And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 62: Teddy Geiger

Episode Date: June 3, 2019

She is a multi-platinum, Grammy-nominated artist, songwriter and producer hailing from Rochester, New York. At the age of 15 she signed her first record deal with Columbia Records and released her debut album, ‘Underage Thinking’. The album’s lead single, “For You I Will (Confidence),” quickly found a spot in the Top 40. After a brief stint as a teen pop star, she began to co-write and produce music for other artists. She has written songs for acclaimed artists across the musical spectrum including P!nk, Maroon 5, Anne-Marie, Dej Loaf, Leon Bridges, Christina Aguilera, One Direction, Tiesto, Matoma, Empire of the Sun, Niall Horan, 5 Seconds of Summer, Birdy, DJ Snake and DNCE. Most notably her compositions and productions with Shawn Mendes have earned her multiple #1s and include the 2017 BMI song of the year “Stitches,” hit singles "Treat You Better,” “Mercy,” "There's Nothing Holdin' Me Back,” the Grammy nominated “In My Blood,” as well as Shawn’s new single “If I Can’t Have You”. And she played an integral role on the Billboard #1 self-titled Shawn Mendes album producing and co-writing 11 tracks. As an artist, she recently released her new solo album ‘LilyAnna’ under the moniker teddy<3 which features the singles “Body & Soul” and “I Was in a Cult”. And The Writer Is…Teddy Geiger!This episode is sponsored by BMI. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to Season 4 of And the Writer is. I'm your host, Ross Golan. I've written with hundreds of artists and writers over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life, the industry, politics, composition, whatever. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs, and most importantly, who the people are who write the songs.

I'm producing this with The Great Joe London, big deal music publishing and mega house music management. If you want to listen to the songs we discuss in this podcast, follow us on our socials, find out about special events, or buy some of our merchandise. Go to our website www. www.

and the writer is.com. Oh, and if you enjoy End the Writer Is, please rate and subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or whatever your preferred podcast listening site is. This week's episode is sponsored by B&R. Full disclosure, Joe and I are both BMI songwriters. So we didn't write this, but we believe it. BMI, we celebrate your talent, value your music, and champion your rights. To all our songwriters and composers, your passion is ours. BMI, music moves, our world.

Welcome to And the Writer is. I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's world-class songwriter and artists released her debut album 12 years ago. She has since Penn's songs with some of of the biggest pop artists in the world, including One Direction, Nile Horn, Maroon 5, and five seconds of summer. She's claimed the BMI pop song of the year was Sean Mendez's breakout single stitches, and the June Award single of the year with Sean's, there's nothing holding me back. These two writers have since become inseparable collaborators, having co-produced and co-written the majority of Sean's albums, which basically live at the top of Billboard. But she doesn't stop there. This year,

she has released two solo singles and will be releasing a solo album herself. This Buffalo New York native is not just an LGBTQ role model, but she once acted with Emma Stone and Rain Wilson in The Rocker.

Look it up. Anyway, I digress. And the writer is my friend, Teddy Geiger. Hi. Hi. Thank you. That was glorious. glorious. I didn't realize you had acted in movies until I was paying attention

because I've known you as a writer and as an artist. Were you always acting? Did you act when you were little? I know. When I got signed as an artist when I was a baby, I, like, as a part of the thing, they were like, go out for this thing. Like, Sony's looking for new Sony artists to be on this show,

to play a musician and I went in for that role and got that role and then I got another musician role and then I did like a couple years of like going out on fruitless auditions which is terrible why is it terrible? Because I don't want to be an actor

so it wasn't great like I wanted to be making music working on making music and I was doing that all of the time and then like I'd have to like drive across town like in a rush hour traffic to go to like this thing in Santa Monica at like 4.30 and I didn't prepare for it because I was like working on music

and then like I'd show up and like half-ass do it because I didn't care but I was obligated. I was 19 and then eventually I just was like I have to leave L.A. and moved back home just so I could get to... To Buffalo? Yeah, to Rochester. Let's go from the beginning. So you were born in Buffalo.

I know you lived in Rochester, obviously, because we'll get that. Yeah. So you were born in Buffalo. What did your parents do? Were they musicians? My parents, my dad's an electrical engineer. My mom taught earth science and was a teacher. My brother, yeah.

He went to school for tech stuff. Just got his first job. He's very excited. Congratulations. My sister's going to art school. Okay. No, no music. My grandparents are musical.

What did they do? My grandpa played. trombone and like big band stuff i forget who Tommy dorsey is the guy i don't know he was big on the in the in the big band circuit and like new york upstate new york yeah so that guy he played trombone with him and then my grandpa obsessively rearranges old songs and like combines them with like it like even now he's 90 and if you go into his room there's like just like all this sheet music that he prints out and it's like it's like all this red pencil and just like he just like re and then he like never quite figures out how to play it all the way he wants it but he's like been working on it since

since i was like born like certain songs he's like yeah this one is still not quite right he's just like in it whoa and has like this whole does he play piano stuff too yeah he plays piano well so there's the music so do why why rochester they have actually a really good I know this is weird, but they have a good music scene. Eastman's one of the best music schools in the world. Yeah. I mean, why Rochester? Your family moved there?

My dad got a job there. Yeah, right. When I was like five or six and we all uprooted and moved, or maybe I was eight, something like that. When did you start playing music? I started playing piano when I was really young, like five or six. And I got a guitar when I was like 10 and started like, I started writing like little shit. My first song was the song. little Tommy Blackbird.

I wrote on the piano. Can you sing it? No, it was something like Little Tommy Blackbird sitting in a tree and that is like it was like a little melody on the piano that I'd play and sing.

And then like I actually started writing stuff maybe when I was like 10 or 11 and I got like a four track recorder Tascam and the Porto Studio like that one. Yeah. And and they started recording stuff that I would write. Well, you know, one of our earlier guests is the great John Ryan.

Yes. So this is one of the craziest facts of, and the writer is history to me, but you and John Ryan were in a band in high school together. Yeah. The odds of that are infinitesimally small. When you were in a band with John, did either of you guys realize what was capable in that band? Tell me about meeting someone like John Ryan at that age, and both of you guys becoming to the biggest songwriters in the world is just shocking to me.

So tell me a little bit about that. We first met. I played bass in this ACDC cover band, which I literally showed up for like 30 minutes. to a rehearsal and then my mom was like, you gotta come home. And I never, I didn't see him again until I like auditioned bass on the phone or whatever. Showed up, did that. Then I saw him again freshman year of high school. We ended up going in the same high school.

And like, I was like, oh, John, like, remember I came over that one time and played bass and the thing? And he was like, oh, yeah. And then he like gave me his demo, which was called Deek. It's like a, I think there were 12 something songs on there. D-E-E-K. We just listened to it the other night. Was it good?

Yeah. And I was like sick. Did he play all the instruments on it? Or do you remember? No, he played everything and had like a multi-track recorder as well. And then like I gave him some stuff I'd worked on and we like traded demos. Your demos being on the task cam stuff? Well, yeah.

But then I would I would get them off the task cam via sound recorder and then put them on CDs. Right. What was your band called? It was called faction. Okay. But before that we spent so much time, like, he'd come over or whatever, and we'd just, like, make random stuff that wasn't even band stuff. And then, like, after a year or so, then it developed until, like, okay, we got a bass player.

And then that was, like, more defined sound. Did you want to be a professional musician, or is that not really something you think about at that point? I remember like sitting in class and being like, yo, I did. But I also didn't, I don't know. I remember like sitting in class with him at some point and being like, dude, our band's like so much better than a lot of these bands that get signed. Like, and bands are getting signed. We could get signed.

Yeah, exactly. But like, yeah, I don't know. Yeah, but I thought that with my bandmates, some who listen to this. So shout out to you guys. But when my high school band, when we tried to play music recently in the last 10 years, years. Yeah. And just not really up to par for what you, it's like we were, I think we thought we were maybe better than we were. You guys were actually better. No, but at the time, at the time, like, getting signed wasn't, you know, in like 2000, from like the, like, 1990 to like 2005, like,

people got signed. Like, you could like have an okay thing and it would be like, we're set. Like, It was still kind of like that boom like coming off the 80s and all that shit and like the digital shit hadn't like completely like taken over you know like like it was just happening like the nerds at school would burn you a CD but not like everybody knew how to steal music yet

so it's like they were still making so much money that it was just like I feel like it was just like you hear some bands and you're like oh shit like even like what's the band I mean and it's really good but the collective soul. It's like when you listen to that and how that's recorded

you're like I mean it's good but also like it's not like and then you listen like what's on the radio today and it's like the bar of like how shit has to sound has just been like raised like it used to you could make some shit in your bedroom and like it would be on the radio like I mean you still can but what you can make and I don't know what I'm saying.

Sure. Sure. Like that song sounds like it was recorded on like a Faustex, like little like digital four track with like the effects on it. I don't know who recorded. Someone probably amazing recorded us. At the time. But at the time you needed, you know, you need outboard gear to, you didn't have computers

that emulated compressors and being able to record even a fake studio in, it now, you know, sort of sounds pretty good because you can, you know, garage band is on everybody's phone and it has compressors in it. Right. So it can emulate a studio. And yeah, I mean, at the time, I think you could record stuff, but not everybody knew how to use it. Also, kids now, I don't even know if they, a lot of people don't study trombone to start. They get computers and become DJs.

And so they start producing when they're, you know, you know, growing up so yeah and there's so much information online about how to yeah you know like like before i guess where you'd have to like be the apprentice of somebody who works in a studio and is like knows how to do everything yeah now you can kind of go online there's like pensado's place or like yeah like so many places to get little tips when did you record or write a song with faction or on your own where you're like this is not just you know, as you say, you were sitting in class, my music's as good as what I'm here on the radio,

I could do this, I can get a record deal. Was there a song, or were there songs where you started thinking, you know, this is the real deal? And, you know, obviously, you kind of get discovered around that age, right? Uh-huh. So how do you get discovered? What happened? My mom forced me to do a reality show

called In Search of the Partridge family. And I didn't want to go because, I had to be away from my girlfriend. And I also thought it was cheeseball to be on a reality show called In Search of the Partridge family. But she kind of made me do it. Why? Because I was spending all my time doing music.

And it was like, I was like sleeping through all my classes and like staying up and working on music and like kind of like clearly devoted to it. And so she was like, we have to make something happen with music because it seems like that is either going to happen

or like we're like really going to have to figure something out so I think she was like cool this is like a way to funnel all of that and then I met Billy Mann who's songwriter producer who was working behind the scenes on that show and sent him a bunch of like my demos and stuff

and then he brought me to meet like Donnie Einer Charlie and Will Potwin at Columbia Records. And then that was kind of the thing. And then he was like, let me make a record with this kid. And let's see what happens. And they were like, cool. Like, here's some money.

And we made it. That's crazy. But you're all in high school still. Yeah. I was a junior. What did the people in your band think? Like John? Yeah, sure.

Or any of, I mean, any of your friends. I mean, how crazy is it to be a, junior in high school and be i'm going to make an album with a major label because they went out on an audition for i don't know you know i think they thought it was cool what did you think i know i had a hard time processing all of it how do you think of it now i don't uh-huh you know i never really thought about it too much i was like cool i want to do this let's go like sure but i don't think i like ever could. And like even when I heard like my song on the radio for the first time or like

when I'd see myself in publications and stuff, it would kind of like go through me. I'd feel like I was like listening to it on a CD that I made that I burned. Like I, it never like clicked that it's like oh shit this is like. It got big. Yeah, yeah. It was obviously really

successful. You know your debut album ends up being top 10 on billboard and i mean you have a single that went gold i mean you must have gone i mean there must be just nuts to be in high school and playing it was weird sold out places and yeah who's touring with you like are you with your family i mean no it was not even 18 yet right no yeah i started touring and doing all that when i was 16 did you think about writing with other people or for other people at that time i

always kind of looked up to Billy and what he did and was like, oh, I'd like to do that eventually, because I didn't love touring. I know who Billy is, but why don't you say who Billy is? Oh, Billy, man. He's an icon, record, producer, songwriter. He's, like, done a bunch of stuff with labels and publishers as well

and is sick. Done a bunch stuff with pink. Done a bunch of stuff. When I met him, he had just done that song with you with Jessica Simpson and stuff with Celine Dion. Yeah, huge. So, I mean, you have, obviously, the song starts working, the album's working. Did you think about, did you finish high school? No.

Did you ever feel pressure to? My mom wanted me to, and I, like, attempted it, and I just couldn't. It was, like, because I was juggling all this other stuff, and then it was, like, am I really going to go home? And, like, I had to, like, do a phys ed. I needed like a phys ed credit and I needed like all this stuff basically

I took all my regents exams like all my state exams passed all of them but needed like a citizenship course and like needed to do another English course and like I just couldn't I have like pretty bad ADT and it's like I had enough hard enough of a hard time like completing tasks as is

and so to like try and do that around like waking up and like doing radio and doing this other thing and like to try and like slide and a tutor that like and tutors are like no I thought it would be like cool yeah I do the tutor for an hour and they like sign off on my shit and I'm done. No they're real teachers

no yeah they like they like try to whip you into shape especially when you're like yeah did you ever treat ADD with something other than I used to take Adderall and I

I stopped why because it was too something. I liked it. And it would help with certain tasks going to things,

but also it would get... Now I just drink a lot of coffee and that kind of can work and not work, but it was so like... I don't know, like if I play stuff that I made while I was taking out of all, it's like lots of like small little chops and well-organized drums and like...

Super meticulous. Yeah, it's whereas... Whereas I, yeah. Sounds as flowy. Yeah. Between 2006 and 2010, you know, you've released your debut album and then you start working on your next EP. But there's a lot of time between, and even then, you know, 2013 is really like the, you know, the next time I really see stuff on your, on your resume. But there's a lot of time that happens between 2006 and 2010, if not 2006 and 2013.

what happens i mean when do you move to to to l.a tell me what happens during those years i moved to l.a when i was 18 i moved back in with my dad when i was 2021 so your parents were divorced at that they'd just gotten divorced and i was kind of like i'm going to jump back in and absorb my divorced parents situation why why would you do that um i don't know it just seemed like the right thing to do and I wanted to get out of LA and I wasn't doing anything to make any money and I had some money saved but like wanted to just buy myself some time and like redirect so I moved back in with him and like set up this little studio room that I slept in and just for like seven or eight months just kind of wrote which was awesome and then I tried to move back out to L.A. and lived with a

friend for a little while and then was like in. screw this, nothing's happening out here for me, and move to New York. And I kind of started working with this producer, Mark Saunders there, who's awesome. He's mixed a bunch of stuff for, like, David Byrne and The Cure and stuff. And my manager now, Ali, was managing him and kind of, like, he had this amazing studio in New York,

and I was able to, like, use that. And then Ollie started managing me as a writer-producer, because that was kind of very much so my goal at that point was to produce and write. And then that kind of turned into me doing sessions again. And then something that I wrote with John and Julian ended up on the One Direction album, that song Little Black Dress. And that kind of like opened the door with Big Deal. Who's my publisher?

That was, I don't know. So you're going from I'm living in my parents' place You were doing some That's when a lot of the acting stuff was too That was after When you lived with your parents No no but that I lived in

The acting stuff was after Yeah I kind of moved back in to get out of Like to just be like I'm only going to write and work on music Like You're done on that I'm done Not doing any acting

Also like I don't want to go in with like these people that think I want to be an artist. Like, I don't want to be like cutting outside songs and like I don't want to be an artist right now. Or like I don't want

people to put their version of what I should be as an artist on to what like I just need time to like make shit and like play with sounds and does that change how you work with artists who are assigned? Yeah.

No, because like the big thing is when you go in as an artist, people assume you don't know how to do I mean not any of the people that I've you know we're all great this crew has been amazing but when I was an artist before so many people I should say

you go in and they're like oh you're an artist and you're coming to me so you must not know what you want or what you're doing or and some artists don't but some artists do and some artists don't but they need to figure it out

and they don't need something just like I was getting so much just like shoved down my throat because I didn't and the other thing is I didn't know what I wanted it's not like I was coming in like this is what I want but also like I knew what I didn't want and I knew what I knew what I liked and I was just kind of getting forced into these situations where I felt like I had to go along with stuff that wasn't and I just really wanted time to like get my hands dirty and like play with stuff and like figure out how to do what I want to end up doing, you know. That era in the middle of the 2000s, too, is a lot of award shows, or not award shows,

talent shows. And there's a huge push from, you know, Disney and Nickelodeon. So there are all these singers, but no artists. True. And so when you, there was this living that people were making by just being, oh, well, let's just get a song. on this album. Exactly. The album was, you know, and their albums were still selling and it just mattered to get on a singer's album. And you could just tell them what to do because most of them had just won a

talent contest. They weren't getting, they weren't getting the record deal because they were, they were writing music in their room, learning how to use the equipment and getting their hands dirty. They were getting, they wanted to get famous. Right. So that's a whole other, you know, and I think everyone mixes those. humans up. Yeah. They don't really understand that.

Right. It's kind of like, oh, kid, you want to be famous? I got a song. It's like, yeah, as opposed to like, okay,

that's like, so I always like to start in the other place. And then if it's the other kind of person, then it's like, oh, cool, we're not going to do much

anyways. So you end up doing, you write little black dress with, you know, John and Julian. Yeah. Did you call John

and say, no, I'm getting back into it? Like, we should do this? Or have you guys always kept in touch? We always kept in touch.

Like, when I was living at home with my parents, I used to go drive and visit him at Berkeley. And we'd, like, make stuff. And so he was working with Julian and Calabasas. So anytime I'd be out in L.A., I would, like, just go hang out with them and, like, make stuff. And that came out of, like, we made, like, a five song, like, Rocky P. Just for fun one week.

We were all hanging out. And it was like a lead zeppelin sounding thing. There's probably not a more fun crew to do something like that. No. There's no shortage of references and ideas and talent to say, oh, no, let's do this. And you just jump straight into it. Hour later, this vibe is incredible. We literally did it.

They were just live jams. Like, I was playing bass, John was playing guitar, Julian was playing drums. And we'd just jam until we'd have a vibe. And then we'd, like, put it down. And then we had, like, all the little vibes. And we wrote lyrics to them and melodies after. We recorded them. Are they playing a...

your current stuff at all? Did you write with them at all for that? That's just all me. Because the whole point of that for me was kind of to like make something on my own because I do so much. We'll get there because that's like obviously that's an exciting thing. This week's episode is sponsored by BMI. At BMI, music moves their world just like it moves mine.

BMI is my performing rights organization. they're the bridge between people who create music like me and the businesses that bring it to the public. They make sure I get paid when my music is streamed on apps or shows, played on radio, at live shows, or in bars, gyms, basically anywhere where music is played. And they do this for over 900,000 songwriters, composers, and music publishers, with more than 14 million songs across genres. But it's more than that. that. They help us navigate the music industry. They create opportunities for aspiring writers and composers through stages at festivals, song camps, and workshops. And they connect us with the right

people. They're also on Capitol Hill fighting for copyright protection and fair royalties. And they work hard to ensure the future of music. They have my back and they'll have yours. Learn more at BMI.com. So you sell just a shitload of records because you end up on one direction kind of like right in the prime. Yeah, that was...

And then you end up on more one direction right still in their prime. And then maybe the craziest single for stitches to work as well as it did is shocking. If nothing else, you have a kid who gets a record deal off of Vine.

Uh-huh. You have people who have cuts, but it's not loaded with like, it's not like Max Martin's on it. And it's not, you know, it's not these crazy. It's not even Julian and John at the time. You know, it's like everyone, you have cuts. But to go and be like, I'm going to have the single on a guy's debut song. Well, I know he had a song before that, but really kind of the first radio song. Exactly.

And it lived on the charts for, I believe, well over a year on some chart well over a year and on you know i tuned something like two almost two years or something like that the song it wins bMI song of the year it's over six times platinum you know number one on on top 40 adult top 40 uh and ac charts and u k singles i mean how does that song become that big have no idea. Does it make you question everything when you're like, why? Because whenever there's a hit song that I've been a part of, it's like, of course that's

how that was supposed to work. But, you know, on some level, it's like there's no, you can't predict any of it. Right. It's so unpredictable. That's the cool thing, though. That's the cool thing. It's like, it is so unpredictable. Even with like the little black dress song that ended up on the 1D thing, we weren't

like, let's write a song for 1D. And like with stitches, it's not like, let's. You know, it was me and Danny Parker started the song. And like, we were in David Silberstein's office. And I had a laptop and we like wrote the first verse and chorus and kind of like called it a day. And we're like, cool. And then showed up the next day and DJ Keri Kitas joined us Daylight. And we finished second verse and produced it out.

and finish the bridge. And then it was like, cool. You know, like another song. Like, just like the other hundred songs we wrote this year so far. Right. And then, you know, it was like, okay, well, this dude, Sean Mendez is going to have a crock at cutting it. And it's like, okay, awesome. Like, you guys do your thing.

And then I met Sean and we actually cut it. it with him and he seemed amazing um but still i wasn't like oh this is going to be the thing you know watching that song become what it did for an artist and having been an artist did it make you want to record music again as an artist or was it oh i always want to write songs with other people no it was like yay yeah this because because something like like like that and like you were saying it's not like there was like a max martin attached to it or something where it was like um it kind of like everybody who was involved with the song because we were all kind of in this place where it was like we're doing stuff but nobody's like busted out or has their you know has

their like oh you know it kind of turned into this like okay I don't know it's like there's more of like, okay, let's go to them for more songs and more stuff because we were the core of what made that song happen as opposed to like, you know, if it was like a song I wrote with Max or something and then it's like, well, da, okay, Max and then like this other, who's this other person? Is something happened around that era where I feel like that's when our whole sort of extended family in the industry all started kind of getting hit at that same time. Yeah. It's crazy that it all happens right at the same time because it's not like it really was kind of a bunch of no names, but a lot of people who were in bands together, or not together, but just a lot of people in bands. I think maybe that's why is that we all saw, we all knew what it was like to be in some project where we had to perform. So I think we all see songwriting from a, in a way, even though I think we're all pretty analytical. and it become more analytical.

I think we all joined it because we didn't want to be in bands anymore. But we could, but we didn't want it. Like, we wanted to jam out. We wanted to write from like a friend-to-friend vibe rather than from a, let's see if we can make platinum records. It was more like, let's see if we can hang out and write a song. That's cool. Yeah, it's like how long can I keep the game of like hanging out with my friends,

writing music, like going and just how. people let me do that and like that's what all I really have to do yeah that's my game today um okay so then uh more Sean Mendez and the reason why this is crazy is he's now you know arguably one of the top artists in the world and uh you guys spend so much time together I don't think people realize how much time it takes to record and write an album they just see the 10 or 12 songs on an album they don't realize

yeah you know the effort but you go and you guys write illuminate together at least the majority of the songs including there's nothing holding me back and mercy and treat you better

at this point are you guys kind of expecting songs to work or was it sort of a very irrelevant whether it worked. For me, it's always relatively irrelevant. I like it to work and I get nervous later like before they come out. But like while we're making them, yeah, I wasn't really, you know, also like we're writing them and playing them for Ziggy, the ANR and Sean's manager, Andrew.

And like, they're like, yeah, this is great. This is going to work. So I'm like, cool, you guys know, you, okay. That's what you do. Great. Yeah, that's your great. Okay, trust you. Yeah.

But I'm always kind of like, it's another song, you know. I can tell when a song is like more catchy, obviously, or like if it feels more like hooky to me or whatever. One of the worst words in the music business is hit-ish. when someone's like oh it's a little more hitish or it's like it's a smash and those two things I hate but like when you're writing all the time

there's some songs I really like this guys yeah I know I like it kind of hype that that you know you're not really the type to be like there's a smash oh yeah no

you're like I really like this but you know when you're the best is when you like it and it's also it has and it's hooky because it has to be hooky not like hitish or whatever

or smash But like the best is when it's good and makes you feel something but also has There's like that fucking earworm shit One of one of my favorite songs that was a single for The for the for music and was not really like a radio thing was when Ricky Reed released Express myself Cool I love that song not just because I love Ricky but there's something about that song that I feel like I feel like had meant something more to him.

And it was one of those moments where you start realizing that we as songwriters and as producers still want to release music that means something to us. Yeah. You know? I don't know. Tell me about that song. I know it's super random for me to bring that song. But I love that song.

That was amazing working with it. We did a bunch of days kind of around like making stuff for him. and that was something I had like started this little idea nugget which Ricky's so good at like taking like you know I'll send him all the time like little ideas and whatever and he'll kind of like turn it into something amazing

but that was one of those where it was just like this little kind of like chord progression drum loop thing and he was like that's cool we should work on it and then I don't quite remember but we did a couple days finishing it up and he kind of produced it out and it's so good

I was hanging out I don't really know but I love that as you're starting and now you start having just a bunch of releases you know just every year it's just you know just so many songs do you have any personal life at this point

yeah like were you good at at socializing I feel like when I was working most that was something I had to work to balance. I don't know. Well, for me, you know, like my idea of

having a good time in high school is like hitting up John and being like, yo, do you want to come over and make a song? Yeah. You know, so it's, in a lot of ways, like my friend group are the people that I work with. Sure. Right.

So it feels like I'm seeing my friends, like, you know, and then like, I'll get like, you know, me and Danny now, like, live near each So I'll, like, grab breakfast with him or see people for breakfast. I've been getting better. You know, it helped a lot quitting smoking weed. Because I used to stay at home and smoke all the time.

So quitting weed, you smoked a lot. Oh, yeah. You smoked a lot for a while. Yeah, I'd, like, go through, like, one of those jars I gave you, like, every day. Because you had it or because you were addicted to it? Like, or is that the same thing? Because I smoked it compulsively. Why?

Because it was great. No, I mean, I love weed. Weed's great. I can't smoke it because I smoke it compulsively. A, I have like OCD. So it just, it was like a behavioral thing and with smoking. It's like somewhat of an addiction, but maybe not quite addiction, like more compulsive. Yeah.

I think a lot of it had to do with the fact that I was like suppressing like gender identity stuff. because when I started talking to people I know and like divulging all those things, it became a lot easier to not smoke. Interesting. When did you start, tell me more about that. When did you start smoking you think to suppress certain things or do you think it was, you know?

I started smoking because it's amazing. It's really a creative thing. I mean, rubber soul. I mean, it's, that's what happens after. they started smoking weed. Don't smoke it. Yeah. No, I mean, my sister actually, she started smoking a little bit and I told her like

just be careful. Also be careful because like for me it totally like it can get out of control and it can be something that like is a limitation and is more like harmful to your life experience or like more

of a pain in the ass really than anything else. Like I used to just it was so stressful keeping the whole thing going and having to buy the weed and smoke the weed and like I couldn't sit down for more than 30 minutes

without like having to roll another joint but like it's really time consuming it gets so time consuming but probably have a lot of free time like people who can smoke like once every couple weeks or whatever and have an experience

and like do their thing like that is great it's like people who smoke cigarettes who are like oh I need to quit and I'm like well how much you smoke and they're like, I smoke when I go out on the weekends. I'm like, you don't need to quit.

They keep smoking. That's great. Like, don't feel ashamed of that. Like, you're doing great. Like, I mean, if you want to quit, that's different. But don't be like, I should quit because it's like, do you want to quit? Is it like destroying your life or is it like something that's fun that you do on the weekend with friends? It's like, don't worry about it.

Sure. Is it a vice or is it an addiction or two different things? Exactly. It's like, yeah. I used to wake up at like six in the morning to smoke cigarettes. and I would smoke until right before I went to bed I would like pound, you know, like three, four cigarettes and then again, like wake up at like four in the morning,

five in the morning, smoke. How did you sing? Did it destroy your voice? No, you just get used to it. Oh, yeah. Yeah, bodies are like awesome. So tell me more about the suppressing gender identity and getting, you know, quitting weed

and how all that rolled out for you. because, I mean, you have a unique story in this. Yeah. Well, I kind of came to a point where I was like, I tried so many times to quit. And I'd come to a place where it would be like this, okay, I don't like doing this anymore. I want to quit.

And then at some point I kind of just forget and start doing all the stuff again. And then I went to treatment. My mom, like, suggested. that I look at maybe going to treatment and I was like, okay, well, and I looked at a couple of places and ended up going to a place out here

and went into their like OCD program because I also like had a bunch of OCD behaviors that were like popping up like some whatever skin picking stuff and other stuff. So I did that and while I was there kind of was like, okay, I want to get to the bottom of why is it so hard for me to quit smoking? Like what's going on with like all this gender shit that has been like a part of my life since I was so young and I'm like not caught.

I haven't been super comfortable talking about it. I talked about it with therapists before but like never really gotten anywhere and like kind of told my parents about it. Because like I was like painting my nails and like dressing in some women's clothes and my mom was like, are you androgynous? And I was like, androgynous is like a descriptor. It's not like something that you are. Like if you think I'm endrogynous than I am. It's not like, it's like, are you attractive? It's like, I don't know, mom, do you think, what would you?

Right, it's just an adjective, it's not. Yeah. So whatever. It was kind of like. How old were you when you first realized it, whether you could verbalize it or not? Like five? Yeah. And maybe it was like not until I was like 20.

that I really like I was dating a girl who was going to NYU and like within that friend group there were people who were less kind of like I don't know if I even met anybody who was trans but at least people who were like they weren't black and white about it

yeah the gender line was blurred and it was like oh cool they're just like living that that's interesting and I kind of like learned that trans people trans people existed around that time as like a thing and that same girl like I'd talk to

I kind of would open up to like whoever I was dating about it because it would be such a part of like my personal life that anybody who I was like bringing in close enough like would kind of have to know or I'd feel like I was keeping too much from them um did you find that most people that you got close enough that you would let them in that they were you know, that they were accepting?

Yeah, they were relatively accepting. Yeah. But just like little things would then clash because, you know, like, they'd kind of sign up to be dating a man. And then it would be like, yeah, but like you're not really dating a man necessarily. Sure.

Yeah. When you go to treatment, you start talking about it, And then you explain what the next steps are. And then it becomes, you know, I mean, I would think that the songwriting community has been, like, totally accepting that you're, like, at least your friends. Oh, yeah. I feel like this is, like, the most comfortable place that you could be yourself. You know, that's kind of the whole purpose of it.

Like, most of us became musicians and songwriters because we didn't. didn't fit in normally anyway. Right. So it's like, you know, but tell me about the process of coming, of not only coming out as trans, but to go through the changes and the process and all that. Well, so basically I kind of, one of the things, there's an OCD thing that's like ruminating about being gay or like trans or whatever. Like that can be a thing that's OCD.

So basically in treatment, I ruled that out. And they were like, no, this seems like real stuff. And I was like, oh, okay. Then let me like sort this out. And I learned a lot about like how shame works and blah, blah, blah. So I was like, you know, shame thrives on secrecy. So like maybe I'll tell. Like I was really, a lot of the people I'd met more recently,

I would be more comfortable because they'd met me since like I was painting my nails. And they've met me since whatever. So like, it would be more logical. but then like my friends like John who I've known since I was 12 like that's where I felt like oh my God I like

I've known them in a different way for so long so they were like the first people that I kind of came out to and I was just like look like I've felt like I you know

me being trans might be a thing for a long time and I might actually look at like taking hormones and like seeing what the next steps would be to like explore that and I just kind of wanted to like bring you into the loop and like talk to you about it and then as soon as I did that I was like oh yeah no I'm like that's I'm gonna do it because I kind of said it and I texted them and I and I wrote up this text that was like I think I might look and they were they were very accepting and were like, like, yeah, cool. It was kind of like...

Right, exactly. Sure, yeah. Like... You know, it's almost anti-climactic whenever the rest of the world. You know, everyone has their own life going on. So they're like, oh, cool. Nice.

Yeah, exactly. And you're sitting there like brewing over and everyone... This is like, yeah. This is like, yeah. This is huge. Like, yeah. It's totally huge. But like, sure.

Yeah. Do it. Yeah. We got you back. Yeah. It's like, yeah. Yeah. So then, yeah, after that, it became like, okay. Did you find yourself, I mean, it seems relatively quick that people talk to you about being a role model for this community.

Yeah. That's a big jump from, I'm going to tell some friends, to now you're, you know, yeah, a role model, a spokesperson, you know. Wow. on some level whether I think what it is is at least for me you know

like there there were people that have come out and you know like like Hari Neff or Teddy I've always never know how to say her

freaking last name but I like her her name's Teddy Okay Quinn Quinn Quinn Levin Quinn Quinn I don't know

Yeah but her um you know and just Just like seeing people come out and be accepted is huge. And I think, and it was huge for me. And so I think even just the act of me coming out and being accepted by the community that I'm in

and continuing to work with all these people and feeling like I can be a person and kind of let all this, that's been a part of me, like, put it out there. I think even just that can be inspiring to people. Not even that I have to do much. It's like just doing that I think is... Absolutely. Because I'm not much of a... I don't know.

I don't like attention. It's amazing how much irony is in that, considering... I think people would be surprised how many artists... Artists in the broader sense, but certainly musician artists, don't really like attention they like writing music and they want the world to hear the music

because they like the music but it's not about it's not really about the attention oh totally it's so hard to explain that to people that song writers and artists aren't always even if they're on stage

being loud and jumping around and dancing and stuff when you're with those people off stage a lot of them are reclusive or they're quiet not because you know maybe they go on stage because of anxiety and they actually like being in front of people because they're

they need it to help with anxiety it's like the opposite of what you think the purpose is you know sure um that said so you know right during all this you work on the Sean Mendes album self-titled which you end up with 11 songs on it including in my blood which is my

wife's favorite song. We listen to that a lot. Album debuts, number one. You end up continuing on this Sean Mendez train. Because this, you end up with more involved with Sean on this, and it's

the first album that really comes out with you being yourself as a human. did do you think that's why it's so successful do you think like you're sort of I mean obviously Sean is successful artist but do you feel like you were able to be different as a as a artist as a producer as a writer

well no I think it's a lot of it is successful because of how Sean works and how hard he works I definitely would not have been able to do the work that I did had I been had I done it two years ago not even just

just because like there was so much going on with me personally so much smoking so much this and that like I literally wouldn't have been able to sit in the chair and produce everything that I did so like just being more focused being more you know everything um

allowed me to do it because it ended up being a lot of work it's the only record that I've ever or like produce, you know, I did, I didn't do every song, but I did all except for like two or three on there production, which is the most they've done, even just in a year on other stuff. You know, the year before I did like four of the songs on Illuminate that I produced and then, you know, maybe did like two other things that kind of just happened to work out from like demos the day of. But it was the first time I was like, okay,

I have to get whatever like 14, 15 songs done. How do you feel about being the, you know, it's a different sort of pressure being the main kind of producer of something. Yeah. Did you enjoy it? Yeah, I love it. I love doing production stuff and like that's like what that's kind of always been the goal. Sure.

And like I love writing and stuff too, but I love I love sounds. I love playing with sounds. I love like Scott Harris, who we'll get to later. I love Scott. What was that? I love Scott. Yeah. Your main co-writer with Sean.

Yeah. You know, if not even outside of that. But, you know, Scott showed me, he didn't show me. He was telling me about the voice notes that Sean sends. Oh, yeah. And how he's gotten, he's at the point. his life where he's so creative because he's just like cells are splitting still. Yeah.

And that it's just like it's almost hard to keep up with good ideas. Tell me about working with Sean Mendez. Dude. Okay. I don't know. He's so fucking talented is kind of where to start. It's like he picks things up so fast. He's super creative.

It's like, you know, when I met him, he had just learned. to play the guitar like a few months before and now this isn't even like that many years later and like he's playing on every single record and like I don't know you know like he'll pick up he picked up the drums while we were working on this last record and like a few days and like and and and the other thing about him is he really knows like what he wants things to sound like and I'm working with him it's like he like feels it or

or not kind of you know and and he'll know when things don't feel right and he knows how to like make suggestions to get it where it's feeling right which like makes my job a lot easier too because it's not like

I can do what I'm doing when you were in L.A. as an artist where you were like not totally sure what you didn't want or be what you liked and it's different than somebody who's able to communicate. communicate that.

Right. And then I can do what I do. And then, you know, he'll light up at one thing and it'll be like, oh, cool. Like, let's go over there. And then he does something. And it's like, okay, amazing. Yeah. Like, put that down in it.

I don't know. It just feel the energy with him feels so good. And like he's so legit and just like knows. I don't know. It just feels good. It feels like it's the right thing. I want to go to the next segment. but before that, you know, just

your year so far not only that, but to work with Leon Bridges, who's amazing and this five seconds of summer album is totally legit. You know, stuff on a lot of these things. Christina Aguilera. Really impressive

how many songs you have out as a co-writer, but I really want to get, I really want to hear about your project. Okay. Tell me about it. Well, what do you want to know? I mean, what's it like to...

I've been working on a project for a long time where it's really important that I have... that I write 100% of the lyrics and melodies. Okay. For me, this was like the first time where I can be like, okay, this is what I sound like is me. Yes. I'm not a very good producer,

and I happen to work with Ricky Reed, who's an icon. Yeah. So, you know, to he allows me to be the writer I want to be in this format and it's it's incredible to have that but to me what matter I just wanted to have something that as a lyricist and as a melody writer this is mine yeah something that I'm willing to slave over to show this is this is what I want yeah you know what I want to be um so that really that's really sort of the point of what you're doing yeah you said it you know and

I don't know. I mean, we don't really get that many shots at it unless we take them. You know what I mean? Nobody's offering it. Yeah.

You have to do it. And that's like a... It takes time. It takes a risk and it's vulnerable. Right. And especially when you don't really want the bandifying glass on you,

but you just want to set the record straight in a way. Totally. Yeah. Because, yeah, because we're involved in so many different things. And then it's like... But when I'm kind of left alone in a room,

like this is what I yeah like you want people to know what you sound like and I don't know why I just do like I'm because like the sounds I like and they're like what I like I like to make it and hear it and I don't know I just want people to hear it why did you start doing it I mean when in the middle of you're doing all these records and you're going to go take time away oh a lot of it's old oh really mm-hmm I kind of made it the some of them are like from 2011. They're like all demos that I've had sitting around and a couple things that I did

over the past two, three years. Doesn't it make you want to follow it up with sort of what you would sound like now? Exactly. Yeah. But a lot of it is kind of. So what I did was I took them. And when I was done with the Sean album,

I kind of took some time off to like recuperate and just take some time off and not make stuff. but then I ended up making, basically, I had these demos in a folder that I was like, oh, all these would sound good together. And I kind of just found all the different sessions and opened them up and, like, replaced a bunch of the drums with, like, sounds that I would use now and, like, cut guitars on them. So they all kind of have similar, like, pallet of guitar stuff throughout.

And I put some piano on them. And one I completely, like, redid and just kept the vocals and finished it, like, an out. Because after I'd done the Sean thing, I was like, oh, cool, like, making an album, like, think about it like this or whatever. And I kind of did the same thing with those demos and finished it up. And yeah, now, and I also imagine like, oh, cool, like, if I can do something with this, then that'll create more of an opportunity for me to have more time to do more. Because things do get busy. But, like, if I have, like, stuff out and there's, like, I can, like, generate something with that, then, like, that can create more. That can create more time for me.

The same way, like, by writing songs for other people, I've been able to create more time for me to write songs for other people. Yeah, they all feed each other. Yeah. I think what's cool is when you really write music for yourself, that there isn't a time limit on it because no one else was releasing it. So if you were, you know, if you look at a song from 2011 or a song from now, and it's really you, and then it was never dated because,

no one else releases your music. Does that make sense? I know that's kind of weird, but... But it would be cool to have somebody be like, here's a chunk of money and make your record. Yeah. Okay, cool, because then it would be nice to like be obligated to make my own music. Do you think that's what this is going to lead towards?

I don't know. Yeah. That'd be cool, though. I'll sign you. Sick. To deal. All right, this next segment, I'm going to list five people. Just tell me the first thing that comes off the top of your head.

We already did Sean pretty much. Okay. But he's on the list, so I'll give you another crack at it. Sean Mendez. Genius. Casey Robinson. Oh, just the best. Everybody, I know.

I know because of Casey. I love that you mention Silberstein and Casey because, you know, they're both producers of the podcast. Yeah. And they're both longtime friends of ours. Yeah. And they do their job as well as anybody on the planet. It's amazing. You know?

I've never, yeah. I always tell people with this, but you know Casey and I were on the same floor freshman year of college. Yes. That's amazing. It's my favorite tidbit about Casey. I can see it all the time. Yeah.

You know what I mean? Yes. Long before whatever has gone on since. Let's go with Ricky Reed. Ricky Reed, again, I just genius, but also like, oh, I love him. Just everything. He's so good. And so, like, he's such a good listener and also so focused.

And, like, I don't know. Like, he more than anybody else can, like, consistently. Just put together, like, amazing pop. It's like, you just go in day, six hours later. Like, this is going to be on the radio. Like, just consistently, like, every day, like, and how. And, like, it's so good with, like, a group of people where, like, everybody's doing little things and he'll hear somebody in the back of the room who, like,

he'll be like that, you know? And, like, you didn't even think he was paying attention. You thought he was into what he's doing, which he was, but he's also kind of like the ambient noise in the room. Like if something happens, like he's so good at just pulling these things. And I don't know. He's just really good. We're in the mix phase of what we've been working on. And his meticulous nature when it comes to mixes is something I've never seen in 20 years of being in L.A.

I've never seen anything like that. It's shocking. John Ryan. John Ryan, best friend. Also, genius, amazing. Oh, what about John has such good energy? John, okay, like, when we were in, we did the Jamaica camp,

and like the whole camp, the whatever, what was it, BMG and Big Deal had the camp at G-Jam. and like the end of the last night of that camp was basically everybody in John's room all making like this one like amazing thing that John was kind of like champion like just like the leader of this like there were maybe like 30 people

in this like one little studio room all making this thing and just he has that sort of energy that like makes that happen like everybody wants to be in that room and making whatever kind of he's working on because he just does this cool I don't know. It's a great song and like just yeah amazing. Scott Harris.

Scott Harris. He, I mean everybody's a genius. Yeah, these are like really some top of the line town. Yeah. Scott is so good at so many things. But like I always think of Scott as being so amazing at the lyrics and so amazing at like tying a lyric together and like finding the heart of a lyric and just pulling that whole thing together. And he does that so well with Sean and is like such a, I don't know, he's just so good at that. And then he's also really good at like his guitar stuff is amazing.

Like when we were doing Treat You Better, he was playing. It was kind of this thing. And at the last minute, he just kind of played the main riff. And it was like this very simple, it had taken so many forms. But he's just, I don't know. And like, it's like when I hear the don't let me down song. like I can just so hear him in that

I don't know he has like a very special thing and I've known him I've known him that sounds bad I've known him for so long we toured together when I was 17

oh that's right in his bag right yeah yeah oh crazy yeah we like toured together for a few months which is crazy I love that

Um, you know what, I'm doing seven. I don't care. Okay. People can turn it off. Whatever. Screw you guys. Julian Benetta. Julian Beneta.

Okay. Again, Gene. Now I have to say it for everyone because they are. It's just all part of the same group, but, you know, they each have their own lane for you. Like, you have a publishing deal through the Benetas. Yeah. You know, you were in high school with John. You toured with Scott.

You do music with Ricky. You know, Casey's your publisher. Even though you guys are friends, these people are career collaborators. Which is why it feels weird not to give you a chance to say something about them. Totally. Just because they're all part of the same group. You have individual relationships with all of them. Yeah.

You know? So, Julian. So Julian. Julian is, there is one. we were okay so we gave each other all names and John was the hammer I was Pussy Ninja

and Julian was constant gardener and so but that I always think about that because he's so like he's so good at starting an idea and then like refining it and like getting to the heart of what it is

and then like refining it and tweaking this thing and tweaking that thing and bringing you know, ooh, like this person would be really good to like bring into what this idea is. And like, you know, it's so cool. We do, he does the, the Benettas do the camp, the Palm Springs camp every year. And he's like the perfect person to have at a camp like that because he's so good at just going from room to room and like just kind of like gardening all of these different ideas and like bringing people together and mashing them together. And then obviously as a producer, he's just like amazing and his sounds are amazing.

And like, he just makes things sound so good. But also just his approach to like working on stuff and his vision for songs and like his feel for that and his ability to like work with other people. And kind of like, I don't know, just like craft something is like really good and bring people into stuff at the right time. And like he's awesome. Your manager, Ollie. Last one. He's the best. Okay.

I wouldn't be doing anything if it weren't for Ollie. When I met Ollie, we started like, it's hard to say because we have such like a good management partnership and I'd like met with a lot of managers and whatever. And then we started talking and he just like got what I wanted to do and was able to like take, like apply strategy to that. and like work with me to like really do the sorts of things I wanted to do. And like he's just like moving through everything. He's, I don't know, he just like gets it and is able to kind of put one and two together. And I feel like I can tell him anything.

And like he's always like I can kind of just like vent and tell him everything and everything about how I feel and where I want to be and what I want to do and not be afraid that he's going to be like, oh, bitch, you're crazy. Like it all kind of is like He's like okay and like processes it And then really just like helps me Figure it out Figure out like okay how am I gonna plan for like five years down the road Because I'm so not that kind of person I'm very lucky to have somebody like him

He's the shit Well Teddy Geiger Thank you for doing this podcast Thank you for being my friend Thank you for having me and being my friend You're doing something that is absolutely for a songwriter, just the absolute dream where you can both write

and help define one of the world's biggest pop stars with them and continue to do that and then also be able to do so many different types of music. You know, and to work with your friends, and your friends still working with you, it all says the kind of human you are that people have stuck with you through high school all the way to now.

I don't know that many people who can say they collaborated with people from that far back and currently are still making music with them and progressive music and worldwide music. I just can't applaud you enough for that and thank you for, again for doing this.

Thank you. You are awesome. I feel so good about myself now. Good, let's write a song. Okay. Okay. You get it. Thanks for listening to this episode of And The Writer Is.

If you want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed, be sure to check out our Spotify playlist or visit our website at and the writer is.com. And The Writer Is is produced by Joe London, edited by Miles Bergsma, and published by Big Deal music. A special thanks to David Silberstein from Mega House Music and Michael White. Until next time, this is Ross Golden.