And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 6: Jason Evigan

Episode Date: March 6, 2017

With a number of worldwide #1 singles already under his belt, this Grammy nominated co-writer of Jason Derulo's smash 'Talk Dirty", Nick Jonas' "Chains", and David Guetta's "Lovers on the Sun", has made the term 'in-demand' an understatement. Beyond his skills with the song-pen, he is also well known in the community for his non-profit work and interests in spirituality. One of the most beloved people in the songwriting business...And The Writer is...Jason Evigan. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey guys, this is and the writer is with Ross Golan. I've written with hundreds of writers and artists over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life and the industry, politics, composition, whatever. If you ask me, songwriters are some of the most worldly and intelligent people I've ever come across. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs. And most importantly, who the people are who write the songs. co-produced us with my friend Joe London, who was nominated for a Grammy earlier this year.

He makes us sound like Angels. So if you like what you hear, please rate us on iTunes or whatever your preferred podcast listening site is. If you want to follow along with this podcast and listen to the songs we discuss, go to Spotify and look up And The Writer Is or go to our website, which is www.com. This week we have Jason Evigan. He's one of the most beloved people in the music business. He walks into a room and pretty much everybody lines up to give him a hug. He does important things in his off time. We all respect that. He and his wife, Victoria, have a nonprofit organization called Picture This,

which is a picture of pen pals for kids in America to write letters and send pictures to other children in third world countries, promoting friendships and connections. He's also the guy that after every session, you kind of want to sit around and just discuss the planet. You want to talk about spirituality. You want to talk about all kinds of things. So you'll get a lot of that in this interview.

A few things you should learn about in this podcast. We talk a lot about camps. Writing camps are essentially where a bunch of writers get together and they write and give each other advice. You'll have five to ten people in two or three different rooms just kind of running around and you're trying to finish this song and somebody in another room does a better beat. So they come in, they help that,

and somebody else comes in with a different lyric. and it's really communal. It's part of the reason why a lot of songs these days have a lot of writers on it. There are a couple famous camps in the music business. There's one in France, there's one in Aspen, there's one in Vegas, there's one in Toronto. You know, when you go and you write with some of these artists,

they'll rent out a house in Puerto Rico. They'll do whatever they can to get some of the best writers in the world to just have fun and be collaborative. A couple other things you should know about, Jason. He was in a band before he was a writer. He was in a band called Midnight Project, which had a top 40 song and alternative radio. He also ended up being part of a duo writing team called The Suspects with Mitch Allen,

who used to be in a band called SR-71. They ended up getting a bunch of cuts together. They wrote some of them with Kara DiGuardi, who we discussed in last week's episode. We talk about Wendy Goldstein, who's the executive vice president of Republic Records. She signed the weekend. She signed off Van der Grande. We talked about Damon Beneta, a manager, publisher,

and GM of Psycho Music. There's Zach Katz, the president of BMGUS. We talk about AAM, which is Advanced Alternative Media, one of the biggest management companies in the music business. And we talk about Mio, who is the senior vice president of A&R and head of creative at Disney Music Group. So there you go. That is the notes that you should know for this week.

Enjoy the episode. And here is Anne the Writer is. Welcome to And The Writer Is. I am your host, Ross, Golan. This week's guest is a game-changing writer and producer. There are very few people who are true 100 percenters, and this guy is exactly that. He can sing dope melodies, write relevant lyrics, and produce commercially viable and still progressive records. He started as a frontman of a band that reached Top 40 and since written number one songs for Top 40 artists. From the San

Fern Fernando Valley, this hit musician has written the kind of songs that the The rest of the industry copies. But the one thing that this writer does that the music industry should really copy is how he's found a true balance in his life. And the writer is My Spirit Animal, Jason Evigan. My Spirit Animal. I love that. Yeah.

It's hard to read. That was pretty good, though. Yeah, you know, it's... I would have definitely butcher that. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's what I do. I'm sort of dyslexic, so it makes sense. Anyway, so usually I start by saying, you know, talking about where I first met somebody

because it's like this long email chain or a phone call or something. But I always think it's funny that when you spend your first time in sort of a one-on-one session or with an artist, and that made me think of the Delta Goodrum session. Oh, my gosh. Which is incredible. But That's really good Was that's how you meet

Greg Ev again, your father Can you explain that story a little bit? Okay Okay, so let me remember this Delta walks in Okay, so my studio was at my parents' house And the guest house there Right

I ran to the guest house for them for years And you and I were there first, I believe. Yeah, sure Delta comes in and she's like, oh, flabbergasted, you know, and she's beautiful. She's like, I think I was talking by me, right? Yeah, that's a good Australian accent. My awesome will stay in polite, but my dad, like, pops out of nowhere, like, just a lurker, like, hey. And he's like, all right, I got this, I'll take care of this.

I got you, I got you. He goes out and he gets mud from the front yard. He scoops up mud. This is a way. Yeah, yeah. And he puts Delta's foot up on his counter. And he starts, like, rubbing in the mud into her foot. And this is the artist that we're writing,

yeah, shows up, and she's stunning. She's a beautiful girl. She's got her foot up on the counter of the, in the kitchen. Yeah. And your dad's rubbing mud on her foot because she's got stung by a bee between her toes. Yeah. In between the toes, yeah. And, yeah, he really just, like, handled it.

He's so caveman about it and just totally. And then, you know, he was rubbing the foot. And it kind of broke the ice, I'd say. and then went upstairs We wrote a song About a B-sting Yeah, it's called the sting Yeah, it's called B-sting or something

Yeah Was it good? I have no idea I don't think I've heard it since It obviously wasn't good enough Didn't make the cut But yeah It was fun though

That was in our first session though No no no but I think that No We were our first sessions Were the Venice camp You know before we get to that I was going to say about Your relationship with your dad

is super interesting because, I mean, he was literally, so after Midnight Project was your band for, I don't know, mid-2000s through 2010, 11, 12, something like that. 11, actually, yeah. So, and your dad was in the band? Yeah, okay, so here's what went down. I had left another project I was in for years. What was that?

It's called Delusion. Okay. We actually saw the Epic, Jack Osborne signed us. We were signed up. Oh, cool. To epic. Wow. And I was like,

is that during, like, the heyday of Osbourn? We were on the show. We were the band that he, like, found. Like, he cursed out my guitar player. He's like, you know, the guitar player of delusions an asshole. Was it real? Was it?

It was real. It was a real curse out. It was a real curse out. And my guitar player quit because of it. And that's kind of when the band started falling apart. Yeah. He's like, no one calls me an asshole on TV. It was like, okay, dude.

It's like a 15-year-old boy. Right. You know. But anyway, so I was like, I'm going solo. and I and I uh well there's one band in between we don't talk about I played bass and it was really awkward I wore like weird outfits and shit yeah um but the uh yeah so then I was like I'm going solo so I started doing I didn't actually say that I was just I'd come home after my band practices and I'd make music all through the night and I was like I was just really getting into producing

I like learning reason and pro tools and I was like making all this stuff and and um okay it's kind of That's actually a good story. The girl was dating the time. We broke up, but she kept me around. She's like, you can't date anybody else when we break up. I was like, okay. Which seems like it's an unfair rule. Very unfair.

And meanwhile, she was dating this guy. Right. That's. Who became my manager. Right. Because he heard. What? It's so awkward.

And yeah. Anyways, he, he like came over and he's like, hey, man, heard you making music. And I was like, yeah, dude, check out. And I had, like, I made like a little, like, demo of the stuff. I was making. And he's like, this is amazing. He's like him and his dad like put money into the project. And we like got some guy to make a music video.

And all this stuff started happening. We got like this really cool music video, high budget music video. And then he's like, we're having a record release. Let's have a video release party. Yeah. And I'm like, okay, he's like, you guys got to play. I'm like, there's no us. It's just me.

Right. So I got, I was like, all right, screw it. I got my dad on keyboards. I got my cousin on bass. My friend Tim Carhart on guitar and like this kid J.K. on drums. Anyways, we played it, and like that night, like, label, we had, because I don't, there's like over a thousand people who showed up. Right.

Because all my old bands fans came. It was like this whole thing. Where was it? The Ivar. Okay. Yeah. The club, you know? Sure.

So play that. And then by the next day, we're like, I had a meeting with Evan Bogart. The next day. No way. He's like, he's like, heard about the show, bro. Yeah. He was an agent at the time. Yeah.

Yeah. Anyway, so it just happened really fast. All stuff started happening. And then the band, like, became. him a band and my dad was in the band and flashed to three years later literally like we've developed we played you know Hollywood and we had a huge fan base in Hollywood and all these labels were checking us out and uh we were about to fly out to okay but my dad was never in the promo shots you know right which was kind of sad I was like yeah dad doesn't work with a promo

right right and I had to fire my this is this is this quick story um and then why up is like we want to give you guys a deal we're flying out we're flying out to new york city we're gonna get we got a lemma waiting it was like we're like we're gonna this is it this is the deal yeah and my dad's all excited because he's in the band too and then like the day before the the girl who runs it she calls she's like what is this the fucking potridge family who's that old guy in the back bj and the bear and i was like and he's like the deal's off i'm not not signing you guys where you lied to me it's like it was like the weirdest thing ever what yeah i i i think that's an app

I know it's the weirdest thing in the world, but, you know, having your dad in the band is probably, like, part of a story that people would tell. Yeah, it would, yeah. And we said our harmonies were really good together. And then I kind of, like, kept it going for a while, and I had to tell my dad is, I got to let you go. It was, like, really sad, actually. It was really hard. Kind of messed our relationship for a while. That's so strange.

I mean, is he, like, your first co-writer? Is he, I mean, were you writing with him? I mean... Well, I wrote my first song ever with him when I was 10. Take the long way home. I take the long way home. Yeah. It's cool.

It's got like tempo. That's crazy. So you actually had to fire your dad when you got your record deal. No, I didn't know it before. Before we got the record deal. Did you end up signing? Signed in Motown. You signed a Motown.

And then at that point, had you already done, what was it, the Danity Kane video or some band like that? Wait, what? Wasn't there some video you were in where you were like, where you're like the love interest and you probably don't want this? No, it's fine. I don't care. Which one? Wasn't there some?

Dream? That's what it was. I knew it was something like that. How did you know about that? Because I know everything. What's the, um, because I think you tell me things once and think I don't listen because I talk about. He loves me not. And I matter what you do.

That was like, man, that band you did a puffed out of band. Yeah. I was just an extra in it. And I had like, I like, I like, drove. of like a thing and I was like the love interest of one of the girls Is this like the same era

as all this? Are you just like kind of living like the young Hollywood life being like I'm in a dream video my band's like got a record deal

and like is this all sort of the same now or is that like it's all in the same world yeah so crazy yeah did you go

and I just had to give that shout out I just want people to know that you were in a music video yeah I used to do extra I was an extra on young and the restless bold and beautiful

wow I was always in the background. This is like in my high school days. So you got like a SAG card and did all that? Yeah. Wow. Made little extra bucks in that. I thought, yeah, that's how I made cash when I was a kid.

Sure. I was an extra. Yeah. I mean, SAG after, people don't realize that, but in the music industry. That's my insurance still. Yeah. Sag after is everything for a lot of people. I mean, you get all these writing royalties and all that, but you need to have.

That's how I do my insurance. After. You should probably do that. I mean, I get after it. You sing on every song. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I don't know exactly, whatever. That's another conversation about health insurance.

Yeah. Well, those, like, why don't, I don't know why they don't teach. That's, like, the one thing I think kids should learn in high school is how to do things like taxes, how to do things like health insurance. Why they basically say, you are now in the world, you know, you know trigonometry, but you have no idea how to get health insurance. I think I just figured out with taxes and were like last year. I finally figured it out. Right. And then it's kind of disappointing.

I'm screwed. You were better off not knowing anything. They got to start that earlier. You're right. So did you go from, so why did you stop after Midnight Project? You're on Warp Tour, you have a top 40 song at alternative radio,

and then you... Bang got dropped. That was a bad phone call. After while you have the song, or were you on like a second single? We were about to do a second single. and we were about to open up for the used. Oh, yeah?

Like a big show. And I don't know if we got a call. I got the call from the label. And I didn't, I was on tour of my band. I didn't tell my band for like two months because I knew that it was going to like hit the fan. My drummer had like a bunch of kids. And I just knew.

I said I had to keep this to myself to the tour's end, the tour's over. I knew we got dropped. Yeah. And we tried, and we tried, we did the EP on our own after that. And so, you know, we kept it gone for a little while. And then what happened was I got married to Victoria. We took like a six-week time off of touring to get ready for the wedding.

And in that time period, I wrote heart attack that made a lot of song. Oh, wow. So I was like, I was doing chorus. So you were like a real genuine kind of crossover into the writing world. Yeah, I started really, when I was making my EP, I got really into electronic music. I came by the house that one time. I was like, check out this dump step stuff. Yeah.

Yeah. So I really got into making electronic music. And I was kind of trying to incorporate in my band and my fans were not having it. We want a pit. We want a mosh pit. What's up with this? Like pop of electronic stuff. And I was like, okay.

I got to evolve. Dude, I can't keep making like, you know, like Chival music. Right. So it's kind of natural progression. I started doing this electronic music. And then I did some co-writes, Mitch Allen. and he was kind of getting me in the room with like these co-rides because him and I were making Disney music on the side

we were making like Team Beach musical right that's so weird which I'm the voice of one of the kids on this show I was like the Elvis voice cruising for a bruising That's really good Wait so how did you know Mitch did you like SR 71? No he was like when they were trying to you know

They're like we need a second single they wanted us to write with Mitch Wow So we tried to write a couple songs And that's the beginning of this suspect. And that was the beginning of the crew. And then, yeah, so then, like, at a time, I was like, this is cool. This is a little co-write thing. And when is this?

This is, like, 2011 or something? It's like, in 2010. Okay. So you had heart attack for a minute then before it came out. Yeah, totally. Wow. And then, like, wrote then, but I kind of started seeing, like, the reaction from people. And I, like, this is why she, like, really fun.

I love being in the studio. I love being in a studio opposed to just sitting in a bus all day long or RV. or a van, you know, whatever we were doing at the time. I'm sure Victoria liked having you home more, too. Yeah, yeah. So this was after you guys were married, though, at this point? Or you were getting... We were getting...

Because we broke up for a year, actually. And I was, like... And then I was torn like crazy. It was like a crazy time of my life. It was just gnarly. And then I thought we were done. Got back together, got engaged. I got married with 200 bucks in my account.

It was crazy. I was just like, I took a big leap of faith. And then... And then, yeah, it's like, all right, cool. And heart attack. I don't think people realize that at this point, even having written heart attack, probably your most watched video might be your wedding video. That's definitely.

The wedding video is for sure. It's like a million views or 10 million views. I don't know how many, but more than five. And I'm sure mine is closer to five. Yeah, yeah. It's crazy. That was really cool. How did that happen?

How do you get from like you get married and then all of a sudden everyone just fell in love with it? Well, you know, I was like, I was like, okay. I got to put, so I dumped about $30,000 in promotion for my wedding. Yeah, no, I mean, that's so weird. This is, I mean, look, I mean, we've all been part of songs, even with major label support. Yeah. That can't get, you know, 20,000 views. And then you just have a wedding video.

I don't know anyone, I don't think any of our friends has, like, a viral video. Yeah. You know, an unintentional viral video. Yeah, yeah. What happened with this guy, Lightfield Lewis, a family friend of ours. Uh-huh. Is that his God given name? Actually it is.

Yeah. Are you serious? His dad's Jeffrey Lewis, the actor. Oh, wow. Like, their family's just crazy. Like, I think one of the, like Juliet Lewis is, he's Julia Lewis's sister, brother. Yeah, so we were looking for someone to make the video and life feels like, I make videos. Yeah.

I saw he made one wedding video and it was kind of whack. It was like interesting. I was like, whatever. It's not like a normal. Let's just like use him. I'm sure we can guide him through it. Right. So he films it and like, you know, he's just crazy.

shows up in like plaid shorts and like in every back by the way in all our wedding photos you see him at the camera in the background like just floating around like we're like he's making a movie he's not doing a wedding he doesn't care he doesn't care all about the wedding he's like in the middle of the wedding he's like j j i'm out of cards can you buy and he's he's right if you're meeting him he's nuts but he's great guy we get a lot of good funny stories here after this um so it makes the video in my head i'm like whatever it would be a cool like wacky video we're in Thailand on our honeymoon and get an email he's like hey bro put the

put the video up on YouTube for you to watch I was like okay is that weird he's putting up a birthday on YouTube and uh we we watch it I remember we were up like in this crazy mountain and we watched it and we just started bawling it was like the best video I ever saw right it was insane like he was like a movie we you know yeah

you made a movie yeah and within like I don't know how it happened but it just it caught I think like someone in that at college because I don't know where I got all these from college people like oh my gosh your wedding change are alive and right

we'll literally be in other countries like in Philippines and they'd be like are you the wedding couple are you the dead heart's couple it's like it's crazy it's cool it's like it's kind of actually nice what's dead hearts again I mean I know it was the title of the

right but where did that come from there's a song in there called dead hearts and then he did the theme of like my grandma's death and you kind of tied it in there together you know it's cool so wait so

so you have a you're getting married, it's this whole thing, and then you write heart attack in this process, and you're kind of like, I'm done being in a band. And here's a good song, and people are reacting to it. And by people, I assume, Demi Lovato, or is it not moving there? Well, people like Pia Tuscana cut it.

Oh, interesting. A couple people. I forgot who else did. You know, it was a different type of reaction I ever saw. I was like, oh, like, A&As are calling. And, like, it was different than the band. It was like, the band, I felt like, I was always chasing and banging on doors.

And it was just this, like, crazy struggle for, I mean, years and years and years and years. And then I started writing this pop music. And there was such a different response to the other people. It was like, I was just having fun making music. And it was like, it was all coming. Sure. You know what I mean? It's weird when the doors open up and, you know, all the years that you needed a record deal.

And you get this shitty record deal and you spend all this time working on an album. And now you have to split 100,000. or $300,000 or whatever it is between seven people and everyone's getting their commission at the end you walk away after taxes with jack shit nothing to raise a family on or anything like that and you're sitting there and you're like I spent all this time

10 years developing this project and I essentially sold it for $15,000 for my share or whatever it is and then as a songwriter each song is its own asset every song you write in a band is still lumped into the band It's either lumped into the publishing deal or the record deal And then you write these songs and their assets Yeah

Wendy Goldstein said that to me right in the Right when I was starting to do the co-writing thing And she said, I'm just so jealous Because you can wake up every day And create an asset Wow That's a really good point I mean you know and all those Beatles things about

Like you could write a house And it would build a pool with it Or build a house You write it, sorry, you write a song, you build a house, build a pool, whatever. And in the fact that you can actually do that, I mean, it's such a crazy change from being in a band. Yeah, it's totally night and day. How did you know that you were going to make money from heart attack? I mean, like, I guess maybe not money.

It's not the right question. How did you know that was Pia Tuscano, you know, cuts it. Is that American Idol? I think so. Yeah. I think so, yeah. And then, you know, how does it go from that to being, you know, probably top 10, top five record? Yeah, top three.

Top three record? Yeah, top three. Yeah, okay, so then I actually, it was, I had this huge, it was like a huge week for me, actually. It was like this big pinnacle. I had signed with BMG, so that was cool. And I got a little advanced from that too, so it was exciting. I was like, whoa, I did advance, you know. And not shared.

And not share with 30 people, yeah. So I had that, and then I signed with Damon Veneta. Oh, really? Yeah, he signed me there first, which I also, yeah, which is crazy. I walked in, I walked into the office and he started singing a song that I wrote when I was 15 because he was like an old delusion fan. Yeah, Damon's amazing. Damn is awesome.

Okay, so I signed with them, and the same week that Zach Katz took over, I was like, oh my gosh, I'm screwed, dude. Like, Zach's not going to know who I am. I'm like, I'm going to get lost in the shuffle. All these people, like, Carrie DeGuard. All those people had met, put a really good word in. So, Zach's like, hey, I've heard great things about you. Let's meet up.

So we met up, and their company started, like, taken off. And that same week, I signed with AAM. And I met Mio, and I played Mio heart attack. It was all one week. It happened. And it was like, he got, he's like, we're getting Demi on it. Demi came in the next week and cut it. It was like all this week that just kind of changed him.

life sort of yeah so we got the question with that well that you know it's weird I mean okay so here's here's a song that goes that goes top three and it's not you know of all the songs where you're at now where there's a different sort of thought out

structure I feel like when I listen to that song it's like all the math is not right but it works like there are chord changes there's like different it's a strange song for it to be so successful and then those are the songs

that are most successful. You know what I mean? I want to go back to that more. Really? Yeah. Because I didn't know, I didn't know who Max Martin was. Never heard of him at the time. Right.

Didn't know who Dr. Luke was. I was just like, let's make a, I mean, there was the bridge, by the way, the bridge was like a crazy dub set bridge at the time. Yeah. I was just like, let's just make a crazy wild song. And, you know, Sean, like, I was like, do a crazy chord there.

And he was making these crazy chords. And we were like, having so much fun with it. You know, I just didn't, like, know what I was doing. Like, there was no person in, you know, I hadn't worked with hundreds of hundreds of writers who'd be like the math's wrong or the math strong. Right. You know, which I'm, I think I'm one of the least analytical writers I work with.

Yeah. But I agree with that. But I still, you know, you know, it's a, there's something special about, like, before you learn all these tricks. Yeah. You know? Your instincts are so often really catchy, partly because they're not mathematical. You know, in a session, you naturally just start building a track that's, I don't know,

I don't know another producer where at the end of a session, the demo sounds that close to the final. Oh, really? Wow. I don't know anybody who's like that. Most people, they're close or they need a couple days or something, but in the process, your instincts tend to, to be what shaped the song. You know? I don't know if other people have ever mentioned that to you,

but the way you treat a demo in the moment, it's much more instinctual than most people. But I think that's what people react to, because it has like a life to it. Yeah, it's hard actually because, yeah, that's interesting you say it, because after the fact, like after the session, there's such an energy that went into making it

and it's all there. And then I'm like, okay now I got to now don't mess it up you know right like our stuck in the feelings stuck in the feeling song was like really really hard because it was the song was almost done in the session yeah but I'm like I gotta take this up into the step but everything I kept adding was taking away from it so it was like a really you know I was walking on ice the whole time like do you ever just say yeah I'm working on I'm working on it and then just send the demo back I mean you could almost do that was something like double vision also yeah it's like

that was one where the double vision yeah it's like that was constantly chasing the the demo Yeah, yeah, totally. Because then other people get involved in mixing and mastering and adding verses and all that stuff. And you're like, everybody out of here. Yeah. Like that demo is great. I mean, how often do you just, you know, not replace anything and just say, this is a moment. This is great.

Yeah. Well. Can you do that? You could. But I think when you go home, you kind of hear like, I can replace that clap. I can. Right. Put a little bit of this underneath there, boost it up a little bit.

But, yeah. Who do you learn from then? I mean, if you're, when you're saying that, you know, you kind of go from this band thing and then you co-write with Mitch and you start getting these cuts outside of that. And then, but you're saying replace the clap. Where do you learn that from? Is that from listening to other people's or is it from collaborating and other people saying, no, that clap is too mid-term like mid-range.

Well, yeah, there's both. I think, like, you know, there's, it's funny. There's like a few vital sessions I remember. I work with producers where I learned a lot. I worked with Benny for a few days. One time I learned a lot. I worked with wallpaper. I learned,

a Ricky, I learned, I remember one time I was like, it's all about making stuff small. And I was like, oh, what does that mean? What does that mean?

And I realize, I'm like, yeah, like smaller the clap, the harder it hits. It's like super weird stuff like that. Like, what does that mean?

Like literally like if it's a single clap. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you could be single clap. It could be a bunch of claps. It could be a bunch of claps. You know.

Right. But it's interesting how those little moments people say are like, you know, the very like game-changing moments in your life. You're like, oh, wow, that's funny. I was always making huge claps thinking it was going to hit out. But like if I take away, it actually makes it bigger. Right. But yeah, but for me a lot, like, you know, Sunny Moore is like such an incredible producer.

Skrlich. Scurlics, really, yeah. And like, just like listening to his. When he first started doing Scrilix, right. Just that was so, for me, it was so game-changing these sounds I never heard before. So I, like, study those.

Sure. Just studying, studying music, listening, referencing back and forth and being like, oh, wow, their clap is way bigger. Or that kick is like a totally different sound than I thought it was in my head. Because a lot of times I'm trying to chase the sound I hear in my head.

Right. I'm like, I don't know if you guys ever do this, but you'll reference like, oh, dude, you got to pull up the song from 90, you know, this A-S-Based song, the production's sick. And then they, but the way you hear it, your head is nothing like it actually was and you're like dang so then you try to chase what you

you try to trace what you hear in your head you know right yeah do you feel that way when you're because you're you have a lot of writing credits where you're not a producer on it yeah you end up um is it hard to just walk in and be a writer and not add production to songs or do you tend to do you tend to always now get a little more involved in the production because you have yeah more experience as a producer i mean talk dirty you're just writer on it yeah and yet that's a huge song yeah yeah you know and then there's i guess most of these lovers on the sun you're a producer on it too right yeah i think i'm perused on that one and dangerous too right in dangerous um yeah like with uh with talk dirty though it was cool because i got to like

the ricky's track was we heard it were like this is a hit like yeah it's just so but the arrangement was totally different so we like you know we chopped up the range of there and made you know which was really fun and we added the all the who's in the background. And so we still got to like, you know, do that kind of stuff. Like to, like, it's always fun just to sprinkle stuff on top. Like, even if you don't get production credit, that's not about that. Do you still do writing sessions where you're not the producer?

Yeah, and I want to do more, actually, because like, it's such a nice brick, you know? Like, I had to do all the stuff with Geta. I just went to London with him and I probably won't, yeah, I probably won't produce a lot of that stuff. Great. I mean, not great. Yeah, I mean, do like. I said that as if you're a production. It sucks.

I like it. No. When I hear a track that is like, you know, like it's just a hit. It just sounds, you know, like the mic karen thing. Like, this is the next single. There's no top line on it yet, but the track's such a hit, you know. Those are exciting moments. It's weird because I get those.

And, you know, most of the time it's because there's a giant sample in it. Yeah. And that's why people can say this is a hit. You know, what's crazy about talk to you. I didn't know that about talk to you. Right. I was like, this is sick. And then like, they're like, hey, we're doing splits. So you got, I think, four.

Right. Oh, okay. So, two of the songs, I won't, you know, because we'll get into, like, other life stuff. But I'm kind of, like, it was always you is my favorite song that I've ruined five record. Sick, thanks, man. It's so good. How do you feel about that song?

Like, I mean, it obviously is like. That was, like, the white unicorn. That was, like, one of my favorite songs I've ever written in my life. Yeah. It was the one that. like open up doors to work with Madonna and everyone who heard it was like this is the, you know, I got calls from

you know, big label execs who were like, this is the new sound of this artist, we're going to do this whole thing. And it was literally like, and all the writers would come to me and like, bro, that song was always you had. It's so funny. It was like this, it was weird.

We just literally, it was, I mean, it felt progressive and you had like that Phil Collinsy kind of drum fill. And there wasn't the, d, dund, dund, d'et, happening really. The drive soundtrack was doing it. like some like you know Oliver

you know Oliver was doing that sound but in the pop world it wasn't happening yet right you know so we just took a chance I was like too I'm just gonna do like a no drums till the second verse and you know like Sam came in with the melody for the hook and then I like just started you know playing like a major verse like

because the chorus is minor and you know at first I was like that's not gonna work I'm like dude it'll be crazy to do like this major to minor change and all this kind of stuff And then we started seeing it happening on like pop radio. And, you know, like a lot of that kind of sound was happening. And then it was, you know, Maroon 5 took the song. Never made it actual single, though. But it's funny how it opened so many doors, though.

So in my opinion, it was like it was a super successful song, in my opinion, because it helped the monsters. It helped me so much. Sure. And it was like, it was just, it was satisfying to make it, you know. People tend to think if it's not, you know, a number one or top five. Yeah. We talk about that a lot.

on this is that, you know, then it's somehow not, it's not successful enough or something like that. But I don't think people realize that that's an amazing accomplishment, you know, to still have that song come out in the world because it is progressive. And it changes from minor to major. And it's, you know, it's super interesting how it has that feel. And the truth is that nothing is as satisfying when you make the song. Right. I mean, that's what I've come to realize to, like, even if that song, you know, even if that song,

was like a number one hit, it still wouldn't have been a satisfying when we first made it. When I was first like, dude, check out this drumville or whatever. These moments. Sure. And that's like, that's what I always tell my friends too that are, you know, like if a struggling song or something, I'm like, believe me, dude. Like hearing a song on the radio is cool. Getting the checks are cool, but nothing more satisfying than the creation of it.

Right. Speaking of the creation of songs, I always think about how I was upstairs when you were writing Chains downstairs. Oh, yeah, yeah. And, like, coming downstairs and being like, yeah, that sounds really good. Going up and I don't know what we were working on. It was one of our writing camps. You were working on peaches up there.

Right. I mean, in that week we did, booty bounce was just going to end up coming out. Yep. And we did, you know, stuck on a feelings that week, I think. Yep. And Chains. Chains. I mean, I'm sure there was probably another one in there.

Yeah. I'm forgetting a successful week. Yeah, it was really good to me. But Chains is one of those songs. Of all the songs you have. I don't know another song that you have that so many people reference in sessions you're not a part of. Really? Yeah.

Like there's not another session that people say, well, we should do the thing that they do in chains. Or we should do. And that's when, because we've had a lot of songs together, at least written a lot of songs together, if nothing else. Yeah. But you have Jason Eviganisms. Really? Yeah, that are like starting to become part of the zeitgeist. And you don't even, because you're not in those sessions.

Wait a minute. You would never know. This is crazy. For real? Yeah. I always wondered that because I referenced stuff all the time, but that's pretty cool. And that's how people progress. It's not stealing.

It's like a real like homage and it's a bit. You end up in these things where people say, oh yeah, well then we'll do this kind of drop. And you and Ricky have a similar thing with the way you guys structure arrangements when there are drops, but you have your own style. Yeah, totally. And I know the first time I worked together. I was like, do you like work so similarly. Yeah. Yeah.

You just hear people say, we should try to do that. And I'm usually in the session saying, well, either call Jason or let's probably do something different because nobody's going to match your natural instinct for how chains works. That is such a, that epitomizes you as a producer to me. You know, I know that song. I've been a part of similar songs that we've done, not similar in like the actual song. but I just know how that structure feels like it's you. It's cool. But it doesn't, it doesn't, you know, take away.

Sometimes I look at producers where they put their stamp on it, and I think that that takes away from the artist. Do you find yourself at times saying, you know, I'm going to be, I have to, you know, this artist isn't unique enough, so I need to go and put in a little extra flare on the production? Or do you ever have times where you say, like, you know, I need to pull everything out because this artist is, their voice is such an instrument.

Yeah. Both. You have to do both. And I think that's what, if you want to be a producer that's going to be around for a while, you got to, it's not just thinking about yourself, not thinking, you know, I got to put a bunch of tricks in there. Some people see that I'm a cool producer. Right.

You got to be like, okay, this song, I don't want to ruin it. I got to just back it up with whatever I got to back it up with. I think the song comes first, you know? Yeah. I think that's the main thing. Always sing about the song first, and then just try to back it up, have a nice bed for it to sit on.

Not to take a step back, but, because I know we've talked a lot about songs, but the, one of the things that I mentioned in the very beginning was how, and this is like the total exact opposite thing than what we were just talking about, but maybe it's not.

There's no one I know who's more like spiritually stable right now in the music industry. You know, I feel like, I'm sure there are people who are spiritual or religious or whatnot, but it's something you're very vocal about. And I think it's really interesting to be the music industry and being spiritual and religious seem to be kind of inverse relationships most of the time. And maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the creation of songwriting. Maybe that is spiritual. I don't know how you treat that.

but how is that how do you how does spirituality influence your writing um because you're not writing yeah i'm not writing i'm not writing like yeah spiritual you know what i mean but yeah well i i think that everything i mean i i kind of look at life like everything that i have everything i do everything it's just like a gift it's just like it's just like channeling uh-huh so um if i if i if i go if i start my day off the way i'd love to start my day which i don't always do but if i kind of start it off just like in prayer, meditation, just kind of like tapping into the source, tapping into God and starting my day that way, then I can really feel like everything I did that day was through him, you know,

or through the source of it all. But, you know, there's definitely times where I feel like I'm having real spiritual moments. It was always you for sure was like kind of what that song is about too, you know. And then there's songs when you do talk dirty, You were just like, you don't feel tapped in this period at all. Right. You just write a song after you were like, what was that? That was crazy.

Well, what do you say that? No, no, no. Because there's a different type of thing that happens when you are writing a song. It's like moving these emotions in your body and you feel like. Sure. And sometimes you're doing writing. Yeah, then sometimes you're just writing and fun and it's just, you know. Right.

But yeah, there's something really special when you really are. It's funny we were talking about this yesterday. Like how to stay tapped in. to the spiritual world when you're making music, you know what I mean? Because if you're in a room with people who aren't on the same page, sometimes you totally just, it doesn't happen, you know?

Wait, what do you mean that they're not also? Well, no, yeah, there's a different, like, there's just a different energy in the room. You know what I mean? And like, like, the conversations are different. It's just, it's not, I'm not saying, one's good, one's bad. Right.

It's a different type of feeling. You know, like, there is this crazy feeling when you write a song. And we're like, oh, this is so, like, deep. You know, like, does it... And it just feels like it's coming from somewhere else. And it's like, where's it's coming from, you know? Right.

So that's a pretty amazing, if you want to happen. I mean, I guess I kind of know the answer to this, but have you always been like that? No. I haven't always been that. What change? How do you go from... I mean, is this while you're in a band,

and then all of a sudden you're like, I'm feeling it. That's why I'm writing a certain way. It's when you start, you know. Yeah, so I was never, okay, so I wasn't raised in any kind of religion. I'm still, I would never say I'm a religious person by any means. That's what I called you, my spirit. Yeah, yeah, my spiritual, yeah, because I think that religion is, um,

so I'll just be open, I was to say. So I like, I love Jesus. I think he's like the, the best. And I just, I just like, uh, when I was 20, I think 27 years old, that's when I, when I, I was like, let me just check this out, see what's about. And it just changed my life totally. Right. And I think the religion side of it, what people took a message.

He had an amazing message for the world, and people took that and made a religion around it and made this group of people. And it becomes this kind of like, we're the Christians and you're the not Christians. And I think that's not at all. I mean, he died a Jew. He was a Jewish guy. Like, and his teachings and his message and who he was and how he wanted us to. treat humans and love others and love ourselves and it was this incredible incredible message that got so perverted um so anyway so for me it's like i just try to follow his teachings and and follow

him right and it's my life has just it's become so much more uh just fruitful sure since since i since i like just invited him into my life and i was like you know started following him so um I've actually never talked through a microphone about it. I mean, it's cool. No, it's very cool.

I love it. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's what it's, you know.

But I mean, you and I've had, you know, we've got dinners and long, long conversations about this. And, and, you know, both of us probably believe in a lot of the same things.

And it's just semantics. Yeah. On some level. Totally. Um, but one thing that you do that I don't do is I don't go and do the level. the level of charity that you do?

I mean, I'll do a couple charitable events, but you go to Thailand. And is that directly because of religion? Or is that, sorry, sorry, not religion. Is that, sorry, no, but is that directly because of the teachings of Jesus? Or is that because you go to Thailand because this is the right thing to do as a human? Yeah. I think so when I first

We went to Thailand for a honeymoon Yeah And we went just for a honeymoon Like I'm I was like I want to go in like the nicest hotels I want to stay in the nicest places And I know because that's the way I've always Always been

But when I got there And I started meeting these people Who were Who a lot of them didn't have much Right And all I wanted to do Is just hang out with them And talk with them

And love on them And just be cool with them And I started realizing like This is what This is what really fires me up being around this kind of thing. So then our next trip we went out and we're like let's just go in

let's stay in like let's go find the villages and we started living in the villages and we started realizing like this is really what the connection is and you can do it in our backyard too. We just have an attraction to this country you know? So it's funny we talk about it because

two nights ago I had like a huge this year has been a really interesting year I've had a lot of success I got a house like all this kind of things but I've felt a little I haven't felt as high as I've felt in the other years you know I've had

in the eyes of the world I should be like at the you know right but I was actually I was praying and I was like I was like what I want to feel you more I want to feel you God more like what is it I was like and I just hit me I was like

I haven't been serving as much as I'd like as much as I should and then that's what Jesus said he's like if you serve you'll the more you serve and the more you give and the more you are outward and off of yourself, you're gonna, life is gonna be, you have so much more freedom in your life,

you're gonna more happy. And I, and it didn't hit me until it. And I was like, whoa, this year has been a lot about, been a lot about me. It's been a lot about, you know, just like at a house. I gotta protect the house. I gotta keep working harder and harder, harder.

And then, you know, so yesterday, actually, we went to this little, these little school with these kids out in East L.A., and we were just hanging out with them. I was looking these kids eyes. And I was like, oh yeah, that's it. That's where the real joy, I think we were putting this earth to be in community and to love each other and to not just be focusing on ourselves. And when we are, when we're off of ourselves, that's when the love explodes.

You can't just show up at a school and say, I'm going to go look at kids' eyes. So how do you get from, from like, so I broke in the back, right? I broke in the back. Let me look at your eyes, kid. How do you go from like, I'm praying about me? things so like here I am in the school and Southside. So my wife and I started the nonprofit called

Picture This and what we wanted to do was we don't want to make like this thing about like there's so many charities on the world who are you know. Yeah. Helping the poor and all these things and giving food and all stuff which is beautiful and amazing. I think like there's a huge void in just human connection

and so we're like let's let's figure out a way to pair up kids in America with kids in these other third world countries through through picture like picture pen pal so like they're so we we pair up these friendships and it's it's beautiful to see these kids are like it's happening and you get to see these these kids in these school like write letters like I go to school every day I'm learning more English because I'm so excited for our friendship and right do you see it happening it's like oh this is really how anyway so there's our housekeepers actually uh their kids are involved in it and so we went to their

their Sunday school church on Sunday, just to go hang out with the kids and to kind of like do activities with them. And that's how I broke into the school and looked at all their eyes. Yeah. Yeah, it was just cool. It was cool.

You know, just to see that there's such a pureness in children that it's like, it's a reminder. Like, okay, that's what I want to try to constantly get back to, you know? Absolutely. Because we were all that way at some point. And then someone breaks your heart and then you get a little callous. and then someone steals from me,

then you get hard, and then, you know, that person, then before you know, you're 32 years old and you get this kind of like hardened heart. Yeah. You know, and it's all, and you see this kid's like,

yeah, I've got to get back to just being that, there's such a light in there, you know? Right. It's crazy because you're so, um, you're so passionate about this. And anybody who knows you knows you're passionate about this. Yeah.

And when we talk about music, it's like, this is our job. I love music You know You know yeah You totally like you love You love music

But you're truly passionate about Yeah About how you're so fulfilled right now Yeah You just went to that school You know Yeah When I talk about this

The spirit world I talk about the physical world I get excited It's cool But when I talk about The spirit world I literally feel like Like I get hit with like

Like viking All over my body or something You know what I mean Like I get It's such a You know There's just I feel like there's, even everywhere around us all the time,

there's a whole other side that we can, yeah, we don't see that, that, because we're just all this flesh and bone and t-shirts and all this kind of stuff. But I feel like there's a whole other world out there that we're, when I tap into that, I feel like, I just become alive, you know. Bringing back to music, is it strange to be in what, I guess it feels like it's a secular industry.

Mm-hmm. And yet I know so many people who are not secular. Yeah. You know, is it something that is a facade? Is it just my strange perspective? Or is it that people tend to be quiet about their, you know, their view on the world? I think that it's definitely not cool to, like, talk about God. And we're in, like, the new age world is very about yourself and you could do this.

And we can, you have the power. You have the power to do this. So it's almost like if you talk about, if you put it on a higher power. It's almost like you have like a weakness to you, I feel like. But there's, but I think it's, I think it's kind of the opposite. I feel like if you're tapping into something that's that powerful, there's so much more power in it than us just try to do it down here. Like I pay my taxes and do my bills and I can do this all myself. And then when you fall apart and you're like, now what?

You know? But it's like if you feel if I just, yeah. So I think that there, it's funny because whenever I talk to most people and it gets deep, everyone's either like has faith or they're searching or they're really

really comfortable where they are like and they're just they're cool with it so you know what I mean but I think there's always there's always good conversations to be had about it which I love that I love yeah

we've had some great conversations yeah and I think you realize it and part of those conversations made me realize because the people around us will then sort of you know peek through the window and they'll be like I'm, I'm spiritual and you're like, you? You're like, I'm spiritual.

You're like, you do. It's like the opening scene of like beauty and the beast or something. Anyway, so, but in the beginning of that where everyone like peeks through the window and out the door, it's like, and they start like peeking their head out. I feel like that's sort of what it's like when you're around because people feel comfortable, you know, finally just saying like, oh, there's my, like, you're almost like like a pastor in the music industry

I feel like even though you don't talk about just because we've I guess because we're also around people we're really comfortable with but they tend to open up around you in a way they don't when you're not all I can say is like if just if you have any questions

just read there's literally there's four books where Jesus was around talking he was only remember three years like 2000 is 33 years old just go read it there's literally it can take it You can maybe two hours. You can read all there is on Jesus, literally. And then make your decision if he was this, you know, evil man who's walking around saying you're going to hell, you're going to hell, you're going to hell.

Yeah, he's not really like that. He was pretty amazing. Yeah. You know what I mean? Are you 32? 32, yeah. When's your birthday? June 10th.

So when you turn 33, that's your Jesus year, right? That's it. And it's also the year that, you know, Thomas Jefferson writes the Declaration of Independence. Did he really when he was 33? Uh-huh. Dang. Oh, no, 33 is like a very strangely... Yeah, there's 27 where you're supposed to die, which I think...

I almost did, actually, I think. How so? So I had like a Vicodin addiction. Right. I wouldn't nuts. 27 was a rough year. Yeah. That was a dark, dark year.

But that's the same year that you kind of find your spiritual... Yeah, it was the same year that I kind of got picked back up. Yeah. Yeah. So that was a good switch. It was a nice little. Better than the alternative. Yeah.

Yeah, luckily the ground was like a like a trampoline. I didn't land it. It didn't catch me. I was like, boom, hit it and bounce back up. I'm sure living in L.A., you went around, you know, knew a lot of people at 27 that had much, you know, crazier falls, especially as a musician. Oh, yeah, I have a lot of friends who have a lot of friends who have died in overdoses and crazy. That's like, and it's not like you grew up in a roof area. No, no, I didn't grow up in a privileged town, you know, grew up in the,

Valley. Like, I think it was just, there was a lot of drugs around. It's crazy. Yeah. Does that scare you as far as you raising a family in? Not really. I don't think. So I think that if, you know, I mean, you can only have so much influence on your child, I think.

But I just feel like I'm going to be homeless with my kid for sure, like my dad was, you know. Yeah. Like, I think that he'll probably go off and do his wild phase like I did. but as long as there's, you know, something great to come home to. Yeah. I think that you'll, for the most part, there's always a chance, but I got faith that it'll be all right. Yeah, man. We'll see.

No, I'm like, that'll be crazy. Dang. Well, on that note, having faith that everything will be all right. Yeah. It's a good place to slow down. Yeah, there you go. You know, I'm proud that you've always managed to maintain who you are. You know, especially because the switch into the songwriting community is a very familial atmosphere,

but none of us are actually family. And so you don't know when people really find out who you really are, how they're going to think. And you've always been very open with who you are. And I think that's why you have your place in this community, is that people know what they get when they're with you. They know they're going to get somebody who's really fun, who's really instinctual. The songs are going to come out. at the end, I know anytime we have a session that at the end, that demo is something we can shop.

You know, that's an amazing accomplishment that you don't even realize it's happening. Really? Yeah. But, you know, you should be proud of yourself. This is like, the reason why you've hit this new level is because you're being an honest writer. And that's sort of our whole point is how do you get to that moment? When you talk about heart attack and how you want to get back to that thing, you're being really specific right now with your writing,

and you get probably a little more into the nuances that you didn't before. But you're still maintaining who you are because chains, which happened five years later, still sounds like you. Oh, cool. So you can keep trying to get back. So you know from a fan's point of view, you are consistently coming out with Jason Avigan's song. So I admire that.

Thanks. I mean, he's a lot of coming from you. You're super talented. Well, thanks. By the way, congrats on the big hit right now.

Yeah. Yeah. That's happening. That's good. It is good. Dude, that means a lot. Thanks. That's like best interview

I've had in ever, actually, I think. Good. I've done, I mean, I've done, you know, let's think,

I worked where I would do about 25 interviews a day. Yeah. It's the best interview I think ever had. I love that. Oh, yeah. Cool. Well, thank you.

Thank you, man. Thanks for listening to this episode of And The Writer Is. If you want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed, be sure to check out our Spotify playlist or visit our website at and thewriter is.com. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe to us on iTunes. You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter. And The Writer Is is produced by Joe London, edited by Miles Bergsmah, and published by Big Deal Music.

A special thanks to Jeff Sparger. David Silberstein from Mega House Music and Michael White. Until next time, this is Ross Bowling.