spent 10 years incarcerated and probably the most moving lyricist I've ever come across. What does she sound like? it's like old school soul protest music mixed with like you know

but she's also like super influenced by and obsessed with like you know lemonade and like you know so it's like but so 2013 he comes around

so we're there we can't release music we're all terrified and fucked up and like we we toured the Interscope album for like

three years like 2010 to like you can't tour that one album anymore like the shows the numbers kept getting smaller because they've seen that show.

So we're like... It's so expensive. It's so expensive and we're just like... And it should be... Like the touring stuff, when you say that the, you know, no matter how much you can tour, a song will tour much faster.

A big song will just tour around the world and then you show up and everyone's there. Right. Well, and also you just... You know, I realized too, making the mistake of like, obviously opening for Gaga was an amazing experience and we saw the world

and like watching one of the greatest performers live perform every night was super fucking cool and her fans are amazing but we weren't a pop band and those are pop fans you know so like some of them could get into our aesthetic but like but musically they don't give us shit

and so it was like some of them loved us and were great to us but like overall out of the 15,000 people at every show there was like maybe 50 that were like that's cool you know what I mean? And that doesn't even mean that they're spending money on it it just means that they think it's cool

and they like tweeted me you know what Right, right. But so, so in 2013, we couldn't put music out, so touring was pointless, and Katie Vinton came to Warner Chapel. So the band was signed to Warner Chapel.

Yay. And the guy that signed us had left the company, and Katie was brought in. And so I met with her, and she listened to our new album, and she's like, this is amazing. And this much more pop than ever before,

since Epic's not doing anything, and it seems like you can write pop, would you want to try sessions? for other people. It had never crossed your mind before that. I mean, it always sounded like a fabulous fantasy. Like, after I was a huge rock star and I was like 50 to like, you know, make Christina Aguilera's comeback record or something.

Like when we were both 50 because we're the same age. But like, you know what I mean? Like that always sounded cool. Like these women that I worship like do that. But never like let me get in the pop circuit. Like I didn't even know that really existed to be honest. So Katie changes your life with one meeting. With one meeting.

Katie says, do you want to do this? And I was like, I want to do anything. I, you know, and I love people. I'd like to talk to people. Are you broke at this point? Beyond broke. So where were you living? The whole band was living five of us because the bass player's wife was with us too.

And actually my ex-boyfriend, he was living with us. So six of us in one two-bedroom house, but we like forged it into like four bedrooms somehow. Like the garage became a bedroom. So they were all broke also. We were all broke. And you guys were at this point the band was done? No, we were still in the band. it was just like

so while the band was still trying to do a little bit of stuff I just started doing all these sessions and I just had so much fun because it's like you get to write outside of yourself you're not concerned with what your fans are going to say you're not concerned with what you would say you're not concerned with anything besides right in a great song

Were they offended by you doing No Were they supportive of it? They were so supportive and we're all like we were all friends for like five years before we started the band Like me and Cole who now is in DNCE

Right. He and I were literally roommates freshman year of college. Like I just showed up and there was my roommate and that was this guy. So they were so supportive and they just knew, like, I'm such a fucking hustler that they were like, if he just sits in the house all day, he's just going to drive us crazy. So get the fuck out of here. So it was, and I just fell in love with it because it's like all that matters is writing the best song that you can. And Centries is really the first hit, right? Oh, 100% the first hit. So that comes out.

And it's so strange because, you know, here you are. obviously you knew fallout boy because you're in a band and you're not dead so you know who they were and they're from chicago and then all of a sudden you write a song and it becomes like it's in sporting arenas crazy you co-write it with an indian girl which makes me very proud oh yeah yeah i mean i guess at this point are you then like why would i ever be in a band again was it that quit it was really cool and so it was the combination of that like it just started happening and i loved it i loved it meeting people. I love just focusing on the song and that's it. And also like the band thing was just getting difficult because of not because of the band,

but because of all the outside factors. And there was someone on our team who was literally, because we started having a single that we put out just with Tricky put out himself on like his Tricky's label that started aviation high started doing well on alternative radio. And alternative radio is even more homophobic than pop radio. Really? Oh yeah. So that's kind of shocking to me. Yeah, well, but rock has just been turned into like total bro-town.

Yeah, but rock is, you know, rock is country music. Like, I don't even know where rock is anymore. But it's like, you know, it's like, well, here's an example. We played like, um, uh, alternative radio show thing. Like, you know, a summer weenie roast. It wasn't that. That was a different type of thing, but one of those fucking things. I'm sure there were a lot of jokes about that.

And yeah. And there was literally like all these tweets of like, this dude is in heels. That's not rock and roll. and I'd be like... That is rock and roll. You're a fucking idiot. Normally I never... You know, I never...

When I was in the band I would never talk about politics really. I just lived with the politics. That was my rule. Now that I'm not trying to be an artist, as you can see and how we've been talking, I'll fucking say anything I want. But I did like tweet back

to all those people with like pictures of like David Bowie and Kiss and everyone would be like, wait, so this isn't rock, I'm confused. Like the people that invented this genre, You don't like that? It is fun when you know the answer. And, you know, I think I don't want to sound like an elitist, but it, when you live in a city of 15 million people.

Yeah. And you have, when you're not here, it's because you're traveling with either the biggest artists in the world or you're on tour. Yeah. Meeting people from all different cities. Yeah. You know, there is some argument that artists are qualified to make a statement about. humanity. Yeah.

Because they're well traveled. They're well educated without that sounding, you know, I'm not saying that educating in a formal sense. I'm saying educated like worldly. Yeah. You know? And the idea that people somehow belittle an artist's point of view, not realizing that, no, that person's actually probably knows the answer to some of these things. Like maybe they should actually listen to the person who's making this kind of artistic statement and saying this is about.

about the future. Well, I think actually the guy did reply to the tweet like, oh yeah, I guess, or something. So the point being is that there was someone on our team who kept saying to me at least once a week I would get a phone call saying like, I don't want to hurt your feelings and I don't want to blow, blah, blah,

but I really think we need to find a way for you to appear less gay. And so the combination of less gay and then also the writing working, when you would hear that. It's soul crushing, you know, and I'm a really strong, I don't want you to be less gay.

Thanks, Ross. As your friend. But it was soul-crushing. And I am, you know, luckily was born very confident and then was raised by some people that loved me and also would like kill anyone for me. Like my parents right now in this election, they're friends that voted for Trump. They just have to say like, my son. If you didn't read about what Pence wants to do to my son.

Right. Shame on you. Shame on you. Like, I don't know how we can be friends because you clearly don't think that my son deserves equal in human rights. So, point being, I was raised by amazing people and hearing, please be less gay, when all you want is for the world to hear your music, it's soul crushing. Because you're like, well, maybe I should do it. And I actually did. I did.

I started dressing a little bit differently. I wore heels, but they were like a thicker, like more masculine heel because in my brain it was like also getting on stage. Platform somehow instead of stilettos. I need something. I can't get on stage in a fucking sneaker. I mean, I'll wear a sneaker in real life, but on stage that just is blasphemy. You have to respect the stage.

And so between those two things, of writing going well and falling in low with all aspects of it, the songs, the community, like the pop community in L.A. is like a real scene. Yeah, it is. In New York, we were never... It's real family. It's a fucking awesome.

Way more than being in a band. In a band, it was like... I was in L.A. in bands for 10 years, and it's really competitive. I hate all of my band. Manmates, except for two. But no, you're right. But a lot of, the guys who were part of my bands that were not like the partner in the band always were great.

Right. It was always the guy that was competitive within it. But the difference in the songwriting community is like, you know, you and I can write for a day. And then I don't see you for a month. But I'm super supportive of your success. And it doesn't affect me if you're successful. any way negatively. Well, I think the reason why there is this real community, though,

is because, like, in some way, of course, there's healthy competition and everything, but in some ways, like, we can all help each other. Like, oh, wait, so, like, you're really close with that project. Yeah. Can I maybe come right for a day and see if our vibe works on that project or whatever it might be? Like, our talents can actually help each other,

even though there, of course, will always be some sort of competition. But, like, in a band, like, if another, band is not in your fucking band. So that, if your band either wins or it doesn't. But like as writers, we can all hang out and we can all make music together. Like, you know, if you go to some of the super Frankenstein A&Rs, like

you can, they might, someone might send you a fucking hit chorus and you're the one who's lucky enough to like write new lyrics to the second verse. I don't do that stuff anymore because I feel like that's the end of creativity and that makes singles artists and not albums artists and single artists are pretty close to being done.

But wait. single artists are close to being done? What do you mean? I mean, when you look at someone like Rihanna who was the queen of singles, who then put out like a bold as fuck concept album, because the way that streaming allows

her to make a serious statement and make a serious amount of money on things that aren't normal hits. Like when Beyonce and Rihanna, who are the queen of singles, are making concept albums, the tide is changing. Yeah, it's very, you know, we talk a lot about how it's before

1964 with the Brill building where it's like the hit makers make money and then it's going to be the next step is that people are going to crave going into like real artists doing an artist statement you know now it's like where you can actually do something like that yeah and um let them consume this whole product yeah and not even give a shit about singles because they're really not making money off radio anyway yeah you know if you're an artist you're not really make like riana doesn't make the money off radio so since, you know, her shows are going to be sold out anyway. Right.

You might as well go and do something artistic. One, if you can give people something to really believe in, your shows are going to sell way more. Right. You know, when, obviously, Beyonce's whole career has always been massive. She's one of the greatest of the greats. She's, you know. But when she started making this switch to things that are more,

that really had something to fucking say. Yeah. She went from arenas to stadiums overnight. You know what I mean? Like, it's, it's uh it's that's where we're at least who knows where we're going to go i should never try to but that's where we want but that's where we want to go and i think for me what which is interesting as a couple guys who write singles is like you you hope i mean the thing is there it'll be really hard

when if radio's gone and the singles essentially the radio becomes playlist right it's going to be very complicated when you know talk about paola now that that the playlist are essentially paid for by or that it's subsidized by records record labels, you know, that people are going to have access to the playlist, even more so than radio, will be record labels. But what a hit is, is going to be very complicated to establish. And I think it already is complicated to establish. You know, there's things that are driving a serious amount of revenue that, like, you know,

my mom will never hear. Right. You know what I mean? And it's hard to even show them. Yeah. Because unless they have a subscription. Right. Or they want, you know.

Yeah. But it's also, too, I think what's so cool about being where we are, or at least, like, for me what's so cool is like making the choices to try to move culture forward. And I think that we should all take ourselves responsible. We should all hold ourselves responsible for that. As songwriters that people care about, you know, like I always want to make sure that like I give women the power in the song. I don't ever want to write a song for a young woman without having a young woman in the room.

Yeah. Because I think it's kind of gross for like 40. year old men. I just aged myself by a couple years, but I'm just going to call myself 40. Even though I'm like a very feminine 40 year old man, it's still like, I think it's gross for like 40 year old men to like write a sexy song for like a 20 year old

girl. I think that like it's funny only because I wrote Dangerous Woman, but I wrote it thinking that it would be like this would be really cool. It would be really cool of our generation had, you know, a natural woman of sorts. And so, you know, I spent

like a month writing that thinking that this is going to be really cool for I was thinking like it'd be like a country kind of record. Oh, dope. So when I wrote on guitar and I thought it was I'm blanking on her name. What's her name who did Carrie Underwood? Yeah. I thought it was a Carrie Underwood record.

Sick. I can hear that actually. Yeah, yeah. So I brought it in with that in mind because I was going to Nashville in January last year. Yeah. And I was like, I really want to bring this to Nashville because I think this is a really cool song for a country girl. Yeah. So when we finished it, it was all organic instruments, you know?

Sick. And I thought it was like a country record. Yeah. I didn't think it was like a young, a young girl. But I just felt like I could tell that story only because like I'm like an old man writing a song, you know, like it's a weirdest thing for my wife to walk in and see a straight guy writing dangerous woman, you know? Well, no, and of course there's always an aspect to storytelling and like we can all tell all different stories and put ourselves in different brains. I just think for me personally, I want to make sure,

I want to hold myself responsible. If I'm going to do that, I want to make sure that like there is a young woman in the room who thinks that what we are saying is okay. Right. And that's why, you know, the other main thing that happened just to backtrack in my career was then meeting Julia Michaels, you know? Right.

When it comes to things like centuries or kick by the ocean or things that lean somewhere towards rock or alternative or whatever, you know, I can't. I have all the confidence in the world to take the lead on that. But when it comes to writing pop, like just straight up pop, or like obviously everything that Julia, her instincts are a little left of center, but like young female pop. She's the one.

She's the one. And also so that our collaboration has just been life changing in so many ways. But the first thing that, like the first day I met her, it was like, okay, this is an artist, even though she wasn't an artist yet. It's like she is only writing her story. And that's amazing. And like, you know, you've heard from like, some people will do sessions and they find that off putting.

Like she's not being collaborative. Like, no, she's being very collaborative. She just has a story to tell and she's going to fucking tell it. So the minute I met her and started working with her, after 10 years of doing, wearing, saying, thinking, everything I did was exactly what I wanted and only what I wanted. Like my band members would collaborate sonically. But like visually and lyrically, it was. all mine.

Meeting this woman and being like, oh, I'm gonna fucking help you tell your story. That's dope. Like, I just literally got chills saying it now.

And as, like, as, as, as, as, you know, with both of us

have a good relationship with Selena, on some level, we're like older brothers. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And,

and I imagine with, with Julia, it's like a full-time, like, you call her your song wife. Yeah. But in so many ways, it's like,

it's much more of like, a song sister in a way. Yeah. To me, like, you know, because she can vent to you every day. Yeah. You know, she can, when she's in the booth, she's literally, you know, there are days where she's really sad. Yeah.

You know, and she just emotes the song into it, you know? Oh, you're singing you mean? No, I'm trying about Julia. Yeah, yeah. I mean, even more Julia than for Selena in that sense. No, it's, it's just an amazing thing to be a part of. And it's, it makes me feel very proud that I'm, you know, Julia is this young, like in brilliant Latina girl

who like I get to help her bring her I get like you know it's her these are her stories and I've never like I have no that doesn't make me a worse writer that makes me a smart writer that I'm willing to help someone tell their story so this is really interesting because the you know I imagine people on some level say like oh Ross and Johan because we had song

we have a bunch of songs together you know obviously I write with other people yeah and you know people think of Julian Justin as like a writing team. For sure. You know, is there ever been pressure to be like, this is the only team? Or was it, is it, you know, is, because like I want to maximize the time I'm with people that that really help, that bring up my batting average.

Yeah. You know, is, isn't it hard to go and say, I'm going to go right with anybody else? And also do you get so much pressure from the industry to be like, oh, but you guys do it together. Like when you're like, no, no, no, I want to do this session. alone. Yeah. No,

I think what, luckily for us that, of course, when you're so close to somebody, one, writing with other people can just feel odd

because you don't have the shorthand. You know, me and Julia have spent, you know, we just, because she was doing all this promo stuff

for her artist queer, we just, we didn't see each other for three weeks, which is the longest, we haven't seen each other for three years. Yeah.

You know, the long, maybe like, you know, last Christmas, like, 10 days, you know,

it's like, she's probably, you know, one of the closest people to me in my life. And so as a friend, it's weird to not see that person, but also when you write with somebody else and you don't have that shorthand, it can just feel like, am I wasting my fuck?

This is a waste of fucking time. I'm going to walk out of this session. I'm just going to wait until I see Julia tomorrow, which, of course, I never do. But those thoughts cross your mind. I mean, I know you have songs coming out next year that I won't name, but that are coming out that were written with other people. Yeah.

So what I was to say was what naturally happened then was we both started working, with Joe Jonas for the DNCE project together. And Julia being like the smart person she is was like, yeah, I only write well when this is like my, when I'm coming from my story and like my story is not going to relate to Joe at all. Like this is just not the right fit. So she like took herself out of it and the next day we did Cake by the Ocean which is me and Joe and Matt Man and Robin.

And so that very naturally became a really easy way of like, the sort of like bandy things even though Kick by the Ocean is pop as fuck it's still all real instruments and like it's much more like band to me it feels like the way you remember that band lit you know like it reminds me of that

like just a happy fun band yeah and so that just kind of happened naturally where it was like whether it was DNCE or other like band ish projects I would I would do on my own when that was successful because I guess when When I have a single that's successful that's not with my normal co-writers,

there's a part of me that feels exceptionally accomplished, maybe more so than when I write it with the people I love dearly. Yeah. But there's something about when you write it on your own where you're like, wow, I still got it. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like when you're writing, there's something about the,

I don't know, there's something about, like, I would imagine when Cake by the Ocean is successful, that you're sitting there being like, you know, in a community where everyone's like Julia and Justin, Julian Justin that people that you're that some part of you's like oh this is this is Justin I guess in a way yeah for sure but for not in a negative way yeah I know I don't I don't want it to sound like I'm discrediting the other songs but like to me you know like the list of songs for you this year is so nuts but you know even obviously after centuries you know that's already a couple years old but

you know love myself good for you handsome myself sorry cake by the ocean used to love you close all that stuff is this last year, you know? Nuts. And that doesn't include the 40 album tracks or the other songs that didn't quite get to that level. Yeah. You know, but of those really like, you know, cake by the ocean is the one that you did on your own, which is why I kept mentioning that.

Yeah. No, you know, of course it does feel like a different, it's a different sense of accomplishment because, as I said earlier, like for me, when I'm writing with Julia, like, the amazing feeling of like, I'm going to be there to make Julia the best version of herself. And that is my job. That's what a good co-writer is somebody who facilitates their co-writer's best song.

Yeah. Not somebody who goes in and demands that the song's theirs. Right. So like it says a lot about your professionalism that that's your point of view. Yeah. And it's just also too, it's professionalism, but it's also like finding joy in everything.

And it's like, me and Julia laugh all the time. Like the super like fast. like slightly urban pop melody she does, I could never in a million years do those. But when I know that we need one, I can know the shape of it I literally just can, this is audio, so no one can see it, but I literally just like point my way through the melody that I want her

to sing. To sing. And like, oh, that pre-you have is amazing. But like I think actually because the verse, the phrasing is here and the chorus, the phrasing is here, we need one that goes like this. And I move my finger and she sings it because I can't sing those. And I have no shame in saying that. Or I think a lot of dumb songwriters, their ego would get in the way and they'd be like,

well, I mean, everything's a 100% collaboration. And I'm like, no, it's not a 100% collaboration. I cannot write urban pop melodies. I never will and I will never try because I'll sound like a fucking idiot. You ever, I mean, now you have you have the ability to say no a lot when it comes to sessions.

But you and I have texted about and I'm still learning. Oh, yeah. I can't. I can't. It's really stressful, man. I mean, I don't think people get how difficult it is to start saying no in your career. It shows a little bit of confidence, but it also starts to show that, I mean, you're going to turn down something that's successful at some point. Well, I think that the...

It doesn't mean it would have been successful if you were in the room. Exactly. And for me, I think that the passion changes. Like, I still don't say no that much, but when I do, I'm finding an easier time to do it because it's not just about making sure I get in every room to pop. possibly get that hit. It's now about, because I have, you know, some sort of financial security, let's just call it what it is. It's more about like what I know I'm going to enjoy the most and what I think is going to help move culture forward. Like if I'm going to write for a guy and I'm like, I know that that artist will never allow themselves to like sing something vulnerable,

I'm not going to do it because. Yeah, it won't make any sense. That's not pushing culture forward. So like that's, that's hurting the planet. So I don't want to do that. You know, I don't... Yeah, the songs that are... I kind of pride myself on not having songs that are misogynistic. I'd like to think that my songs that are vulnerable. Yeah.

You know, and that... I think that it's hard when you find out... There are a lot of artists that are homophobic. I'm sure that there... Oh, shocking. There have been probably times we've walked in a room, and the person doesn't know who you are. It's got to be like an awkward writing session.

I've literally walked into a room not too long ago. And the producer, who I will not name, there's no reason to. But he literally looked at me and was like, whoa. And I was like, excuse. Yeah. Excuse me. Hi, nice to meet you. I'm Justin.

He's like, I didn't know you were going to be like that. Oh, boy. Like he was shook to the core. Because it was a night session. I had come from dinner. So she was looking a little extra fabulous. And by she, I mean me. So he was literally shook to the core.

And I was just like, okay, what do I do? Do I just like turn around and walk out and just be like, fuck this dude? Did you? No, because I was like... Did you guys talk about it? I talked about it. And I was just like, you know what? Like, I'm going to get through this session.

I'm going to show him that I'm a human being Did you say that? Yeah. And I was like, we're going to do this, blah, blah, blah. And I said, also just imagine if the roles were reversed. Like, imagine if I walked into a room and said, whoa, I didn't know you were going to be like that. And what did he say?

He was, he just, like, kind of, I can't remember exactly what he said, but he's like, yeah, I'm just really sorry. It's just like, I honestly just had no idea. Did he apologize? No, did you guys write a good song? No, the song sucked. But we ended up like, you know, I hopefully, you know, I left that room and like he, his perspective on something changed. Yeah.

I think people don't realize that a writing session is two, three, four humans in a room. Yeah. Writing something that doesn't exist beforehand and how much that. How much trust that takes and how much vulnerability takes. And no, but I also would be like, just you probably, if you have that many issues with other humans, you should probably Google people. before they come. Because you could just Google me and you know what you're going to get.

For sure. One thing's like I want to do is I'm going to just list a few people and I kind of want to hear what you have to say about that. Okay. You know, just random things. You can say whatever comes to mind. Lady Gaga. One of the best performers

who's ever lived. Selena Gomez. One of the greatest storytellers who's ever lived. Really? You've worked with her. Yeah, I love it. When that girl starts singing something, it cuts you.

Always. deep to the core. Her tone her tone not just as a singer but as a curator is phenomenal. As a curator right now the way that Brittany was during Blackout is how I see Selena right now. The way that Rihanna has been her whole career. Yeah, yeah. The person who knows that this is how

what she wants to sound like and what's cool and what pushes the boundaries but also just emulates really well which a lot of singers like some singers like I want to put my spin on it and I think that's negative versus trying to figure out how to embody it. What's best for the song? Yeah. She seems to get that. And it's just, it's, you know, whether she's singing something sexy or something sad, it's just

you believe it more than almost anybody right now. It's like the level of honesty that comes through. But, you know, I think that's because she's an actress. You know, it's like she can fucking deliver this for you. Yeah. Yeah. Imagine dragons. Oh, fucking I mean,

what are you supposed to say? I don't know. I mean, I know you're spending a lot of time with them. just as Instagram. It's so hard to say. It's like, same with Bieber. It's like these fucking icons. When you say, Dan is the sweetest man maybe ever. Oh, cool.

Working with him is so dope because you literally like, right? And then you go hang out with him and his family for like three hours. Like, it's awesome. It's, uh, I think like definitely like one of the more, you know, working with Celine is very intimate. And working with Dan is just as intimate. Like it's like I'm with his family every night. Sure.

It's really fucking, and he might be the best singer alive. Wow. Range-wise or just, like, power or the whole thing? Have you ever heard him sing in real life? I think I saw them once at some radio thing. It is like being in the room when he opens his face is just like madness. So speaking people open their face and tone comes out, Brittany. I mean, that tone is heartbreaking.

It's like, I don't even know. And also, she's just such a sweetheart. You know, like, it was really cool. She said in an interview a little bit ago that, like, you know, beginning to co-write with me and Julia was such an awesome. She hasn't co-written in a while. Yeah. And it was so amazing because, like, you have to be willing to, like, suck.

You have to, which all of us do, not just Brittany. All of us have to be willing to say something or suggest something that's going to be bad. And like, my favorite thing is to watch how people deal with, like, a bad suggestion. You know what I mean? I just love it. Well, that's the thing. I think theater really teaches you how to, when you're younger, it teaches you a few things. It teaches you status in a room.

It teaches you how to give constructive criticism. You know, some of these things that you can use in real life. I think I used what I learned in my childhood theater days, you know, in my everyday life. Yeah. Because you learn how to take a bad suggestion and try. to encourage someone to come up with to beat that suggestion. No, it is crazy.

In theater, the amount of criticism that you are expected to take and handle with dignity and respect is crazy. Like, I look back on it, I'm like,

that's not actually healthy to make, like, fifth graders, like, take really hard notes. Like, that's not. That shouldn't have, but then again, maybe it should.

I don't fucking know. I think it has to. I think it's like the thing about getting in, you know, And in fourth place and not getting, you know, a trophy. Yeah. However, we do have to stop.

We have to stop making fun of young people for getting participation trophies because they didn't ask for them. No, it was the parents. Isn't that so funny? Like, now the parents want to be like, oh, that's younger generation. They're just, I'm like, well, then why did you give them the fucking trophy? They didn't know anyway. They didn't know.

They cried. The kid still was pissed that they lost. They didn't care about their participation trophy. They still were mad. They lost. Like, that's your fault, dumbness. Anyway, sorry. A few more.

Gwen Safani. I think I would think Gwen and Julia are the two people I've collaborated with who are the most willing to expose like the deepest, darkest personal thoughts and secrets. It's just so amazing because I always feel as a writer, if you are willing to expose the real truths,

that's the most universal. The more specific that you get, the more universal the story becomes. I agree. And to watch Gwen fight for it. Like if we were to suggest a lyric, you know, because I did like the first round of sessions with me in Rasha and then

the back half with me and Julia. If you suggest a lyric to her, just because like it sounds dope or it sings well or like whatever, if that lyric doesn't match exactly what's happening in her life, not going in the fucking song. And then after working with her, then you go back and listen to a song like

Hollabat Girl, which seems like it's just fun. No. Oh, no. She is angry. Yeah. And she is being very specific about who she's angry at. And it's like, whoa, like, you just made a banger that's actually about you being in so much pain and anger. Like, that is fuck. We were all in the club. Like, when she says this shit is bananas, I always thought she meant Farrell's beat in the song.

Like, this shit is bad. The fact that you're thinking that I'm. The fact that this person did that to her is like, this shit is bananas. You are insane. You're a crazy person. Yeah. Oh, anyway. So, yeah, that's quite.

So obviously people think of. of Justin and Julia as a writing team of sorts. But to me, it's actually Justin, Matt Man and Robin, and Julia's come in and out. In a way, like, so much of the hits in the last year of Matt Man and Robin, what do you think about Matt Man and Robin? Matt Man and Robin, I think it feels like I'm in a band again. Oh, cool.

It's like best friends. They're your other bandmates. That's like my new band. Even though we just have, we make music for other people. That's like, that's my new band. And that's really, it's been really, really special. And I love being in a band. And I love that sort of like camaraderie.

And like, I would say like, you know, as we talked about before, the songwring community is really close and we all hang out. But like, they feel like my band. Right. Like, it's just, it's, if there's a session, we're going to breakfast beforehand and we're going to dinner after. Yeah. That this is just, we don't talk about it. That's just what's happening.

Yeah. That's amazing. I'm going to sort of close on this. I think we see a lot of people say that this is going to be a really good era for art because when we have things that we have to say, that's when art shines. I will say that, you know, 2003, I was trying to work on this really political album. Yeah.

And no one else was doing it, but I got a record deal, but nobody wanted to hear it. Right. And I really hope that this time that people are open to hearing some songs that make a difference. Well, I think they are going to be, not to cut you off, sorry. No, it's fine. I think that the only way it's going to connect is if the industry allows the actual people who are truly being affected by it. Yeah. To talk about it.

I think that one of the beautiful things that's happened in the internet is that, like the bullshit detector is so high. So if it's a bunch of rich white straight men talking about the struggles of minorities, whether that's people of color or religious minorities or, you know, sexual orientation minorities, if that happens again, we don't want it anymore. I always talk about like, and of course Bob Dylan is a genius,

this is no disrespect to him, but like why in goddess name was Bob Dylan the one talking about racism. Well, and of course, people should raise their hand and they should call out something. But like, why wasn't Tina Turner allowed to sing about it? It's funny because if you grew up in the U.S., in the same way that like when Christmas comes around, Easter comes around, Good Friday, Ash Wednesday, all these holidays come up.

And as a Jew, you're like, I have no idea what to do. Oh, for sure. Because you're like, while we get off for Christmas break for two weeks. What am I going to fucking... You know, why? Yeah. And you see Christmas trees and you're like, I don't have one of those. Right.

And it's supposed to be separation of church and state and it's not. You're just not. Our school calendar is based around Christmas. Yeah. You know, Robert Zimmerman, you know, is speaking about civil rights because Jews were on the front of helping out the civil rights movement. because we're the closest thing to white Christians that people will listen to of the minorities. Fair.

Like on that oppression list, we're not as, we're not, we're not typically oppressed, but we're not totally not oppressed. And so it happens that I think that Jewish writers who were into civil rights and activists were able to help because they could help give a voice to something. And people will be like, oh, you're white and male, so I'll listen to you. Yeah. So, you know. So what I'm saying, so of course, we need everyone should talk about, about, everyone should

speak on the injustice. Yeah. Everyone should, if they can give a voice to something that isn't being a voice, they should. I just think that in this day and age with the internet, the reason why that type of music isn't connecting as much anymore is because we want to hear it from the source. Yes. And I'll say this to two things really quick. One, like, even though I am so grateful for the straight female pop stars that go to bat for the gay community, I am so grateful for it.

We need it. But why can't gay people sing about it? Right. Gay people aren't allowed to sing about it, but straight people are. And that's not fair. Right. That's, you know, that's like you're taking our power away because you're saying, well, we don't actually. And it's a weird thing of like, yes, we need them to talk about it.

We need all the help we can. You know, in a lot of states in this country, you can still just be fired for being gay. You can be kicked out of your housing, you know? Like when the tragedy happened in Orlando, the people that survived that, who survived tragedy because now they were outed by surviving that could very easily have just been fired. Because in Florida, you can just get fired for being gay. So far. Legally.

So, like, we need all the help we can get. But on the other hand, like, We also need to allow the people who are suffering to tell their own stories. No doubt. And like the last thing I'll say too is like there's, you know, I went and saw 21 pilots live. My nieces are obsessed. It was amazing. Yeah.

Like so amazing. But like why do they get to be the ones who are angry? Well, the angry white teen. But like you know what I'm saying like, it's like grunge again. I mean it's just that. Right. So, but like why does Tina Turner have to fucking like why doesn't she get to be angry? Why did Bob Dylan get to be angry?

You know what I'm saying? Sure. We don't want the... I think part of it's because the people who are really, really suffering from this, we don't want to hear their pain because it's too real. That's interesting. And I think if we want to make a change and we want music to really reflect what's happening, we have to let the people who are suffering tell us that they're suffering.

Like, wrong man, the musical, you know, it's about a guy being wrongly accused, being in prison and whatnot. And although the Innocence Project shows that, you know, a lot of, a lot of the people who are wrongly convicted are white. Yeah. You know, the only response I've ever gotten that's been negative out of the 14 years where these kids that we brought in from the inner city where they're like, yeah, but he's white. Right. And then, you know, as a white guy, you're like, yeah, but I'm putting it a lot of effort because I do believe there's nothing I can do about it. I'm not going to put, like, I'm not going to put a black face on just because.

you know, just to make it more real, that's not going to make it authentic either. You know? Yeah, yeah, right. And so it's a weird thing. It's like, I would rather have the guy, I'd rather have all of us go and find a way to say something that matters, you know, than not. Right. I think you're right. And I think that we as a community, certainly from my perspective, we look up to you as, I know that I do my kind of advocacy.

for things as a writer and for that community. And we look at you for the way you lead the way for being who you are in the music industry no matter what it is. And I love that your interviews are about being who you are. I love that you don't shy away from anything anymore. And I think I'm excited to see your influence over the next few years. Our generation of writers is really making a difference. And the reason why we're a community versus the previous generations

is because we see what happens to the... There's a reason why there is a previous generation, partly because they had their own clicks and they didn't communicate with each other. And we as a community can grow together. And, you know, obviously if you ever need any help, you know, let me know, let the other writers know because we have your back.

Yeah, well, thank you. And the more you want to pursue adding that, you know, opening the doors for the gay community in the artist, to being professional artists and to actually be heard. Yeah. You have friends that are willing to help. Yeah. And even if, even if I'm not gay, it doesn't mean that I wouldn't be happy to help. And when it comes to math and composition.

Right. Do you know what I mean? Like, you have friends in this that you don't have to do it alone. I appreciate that. We really do, we are watching it and we really do appreciate your work. Well, when we did the single for the Orlando tragedy, the amount of people that jumped on board in two seconds to help was amazing. I really saw whether it was Interscope, whether it was Julia, whether it was blood pop.

Like everyone was like, tell us what you want and we will do it. It was amazing. Great. So the last thing I'll say is that, like, I think that everyone who has power in this business should do their best to help someone to not tell the story for the people without voices. to go and get people and give them the voice. Because as hit songwriters now,

people will take the meeting. Yeah. So go find someone on the fucking internet who has something dope to say and help give them the platform to say it. Don't say it for them, give them the platform. Yeah. Awesome. Thank you so much. Of course.

Okay. Thanks for listening to this episode of Anne the Writer is. If you want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed, be sure to check out our Spotify playlist or visit our website. and The WriterIs.com. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe to us on iTunes.

You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter. And The Writer Is is produced by Joe London, edited by Miles Bergsmah, and published by Big Deal Music. A special thanks to Jeff Sparger, David Silberstein from Mega House Music, and Michael White. Until next time, this is Ross Golan.